Shakira's Legacy and Rock Hall

I have to admit that he annoyed me. At first like really annoyed me. Then I got over it and I made my peace with him and I mostly managed to ignore him. Uh then I got his album and I unexpectedly totally loved it, and I still do, and so now I love him and I even love it. when he annoys me. Because he still kinda annoys me sometimes. I have to admit. Summing my pay with his fingers. Singin' my live with his word. Time. What is Wyclef Jean bringing to the table here? Precisely. I wondered that at first. Here we have superstar South Orange New Jersey hip hop trio Fuji's, with their transcendent and only slightly annoying to me at first cover. Of Killing Me Softly with his song off their blockbuster nineteen ninety six album, The Score. The Fujis consist of Praz Michelle, who is currently inaudible, Ms. Lauren Hill, who is currently singing transcendently, and Y Clef John, who is currently going One time, two times in the background, and really annoying me at first. Killing Me Softly with his song, made famous by Roberta Flack in nineteen seventy three, and first released by Lori Lieberman in nineteen seventy two. Lori is also a co-writer. She was inspired after seeing Don McClain. in concert. I didn't know that. Don McLean, the American Pie guy. If you ever want to be killed not so softly with a song, listen to somebody attempt American pie at karaoke, or even worse, attempt to sing it yourself. Way too many verses. American pie is forty five minutes long, and it will not softly kill you the whole time. Despite Wyclef Jean's undeniable essential role in the Fuji's as rapper, lead singer, co-producer, co-writer, co-founder, and so forth, I primarily experienced him at first as the dude tossing in annoying extraneous ad libs as Lauren Hill sang transcendently. Ready or not, you're not home, you can't hide. Gonna find you and take it slowly. That's another big hit off the score called Ready or Not, featuring objectively the coolest Enya sample. Of all time, no offense to Lil B. And of course, with the fullness of time, I've come to respect. To appreciate I've come to cherish all the ad libs. On the score, all the crosstalk. The relentless interweaving of voices, the elegant chaos, the magnificent camaraderie between Wycliffe, Lauren, and Praz as they hype each other up and whatnot. I cherish the Fuji's camaraderie because it won't last for very long. And in the fullness of time, I especially come to appreciate Wyclef Jean's casually, absurdly charming rapport with everybody, including himself. I dig it on the Fuji song Manifest, when Wyclef starts rapping too intensely and he tells himself to calm down. Give me a clue who can do this the you the kid on the block who make less money than you can More rappers should tell themselves to calm down more often. I made my peace with Yyclef on the score, with Wyclef constantly charmingly inserting himself into the non-Yclef focused parts of Fuji's songs. But I truly fell in love with him when I was watching MTV. and an unsavoury hour. And I caught the video for a solo Y Clef song called Anything Can Happen, where he tells us to make room five times in the first ten seconds. I got sculpt in my face. I got screen to my face. Yo make room, make room. Make it room happen. Make room. Make room. We can't stop shining. Here we have Anything Can Happen from Wyclef Jean's first solo album released in 1997 and called The Carnival. Or I guess technically it's called Why Clef Jean Presents the Carnival featuring refugee all stars, but I'm not gonna say all that again. And I have to admit that those first ten seconds annoyed me at first. The barrage of ad libs and catchphrases and demands. Stop telling me to make room, Wyclef Jean. I am not in your way. I am not trying to stop the shining. But within three minutes I loved this song, anything can happen, and I still do. The deft rascally little horn riff, the insucient bounce, and Wyclef tossing out a new catchphrase every 10 seconds or so. Sitting there watching MTV at an unsavory hour. I thought every man got disciples was quite profound. I really dug the roller skating heavy anything can happen video as well. Which seemed to indicate that Wyclef John was a great hang. a gracious party host, a skilled mingler, a consummate entertainer capable of working up some magnificent camaraderie with everyone. I watch Wyclef gracefully roller skating around, and I can't help but think that he and I would really get along. Toward the end of this song, he asks a bunch of questions, and whether it's 1997 or 2026, the answers here remain no and hell no. Well, the Knicks win the championship. Say what, say what, anything can happen when we find some peace of mind this year. Say what, say what, anything can happen. My apologies to both Knicks fans and anybody seeking some peace of mind. So I catch anything can happen at random on MTV, and then I rush out to Best Buy to pick up why Clef John's 1997 debut solo album, The Carnival, and I flip out some more. In terms of Fuji's solo albums. Look, I won't tell you that the carnival is better than the miseducation of Warren Hill, because that would be insane. But I will say that I prefer the carnival to the actual big Fuji's album to the score, which is also insane, but at least it's true. Yeah. It's time that I confess to all the girls. Don't do it, don't do it. To all the girls I love before. That's the first twelve seconds of Wyclef's version of To All the Girls. Shout Julio Iglesias and Willie Nelson. I love the don't do it, don't do it. I love it that Wyclef's still trying to convince himself to calm down, and it still ain't working. Now I'm a hundred percent invested in all his crosstalk and catchphrases and demands. Here's a song called Year of the Dragon, featuring Ms. Lauren Hill, where Wycliffe demands that we lock our doors six times in ten seconds. At least this time it's pretty good advice. Yes, yes. Dawg. Yo. Lock your door. And what I come to appreciate in Wyclef is the casual way he can make a hook out of anything. Even the throat clearing first thirty to sixty seconds of his songs are full of tossed off earworm type delights that still rattle around in my head sometimes. Which of course means that when he finally tries to deliver a straightforward monster hook filled chorus. on a relatively straightforward monster pop song, it turns out he's ridiculously good at it. That's gone till November, that's the song off the carnival that still especially kills me softly. No, my favorite part of this song now is when Yclef stops preaching about safe sex long enough to insult various unnamed sucker MCs. Tell my cousin Jeff where his condom if you don't wear condom, you see a red arm. You sucker MCs you got no flow. I heard you style. There's me at Target buying cat litter singing Whoa Use OMs as you got no flow. Also, I thought Wyclef was saying if you don't wear condom, you see a red line. There he is not. He's not saying red line, wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then. For our purposes today, however, the most important song on the carnival is Wyclef's version of the now nearly century old Cuban anthem Guantanamera, in which Wyclef meets cute. With a nice young lady, despite its significance. Language barrier. Do you speak English? Can I buy you a drink? So the nice young lady sings, I am a sincere woman from where the palm trees grow. Lyrics from the canonical version of Guantanamera, basically. And meanwhile, Yclef. Uh well Wyclef's doing the best he can. Though I'm pretty sure Wyclef John is only pretending there's a language barrier. Wycleff was born in Haiti, and back in 2016 he did a viral sway in the morning freestyle, where he rapped fluently in English, Creole, German, Japanese, and Spanish. I love the carnival. Its vivacity, its density, its silliness, even amidst its self-seriousness. The carnival is out in 1997. The Miseducation of Lauren Hill is out in 1998. The third Fuji's album is out never, I think it's safe to say, for various personal and legal type reasons. Uh, but that's all right, because Wyclef is a quintuple threat rapper, singer, producer, guitar player, hook provider. Who plays well with various others. Here's why Clef on the 1997 Destiny's Child song No No No Part Two, helpfully repeatedly announcing that it's the remix. Radio's play to This is the physics on the Very helpful. Wyclef's got great rapport with Destiny's Child, though in the late 90s and early 2000s, Wyclef quickly establishes that he's got great rapport with pretty much anybody, and on a flamboyantly international scale. Wycleff works with Cuban American pop crossover legend Gloria Estefan. He works with beloved hot pink Harlem rap ambassador Camron. He works with Puerto Rican reggaeton Titan Ivy Queen. He works with extra loquacious Jamaican American battle rapper cannabis. He works with Senegalese superstar Yousendor. He works with Hong Kong American rapper Jin. He works with Ziggy Marley in the Melody Makers, who are primarily, if not entirely, Jamaican. He works with Bono, Who is Irish. Uh, Wyclef remixes another one bites the dust. A song by noted English rock band Queen. I didn't know he did that, and I don't need to hear that. Necessarily, and I don't need to hear that Bono song again either. But nonetheless. The turn of the century is a golden era for delightfully chaotic boundary crossing pop superstar team ups. And if Wycleft John's voice Is the first voice you hear, you are guaranteed to tremendously enjoy yourself andor sell a whole shitload of records. Observe ladies and gents, turn on the sound system to the sound of Carlos Santa. Get away. Yes, indeed. Here we have Wyclef Jean, a young American self-styled ghetto blues duo called The Product GB, and Mexican American rock and roll hall of fame guitar god Carlos Santana, joining forces on the number one pop hit Maria Maria, from the ludicrous Blockbuster 1997 Santana Comeback album. Supernatural, which let me check here. Yeah, as of today, Supernatural has won one hundred and ninety-five Grammys and sold nine hundred million copies. Probably will be up to 200 Grammys won and one billion copies sold. By the time you hear this. Maria Maria is the most streamed song on the Supernatural album. Now, Maria Maria has more Spotify streams than Smooth, the Santana and Rob Thomas number one pop hit. of some renown. In the year two thousand, Wycleft follows that up with his second solo album, which is called Brace Yourself for This, The Ecleftic. Two sides to a book, which is styled the eclections. Numeral two sides, Roman numeral two, a book. Wyclef's got a bunch of new friends now. Hey, look who it is. You got no window. Yeah, yeah, no when the fold. DJs, DJ No When to Walk. No When to Run. It's Kenny Rogers. Rest in peace. Here we have Wyclef tossing in charming semi intrusive ad lib like hip hop and DJs and Soundboy, alongside extra smooth. Houston born country legend Kenny Rogers, an extra loquacious Queen's rap legend, Faromanch, on a song literally called Kenny Rogers Faro Manch Dub Plate. Hey, look who else it is. If tomorrow is judgment day! Night is in the air. Yeah, I'm standing on the fun line! Hey! And the Lord asked me what I did with my life. I would say Wac murder sound It's Whitney Houston. Rest in peace. It's a short ecleptic track called Whitney Houston Dub Plate, an a cappella rework of nineteen ninety eight's top five Whitney Houston hit, My Love is Your Love, written and produced by Wyclef and his cousin Jerry Wanda Duplessis. Jerry Wonder, the Fuji's bassist and producer, and frequent Yclef co-conspirator. The Ecleftic album also features contributions from Earth, Wind and Fire, and Mary J. Blige, and The Rock. Back when The Rock was a huge wrestling star. but not yet a huge movie star. Listen, it is a new millennium. The world is shrinking, thanks in part to the Internet, an unalloyed force for good in the world now and forever. Various spheres of global pop superstardom are frequently intersecting and blending and mutating. With so many international pop crossover events, that the very notion of a pop crossover is growing increasingly, if not yet entirely, obsolete. And Yclef Jean is a multi-lingual, multi-hyphenate proven pop hitmaker who can pop up anywhere and hang out with anyone and yell all sorts of random. dumb, initially annoying, but ultimately weirdly, absolutely essential shit on gargantuan hit pop songs. And so there was simply nobody else on earth in two thousand six who could have delivered this simple Timeless and yes, absolutely necessary two word message. No fightin'. Babies up in here tonight. No fighting. We got the recent. No fighting. No fighting. Shakira Shakira My name is Rob Harvilla. This is the 45th episode of 60 Songs That Explain the 90s, Cole in the 2000s, and this week we are discussing Hips Don't Lie. By Shira, featuring Wyclef John, a bonus track on the 2006 reissue of Shakira's two thousand five album Oral Fixation Volume Two. Shakira will sing the chorus now. Why Clef is still chanting no fightin' as Shekira starts the chorus. Incredible dedication. from that guy. Hips Don't Lie is the best pop song in history to rhyme tension and perfection. I checked. Ad break, one time. Alright, on april eleventh, two thousand two, Shakira appeared on the cover of Rolling Stone magazine with the cover line, How a Catholic School Girl Seduced America. It was the cool issue of Rolling Stone, featuring a list of the 50 coolest albums. Of all time. The coolest album of all time is apparently White Light, White Heat. by the Velvet Underground, and the fiftieth coolest album of all time is You Can Dance. By Madonna, her nineteen eighty seven remix album. I'm pretty sure Madonna by herself has fifty albums cooler than you can dance, but they're the experts. The first paragraph of Shakira's Rolling Stone cover story reads as follows. Quote. Shakiro was about twelve. Living in her hometown, an industrial backwater port city in Colombia called Barranquilla, when she started to feel strange sensations inside her body. The feeling was somewhere in her gut, and she experienced it every time she heard the guitar solo in guess the song Shakira's talking about here. She told her mother, Mom, I feel something so overwhelming every time I listen to that guitar solo. Shekira's mother didn't know what to say. The girl began listening to the song over and over, just so she could be touched again in that special way. By that mysterious guitar. I still feel it, Shakira says now, rolling her eyes back and humming the riff. That's how I discovered there was something in the electric guitar that was really powerful. End quote. Did you guess this song with a guitar solo that changed Shakira's life when she was twelve years old? Great job if you did. I would not have guessed this. Tresh mode. Enjoy the silence from their 1990 album Violator. Phenomenal choice. Twelve year old Shakira has got exquisite taste in life-changing pop songs with overwhelming mysterious electric guitar. The hypnotic simplicity and the legitimate spiritual profundity. of that guitar riff. Doo doo doo doo doo doo. That melody feels like an ancient universal omni denominational prayer. It feels older and wiser than the earth itself. The enjoy the silence video. Also, Dave Gunn of De Peshmo dressed as a king with a robe and a crown, carrying a chair and hiking through various breathtaking natural solitary vistas, mountains and beaches, and gorgeous sunsets amidst rad trees and whatnot. And occasionally King Dave just plops the chair down. It has a good sit. The Enjoy the Silence video has potential life-changing properties as well. You might achieve a oneness with the earth. You might convince yourself that the earth was created specifically to achieve a oneness. With you. That angelic chanting vocal riff as well. Enjoy the silence will convince you that God is real, even if Catholic school didn't. That's late in the video. Uh King Dave's hiking up a snowy mountain peak. Uh fun fact, here's a no longer 12-year-old Shekira on that exact same snowy mountain peak. in two thousand one. To be together New York here Did you know on that last line she's singing there over, here under? There over one word, here under one word. I dig pop songs that invent their own vocabulary. That's not the same mountain. Obviously, that's a mountain on a computer. That's a mountain on a 2001 computer. This, of course, is Shekira's 2001 English language breakout smash hit whenever wherever, the flute riff that triumphantly concludes each triumphant chorus. I believe that's a Cana flute, the traditional flute of the Andes Mountains in South America. This flute riff radiates an ancient, universal, omni denominational, prayerful, depeche mode type quality. Does it not? I dig the Andean flute, man. Shekira Isabel Mibara Rapol is born in Barranquilla, Colombia, on the northern Caribbean coast of Colombia in 1977 to parents of Lebanese and Spanish descent. Via her Lebanese heritage on her dad's side, Shakira got into belly dancing. As indicated on the cover of Rolling Stone, she went to Catholic school. Where she tried out for the school choir in the second grade, but her music teacher thought Shakira's vibrato was too strong, and the other kids thought Shakira sounded like a goat. That's rude. Undeterred, Shikira got a guitar from her aunt and wrote her first song when she was eight years old. She wrote a song called Gafas Ascuras, Dark Glasses. It was about her dad, who wore sunglasses to mask his grief after his son was killed in a car accident. Shakira says her very first memory was when she was two years old and she heard that her half brother had been killed. From the onset, we are dealing with a very intense, a very deep thinking and deep feeling person. That very first song appears on Shekira's first album, released in 1991, the year she turns 14. It is called Mahiya Magic, and it is the first of two early Shakira albums that she more or less no longer acknowledges. They made a video for the song Mahi, though. S And so here we have teenage Shekira pinning up her voluminous hair in her teenager type bedroom while singing Magic, I feel magic. Lately something new is born in me. For the most part we got maximum late eighties, early nineties teen pop balladry here. A little Debbie Gibson, a little Taylor Dane, a little Selena. The Mahia album sells around a thousand copies in Colombia. That's not good. Other than the occasional YouTube bootleg, this record ain't streaming. You'll live. Same deal, uh quite low sales back then, not officially streaming now, Wishekira's second album, released in 1993 and called Peligro. Danger. That's the song Polygro, and it's a great deal rowdier and stormier and clankier. And Shikira just sang, I don't know how something can be so beautiful, a thunderbolt so thrilling in my sky. And I feel afraid that this is your love. Danger, danger. It's quite early days here, and the true canonical Shakira discography is not really even begun yet, but something to maybe start thinking about is what Shakira's vocals and lyrics lose and or gain when translated from Spanish into English. Shakira won't be singing in English and thus crossing over for a while yet. She doesn't really speak English yet, but even his collections of syllables, even his hyper charismatic barrages of crunchy, growling consonants and howling triumphant nasal vowels, Shakira in Spanish and Shikira in English are two complementary, but emphatically distinct experiences. But first we gotta start letting this lady rock out a little bit. I seem to recall something about this lady being transformatively overwhelmed by the mysterious power of electric guitars. Here we have Pierce Descalzos Suenos Blancos. Barefeet blank dreams, or I guess technically it's white dreams, though blank dreams is way better, right? From Shekira's third album, released in nineteen ninety five and called simply PS Descalzos. That's the chorus of that song, a chorus that goes You belonged to an ancient race of bare feet and blank dreams. You were dust and Dust you are. Think that iron is always soft. when heeded. The translations might go better if I do them first. Uh, let's try that. Hit the deck. Shakir's about to sing You bit the apple and renounced paradise, and condemned a snake, being you who wanted it that way. And then for millennia and millennia, you ran naked and faced dinosaurs under a roof and without a shield. The Dinosaur's part might not be strictly historically accurate, but I'm really into how Shakira sings the word. Dinosauros de la manzana renunciada para serpiente siendo silencio for millennials milenios permanentes nubos tempentas It would appear that Pies Descalzos Suenios Blancos is a song about conformity and rebellion in mankind's broad tendency toward conformity over rebellion, ever since Adam and Eve bit into an apple from the tree of knowledge and got kicked out of the Garden of Eden, etc. Plus dinosaurs. Dinosaurus. A tremendously catchy and only slightly rowdy mid nineties alternative rock song, with a provocative, deep thinking, historical sweep and explicit biblical overtones. Also, if you're watching the video, if you're watching Shakira in sort of jovial goth mode, writhing around with long jet black hair and a heavily stylized hyper color saturated mid-90s alt rock video environments. She's surrounded by people stuck in the ground up to their waists, their feet are pointing straight up, and their heads are literally buried in the sand. Right? If you're like me, you see all this charismatically brazen imagery and you go, oh right, Alanis Moore is said. Alanis also being a pretty big deal in 1995, if I recall correctly. There's a ton of harmony between Alanis and Shekira vocally as well. The swooping bombast, the undaunted flamboyance of their voices. and the undaunted flamboyance of their songwriting, whether they are excoriating some chump ex boyfriend, or contemplating the physical state of the world. in a thank you, India, thank you, terror, thank you, disillusionment sort of way. The Piaz Descalzo's record blows up. It sells five million copies worldwide, including eventually one million copies sold in America. Any language barriers notwithstanding. This album reframes both Shekira within the context of Latin pop. She's way more of a boundary pushing rocker now, and it helps reframe Latin pop globally. It demonstrates the exponentially growing popularity of Latin pop globally. Shakira is an all universe pop star from now on. You hear her voice and you just know it, even if you can't articulate why you know it. This song is called Antolohia anthology, and the chorus begins as follows And I learned to take the seconds out of time. You made me see the sky even deeper. With you, I think I gained more than three kilos. With the many sweet kisses you bestowed. That last line about the sweet kisses. Yeah, that's very pretty, but contus tantos dulces besos repartidos is a much, much prettier way to say it. Y aprende a quitarle al tiempo los segundos Me hiciste ver el cielo más profundo Un platillo que aumenten las de 3 kilos Con tus tantos dulces de esos repartidos The line with you I think I gained more than three kilos is also quite romantic in any language. All right, second half of the chorus. You developed my sense of smell, and because of you, I learned to like cats. You detached my shoes from the concrete, so we could both escape. Flying for a while. I think we can agree that Los Gatos is a much, much, much prettier word for cats. Zapatos is a much much prettier word for shoes. While we're at it. In 1998, Shekira releases her fourth album called Donde están los ladrones, Where are the thieves? This is a phrase with both fraught personal resonance for Shakira. In the run-up to this album, her notebook of lyrics get stolen at the airport. And also, you know, we got plenty of thieves in society, politicians and so forth. Perhaps a few thieves of Shakira's heart. As well. The first song here is called Siega Sordomuda, which is an awfully lovely and sonorous way to say blind, deaf, and mute. Chorus. Stupid, blind, deaf mute, clumsy, useless, and stubborn. It's all that I've been because of you I've turned into something that does nothing but love you. I think of you day and night, and I don't know how to forget you. I wouldn't say Shakira sounds particularly psyched. about any of that. She hates to bug you in the middle of dinner. Dig the video for Siego Sordomuda in which Shekira and her band get arrested by cartoonishly bumbling slash menacing cops because Shekira is a bold swaggering boundary pushing rocker. now, though she can still belt the bejesus out of a ballad like nobody's business. This song is just called two, as in you. And hey, let's mix it up and not do a translation this time. Maybe the translations are extraneous. You get it. Shekira gets her damn point across, simply with the wine dark sea depth. And the distinctly share esque, extravagant vehement. of her voice Porque son la fe con que vivo, la potencia de mi voz, los pies tan que camino eres tú. See Yeah, wow, by the late nineties, Shakira is a huge pop star in a Colombian national treasure. In nineteen ninety nine fellow Colombian National Treasure and Nobel Prize winner and all universe superstar novelist Gabriel Garcia Marquez. Paragon of magical realism, an author of A Hundred Years of Solitude and Love in the Time of Cholera, et cetera. In nineteen ninety nine, he writes a profile of Shikira for a Colombian magazine. And as repeated later in Rolling Stone, Gabrielle writes, quote, no one of any age can sing or dance with the innocent sensuality Shakira seems to have invented. End quote. As always, and God bless him for this, truly, Gabriel Garcia Marquez, Horny on Maid. Right? He also writes, quote, with the face of a perfect young girl in her deceptive frailty, she always had the absolute cernity she would be a public personality of world renown. She did not know in what art or in what manner But she did not have a shadow of a doubt, as if she were condemned to a prophecy. End quote. Global twenty first century pop stardom as a prophecy, but also a sort of condemnation. That's prophetic all on its own. Uh, Shakira and Gabrielle end up being good friends and it's super sweet. Those two are your best case scenario for national treasures, I think. Uh real quick, in the year 2000, Shakira does MTV Unplugged. And I gotta say that the unplugged Turbo mariachi version of that song, siega Sortomuda, will knock you right on your ass. This is rad as hell. I'm gonna flag the word pantalones here and let you process the rest on your own time. Porque estimor ya no es bien Okay, guess what? It is time for Blockbuster Colombian pop star Shakira to cross over. in the somewhat dorky parlance of our time. You may recall the quote unquote Latin explosion in the United States pop music mainstream in the late nineties, led by Ricky Martin and Mark Anthony, both huge stars already, now singing in English, and Jennifer Lopez, a relative newcomer, but she caught up. fast. I do believe Carlos Santana contributed a few modest hits. As well. The Latin explosion is a very real, genuinely delightful, hugely consequential, etc. thing, even if it's also charmingly super clumsy in its effort to smooth out any potential translation issues. For us non-Spanish speaking listeners, there's a great book by author and billboard magazine journalist and friend of the show, Layla Cobo. It came out in 2021 and it's called Decoding Despacito, an Oral History of Latin Music. Covering 19 huge crossover songs spanning from Jose Feliciano's Feliz Navidad in 1970 to Rosalia's Mavamente in 2018. And at one point, the blockbuster songwriter Desmond Child. He talks about writing for Ricky Martin. And Desmond says, quote, I delivered the demos to the record company and someone said, The song's terrific, but can you write it in English now? I said it is in English. And he said, It sounds like it's in Spanish. You have to write in English. No one knows what Vita Loka is. Sara Viva Louca Chegou Chur Viva no vida. We figured it out. Layla Kobo writes that at one point Billboard magazine ran a full page ad for that particular ludicrous number one English language breakout nineteen ninety nine Ricky Martin mega hit. And the ad just said. Living La Vida Loca. And right below that it said, Living the crazy life. Yeah. We got it. Now it's two thousand one and it's Shekira's turn to assert her global dominance from the top of a mountain on a computer. And thus we return to Shakira's 2001 English language breakout smash hit whenever wherever, which peaked at number six. on the Billboard Hot 100 and appears on her 2001 English language album Laundry Service. And that song does indeed include the famous lines, lucky that my breasts are small and humble, so you don't confuse them with mountains. You will not mistake Shikira's lyrics for anybody else's lyrics. Shikira originally wrote this song in Spanish. It was called Suerte, lucky, and those lyrics were originally translated into English by none other than the legendary Gloria Estefa. Crossover superstar, she of the Miami sound machine, she of Bad Boy, Rhythm is gonna get ya, et cetera. The laundry service album peaks at number three on the Billboard album chart in America and eventually sells 13 million copies worldwide. And it lands Shakira on the cover of the cool issue of Rolling Stone. Here we have laundry service opening track objection parenthesis tango. Which just so happens to be the first song Shikira wrote in English. It's not the sauciest line in this song. Necessarily, but I don't feel like saying any of these saucier lines out loud. And furthermore, I love you for free and I'm not your mother is plenty saucy enough, I think. Talking to Time Magazine in 2001, Shakira says, quote, I knew I could write song in English. I just had to get over the fear. Spanish syntax is more flexible. I can put a verb before a noun anytime I need to. English is more rigid. But she also says, the great thing about composing in English is that with three words, you can make a more direct statement. End quote. At this point the Time magazine writer says, quote As an example, Shekira leans back and lets out a cry. Go for it. End quote. Here is another impressively direct Three word English statements. There's a member story. There's a managers. There's my territory and all the things I deserve. Being such a good girl, H That's a rad power ballad from the laundry service album called Underneath Your Clothes, which yeah, that's a very effective phrase, but I'd argue the final word honey is the real master stroke there. The sauce Shekira puts on the word honey. The way the whole song seems to wrap around the word honey like a giant swirl of cotton candy. Laundry Service is a massive album. An objection into underneath your clothes, into whenever, wherever is a candidate for the best one, two, three album opening punch of the decade. But let me briefly refer you to a deeper, angrier, distinctly Alanis like cut called Poem to a Horse. As in, so what's the point of wasting all my words if it's just the same or even worse than reading poem to a horse? Also, dig the phenomenal Alanis like venom with which Shakira spits out the words. Hydroponic pot. I laugh out loud every time at Shekira singing Hydroponic Pot. It's the little things. Hey, guess what? It's time for fulsed over blockbuster Colombian pop star Shekira to pull the guns and roses use your illusion split up double album trick. In two thousand five, Shakira releases two albums. Fajon Oral in June, that's in Spanish. And Oral Fixation Volume Two in November. That's not in Spanish. Hips Don't Lie eventually lands on Volume Two, the English album. And if you want the truth, volume one, the Spanish album, is way better overall. But volume two has Hips Don't Lie. So uh you wanna do this now? Let's do this now. Shakira, Shakira. She make up her head wanna speak Spanish. Shaka Shakira Hips Don't Lie starts with our good friend Y Clef John. This song is a remarkably faithful remake of a 2004 Yclef solo track called Dance Like This, which appeared on the soundtrack to a modest little film called Dirty Dancing Colin Havana Nights. Ycleff is everywhere. all the time. Whitecleft's opening chorus here is pretty much identical to what he did on that song, Dance Like This. The jaunty regal horn riff is likewise pretty much identical. But in this new, far higher profile context, it is objectively funny to me. that multi-lingual superstar pop collaboration specialist Yclef Jean starts Hips Don't Lie by saying she make a man wanna speak Spanish and then he says what's your name pretty my house your house in Spanish and Shakira reacts like he just recited five pages of a Gabriel Garcia Marquez novel from memory. Shakira, Shira! I suppose you can't discount the importance of Yyclef going Shakira Shakira constantly. Speaking of Y Clef blurting out Random, dumb, initially annoying, but ultimately weirdly, absolutely essential shit on gargantuan hit pop songs. So Wyclef says, What's your name? Pretty my house, your house in Spanish. And Shekira's 100% sincere. B sodd response Is oh baby, when you talk like that, you make a woman go mad. If I'd have known it was this easy to pick up girls in Spanish, my high school years would have gone way differently. That's all I'm saying. Here's a legitimately odd sort of sonic aspect. Of Hips Don't Lie that I'm still wrestling with. It's a lot easier to hear if you're wearing headphones, but it's the way Shakira's vocals are mixed into this song. Or I guess the way Shakira's vocals aren't mixed into this song at all. There is a physse here that Shakira's voice is entirely spatially sitting on top of this song. That she's singing while standing in a room. where the song is playing, but she's not fully. If that makes sense. It sounds like you're listening to her do karaoke to it. Shikira is an entirely separate entity from the rest of the song, including Wyclef. And all of the music. This is very obviously not by accident. This is a strategic decision. Push Shakira's vocals so far forward in the mix. then she becomes isolated and extra dimensional. I don't know yet that I'm a hundred percent on board with this approach. But it ain't boring. Oh boy, I can see your body moving I don't don't really know what I'm doing Just seem to have a found I will so first pain Hap on to fail now fail now See I'm doing what I can what I can So you know how to hard to explain And there's Wycliffe yelling Uno, Dos, Trees, Quattro from another room. That radically Shakira forward exit velocity mix Further illuminates what is singular and captivating about Shakira's voice. The percussive ferocity behind every syllable of I can see your body moving, the ultra verbrato on the line, My Will and Self-Restraint, etc. It is worth noting that not everyone was thrilled with this new super crossover. often English speaking era of Shikira. In a pitchfork Sunday review of the laundry service album, written by the critic Isabella Herrera and published in February twenty twenty, Isabella writes, quote, Among her diehard Latin American fans, Laundry service had its share of detractors. Many labeled Shakira a sellout, claiming her newly blonde hair, transition to English, and new look meant she was abandoning her essence as an incisive raquera and transforming into a whiter, sexier version of herself. One palatable for Anglo audiences. End quote. I do not feel the least bit qualified to opine on that, but speaking as an American and non Spanish speaker, coming to these two two thousand five oral fixation albums with not a huge amount of prior Shakira context. I'm intrigued by the even split between Shekira singing and Spanish. And Shakira singing in English and how that difference affects the songs. Themselves. I'm pretty sure my favorite Shekira song ever is track one on volume one, the all Spanish album. The song is called In Tus Popilas. Yeah, that's the most startling and beautiful series of words I've ever heard Shakira sing. The last line there is Que dios no deho de existir. And of course, without the internet I would not be aware that the line translates roughly to That God has not ceased to exist. For me, it's just that I love the falsetto spike on the word De Ho there. De Ho? The word roughly translated as cease. But if you want, on volume two, on what is otherwise the same song, you can hear that chorus in English. And now, appropriately enough, the falsetto spike I love in the last line is right on the word God. You've got something called. Things I want. On volume two, that song is called Something. This isn't a matter of one version being better than the other, but yeah, those two choruses are somehow very different listening experiences. The soothing flow of the line, Things Are What They Will Be in the English version Two. Yeesh. Great song. Great song in any language and at any level of verbal understanding. Take this all as a simple reminder that Shakira's music, Shakira's entire public persona. is an unavoidably eternal act of translation. If you're like me and this person first came to your attention on Whenever Wherever, when she very, very explicitly crossed over, that's cool, but when that crossover happened in 2001, Shakira was already 10 years into her career. most of which she'd spent as a massive star. And from my perspective, anyway, what's reassuring and heartening is that targeting a new audience, and often singing in a new language, did not at all seem to dilute Shakira's fundamental delightful eccentricities. And I have quite enjoyed the visible audible effort. Musically and otherwise, that Shikira has put into these ongoing acts of translation. I always say my hips don't lie. Yeah. So when I have all this, you know, debate with my musicians about how a song should feel or a groove, a certain groove in and it's not going quite well, I say, hmm, my hips don't lie. That's not working. Yeah. They'll tell you the truth. I'm gonna use that from now on, can I borrow that? My hips don't lie. Yeah. That Shekira on the Ellen show in 2005 before Hips Don't Lie is out. How about we not give Ellen DeGeneres any more ideas for how to antagonize people? Hey? All of this crossover translation business on Hips Don't Lie, all that effort and tension and perfection. Manifests itself in the rapport between Shakira and Wycliffe. And as bizarre as the audio mix might be As physically distant as Shekira and Yclef might sound from each other, my favorite part of Hips Don't Lie is on Wyclef's wrapped verse halfway through the song, where Shekira's voice sneaks in only on the line, why the CIA wanna watch us. It's like she drops into the room through the ceiling and then falls back out of the room through the floor. Yeah, she's so sexy, AM fantasy, a red Fiji Let me back with the Fuji's from a third world country Hold back like when Pac carry crates for humpy hump We leave the whole club Why the C I'm being Guilty of some musical transaction I love that little micro moment of magnificent camaraderie there. Between our friend Wyclef and his friend Shakira. My second favorite moment in Hips Don't Lie is literally in the last 10 seconds, when Shekira finally gives in and delivers a simple, timeless, and absolutely necessary. Two-word message. No fighting, no fighting, no fighting, no fighting. You heard her. You heard Wyclef say it like four hundred times, and you heard Shakira say it once. And I'm only guessing here, but I'm guessing you're more likely to actually stop fighting if you hear Shakira say it. Just once. We are so thrilled to be joined once again by Suzy Expizito, critic and column and journalist, and assistant editor for the Delos Vertical at the Los Angeles Times. She's worked for Rolling Stone and written for Vogue, Vanity Fair, El and many other fine places. Susie, it's great to talk to you again. Thanks so much for being here. Thanks for having me back here, Rob. Of course. Uh so in April the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame announced their twenty twenty six inductees and Shakira was on the ballot, I think, for the first time, but Shekiro did not make the cuts. this year. Why, in your opinion, does Shakira deserve to be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame? Shakira just rocks. You know, I think that this was such an optimal time for her because what we're seeing right now. with what's happening in Latin music. Whether it's bad bunny you know, uh performing at the halftime show or or Carol G, you know, Colombian pop star. Headlining at Coachella, these are Shakira's children. If we're talking about legacy. You know, and how Incredibly Latin music has performed not only this year, but you know over the last decade. I think a lot of that is thanks to Artists like Shakira, you know, who who cut their teeth in the ninety's. And Did the whole you know from from Spanish language music to English language music, so that Americans, you know, who who really spend a ton of money on music. In comparison to the rest of the world, like Just so that more listeners could be comfortable with Latinos. And I think that uh, you know, it go it goes beyond that with Shakira though. She's just like an incredible performer. She's a really talented musician who plays multitude of instruments, and she sings and speaks in multiple languages. And we'll you know, meet listeners where they're at. Um Yeah, it's It's something that She has just really owned. Like it's the way that she brings people in. Um it's it's her just just the international character of her music that goes even beyond. And she's just one of the most memorable Uh stars that we have. Yeah, 'cause Carol G just headlined Coachella, you know, when you when you see that, or when you see Bad Bunny at the halftime show, like musically, sonically, personality wise, when you say like th these are Shekira's children in part, like what what aspects of Shekira do you now see carrying on with these subsequent you know, huge pop stars that are crossing over, like in a different way, but the same way that she did. Yeah, I think I think it's about um Just just to Focus on Shakira. I think like In her generation of artists. You know, she didn't start totally from scratch. She was able to m make her crossover moment because she was uh Kind of like ushered in. uh to the US. I mean she started in Columbia. her record, um donde están los ladrones and You know, like they h they helped shepher into This like larger echelon. pop music or of of the pop music industry, um, because they knew how it was. They cut their teeth with Miami sound machine back in the eighties. Of course. Um and you know, they were they were they were immigrants. They it was still a very Um There were a lot of limitations for artists who who made music in Spanish. Before them it was it was uh You know, and I love Lucy. Des Arnettes from Cuba who broke that ground, you know, like performing Cuban music. Um so you know, Shakira is part of a lineage herself, but the way that she made herself stand out was Um Spanish and English, but she also Like It was already like for for those of us in the US who grew up on Um, you know, we grew up on whole and L seven and eventually, you know, like Alanis Morrisette, Liz Fair, you know, like uh women in rock. I mean women of the ninety, like there was also Shakira. breaking this ground in Latin America where there was already like a very thriving rock in Español scene, whether it was like Mana in Mexico or Um or in Colombia, you know, there was Juanas. But there weren't very many women, you know, allowed into this field. And we we have similar stories in the United States. Um of women who really had to fight to get through, and Shakira is an incredible guitar player. She's a an incredible songwriter. We can talk about maybe the absurdism of her lyrics. Please I would love to. She's a poet. Um, but she's just such a well rounded person who did have to You know, she started out in pop. They wanted to make her this like squeaky clean Latin pop artists, but she's a little edgier than that, and she already was from the get-go. And I I think that's really inspiring, and I think that what she showed Um You know, like her Uh People like Whether whether it's Carol G or Bad Bunny or or J Balvin, even like She show up as herself, even in her first english language album Laundry Service. She still showed up as this like weird edgy Roqueta. You know? Um Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. She wasn't following blueprint by that point, and that's what made her so exciting. Right. I wanted to ask you about those mid nineties Spanish language albums, which to me are as much alternative rock albums as they are pop albums. And you mentioned Alanis Morset and I hear a ton of Alanis. in Shakira and I've seen that comparison, but I've also seen people write about how like they don't see that connection at all and they don't understand why, you know, people are always trying to put them together. Like who did you see in the mid nineties on those Spanish language records that first blew up? Like who did you see as Shakira's contemporaries, you know, the singers at that time that she had the most in common with? Was that like sort of nineties L seven whole like alternative rock? I mean it's interesting because when I asked her about it. Her route was Nirvana. Like you know? Right. Um I don't I don't know how deep she got into grunge really beyond that, but that was, you know um One of the first records that she bought, and you know, it called to her. Because she has like a fierceness. Her whole thing, like like her her nickname for herself is La Loba. You know, she's she's the wolf mother. She's the huntress. And you know, she walks on the wild side, and she was always like that from from the beginning. And as for Alanis, you know, Jagged Little Pill, I believe came out in ninety five. Uh I I think. It it did. It was the same year. I think uh Ladrone that came out. Yeah, it was the same year. Ninety eight. And so like um You know, I wouldn't even I I would not say that Shakira was like emulating Alanis. They they were Around time. I think for Shakira, especially when it comes to her vocal style and like the just the the cutting frankness of her lyrics sometimes. She does share some of those qualities with Alanis, but they're they they're coming from two different starting points. I feel like Alanis Yeah, she started as a more traditional pop star and was like, Well I'm gonna get really weird and kinda coffee house with it. And you know, like I think about before Alanis doing these like weird vocal affectations. I think about like Edie Burkel. Sure. And the new Bohemians. And the new Bohemians. And like Shakira also, she's got some songs that have, you know, similar, I don't know. Because she was also she was simultaneously In a Colombian family, but also a Lebanese family, you know, her father being Lebanese. And there's there's a huge Lebanese uh diaspora in Colombia. Um So she was You know, living this by cultural Life. And to sing in Arabic you do have to You know, there there are a lot of scales. Um the way that they sing, they sing with like uh melismas, which is that real like that wavering, you know, like how how far can you take this note? You know? It's like in O It's all about having a really flexible range. And so given her upbringing, like singing in Arabic and Um technique was really important for her. So, you know, I can't speak to Alanis' technique, but For Shakira, it's something that is actually rooted in her heritage. And she turned it into something A little grungier. Yeah. Which is why I think she's so memorable. What did you make of, you know, two thousand one laundry service? That's where she makes this big pop crossover. She's singing in English now, whenever, wherever is a huge hit. And I get the sense that like her established fan base, like not everyone was thrilled with this, that she was singing in English now. Right. And that she seemed to be courting a whole new audience. Like what was your reaction? you know, at this moment where she's getting huge, you know, and singing in English now primarily. It's so funny because I remember feeling disappointed. I was twelve when Laundry Service came out. And I'm someone I started tuning in to Shakira's music when I was like like nine. Um And I was a little rocker, you know, like my my parents were very Gen X, so they did bring me up on Nirvana and Hole and Um and like Green Day and stuff like that. So I loved uh songs like inevitable, that's my favorite one. That's where she really rocks out and is like headbanging video. And so seeing her make this transformation, you know, like she moved to Miami and then went blonde. And I was like, What the hell? This is some That's how they get you. What's up What is up? Um, I should say, you know, I was also a Mogoth at this point in time. So like sure. That's naturally judgmental. Yeah, but I I respect it. I respect it. Well, you know, it was like the the people we associated with blondes were like pop stars. Sure, sure. We're talking like late nineties, early two thousands, uh Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera. And so I think Gwen Stefani Gwen Stefani, like uh going blonde for her, it was like oh no. She's mainstreaming. But I remember I I remember walking it back a little bit because um if you watch the video for uh Underneath Your Clothes In the beginning of the video, she's being interviewed by like an American guy, and so he asks her about, you know Um Mm. being being a Latina artist in the States or something like that. But she answers him completely in Spanish and then She cuts off the interview or like she just walks away when he's like, Wait, but can you say all that in English? And so It's a great start to that video. That's that's really a beautiful thing. That was her way of saying, Hey, you guys I'm meeting you where you're at. Can can you meet me a little further, you know, in the middle? And that's why I say that, you know, Bad Bunny is like one of her children because he went You know, I mean he went all the way with it. He's like, Nope, you gotta meet me All the way over here. А худ спан. Try and learn something for a change. Exactly. What he was saying. No, totally, 'cause I think about, you know, sh the Shakira and Jelo Super Bowl, right? Which was twenty twenty, which is like February twenty twenty before the world went to shit, which I think sort of distorts Well but it was fantastic and people loved it. But yeah, like just Bad Bunny makes this huge crossover move without ever making that concession to speak in English, the way the the singing English, the way Ricky Martin did. No, the way Shakira did. Like I how much Is it How did that happen? What do you think it is? that made, you know, the big Latin pop stars of today never really have to cross over in that like dorky sort of now we're gonna really go for a global like you don't have to do that anymore the way that Shakira did in two thousand one. Like why do you think that is? I will say like a a huge part of it is that Latinos have also like Latinos in the US have have grown. population has grown immensely. Now we are about we occupy about 2% of the population in the United States. And a lot of us listen to music in Spanish. Um we buy a lot of music. Like we we buy a lot of concert tickets. We are fueling You know, at levels We've never seen before. If you look at the Ri and their stat. Um for like the the Latin music revenue, it just increases by the double digits every year. That's I mean just in terms of how many And I I think population growth is one thing. Also, I don't know, we're just really cool. Our music gets around a lot, you know, whether it's Whether it was, you know, uh despacito. Um or whether it's uh I I don't know. I mean, at this point Bad Bunny has so many frickin' hits. Or you know what's happening. Rosalia Rosalia um, you know, coming from Spain and like just, I don't know, intriguing the hell out of people with with her, you know, eclectic takes on pop and Um I I think the fact that, you know, even I think about Beyonce collaborating with Jay Balvin. On that song mi gente. You know, also having more major artists, you know come and uh you know they want to collab with Latin artists. I mean Justin Bieber jumping on this pasito was a huge example of that. Um and so Think there's there's generally like more openness to music in other languages. Think about K pop as a sensation. In the United States. Um I I just think that The American listenership is also More curious these days. Around the oral fixation records, you know, you can start hearing the same song in English and Spanish, you know, across the two volumes. Like, is there a divide for you between Shakira singing in Spanish and Shekira singing in English? Do you think she changed Fundamentally as a singer or as a songwriter, you know, when she's jumping from one language to the other. Um, I would say in the early days I thought so. You know, especially with her lyricism. It would feel very like Um I mean what what what song did were we talking about? We oh, I think we were talking about She Wolf. Like I'm starting to feel just a little abused. Like a coffee machine in an office. I love that. I love that song too. And that's a great line, but it's it's it seems like she's always done that. And she said, she's like I have very colloquial, you know, like casual lyrics. And it's it's it's partly translation, but I think it's partly the way she's always been. Yes. You know, like there's a through line to her lyrics, and it's not just That she's singing in English and writing in English now that's causing her To write like this. Like she's always been like this. There's always been an edginess and an eccentricity to her. That's like part of what makes her great. Exactly. I think the difference between the English oral fixation and the Spanish one, I actually I feel like she really as like a as a singer songwriter. And I I think that her collaborations on these records were incredible too. You know, they were Um distinct records in their own right, even if she did like English and Spanish versions. I think um she did a good job. Of moving between the two without feeling like it was super hokey or or contrived. At least in my opinion. You know, I love that um in the Spanish version she wrote some of the songs with Uh, Gustavo Serati. of Soda Stereo, who is like I mean he's the man. You know, when you're thinking about rock in Español. I I'm trying to think of what the Comparison would be, I guess, like people love him the way that they love Radiohead like. Yeah, yeah. He has like that um very I mean, he he was so inventive and like the two of them together, there's like a video of them singing together that's just fantastic. Uh you guys should look it up, but Um they're both very uh unique artists in their own right. They're both innovators. But then on the uh on the English language side. Um, Shakira teaming up with like Carlos Santana. Um oh my God, and and why Clef Jean? Which is what we're here to talk about, isn't it? Ostensibly. We we were gonna get to it eventually. It's fine. It's it takes as long as it takes. I mean, by By certain objective measures, right? Like this is her number one this is her only number one. pit. You know, it's her most stream song now. Like Hips Don't Lie is her biggest song. By some measures, like it's are do you go back to that song at all? Is it among her best songs? Like Where Are You on Hips Don't Lie, like specifically? I think objectively as like a music critic, yes, it's one of her best songs. Um. Personally, yes, it's one of her best songs. Nostalgically, absolutely just Uh blows, you know, so many others out of the water. I don't know. I don't at the end of the day, my favorite song is inevitable because I will always be Uh a rocker, but Sure. Always a more gothic part. What is it about hips don't lie nostalgically? Like what You know, that's two thousand six, right? Like what mind state does Hips Don't Lie put you in when you hear it now? Flirty. Frolicing, you know? I I will never forget. I was like um one of like the few Latinas like at my summer camp where where I was a counselor at like this girls camp and I just remember like Being in I I was sixteen, it was like the summer two thousand six, and I was showing the other girls how to like move their hips. And they didn't know. It was like that video of Shakira and Beyonce. Right, right. Were you successful? Yeah. Yes, yes. But the funniest thing was how shocked some of my bunkmates were because they were like We didn't know punk girls could do that. This it was a big culture shock in many ways for my bunkmates. But I just remember like feeling really proud. of that and like um I felt like I I think a lot of like alternative kids of color, like Might share this. um experience, but I think it's like We often feel divided or like pulled into two different directions where it's like, Okay, I have to Like I want to be true to my school in a way. I I want to show that I'm still hardcore. But I also want to be true to like my heritage. Um I don't know, my soul. And Sometimes my soul wants to dance like it on. And so does my body. And I can be all punked out and still want to do that. Which is why I think another reason why I really, really admire Shakira because she was like, Why not both? Why not everything? Right. Why not everything? Just try everything. Just like What movie is that? Zootopia. That's right, yes. I forget what that song is called now, but that's By everything. That's a banger. That's a banger in its way. For in a Zootopia context, that's that's a legit song. My my five year old loves it. So that's all I need to know. I guess. I don't blame your kid for that. It's a banger. Um but you know, like That's that's why Shakira is such a treasure because she also gave my teen self permission. Oh Uh which I I just I didn't know. I didn't know what to do. If you put me on a you know, in in a family party, I remember my my family members would struggle to teach me how to dance salsa because I was wearing these huge, like combat boots. It is it is there are some aesthetic issues with that. Yeah. Your pants are dragging on the ground. Yeah, I get it. And so um when Hits Don't Like came out, it was like, I don't know, there was something S like like something raging inside me, whether it was hormones or just, you know, the like coming of age. Uh I I don't know. But Shakira like taps that. Like or she she just woke something up in me, in a in a lot of And I think musically just the the mix. of genres that she plays with, you know, she has the uh like Jerry Rivera's uh salsa trumpet incorporated into the song and then she's got this like really hard hitting reggaeton beat. And you know, why Clef Jean he I mean, he's he's just So cool. And he sings about the connection between like Haiti and Colombia, the like Caribbean connection, the Pan American connection. It not only sounds good, but I think it also speaks to a lot of like Kids from a diaspora, kids of immigrants. Um Just tapping into this very global groove and bringing it to American radio. Uh What a moment. Uh, just to wrap up, I think you interviewed Shakira after she was nominated for the Rock Hall? Like you talked to her about that honor. Like Do you think she'll get in and do you think she cares? You know, everyone is like, Oh, it's such an honor. Oh, I'd love to be in. Do you think it matters to her? Whether or not it ever happens and do you think it'll ever happen S I mean, at this point she's won hundreds of awards, but This uh particular honor for Shakira. It it's It's a special one for her. You know, I only got to speak with her for like a few minutes. She's a very busy woman, but it appears that she's very busy, yes. She's always she's a girl on the go. Um But for Shakira, she's not just a rock star, she's a student. Right. So this would be such an honor for her. I mean, even just being nominated. Фер вас сам спеше, іду, чи воді. performed music in English and Spanish themselves. Just she's moved the needle, not just for Latinas, Latinos, but like women in rock. And I think she deserves her flowers for that. Uh Susie, this has been so wonderful. It's always awesome to talk to you. Thanks so much for being here. Yes. Thank you for talking about one of my favorite people in the universe. Awesome. This has been great. Thank you. Than much to our guest this week, Susie Exposito. Thanks to our producers, Juliana Ress, Olivia Creary, Justin Sayles, and Chris Sutton. Additional production by Kevin Pooler. Animations and graphics by Chris Kallaton, additional art by Matt James, and special thanks to Cole Kushner. And thanks so much to you for listening. And now let's all go listen to Hips Don't Lie. by Shakira. We'll see you next week.