The Modern World Citizen Movement

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It keeps operations moving, teams aligned, and customers supported. It can be the difference between everything running seamlessly in the background or becoming the thing that brings work to a halt. ATT Business Internet is designed to be a reliable provider, helping reduce friction and keep things running smoothly so businesses can stay focused on what matters most. Powered by ATT Business Built to Work. Get ATT business at business.at com This is ninety nine percent invisible. I'm Roman Mars . Recently I've had the great privilege of traveling abroad. I've been to Italy and Spain, Japan a couple of times, England, Scotland, so I've been pulling out my American passport a lot lately. And every time I present it to a customs official, I always get nervous. I honestly think it's meant to make you nervous. There is something inherently fraught and maybe even a little ugly about the ritual of presenting your passport, and that this little booklet you're carrying around with you, whether it says you're from the United States or Japan or Haiti, confers so much power. I can't stand the idea that your value as a person could be determined by the fact of where you were born. But the minute you're asked to show your passport, it's obvious that's how the world works. Especially when billions of people live in countries whose passports grant them little to no meaningful access to the rest of the world. While an estimated 850 million people do not even have the documents necessary to prove their nationality or legal existence. Which is why we wanted to share this story from the podcast Far From Home by frequent ninety-nine PI contributor Scott Gurion. A while back, Scott sat down with someone who deliberately surrendered his official nationality, including his passport Back in October of twenty twenty four, on the eve of the presidential election , Donald Trump held a giant political rally at Madison Square Garden in New York City, and one of the warm up speakers was his soon to be political advisor, Stephen Miller. In a fiery speech, Miller expressed what would soon become the through line of the country's new anti-immigration policy. America is for Americans and Americans only . The rise of people like Stephen Miller shows that we are living in an era when nationhood and national identity seem to matter more than ever. But it's kind of strange, because at the same time that fascists in America and elsewhere are trying to get us all to think in terms of nations, we're dealing with all these global problems like pandemics, climate change, and AI. Meanwhile, technology in the twenty first century often makes it easy to ignore things like nationality and national boundaries altoget her. Therefore, I know this might sound sort of radical, but if it ever made any sense, the entire concept of the nation-state can sometimes seem kind of quaint and outdated for the modern world. This is the story of one man who reached all these conclusions himself more than seventy five years ago, way ahead of his time. His name was Gary Davis, and I went to interview him back in 2009 when he was 88 years old. According to my directions, Gary's house was in South Burlington, Vermont, in the United States of America, but as soon as I pulled into his driveway, I noticed a sign next to his front door proclaiming it Sovereign World Territory. He came up to me, pointed out that I was standing on planet Earth, and asked me to present my world citizen card. I didn't have one, so thankfully he decided to wave the requirement. Then he led me into his living room where we'd sit for the next five hours, talking about a choice he made when he was twenty six years old in nineteen forty-eight. It was a simple act that took just a minute to perform, but it would make the rest of his life really complicated. Over the next six decades, he'd be detained and imprisoned countless times , dragged off the floor of the United Nations General Assembly, and gain millions of followers, all while confronting bureaucrats who had absolutely no idea what to do with him. What set this chain of events into motion was I hereby swear that I desire to make a formal renunciation of my American nationality, and pursuant thereto, hereby absolutely and entirely renounce my nationality in the United States and all rights and privileges thereunto , and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to the United States of America. Gary's life journey that led him up to that point was pretty unexpected . You see, growing up in the 1930s and 1940s, he had a lot going for him. He was born into privilege to a wealthy Philadelphia family whose car was a chauffeured Rolls Royce. His father, Meyer Davis, was a famous band leader at the time. This is his orchestra you're hearing right now. Family friends included Ethel Merman and Bob Hope. As a young man, Gary was a rising Broadway star who, once performed as an understudy to the famous actor Danny Kay. Then came World War II. Gary was drafted into the Army Air Corps and trained to pilot a B-17 bomber. The experience had a profound impact on him. That was a whole reassessment of my role in life. How dared they put me in this role? How humiliating to my soul, my moral, character, my profession. Everything you learn in kindergarten is being is being thrust aside, and now you're a killer in the name of the nation. But you're not prepared for that. You're not prepared to even think about that. There's no education for that. At least there wasn't for me. Flying bombing raids over Brandenburg and losing his older brother Bud to a German torpedo caused him to reevaluate not just his participation in the war, but his identity as an American I said there is something intrinsically wrong with society, and I'm not gonna play this game anymore. So that started me in a whole wave of thinking about how not to play the game. He started reading about philosophy and history and studying the law. Eventually, he concluded that the only way to prevent future wars was for people to remove themselves from the system that creates the us versus them mentality. So after a year of planning and strategizing, Gary decided to act. Embassy on May 25th, 1948, and I asked to renounce my nationality. Well everybody was appalled, of course. We're here to protect you. You know, I said, no, you can't protect me. You know, you didn't protect my brother, and you don't protect anybody outside Usual to begin with. What made it even stranger was that he wasn't becoming a citizen of any other country. What was that? The United States passport. Please give it to us. So then the fun began. Gary left the embassy and went to the local office of the Associated Press to tell his story to the world. Then he went back to his hotel room to try to get some rest, but word had gotten out, so the phone began ringing constantly. First it was United Press, then Reuters, then the International News Service, all asking him for interviews. As I sat in Gary's living room listening to his stories, I asked him to show me his scrapbook of press clippings from the days that followed. U.S. Stories. Philadelphia News, May 27th, 1948. This went all over the press. What is this headline here say? Uh young citizen of nowhere must live there too. See the journalists had a lot of fun with me. I mean here was a big story. Uh it was unique, it was personal, it was political, it was active. The guy was on the line himself. Did people see it as a publicity stunt? Uh the publicity stunt didn't come into play simply because of the renunciation . This guy's giving up United States citizens hip. That's not a publicity stunt. It threw in a counterlight the so called theory that everybody wanted to be a United States citizen. Everybody was trying to get into the United States after the war. Here's a guy who who gives up his United States citizenship. What is he? Is a crackpot? Is he a clown? What's his motivation? In other words, we want to find out more of who he is and what his real reasons are. Gary attempted to answer some of these questions by releasing a statement explaining his action. In the absence of an international government, our world politically is now a naked anarchy. Two global wars have shown that as long as two or more powerful sovereign nation states regard their own national law as supreme and sufficient to handle affairs between nations , there can be no order on a planetary level. This international anarchy is moving swiftly toward a final war . I no longer find it compatible with my inner convictions to contribute to this anarchy, and thus be a party to the inevitable annihilation of our civilization by remaining solely loyal to one of these sovereign nation states. To be clear, this wasn't an entirely new or original concept. Many notable individuals throughout history, including Socrates, Charlie Chaplin, and more recently Barack Obama, have called themselves world citizens. But Gary took this idea to another level. For the rest of his life, he'd be a free agent operating by his own set of rules and without any sort of roadmap or instruction manual. Being neutral, my position was outside the framework of the laws of the nations. It was very excitinging, you know, wonder what's going to happen now. What's the French government gonna say? The answer came quickly. Given that he was now undocumented, French officials gave him a deadline to get out. But without a passport, where could he go? Travelling anywhere was sure to be difficult. But just as Gary was considering his options, he had a stroke of luck. The day that I was supposed to be out of France was september 11th, 1948 . That was the day that the General Assembly of the United Nations took over a little part of Paris at the Trocadero, and it was declared international territory. It was the only place I could go, actually, without going to jail or without going to another nation and facing the same problem that I faced in France. So I went to the United Nations, I made a press statement saying, I'm your first citizen. You know, I have to live here. Gary and some friends camped out on the front steps calling for world citizenship as a path to lasting peace, something the UN's predecessor, the League of Nations, had failed to uphold. Officials didn't know quite what to do with them. Then that November, Gary managed to gain access to one of the General Assembly's meetings, and he used the opportunity to draw attention to his cause. An incident that reflects the mood of an impatient world interrupts proceedings at the United Nations Assembly. All the press was there, and we had huge lights and we had the balcony box wired up so that it could take our uh speech. I interrupt. I interrupt the All the delegates were on the floor. Eleanor Roosevelt, you know, with their headphones, they were wondering where this voice is coming from. Mr. Vyshinsky looks on as the interrupter, Gary Davis, self-styled first citizen of the world, is hustled out. Speak to the people, shall I speak? Will you let me? I said I interrupted the name of people not represented here. The nations you represent divide us, separate us, and lead us to the abyss of World War III. What we need is one government for one world, and if you don't do it, step aside, we're gonna do it ourselves. We had screaming headlines the next day. Those headlines were seen by people around the world. Authors and intellectuals like Richard Wright, Albert Camus, and even Albert Einstein spoke out on Davis' behalf, and he began receiving letters from supporters near and far. Remember, the war had just recently ended, and memories of the Nazi occupation and the Holocaust were still fresh in people's minds, especially there in Europe, so folks were eager to hear what Gary had to say. Less than two weeks after his storming of the UN, he gave a speech in a Paris Auditorium and twenty thousand people showed up. Many of them expressed interest in his movement, so he got to work creating something they could actually join. Hotel Parisien, the citoyen du monde, Gary Davis, s'organise. We set up a registry of world citizens. We hired a whole and we started issuing a world citizen card. That was the first thing. We were ID a whole new constituency, a world constituency. It was a new language . Though Gary Davis no longer had a nationality, he still considered New York his home. So he returned to the U.S. Embassy and managed to convince authorities to let him migrate back to his native land. After arriving, he got married, had a kid, went back to acting, and tried returning to his pre war life, but his heart just wasn't into it. I was making good money in show business and I had so many offers and I gave it all up. I left the top show in Broadway after three days of rehearsal. And I told the producer, I'm sorry, Horace, I can't be in this show because I gotta work for World Peace. Unsure of what to do next, he struggled with how to navigate life as a stateless individual. So I went to the top civil rights lawyer in New York. I told him I said, I'm not a citizen here. I'm not an immigrant. I'm not a visitor. What is my status? And they had a full staff meeting on that. And they said, you're not really here . Legally, you're not here. Physically, you're here. And the government has recognized you physically. Therefore, not being within the framework of the United States law, you have been recognized by the United States government as a sovereign, like the Iroquois Indians. So you've got nationhood within you. You call yourself a world citizen, and you have all these people out there as world citizens? How can you be a citizen without a government? They said you got to declare your government. Once you declare the world government, then you can do a lot of things. First of all, you can issue your own documents, your own money, you can declare war on the United States, and then the United States will beat you and then it has to take care of you for the rest of your life. They had a field date, you know, these were lawyers ki kinda having fun . This was a new problem Gary gave this some thought and decided to follow their advice. On September 4th, 1953, he formalized that registry of supporters he had created while he was in Paris and founded the World Government of World Citizens. He opened an office in New York and hired some staff and interns to carry out the day to day running of the government via a nonprofit organization called the World Service Authority. And they started issuing documents including birth and marriage certificates, international residence permits, and political asylum cards for people who contacted them requesting help. So So at this point, I had to ask Gary the question that's probably on your mind right now, which is some variation of can they do that? I mean, here you have this guy who decided he wants to form a new government that anyone can join, and he's printing official looking credentials for people to present to border guards and bureaucrats. Were these documents actually legitimate? Well, is the United States legitimate? Is war legitimate? You know, turn it around, question around. Who is to say what is legitimate? Is not my claiming to be who I am legitimate? If you're in a desert island alone, are you legitimate? You're the government, you're the citizenry, you're alone. Do whatever you want. But you see me coming all along in a raft, and you say, well, we're together now, we form a community. Then we legitimize the community. How do government start in the first place? They don't start with governors. Government started by people deciding to have a government, to legitimize themselves within a community. legal perspective, Gary told me that yes. He said the work of his new world government was entirely legitimate, because it was based on the articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, a UN document describing the rights and freedoms of all people Return to his country. But what is a country? Tom Paine said, My country is the world. And when you think that you can get around the world in two days today, you can say, Well, really, the world is a country at this point. So we need a document based upon freedom of travel. Hence the creation of the world passport, printed in seven languages, including the made up universal language of Esperanto. So it's made to look like any other passport typically issued by a nation state that someone would have. Yeah. It's a document which they can look at and it IDs you completely. But it's just not a national passport. This is all important for the guy on the frontier, because this is the way they operate. You see, it's for him, it's not for us. We don't believe in passports. We think they're stupid. In fact, many times I say, look, our passport is a joke. It's a joke on them. Whereas your passport Gary said he thinks the whole process of making someone get a stamp and a little book in order to cross an imaginary border is really dumb. But by creating his own passport, he was basically thumbing his nose at the establishment and saying, See, I could play this game too. Now in case you're thinking that Gary just started the world government as a form of political feeder, I should explain that he saw his organization as serving a real need. You see, many of the letters he and his colleagues received, especially in those early days, came from refugees who were stateless themselves, but unlike Gary, they didn't choose to end up that way. They needed a document to say who they were. They couldn't get it from the nation. Uh there are huge refugee camps outside of Djibouti or in the Sudan and and so forth, the people or families uh living under tents uh in the heat. Now the United Nations is not issuing them documents, but the World Service Authority is. And believe it or not, these passports and other documents that Gary and his team of rag tag visionaries created actually worked some of the time. Gary told me the story, for example, about the time members of the Og oni tribe from southern Nigeria reach After protesting the Shell Oil Company's environmental destruction of their land, they had to flee across the border to a refugee camp in the neighboring country of Benin. They didn't have any identity documents, though, so the world government made passports for close to 2,000 of them, which they were then able to use to obtain visas to get out. There was also the young conscientious objector, who successfully avoided registering for the draft through some clever letter writing, claiming that his citizenship in the world government forbade him from joining the American military, and the woman in Uganda caught in a bind when her country's dictator decided to expel her and other members of the country's Indian minority. We received a urgent telegram saying that one of the mothers of the Indian mothers had given birth at Uganda Airport. So what the baby needed was an immediate birth certificate because they were going to be picked up the next day by a British plane. And I got on the top drider, wrote out the first world birth certificate, and went to a stationary store and put a seal on it and so forth. And I got it in the mail at five o'clock and got down to that airport the next day. And the plane came in . The captain of the plane said, where's the baby's documents? We can't take anybody without documents. And the mother handed him the document that I had just typed out on my typewriter. Well the baby was in the mother's arms of course, so the captain accepted that, he had to accept that, and the plane flew to Heathrow, and that was the document upon which that baby got into UK with the mother. In the decades that followed, the world government has continued its work , issuing more than five million legal documents, including nearly one million passports. They say that Ecuador and five African countries have offered official recognition at one point or another , and according to copies of passport stamps and visas people have sent them, nearly every other country in the world has also accepted these passports for travel on at least a few occasions. While some of these might be instances where the border guards simply weren't paying close attention to the pieces of paper in front of them, the world government contends that the fact that their passports have been honored thousands of times over the years is proof that these can't just be all mistakes. But I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that for every instance where people have had success using these documents, there are many other times when they haven't worked as intended. Some critics have charged over the years that the world government is in the business of selling false hope to undocumented individuals, given that the legal recognition and acceptance of world passports and ID cards is unpredictable and by no means guaranteed. An organization spokesman said, however, that simply providing people with papers gives them some degree of human dignity. Gary, for his part, had little sympathy for anyone who said his documents like the world passport were little more than novelty items. Does it work ? You know, I have to say to you, no, it doesn't work. It doesn't work. I work . I'm the citizen. The documents do nothing . It's a tool. A hammer does nothing unless you pick it up and know how to use it. My consciousness works, and I'm conscious of who I am . That's the only thing that works. We say that to everybody who calls us. We're not doing anything really, except giving In other words, he said people can't simply present a world passport at a national border and expect to breeze through immigration the way they might with a national passport. They need to stand up for their rights and know the right things to say to convince the border guard to let them through. Did you claim to be a world citizen? Do you know anything about the Declaration of Human Rights? Have you read any of my books, you know, you're on that front line. You're the guy who gets out there and talks to these idiot officials. If you ever learn how to talk back to them, then they're gonna put you down. They're gonna humiliate you every time. Then you're gonna write to me or or call me and say , I paid for that passport and it doesn't work. When people say your passport doesn't work, you say, well, I went to India with the first passport, number 00001 . And I left India three months later with seventeen visas on my first passport. Don't tell me that passport doesn't work. But even Gary, who is well versed in international law and had all the best legal arguments at his disposal, had mixed success. Over the years, by his own account, he was imprisoned thirty-four times in nine different countries for trying to exercise what he saw as his right to freedom of travel as a world citizen. Sometimes it was because his passport was outright rejected. Other times, he was initially allowed to enter a country, but then later arrested. Since he disagreed with the concept of nation-states, there were also instances where he crossed the border by riding a bicycle on a path through the woods instead of going through an official crossing, so he'd get in trouble for that. When I first learned about Gary Davis a number of years ago, I was intrigued. So I actually sent away for one of his world passports, but it's been sitting in a drawer ever since, and I've never tried using it myself. Because I'll be honest, while I really appreciate the concept of a world without borders, I'm not an activist for the cause. I mean, it's not something that I feel so strongly about that I'd be willing to risk being detained for hours or even days in some foreign country's airport and missing my flight. When I'm traveling, I usually just want to get to my final destination without engaging in political and philosophical arguments with border guards along the way. I mentioned to Gary that I had one of his passports but never used it, and he called me a coward. I understand why he sees it that way, because for him this was a cause worth devoting his life to. I've taken my case up to the Supreme Court. They didn't hear the case, but when the Supreme Court denies your writ, that means the lower court decisions prevail. But all the lower court decisions were that I was an excludable alien and There's nowhere they could send you too. So Gary was basically in a stalemate with the US government, living out his life in his humble home there in South Burlington, Vermont, despite existing in a sort of legal limbo. One journalist went to the immigration department. She asked, what is Gary Davis's status? And his answer was, Gary Davis is a legal fiction . That means I don't exist . If that's not proof of the power of an individual that according to the United States, according to all the nation-states, you claim to be a world citizen, you become a legal fiction that they can't deal with you. But you're still existent. In addition to issuing passports, birth certificates, and ID cards, Gary's world government has created a legal department to provide support for document holders whose paperwork is denied . They've established a sovereign order of world guards that anyone can join, and they've even printed their own stamps and world money. This is our world treasury here. He pulled out a box. As a world citizen, I decided that we need a new currency. The currency is called the Mondo, M O N D O . And this money is based upon energy. Where is the greatest source of energy ? It's the sun, obviously. Buckminster Fuller says there's more energy poured on the earth by the sun in five minutes than humanity uses all year. These are kilowatt dollars. This is a peace currency. You can't fight wars with it. So look at the immediate trust that it'll have. I get a lot of letters for people to donate money. I always put this money in and I explain it with a sheet. This is world money. You want a donation from world citizen? This is what you're gonna get . Now I haven't gone into the markets and started using it at this point, but that'll come . Gary passed away in 2013 at the age of 91, and he was active until the end. Shortly before his death, he mailed a world government passport to WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange when he was holed up in the Ecuadorian embassy in London, and also to fugitive national security contractor Edward Snowden, who's been living in Russia since his US passport had been revoked. Gary Davis's view of political boundaries was not that they shouldn't exist, but rather that they don't exist . He said they're a legal fiction we've all come to believe in, and by placing himself outside the realm of the nation-state, he'd thereby rendered them obsolete. For Gary, the idea of world government was not some far-out utopian vision, but rather an idea rooted in pragmatism. He said we're all world citizens, but it's up to each of us whether we want to recognize that fact. When I first met Gary at his home there in Vermont, he told me about a recent trip he had taken to visit his kids who lived in Montreal. Coming back, he arrived at the U.S. border as usual with only his world government passport. At first, immigration refused to let him pass. It was the same bureaucratic showdown he'd faced many times over the years. Gary told them that their borders were ridiculous. He said that the sun shined the same on both sides of their imaginary line, and that he was just going from one part of the world to another. Home . When we come back, I talk with Scott about the work of Gary's world government today. Stay tuned. Consider the impact of thoughtful design on your life. How beauty can capture your imagination, how it can guide you, empower you, and enrich everything you do. When you get behind the wheel of a Buick, the power of purposeful design is felt in every detail. From the sculptural presence and elegant finishes of the Buick In Vista to the intuitive technology and spacious sophistication of the Buick Enclave. 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Everything is designed to last and make getting dressed easy. I live in the Bay Area. It is springtime. There are lots of temperature fluctuations. It can be 80 degrees some days, it could be 60 degrees some days. And so I have many cashmere zip-up sweaters from Quince. I have three of them. One of which they gave me, two of which I bought with my own money just so I could have more of them. They are that good and they come on and off my body all day long. Refresh your wardrobe with quince. Go to quince.com slash invisible for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. Go to QUINCE.com slash invisible for free shipping and three hundred and sixty-five day returns. Quince.com slash invisible So I'm back with Scott Gurion, who originally produced that story for his podcast, Far from Home. Scott, welcome back to the show. Thanks so much. Thanks so much for having me, Roman. So this is all from an interview that you did with Gary nearly twenty years ago. So I wanted to get a bit of an update from you. Uh you mentioned that the organization that Gary founded, it's still around. What is their mission today? Like how has it changed since Gary's death? So um I actually spoke to uh David Gallup, who's the president and general counsel of what's they're now calling the world citizen government. And he says the organization has kind of broadened their focus a little bit since Gary's death. Um w when he was around, you know, they were just kind of very insular and Gary, you know, in retrospect was really opinionated. He he could be like difficult to work with at times. Um he just wouldn't have uh patience for people who didn't exactly agree with his vision, you know, of how the world should work. So uh yeah, I think in some senses uh Gary's death kind of freed up the organization to kind of pursue things a little bit differently. You know, nowadays they're working with other organizations more. Uh in specific terms, uh some of the things that the world citizen government is focusing on nowadays. Uh they're working on um advocating for the creation of a world court of human rights, and they're also trying to expand the movement to a younger audience. They're uh creating these world citizen clubs at a bunch of high schools and college campuses all over. Nice. Are they still making world government passports? Oh yes, definitely. Yeah. They've now uh issued about a million of them, um as well as a number of other identity documents. So there is still a demand and uh there's stillill fulfing that need. And do they work? I mean, do they work without the power of Gary behind them? You know? Yeah. Yeah, that's um that's an interesting question. Um and I touched on this a little in my piece, but they so the world citizen government says that a hundred eighty-nine countries have recognized the passport on a case by case basis. Um and they say there's a small number which at one point or another have given like de facto recognition. They've sent letters saying that we officially recognize this, though in many of those cases it's been years ago and it's it's unclear whether they still do. Um, the world government says the only way that they have of knowing for sure, like if their passports are working is when users of the passports send them back stamps. Well they send photos. Oh, oh Yeah yeah. It really does work, uh believe it or not. I know it's hard to believe, but no, people s send back stamps and they say they've collected thousands of these over the years of border guards, like you've issued you know passport stamps as well as like work permits and visas and you know in the world government passport. So these documents are honored in many cases. Like they told me this one case of this businessman who had been traveling all over Latin America with his world passport. He sent it into the world citizen government because he was so successful using it that he had run out of space. He needed more pages. Like they they were just really impressed. That's amazing. So who are the people who are applying for world government passports today? Is it all people like you that are just like, oh, this would be a fun thing to have, or people who really need some kind of documentation? From what I hear, it's it's a mix . Um as always, you know, there's just people who are uncomfortable with the current system who want a second form of ID, uh, you know, like people from certain nationalities who might face hostility in certain parts of the world because of where they're from , uh, or people serving in some kind of role like working with an NGO, you know, international aid workers where they, you know, their primary identity is helping people around the world, not to their individual nation state. So they want this kind of world government passport. But then, you know, there there are also people who really desperately need it, who need some sort of form of ID, like refugees and stateless individuals fleeing persecution, violence, or natural disasters, you know. You know, after the war broke out between Russia and Ukraine, the world citizen government tells me they got tons of letters and emails on both sides of the conflict, people trying to escape and you know didn't want to be conscripted to fight in the military. Uh they've also heard from lots of people in the Palestinian territories. And then we should mention, in addition to issuing identity documents, uh they also provide free legal advocacy to refugees and stateless people around the world. Oh wow. So, you know, listening to Gary, um , you know, his vision of a world without nation-states, it sounds pretty fanciful. Um and and I think one of the things that also comes to mind is a one-world government also sounds like maybe that might be worse. Yeah. I don't know for sure. I've never seen it. Um I mean at some point if you have a world government, you have to decide how that government functions. And do they have do they have a concept of that? Like is it democratic? Is it autocratic? Yeah, it was definitely democratic, they would say. Um, but they didn't yeah, but Gary did he himself didn't really focus on like the actual what form the government would take and the elected representatives and how you know, he kind of left that to others. Yeah. You know, he was just a provocateur and just like this is not working, but we'll figure out something else. But like figuring out like how many electors are to a thing. Right. Like who wants to wants to do that? No, they they then they clearly said Ga Gary was not a communist, he was not an anarchist. I mean it wasn't like a political ideology uh behind it that like it is um, you know, that you would think of. I mean there's this way in which the lack of specifics can