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While I was doing my makeup for this episode, I was watching another Mel Robins YouTube video because that's all I've done this week. And the video was called Eight Things to Tell Yourself Every morning. And the first one was Tell yourself that today is going to be a great day The only thing keeping you from waking up tomorrow and feeling incredible is eight things to tell yourself in the morning. The first one is you need to tell yourself today is going to be a great day. And I was like, and that's not like bad advice, but that's literally the line from dear Evan Hansen Like dear Mel Robins, today is going to be a great day and here's why. Exactly. Anyway Let's start with a joke What did Marie Antoinette say when she heard the people were starving? Let them eat cake. Aen. Let them. justust let them. And welcome back to A bitit Fruity. I'm Matt Bernstein. I'm so happy that you're here When I was in tenth grade, around twenty fifteen, I was taking a chemistry class and I hated it I was so bad at it you know, memorizing the periodic table, the different formulas, moles, Av avro avagadro's number. I was so bad at it. I never wanted to do it. I wasn't good at it. There's a reason I do a podcast now I had one friend in that class named Kayla, and we would hold each other accountable for studying, for getting our work done. And one day, when I was texting her complaining about homework She sent me a link to this TD talkalk It was called How to Stop Screwing Yourself Over, and it was by a woman named Mel Robins. My name is Mel Robins and for the last seventeen years, I have done Nothing but help people get everything that they want. It was pretty standard, like pick yourself up by your bootstraps advice, you know The only person standing in your way is you, that sort of thing. So why don't you have what you want When you have all the information that you need, you have the contacts that you need, there are probably free tools online that allow you to start a business or join a group or do whatever the heck you want All day long, you have ideas that could change your life that could change the world, that could change the way that you feel What do you do with him Your parents make you do the things you don't feel like doing because you won't. Ever Now, nothing And even when you get good at something, you'll figure out something else you don't wan to do And then you'll clatchch around out and you'll bord, I hate this job. This is boring. But will you look for a new no You'll just bititch about that one. Your problem isn't ideas. your problem is you don't act on them You kill them. It's not my fault. It's not anybody's fault You're doing it to yourself. But her delivery was so convincing that it really did get me. to do my chemistry homework. It was great advice. I watched this TEed talkk over and over and over again, to the point where Kayla and I, when we'd see each other in the hallways, we would quote it to each other in the Mail Robin's voice. You're not fine, you're fine, you're not fine. You don't wan to do it. You gotta make yourself do it, but you don't wantan to do it Anyway, that class came and went and I kind of forgot about Mel Robbins while Over the last decade and a half, she became the face of the unlicensed life coaching industry and one of the most popular self help influencers in the world Mel Robins has over twelve million Instagram followers, six million Facebook followers, five million YouTube subscribers, She's written multiple best selling books. But as someone who doesn't engage with this kind of content anymore, that all kind of passed me by That was until about a month ago When I saw the following headline, Mel Robins' response to backlash after telling women to upload all their financial documents to Microsoft pilot. Okay Groundbreaking. Sounds good. Sounds good, sounds good. So anyway, I set out to learn everything I could about the woman who once helped me do my chemistry homework and today I'm going to share with you what I learned and why I fully believe that Mel Robins would sell you crystal meth if she could brand it as a product that would help you focus and if the payout was good enough It's kind of where my thesis comes down. And to do that, Today, I'm so excited to be joined by Ltime friend of the show, Kat Ten Barge writer of Spitfire News, Kat, welcome back to the show. Thanks for having me. And by the YouTube political pop culture feminist analysis Queen, dare I say, Princess, Princess Weeks, Wlcome to the podcast. Thank you so much, long, long term fans. so I'm so excited to be here. This rabbit hole has been No abulous As a procrastinator, I felt validated and called out in equal measure. The three of us have spent the last couple days texting just like nonstop about Mel Robins in full disclosure. So I do feel like our loins are girded. I can't stop saying let them. Incredible. I was just telling you guys this but like my boyfriend called me this morning, he was driving to work and he was like, There' so much traffic and I was like, let them And he was like, what does that mean? And I was like, just let them. It's so good. Before we kickstart this whole timeline of Mel Robbins, and my God, there is a lot to get to, do either of you have sort of top line thoughts about Mel, what you know about her, what you don't self help influencers or the coaching industry? I mean, give me your thoughts. Self help books are already like one of my seven Rings of Hell if I was on Dante's infernal journey. because while there is some good stuff to be like gathered from like bits and bobs, one, most of them should only be a one hundred pages. Like it's like the way they were dragging in anecdotes and uncles and family hundred pages tops. It could be a really thoughtful substack. But I also feel like in this online space where we have like a total collapse of like actual expertise It's sort of like this ever like fulfilling prophecy of people trying to find like the latest prettiest way to rebodle like confidence and trying to find some way to make it accessible and make something that you can just do every single day. And the reality is is like Life is exhausting. life is hard and sometimes all you are is fine. This sort of like pseudo like get up and go thing. We do it every couple of years and every couple of years, we're like, but did it really help? So I'm really curious to see she sort of illustrates this entire journey. My initial thought about all of this and I'm excited to get into it is I feel like this advice really only works if you're already rich and successful slash have access to the tools you need to be rich and successful because like so much of the top line advice just is incompatible with eighty percent of the human population and like the lived experiences of average people. So let it Let them cook Let them cook with their advice that's incompatible with reality. Let them and let you decide what you're gonna do next, which is listen to this podcast. Let's get into Mel Robins's early life So where does this all begin? Melanie Lee Schneieberger was born in nineteen sixty eight, Kansas City, Missouri, but they moved to Michigan as a child. I think you can tell, she has a very strong Michigan accent, which I find quite charming. Mel Robins's father is an osteopathic surgeon. My understanding is that like when she was a small child, he was still in school to become an osteopathic surgeon. and at that point, like They were in debt. She talks about how Her parents were in their late thirties when they paid off their student loans, which now is like, I feel like if you pay off your student loans by your late thirties, it's like normal if not ahead of the curve But anyway, by the time she was an older child, like they had a good amount of money Which is interesting, because a few years ago, she posted you an Instagram about how you don't have to come from much to get a lot. and the caption was I didn't come from much, but my parents taught me how to make much of what we did have. My grandparents were farmers, bakers, and coal miners. My parents met as college students in the middle of Kansas when my mom was eighteen She dropped out to marry my dad bad decision, just in general. And raise whatoney to my g. Yeah, Don't drop out of college to get married is my takeaway from that. her I don't remember them complaining, but I do remember them celebrating when they finally paid off all the student loans in their late thirties. fifty two years later, they're still together and have created a beautiful life. They were definitely complaining. I guess I don't know, this line I didn't come from much. I guess like anyone could say that. it just depends where you start the timeline. Like you know, like I grew up, my parents were working upper middle class, but like my great grandparents fled Poland for religious persecution. So like I didn't come from much. if we start with them. Yeah. And it's all relative too, because what is it to like not come from much in certain parts of the country is like a totally different experience. Like my mother was like a sooule breadwinner even though we were in a two parent household We lived in Brooklyn and she made like what money would be like definitely upper middle class somewhere else. But in New York, it's just not the same thing. So like anyone can create a narrative of which They were living that struggle life if they really know how to manipulate the books, one hundred percent. Mel Robbins graduated from Dartmouth. She got her JD at Boston College. Then she moved to New York where she was working as a public defender, which is where she met her husband, Christopher Robbins. Christopher Robins isn't that like a car Winny the Poo! Our age gap is showing. we're like we're like hundred No, I just forgot his name. Okay, he's the boy from Winnie the Poo. Well, anyway, that's who she married. They got married in the mid nineties. Their wedding was profiled in the New York Times. I want to shout out the Not the Good Girl YouTube channel and the video that she made about Mel Robins because that is how I out about this New York Timess wedding profile, and then I went And read the New York Times wedding profile, which first of all, describes Mel and Christopher as having met at a quote black tie event at the Puck building. Naturally. Also, quote. The couple were married at the bride's family home, a large gray clapboard house on Bear Lake in North Muskegon, Michigan, near Grand Rapids The wedding was performed on the tennis court by the Reverend Glenn Wagner, a United Methodist minister So they have ais So they have a tennis court. That was like one of the widest sentences I've ever. I was like large gray clapboard house. I just like, yep. I'm happy that her childhood home had a tennis court for her to then get married on. But why can't all of these people just be honest about it? You know, I make these episodes every week Last week was about Kevin O'Leary, who I feel in many ways is Like cut from the same spiritual cloth as Mel Robins. and he also is like, my mother was just chipping away. His mother gave him ten thousand dollars to start his business. Mel Robbins didn't come from much, but got married on a tennis court. I don't wantan to get caught up in every detail because I have twenty pages of notes here. But why can't we just be honest I feel like this is such a common mythology for people who are extremely successful, like trigger warning, Taylor Swift. but like she does the same thing where it's like in a lot of her lyricism, which like sure it's not one to one autobiographical or supposed to be. but it's just this constant like self reinforcing mythology of I struggled in life to get here. like I deserve this because I put in the work. And I think that is so crucial to what a lot of these people are doing because it basically is just like the justification for having an enormous platform of wealth today is like I did do something to deserve this, otherwise, I guess they fear that it starts to fall apart And it's that constant appeal to like American individual exceptionalism of like, you can do it here. like just like, you know the Carnegies, like you can come here from nothing and do whatever. And so it just perpetuates this idea that if you are failing It's because of you because if I could beat the system, why can't you beat the system? Yeah ye. By the way, I just want to say, it is very interesting to me that she was initially a public defender Because when you are a public defender, especially in a place like New York City, you are working on legal cases for people who like can't afford counsel We're gonna to take that a little further in a second, but she really does at points in her early career have an up close and personal look into systemic injustices that exist in the world, which makes the advice that she gives today all the more interesting and all the more like bullshit because I'm like, really And' like you've seen enough of the world, despite all of your privilege, I think you've seen enough to know that you're full of shit. That's my two cents. But anyway, they move to Boston. She transitions out of law and towards self help and life coaching, which it seems to just have been something she's really always wanted to do She in the mid two thousands hosted a radio show from their home in Boston, which the home had a studio for her to do a radio show in. It was called Make It Happ with Mel Robbins where guests would call in for advice. In two thousand seven, Mel Robins was profiled in Boston magazine. in an article titled Mel Robbins is not the Bashful type. The Sherborn mom turned advice guru has a hot husband, a beautiful house, a deep pocketed clientele, and a very healthy opinion of her bad, bad self Who could blame her for wanting to teach every woman in America how to have a life as perfect as hers. This is in two thousand seven. This is so far before she's famous anyway. This is also like this is a woman who knows her audience at the end of the day. And like the brand that she's curated is one where she can reach every person, but she knows how to reach the people who actually have money. And that article subheading tells the whole story because what she's saying and her personal brand is to reach as many people as possible But her paying clientele are the ones with the deepest pockets. So it's like a message that sounds universal, but she knows who she's really targeting and she's been very good at that And I would to be careful not to like say like, specifically towards Mel Robbins, but I feel like When it comes to these life coaching industries that are made by people who have like no real background in like sociology or psychology, et cetera, this is a general statement. The line between this and cult is so narrowed to me because like Nixom started off as like a life self help coaching classes that were targeting people with a lot of disposable income And look where that goes. It's this mentality like you're trusting this person with like all of these intimate things because they looked thepart. or they sound the part and nothing actually going deeper than that. This article published in Boston magazine talks about how Mel plans for the coming years to include self help toomes, audio books, and a syndicated offline talk show, which she quote says she'll insist to be filmed in Boston.e If Oprah can do it in Chicago, I can do it here So she's already, you know teing herself up to like aspire to be an Oro like figure in two thousand seven. Another quote from her, I believe I am a brilliant and gifted guide that I have been given a tremendous intuition Good for her What's her staride? I got to look that up Libra Wait, I'm a Libra That's okay. No, I do I love a Libra. some of my best friends are Libras, but yeah october sixth. This article goes on to talk about how before she cut back on private appointments by about seventy percent to focus on her media pursuits Robin's two hundred and fifty dollars an hour counseles in parenthesis, she now charges three hundred and fifty. Also, I'm adding, this was in two thousand seven included fellow moms, recent college grads and executives from companies like Dunkin Donuts, Fidelity and Johnson and Johnson. This was just basically a puff piece that she clearly found someone at Boston magazine to write about her. and it's sort of, I mean, it's just like a grift all the way because she's like doing this resume about how she's so good, but it's ultimately to get clients who then she can use as you know, further testimony about how she's so good at life coaching She just wanted this really bad And something Mel Robins will do later in her career is she'll be like This all just kind of fell into my lap and my friends noticed how good of an intuition I had and how inspiring I was. And it's like, no, you have been grinding at trying to be a famous self help influener since before there were even influencers since when it was about talk radio. Again, I wish these people could just be honest about that. This was in two thousand seven and by two thousand eight, of course, the recession hit her and her husband, Christopher, who was flailing in the restaurant business at this point into as she says, financial and marital disarray. And famously she says over and over that they fell into eight hundred thousand dollars of debt I can't say that this is or isn't real, but just I start to take everything these people say with a grain of salt, you know?. Becauseuse that is just an insurmountable amount of debt for like people who had good jobs. What happened? Like did you really put all your eggs in in restauranting and self help Yeell are adults. This is what season three of Euphoria should have been about Instead of Nate Jacobs getting his limbs cut off because he was like deeply in debt, it should have been about how Cassie becomes a self help author to dig them out of debt. Anyway, amidst the recession, Mel and her husband are really struggling, and it was out of the ashes of their struggle that the Phoenix rose up The phhoenix, of course being The five secondcond rule. Are you guys familiar with the five second rule? I am now. I feel like by just me saying the title, you know what it is It's essentially like the second that you have a thought that you need to get something done, you count down from five, five, four, three, two, one You give yourself the five seconds to like basically launch yourself into doing the thing. She compares it to a rocket ship and she says she she was watching a documentary about a like rocket ship and she like watched them count down from five. and she was like, wow I could do the same thing to get myself out of bed in the morning. I woke up on a snowy day with eight hundred thousand dollars in debt the alarm ring I immediately thought I got to get out of bed. And I was inspired to count backwards five four, three, two one because I hadd seen a rocket ship launch the night before while I was drinking bourbon in front of a TV. And that first morning four, three, two, one, that I got out of bed when that alarm rang It felt like a victory. For the next three years, all I did was count five four through two one. and one Aion at a time My life change. So This is what she says got her out of eight hundred thousand dollars of debt, sort of fixed her marital issues amidst the two thousand eight recession. I read a lot of Let them passages from Let them for us to read throughout the episode. And so in the following passage, she's talking about how the five secondcond role changed her life. Using five four three two one, I push through the excuses, the anxiety, the overwhelm and the fear And step by step, day by day, week by week, I slowly took the actions that put my life and career back on track My husband started using it to push himself to face the issues in his business head on. and it worked for him too. But it would be another three years before I told anyone else about the five second rule how ish I had been reluctant to share it with anyone because first, I didn't know why it worked. and second, I didn't feel like I was in a position to give anybody advice. I pasted this here because first of all, just that last part of I didn't feel like I was in a position to give anybody advice. the point in which she claims to have developed the five second rule, she already had a radio show out of her home in Boston about giving people advice So again, she kind of just like wiggles around in this narrative of like, I was just a humble small town girl And I didn't realize I had invented slice's bread. It's like Youve just you've always wanted to do this. justust be honest, you've always wanted to do this. Also, like the five second rule did not make her eight hundred thousand dollars Branding the five second rule and then selling the five second rule to other people is what made her eight hundred thousand and then millions and millions of dollars. 'ause on its own, I don't think that this is a bad thing. Like I do there's an obvious psychological value in like sort of just like motivating, like being like, I'm gonna do this thing in five seconds. it's a good tool in that sense But it's not a get rich quick scheme or a fix your marriage scheme, or a make your life so much better transformational scheme. It was only that for her because she figured out how to sell it. And I just wan to say like from what you have shared with us and'm just doing a little bit of other research, It's clear that she's already a very self disciplined person. Like it's if you're going to Dartmouth, very competitive school to get into and you and you get your JD at Boston College and you work as a public defender and you're in the legal aid society, like you are already a self driven disciplined person going through a rough patch. And then you get to use all of those skills and those privileges to help you get out of it. And I think that's a part of it too is like as someone who takes Prozac every day, it's like, I can one, two, three myself, one, two, three, four five myself several times. No, no, no No, no, no, no, no. you have to count down. Sorry. I I've been doing it wrong the whole time. That That's a problem. I've been listening to so many goddamn interviews with this woman, but you can't count up because then she says, you could just keep counting up forever By counting down, by counting down, you get to one and then it's over Which honestly, sometimes she says things and I'm like, damn, that makes sense. You like Mars. That's the thing. She's also really good at making a sound bite. and that is one of the best skills you can have as someone in this type of position is being really good at breaking things down into chunks like that. Well, and as each of you have pointed out, all of her advice In general, most of it, it's not all bad It's just also limited. to a very specific subset of mostly inconsequential situations. Right. And as she goes on to write, quote, the stories were amazing People had used five four, three, two one to push through fear procrastination and excuses to change jobs Lose one hundred pounds, get sober, launch and sell businesses, improve their health and marriages. The medical and clinical uses blew me away. Doctors and psychologists were using it to treat PTSD, OCD, and depression I think this is irresponsible. Like especially the use of the word clinical is really interesting because that has like a really specific definition. And I don't think that she didn't reinvent the wheel with the five second rule. I don't even think she's the first person to come up with this. She just like has again, like branded it very successfully around herself. L she's turned it into a person brand I'm sure that doctors and therapists do advise people to do stuff like this, but not because of Mel Robins. It's just like a psychological fact that I think has existed since before she was even born. And that's where the clinical usage of it comes from, I suspect. Yeah, like counting is a common thing or repeating certain terms These are such calm and just taking breaths. L I can just imagine like breathing in between doing it the right way, five, four, three, two, one would be soothing and relaxing. But again, I think as we said before, like this whole idea like lose weight and get sober and launch and sell businesses, it then takes all of that. like if you aren't having those results that you're doing it wrong. Right, exactly. It's your fault. and listen I've read the comments on those videos and some people, maybe even you say that this has helped them a lot And if it's helped you a lot, if it's made getting out of bed easier, literally more power to you. But All of the advice that she gives in all of her books are just different versions of the like, you are responsible for every good thing that happens to you and therefore you are also responsible for every bad thing that happens to you. Groundbreaking. It's just not a framework that's like rooted in reality or like acknowledging the way that the world works. it's just you, you, you, you, you The first time that she talks about the five second rule publicly or, as she says, did public speaking in general, was when her friend asked her to speak at a career conference in San Francisco. She went She says that she completely blacked out on stage but that the speech was filmed, posted online, And yes, became one of the most watched Ted talalks of all time So one more thing that you can use, I call it the five second rule. If you have one of those little impulses that are pulling you If you don't marry it with an action within five seconds You pull the emergency brake and kill the idea. It has currently around thirty five million views, which is almost as much as you guessed it by Sister before it was deleted. Like I said I loved this TEed talkal in high school And it helped me get my homework done. But there's a big difference between like something that helps you get your homework done and something that helps you like leap over the hurdles of structural inequality and Mel Robbins seems to think that her advice applies equally to o I feel like what she does really well in this video is first of all, like in this TEed talk, it's super, super engaging, both for the audience who was physically there in the room with her and for you as the viewer. But the majority of what makes it so engaging does not is not even advice. It's more so like just being a good entertainer, like having showmanship and knowing how to connect with an audience. It's the same thing that like again, like a magician could do a really good job at this A comedian could do like a really good job at this. Like the actual advice when you boil it down is super, super non descriptive. and it doesn't really meaningfully change anything, but I feel like she's also really good for temporary bursts of motivation If I was procrastinating on writing something and I watched this video, I already feel bad. I already know I need to do something. If this woman is just like, you can do it. L, yes, of course there is a temporary benefit to that, but it will not meaningfully change the direction of your life. Let's Talks about the five second rule in the TED talkalk. The TED Tal go super, super viral And in the following March, Mel publishes her first book, stop saying you're fine, the no BS guide to getting what you want stop saying, you're fine is of course one of the viral phrases that she had in that TED talk. In fact, all of her books basically the product of viral posts that she's made, which I understand in the self help industry is probably like how it works. It's like you get a really viral post and then publishers are like, do you think you can turn this post into a three hundred page book? The problem generally though, is that as you said, Princess There's just not enough meat on the bone to fill three hundred pages. Yeah. And then to do the work books and then to do all the extended edition is' like like nobious guide, girl guide for girlies, you know what I mean? Like it has to become an empire. It can't just be like a step In like the pathway of like, you can't afford to have a full time therapist who would ideally talk you through each of these steps. someome inste said, I'm going have to sell you every single one of these books to do the exact same thing, except that what a therapist does is actually work with your own limitations, which I think these systems are trying so hard to fit into that it doesn't take into account. like You know, these things could benefit you if you were working one on one with somebody who could hold you accountable in your day to day life. This can, as you said, Cat only give you like a temporary burst that adds shame if it doesn't go forward. Yeah, I mean, like even if you break down like the things that she talks about as stuff you can use her tools to address. like even if you break it down and just look at one of them Like losing weight. It's like you can there is no one size fits all prescription for losing weight. and this does not take into consideration any of the systemic structural factors that make it difficult for people to stop gaining weight or to lose weight. Like it's not actually useful once you bring in many of the real life factors that people are going through. Also, one thing from this TED talk that I forgot to mention During it, she puts up pictures of her family. L there are pictures of like her kids and she's using them as like a cutesy way to illustrate. like sometimes your kids will like get into the pantry when you have people coming over later. The pantry, like her house that you can see from these images, she has like a walk in kitchen pantry. L I was like, you're already rich. You live in an extremely nice home. suuper gagged by that and the little like discrete ways of showing that you are in fact already quite wealthy. Trust me, I have money I would like to take just a quick minute from the show to give a shout out to Factor for sponsoring today's episode. Don't you just love when you get home after a long day, you open the fridge The groceries, they're looking at you. They look good They're waiting for you to do something with them. But you just don't have it in you to cook That's just most days for me, so no judgment here. Or maybe you're a meal prepper, and what's looking at you when you open the fridge is the same chicken and rice you've had for dinner for the last four nights. What if there was an easier, more varied way to eat in a pinch There is, FactTor is a meal delivery service with chef made gourmet meals that make eating well easy. And the best part is, of course, that they are ready to heat and eat in just two minutes. Factor has a wide array of over a hundred different meals rotating every week, a variety of different specialty menus, whether you love meat Or whether you're a vegan, it really is a great way to just simplify your evening routine or your lunch routine or your breakfast routine, especially if you are like me and don't love the art of setting aside time to cook. J not my thing. If you'd like to try it today, you can head over to factorymeals dot com slash fruity fifty off and use the code Fruity fifty off for fifty percent off and free daily greens per box with a new subscription that is factactor meeals dot com slash fruity fifty off. Thanks so much to factactor and now let's get back to the show That first book didn't become a blockbuster and Mel doesn't become a full time self help influencer right away. What she does in the early twenty ten s before her career really takes off is work As a CNN legal analyst with an increasing amount of paid motivational speaking work on the side on weekends, she became best known on CNN for covering the trial of George Zimmerman Wh's if you need your memory joggs, the man who murdered Trayvon Martin, an unarmed seventeen year old black boy. And she was on CNN, like there's compilations of this on YouTube. She's on CNN, like doing her like Mel Robins isms, but like for legal analysis of George Zimmerman's trial, which he was eventually acquitted. A criminal defense attorney and HLN contontributor Mel, you were there again, O compelling day. My sense was watching it all that the pendulum was moving A little bit more towards the defense case today. one hundred percent. I mean, as you just heard everybody else talk about, John Good was a fantastic witness for the defense. Mel Robbins, HLN contributor, crriminal defense attorney, radio talk show host, Mel. OkayK, you've had seventeen months. We've seen over fifty witnesses. You got a dead seventeen year old here and this is what your closing argument looks like Horrible As a jury, as a spectator, I don't know what the prosecution's theory of the case is other than George Zimmerman lied, but we don't really know what happened now, do we? Well, I'd strike them for a totally different reason. I'd strike them because in This was really depressing and disturbing to watch. Yeah, it was very uncomfortable to watch. Yeah. There are certain realms, especially because she has the background of being in public justice in New York City who has had to see so much institutionalized violence. It's just like it just felt very tacky. The way that she provided legal analysis on this case was to say like, oh, the defense attorneys are doing a really good job here and the prosecution is not doing a very good job here. Like that's the type of analysis and commentary she wass providing There's a place and a purpose for that, but what really grinds my gears about this style of legal commentary, which is what makes up the vast majority of on air commentary as well as like YouTube commentary and stuff. The system is problematic. The system like reinforces injustices. The system itself is worth talking about not just like, oh, is the defense attorney doing a good job, but also like if the defense attorney is doing a good job, what does that say about the reality of how our justice system is failing? And so seeing her just kind of like sit there and like talk about it so like blithely and how great the defense attorneys are doing, I'm just like, it leaves a really bad taste in my mouth and it's upsetting This child is dead and we're all like you guys are all just kind of like sitting here and talking about it like it's a game of golf where the person who killed him is like ultimately gonna to win. And that is what basically happened because he got acquitted. No, I mean, that's right. And I just think I just think what I want people to know about Mel Robbins is that she has always wanted to be a famous television personality And that's fine. But she's not forthright about it And you know, I think if she could have become more famous as like an on air legal analyst, I think she would have loved being like a Nancy Grace She just wasn't making that big of a name for herself covering this stuff on CNN and then she found another way to do it. But again, I just come back to like When I watch the hours and hours and read the books and read everything of what she's doing now and it's like this empty advice that is completely detached from like structural inequality that exists in the real world I know that because of her past, she has experienced that real world, not herself, but through her clients as a public defender, through covering the George Zimmerman trial up close and personal And so I just know that she's full of shit.'s just whatever. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. And like these on air analyst jobs are already very lucrative for a lot of people. Not everyone like gets paid to go on CNN and beian talking head, but oftentimes people in these types of roles especially do have very lucrative r And it's like you look at the world of legal commentary, you saw this with like the Depp Heard trial as a great example. You have these like former defense attorneys, former district attorneys, former like all of these people who have really significant real legal backgrounds making millions of dollars and their stated goal is to like educate the public But what they're actually doing is just feeding into people's preree existing biases and ensuring that the system continues to operate in this way. The only person who really benefits from it is the person providing the commentary because they can make a lot of money doing it. It's also striking to me that she goes from like lucrative on air work as well as very lucrative individual coaching But she sees that the place where you can make the most money and have the biggest impact is through self help books. And I think that is kind of like staggering. That's right. And Mel describes her shift completely away from law and legal analysis and towards self help. Thanks to the success of her TEed talkalk, she writes, Once I started getting paid, I put every dollar towards chipping away at our debt. That first year I gave seventeen paid speeches, Jesus. The next year it was forty seven and I was able to quit my day job. I couldn't believe that was happening. By the third year, I was doing ninety nine speeches plus a twenty four city tour with JP Morgan Chase I had become. I had become the most book female speaker in the world. I was being hired by companies I admired. How did this happen? By forcing myself out of bed on thoseays I didn't feel like it. Right, right Learning how to push yourself to take action When you are afraid or full of self doubt or overwhelmed with excuses is a life skill you can learn Once you master it, you'll understand that you can achieve anything through small, consistent moves forward, just like pilates I don't want to be one of these people who's like, you actually can't do anything. and shouldn't get out of bed. like you whatever. But there has to be something in between that and Mel Robbins saying that she became the most booked female speaker in the world within three years Because she was getting out of bed in the morning. We're literally charting the path of how she actually got there, which is that she had connections that ninety nine point nine nine nine percent of people do not have. She met her husband at a bllack T Manhattan event. She is an on air CNN legal correspondent. These are not just things that you get handed to you. These are not just like opportunities that are waiting for you. You can basically only do this stuff if you are already operating within this like echelon of society constantly meeting CNN bookers and people who book motivational speakers for JP. Morgan Chase. Yeah, they need the motivation for sure. But have you thought about getting out of bed thirty minutes earlier, Kat Maybe I will Maybe I will. Don't you want to go on a twenty four city speaking tour with JP Morgan Chase and other companies you admire? Only with a daily stop at the Capitol One caafe to fuel up morning nro. Yeah. It's one of those things too as someone who I do have a procrastination problem. So there's a lot of this stuff that is accessible. And again, the place where it stops being relatable is sort of like, I am an adult. So I know that the connection between A and B is not really there And it's frustrating to see the lack of transparency in that regard. And I think it's just so tied to explicitly like the women's self help space It's so oriented around making it seem effortless, by making it seem effortless and classy and elegant. L these small consistent moves forward, It's like a way of still maintaining a sense of I would say femininity while progressing. like you're never sweating. You're just doing small, consistent movements Hm That is a really interesting insight. I'm just hearing so much pilates talk too even though I do pilates, but it's all of these things in which like when we're talking about kind of like the Trad wife influencer. think it is also rooted in this idea of like, you know, taking these big spaces for yourself and really being self focused. and it's just like to go from having seventeen paid speeches, most people don't paid to give speeches. Most people don't get paid for any of that labor. So even the fact that you were notable enough that those were paid gigs, is already like above most people And she can't acknowledge any amount of privilege in any of her works like anywhere She can't acknowledge any of it because it would just undercut the basis of her advice on her credibility in giving people life advice, which you might be wondering about She writes, When people would ask if I had a PhD or if I was a therapist, I would say, no. I learned everything the hard way by screwing up my own life and then having to fix it.. I didn't achieve success or financial freedom because of some secret I did it because I was willing to do what most people won't. I woke up every day. and regardless of how I felt, I kept slowly chipping away at my goals for over a decade, a painstakingly slow process. Some days, all I focused on was just trying to be a little better than I was the day before Often, that's all you need to do. I am not special or different or gifted or lucky. I just found the tools that worked for me and I used them. Today, my entire career and life's purpose is sharing those tools with you. In fact, most people don't wake up every day. I didn't know. I was like, what feel learn what they do every fucking day, like oth people don wake up every day. It's like regardess of how they feel. I'm like I think literally everyone does that. I also just want to Give a shout out to actual psychotherapists, social workers, people who do have PhDs, because I know that Mel Robbins is a sore spot for many of them, and many of them messaged me when I posted about planning this episode. When she writes, when people would ask if I had a PhD or if I was a therapist, I would say, no, I learned everything the hard way Unfortunately, that's not actually a credential. No It's really aggravating and this was a cognition on TikTok and it's like, you are an expert in your own experiences and even in that, you are not a reliable narrator for yourself. But the point is that credentials do matter when you are trying to sell things to other people when you are presenting yourself as an authority and not even having the sense to be like I am special I am different. I am lucky. respect that more. I love a bad bititch behavior. Be be like, yeah, I'm lucky. I'm special. I had a really good childhood. I have like really stable parents and everything. And because of all of that, I had the wherewithal to figure out this work. L to me, that is more relatable than just saying I woke up like this, you're not beyonce. It's also very like triling down on that it's your fault if you're not successful because she's literally saying like most people won't do what I do. And it's like, most people don't have what you have. Most people didn't grow up on Bear Lake near Grand Rapids, Michigan, which I'll never forget now for some reason. Like I'm like, most people don't have a tennis court in their backyard. It's just very frustrating for her to like sit here and be like, this is how it is when we all know it's not. Mel Robbins is now well into her, you know, skyrocketing to stardom. She ends up turning the five second rule into a book aptly called The five secondcond rule It' released in twenty seventeen. It becomes a best seller. This is really where she reaches super stardom and fully pivots into full time self help influencer mode. One of my main gripes with self help influencing in general, you are telling everyone else how to live their life If your advice was so good and was so profit generating and was so fulfilling on its own Why is your career giving that advice to people, selling that advice to people? If you were taking your own advice wouldn't ould I not be hearing from you? Wouldn't you just be like happy and somewhere else and making money doing whatever the things is you initially set out to do? It's to me, it's just it's all such a scam. Let them I mean, let them scam me, fair enough. but like Mel Robins, by her own admission, was giving self help advice on how to live life in two thousand seven in that radio show from her home While she says her marriage and career and finances were all flailing, she says like what position am I in? to tell people how to live their life. And by the way, I think that's how we should all feel all the time None of us are in a position to tell anybody else how to live their life because of none of us actually has that authority. Anyone who says that they have that authority, is lying to you, is trying to sell you something, might be trying to sell you six different things as is the case of Mel Robins. and's just it's just a total grift. and I think It aligns neatly with another grift that Mel Robbins would make a lot of money in, which is multi level marketing. Oh my God. Of course, O course. If you are new to the anti multile level marketing space, multi level marketing companies think like Avon Makeup or Rodanon Field Skincare or AMway, I mean, there's a million of them. They claim to be companies where it's just like friends selling skincare products or makeup products which are all overpriced to other friends. These companies tend to operate in the like wellness and beauty space because they target women who are oftentimes mothers, who don't have times to get you know jobs with salaries and healthcare, they claim that you can basically sign up, you can sell people in your community these products, and you can make money from them But what they don't tell you upfront, at least, is that first of all, you have to pay for all of your stock, which is not how an ethical business works And also that the actual money comes from recruiting other people under you, and then you get a cut of all of not only the product that they sell to other people, but also the product that they buy from a company to sell to other people. So essentially, the people are the product. It's a big multi level marketing scam. And I think self helpp integrates perfectly into this world because sef help is a multi level marketing scam. You are telling other people how to live, so that they can tell other people how to live, so that they can tell other people how to live. And it creates a big pyramid. Mel Robbins and like Jay Shetdty are at the top And everyone's just lying and making it up. Exactly. And it is so frustrating when you see someone get into an MLM like just kind of happens there's so much excitement. and I know so many Even young women who like were genuinely trying to find another stream of income, try to use it as like a community organizing tool. and it's like the language of self help being used to sell this product is so dangerous because people right now especially want other sources of income, they want community, they want to feel like they're a part of something and they want to help people. And it all takes advantage of those inclinations And I think nothing better represents the incompatibility of Mel Robins' sort of like grind set pick yourself up byyer bootstraps advice than her collaboration with the multi level marketing world. She gives talks at a number of multi level marketing conferences for these different companies. It's great because the way that multi level marketing companies keep their distributors in despite the fact that the vast vast vast majority of them are actually losing money to the company itself, or they give them these motivational speeches. And it's all about if you aren't selling enough like forty dollars lipsticks or lotions because you don't want it badly enough Mind you, these companies and the way that they're set up are structurally impossible. One of the pieces of advice that you will hear and I've listened to a lot of like MLM content is like, just recruit five people under you every month and you will end up at the top of the pyramid in no time. First of all By the time you've heard of this company, the top of the pyramid has been long solidified. You will forever be at the bottom. Y. But second of all I did a little number crunching, and if you recruit five people and those people recruit five people, in a year, the company has about forty seven million employees. Jesus cry, that's from bigass pyramid. And then within six additional months of that, you have exceeded the population of the earth. Jz I say all of this to say that like ninety nine percent of people don't make any money and it's like zero point one percent that makes an actual It it's also such a parasitic concept because it's like if you're recruiting five people every month and you're also supposed to be like a stay at home mom who's going to her friends and family, you're basically like the instructions here are to create a cult that you suck every single person you've ever met into. and now all of a sudden you've employed your entire social network. And this really happens because like the common thing that people encounter with MLMs is they're like Why is this girl who I went to high school with twenty years ago messaging me relentlessly on Facebook? It's a one step process to just like actually alienate people, driving you further into isolation and loneliness. It's just such an antisocial business model that has reached so much havoc in so many people's lives But the thing with these multi level marketing companies is that they need someone like Mel Robins who can give advice so confidently that is so incompatible with the real world. But that she has such a good delivery that the people that they are essentially like sucking all of the money from will believe it and stay there. In twenty seventeen, while promoting her book, The fiveive Second rule, Mel Robins does an interview with a man named Eric Warry. Eric Warry is at this point someone that she is friends with from the Motivational spepeaking circuit. He is a sort of celebrity multi level marketing coach He just posts videos on Instagram and YouTube telling people the way to succeed in multi level marketing is just to try harder. L that's basically what it all boils down to He is Enormously wealthy through books, courses, speaking events. I put an Instagram video link into the outline. I'll put it on the screen if you're watching the video. It just shows his house. First of all, I think this house is kind of ugly. It reminds me of something I would have built in the Sims when I was like thirteen. Oh my God. it's so tacky. It so B It looks like the entourage house, You know what I I mean? Like it looks like like the boys live there. And what's really sad is like if you look at the comments on this video, which I suspect are pretty heavily moderated and they're probably deleting any negative comments, so the ones that are left are like This one is, You are both the most incredible people in the world. Leading with servant hearts has rewarded you so well. suchuch a well deserved lifestyle with many more years to come Today is the day, congratulations on the new book. Can't wait to get a copy. Wow, that's a beautiful home. well done. Like it's just people glazing them and believing that they again, have earned this because of the mythology they've created, which is I struggled to get here. and perhaps more importantly, so can you. And that's so important to the whole thing This is what taps into that whole American exceptionalism. It's like, is why we can't have socialism because then when you're a billionaire, Dan you want to be taxed? That's right. And so Mel goes on Eric's podcast. She also, by the way, spoke at his recruiting conference. It's kind of a small world with these people. So let's say that you've got a bunch of people that you want to talk to, You want to recruit Ecited, You go into the meeting, but they look at you like this You're like, o, no, I'm not gonna say anything today. They look like they're in a bad mood I don't think I can do this today. Yes, you can Five, four, three, two, one This is the advice she had for people who are struggling to make money in multi level marketing pyramid schemes So the problem is that you have a habit of getting stuck up here You will never grow your network marketing business by thinking about it It's not happening And what I can tell you based on years and years of research because in trying to figure out why does something five, four, three, two one, So simple, create such profound change at not only a behavioral but a neurological and a mindset at a habit level for people all over the world. The reason why you're having an issue if you feel paralyzed or stuck is because you spend too much time thinking And thinking too much itself becomes a habit here's what I want you to understand. the only cure onlyn cure for paralysis, the only cure for fear The only cure for feeling insecure. The only cure for feeling like a loser, like you're going to fail at this thing. the only cure for the hopes and dreams is action. That's it. Genuinely, no shade Mel Robbins, but like I think you're going to hell. I do. I'm so sorry. I think she's going to help. That's so crazy to say that. L I mean like that's just so irresponsible. The reason you're not making money in your they'll call it network marketing because that's like the safe word that they use instead of pyramid scheme. The reason you're not making money in your Lula Row leggings Pcurement scheme business is not because you're not trying hard enough It's not because it's all up here in your brain, but you're not doing. It's because everyone in your neighborhood who wants to work for Lula Row is already trying to sell Lula Ro and you can't all recruit each other because you're all already in the business. there is structurally zero way for you to get ahead of this problem But Mel Robbins you to think that you're not waking up early enough. Like actually and here's the last thing. I know I've been talking too much. Oh my Godd. No, we love it. I haveve listened to so many of these like testimonies from women who have been struggling to get by, to put food on the table for their kids. And so they join these quote unquote businesses, which are just scams, because they think it's going to help them. And like these people are fucking paining to see Mel Robins And this is the I mean, just a lech. That's the thing. like we've crossed the rubicon from like, you're selling these books and they can't really like fundamentally change anyone's life, but also like it's not going to hurt someone But what this is is actually like really predatory because another part of the MLM psychology is like people figure out after a couple of months that they haven't made any money yet. And that is where they really sink their teeth in, becausecause then it becomes like you have to keep buying stock, you have to keep going. You have to keep losing money before you can make that money And that is the psychological trap where they're literally preying on people and like conditioning and manipulating them into growing their debt. And that's just so awful to do to people. Like it's quite quite evil, I would say, to do to people. It's so evil. And even just like you're thinking about it too much, girl, like That's what I mean, like that whole hyper like feminine like is progressive. it's economically empowered of you to like just close your brain, brain empty. Okaykay, You got to girl math this shit. Like you know, like just keep spending money iss not real. You know, it's it's all of that same kind of girly popification of Every serious and it's like slames. And she's not just adjacent to the multi level marketing industry. She's in the heart of it in twenty twenty one. Mel Robbins is a featured speaker at Monate's Monations conference. Monate is one of these many MLM companies. C care and skincare MLM. Because of rules put in place by the FTC, MLMs are required to put out income disclosure statements which show you how much money their distributors make. And after looking at Monate, I can tell you that at Monate, ninety four percent of the company exists at the lowest rank Jesus becausecause the bottom of the pyramid is always the biggest by a lot. and their medium annual income without factoring in products, which they have to purchase to sell in the first place, was dollars. Jesus. Only o point one six percent of the company or sixteen out of every one thousand distributors makes forty five to fifty five thousand dollars a year which is an almost livable wage for some places in the US. And the total percentage of the company that makes more than that iszero point one percent or ten people per thousand. So in total twentyw six out of every one thousand distributors at Monate are making a living wage at this company. And that is not factoring in expenses. Or health insurance, which I definitely don't have. Or the fact that you've now alienated your entire social network by DMing every person on Facebook to buy your terrible products. That's another thing about this specific MLM that is like, I would love to see Mel Robbins do a daily routine with these skincare, hair care, and makeup products. No one uses this stuff. Not only are they not high quality, there are horror stories of people like using these products on their hair and having like bad outcomes. So it's just like, It's such a scam. evenven part of what she was saying was true, you would think she'd at least be like, and this is a really good lip gloss, right? Becauseuse like at the end of the day, you're supposed be selling beauty products, but that's not even that doesn't even come into the equation is like are the products you're selling actually worthwhile? Yeah, twenty six out of every one thousand distributors are making a living wage before expenses, one such expense Being these distributor conferences that these companies put on that they charge the distributors to attend, which typically consist of motivational speeches by people like Mel Robbins, telling them to work harder to increase their downline to a group of financially struggling women who will statistically not grow their downlines because the bulk of the people, like I said, who will ever work at the company are already working at the company this is where Mel Robbins went to give her speech, which, by the way, according to a bunch of different public speaking fee websites Her fee is between one and three hundred thousand dollars Oh my go Wow. That's insane. I've talked a lot about Mel Robins sort of avoiding the structural realities of the world that we live in because it's the only thing that she can do for her advice to seem reasonable. Like I said, I've been watching a lot of episodes of her podcast, the Mel Robbins podcast And a few months ago she had Barbara Corcran on, who is the founder of Corcran Real Estate Group and Shark Tank investor. We've had a lot of shhark Tank on this podcast recently In this podcast episode, my ears perked up when Mel addressed bias against women in the workplace I was like, okay. Interesting. Okay. Woke o'clock. And she asked Barbara Corcran what she would do to combat it. Now I'm going play this video. It is mostly Barbara Corcoran speaking, but I think it really well represents the story that both of these women other women. I'd like to talk a little bit more about your just insights about women and success and being successful because there is a lot of pressure There is bias in the workplace You have always seemed to just pick yourself up, shake it off and plow forward regardless of what was going on around you. You built one of the most successful real estate businesses in a male dominated business How do you want women to think about both the very real things that are against us in terms of the way that business is structured, but the opportunity that that creates and what kind of mindset you need to have. Well, you know, there's always real things against you, but I did it a little differently than most. I never thought of myself as a woman. Not a single day did I think of myself as a woman? I thought of myself as a competitor justust like a man. I was a competitor and I was going to put you under the table withithout a doubt by the time I finish ight? So not having that liability or thinking I was weak or had a disadvantage of some kind or another was an advantage to me. Girl out of my face. She basically also just said that to be a woman is like she basically was like, I didn't think of myself as a woman. I didn't think of myself as I'm not one of those weak bitches who complains about gender or whatever. I get up thirty minutes earlier than the boys so I can get mine, okay? They wantna discriminate against me? Let them. okay. I' my sace on it Oh my God. Like that is like Margaret Thatcher levels of like whatever girl. L me let me drink my wicked family. I'm so annoyed I didn't think of myself as a woman. my new sleep paralysis demon is her going, I didn't think of myself as a woman. Is there a queer joke in there that we can make? That's what I was thinking. About like some like trans curious thoughts in there. Non binary that they were there like, I saw myself, Is' they that? Well, that's like a turRf argument that sometimes Turfs will make about trans men Is that like they didn't want to deal with structural inequalities that women face. so they just became men. That's like JK Rowling's thing, right? Like JK Rowling will always be like, like if I were born today, maybe I would have been a trans men. It's like that is not why trans men exist JK. J because you have a shitty dad and misogyny does not mean that you deal with any sort of gender identity or anything like that You can also just hate misogyny and beist. But this Barbara Corker and advice which Mel Robbins is obviously cos signing. This is like one degree separated from that. Yeah. This is just so meel. Because like I said, it's like the one time where she like tries to bring up almost starts flirting with the idea of bringing up structural reality Like well I just think my way out of it. And then where does race fit into that then? Be's because it is like, you know, there's no way for me to just be like, I don't see color. You know, I choose not to see myself as a black woman. I'm just like I just wake up every day and I'm like, They said the N word, but like, whatever, girl. just it's so lazy And again, as someone who was a public defender in New York in the nineties. Right You would have intimate knowledge of this Ridiculous I guarantee you she faced entrenched sexism that she is choosing right now to deflect from because I think part of the real answer as to how she overcame this is what she doesn't want to get into, which is what you just said, Princess, which is like she relied on the privileges that she did have to overcome those things. She relied on her whiteness. She relied on her wealth She relied on her connections. That is how she was able to like break through glass ceilings. That's not advice that can be transferred over to anyone else. So they come up with this BS stuff that maybe they theoretically could transfer over to someone else. And you know what? we were talking about this, Emma and I last week with our Kevin O'Leary episode, but I do think we should consider the audience for this kind of content, because one of the number one responses I got on Instagram when I posted about making this episode was My mom or my dad, but mostly my mom loves her books, loves Mel Robins podcast This is for a certain, I would say Boomer demographic of listeners who, I think whether they would admit to this or not, are inclined to accept these self soothing stories about bootstraps. and merit Mh It allows them to say like, oh, like, you know, my kid is bitching and whining about not being able to job or not being able to afford a house Well, look, Mel Robbins and I, this is how we did it. Like you're doing everything wrong. like you chose to get a nothing degree. You chose to eat McDonald's. And it's just like it's just so negative. And I think one of the big things that we're seeing gender wise between these two things is like Men are encouraged to be bosers and be bigger through aggression, but women are still being told to do it but do it in a way that does not disturb the status quo. It's like the men get to shape it. And as a woman, you fit into it. And you find a way despite it, But did nothing about then, how do you change the culture? that make it easier for everybody else. ' you don't think about that. You're just thinking about you. Yeah. Could I pee really fast and then we'll let them? Yes, of course. See you in a minute I'd like to take a quick break from the show to give a shout out to Blueand for sponsoring today's episode. Plastic, as you might be aware, doesn't just disappear, it breaks down into smaller and smaller and smaller pieces of what you might know as microplastics that stay in our environments, in our homes, all around us. 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If you would like to try Blueand today, you can get fifteen percent off your first order Blueand d. com slash fruity. That is blueand. com slash fruitity Thank you so much to Blueand as always for sponsoring this show and now Let's get back to the episode Now My dear listener It's time for you to let me let you them In May of twenty twenty three, Mel Robbins put out a video where she said she had just heard about something called the let them Theory I just heard about this thing called the Let them Theory. I fickaking love this If your friends are not inviting you out to brunch this weekend with them if the person that you're really attracted to is notot interested in a commitment, let them If your kids do not want to Get up and go to that thing with you this week. Let them So much time and energy is wasted on forcing other people to match our expectations. And the truth is, if somebody, especially somebody you're dating or who's a friend or somebody you're trying to partner with in business, If they are not showing up, how you need them to show up, do not try to force them to change Let them be themselves because they are revealing who they are to you Just Let them And then you get to choose what you do next This is some TikTok bullsh.. it's so of like emotional boundaries derogatory. Yes.. You don't owe anyone anything. Yeah. It's like it reminds me of like when I was poollly and I would go into like the pooly Aamorous advice Facebook boards. They were like, you are not responsible for anyone else's emotions, but' your own. If your partner has a problem with you going out, then that's there, then they have to unlock no sense of like collectivism at all. It's so weird. It also reminds me of one of my favorite tweets, which is, I don't know, man, sometimes it just depends. Right Because I'm like this does not apply to every situation, even the ones she's describing. If all of your friends are planning events without you, maybe that's because your friends suck But maybe it's because you've done something and your friends are trying to like or maybe they're not being direct with you about it, but maybe you're the problem. And like if you feed this advice to someone who is naturally or intentionally narcissistic, you could easily create a monster. Same thing. I mean, even with the five four, three, two one, it's like if your goal is to up punch someone in the face and you five, four, three, two w it, like that's not necessarily a good outcome either. Yeah.. You might be getting ahead of my outline because later on Let's just say she uses the five second rule to justify some Pty insane advice to people, but let's focus on let them. So I'm at my most annoying right now. I've had a really just like you guys just have to understand like I destroyed my YouTube recommended algorithm forever because of this. like just So tell me Let me be insane. You have to have a second private channel. That's what I do because I can't let them know So in the book that Mel would later publish called the Let them Theory, she claims to have invented the Let them Theory Whereas by her own admission in this very video, it's something that she just quote heard about I just heard this thing called the Let them Theory. I freaking love this. But we'll get more into who owns the Let them theory in a few minutes In any case, this short video goes very viral And in December of twenty twenty four, she releases the smash hit book, The Let them Theory We've mentioned this a couple times with regard to her other works, but I just want to say having read a good chunk of this book this week It's just not it's not a book. This theory isn't complicated enough be a book everything that you need to know about the let them theory, you heard her say in that whatever it was, sixty second video. I wantan to give a shout out to my friends, Michael and Peter of the If Books could Kill podcast because they often say this with self help books. like it could have just been a blog post, it could have been a TikTok. Yeah, it's so interesting how, especially with TikTok virality becomes a way of know getting authority or getting accredation Even though TikTok is probably the easiest thing to get viral on accidentally. So it isn't even a barameter of like, well it like in this case, Mama's already had a name so that already automatically goes into clicks and people engaging. like her job is to sell people things. but It's just so bizarre that she got a book deal out of something that she heard from someone else. and then was and put theory next to it as if that like means something. As Mel describes in the book, the let them Theory, which is no longer according to the book, something that she just heard about, but now something that she created is born out of the idea that you can't do the five second rule for other people So focus on yourself and let them to them She writes, The five second rule changed my relationship with myself them theory changed my relationship with other people. In the book, Mel says that she came up with the let them theory before her son's prom night when her son and his friends wanted to go out into the rain to get fast food, in their tuxes before the prom. This stressed Mel out and she thought it was a bad idea. They were going to get their shoes muddy, etcetera But her daughter just told Mel. to let them and immediately brain unclenched. Let them think biblical. and the sky opened up. And yeah, exactly, and the sea parted. If Pharaoh had just let them people go, then wouldn't have had no problems. He failed to let them carry biblically. That's it That wass good. That' good. So anyway, I don't know. I mean The son going to get fast food before prom, it's a fair enough example, I think. L if your son's suit gets dirty, it's not the end of the world, maybe he'll learn a lesson in responsibility. doesnn't really have anything to do with like your own behavior. It's not that deep This advice from her daughter works so well, though, that she begins applying it to everything She writes, Within a week, I could not believe how different I felt I started saying let them anytime I felt stressed tense or frustrated. And funny, I realized It was almost always regarding other people. Let my family be late to absolutely everything we go to. Let grandma read the news out loud. Let people hate the photo I just posted online be mad that I'm not letting him stay out late tonight. Let them leave dishes in the sink. No girl, that's how you get mice. Let them do construction during the Monday morning commute. You can't control that. L them' opposed to what What are you gonna do? Teag Zoron? we don't all have that information. Let my relatives be judgmental of my career. let my mother in law disagree with my parenting, let them be sold out of bagels at the bakery. Well, that's not okay. Let the neighbor's dog bark all day, T simple words, let them changed everything That's crazy. Like I like some of these things are not like the other. Like first of all, they're not allowed to be soought out of bagels. We're from New York. that's unacceptable. That's the thing is like sometimes the let them theory like could work out really well. Like something I've seen women on like Reddit say that I agree with is like if your husband doesn't know how to do his own laundry, just like let it get dirty. or if your husband like doesn't buy gift like Christmas presents for his side of the family just like Let that happen and like let him face the consequences of his inaction. But that does not apply to like every situation, even some of the ones that she's listed here. L like it's just just nonsensical if you try to apply it to everything. She describes going on Instagram and like she said in this video, so it's hard to know if this is like theoretical or something that tos like actually happen. but in the book, she says it actually happened She goes on Instagram and realizes that all of her girlfriends took a weekend vacation without her. her response What at them Should I read this little excerpt? Please? At first, those words felt like a rejection I was giving in, but then I realized something important them wasn't about giving in. It was about releasing myself from the control I never had in the first place. Because here's the truth. No matter how much I tried to analyze the situation or how many ways I could try to control or fix it, nothing I did would change what had happened. Their choice to go away didn't have to make me feel bad, but my attempts to control the situation were making me feel horrible The sad truth is, I did this to myself. My friends didn't do anything to me. They were just living their lives. They are allowed to go away. They are allowed to play a weekend with whomever they want. The way I reacted to their trip is what hurts Before we comment on this, I just want to add she goes on to describe her philosophy a little further,ote If you're struggling to change your life, achieve your goals, or feel happier, I want you to hear this. The problem isn't you problem is the power you unknowingly give to other people Here's why the let them theory works When you stop trying to control things that aren't yours to control You stop wasting your energy You reclaim your time, your peace of mind and your focus. You realize that your happiness is tied to your actions, not someone else's behavior, opinions, or mood The truth is, other people hold no real power over you unless you give it to them Eleanor Roosevelt said it's like two sentences. like I digest. I don't know genuinely how she was able to publish this. This is just like the opposite of brand new information. likeike this is just so repetitive 's not even bad advice because you should be careful about like giving too much of your energy away to other people But the way she packages it is just there's just something so artificial and disingenuous about it that just kind of like it just makes the whole thing very both annoying and gross at the same time. I think it's like kind of bad advice though I mean, not in every situation, obviously. Yeah Like you're right, I mean, there is like, of course the self care element. I think this can be bad in two directions. One, being what we were saying is it's like this can very quickly, I think, lnd itself to like narcissistic personality disorder, whereere it's like if someone's mad at you for something that you did, let them You know, you can't control how they react But then in the other direction, which I think comes out in this passage specifically, is it's like if something bad happens to you, or you are up against some sort of structural inequality or or trauma or whatever It makes the bad feelings that you can have about that entirely your own fault because she's claiming that the only power anyone has over you is the power you give them, which is just not true Right not to go head to head with you on whether this is good advice or not. Oh yeah, no. I mean, I think what is good advice is like what you said, but I also agree like there's this attitude that kind of ignores the fact that like we are all part of the system. We didn't just fall off the coconut tree. And I think I've just also seen O books present this in just a lot better ways. Like I think of like all of the most popular books about polyamory or being an open relationship, they all ask you to be very introspective about what is it that you want and to actually unpack like why do you have certain expectations about certain kind of relationships? Why do you prioritize certain kinds of relationships over the other and how to actually have healthy communication with people, not just like letting them step all over you and then being like So yeah, I get what you're saying, man, absolutely. I feel like my issue with the way that she tries to make all of this advice so universal and apply to every situation is that it ultimately becomes a false premise because it's like we live in a society and we have created a system in which people do have power over others And if you're constantly trying to say like no one can tell me what to do, like no one has power over me. On I have power and control over myself, in some ways, like you would actually be disrupting the social fabric. because I feel like this also feeds into the mentality of like, I'm not getting vaccinated because like I control my own reality Other people don't have control over me. or even like the attitudes that people claim to hate, which is when students in class are like, I won't listen to the teacher follow the rules. it's just a very the world is more nuanced than these black or white prescriptions would lead you to believe and therefore the advice ultimately becomes meaningless once you try to relate it to like the complexities of the real world. And as a public deffender, as Matt she's bringing up, she should know this because like public defenders are notoriously like under resourced. She knows from her first career, that the system definitely has control over you. that when you put yourself in front of a jury trial, they definitely have power over you M It does not make sense that someone with her background. I mean, it does make s because she's a grifter, but knowing what her background is it makes this seem just even more illogical. Yeah, I kept thinking when I was reading this book about like labor organizing, being born out of like the reality just one of so many examples. the civil rights movement, feminism, literally any social justice movement, any movement for any marginalized people stonewall These are born out of realities that people understand that actually people do have power over us, that we did not give them Mmhm And we can't just be like the The police are raiding the gay bar again them C you imagine if Silvo Rivera was like let them I need to make this this is a prridepisode technically because it's coming out during June. so I need to have a prride reference in there somewhere Could you imagine she was just like them It like gives the gameway that all of the examples she comes up with are so benign whereere it's like, let your grandma like read the news out loud. L that's not even like very much of a real problem. It's just a temporary annoyance that would pass whether or not you bought this book. But also like the one where it's like, let my mother in law disagree with my parenting, again, it really depends For most cases, this is probably true, but if your mother in law disagrees with your parenting because you're letting your kids skip school three out of five days a week, then she has a point and like you should not be doing that. L it's just so useless. Like this advice to me is only good in like very specific, like interpersonal situations. and even then it's not good for all of them Right. So this book sold everyone hold ono your hats T million copies in twenty twenty five Shees us. And I think there's a reason. You know, cat's mouth still hasn't shut. Devastated. I know. upset. I know It's so depressing, but it totally makes sense because go ahead, Matt, I' cut you off. I just think that, yes, like Mel Robbins is a talented grifter. But also, we are living in a political environment that has people so thoroughly disenfranchised from the power of collectivism, from the power of tackling systemic change, and really from power at all. And I think that creates an emotional vacuum for quote unquote advice like this, because if people consciously or otherwise feel like they have no power to affect the world around them I think it makes sense that you will just want to take all of that And turn it inward, which to me is so depressing. It's so depressing because it's like so many great nonfiction books like really struggled to get even a couple thousand copies sold, evenven a couple like hundred selling a few hundred copies of a book can be really, really hard. So like when me trying to apply the let them theory to hearing the information that there were ten million copies of book, I'm just like them spend thirty dollars on a hardcover of this book instead of like something that will teach them anything I know. This is why we podcast Exactly for the Revolution we podcast. The only good thing about so many people buying this book is that it makes money for the publishers so that they they can pay for books that aren't going to sell a lot of copies. Like that's the good news about Runaway bestsellers is they pay for other authors, but even still, it's it's disconcerting. Absolutely. I should add Let them is only the first part of her theory, which is you, maybe not her theory. The second part she says is let me Let them is about not allowing other people's behavior to bother you Let me is about, quote taking responsibility for what you do next from the book quote Let me stop expecting other people to always include me Let me take responsibility for what I want in life let me figure out the deeper issue that I need to look at just remarkably vague Let me be more proactive about reaching out to people. Let me invite people to do something this week. She continue, you get the point. Let me, she says, is essential to make sure that let them doesn't make you feel lonely or isolated. I don't know. I kind of feel like the people she was around at this point were like You have to try to insert something in here that doesn't make the readers of this book total narcissists Yeah. and like she tried She's like, here's a little bit of praxis as a treat. Yeah, that's right, that's right. I also feel like the psychic damage of her friends going on this weekend trip like exists throughout this the undercurrent of this entire book. and I'm like I feel like this is just totally me guessing here, but I'm like, it sounds based on this paragraph, like the problem was that you weren't being proactive in those friendships. But like instead of doing that, you wrote an entire book about it and sold ten million copies, like, did you get invited to the next girl's trip? This is all, of course, assuming that that story is actually true. Right, And she didn't just make it up. Which kind of brings me to the plagiarism accusations because we already know that when she first posted the video, she was like, I just heard about the Let them theory. And then it goes viral so she publishes a book where she says, I invented the Let them theory when my daughter told me Let them Here is what we know. In twenty nineteen four years before Mel Robbins publishes The Let them Theory. Cassie Phillips was a struggling writer when she wrote and published online a poem called let them. It's kind of long, but it starts just let them If they want to choose something or someone over you, let them. If they want to go weeks without talking to you, let them. If they are okay with never seeing you, let them. If they are okay with always putting themselves first, let them. If they are showing you who they are and not what you perceive them to be, let them She goes on U you know, kind of sounds familiar. The poem goes viral on social media in September of twenty twenty two. and in may twenty twenty three is when Mel Robbins first posted that TikTok where she had quote, just heard about something called the Let them Theory. I just heard about this thing called the Let them Theory. In May of twenty twenty four Prior to the release of Mel's book, Mel tried to trademark Let them for books, apparel, coaching, and online content. Now to my understanding, those trademarks are still pending, but I also included here another passage from the book because I just thought this was like so on the money in a way that Mel Robins probably didn't intend. Every business has a formula, follow it I say that because one of the things I see people get hung up on all the time is this belief that I need to be different That is a fancy way to say that you're afraid Other people will think that you copied this Reading this for the first time, everyone. This is an example of how your fear of what other people think holds you back from following the most obvious, easiest and most proven path to success. Let them think you copy them because you did and they copied the formula from someone else because they did. Okaykay But youre but you're gonna trademark it though so no one else What I want to give you my personal theory of what happened here. And this is of course alleged, Mel Robins, please don't sue me. You don't you have enough money U I think what happened was she probably has a team of people that scours the internet for things that she could post about. Maybe they come up with their own ideas too, but I feel like they probably look for a lot of things that they can gather and be like, how can we repackage this in a way that's like a little Mill Robinsy I feel like if I had to guess someone from her team probably found this poem when it went viral and was like, we can probably make this little meel Robinsy. Let's talk about how you just discovered the Let them theory And then of course it went really viral. She can't really justify writing a whole book that'll sell millions of copies from someone else's idea So she has to like retroactively create a story where her daughter told her to let her son get her tuucks dirty, get his tucks dirty, and then it's like your own thing. And even if like, and I think they say this on the if books could kill podcasts, like if she had like absorbed it in her like primordial stew And like forgot that she found it from someone else. When it comes up that way, you should be like, oh my God, like I did not realize it came from this poem. like I heard it from my daughter and I thought that was really interesting. Like there are so many ways to handle that with a little bit of grace when you have so much money, when you're so successful that is just it's just so O onlyly the creator of the let them theory would be like, no, Let me. No, she's at this point in her career where she could Continue making money while also devoting most of her time to spotlighting other people and helping them grow their careers. But she's like, let me make money off of it by myself. So So Mel Robbins has vehemently denied the claim that this was plagiarized, but it has become such a thing online where so many people believe that it was plagiarized. There was a long form Atlantic article that was published about this And even if Mel Robins, even if she really genuinely believed that she didn't plagiarize it, she could as a PR move, for example, pay this writer a million dollars. Mel Robins is so rich that she could pay this writer a million dollars. The public would think that Mel Robbins was a goddess for doing this char charitable act And literally Mel Robins would feel nothing financially. Like that's the part that I just can't, It's like, I don't know, am I crazy? Let me be. I think she feels and this is probably true that if she opens up the doorway to like crediting where she gets these ideas from, then it's gonna be really hard to shut that door because then people are gonna to be like you've gotten all of your ideas from like viral posts on the internet. And you know, here's what I will also say about let them is like even Cassie Phillips version, like I do think the syntax that Mel Robbins is using around let them theory seems to be pretty obviously taken from this viral poem But also, you know, none of this is original thought. Just like all of Mel Robins's other advice, it's just like really basic therapy concepts branded for like the girl boss audience and repackaged and remarketed And the thing that I thought of the whole time that I was reading this book is, do you guys know the Sererenity Prayer? Yes. Catholic school alumni here. so I don't know why I know the Sererenity Prayer. I think just because it's like it's on so many like live laugh love. Like I think I've had it like framed in Airnb before, you know what I mean? Yeah. And if you've seen anything about like recovery or AA, they always do the Serity player at the end of like the episodes and stuff like that. Goes like this God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. courage to change the things I can. and wisdom to know the difference. That's the let them theory. Yeah. The Serenity prayer, I feel like goes way harder than the let them 'cause the Serenity Prayer, I'm like it's got some juice behind it. Yeah. The wisdom and know the difference is like, w, that's a good. Exactly. I feel like the Let them theory is just like a dumbed down version of it that does not even capture the nuance of the original sentiment. I was also, I was reading the Wikipedia page for the Serenity Prayer and that goes back even further A first century Greek Stoic philosopher, Epictetus wrote, Make the best use of what is in your power and take the rest as it happens. Some things are up to us and some things are not up to us. The eighth century Indian Buddhist scholar Shanadeeva wrote, If there's a remedy when trouble strikes, what reason is there for dejection And if there is no help for it, what use is there being glum beautifully writt And then the eleventh century Jewish philosopher Solomon Ibn Guburll apologies on pronunciation, wrote, at the head of all understanding is distinguishing between what is and what cannot be and the consoling of what is not in our power to change AKA, the let them theory, it's just this's just we've always had this. We've always had this. And don't forget the nineteen eighty eight Bobby McFaron song, Don't Wry, be happy one of the classic pieces of let them theory. I guess like, you know, it's not illegal for Mel Robins to take a very, very, very basic philosophical concept that's always existed repackage it with like a you know, nice lime green cover. but I think yeah, it's just like the tradeemarking, the like she talks about it in every interview. like created this thing and it's completely changed the world. I mean, even on the cover of this book, which I have sitting behind me, at the top of the cover of the book, it says a life changing tool that millions of people can't stop talking about I mean, evidently, we are sitting here talking about it, so Like I said, I read a lot of the book and Most of it is just repeating this one piece of advice. and applying it to many different situations But it was like a little green eggs and ham. like Would you let them in a box? Would you let them with a fox? Would you let them in a house Would you let them with a mouse. These were some real Real examples at a checkout line and the person in front of you is being slow on a plane and someone next to you is coughing This is an actual quote from the book. So how do you use the let them theory to get someone to stop coughing? You don't You have to let them cough. Let them Empasis hers. Yeah. Let them. You might be wondering how let them could apply to your career? Here's Mel telling you what to do when your boss won't give you the promotion you deserve. I know it's tough to hear becausecause it's true Yes, it's not fair. Yes, you've earned the promotion and yes, you deserve to be angry about it. But let me ask you this question Who is responsible for your career? That's right You are. It's time for the let me part fixitting on your current situation and start focusing on finding a better opportunity, you lazy g Zer. Okay, right now there's an amazing job with a kick ass boss, a better salary and a desk next to a window waiting for you to come and find it. Health insurance, we can't say. Y company is not the only company on this planet And there's a million bosses out there who would be ecstatic to help advance your career Let me go get it I don't think that's true. It's not not true. It's not true. L there are a million bosses out there. There are not a million bosses out there who want to help you advance your career. Like most bosses I don't think are that great, let alone like going to help you advance your career whatever that means. And like dying for you to come and take the office next to the window with a higher salary than you currently have. It's prosperity gospel. It's not true I was listening recently to an interview that Breaking Points on YouTube did with this recent college graduate. who had gone viral because he was telling the story. He was, I believe, like a software engineer or like something. He I guess like last month graduated from college and got the degree that of course, everyone for the last twenty years told young kids to get. and he applied to a hundred jobs. And I think he got like one interview and of course did not get that job. And I believe that the one interview that he did get was for unpaid position. So tellell me how that works. So it's just, I mean, it's just literally not true. This just pisses me off so much because this only serves A to enrich Mel Robbins and B to make everyone else feel terribly about the fact that they are systematically disadvantaged, but actually Mel Robins is telling you that it's your fault, and you're not trying hard enough And you applied to one hundred jobs and got one interview? well maybe you applied to one hundred and one lazy fucking non binary college student, right Why are you buying the avocado toast? We told you to not let them force you to have avocado toast. There are some testimonials on the website from people who have read the book and say it really helped them. And the people who provided those testimonials are Oprah Winfrey. Okay. J Setty. Awesome Chloe Kardashian. Two best selling authors and then Chloe Kardashian's Good America cofounder. Shut the fuck up. Let's shut the fuck up. I will say if anyone believes in the let them theory though, it is Kloe Kardashian. Yeah will let Omar smoke the crack That's a ring endorsement She definitely a let them theory. That's what is really so bonkers is the fact that like this type of celebrity endorsement also clearly works so well. And I'm like, Oprah doesn't need another theory. Oprah like has figured it out. I pr. These types of books and this type of advice only really works with working in quotation markarks if you have already made it, if you are already very successful, if you already have the kind of job where you have that sort of mobility to accept better offers, then yeah, this is a great book for you, but the vast, vast vast majority of people are Yeah. And I know I joke about it, but I do keep bringing up health carere because that is a huge part of why people stay in jobs these days is because they need health insurance because it's so expensive and only going to get more so. And especially when you have an audience that's mostly women, it's like women need to have regular checkups, Paps so many things that are super important. And the complete omission of that is just so telling. as like that she doesn't even see in her reality. It's also like a lot of the language that comes up in the positive reviews, including from Chloe Kardashian, is that the book is really freeing and that the book is freedom and that the book like like it gives the whole game away, right? You're not even saying that you put the book into practice. You're just saying that the book made you feel better. It made you feel freer. It made you feel like like you could do things. It's all literally just like psycho speak. You might be wondering what the let them theory has to say about politics Mel writes So How do you use the Let them theory to change the state of politics at a local, national, or global level You don't No The school board has already decided The Senate has voted These are the two candidates running The election is over It's tied up in the courts let them You can't change what just happened. But I never said you couldn't change the future Does it seem overwhelming? Yes Does it feel like it won't make a difference Yes, do it anyway Let me stay engaged and vocal on issues I care about do something that can change the future of my local, national, and global politics. Don't sit around and wait for someone else to clean up the mess that you see Girl, what Like that defeat is screed in them, but you know, you should still try a little bit. Just try a little bit. It'll help, maybe, who could say? She goes on in the following paragraphs to like make offhanded mentions of like, vote if you care that much and like run for office Which is not bad advice. I think she's clearly reached a place with the let them theory where she realizes that the let them theory doesn't fucking apply to the world like this. and so she's like Well, if you really care that much about it run for office and it's hard, but you can do something by doing something. And I'm just like, whatever. Have you thought about waking up thirty minutes earlier to start canvasing so you could do something about it It's also really telling to me that like by using the let them theory as it relates to politics, you could advance a slate of policies that ruins other people's lives So then how would the let them theory work for them? Because with that version of the let them theory, you're cutting off everyone else's ability to use the let them theory. If you've let yourself ban abortion, then what is someone who's pregnant and doesn't w want to be pregnant anymore get to do what's their let them theory? likeike just let them force me to have this child? L it's just Let them ban abortion and by letting them You will allow yourself to let me figure out what I do next What are you talking about? what are What's going on? That's the roule now, okay? That's the goal. She writes like three chapters on like people are judging you, let them, which I think is generally okay advice. She says the book them out, wear what you want to wear, go surf all day, go back to school, drop out of school, get a dog, book the trip, stop drinking Embrace your sexuality. A Take the path that you've been scared to follow. Okay, happappy Pride from Mel Robbins, everyone. Yeah. That's like an episode of glee. That's good advice. L I don't think I needed to buy let them for Mel Robins to tell me to embrace my sexuality, but that's good advice. I wantan to give her credit her credits due. Like you know, if people are judging you, yeah, let them judge you But again, it's just so vague that I also came back to thinking about antiv vaxers because it's so just afraid to Engage with a reality that you of course could read this if you were an antiv vaxxer and feel very empowered about your decision to endanger the people around you. It's also like take one of these as an example. Wear what you wna wear. What if you like violate your school or workplace's dress code and then you get fired or suspended? Like how is that gonna? Like it's just like, it doesn't work. It doesn't work in real life. It's not practical I keep thinking about like, what if it was fuck them instead of let them? It's just what I said was like And it's like that's actually would be more more interesting of being like fuck it, you know, like like kind of like the Saan Ne Ron's book about the year of saying it. Just say like just say fuck it. but that's just too nihilistic, but it's the same principle, the same idea of like forget everybody else. like just focus on you. And that will always sort of be like you were saying before, this kind of anti collectivist thing and it like how do you evolve? How do you decide which relationships are worth investing in if your default is fucking.. The last thing I want to talk about within the book, the let them theory is One of the chapters she talks about what she calls frame of reference theory. Everything's fucking theory with this And she writes, My friend Lisa Billu, who is a bestselling author, host of Wen of impmpact podcast, and co founder of the billion dollar nutrition company Quest Nutrition, shared the concept of frame of reference with me It is a tool to help you deal with situations where someone disapproves of who you are, who you love, what you believe, or how you are living your life, and you want to navigate this at a deeper level. And then the whole frame of reference theory is just considering where someone else is coming from That's it. It's just empathy. It's like, my mom doesn't want me to move across the country. This is a real example she uses Maybe it's because She's scared of losing me if I stay living across the country Yeah, I mean, that's like considering where someone else is coming from is retty Basic advice. But but this is I mean, this is such a great and like glaring example of how all of this bullshit is just the most basic possible advice, but because Lisa Billu, host of the women of impmact and co founder of the billion dollar nutrition company Quest Nutrition said it, now it's The ame of reference theory. Right. It's like so tied up in like the myth the myth of the genius CEO and like the justification of like why this person is super, super rich, because all of this content is literally just like these people who are so like mediocre, but like just not really bringing anything super special to the table, but they're just repackaging very basic concepts being like This is why I'm so rich Not because of structural inequality or the privileges that I coasted on to get me here, but because I know what empathy is, right Also like being surprised by frame of reference theory, you were a lawyer You understand so like I like It's like, what are you trying to like it's like the infantalization of it of just like the cute little t No, she's like dumbing herself down to reach the widest possible audience. Which is also what something I like to think of as pundit brain, which makes a lot of sense as to why she had that as her background. Wait, but you should coin that as you should call it Mel Robins theory. Yeah Yes. That's a book I would need. There you go The Mel Robbins Let them Theory theory by Katan B. Per today, a link in the description below Me when me when Mel Robbins sues me for plagiarism let up. You're you're gonna take that quote, You're gonna copy, paste it, send it back with the appeal. like She said it's okay. Like she gave me permission to do this. ucking Surviving let them we get it together. Oh my mascar' run. Okay, we got this. We are gonna close the left M theory for right now That was the sound of me closing the lefteap in Theory. Now, when I texted Kat to see if she would be interested in doing this episode with me and gave her a brief overview of what Mel Robbins has been up to. Kat, you said Literally the four horsemen of the Grift Apocalypse AI MLM's Scular Psperity Gospel and Protein. We'll get to AI in a second, but we have arrived, my dear listener ot My God. We need fiber, everyone. Eat some beans. God. Early twenty twenty five Mill Robbins, who doesn't have enough money yet launches pure genius a roughly three ounce one hundred calorie zero suugar protein shot. Mel Robbins calls herself a co founder of the Pure Genius protein shot. In reality This was created earlier on by a celebrity bodybuilder called Dr. Mike Israateel under the name Genius Shot And then it seems like, you know, because Mel Robbins calls herself a cofounder. So you think like she was like on the ground day one being like, let's develop this protein shot in reality I think she got in touch with the people who were making it. realized that this would be a good vehicle for her wealth. and then threw a bunch of money at it and then they rebranded it around Mel Robbins. According to the website, Mel has, quote, been deeply involved throughout every step of the product development She has also handpicked the founding scientific advisory team of world class physicians specializing in nutrition, longevity, weight loss, and hormonal health. Now when I read this, are you guys familiar with that two thousand nine Not to invoke Kanye West, but oh yeah. He was talking about Lady Gaga having just collaborated with Polaroid. and he said, quote, lookook at Gaga. She's the creative director of Polaroid. I like some of the Gaga songs, but what the fuck does she know about cameras That's one of the best coanye bits to this day. Why is Mel Robbins picking the scientific advisory team? What the fuck does she know about protein shots? Like so unqualified, But you know what? She learns from making her own mistakes. And ruining her life and then doing it. So who knows? Right? She doesn't need qualifications because she actually got food poisoning once. so she knows how to develop food now. She eats chicken every day. She understands protein. There's also an element to this, which is kind of insidious, which is like if you go, like look at her like the protein story, she's like talking about how women do need to build muscle by a certain age which is true, but you don't need to buy protein shots to do that. And in fact, she's making it seem like you have to have a certain level of disposable income in order to do this thing for your health and your wellbe and your longevity. When the reality, like she has such a huge platform and she has so much wealth, she could be doing a real public service by showing women how you can accomplish these same goals, like health goals without needing to buy expensive, useless supplements. She's doing it in the most evil way possible. That wouldn't make her money. Right. It actually probably would make her money because she could she could monetize the ad revenue on those videos, but it wouldn't make her as much money as just making her own protein drink, here is Mel talking about the protein shot. This woman would sell you crack cocaine If she could brand it as a self help product, Oh my go. What do you mean? I I shouldn't exercise without eating protein? Exercising on an empty stom for women is because it's for women. information is for a woman by a woman. So I made it my goal this year get more protein And I'm going to tell you something It's really hard to get a lot of protein. Yeah, I know. And I'm cooking and I'm shaking, and I'm smoothing, and I'm cotta cheese, and I'm egg bites and I'm doing what I can. and I'm always falling short every day. And the bars are melting in my purse. And I gota refrigerator so I can't take it on the go. And so I started calling doctors and saying What do you do? I started asking other people in the space. What do you recommend? And I bumped into these people we're working on this shot, and I got so excited about it. And a year ago I became a co founder behind the scenes of this brand new company called Pure Genius that was working on a clinical grade protein shot that is the viscosity of water. You can pour this in a margarita this in ic tea. You can chuck this. You can put this in your kids lunchbox when my dad was having brain surgery and we couldn't Ke him nourished. He could have taken this. We have a doctor who has gotten on board who told us that superrlose her acting to chemotherapy It's one of the worst things that you can eat if you're a cancer patient. Is that true? It is true And so she cited all the research on it. So I've been to the labs. I've been and working with the scientists. We have driven the formulation. Our scientific board has signed off on this They cannot wait to start recommending this to people because we're taking protein out of the gym and into your life and into your golf bag and your backpack and the lunchbxes. It's simple and it fits into a busy person's life. That's pure genius. Mel Robins is going to hell. I'm sorry. Like I looked it up and it's like the pure genenus shot according to this has about thirty two grams of protein Like depending on how much protein intake, if you're trying to do like a healthy, whatever, like mine is ninety two grams of protein. Like that would be a lot of bottles. And you shouldn't also be getting that much protein primarily from drinking like a thing like this. It needs to be through eating food that give you other nutrients because you need some calories. I understand everyone right now is trying to get healthy. Getting protein is good for you, but there is just such this way in which people promote disordered eating through like trying to make it like a one easy fix it thing. It's like it's okay to have a protein shop. like it's okay to have a smoothie, but like you need other things. likeike if it had caffeine, maybe that would be more interesting. Like it has to give you something else. It's just I don't like it. It's also, can I just say like first of all, this protein craze is ridiculous. If you aren't a weightlifter don't need all of the protein that like, first of all, I think so much of this is led by RFK Jr.. Y. And the sort of like vibes that have emanated off of him and into the rest of America that like we all need to be having like more meat, more protein You know, like they've literally like reshaped, I don't know, whatever like Michelle Obama's like my plate thing was around this. feel like every administration reshapes the food, nutrition guidelines, whatever. But Average people don't need, I was like looking it up. M Americans get enough protein. You don't need to buy like every new protein snack that hits the thing thats like costs four, five, six dollars a pop Everything that Mel Robbins does that makes a gazillion dollars, she's like I just, I had a need. I had a problem. It organically came up. It fell into my lap. My daughter said, let them. I was needed more protein. So I called the doctor. No, you didn't. This is a trendy thing in trendy upscale supermarkets right now. and you wanted to get into it, you wanted your piece of the pie, you reached out to people who you heard were developing a product that you thought would be profitable you put your name on it Oh my god, just like stop Gammy, and don't you have enough money She has one of the most listened to podcasts in the country. She's sold ten million copies of This book, not to mention the other three books It is literally like biblical greed. No, seriously, if you've sold ten million books. That is so much money. And like I can't help but notice she's putting all of these buzzwords in here about like cancer and like And it's like you're starting to sound RFK Junror, absolutely doctor Oz, another member of the Trump administration who hawk supplements, like you're starting to sound like all of these people and you're starting to get into and again, like this is no surprise because she does this all the time, but it's so insidious. You are preying on people's personal tragedies and vulnerabilities And you're positioning it as expert and doctor informed. I hope there's not a doctor out there who's prescribing patients the Mel Robbins pure genius prrotein shot.orry, I just can't take it serious. Exactly. If you look in the comments on this Facebook video, her top commenters, like her biggest fans are literally saying, I showed this to my doctor. This person says, took this to my doctor's appointment and she was shocked at the good stuff it has in it and is going to start recommending it to her patients. No, no no no so that makes me so uncomfortable. L it's so unfair because we live in such a fucked up system that it's like, I get it. I get people being nervous, being scared, wanting to find some way to like get some H And that's what makes it so nefarious because it's taking advantage of that because it is true. like so many things, like especially when it comes to protein stuff, a lot of it isn't based around what women's needs are, people in different kind of body spectrums. L we do need more diversity in that regard, but she's just doing it in the most grifty way possible. Pretty recently, the pure genius protein shot got into Target stores around the country And so Mel Robbins did a photo shoot in front of a target holding up the pure genius protein shot. We don't have to stay here for long. I just I saw this photo and I couldn't not mention it. Are you guys seeing the outline? I'm going to throw it up She is holding this protein shot in front of her standing in front of the target logo lookingooking at the protein shot Like it is like a bottle of like youth elixir from God. Yeah, the substance itself We've come so far from like, I have no credentials. I'm just helping people overcome things in their life through what I've learned to like drink my elixir of life And her pose is hilarious because you would think that she just is like She was giving you some good shit. Okay, well, do you know what this pose reminds me of? this is really why I wanted to include the photo in the podcast is because have you ever seen a video of Charlie XEX You know what I'm going to say Yes. where a fan at a meet and Greet handed her a bottle of Rush poppers and asked her to sign it and then hold it up and say gay rights. Gay rights Not only is this the exact pose that Charlie held up the poppper' bottle with The bottle itself of the pure genius protein shot does look a little like pappererss. M The last thing I have to say about these protein shakes is there's like a tweet that's going around that's like, y'all are eating all of this fake protein that has like one hundred calories zero sugar, like it smells crazy in a. Oh and I'm like yell y This would make really unfortunate things happen to my tummy if I drank one of these. Yeah. The poops are diabolical because they don't get no fiber. The final pillar of Mel Robbins' Grift. And my friends, I know that we have been here for a very long time. I appreciate You for sticking with us, but of course, I could not let you go without talking about how Mel Robbins has gotten into Yes, of course, you guessed it AI In early may twenty twenty six, Mail Robbins spoke at the SAS Innovate confonference. SAS is a private, this is according to the Wikipedia page private multinational developer of analytics and artificial intelligence software It is one of the largest privately held software providers in the world And the SAS Innovate confonference is an annual conference held for basically for AI business leaders at this point because it's just all about AI now. In a write up about Mel Robins' speech at this conference for BNT. com Melania Watson writes. Best known for her five four three twenty one method, often referred to as the five second rule, Robin argued that the same mental tool used to overcome procrastination is what can help marketers push past fear when it comes to implementing AI, of course, she would The problem isn't that you don't know what to do, Robins told the crowd, is that you're thinking about it instead of acting on it If you think about something for more than five seconds, your brain will talk you out of it, she said. Whether it's adopting AI, having a hard conversation, or making a bold decision, there is always going to be an excuse not to do something Robbins discussed the human mindset, arguing that, quote, resistance to AI is rooted in the brain's natural tendency to avoid difficult or unfamiliar tasks. Your brain is wired to conserve energy, she said It will always default to what's easy. That's why you avoid the thing that could actually move your business forward For markarketers, she said That often shows up as delaying AI adoption in favor of safe or familiar workflows. In order to change, you have to understand your brain will resist it Robin's advice to the room was to, quote, stop waiting for certainty People only change when they're forced to or when they choose to. So the question is, are you going to wait or are you going to decide? This is so dystopian. So this is the end result of Mel Robins's theories and life advice having absolutely zero attachment to reality. She's saying everything that I say can apply to everything And therefore The reason people are hesitant about Putting their workflows into AI is because they're scared to act and scared to make bold decisions. Count down from five and just jump, honey I feel like this says a lot about where the AI industry is right now as well. because similarly to how they polled in Mel Robbins to tell people like don't leave your MLM, like just keep going harder. It's like back in twenty twenty three when all of these AI companies were launching for the first time, it was People can't adopt AI fast enough. Like people, AI is so amazing that you're gonna love it. It's not even a question. And now the rhetoric has turned into like stop thinking about the consequences of AI or your fears around AI because of all of the shit we've seen happen over the past three years and just do it. That to me shows that the AI industry is now like it needs someone like Mel Robbins to come in and be like, do not think about the consequences of your actions at all. justust go, go, go. And the AI industry is paying her this speech is written by those people. Yes, maybe in collaboration with her team or whatever put it in her voice. aying her to say this. Exactly. Follow the money. And it's so passive, all of it that you could be you could put anything. It's like you could say resistance to colonialism is rooted in the brain's natural tendency to avoid difficult or unfamiliar tasks. Like you could say that about anything. L it's just just a passive, mindless way of talking about a real economic and humanitarian climate crisis. It's so divorce. but I also think you feel this way because AI would develop seventeen prompts for her allegedly, and she could just make a book off of any of those because it's the same sort of circular self like reinforcing rhetoric that AI does is so similar to what she does. It's like you are promoting something that would take your job away in a heartbeat because you're so convinced that you're so exceptional You could never be touched by this change happening It's ridiculous Mm I know I've made this point multiple times now, but like Mel Robbins, like she would take money from the tobacco industry. Oh yeah. She would take money from anyone. She does take money from anyone, including if we get further into the depths of the AI industry, and actually looping back up to my intro of this episode A few days after her SAS speaking appearance, which she no doubt was paid six figures for Mel Robins uploaded a video to Instagram, which was a paid sponsorship she had with Microsoft C pilot which if you don't know, is Microsoft's Consumer AI bot I'm gonna just play the video. Have you guys seen the video? I have not, so I'm ready to be upset. Tod to talk about this Harvard study and the shocking statistic that up to forty percent less women are adopting AI at the rate that men are Women? Especially if you're my age, I'm fifty seven years old, you cannot be left behind. When it comes to using technology that is shaping the way that work is evolving and that your life can get better, oh my God, you have to lean in. And since I've been talking about it on the podcast, I can't believe how many of you are trying AI and what you're saying. There are no stupid questions Now I have a personal assistant. I finally feel capable. And look, maybe you feel like Patricia AI technology makes me uneasy, but the thought of being left behind frightens me even more. It's my responsibility to take initiative and adapt to this new landscape. Exactly. I love that attitude. And I want to make it so easy for you to start. So I'm giving you two specific ways you can use AI right now to save time and money. And all you do is you go to coopilot and you paste these exact prompts in Before we start talking about what she has just said, I want to read you the prompt that she put in her comments for people to copy and paste into Microsoft C pilot She writes, copy and paste or upload a screenshot of this prompt to take control of your money I feel overwhelmed, behind or ashamed about my money. And I wantt help understanding what's actually going on without judgment. Go slowly and guide me one step at a time Don't give me everything at once After each step, stop and wait for my response before continuing. I'll share documents like bank statements, debt statements, bills and income info when you ask If I'm not sure what to upload, start by telling me the three most helpful documents to share first Ask one question at a time She goes on So essentially, she was just like upload all of your bank statements into Microsoft C pilot and also the entire script for this video and the entire concept for this video is of course ved by Microsoft, including the whole like women are gonna get left behind stick, which is fucking bullshit This just happened like within the past month that she is like doing this and telling people to upload their financial documents. And just a few months before this BBC article, Microsoft Eror sees confidential emails exposed to AI tool co pilot. There's been like a number of security breaches with regards to these AI tools, including Microsoft's own AI tools, where like people's sensitive and confidential information is being leaked, being fished like being stolen. So it's just like on a very basic level, it's not smart to upload anything super sensitive to an AI. like a lot of them have been shown to have these like security vulnerabilities The other part of this that really pisses me off is like a lot of people with financial struggles are not struggling because they don't necessarily understand what's happening. Like there's a financial literacy component to it. but the biggest issue is that people just aren't making enough money. Their wages are not rising with the cost of inflation or increased cost of living. They do not have opportunities to make more money. They do not have upward mobility at their jobs AI can't help you with any of that, nor can like most of these financial coaches in the same vein as Mel Robins. So it's just like AI is the ultimate logical conclusion of just like years and years of nonsense that doesn't actually help anyone It's just an automated version of that. I also find it so funny how she's framming this around like women getting left behind. And to me that's especially funny because to get a little game or nerdy. The new head of Xbox, which is owned by Microsoft is a woman. I believe her name is Asha Sharma and one of the big things that she did was say that she was not going to develop any more of the co pilot for gaming because the Xbox audience was so against the idea of having AI slop in their games. So even a company that is owned By Microsoft. has a female president who out of response for the gaming industry, the fans, everything was like, okay, people aren't interested in this kind of stuff for Csole. We're not developing co pilot for consoles So if a woman inpower who works for Microsoft can do that, what is Mel Robins's excuse The caption of this post is, you know what's scarier than trying something you've never done before not trying at all and being left behind. If you're avoiding AI because it feels intimidating, here's the truth You don't need to be tech savvy. You don't need to ask perfect questions. You don't need to understand everything. You don't need to understand everything. Well, you should probably understand some things. You just need to, in all caps, start. Personally, at the age of fifty seven, I still don't have enough fucking money so I need to do this fuck ass sponsorship. sorry, that's not what you wrote. Personally, at the age of fifty seven, I don't want to get left behind when it comes to learning new technology and I refuse to let fear about AI have me opt out of something that will be a massive part of all of our lives, whether you like it or not That's why I have partnered with Microsoft C pilot and not because of how much money they're paying me, because I have made a decision to learn as much as I can about AI and help other women do the same You know who this sounds a lot like that one video from Reese Witherspoon, where she literally said Yeah, where she literally said this exact thing. And what I need all of you to know, which I'm sure you probably do know intuitively, but if you don't know how influencer partnerships work These captions, if they are not written by the companies, they are approved by the companies. You can't just put whatever caption you want. So this is This entire framework, this entire thing of like, you're all going to get left behind That is a marketing strategy of the companies making money off of this Exactly. Yep. And I think a lot of these AI companies specifically want to market to women because women drive a lot of consumer trends that turn companies from blips into like actual like mainstays. And women are not as enthusiastic about AI as men. And the reality is like women are right to not be as enthusiastic about AI as men. Yes. when rock image generation was introduced to Twitter. I believe it was like between forty percent and half of all of the images that were generated were of nude women. were taking women's faces and putting them on naked bodies, undressing women, including thousands of images of girls, children But I don't know. I'm sure people are hesitant. I'm sure women are hesitant to use AI not because of any of that, but because what is Mel rightite? Because they're afraid of asking perfect questions What is that even mean me What' going on. What are we doing? Do? It's so patronizing. And you know, I try not to have more smoke for women who do this kind of stuff. But at the end of the day, I do because we have so much more information about how women are being negatively impacted by so much happening in this political moment, in this government, and in this climate and how AI is going to exacerbate that She just kind of like, but aren't you just scared? Y I'm scare girl has the a planed going to explode live here. I'm scared becausecause I don't have a house like yours and I don't know how I'm gonna be able to ever afford one. Like it's like at the end of the day, like Mel Robins has built this audience of women from what it seems like, from looking at her comment sections, like it's a lot of older women who really have put a lot of trust and faith into her And she she has always been selling them something that I don't think is like really that helpful. but We'll allow that, I'm sure a lot of people have read these books and feel like they have helped them and that's not nothing. But at this stage, she's just crossed over fully into grrift territory to the point where now she's selling things that are absolutely harmful to these women, but they still trust her. And that is like super insidious and that is sad. That's right That's right. And it's like Mel Robbins, she's very happy Ps like this, like AI that will make your life worse. That, as you said, will exacerbate, among other things, financial strife for the vast majority of people. Look at the way it's destroying the job economy and Mel Robins is fine with that, not only because she's personally made hers and doesn't care. And you know, in this creation of the permanent underclass, she's not part of it but also because The more disillusioned you feel about your place in the world the more you'll continue to turn to Mel Robins She can help perpetuate the problem And then she can keep selling you Bad advice She makes money on both ends of that equation It's so gross That's kind of all I had I think that puts a perfect cap on it. There's never really a good time to make this episode because I don't know, probably like within the next month, she'll like put out some other shitty, I don't know. What's like a grriff she hasn't touched yet? No those full body scans that celebrities are hawking now where they're like find out any cancer or disees that you have. I could see her she's gonna have one of those. Use Code Mel for fifty percent Oh she'll probably team up with loe Kardashian, not Chloe Courney Kardashian for like those lemmy pills that she does. I could see a Mel Robins lemy collaboration, honestly. Mel Robins ex push. Oh yeah. Oh I forgot about letom push. That's a de Oh ye Princess and Cat Where can I let people Find your work elsewhere. You can let me tell you I'm mostly here on youTube dot com and I do videos all about pop culture and feminism and queerness, talked about AI stuff on here. I'm mostly on here and I am on Blue sky where I'm Princess M. Weks Princess with only one S because I misspelled it and sometimes I do talk shit on TikTok, but I'm just so happy to be here. I'm such a huge fan of both of you. So this was total pleasure to get to talk and learn so much about this really Terrible an. Likewise, and I'm also on Blue Sky at Cat Tembard and also spitfireneews. com. That's the main place to go. Thank you both so much for joining me on this journey. and thank you, dear listener. I don't know how long this episode is going be after we cut it up, but I'm so grateful that you have journeyed through the weeds with us, I had fun. I feel like I broke my brain irreparably, but I had fun And I love you so much. Until next time Don't let them Fuck them