The Legacy of Caring for Others

I can no longer be accused of being a crazy idealist If what I imagine exists in reality, That's how I felt after I met Bob Chapman and learned about Barry Waymiller company he led Sixteen years ago, Bob saw my original TED Tal about the why and sent me a letter He claimed to have built a company like the one that I described in my work. The only problem is I tend to write about what's possible My vision is more of a striving Clearly, my curiosity was piqued And so a couple of months later, I met Bob for lunch To say he was amazing is an understatement He had an energy like few other CEOs I've ever met before And that one hour lunch turned into spending three hours together that afternoon told me story after story about his culture people and how they were responsible for the reason the company outperformed the SNP year after year after year Now you have to understand, CEOs often try to convince me that they have the best cultures and very often after I take a look for myself, I learn that Well They don't As much as I loved meeting Bob, I wanted to see it to believe it see it I did We spent four days together traveling from factory to factory across the Midwest. And what I saw Blew my mind This unknown CEO leading a company with a hard to remember name had built a culture that could be the model all companies Barry Waymiller figured out how to build a business model and a corporate culture that kept people safe, really safe as well as psychologically safe They didn't send jobs overseas to save money They didn't lay anyone off during the two thousand eight recession and they won't be replacing people with AI This company wasn't built for the short term ambitions of investors but for the long term benefit of the people who worked with and for the company built to last generations. Bob built something that he and I both believe deeply Business can and must be a force for good in the world not just by giving money away but by the very business model itself. The very existence of Barry Waymiller meant, as I said before, that I can no longer be accused of being a crazy idealist if what I imagined. exists in reality I went on to write about Bob and Barry Waymiller in my book Leaders Eat Last And Bob and I went on to become very dear friends and he became a very close mentor In september twenty twenty five, I decided to go back to one of Bob's factories in Phips, Wisconsin. Except this time I brought a camera crew with me I wanted to show the world what Bob had built We made a mini documentary. so that the world could meet some of the amazing people who worked in Phillips and to hear from Bob himself That episode went on to be one of the most popular episodes we've ever Released And I'm so glad we made it becausecause six months after our visit passed away I miss Bob desperately There's barely a day that goes by that I don't have an impulse to call text him to ask his advice make fun of him or talk about our shared passion for what business and capitalism can and must become again. Years ago I sent Bob an email in which I made him a promise What I didn't know was that Bob had that email printed to hang on the wall of his office There is no force strong enough to pry me from your side, I wrote. I am with you always. I will carry your torch for decades to come And when the time is right I will in turn Pass it on to another Our impact will last generations beyond us This is what we must plan for And it's with that promise in mind that I wanted to release the full conversation I had with Bob from the time we spent together in Phillips I want as many people as possible to hear him and his message It will, I promise inspire you Thank you, Bob I miss you And I love you Bob, what a treat oh, there's a big bee. bigig ones Let's move the wasp He wants to be in the show. He wants to be in the show Lost loss gone. Bob, when I walked back in here back in Phillips, Wisconsin The flood of memories, the flood of emotions. I've been here a few times over the years, but I haven't been back for probably six or seven years I remember when you and I first met whatever it was fifteen years ago you told me about what you'd built, this amazing business where people care about each other. And it's such a treat to come back and talk to you in the very place where you took me on my first tour to see it I'm so curious. like when you meet people and they say to you sort of Bob, what have you built? What's your business How do you talk about this? Well, as you know, my first half of my career was very traditional about management, financial results, and growth And through the series of revelations I went through were the lens through which I saw people because I saw them as machinists, labor union members, office people, people work on the floor, all the traditional ways we talk about it And the lens was reversed and I saw them as somebody's precious child 's been plac in my care everythingvery changed for me. So The lens through which you see people affects the way you treat people. Be I was raised that you need people to achieve results. and when you don't need them anymore, you let them go So The revelations I went through that changed the way I see people. so The landens was clearly seen if you see people as somebody preciure child, it profoundly affects your leadership style. My major responsibility to people on our company is to give them a grounded sense of hope for the future. They can trust in my care. I take that incredibly profoundly seriously. I know you and I have talked about this about sort of how being a parent and being a leader are very similar. You talk about how Being a parent, this child is brought into your life and you're responsible for its growth and its upbringing. And in business, a person is brought into your office and you're responsible for their growth and their upbringing. I appreciate that the lens for you changed where you stopp seeing people as line items and mechanisms for your success, but rather that you are now responsible for their growth, their success, their happiness, their wellbe How did you learn leadership? It's one thing to say it. It's one thing to read it in a book and be this leader who just sort of views people as items on a spreadsheet. How did you make the conversion to being the leader you are now A lot of people, you know, especially the people who sort of either listen to this podcast or read my work They're on that journey, you went through that journey. What was it that you were able to make that conversion to be this heartfelt leader? rather than just all head and all numbers. It was a journey, as you said, and When I realized that day at the wedding that all twelve thousand of our team members around the world are not functions for my success. They're somebody's precious child who I have in my care for forty hours a week. It changed everything. and a young man asked me about that time What is your greatest fear b M, you know me, I'm an internal optimist And I had to stop and think and I said, My greatest fear is that we were blessed. with the message of the way the world was intended to be where people would genuinely care for each other and would be dependent upon me. and I would leave this opening this Earth. And what I built would fall apart because I've seen that happen in churches and companies all over the world So my greatest fear is that this blessing we've been given would not live beyond my time. So We began, I got had an incredible team around me called the Empowerment team You know some of those members and I said How do great religions survive all time? know this is how it evolved from great religions And we said they articulate their beliefs, which we have in the guiding princi of Lationship And then they have disciples who carry this message forward beyond the Founder Be it's not Bob. we all believe this is the way we should treat each other. So we said How are we going to do that? We can't send people back to universities to learn to be tr human leaders So this eclectic team for the Whiteboard said We're going to cateit our university and they came up with three powerful classes. that in hindsight we're blessed with because empathetic listening which is the most powerful of all human skills Recognition and celebration, how do you let people know they matter in thoughtful or appropriate ways? And then cultureal service. serervving for it' all about me to actually care about you. So se in the afternoon ser You know, it was just kind of this journey and this eclectic team and we started teaching it. So give me some of the principles that you teach. And I know all of the classes that you teach are voluntary. People choose to go through it and if they don't want to go through it, then that's fine. But people can see the impact that it has on their coworers, their colleagues and friends When they do go through these classes, which is why I know that there's a good long waiting list for people to get into your classes. What are the core ideas that you teach in the empathetic listening class, for example? First of all One of the things I've learned in teaching this because again, it is our team member, David Vinerman, who came up with the idea because when somebody said if we're going to start a university, we need to teach people listen. I thought Why would we need to teach adults to listen? We all know how to listen. Okaykay That is the biggest revolution We realize that we don't know how to listen. Okaykay? We taught to speak. We're taught to debate. We're not taught to them listen The divide we have in this country and the world is because we have a lot of people I'm right and you're wrong. Okaykay, That's the world we see it in politics between our countries And so this team came up with this idea that we would teach empathetic listening, okay which is the most foundational human skill that you can possibly have because you validate the worth of others when you listen to them without judge, not listening to debate Adlson to respond or judge simply listening to valueate the other person. And when you do that, It still amazes me, Simon, that this is eclectic journey we've been on. We were simply trying to change managers into leaders into disciples, peopleople who would carry this forward well beyond my time ninety five percent of the feedback ninety five percent was how it affected their marriage and their relationship with children This class was built to help people function better at work. Right that that they would communicate better at work, Right, right. I thought when you hire somebody The pay and the benefits was in exchange for the present. As long as you needed them, you would pay them, but when you didn't need them, you'd let them go. And this changed everything because what we realize is what people want to know is that they matter We have a very prosperous economy, but we do not have a healthy economy because we have deression and anxiety because people don't feel valued, they feel new. So this listening class. It still amazes me twenty some years later that we've taught all over the world. This is not an American issue, this is a global issue When you teach people, listen They tell you the stories of how to improve their marriage and a relationship with the kids. So when we say what's wrong with kids today? So where did they come from? It came from families where parents probably came home from a job where they don't feel valued. Because of that stress and anxiety, whatever and concern about the future, probably don't treat their spouse as well as mus. And what do our kids see They see the behavior of our parents who don't know how to care for each other They may be in love, but they don't how to listen to each other And so it was unbelievable the feedback we got. If your listeners could have heard the thousands of people I've heard around the world who have taken this class from India to Serbia to China It's a universal truth The healing power of listening is profound This is such a You know, we've bifurcated the world, right? It's like you have your home life and you have your work life And we forget It's not two different worlds. It's one very integrated world because the people who are going to work go back home and vice versa And so If they go to a place of work where they don't feel like their work matters or they don't feel like they matter. They don't feel like their leaders care about them as human beings. They only see them as means of production. That stress that they carry, of course has to go somewhere And it comes in the form of lack of sleep, high blood pressure, it comes in the you're grumpy, you're short tempered. and that affects one's own health, but it also affects the health of the family unit. As you said, you know you come home stressed from work just because you have a a shitty boss, you know, notot a toxic person, not somebody who's like screaming and yelling, just It doesn't make you feel like you're madatter. they just care about your productivity That stress comes out at home and that affects kids grades, kids self confidence It's an amazing concept. The logic is so simple and logic is there It has to be simple because it' occurred to me. it has to be simple. which is if you're teaching these people how to listen, empathetic listening so that they can better communicate at work, thoseose skills are the skills, they're going home. Not only do they feel better at work, they're taking their skills and they're raising their kids better, it's having a I mean That a good job and a good place to work is good for my family occurs to nobody.ight and that a company would say, comeome work for us. it's good for your family other than just the money we're going to pay you becausecause that' usually how measure if it's good for your famies. How much can I provide? In my education, undergraduate accounting, MBA, Grice Waterhouse, then running family business. I was never taught, never told, never made aware. That the way I would run this company would affect people's personal lives other than the compensation and the benefits. you think that is the exchange. You give me your gifts, I'll pay you fairly the most powerful thing we do to people is validate their worth. and The greatest source of happiness is a good job doing meaningful work that people enjoy. Back to your point I get in front of CEO's all over the world and I say, you're all worried about the cost of health carere You are the problem seventy four percent of all illnesses are chronic The biggest cause of chronic illness is stress and the biggest cause of stress in work Jeffrey Feifer at Stanford wrote a book dying for a paycheck And he doesn't mean anxious to get it. He estimates one hundred twenty thousand people year die of work related stress, okay These things I was never taught, never madeed because it's really about creating economic value. okay? And We thought the pay was human value The real value is feeling valued. Can you imagine if we taught in our MBAs in our MBA classes that that how you lead will directly affect someone's health. and that if you're a bad leader, there's a very short chain of logic that you're actually killing somebody, inccreasing cortisol hurts their immune system, you know, this slow steady drip of cortisol because of the stress at work I mean, to your point, which is People don't feel responsible for the lives of the people in their span of care because nobody's connected the dots for them. One of the things I find so remarkable about Barry Waymiller, which is that all of your leaders understand that it's not just this mushy mushy hippy dippy stuff that you're doing this There is a deep sense of responsibility to the lives of the people who their parents gave you their children to look after Yeah, I'm in Seriously, Simon, when you look at the feedback I've had all over the world again, it's so foundational to the world. We just don't know how to care for each other. And what we've learned is you can't, as the CEO round table did, you can't ask people to care You have to teach them how to care.. You can't ask people to speak Chinese. You have to teach them how to speak We found that caring is a teachable skill. and the good news back to your MBA program is that with your encouragement and support and the evolution of this, that we're working with a number of major universities now to transform business education to create tomorrow's leaders who have the skills and courage to care, to bring these human skills in with academic skills. So when they leave our education system, they're ready to live in the beauty of diversity, not the conflict of diversity. They're ready to be good stewards of the lives at home in their community at work But it's a teachable skill. And but we have always felt academic skills are the key to success, and we forgot the human skills What was the second class? So first class was empathetic listening, the second was recognition and celebration. Okay, so what are the core tenets of recognition and celebration? Why did the company make that class Great question. Cynthia and I had the blessing to raising six kids. Cynthia who my wife, yes. had the blessing to raise six kids Because nobody teaches you how to be a good parent, we went to classes. And I'll never forget this one class where this gentleman said key to raising healthy kids is you need to compleliment them five times more And you suggest things they could do better That really made an impact on me because we tend to you know, why didn't you get your schoolwk done? Why didn't you get home in time for dinner andead Boy, thank you for being down and dinner. Thank you for cleaning up. So it really impacted me And I realized in my journey that adults are no different Gentlemen are plants said in any one time. You know,r Chapman I get ten things right and I never hear a word. I get one thing wrong and I get my ass to that. And everybody every time I say this, you just see like this in the audience because we have a world where we focus on the brokenness, not the goodness. Okaykay? So what we do through our recognition and celebration program, and again, it's not about F year service to get a appat It's about shining a light in the organization, looking for the goodness, holding them saying, thank you in a thoughtful way. There's a skill in reck. It's not that a boy pay raise. It is feelings, behaviors and impact And there's a skill and we're teaching that skill in universities. We have people for forty hours a week And when they leave our care, they're inundated with the brokenness of the world But I've got them for forty hours a week. while they feel valued, if they feel heard, if we recognize the goodness because When you recognize the goodness of Marry or Bill, and you do it in a thoughtful way in a group Everybody feels good. So All right? KyR culture is continually looking for the goodness and holding it up and saying, thank you. I've heard you say so often we catch people doing things wrong. You teach people to catch people doing things right What are some of the specific ways that you do recognition in the company? I mean, in a place like this. It's a factory environment. it's manufacturing. How do you do recognition here It's very personal. We have basically its called the shhine a light Aard and people can submit to us somebody who they feel embodies the spirit of our culture that they want to say thank you to. And It didn't occur us at the time, but when you actuallyct say to twelve thousand people in the world Why don't you write? and let us know if somebody you thinks li these values. All of a sudden you get these notes from people all over the world. I mean, from Serbia to China, whatever. And the beauty is they have to stop and think about the goodness of somebody else. Okay? Not the number of years of service, not the top sales award justust their goodness. okay? The ramifications, when people see recognized for goodness, you just feel good. okay? Our goal is when you leave our care for forty hours a week, you go home with the energy to deal with the brokenness of the world. becausecause you see you've seen forty hours a week, you saw the goodness in the world. So it's a skill again, it's feelings, behaviors, impacts We actually teach a class on how to do and quite often how to give someone a compliment Quite often we do yes, how to recognize the goodness of somebody. Often we surprise the person and their family members come to witness it And it is profound the impact because for a son or daughter or mother or father to see their child recognized for their goodness in front of organization You can't even you can't meeasure that. This cadence of constantly looking for the goodness in the world, which I wish our media did the expression in journalism, what Geds reads So what do we inundate our country with every day, the brokenness of the world? because that's what they feel creates leaders, which creates income for their media So where do we see the goodness in the? Let me jump ahead a little bit, which is, you know, I'm sure there are some people who buy into what you're saying But there are some people who are cynical that this is all fine and good and hippy dippy when the economy is great But when the economy dips, you' got to tighten the belt and focus on the numbers. And you know and we see it all the time, even well intentioned companies, as soon as you know something dips the numbers. The first thing to suffer is the people. They cut the recognition programs, they cut the spending on the leadership programs. They lay people off. You know, it's the first thing we do. So it sounds like these things are all nice to have if you're thriving. What do you have to say to those companies that That's the first thing they cut. people and programs. I mean, what does Barry Waymiller do? Well it starts with We have a constitution of our culture, the guiding principle of leadership. And the vision is we measure success by the way we touch the lives of people. So we kind of have a constitution that guides us like our country does in terms of the responsibility of leadership sell it If you embrace that and you end up with an economic situation which we did in zero eight zero nine, which you've talked about for many years It opened our mind to a totally different way. So it was shared sacrifice So as you know inzer eight zero nine, because our orders dropped by thirty percent. And I was taught, well, you know, what you got to do is you got to let people go. that'ss just what you know it's not personal. It's just what we do. I once, as you know, in the Air Force asked some of the generals, how do you teach these young men and women to kill? And they said we don't We teach them to take out targets that made bad decisions. They try to dehumanize to hurt they're going to inf dropping bombs We do that in business. We right size the company, and you know, we organize the company They gave the shareholders what they want. Reducce headcount. We dehumanize the impact. Psychological studies show that when people are let go, I walk up to you and say, sorry, I know you just bought a house, but I'm going to have to let you go because we gott to make the numbers work. It is a major failure of stewardship because I tell our people around the world. My primary responsibility as the leader of this company is to have a business model that you feel safe. Okaykay, that you can raise a family, you can have a home. And when people feel safe, you see a dramatic difference in their sense of way they share the way help each other because they don't they're not this's this cloud over their head not worry about Layoffs are a broken part of our society. It means your business model failed You let people down I gott to go deig deeper on that You see If you embrace layoffs, it means your business model failed.. Most major public companies and unfortunately a lot of private companies, but most major public companies have fully embraced layoffs as a regular mechanism to balance the books haveave their business models failed? Well their leadership failed. Remember, very profitable companies Well taught us years ago, you can always probably let five percent of people go and you'll actually do better. N not just to reduce cost, but you know, it's good to kind of take the low performers out So I was taught from very earated layoffs are a positive thing you do for a company because you improve profitability And investment advisors will come to your company and say You want to improve your image in the market lay off some people and say we're going we're going to make more money and Part of it is the investing public rewards companies that do this Y share price goes up when they lay off people To me, it should go down because they I guarantee you when a board considers a public company or private company considers a layoff or you're going to hurt people. okay? You're going to hurt people. They don't talk about the consequence of those people. just they'll find another job. How many weeks should we pay them for? I've never heard ever in my fifty year career, ever heard a human way of talking about layoffs, downsides and rs. but we're taught just one of the things you do. It's not fun It's not pleasant. So my responsibility to our people is make sure you're safe in my care, where we can create economic and human value in harmony And when people feel safe, they will share greater gifts with you. You will attract greater talent. There's no downside to caring. Yeah. Okay. no downside. Some people think It's just about being nice, okay much more profound, like parenting is being nice. Parenting is not being nice to being a good steward of this child in your care. Leadership is identical. and part of it is having a safe business model where they can raise a family, they can count on you and put their trust in you and have a career with you. That is a foundational responsibility. and I've never heard that said before. I think a lot of leaders forget about the ripples, right? whichich is they understand that You know, evenven though they don't talk about it or think about it, the impact it has on people's lives when they get laid off, they also forget about the people who didn't lose their jobs, but they watch their friends get laid off. Now fear is injected into the system. Am I next? You know And one of the craziest things I've seen is companies announce we're going to lay off twenty thousand people, we're gonna to do a thousand a week And you're just like, how on earth Do you think that risk taking and entrepreneurship and sticking your neck out with the greater good is going to happen. peopleeople going to retreat They're going to keep their heads down because the unbelievable fear that that I'm next, not to mention the fact that it sucks to see your friends get laid off. for no fault of their own, it wasn't a meritocracy And you said boards aren't talking about the impact on the lives of the people they lay off, and they're also not talking about how it'll affect the culture. for many, many months beyond if not years. You know, Simon, some people say to me, how do you justify this investment, this cost of caring for your people? university, your classes? I look at them, I say I don't need to justify caring How do you justify not caring? Because people really struggle going from using people to care about people because you know there's a major bridge to cross for most people But I say Nobody has to justify safety. In other words, safety glasses, hard toe shoes, safety no company. Why? Because we have work women's compensation insurance and we want to manage the cost of it. So it's a cost, okay So I would say to you, we don't have to justify safety. Why do we have to justify caring? Because caring is the safety of your soul, that treating that young man or young woman or person in your care as you would watch your son or daughter treated. I mean a lot of people ask me, what do you do about the people who don't get it I said to treat them like you would want your son or daughter to treat them, they didn't do Oh, that would be different. I said, whyy is it different? That's so many son or daught are you treat So the way we see people affects the way we treat you And if you see them as functions, it's a lot easier to downsize L that. But if you see them as somebody's precious child who simply wants to know they matter, it profoundly shapes the way you take the responsibility for your business model how you're going to deal with the ups and downs of business. And all I can tell you is our culture is attracting unbelievable talent opportunities to bring other companies together into our family and our customers love our culture, love our culture. It is inspiring a lot of people because the foundation is I was never taught this As you know, the curres res sers levels Caring is contagious. When you treat people with respect and dignity, it releases in them the capacity to care for others pride you will get, the healing you will get. and is profound. And so I would say to you I don't need to justify this because you know our company which had' twenty five year growth in our share price by like twel percent comment over twenty five years twelve percent compounded growth for twenty twenty five years. our share price. Okay And your share price. we have a very technical way of creating share price that emulates the market And so I'd say to you We have exceeded almost everybody you know for a long period of time We take a long term view. So anybody cynical who says no, but performance, performance performance Okay, fine. What you're demonstrating is that your leadership strategy performs the market If you just look at the statistics that you've heard me say, eighty eight percent of all people feel they work for an organization that doesn't care about them. And if you hear the statistics, three out of four people are disengaged in what they're doing When you look at the twelve thousand five thousand two hundred people work for you And you know these statistics say that they're doing what they need to do to keep their job. They're not giving you their gifts and you're sending them home damage because you were not good stewards of that lifeves. It just changes the view I was taught and I experienced in the firstalf of my career And that's why I say Business could be the most profound source of good in the world if we simply knew how to care for the people we have the privilege of leadving. We have a society right now based on money power and position Ites doesn't matter how you get it as long as you get it legally because then you can write a check to charity and they'll have a banquet to celebrate your goodness. They won't ask you how you got your money They'll celebrate you. And I say to CEO's around the world, the greatest act of charity is not to checkhoot, right The greatest act of charity is how you treat the people you have the privilege of leading I have CEO's on here now and then and Honestly, in general, CEO's are the worst guests because it's hard to have candid conversations with them. They're very, very media trained They come in with their talking points. know, it doesn't matter what I ask. They know how to get their point across They're going to tell me about their success. They're going to tell me about their product. they're going to tell me about the quality. I mean, I'm sitting here in One of your factories. and not once. Have we talked about Y product what this factory makes The quality that you're outperforming the market and this is completely opposite Almost every other CEO I talked to. Well, Simon, again It was a couple of years ago that W University orrganizational Development prorofessors interviewed me for an hour and a half. Normal interview at the end of our half, they said, we have never talked to a CEO that never talked about your product And I sat back and I said We've been talking about our product for the last hour and a half It's our people Okay, I'm not going to go to my grave proud of the machinery we built because we build great machinery. I'm going to go to my grave, proud the people that built that It caught them completely off guard. I met you because you reached out to me and showed me this magical place I got to know you and I decided to write about this amazing place that you had built in a book I wrote called Leaders Eat Last. You're sort of the central character in that book, I would argue And you and I have become friends over the years and you've been a mentor to me. I've learned a lot about how to improve my own leadership ability from you What have you learned even about yourself over these past fifteen years. Like the bob I met fifteen years ago and the bob now, tellell me what's different, what's grown, what's new Well, again, because of my traditional education background I was totally focused on organic growth and profitability and market share, all the things that you were focused on. That was the first half of my career. And I did well. I inherited a business that was challenged, twenty million dollars business went through my challenging periods, but I grew from it and I was doing well when these revelations happened. It wasn't desperation or fail. We were doing very well at the time When you have these revelations about seeen people not as functions, but as somebody's child who's placing your care, knowing that the forty hours you have them will profoundly impact their marriage and their relationship with the kids and their health. It changes everything I get that, but what have you learned over the past fifteen years since I met you? Because you'd already had that revelation when I met you. That's why I met you. I mean, it's you wanted to show me what you would had built In the past fifteen years, because I have an answer. I'll tell you something I've noticed that's different about you since I met you. But I'm curious where what you think yourself. Well, Simon, when you came we were on this journey Yeah And it was just an incremental journey and you came in and you saw something we didn't see it. I mean, we thought things were going well, but you amplified our awareness that we had been blessed. And so what I have learn because since we first met, I've given hundreds of speeches around the world Harvard Case stududy, the tenX talk you did, the book There's no question as I sit here today since we first met that some higher power is using us to show the world the way He meant it to be, where people genuinely care for each other Today I feel this tremendous calling to take this responsibility of this message I've been blessed with and make sure it lives well beyond my time with voices like yours, your books your talks around the world I feel this tremendous sense of obligation. Why would somebody take a manufacturing company in America that makes machinery to show the world what it should be, okay Okay, why would he pick a carpenter to, you know, Father of our Christ. So I would say to you, I feel like profound and it grows because the reaction. I mean, I speak in healthcare, I speak in the military, I speak in Congress, I speaking the Unitedates Everywhere I speak I see the hurt in the world And so I'd say to you what has been amplified is because You open the door of the world Could we have culture here in a traditional business that the world said, I've never seen anything like it. How is that possible? I'm just a simple accountant from North Stain. Louis, running a manufacturing company because we were blessed with a message that could heal the world. And when I look today is we talk The issues we face in the world I see business as a source destruction, creating economic value, but not human value. And I feel a profound sense of responsibility with you and our partnership. chang the way the world sees its responsibility the people they have the privilege of leading. I really like the way at the beginning of our conversation, you distinguish between we have a prosperous economy, but not a healthy economy. We have prosperous companies, but not healthy companies. They're prosperous because they make money But they're not healthy because the lives of the people who work in those companies are not healthy as a result of those broken corporate cultures. I like that distinction And we want our companies to be healthy and prosperous. healthy or prosperous or prosperous or healthy. I love that distinction I want to tell the story when I first went on the tour of all your factories and I saw this thing and I remember saying to you, I can no longer be accused of being a crazy idealist because what I imagine exists in reality. I remember seeing the magic. And then you introduced me to the culture team that was responsible for these classes and helping you implement what you imagined After I'd seen this tour and you knew my opinion of what I'd seen I remember they were sitting there with big smiles. thinking I was just going to say, you guys are amazing, you guys are amazing. They were waiting with a big smile on their face And I remember my first comments to your culture team were I think you may be the most selfish company I've ever met I said, And I remember them all shocked And I said Oh yeah, I saw what you built. and it is nothing short of remarkable And it is incredible. what you have done for the lives of back then three thousand people I said, Meanwhile, there are millions of people struggling at work and you are keeping to yourselves something that the world would benefit from And I remember it was on that day you sort of said b her up and you started on the spepeaking circuit to share what you've done. You've written your book, Everybody Matters to get the word out there. You've set up a consultancy to help companies learn what you're doing, you set up aough for profit to bring the listening courses to civil servants around the country so that they may benefit from the learning so you can help policing organizations, ambulances, nurses, firefighters, that these are the people that you're helping with with these courses. It's been an amazing thing for me to watch This small company that was very insular and doing something amazing that you really are one of the leaders of the movement to make business a force for good for the health of people, not just for the prosperity of people. It's been an amazing journey Simon, as you know whileile we're sharing this message with your encouragement and looking for people who believe what we believe and show it's possible. And It still amazes me in the work we've done in the last fifteen years. you know all my talks around the world every part of the society, nobody debates what you and I are just saying. I know. They just have no idea because we have a society is founded on success is money, power and position.. okay. And so what we're working desperately on is the long term cure, can I can go out and work with major companies and help them learn the care which we're doing through the Chapman Leadership Institute, major corporations, and the feedback is phenomena We're fixing adults. And as you know, one day I said, why do we need to fix adults And I looked and I said, Ohh my God, our education system is around academic achievement but we're not teeaching as we are in our university human skills. So now we're incredibly dedicated elevating the purpose of education create tomorrow's leaders in every part of our st, from healthcare to nonprofit to military to government who have the skills and courage to care. and that means the board of directors. I mean, we just have a society that's built around success is, money power and position. and until we change that People want to have successful life and then they get there and it's not fulfilled. they're not happy. So again, we're kind of self destructing for economic gain and we're hurting people in the process and we're destroying the future for our kids Do you want to know how I've seen you change since I've met you gotten over not in spirit You have the same amazing energy from when I first met you You are softer And I don't mean your voice is softer. It took years before I saw you choke up for the first time because of what you were saying And I see you choke up more often now who was always personal but it's become really personal and you're more willing to wear your emotions on your sleeve. more than you used to used to give me like You know, sort of like good to see a Simon sort of like a tap on the shoulder You know, and then it became like tap on the back and then it became a bro hug and now you hug me, you know, you hug me with love. And I've seen that. I felt that. It's going make me cry Oh I wish Leaders took leadership as personally as you did You know They see it as a rank or position. They see it as power and authority. Um But they don't take it as seriously as raising a child and you take taking care of your people as seriously as taking care of your children. I mean It is not a punchline When you say everybody who works for you as someone's son and someone's daughter? I mean You deeply mean it, you deeply feel it. I have the pleasure of getting to talk to you when we're off camera. What people don't understand is this preaching that you do when you're on a microphone, this is how you are all the time. mean like God you just have dinner. reminds me of that we just have dinner. It like God my God, I heard it It's so ingrained in who you are and how personally you take this. It's such a source of inspiration. I gotta tell you I know people who turn it on and turn it off And you can't turn it off. it's core to who you are I always say, Simon, you can retire from a job, but you cannot retire from a calling. I'm sure you can imagine what it feels like when I get in front of crowds all over the world. And I see people come to tears, get standing oovations. becausecause Can you imagine how it feels againain, all the talks I've given in all parts of the country to have the most healing message that people ever heard. I mean, the reaction to our message universally, stand onovation, emotions becausecause it gives people hope think that some higher power selected this kid from North Stain. Louis for with an accounting degree to show the world the way he meant it to be is profound and meaningiful I don't know how. of how you don't get emotional when you think I'm carrying a message that could heal the world I mean, how do you handle something like that without emotion? I mean it's not an academic feeling It is right down here and you can't say things this message when you get the feedback, the healing power of this is profound. And when look at the issues we face in this country and the world, And I get this exposure to talk to people all over the world and I see the same reaction. It's a universal truth in our world that people simply want to know they m. Big joke of it all Big joke of it all is you are one of the highest performing companies in your category, you outperform the markets, your people love working here. People want their children to work here. You have generations of people working here. I met Lance before, his dad worked here, he works here, his kids work here, his daughter in law works here, his wife works here. I mean, and it's there are there are other opportunities. There are other places to work In Phillips, they want to work here. they want their kids to work here. like To have that level of devotion and love, I talk to people. I walked around today, we talk to some of your folks It is a joy for them to go the extra mile for you. It doesn't feel like a burden or a task They are grateful to give you more And this is what is so astonishing to me. though you don't do it for the business reasons, The connection is so damn obvious. Y people are just better people than in other companies. They themselves are not better, but they're given the opportunity to be their best selves at Barry Waymiller. and the company and they are the beneficiaries because a profitable company means you can expand and take better care of your people. You can expand the number of classes available, you can invest in in training and you invest in all the nice things because the business model works And this is the thing that drives me nuts. It drives me nuts that people want us to give economic reasons why they should do this. rather than re. I mean, I mean it's like give me an economic reason why I should be good to my child. If I'm good to my child, will my child increase their earning potential You know, why not just raise a good kid? and see what happens. Like inherently we know that And to think that it's different here and you're right. the level of dehumanization You're one hundred percent right. and we see it in our nation, right? When we dehumanize the other When we create names to distance ourselves from that person being a human being, we see it in politics, we see it around our nation. And when management dehumanizes the people who work for them, as you said, what's the headcount? I know in your company, you don't have headcounts, you have heart counts. It's very hard to reduce a heart count. I'm aware that language matters. Nobody here says my boss. They say my leader You say all the time, noobody wakes up in the morning to be managed. We wake up to be led. There's no managers here. They're all leaders I understand that the language matters. And you're using language that humanizes people Whereas the rest of business is using language that dehumanizes people. So even when they do do layoffs They do it in such an inhuman way where you show up to work and your key card just doesn't work? or you get an email that says, sorry, just business, you have no job anymore, effective today, right? The more we've dehumanized workforce, the more we treat them as if they're not humans You know, because remember, Simon, I going back to what I said, what I was taught. and what I experienced in the world. is the lens that was shaped by that education experience is people were functions for my success. I needed person, that machine is that assembler that account for my success. Okaykay I was a nice guy. We had a nice company, but I saw people as functions for my success. And that day at the wedding, when I saw those two precious kids getting married And I realized that all twelve thousand more people around the world are just like that young man, young lady. They simply want to know the m. That day my lens reversed and I saw people at somebody's precious child The way we see people affects the way we treat people. If we treat people as labor, as workforce, you know, as union members or as shop people The language of business is broken. It dehumanizes. Okay. And so again, the good news is that we are Clearly, with your help Your voice in the world, your book, your voice, your b is the world is validating that this is the way to go. And we are on a journey to transform and create a more caring world where people feel they matter, regardless of your role in the company that you feel you matter. And when you do that you see this goodness come out of people. againgain want to make sure you cannot ask people to care. You can't go to the CEO of a major company and say, you need to care about these people and say, sureure, I do we're going to have aayoffs next week. but you know, I care about them, okay, but I pay him well and I get good about them. We have to change the whole perspective of our society where we are stewards of the people we have the privilege of lead. Greatest act of charity is not the checks you write to the canancer society or all those other noble cause. The greatest act of charity is how you treat the people you have the privilege of leading. Yeah. That is the greatest. And if we had that, we wouldn't need all the charities to to fix the brokness of the world. You told me a story a bunch of years ago of a wealthy guy who had retired and he'd made Boatloads of cash running a very, very large business. and he came to you for advice how to be a philanthropist on how to distribute that money. and you asked him, what are you proud of And he said, Well, I started this charity. where we help inner city kids go to college And you asked, well, how many kids have you help And he says so far, thirteen And he said, I'm really, really proud of the work we're doing And you said to him I find it confusing that you're proud of charity that you're proud that you help thirteen inner city kids go to college Yet you did it You accomplish that by destroying the lives of the hundred thousand people who worked for you that it never occurred to him He could be helping people throughout an entire career rather than saving money and then trying to help a lot fewer. people A at the end of his career. Yeah this is a gentleman in traditional terms extremely successful had contributed one hundred twenty million dollars to his Z almaata and had heard me speak and just flew out to talk to me. He was touched by my speech. Good Christian man, good values, good Midwestern values. And again, what led to that is I said, what are you proud of in your life And he said this minority student athletic scholarship program I had no idea it was company. so I just said, again, how many people work for your company? He said, one hundred thousand. I said, So you really care about five or six people You can help with a scholarship and you don't care about the hundred thousand people. And he virtually leaned back in his chair and he said I never thought about that. And again, the one other story that amplifies that is I was giving a speech in a church, a major church to luncheon evvent. and I did it as a favorite to somebody. And a gentleman came up to me running a major international organization said I thought my job was to be the market leader in our industry in the world And we achieve that I thought that was my job But until I heard you speak It never occurred to me to care for the hundred thirty thousand people our organization Th then he added You've given me a whole different purpose to my role. So again, the biggest message then is the way we treat people. affects the way they go home and live. If we're worried about kids today, what's wrong with kids today? Where do they come from? They come from our families, okay? What's one of their families parents come home from work exhausted Y. Okaykay TGIF. thank God, it's Friday G get out of that place. I imagine a day with the work we're doing together We're going to go to TGIM. Thankk goodness, it's M to get away from the kids, the spouse and be back to a place where I really enjoy being a part of the team. I would say to you, the vision that we've been working on for thirteen years We have made tremendous progress in bringing this message to the world and to make sure that it will not die with me that it will live on well beyond our time with your work, your book, your talks in our new book, Everybody Matters a new Eedition We have a chance the world that desperately is looking for hope right now. Well, I promise you, I sent you an email years ago. I know It's framed in my office. I know I know. I promise you years ago in an email I sent you that I will carry your torch all the years I have left And then I'll pass it the next first. Thank you for your stewardship. I love you I really do. I'm so grateful for that crazy one hour lunch. It became a three hour lunch And this crazy adventure you've taken me on. You know Because we've said it a thousand times to each other. We validate each other's work, you know I validated your work by saying in my work That's the right way. I know I validated your theories and your ideas at scale And you validated my work because it's I'm just an idiot idealist who writes about these what could happen And you made it real. This is a very large company. make no mistake of it. this is thousands and thousands of employees, billions of dollars worth of revenue international global company. I mean, this is not some little mom and pop corner store that takes care of its people. This is a large operation at scale. and you prove that Not only are the people happier and their families are happier and their communities are happier It is a phenomenal recipe for prosperity. Healthy people make for prosperous companies and healthy Healthy people make for prosperous nations. Bob, thank you for being a light a beacon Thank you for being who you are We should probably turn it off right now with just a blubber fest. you I see your soul when you' talkking because we've touched your soul. Not your mind Y soul This is the way the world was meant to be. And when you see it,, you know that this is the way it was meant to be that we learn to care for each job. Aan, Amen Thank you As always, thanks for listening. And if you liked this episode, please do remember to subscribe to a bit of optimism wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts. And remember new episodes drop every Tuesday A bit of Optimism is a production of the Optimism compomany, lovingly produced by our team, Lindseay Garbinius, Phoebe Bradford, and Devin Johnson And if you want more cool stuff or just to find out what I'm up to, Visit Simonsinic. com Until next time Take care of yourself Take care of each other