The Problem with Short Term Thinking

When you have these kind of positions like I have with the Lakers is you're around these like amazing human beings. You're around people like Phil Jackson Here's the one thing that great leaders, great coaches It's human first. Phil Jackson. he cared about the human being. Yeah. You have to love them in order to win You don't need to win in order to be loved You have to love them in order to win, you don't need to win in order to be loved That is That is about as good as it gets Most of us have had more than one job probablyro even more than a few We pivot, we hustle, we optimize Why Because we live in a world where loyalty to one company quite frankly, has become a relic of the past and flexibility has become a professional necessity. But this need for constant reinvention It can be lonely And it's definitely stressful and hard work So what can we learn from someone who chose to stay in one job and learn to build a culture where others wanted to stay too That's why I asked Tim Harris to come on the show He spent thirty five years with the L.A. Lakers where he rose to become the president of Bus operations and where he oversaw one of the most dominant dynasties in NBA history. He was there for Kobe for LeBron for championships And in that time, he learned something that has become increasingly rare What it takes to build something worth sticking around for Tim proves that the most powerful brands are built through thousands of small, genuine human moments And the leaders who get that do more than lead people They inspire them to stay If you like this episode, please remember to subscribe This is a bit of optimism No joke, I've been looking forward to this conversation more than anybody else on the roster. And mainly because you are charming, wonderful and tellell amazing stories. And the day I met you, I was like, o More of this, please. Wow. That's so kind. That is amazing. I need to makeake sure I send my friendship fees over. No, it's one hundred percent true. Let's start from the beginning You have basically had One job in your life, right? Basically Basically, which was with the LA with the lers for a long time Well, yeah. so I guess technically I started initially at the forum with Lakers playled And then I trend so I was working on the Lakers more of an emphasis on the building and then I moved over to the Lakers mid nineties But essentially, same company since nineteen ninety. I worked from ninety until o months ago. It's rare thing for people to have job for such a long for such a long time. I don't think it's super rare. I don't think you see it. Yeah, very often. I mean, it's a bygone era Yes, yeah. I mean, it' giv giving your life to a company. Well yeah, it's a throwback to sort of my father, right? It's a thrback to. Aerospace you know, start ye Cold watchatch M on it sunny you say that, you know, I talk about the Gold Watch and there's an entire generation who when we say the goold Watch, they have no idea what we're talking about I've tested it. I've said, Hey, how many of you know it wow. So We know what the gold watchatch is Yes you work for however many year decades for one company and upon your retirement, they give you a gold watch. That's what you got. That's what you got. That was sort like the thing. Yeah, there's an entire generation that has no idea what the gold watch is, what the euphemism is. and the thought of giving your entire life to one company is sort of like Horrendous. Do doesnn't That go back my dad's time Doesn't that go back be you did that because then you got your pension? I'm sure there were multiple things that went into it. Pensions obviously are part of it. I don't think all companies had pensions. They were definitely more common back then. But I also think that there was a time before mass layoffs and before quarterly earnings. and before shareholder supremacy where Everybody was trying to build a good company for the long term and make the best products they could And the general business philosophies were, we'll take care of our people, our people take care of us. R. And so there was no reason Bail on a regular basis because You were safe Correct I'm very curus you. I actually don't know this. I know that you played soccer. Yes, I did. And were you planning on going pro? Is that were your thing? What you wanted to do? Did you want to be an athlete I did and I did and I did And that's how it ended up. I went to UCLA. Okay And when I was coming out of UCLA, there were two soccer leagues in the U. S. One was the North American soccer League, was the NASL and That was the league that had Plli oldld Pet. The old pllet. Yeah But like actually old Pallet. Yes,ct Right. withith the Cosmos, right? Yeah. And that league was at the time I got drafted That league was struggling The other league that was sort of propping up soccer in the early mid eighties was the major indoor soccer League. and the whole idea was to play this sort of you know, version of soccer in an arena And the idea at the time was to fill dates in an arena and at the time in eighty O It was on fire in some cities The MISL was outdrawing the NBA team It was on fire I got drafted in both leagues, right? I got drafted in the NSL and I got drafted by in the MISL, right And I really wanted to play in the outdoor version, but it wasn't long for it. I said, okay, if I'm going to continue this, I'll just do the indoor version And I got drafted by the team that was owned by Dr. Buss. who owned the Lakers and played at the forum. Okay yeah seeing how this is going. Dor. Bus was a huge fan of it And he would visit the locker room And this is eighty four eighty five Showtime, the Lakers are are on fire. And so when Dr. Buss came in the lockerom and that's a big celebrity coming into the locker room And I remember this one time he would make his rounds and say hello. and I said, Dr. Buss How many people did we have here tonight Like likeike he would know. I mean he's the owner of the Lakers. He doesn't know how many the indoor soccer team right Drew R I'm sure you just pulled a number out of somewhere. And I said Do we make money You're a player. I'm a player. And I said, you know, I'm like this kid. Right. I said, Do we make money And I don't remember his answer, right He went back to his daughter. Jeannie. Hey, there's this kid on the soccer team is Got an interesting curiosity about the business And that's how I established a relationship with the forum. and the bus family and then When Jannie, who at the time was running She was doing tennis and volleyball exhibitions. She was in need of someone who could help sell sponsorships and her father said, what about that kid? Right? And so that's how I started the forum is selling tennis and volleyball sponsorship for exhibitions and I didn't know anything except just sort of I had kind of a gift of gab and I could work hard and That's how we started I love it. And then all the way up to the President of the the Lakers. Yeah You know, you and I met just socially. know, We just met for lunch for no reason whatsoever. Correct. You really have been on a leadership journey Who modeled leadership for you? Like whereere did you learn it? Where did you get it? Was it a coach? Was it a parent Did it come at work? like because you you are one of those leaders that I get to write about, you know? I coach. I coach my kids. I've coached in the past. obbviously I've played. And I and I played for a lot of coaches And I think that Coaching is a form of leadership And and I one hundred percent bring a lot of how I coach into how I lead team in the business world And I got a lot of those different principles through coaching because they translate so well from team sports ye to business and how you motivate employees. The biggest one being you don't play on the field. correct, which I think a lot of leaders Forget And it it's this notion that a good coach is over there a good coach is over there offering encouragement and and advice and suggestions a good coach is not standing next to you micromanaging every move that's impossible There has to be a distance and a good coach gives it his or her players authority to go with the responsibility. Yeah The thing that I find amazing about some of the winning most coaches in history and you look at John Wooden and others like him, that sports, which is a finite game and the goal Actually the goal is to win that the coaches themselves, these winning most coaches ever, were not obsessed with winning They're obsessed with the team. They're obsessed with the Eespita Corps and all those things and I guess in your experience in sports and in business That's hard, right? That's hard to put aside what is the actual purpose of the end of the season. And to be like, nope, I just care about the team. Like where does that come from in some leaders. And I don't just mean in sports, but in business as well. like that ability to be like It's okay Focus on each other, focus on taking care of You know, the fundamentals, everything will work out like I struggle with that as well. We all do. It's really hard when the pressures are there and the goals are there and you know you disagree with decisions, you know The ability to every day have sort of the long view of what success looks like and not tried to day trade in success. Yeah, rightight. And what I just said Right then I could have been talking about team sports or I could have been talking about business. But there's a game and there's a season Infinite like the infinite mindset, I mean, I wrote about the infinite game and infinite mindset to relieve the stress of needing to play with fininite mindset when there is no finish line. But in sports legit There is an end of the season and you want to be ahead. I think so much of that So much of it is controllable. Now in sports There's talent and talent is talent sometometimes you're just outmatched. so much of your ability to have success today and throughout the season is within your control Right. And it's and it's the coach's job define what that looks like I think the best coaches and the best leaders They define your role Good teams. and good businesses The members of the team understand what my role is. That's interesting. They understand what my job is. Yeah, right This is your job. And I used to say all the time is like if we're a baseball team in the right fielder. decides to come stand next to the pitcher just because the right fielder won't stand next to the pitch We're in trouble if the ballgs hit the right fie Mbe because that's That's the right fielder not joing their role. not fulfilling their role. Yeah. Okay. And so in order for us to be successful then we need you and you and you and you to do your role to help the collective. Okaykay? now now I get it. I understand, you want to be a pitcher, right fielder. So independent of you fulfilling your role as the right fielder For us today, for us to be successful today and for the long term, let's talk separately about your desire to be a pitcher. and how we can try and help you achieve your goal and your aim your desire to be a pitcher while also fulfilling your role as a right fielder. So let's translate this to business now because I'm guilty of this, which is ' I'm very comfortable in chaos. I'm just like, just get it done. Yeah. And you know, when you have a little bit of scale and a little bit of momentum Now all of a sudden you have divisions of labor and people doing multiple things and the roles aren't clear. And I think you're right, especially when people have ambition, they're like, o, I'm going do more this becausecause that's what I want to do. correct. Even though we need that. This idea that you can do both, but by having the clearly articulated roles It seems so basic and I think most companies do do it. I think most companies do a bad job eer most companies or a lot of companies don't do it I was a late learner to this one, like having to write everything down in crystal clear in terms what someone's role is you've had the opportunity to work with some of The Gs in in sports and basketball. And even if people aren't basketb fans, they've heard of LeBron James, they've heard of Kobe Bryan. They've heard of these names. What did you learn from them Like What did you learn from Kobe? Oh gosh Kobe had This incredible ability to compartmentalize Kobe understood what what The goal was at any given point in time. and he understood the role that I Kbe need to play in order for ICOoba to be successful and for the group to be successful and that that role can change Koobbe is the person in that moment. Give me an example. So we have three boys. we were at we were at a game and our oldest Jude he basball player. And he was he was a young guy And Jude's as sweet and as nice as of a human being you'd ever want to meet I used to say to show my wife like, he needs a little more grit. Holistically, we're trying to raise nice young men. Wish she had little more grit. And that nice young man part is going to serve him well, but when he's playing baskball, wish he had more of grreit And so we were at the arena before a game and Kobe was standing there, he would say hello and he asked Jude how he wass doing Jude says good plan d, d d And I said, you know, Cob He need a little more bite And Kobes standing next to the sidelinine Col be standing on the court next to the sideline And he said, Jude This is how I look at it When I'm on the court asshle. And he literally stepped off of the court Nice guy Step back on Ashle Tph Nice guy He said, Dude, you can be both You can be both. becausecause you are this, does not mean you cannot be that I think professional athletes at the highest level have this amazing ability to compartmentalize and to leave whatever is going on. in here or out there. They check it at the door. Yeah. It's the thing I find amazing about professional sports, which is The talent, like there's lots of great golfers, there's lots of great tennis players, but cving under the pressure. And these elite athletes, sure they've got amazing talent, but it's the mental fortitude that they don't cave under the pressure that I find particularly astonishing. You know, bottom of the ninth, you're down by two runs. There's, you know, two outs you know winning run on base and you hit a home run. Like where does that come from? I'm not an elite athlete. I've never been one that level. And but I think the elite elite athletes They don't They don't focus on bottom of the ninth. I need to hit a home run. I don't know what they focus on, but I think all they focus on is What are the fundamentals? What do I need to do in this pitch Yeah? It's not I'm worried about this at that. I'm worried about this pitch. So what they're doing is they're taking the stakes off. Yes. I read I read we always say I read a thing probably sold on the Instagram. But I found this very interesting. A guy who did a study about elite tennis players. What he did was he looked at, I think, the top twenty or twenty five tenn players in the world and The reality is it's only the top Y that keeps cycling through. Right. Even though the top twenty five are still on the list. So how come the bottom fifteen B in the world the sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, best h. How come they don't cycle up to to the finals? they all have sponsors. they all have access to resource They all have the best coaches, they all have the best equipment, they all have the best diets, like it's all even Stehven And what he learned was these the top echelon Um have a love for the game that when they win a point, They go, oh, I love this game. Yeah. And when they lose a point, they go, lost that one, but you just wait for the next one Individually, they save tiny bits of energy because they're just they're more relaxed. They're not carrying that stress. And by the time you get to the end that has now built up and you have way more energy to play. Right. So it's yes, it's partially a mindset. but it's also the ability to just Be relaxed the whole moment and love the game each moment. Correct. and not take the loss of a point. like it's the end of the world. It's a point. It's one point. It's a point. and will you just wait for the next one? Correct. And that joy is what separated he found. the most elite athletes from everybody else and And I wonder if it's the same in all athletes. I would you think so basasketball. There's stars and then there's kind of like everybody else. Everything's about the details, right? It's always going to be about What are the intangibles that you're doing? that that if you can stack those things over and over and over, how many times can you multiply behavior, right? Can you multiply consistently? I was in the I was in the gym once and at one in Austin Reeves was shooting threes And at the other end, a G League player was shooting threes independently And they're both making them Swish, swish.' what's G Lague G League is the minor league minor league of basketball. They're both Consistent M good to a star, starter Laker and a Gee Lee guy, both shooting three both shooting three is independent. Got it Both making baskets, basket, basket, basket And I thought What is the difference? Yeah Why is Austin Reeves, Austin Reeves? Yeah This young man is is is trying to busust through to have the opportunity to be Austin Rised. It has to be the intangles They both talented. They're both making a Bet NBA. Correct. They're both good But what is it that allows Austin to be Austin. I think it's the totality of it. When you're talking about a great anything, it's the totality of it. They don't waste time because I'm trying to now like obviously and now I want to get off the court and come back Yeah because you ran a business. I mean you weren't you weren't in the locker room. you ran You ran the business for the Lake curious you know, is that the same at work? Are there people who Like the way they manage stress, the way they show up as a team Like it's the slow and steady. Yeah. Do you see two extremely talented people, but for some reason, one why won't one rise to the top and There's a frustration that builds in because people know they're talented, then why aren't they bubbling up? Now We're assuming good leadership. politics and stuff like that. But you know, all things being fair and equal in a good environment, I guess what I'm trying to get at is Somebody who's led at the highest levels and had incredible success in business. You know, what lessons can I discern as a leader on how to foster my talent, recognize my talent see the right things or How can I be the talent who's I know I'm smart and talented. I know I've got a good work ethic. whyy the heck am I not getting recognized? there's so much goes into You have to give them enough grace to make mistakes but not so much that they'll get they'll make a career defining mistake Right? You have to give them the ability to make these kind of mistakes that allow them to grow versus a mistake going be damaging. It comes back to understanding the role Do they understand their role? And what you find in successful companies is employees who are in an incredible rush and getting them to understand slowdown That's a generational thing too, right? It is a generational thing. And we don't need to go into all of those reasons, but you know, young people aren't wrong He looking for jobs because companies aren't loyal to them anymore Sometimes employees, isn't young and old, they go looking for solutions when there's no problem because they think I need to do that. and it's understanding this notion between amm I trying to encourage change or am I trying to encourage evolution? It's so hard, right? And again, I'm going to go back to sport. Yeah. if you just think about the greats Michael Jordan was a profoundly different player Kobe Bryant from LeBron James, you know, and I watched that documentary The Last Dance I found it 's Fascinating And because Michael Jordan was not the person I thought he was, right I thought he was this happy, smiley, sweetheart of a man because that was the brand he cultivated. and he was Fiercely competitive guy who will happily take a few coins away from the security guards because he beat them gambling. just fierce competitor who would make up stories in his head about the other players that they said stuff about him in the press just to be angry at them on the court. And is that repeatable? or is that is that like a once in a generation kind of talent? I'm not sure you can teach what you just said. I don't think you can say, here's your checklist of the things you need to do. And when you do these things, then you will be that. So you can't be like Mike. But I think you can encourage behavior That will elicit that if you have it But I don't want to work with people like that in my company I don't want to work with people who come in angry so that they can win. No No, no, because then it becomes they're pulling against it. They're the right fielder who is trying to run and make everyone's bike. you in any in any endeavor There are three unspoken words that will ruin any endeavor. as long as Say more I want you Sim in I want you to fulfill this function for us on our team. If you fulfill this function then we can be successful. Will you fulfill this function assimon says Yeah, sure, of course in his mind, he says As long as I make more money than everybody else. As long as I get the credit as long as I can be in charge and translate that into any sporting situation as long as are three words, the three unspoken words that can undo any endeavor. Be it's conditions..'s conditions. It's unpok. condition It's conditional teamwork. Yes. and those three words We all have a tendency to have them, of course. But those three words, when you put them in your pocket and you carry them with you every day It makes success Okay so hard to achieve. I want to unpack this because this is good. So It's Unfortunately, we can't hear what somebody's saying in their head. So when we say, I need you to do this, they go, A I as long as, right? We don't know what they're saying. I know for me, as I'm listening to this The times that I have said it And we've all said it The times that I've said it, instead of just getting away with it What you're saying is check yourself Why are you saying as long as? And if you're saying, as long as you pay me more than everybody else The question is is am I feeling underappreciated? U A I feeling unworthy or unseen? Is this my ambition that I'm not meeting my own expectations? Right R,. And I think the idea of if I start saying to myself as long as I want to inquire to myself Okay, whereere's that coming from Or maybe I just hate this company and I'm just here temporarily. You know But I want to check in with myself. That' a that's a huge lesson right there. Yes, it is Be otherwise I become a conditional team player. Okay, but yes, yes Let's look at it Simon is the team member and I'm the the man the leader of this team, right Because I think we have a tendency to all have as long as, okay And it's just what we do with R as long as, right? Yeah. And how do I kind of manage that and try to Make sure that I'm helpful to Simon. What I have found useful for me. and and helpful I think, is I sit with team members and I say, Hey, Simon Right now, you're the we're going to hire you. We're going to promote you. You're going to be, you are the director of ABC. Okay. You're the director of this This is what we expect you to do at such a So I this says okay, that's great. I want to do that. And I say, Okay, Simon you're coming into this job. You've applied to be this job for the director of ABC What's next? How does Director of ABC set you up for the next thing What's next after that? What is Simon looking to use the director of ABC to become vice president of ABC? And what I do oftentimes is ' it's a way of encouraging someone to have a little bit of self reflection on their own journey Okay, so if Simon says, look, I want to be the director of seat sales And then I say, okay, that's that's tremendous. I mean because we think you could do that What do you want to do next? What do you see that leading to Andimon says, Well, I want to an astrona Okay. I don't know how that's going to help you, Simon. Okaykay. But if Simon says Look I have huge aspirations as the director to within one year be a vice president. and it's I need to do this Okay, Simon, how are we going to make that happen for you? How What are the things that we're going to be able to do to try to put you in a place so that you can try and achieve your goal? I think what we do is we do two things. We start pulling out the as long as, we start pulling out of the pocket At the same time, Simon starts feeling a little bit more safe to share his ambition because and as long as it's a condition, but it's an ambition R? It's generally an ambition. it's not generally a negative. It's usually This is what I want for myself. Right, right, right. And so if Simon feels that Tim has created a safe space and an encouraging people and a a sort of mentor type setting where Simon goes Look, he's on my side here. He's gonna to help me. Can you do that for every person? It's difficult. It's hard to scale. What you can do is this Okay. if Simon is the vice president and I'm the president, I say, look How can I help you? I'm going to encourage you to do the same.. And the vice president talks to the directors and the director and says the same thing And the directors talk to the managers. Well I think where it is scalable is each line of the hierarchy can take responsibility for the people in their char. Correct. So I can't ask everybody on the entire team, T me what your ambition is. I don't work with everybody at.ct. It's impossiblecale. But you can be scaled down down to the And somebody can say they have to be safe enough to say I don't know. one hundred percent I like my job. I like it here, but I don't know exactly That's allow. I'ming to learn. I'm try to foster instin The LA Lakers are a remarkable organization, not just because of their success on the court, but their success off the court. R. I think you did a lot of things to change and revolutionize place and help make the franchise and the brand what it has become, right There are many things about your leadership style. I only know a few of the stories and I'm going to try and get more out of you because I learn from you every time I get to sit down with you You told me one story First of all, you don't sit courtside You could, but you don't. You have your seats. They're above where the players come out and they're still good seats. But they're back.. And those are your seats.. And you give all the better seats to others And you told me a story of how now and then, especially when you've got a couple extra courts side seats that are unused You will go up into the rafters. spepecifically into the rafters, you'll look for a parent child. Yes who They got last minute tickets or this is what they can afford, whatever the dynamic is, you're looking for that parent child experience and you tap them on the shoulder and you say, come with me And before they know it, they're sitting. court sign of an LA Lkers game What was the first time you did that? And what was the motivation? Probably the first time I did it was when we were at the new arena that we had movedowntown from the form, so we were at Staple Center And we had some extras and I just got I had some time and I thought I'm just gonna do this. I mean, you didn't call up your celebrity friends. No, You didn't know You know. becauseuse you know, sports teams like to have celebrities on the sides Yes. Yeah. and we the Lakers have plenty. The sport of basketball is just a vehicle That's the vehicle. This is the the The sports industry is a business of memories. Like I don't know all the stories of the folks that I have helped over the years from time to time But I think You know, what what if whatever else is going on in their life This is the biggest thing for them And all of a sudden, they get moved down to the floor way, way, way up high because That was either the only thing they could afford or the only thing they could find And all of a sudden on this evening that The parent is is trying to make special It becomes life changing all because They got to move to a seat how that completely changes the dynamic. So let me put on my cold business hat.s a cynical hat that I know other people are thinking. one hundred percent, right? whichich is you're giving away ten thousand dollars worth of seeds Love that you're giving away memories. loveove that you're making sports about memories. but the long term value of the ticket holders who spent bought the cheapest tickets in the stadium in the arena. I don't have a lot of long term value in those. They're probably not going to become season ticket holders. the likelihood of them being able to afford front row tickets within a short period of time is low, that's a bad investment. And the financial person would say, why on earth are you doing this? So it's the games at seven hundred thirty 's seven o'cl six forty five I've got two tickets in my pocket. Let's pretend they're twenty thousand five hundred dollars a piece There's no one standing in line at the box office Who's going to buy who's going to spend twenty thousand five hundred dollars. cororrect. Right. So're going you're going to eat those tickets. Right, Right. The money is going to be the money's lost The money's lost already. So what can you do with that money? R? what can you do with that opportunity And the way I choose to I haveve always chosen to believe this is this is in the profit and loss statement. Yes, that five thousand dollars, twenty thousand five hundred dollarss is gone That opportunity is gone because the game' is going to be played and that opportunity is lost. Right But we move those two people down, All right They become evangelical. Yeah And they tell two people and they go home and they tell and they tell and they tell. The Lakers is the greatest organization on the planet. And it scales R? I believe that successful brands are built one tiny little act at a time It's not there are giant movements but supported by tiny little as that just continue to grow brand. Okay. And when you grow a brand When a successful company becomes a successful brand, then they are worth more money Okay. I'm going to play with me. I'm going to play this back because okay. so the argument is If you it's kind of like exercise. if you're willing to just keep doing the little bits, it will build up. And if you just trust that you create evangelicals who will You know, a rich person who gets to sit in good seats We' tell a couple of friends because you know, I got to sit on, you know, I got to sit right near the court. whereere somebody who, the chances of them sitting by the court in their entire life is close to zero. They will tell everyone And the goodwill that comes from how great this organization is even when the team loses. how I love the Lakers Ripples and ripples and ripples. I believe that. And The cost was actually zero because the money was sunk anywere anyway. Yeah. If you've got You know, few thousand dollars worth of empty seats. you could eat it and just leave them empty. That is an option. or you could M. take the risk to do one of these little acts and you can't just do one, that's the problem. No, it's not you cannot be a one off. You have to do it now and then. Yes. It has to have some consistency And at some point The brand starts to have more power, and all of a sudden you're selling more merchandise and nobody can really point to exactly what it was because the team did fine last year But for some reason we're seeing merch doing really well, and it wasn't directly tied to some championship, that these things, you know, this is where I think economists and and sort of the internet of things and hyper metrics, which is not everything is easy to measure Everything has an impact. And you're experimenting. You're not just you're doing that and many o. That's what it has to be. It has to be You're not taking a bet giving away tickets is the thing. When you explain your why? to the organization Yeah The organization has to have the comfort and the feel the safety to do their own acts of kindness Because now you get them to metastasize, right? Can I tell you a ripple that you created that you don't even know you created that is exactly this theory The first time I met you We sat down for lunch and You handed me a duffel bag. Filled filled with Laker stuff. Yes. more than I or my family could could consume. Right, Right? T shirts and sweatshirts and whatsnot. My friends and family took what they wanted. you know, they picked at it like a like vultures. I took what I wanted And I still have tons of stuff. And so I have that with stuff in it in my trunk I'll go to a restaurant And the valet will come and bring my car to me. Yes. And I'll be like, come with me. I'll pop the trunk open. I'll open the bag and say takeake what you want. He'll hold up an eighty dollars jacket iss like, canan I have this? I'm like you can have that. Right? And I'd like drive away and I see him with his liakers' jacket on. R? And so now, simply because you gave me a bunch of stuff, that I didn't throw away and I continue to give away to people who want it, not just raandos, like people who like, do you want something from the Lakers? Oh my Godd I love the Lakers, right? And so now these ripples of goodwill from the Lakers continue to spread. And I say, Ohh, the Lakers gave it to me, I'm going to give it to you. It's a great feeling. Have ever a great feeling? Have I haveave I ever told you about Cu you being a Laker I never told you ak outy be Pre pandemic, I had this thought for a while. It must be so frustrating if you're a laker employee and you go to a barbecue. becausecause if you go to a barbecue and you're a Laker employee and somebody says, what do you do? And you say I work for the Lakers, first question generally is how do you get free tickets Like not every employee is just like, yeah, I got I got tickets everywhere And I thought in a moment, they're like, like you're a king. I work for the Lakers. No No, I don't really And so we created this program that Id wanted and it was called Cught You being a Laker. And what it was is we gave every employee these two cards that were built out and They look like, you know, the size of an ATM card but cards. And it said, Ky you' been a laker and stuff and had some details in the back. and every employee got two And every card was worth was good for two free tickets. And the goal was If you're out in the city and you see someone shoting baskets wearing a laker shirt If you see someone at the mall and they're wearing a laker hat You can walk up and you can say You know, hi. I caught you being a laker. I work for the Lakers and I want to tell you, I just caught you being a laker And I want to send you to a game That's brilliant. Okaykay. And and the idea is it's evangelical. And the best part, the magic part of it is you don't promote it You don't you don't turn around and turn the camera on yourself. You let it just happen. It's not a PR studnt. No, no, because that's not what it is. It's not a PR studnt. Yeah. rightight. And the first weekend we did it The following Monday There's a knock on my door and Steve who works in the mail room came in what's wrong He said, Tim, didid it this weekend I went out and I saw a father and a son shooting hoops and the kid had a jersey on And I went up and I toold him, I've caught you being a laker and I want to give you this And I said, Steve, that's so amazing. Tell me what happen like I wanted, no, no, what happened Timmy, the little boy start crying And the dads start crying because we can never get to a game and we can't ever find tickets And Steve says, So then I start crying Steve said Tim. Thank you for letting us do this because I felt so Proud. to be able to go out in the community Do this for someone It can't just be The Tim of the world going up and handing out two tickets. This is Steve the mailroom guy going around in the beunity. So now the only rule was you had to share your story and if you could get a picture.. That was it. and then you could get more Steve and others, they became addicted to this. you know. They're out on the weekend trying to find people Because it was it was it was a rush for them. Yeah I think what sports has that a lot of companies don't which is an advantage to you, and it's a warning or shot across the bow for regular companies. which is your customer not to demean the fan, but your customer, the person who pays who buys is right there Theyreaming they'rell and you have that very close contact with them. you can easily identify your customer out in the market. Yes, you know, a lot of companies can't see their customers They don't have daily access to their customers. Their customers don't fill arenas multiple times a week. And we forget that the customers are people We forget that they have families and emotions and ambitions and they become just Dollars and cents and returns on investments And that's how we treat them. That's how they feel treated. I'll give you a really funny example. I was flying home from Toronto And the customs is on the Toronto side. And so you have to get to the airport really early because sometimes the customs insanely long. R. And so I got through really quickly, which never happens which means I was actually early enough to make the the earlier flight So I went up to the Air Canada counter. I was ling Air Canada. And I said, hey, I managed to get through really early Do you have seats on the earlier flight She goes, we do. I'm like, great Can I get on the earlier flight, please go to the same airport. Yep. She goes, That'll be six hundred dollars I'm like No, no, I'm I'm just going to get on the other flight. You know, I've done this. a million times. everyvery airline lets you take empty streets. Sure. She goes It's six hundred dollars I said, lookook, I'm not gonna pay this six hundred dollars clearly, right? So I'm either going to just wait here or you'll let me on the plane. And she goes, well, then you're going to have to wait. I said I said I just have to ask. What you're telling me is you would rather seend an empty seat to New York rather than make a custom happy and be able to get home an hour earlier Right? Im just I just I'm just checking in with you, right? She goes, sir, this is a business That's literally what she said to my face Now, I don't fault her for it. No, because her leaders and her leaders leaders and her leaders' leaders are telling them You treat that human being like a line item on a spreadsheet because this is a business One of the reasons I love spending time with you and one of the things that Ive learned from you and it's a huge reminder. And that's sort of why I wanted you to come on here. Yeah, which is it's to remind us that Business is always human Yes. Even if you're in a B to B space, a human being will make a purchase, will be the client. Yeah that at some point you cannot avoid the human being And the more you understand that people are messy and people have insecurities and ambitions and desires and dreams. And if every now and then if you can find ways whether it's caught you being a laker or bringing people down from the upper deck down to the front and many of the other things that you did, what you are reminding yourselves is to show up every day for the human beings who like to buy your product. The Lakers are a gigantic international brand has a gigantic international fan base. One percent. One percent of the fan base ever gets to actually go to a game it's too right. You have to remember getet out of the arena You cannot treat this like some sort of monolith, right? You have to get out and remember that what you're doing impacts people who are watching you But you don't know they're watching you, but you have to know. you have to accept that they're watching you. and every single's not just rating. No. and it's every single interaction that you have has to be genuine Because o, it's gender It's Jenga rightight? Okay. so you have your organization, you have your brand and you're the person at at the airline. that right then for you, Okay, the whatever airline, ABC airline and by the way, I'm now telling stories about Air Canada on air I mean, that's what happens. Exactly. I mean, it cuts both ways because it's Jena. Yeah. Okaykay. Air Canada's Jena lost a Lost a brick. Lost a brick. You can only lose many bricks. The next day they did the same thing to somebody else. Air Canada's Jjangle lost another brick You don't know when the last brick gets pulled, yeep So you can't play with that. It's fragile. And companies confuse good times for being intelligent. Likees, if the Lakers are winning and you're selling a lot of tickets and you're selling a lot of merch. That doesn't mean the company is functioning. That means the team is winning. Yes. That means the basketball players are playing really well. But you're building a big business to survive when you're winning and when you're not winning. Yes. And the thing is you can't run in my opinion You cannot run a basketball team or a sports organization like the utility You need us Utility Therefore, we're going to treat you however we feel like treating you, because we are a business airline No you cannot do that because then Then everywhere, they're pulling away the Jenga And then one day it falls and it's 's F harder to build it back up than it is to keep it up How did you learn this? I mean, with all the pressures you have to lead, as you said, a global powerhouse of a brand. Because the pressures on you, I have to believe were unbelievable and that Financial ambitions and the pressures on you from the organization were huge as well I mean, that's your job is to grow the enterprise The leader I am now is not always the leader I was It's an evolutionary thing, right? evolved to what it is. Like leading is not a tangible thing. It's not something you can hold on to. You don't get a license. you don't get a, here's your leadership passport and now you're good as a leader for five years until it's time to renew it. And then we'll let you know. I wish that were the case. And so you don't it's a good idea. You don't get that. At some point, I found calmness in in how I approach it. And I one hundred percent and I learn this Um You know, gosh, my wife Sho always always reminds me with coaching. You know, like I'd be coaching a kid's team and I you know, they're not doing this and this this kid's not trying and this and she would say, but you know, just meet them where they are Like I know they're not being the athlete you want them to you meet them where they are and I that and apply that to the workdplace. like I want to meet each person where are but I don't want to just meet each person employee where they are. I want to meet each B partner where they are. I want to meet each Ticken holder with our because everyone has a different viewpoint. There's a French author from years and years ago. Anias Nin And she would say, we don't see things as they are. We see them as we are. And that's so true And so every single interaction is is different taking from Shal, I had to learn Meet them, meet every single person where they are. So reconcile that with accountability What do you mean? Because a cynic listening to meet them where they are might hear that as Nobody's held accountable hundred percent no one hundred percent no, that is the the unspoken agreement that we're going to There's going to be look, I'm going to, I'm going to treat you like a human being Okay, I am not going to treat you like a disposable, changeable employee. Okay, but you have to do your part too. What are you doing to help. B as you are trying to help you. there has to absolutely be an accounting. It can't just be chaos, Right. You know, there's I've made these mistakes has to be ordered. I ran a hippie communion That's what my business was like. We tried so hard to be nice to everybody that we couldn't meet deadlines. There was no accountability and it just didn't work. I over indexed on meet people where they are You know? And what I realized was I thought I was actually doing people a service. and what I realized is it actually was bad for the people who work there becausecause nobody had any sense of accomplishment, noobody had sense of we did this. noobbody had sense of difficulty in like getting through something And so when we started to add accountability to the mix, still meeting people whether about adding accountability, the quality of the team went up, the quality of the work went up The morale went up and we could actually meet deadlines and get work done. and what I've learned is like, People want to accomplish And they want to do good Do you know what people crave Crave crave carrying structure caring structure that's such a nice way of putting it. They do Yeah. they do. they do. People want They want boundaries Look at every child who's gone who's gone off You know, so boundaryless And you look at that and they're like, well they have no boundaries. Kids will push them, they'll fight against it, but they crave them. They need them. There's safety in it. there's comfort in it. Eployees are the same thing acccountability, yes. Sometimes you have to hug them with arms wrapped in barbedire But you're still hugging them Yeah. and they know it Right? They know it because Well you're talking about having difficult conversations. Yeah. I tell anybody who worked for me in in the Lakers You're a young parent, you' you're a young person, you you're whatever If I ever find out that you missed one of your kids games play, a recital somethingomething that your mom or dad were doing because you were At work att work? Yeah We're going to have a problem Yeah. becausecause when all is said and done Whatever took place that one day at work is not going to be as important does these things because these things have an expiration date. However That's the accountability part. And if you can, this goes back to Understanding roulles, setting expectations Giving people grace, understanding that I'm going to see you as a human being and see you where you want to go and how you want to be and what you want to do as a person and I'm going to encourage you and help you get there.. When you have that, this two way street Okay, They want to protect that relationship. And so they're not going to abuse it. So accountability tends to take care of itself because they want to protect that environment because it doesn't happen very often. So good. I'm not letting you leave here without telling some As you can tell I'm not a basketball fan Like I can name like three players from the Lakers, I apologize I know Krima bu Jabar, but that was a long there you go. It was a very long day ago probably before you were there But like Kobe and LeBron, like, I can't let you live here without telling some of your favorite stories of them, things that you've learned from them. Both of them iffere eras, right? Yeah. I mean, LeBron was coming in was Kobe was sort of starting to transition out and both incredibly prepared You know when athletes do great athletes Do their work in the dark They do their work when no one knows That's where the great ones get great Like you see them Right? And they're great You talk about sort of the difference between Austin Reeees and the G Lay guy The great ones do their work when no one's looking and no one is seeing it. That's what separates them. And those two guys, that's what they did. Kobe was ridiculous. I heard this story about Kobe. He retires. It's his last game he has this incredible last game You know It's just an insane capping of a monumental career. And he lived in Newport Beach And he left and got home He was in the gym at four hundred thirty The next day It doesn't turn off for better or for worse. That's just That's just who he is. Yeah, right When you have these kind of positions like I have. We' had with the Lakers is you're around these like amazing human beings. You're around people like Phil Jackson. Here's the one thing that you know Great leaders, great coaches It's human first It's always human first. They care about the human. Read about Phil Jackson. He cared about the human being. Yeah. You have to love them in order to win You don't need to win in order to be loved You have to love them in order to win, you don't need to win in order to be loved. That is That is about as good as it gets.'s You have to love them in order to win do not have to win in order to be loved I love that a couple last questions for you. sir. You've played a ke role in usherhing in one of the most dominant teams in the NBA. When you look back, what memories stand out that make The Lakers, the Lakers The winning is like the easy one is winning Right It's the easy is the joy of the winning You know, the championships are amazing Right when you win a championship and you're standing on the court and it's chaos I used to say to employees Stop And I know it's chaos But let it be chaos for thirty seconds and just look around and takeake it in. And I don't mean look around from a macro level Like stop. on people's faces and look at the joy that they're experiencing because that's what you're going to take with you You're not going to take that you had to run and get thirty hats over to the players. The hats will get there Stop and take a moment, be present and be present and look And that's the joy. of how a fan base can surround itself. on a team The place where I saw it was was born in tragedy And that's when we lost cope than you saw the impact of what an individual Not, not a player who had scored bunch of points. for what an individual can have. ization and how that can bring people together. That's when you saw This team is special, this organization is special, this organization impacts What an amazing, amazing Amazing journe unbelievable the stories that I've you know been able to experience and pl that I've seen in the peopleople have met and Just the people I've watched grow up. in the arena Right? Incredible. You're so good. I wish more leaders were like you. I do I do. I think you're I think you're a dying breed. Whether it's because you spent your life at one company or It's how you were raised as a leader. Your type used to be more common and they're becoming less common. because I think pressure Maybe it's your personality or maybe maybe it's not your personality. Maybe it's We have created work environments that disincentivize and disallow leaders like you and the kind of leaders that I get to write about and celebrate, you know from showing up. And it's not how business should be Have we lost all patience Say more. what do you mean by that We look more like we're day trading than investing. Have we lost pay Yeah, we don't invest. We gamble Investing is like I hold onto it. Yeah and I'm inc correct. L I invest in education. I invest in my children's future.. I invest in the stock market. What we do is predominantly gambling I struggle with this and I've not been in these situations because it's over on the sporting side, but you know this whole notion that coaches are hired to be fired And I think There's a point in time when you hire a coach in any sport, and you have the press conference and you're so excited and there's so much optimism and this coach there is a reason that that coach is standing at the podium that you're so filled with optimism that this coach is going to be the one does whatever and you've had meetings and interviews prior to that where you've you've presumably laid out These are the things we want to do. and this is where we need to go to and the coach just told you, kids is are' going to get there and that you've arrived at, okay, this is the person who can do this. Right. And then After a year, things don't work out or two years things don' work out or three years, at some point you fire them fire this coach. Three years ago, this was the person who was going to take you to the pro. Right, right, right. What changed that now we're firing this coach? and unceremoniously and reasonably quickly. And were there conversations that said, look, When we interviewed you, you said you were going to do these things And you're not doing them, why or The coach says, lookook, three years ago when you interviewed me, you said you were going to do these things to support. And you didn't do these. R? Why? A year in, you're saying, hey, cooach, a year ago, you said you were going to do these three things and you're not doing them Why? Well, I for whatever reason or Okay. well, let's get back to that. like Why don't we manage coaches. And why don't we manage our leaders? Why don't we manage the heads of companies? right? Why do we blame the person and not the problem? Why don't we work with them like we work with employees? Like why do we just because I think unless there's a wholesale change in the incentive structures There's no incentive to be. So Well, oftentimes Coaches are fire because it's it's the the way that the GM is saving their They're like buy more time for themselves. I mean, what have you I mean, that's about right You and I could talk about this forever All I know is I'm glad you exist I so appreciate this As always, thanks for listening. And if you liked this episode, please do remember to subscribe to a bit of Optimism wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts. And remember, new episodes drop every Tuesday