Advocacy and Reforming the Referral Economy

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The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone, or anything M I'm Sarah Edmson, and I'm Anthony Nippy Aames, and this is a little bit Cultty. We woke up from a cult, and that journey was captured in The Vow on HBO and in my memoir, Scred. Now in this podcast, we break down the shame and secrets that make these experiences so destructive with honest conversations on how seemingly benign groups can cross into the cultiverse and how to spot and recover from trouble if it happens to you. Each week, we bring an experts, survivors, and whistleblowers to explore red flags, resilience, and even share a few laughs because sometimes you gott to laugh. Subscribe to our Patreon for early and ad free listening, some live Q and A and exclusive content at patreon. com slash A little bit Cultty Welcome to seeason eight of Aittle bit Calty S get down to the dt of the ocean He m Welcome back everybody to partart two with Corey Gentry. Please do listen to partart one if you missed it, as this will make less sense We were just talking about how Corey has not yet seen the vow on HBO, which is shocking I mean, I don't know, that's six, seven years old. Did you watch Tiger Kiding during COVID? Oh my go, did I? Yeah So Tiger King came out during COVID as it did for, you know, we all watched it. and then the vow came out, which was about our cult and our lives kind of blew up. I didn't think anyone was going to watch it Oh shit, people watched it. People watched it except for you. Everybody but Corey watched the Here's a shave. This is the shave output of a little bit. This is the sh. I didn't mean to bail on you guys. No, no, you didn't know what I said. It's okay. But as a guest, we're gonna send you a copy of our new book A Culty, which is Maybe you should watch the vowve first I don't know. Oh I will It's a big commitment though. short season oneook This is a handbook. This is this has got checklists Our mutual friend Mike Alle Kid is featured in it, but they're like little snippets from all of our gu, all of our guests. We had three hundred guess and I think about seventy of them ended up in the book cult, different stories. different. Yeah, but you'll read it and be like, o, that's what happened to me because it's the template that is the same across all the groups. It puts the abuse into sound bites that people can go, oh my God, yeah, that makes sense.' part of the journey of all this and part of my responssees when people DM And I think the best thing that can help people is if you understand what happened to you and you put language to it That's very cathartic and I think covers most of it And for me, all of it, like I don't feel like I need to do therapy to understand it anymore. the language is a thing that kind of helps you understand yourself, get rid of shame, blame. embarrassment, all that stuff. So yeah, I totally agree. That's been there's a major catharsis to I think doing what you all did and you what I was able to do is writing a book and Like you were saying putting a kind a voice to it because it almost allows you to move on from that. section two. and I don't know if you all found this, but it was definitely my experience in the cult world and then in a lot of ways in the twelveth step recovery world afterwards, which is you know, just up an extension of that in a lot of ways is you know, they're constantly narrating and rearrating and rearrating like a certain section of your life. You know what I mean? I think there's something fundamentally unhealthy about that, you know, it's almost like a continued pathologization of everything that's ever gone on with you. and then it's almost like You know that it's effective when they start talking about themselves or their disease in like the third partd. they're like, oh well, that's just my disease and it's always going to be with me blber and it's like, oh,kay care we freely engaging it's afid. What the hell is going on here? This is st going going on, it's not good Well we've only done one episode about twelve Step and it's definitely one are most controversial because of course, there's so many people who've been helped by it, but there's definitely some major problematic aspects to it. I think you'll enjoy that episode. We'll send it to you afterwards. Yeah Thank you.. No. And I mean, I'm a big fan of the twelve Step movement. It's helped a lot of people You know, when what I always tell people is A is not a cult, but there are a lot of cults in AA. So Yeah, well put. That's true. That's the sound better, Yeahah I'd love to hear what you think of that episode. Anyway back to your story. So you've had some red flags Your book really sort of goes into more detail about like how you see something that's wrong, but the pull of belonging and the pull of this new group The affection and adoration, all these normal human, especially teenage boy requirements, teenager requirements kind of overrides those things and it makes sense at least to us as to why, you know, why you stay? What's the rest of yours summarize the rest of your journey there, and how do you eventually? it out Yeah. so I was there from the time and all of it's not linear. I got the boot a few times for you know, bailing or whatever and that that kind of just helped reinforce the identity, you know, because they would six months or eight months or whatever and you'd relapse or know I'd get pissed off at the counselors about something and then would go relapse or do whatever and they would do what they do. They pull the rug out from under. Your friends would abandon you. they'd call your parents and tell you that you were completely screwed So it really fed into this narrative of like, oh my God, my thinking is like really bad. every time I' It marginalizes any potential grievance you might actually have that's real too Yeah, and it marginalizes and pathologizes autonomy. So anytime you try and act like an autonomous individual or you stand up for yourself in any kind of way, which is, you, a very healthy part of adulting in life generally is like, you know, exerting agency over a situation being like, hey, you know, I don't think that's fair. I don't think this That was completely pathologized and then you were kicked out. And then all of a sudden you were out of this group, so you had no friends, no money. No skills. They got you to drop out of school almost as soon as you you either went to the school that they provided, which was ridiculous nonsense thing. that they just would charge people money on or you completely dropped out of school, which in my case, they were like, yeah, just drop out of school and whatever. So you had no education of skills, no Marketable skills, no nothing So it's pretty easy to fall on your face when you're just spit out of a situation like that So then you just go and beg to like literally beg like, please let me back in. I can't live without you guys. Please let me back in So it just more and more kind of reinforces the dependency on the relationship. and then But that went on from fifteen to twenty till I was twenty years old And then at about twenty To this day, nobody knows exactly what was going on, but we all have a series of theories and if you kind of start backwards and putting things together Really what was going on is they started being investigated at the time because in my book, I talk a lot about some of the situations about how people would get kicked out of the program or they'd say, Ohh this person bailed or there would be people that had legitimate like psychiatric problems. Like there was one case in particular I can think of where This poor young man had some legitimate psychiatric problems. They were completely anti medication. They were like, noope, no medication. That's cheating. That's you're not really sober, blah, blah blah. It can all be fixed with your mind. so you don't need any medication. and This person just couldn't get through it, got kicked out of the group. and I write about this story in the book and They overdose, they died. they went out and died because they neither they We're a drug addict and that's what drug addicts do or they were just completely distraught and out of shape over this, but they had a few people that had done that that had committed suicide and the group's take on that was basically like, well, they wouldn't have done that if we would have they would have just listened to what we said. So no accountability on their part, No like maybe we did something wrong These people are here for treatment. None of that. And I remember the conversations that They started having with me about that because one of them was a friend, someone that I cared about And they the way they talk about it was just disgraceful. It was like, yeah, fuck him. Fuck this guy. he did that. He left. He he did this to you. And it wasn't like this person was sick or you know, any of that stuff, which one would think in a facility for mentally ill youth, which is what they were talking about that there would be some semblance of compassion, but there was none of that. And generally in the group, they would use that as a like, S if you don't listen to us, this is what's going to happen to you. You're going to fucking die. So it would just scare all of us. but that really pissed me off and I think it pissed off some other folks in the group someome of the family members started asking questions about it is what we think happened. But basically the long and the short is, our treatment program started getting investigated by the federal authorities. So the FBI started looking at it and being like, oh, we've heard of this Bob Mhand guy before He had a program in Texas and the Feds investigated him there and he left, but then he just jumped state went to Arizona, California, now Tax do you mind to fight If I jump in, I think what you just described as an important element of dogmatic beliefs kind of take hold and What you just described is ople's morality takes a back seat to the group Absolutely. they're when they're able to see a situation like that's awful Someone died and have their conscience and their life force go towards saying, advocating for bad thing that happened. It's a stark indication of when someone has totally taken their own agency handed it off to this thing to justify whatever behaviors that are going on. You see it a lot with the polarities in our political systems right now. It doesn't matter what my party does I'm on board with it and their life force is behind something malevolent, normalizing abuse, normalizing, you know racism, normalizing all these things right now I think that's a really important distinction to have to see how these groups I just wanted to point that out because I think it's an important, really important thing just to That's why this story is so important to protect your mind from turning into something that you didn't sign up to bec coming in the first place Well and oddly enough, it's the same tactic. My doctoral research and PhD work was on terrorism for lack of better words, but it's the same. ideology and techniques that they use for radicalizing political violence and what we would consider political combatants and stuff. So it is a rules for radicals. You know the book Saul Linds. Yeah great. Yeah. greatreat book. I was actually just describbe that. Yeah. Or you know, you can read there's a great book that was written right after nine eleven called Journey of the Jihadists and it kind of just I set up an anthropological study of terrorists and suicide bombers and stuff like that and how those individuals become kind of encapsulated and wrapped up into it. But essentially what they do effectively And you know, you don't know this is being done at the time, but they wouldn't joke about it in the group. They'd be like, o, I' brainwashed or It's like, well, my brain needed a good washing. and you know, they come up with all these little totally little things about it. But it's a very effective form of what I call identity hijacking you know, is that they essentially hijack your identity and then just start instilling like, no, this is who you are, this is what you are. And once you buy into that It becomes very difficult to untangle that because it becomes a D don't want to get too in the weeds here, but like it becomes almost like a sense of ontological insecurity, you know, because if you leave that group or you leave that group of individuals, it's not just You know something might happen to me or I'm not associated with this body of people anymore It's literally feels like a part of you is threatened to die. It's like because if'm if I'm not with these people, then who I am And if I'm not a part of tr, who am I Before we hear from our sponsors, just a quick reminder. Our book, A littleittle bit Cultty, Navigating Cults, control and coercion is officially out and available on Amazon. Signed preorders have closed, but you can still get your copy today. This book is the culmination of five years of conversations, interviews, and research Everything we've learned about how people get pulled into high control groups and how to avoid, escape, or heal from them. If you've been listening to the podcast and want a deeper go to resource, this is it. Available now on Amazon in print and as an ebook for Kindle. And yes, the audiobook is coming soon, narrated by us Just search a little bit Cultty and grab your copy it. Thanks everybody. This episode is sponsored by Better Hel Could be honest about some for a second Everyone acts like summers this magical season of endless joy. 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I'm sure there's it's happen happened a couple more than once, but I also thought it was really interesting how he leaves, he bails, then he commits suicide and you can't even talk about it You can't even share your feelings about it and And that's off limits. like it's the most toxic therapy I've ever heard of because talking about it as a portal to you reconciling your own de. Thats what'm saying?'s what the Birjo is going to make is that you can't You need to have those feelings to have that morality and go, actually, that doesn't sit right with me. That's not okay. Like it's not his fault What are we talking about here? No, absolutely. And I mean, that story in itself was a branch off of one story, but it happened way more than one time there, but The other funny thing that they did with it and I don't know if I think I touched on this in the book, but they were very sophisticated at utilizing humor. So it was okay to talk about it, but you could only talk about it once and share your feelings once and you could be you know, you couldn't be pissed, but you could be sad orr you could cry or something like that. And then afterwards it was like, you make fun of that person So and that's what really bothered me is because all of a sudden all these other people in the group that maybe didn't know them as well as I did or didn't know her as well as I did You know, all of a sudden they'd start making fun of them. They'd be like, oh, man, what are you gonna to do? Are you going gonna pull it Patrick? Are you gonna to do this or that? and then it just It was like this person just turned into the butt of a really disgusting joke. And you know, they would do that with there was another guy there who I later on had to go back and apologize to. He was a homosexual, very like clearly gay. was born that way. It was just it was how it was. And man the and that was completely unforgivable in the group. And the amount of abuse that poor guy took from people like me. and I mean, today, I can't believe I you know, I live in West Hollywood I have more, you know, gay friends than I know what to do with now, but at the time like somebody being gay at the group, it was like, you know, oh my God, I can't, you know, you can't believe that And the amount of shit that we gave that guy because it was all a choice. It was like, what are you talking about Stean? I knew women that would try and make jokes about that about being raped and molested and stuff like that. It was just a lot of it was like really dark inappropriate, really dark and inappropriate. So Yeah, it's it's so wild when you get out of that environment like I did and we were investigated. and then all of a sudden, you know, it was just one day the counselors were like, Hey, we want to talk to you guys about graduating. And we were kind of like, what the fuck are you guys talking about? Gru We had never heard of that term before And within A aboutout two months of them mentioning that we were out of the group Well, like a month and a half of them mentioning that we were all of a sudden out of the group and being graduated and that experience in and of itself was just really traumatic because When you're in the group, the number one goal in the group is to become a counselor in the group. So that was my dream, that was everybody's dream is you want to be one of the chosen one. And it was literally like Oh I don't know hope coming and giving you a blessing or something like that. but Bob would come down from, you know wherever he was And he would come visit and he would have discussions with these people in the group and be like, Hey, man, I think I really think you've got what it takes to be like a counselor. Now looking back on it now, I can see with you complete twenty twenty vision, they were all young, very rich. They were the richest of the rich kids that were in the group. And all of that is by design. They do it because of the network Social proximity to money and blahah blah. all of that was strategic. but I did not get chosen to be a counselor. So that was like blow number one to my ego and identity. It was like, oh my God, what am I gonna? It was like training your whole life to become a ballerina and then breaking your ankle your recilal or something like that, it's just It's like hopes and dreams completely crash And then they were like, and you're going to lead the group. And we need you guys to start going to AA meetings. And before AA was like, do not go to AA. donon't go to anything because they would challenge the authority of the group partarticularly Bob, and then all of a sudden, we started going to these AA meetings. And for me, that was when was kind of my first like notion of like, okay, something's not right here Os I mean, I love alcoholics Anonymous. It is a great program and it's helped a lot of people and whatever, but it is not a sane place, but to say the least in a diplomatic way. And you know it's bad when like even the people in AA are kind of freaked out by you And I was so me and the people that we that graduated with me, we just kind of got spit out to AA meetings Even the people NA were like, yo You guys are fucking weird. Like what the fire mean they would say They they would't say like You sound like you've been brainwashed. Like what the hell is going on? And youd sit in meetings and talk and whatever. And I mean, I must have sounded like some you know, fundamentalists Pentecostal preacher or something like that in AA meetings because we all had the like you know, the recovery Holy Spirit, but they were all like, Y, what the fuck are these guys talking about? But we didn't believe in God. we didn't you know, all of this. So I found myself in AA meetings just being like, what the fuck And you know a lot of these older everybody there. I was twenty years old, so everybody there was at least my age now So they were like, you know, double my age. And to a twenty year old, you know, if someone my age looks ancient. So I was around all these light guys that were at least in their forties, fifties, sixties, some of them were in their seventies I knew nothing about nothing. You know, I had no skills. I didn't know how to communicate with people other than people in the group. and we had a very specific way of communicating that was like really, kind of manic and unhealthy And everybody in AA was like, what the fuck is going on with these kids? They never shut the fuck up, but they were like we were really involved in everything. And I managed to My first sponsor was this gay guy And I didn't know he was gay at first. when he told me he was gay I almost jumped out of his car. He was driving his car. He said something about his partner. And I was like, oh, you need your business partner? And he wass like, No, Cty, my boyfriend. I'm homosexual. And I remember all the blood drained from my body I got pale white and I just grabbed his door handle and he kind of looked at me like Is everything okay And he kind of was the first guy to kind of break through with me. He was really smart Very funny. He was a medical doctor. And he was like flamboyantly gay, he was fabulous. He was hilariously funny too. So he really kind of won me over And he was kind of the first that breakthrough I guess the first chink in the armor was like, Hey, you know, have you ever thought about seeing a therapist or a psychiatrist maybe or you know whatever. And he just kind of very subtly started dropping things into me. but I kind of got spit out of the cult and into the fundamentalist sector of alcoholics anonymous basically the craziest of the crazy And I would go to meetings that were very similar to that. They were Uber regimented, hyper stripped, you know, It was like they'd make you read the big they memorize the big book and you'd walk around in like a suit and tie and stuff like that. I mean, it was really kind of just very manic and structured. But I was convinced that I was an alcoholic because that was what they told me from day one in the treatment center, and they were like, drink or do drugs, you're gonna die And for whatever reason, that was the thing that stuck with me. And because I came from the family that I came from, that wasn't a hard line to draw. within all So I just kind of went along with AA and after a few years of being in AA here, I just was like, something is not right, somethinghing is not right with me. I didn't feel like I fit in AA A I didn't feel like it fit with me Eventually there was like a big ABC special that came on after the Oscars, and it was something like trouble in treatment or whatever, but Bob was on the cover of it And it was this is a coal. and I thought Cazette. So and then my AA sponsor at the time, the gay doctor, he would always throw these like Oscar parties. It's a big thing in Georgia or it used to be a big thing in Georgia where people would get dressed up It's like a dinner party thing, but we'd all watch the Oscars and you know, it wass kind of a u to do And he was known for throwing these parties all the time So I got this was about two years after I got out of the group and I got invited to one of these oscar parties And that was where I saw the treatment thing. So we all stayed and watched the sixty minutute special after And it was about Bob in this treatment center and it was basically like, hey, this place is a fucking coal So of course, my jaw was on the ground and was like, oh, and that caused major identity crisis for me. As you can imagine, I went a little crazy after seeing that and went immediately into therapy and psychiatry. And then my experience was I was like, I've got to get out of this area So I moved to Europe. I was fortunate. I was very good at school and smart and I got a big scholarship and I decided to move to Europe. So I moved to Dublin in Ireland and finished my undergrad and then did my masters ended up staying in Europe for about eleven years doing my education and everything. And it was really when I was in Europe that I kind of really started becoming un indoctrinated for lack a better word. because over there, the Europeans first of all, they have nothing even remotely like that over there But it was also kind of nice becausecause when Id talked to Americans or people in America, other people, they'd be like, whoa, that's wild You know, and sometimes there were like degrees of separation from it, but there was, and I don't know if you all experienced this or not, but there was quite a bit of shame around my experience and stuff too. It was like, you know, I was ashamed of myself because I realized I had been duped You know, I was in this place where I thought it was everything and it turned out to just be totally BS. It's really hard to come back from that stuff. I mean, it really just like shatters and challenges your entire sense of self in a lot of ways And in order for me to rebuild, I just kind of felt like I needed to get the fuck out of Ddge and get somewhere where just people didn't know me and I could kind of reinvent myself for lack of a better word And it was great because in Europe, whenever I would, you know I'd tell the French or the Irish or the Germans or the Danish or whoever my friends were. about what happened. I wouldn't go into detail on it, but I would lightly touch on it And they just thought they their response was always like, that is so American That's so American. you know? So it kind of took some of the shame away from it and they would just laugh about it. They'd be like, o, this would never happen in Germany or you know, whatever. and then they just like it is uniquely American. Yeah, it is kind of a uniquely American thing. So then we would just move on from it. and I was going to AA meetings and twelve setep meetings and stuff over there, but You have to understand overall, particularly on the continent on continental Europe, Everything is just so much more secular than it is over here and it doesn't have that religious and indoctrinational undertoone to it, mostly because the Europeans have had their experience with that. you know, they went through like the Catholicism and the Protestant Reformation. variations on empire and stuff like that. So they've kind of seen it socially, they've seen it and bent through it. So it's just this really kind of secular culture And it really made it easier for me to just kind of integrate and re identify in that kind of society and then you know, because of my research interest in everything, I was really interested in terrorism. and I was really interested in not just terrorism, but how individuals become indoctrinated because nine hundred and eleven had happened while I was in the cult and everything. and then by the time I got out. And just a lot of the language that people were using to talk about like radicals and particularly Islam at the time and fundamentalists and all of that It was this really simplified language and someone that had kind of been fundamentalized and radicalized in a treatment setting I knew that it wasn't that black and white and that there was a lot of nuance and complication that goes into to that kind of thing. So I became very fascinated by it and kind of dedicated my academic pursuits to understanding identity formation and radicalization and that was what led to a lot of my personal and academic research. This could be a different episode. I'm just curious what parallels are you drawing right now in DC? Islam I guess is the Islam rhetoric that's going on in Europe and a little bit right now in the United States something to be alarmed about I mean, I think, you know there's it's just like anything else. There's like religion and then there's healthy religion and there's kind of healthy ideology, which we all have in one way or another. There's a tagline that we have. It' every group has an extreme version of itself. Tally. Yes, exactly. I guess how bad do you think it is? Should people in New York be alarmed? do you think I do think it's gotten pretty bad, but I don't think it's gotten to the point that it's not something that nobody can like come back from or anything like that. I just think right now, it's The thing was fundamentalism radicalization or anything like that is it's always that pendulum swing is that's always driven by like elite interests, you know what I mean? So in like these trouble teen programs, you have to think of them as like their own little fifims, you know, and like If you look at the recovery world generally It's kind of its own meta community, if you want to look at it that way And then within the recovery community, there are a bunch of different subcommunities that kind of are variations of extremism within that and they take like very literal expressions of like the big book, for instance, the A basic texts And, you know,, you know, they're like sex out here called like the Pacific Group or the Atlantic Group. And I mean, if you go to those we done episodes, that's the one we did an episode on. Yeah, yeah. there were like thousands I'd gone to these meetings and I knew the like head honcho for the Pacific was kind of clancy for a long time He's, you know, nice enough dude, but you know, he's a total like He was like, Bob, you know what I mean? And these guys they just They create their fived them. and when you see them for what they are, you're kind of like, o, that's cute. This guy thinks he's like a cult leader and like, you know, whatever. And You know what I mean? You almost wantan to go and pound him on the head and be like, Ohh, isn't that nice? You know, it's a little Bobby trying to do his thing But You know, what you don't see is that there are a lot of people that don't know that he's just little Bobby and that this guy right, you know, and there's an interest in, you know, whether it's like social that they get to be kind of revered as almost the Godd. or there's almost always a financial bent to it where they you know, either directly or indirectly get money from people as a result of it. Look at any of the like cults that have done Netflix documentaries and stuff like that. I always say to people about that, it's like, well, look who's getting rich off of it this Somebody is Somebody's making money off of it You know, it's like the whole Maga thing not to get political order pull it that way or just in it. Generally what's going on politically in the world is it's like, yeah, somebody's making money off of it. It's like, you know, pbs do it as well, the consum. There' a marketing campaign.. There's always some sort of marketing campaign behind these. Somebody's selling something. and if somebody's selling something then that means somebody's buying it and somebody's making money off of it Which reminds me, at what point did you realize you weren't and never were an alcoholic? Yeah. well, that that is tough, that is a very tough thing to unpack because And again, a lot of people are like, God, you were in recovery for like twenty I think it was like twenty three years or something like that before I was finally like, wait a minute The honest answer to that is is I had my first realization of it. probablyb about Oh God, the first ninety days that I was out of the group after we got you know, graduated and all of that stuff. There was a guy in AA who really hurt my feelings at the time. But looking back on it, he fucking trying to save my life. But he basically sat me down and was like, Dude, you do not belong here But you do not belong here And I was like where do I belog? Where I bel? Exactly, exactly. I was like Oh my God, well, if I don't do this and that I didn't know if I was an alcoholic or whatever, but I knew that my life, the family life that I grew up in and the environment that I came from was not a healthy one to begin with And then this group environment, this group identity that they had given me turned out to not be a healthy one. So I was like, look, this is kind of all I've got. You know what I mean? So if I don't have this then like I don't have anything else to fall back on And I didn't think about that until many years later when I was in Europe and people were Yeah, because there this is the problem with like cult mentality and just groupth stuff in general is And it's my main problem with like AA for like young people, particularly, I personally think that it should be leillegal for anyone under the age of eighteen to be able to attend A meetings and stuff like that or quite frankly, like residential treatment programs and so because At that point, if you look at anything from like developmental psychology or anything like that, Your teen years are the most influential when it comes to defining like who you are as an individual So when these individuals start imprinting all of these external ideas on you, it becomes very it's not like an eraser where you just go in and' like, I didn't like that. So I'm going to erase it and like rewrite something else On your teenage years, it gets really imprinted on you. So it takes a long time to kind of unravel that And it was years of psychoanalysis in London of all places where I went to a very famous place. It's kind of where Freud and all those guys did all their stuff, but it was called the Tat of Stock in Portman And it's like a big place for psychoanalytics. And I did about four and a half years of deep psychoanalytic therapy with in like groups and then one to one with practitioners And it was at that time that I really started kind of unwinding the identity thing and really started challenging AA. Immediately AA became my identity after the group And then with the help of the therapist at Tavisk, I started to untangle that. And then when I moved to LA because of a job and all of that stuff. I started meeting people in the treatment space obviously in the recovery space because I was just inundated with AA And I that was really when it all started unpacking. when I started seeing the like economics of treatment behind it and I got asked for like programs on the consulting side, I started seeing how the sausage was made. and that was really where the light bulb came on and I was like, wait a minute, this is all Bllshit. Because at that point, I was like, okay These cult treatment centers are bad. And then it was like, okay, this specific type of ideology is that. And I feel like that is pretty consistent with a lot of cult survivors and survivors, people generally that have been in like radical environments, is it's not like you completely question your identity all in one segue. and it's like, o, boom, here you go. just delivered from this I think for me it was definitely kind of an incremental portion But seeing how the sausage was made and then really learning the like business side of treatment was really what opened my eyes of it. I was like, oh, this is old. just It's to make money. I was like, they're getting They're, you know, you're You're getting something that if you really think about it, addiction or drug addict, alcoholism, like whatever, there's no real hard science to define any of that. It's a self diagnosed thing anyway. You kind of have to come and be like, yeah, I think I'm it. I don't think I'm it And then there's a variety of different things to unpack that. Sorry, I went on a whole little That's okay. no, this is really That to me is where it gets super interesting because I think take the air of the tires of those organizations, a lot of the stuff goes away. and They leverage altruism, they leverage helping people and they actually abuse the people they pretend to help. So to make money off them. And that's the most diabolical thing. And that's where I think capitalism kind of has its blind spots I you check check checks and balances. So I know to me putting language to thats I'm never going to stop anyone who's going to put language to that. It's never a boring conversation for me personally. I also think it's one of the and I completely agree with it. and you know, my friends and you know, all of that stuff think of' this like hippie C communists or something like that living in the People's Republic of West Hollywood. But I'm very much a capitalist and believe and love making money and all of that. But I do think that there have to be kind of curbs on capitalism, you know what I mean? And I definitely think Yeah like healthcare healthcare or some of those places where there need to be like significant curves on it because I think that's like the big problem with it now is people have found out that there's money and indoctrination for lack of another And there's money and attention and any means of getting attention and sitting and having nuanced conversations and trying to think things through is harder for people judging and being you know, flamboyant and being you know, shocking gets more clicks and there's a business model that supports that, unfortunately And you know, either that'll self correct or, you know, there'll be some other problems. I don't know. I don't have answer Yeah. Well, that's kind of been my advocacy since writing Yeah Let's that And I very much believe in survivor stories. And as I was working in The behavioral health industry, I got into it kind of like most things accidental because, you know, I was this academic and then I got recruited by company to move a few of us. We have a podcast accidentally. Yeah Even Cult podcasts need sponsors. Check out these must Hves. Think about this. We work and then we wait, thenen we get paid That's just the deal we've accepted. Meanwhile, everything else shows up instantly. Earnings' been quietly fixing that for over a decade. Get up to one hundred fifty dollars a day of what you've already earned up to one thousand dollars between paychecks No mandatory fees, tips optional. Standard transfers take one to two business days. Instant starts at three ninety nineents. fiveive million people have switched Honestly, waiting is starting to look like the weird choice. I can't even tell you how many times I've had to wait for a paycheck to land to make a big purchase. 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Tips are voluntary and don't affect the service Available in select states, terms and restrictions apply, visit earrnin. com for full details America is turning two hundred and fifty and that's a reason to celebrate This fourourth of July, start your celebration at total wine and more barcues to fireworks with friends and family, Total wine and more is your go to for beer, wine, and spirits. They've got a huge selection with the lowest prices America only turns two hundred and fifty once, pick up a great bottle of wine or bourbon, and cheers to this milestone total wine and more today and get ready for an unforgettable fourourth of July. Spirits are not sold in Virginia and North Carolina, drink responsibly. Must be twenty one Today on the pod, we're talking to Joan, a method actor and scratchers enthusiast. So Joan, what do you like about playing scratchers? Well, as a method actor, it's about becoming the ticket. Scratching up, down, stage left, stage right. So what's your motivation Because your performance feels so real. Oh, I was just tapping into my inner scratchers. In. Yes. Bravo me. Scratches from the Calvoyia Lottery, a little play can make your day. Please play responsibly. M must be eighteen years oldder to purchase player claim Sponsor Baks done, back for more cultty stories So I was working in like a completely different sector, but I was still going to like recovery meetings and doing that. But I had always just kind of looked at my treatment experience of like A guy explained it to me he was like, L, dude, you had a shitty treatment experience. A lot of people have shitty treatment experiences and just, you know, leave it at that. And I was like, yeah, okay, that's fine. Like, you know, it was one of those sections of my life where I was like I'm not going to revisit this. It's, you know, I'll look at it every once in a while, but it's not polite a stare kind of one of those situations. And then When I was working in treatment I started coming across some of these education consultants. and what really freaked me out was I started coming across some of these guys from my treatment center, like guys were that were counselors in the cult that I was in and And I was like, wait a fucking minute, Like these How are these guys still around? There were like ABC news specialists done on these guys. they were on TV I was like this episode aired after the fucking Oscars like how are these people still around And they had just kind of morphed and they changed their names, or they moved states, or they just operate under a different LLC or whatever it was And I was like, oh my God. and at this point it was like twenty something years after I had left the colt And I was doing some like marketing and consulting diligence for a treatment center and I ended up sitting in the office of one of the counselors of the treatment center that I went through, the guy who was there when I graduated And he didn't fucking recognize me. And I was like, this is it felt a bit like Daniel on the Lions D, but I was like, this is fucking amazing. He has no idea who I am. He had no idea about anything. And it was just all the paraphernalia from when I was in the group and all of that was just there That was kind of one of my aha moments where I was like, oh my go. This is completely fucked. L this whole business model that they're operating on is like completely fucked. And at that time I had operated under the assumption that programs like that that I went through were kind of outliers. You know what I mean? that for the most part, everybody in the treatment program. They were like They were outliers that most of these guys just wanted to help people and this and that. But then the more that I started, you know, doing business side of consulting you just in social science research, there's particularly if you do qualitative research And particularly with things like surveying and stuff like that, when you're interviewing people or you're looking for patterns and everything, you know you've kind of reached the point of exhaustion or that you've exhausted your research studies or your interviews and everything Things start to repeat themselves a lot. We call it saturation in some social science research, but it's like once things start becoming repetitive, you know you have your patterns. And that's how you start drawing inferences. And I had been working in the industry for a couple years at that point, like two, maybe three years And I just started noticing the same recurring patterns again and again and again and again And all of these programs were like, oh, but we're different. And I was like, maybe But then Paris came out initially and she kind of blew the The gates alt the door for lack of better word with her confession and the stuff that she started doing. and I was enthralled by it. I mean, I still think to this day that she's a hero you know, that she should be celebrated for what she's doing But I was working in the industry at that time, and I was at a big conference that supports a lot of wilderness programs and there were education consultants and all that stuff. And by the way, talking about drug addicts and alcoabholics, just hang out at one of these fucking E consultant or wilderness programs conferences, these people get ripped at these things. So I was there with a bunch of crashed and o my God, these people They're alcoholics. like I have never seen such like debaucherous drinking in my life as I ever have at like a wilderness or an education consultant conference, like unbelievable at consultants getting in fights with bouncers at like honky Tk bars and getting kicked out. I mean just like hilarious. And then they show up at the conference the next day, like nothing ever happened and everyone's like, oh, that was rarainy. Yeah, the irony is just unmistakable. But I was at one of these big conferences and everybody was talking about Paris. Everybody was talking about Paris. And I don't I know Paris. It's not like Paris it's not like if you mention my name to Paris, you'd be like, o, yeah, Cory. it's nothing like that But I know Paris and more particular, I know the places that Paris went. and I know a lot of people that were in those treatment programs with Paris Some of them were people that were in the same treatment program I was in. because most kids, particularly rich kids, they just get passed on from treatment program to treatment program. So their parents have the money so that, you know, they're spending millions a year on their kids in treatment So all these consultants were like, o, she's full of shit and this and that and blah, blah, blah. And I was like No, she's not. I started pushing back. I was like, No, she's not. She's not full of shit. In fact, I know people that were at her program or. I know people that were in treatment with her. They were at this boarding school, that boarding schooler whatever or qu frankly, some of the stuff that she was talking about, I was like, it happened to me when I was in treatment. And I know a lot of other people that it happened to. So I really started pushing back against this narrative. And as you can imagine in the treatment industry That's a big no no. So everybody's like, you know drinking the kool aid and doing all of that. But there's kind of an unspoken role is that nobody talks shit about anybody else in the industry. Of course, communication is dangerous Absolutely. And just more and more people are like, this is bullshit, this is bullshut. So I kind of switched gears and I was a very high paid consultant in the industry, not a consultant in the sense of like I wasn't like an education consultant or anything like that. but I was like a business consultant in the treatment And I just started running into a bunch of stuff because they would also do things like and I started bringing this up, like they would hire me to be a consultant and my expertise is in marketing and advertising I used to do it for companies like Rolls Royce and like a bunch of others so I know how to market and advertise ultra high networare families. And they love me because I had twenty years sober. I had this crazy story. I had a great academic pedigree, you know, well spoken, blah, blah blah So the treatment centers loved me and they knew that I was good at business. I knew how to like, you know grow and do all of that stuff scale companies And they wanted me to come on, but they kept trying to put these like quotas on me. And I was like, what the hell is this? And they were like, Well, you know, you've been with us for like six months or whatever. And we haven't really gotten that many patients in or we've gotten a lot of patients in or whatever And they would constantly have these talks with me about it. And I was like, lookook, I don't know why the fuck you guys keep having these conversations with me about this and that but I was like, and they called it marketing. And I was like, but like traditional marketing and advertising is like I help you develop a copy I tell you where to place the copy of the advertising And then you know, we have some metrics that see how those are kind of converting or not converting. But other than that, I don't have anything to do with it. I don't want to talk to mentally ill people. I certainly don't want to talk to mentally ill children to try and get them into your treatment center. L I just didn't feel comfortable about any of that that they were constantly wanting me to do that. And I was like, no, I'm not going to do this. or if I would, Id talk to the parents And they the treatment programs would almost want to sell me off as if I were a doctor because I have a PhD. And they were like, Ohh but you've got all this education, whatever. And I was like, yeah, I do have six degrees, but none of them are in psychology. Well, you're a good spokesperson Itakes a white lab coat on you. Yeah Exactly. So they started wanting to do that and then they started wanting to do the academic in me because I was doing business consulting I was like Well, let's talk about research and outcome studies because they were like, oh, we need to promote our program and we're doing this and we're doing that. So I was like, sure, like again, I'm not a clinician. I don't do clinical research, but I consider myself a pretty good research scientist and I know how to design like so' research. so I was like, sure I can help with outcome study. and anyway, the pieces just started falling into place and between them saying that like Paris was lying and that these other survivors were lying. and anyway, I kind of started unearthing the, you know not all as well in the world of behavioral healthant treatment. that it's a hell of a lot more than just a few odd bad actors and stuff like that. that there's a systemic problem going on And the more that I kind of started pulling and pulling, I was like, oh, well, this isn't really accurate outcome data That's not really an accurate outcome study. You're excluding this person, you're excluding that. Oh, you had four or five people die in your treatment program. That wasn't in the brochure. like what's going on here? So there was just a lot of like reporting and self reporting that was just very dishonest. And that was where I was like, okay, something really needs to Is there a final straw Yeah, I mean, the final straw for me really was these companies like shitting on oaks like Paris Olton and people like that. and then The big I guess H raA for me was oh God, it was working for a couple of companies and really just figuring out that there was no there there. L these companies and the people there would really be like, o, we really care about people and this is like a mission for us. And you know, we really care about science and this and that. and then you just start digging beneath the surface a little bit and you find out that it's all bullshit. Like I'll give you an example. One company I was consulting for belieelved in this individual a lot. I was personally friends with her and she was a pciy And all of that which is like a doctor of psychology And it turned out that she wasn't even licensed. So I was like recommending people and doing stuff. And it was my fault because it had never just occurred to me to checker license. But a friend of mine was like, Ohh, I tried to do something or whatever with this person and we couldn't get it done because she's not licensed. And I was like, well, what the fuck are you talking about? She's not licensed. She's the chief clinical officer of this program She's like developing adolescent programs and this and that. like What do you mean she's not licensed? Like that's fucking impossible. There's no way that that's. So I went on one of the state licensing boards and it's pretty easy and I should have done it before, but I looked her up and looked her name and not only wasn't she licensed, she was suspended from getting a license because she had failed the fucking test so many times they look like restriction on her like taking it again So I called this consultant clinician up and was like, what the fuck is going on because I had been recommending individuals to this program And she was like, Ohh well, you know, it's all bullshit and blah, blah blah. And I just hadn't taken the test. and I'm basically a clinician anyway. and yada yada, And I was like, no, you're not. I was like, if you're not licensed, then you're not a fucking clinician.'re not you're like a medical intern That's like doing surgery on his own without a doctor assisting him. I was like, you can't even pass the godnamn test. Like this is a problem And I kind of blew my top on that. And after that, that was when I was like, I'm writing a fucking book about this shit. was like And everybody was like, you should write a book about this, you should do this and that, whatever. And that was probably like two, three years ago And that was when I was like, all right, I'm really gonna invest some time and energy and started doing some reflection. And that's when I wrote Selling Sanity. And I'm sure the industry loves you. I was going to say I went from an extremely high payid, successful treatment career to nothing at all very quick. So I think my dad said my next book should be on how to kill a career orr stand for what's right Yeah. Yeah One of the two. Have they just completely like, did they give you any opportunity to come in and try to change things? or are they just did they blacklist you? When I wrote my book,, I got blacklisted like pretty quickly. and at first it was interesting because a lot of my friends and I mean, I knew it was going to piss people off in the industry, but I thought that there were enough naively. so I thought that there were enough like good people or whatever it is in the industry That would kind of back me and be like, yeah, okay. what he's saying is really true. You know, there are some real problems here. A few people initially did that, but They backed off like really quick. I mean, the amount of people that just called me a liar, they were like, we think you're lying. We don't this But they do it in a very nice therapeutic way. They're like, we don't think this reflects an authentic experience, Cory. And I'm like, oh, so that's a nice way of calling me a fucking liar. So a lot of that, which is what they've done with, you, a lot of other people. A lot of folks in the community in the treatment world, especially because I'm not NA anymore. they're like, oh, he's this like crazy drug addict and blah, blah blah, whatever, which is like, okay, sure You could get out. So it's all the kind of standard stuff that they do to discredit people. It's like, oh he's on a relapse. sex. He's mentally ill I actually don't think it sucks because you get an opportunity to demonstrate otherwise and it actually it's actually a rite of passage when you stand up to these things. You're going to have to get some pushback. Well then the pushback is the first indication that you're doing something positive and then the slander and the lies And I think we last point in time. That was when I and that was when Iil knew I was doing. a point time where people recognizeed that Right? Like like when I see that you're taking crap and then I talk to you, go, oh yeah, he's on the right track. Right. So what' do you think way word Oh my go. It does feel good doing what I'm doing and oh my God, what do I think awayward? It's funny. I was watching it with my wife and my wife is a journalist if she's seen you know, all kinds of stuff. And she I met her in London many years ago. for whatever reason decided to marry me. but she was the one that was like, oh you should definitely write a book and talk about this stuff, but she was the one that told me about Wward initially And when we sat down to watch it, I had to, it was so good It was so good and it so reflected my experience being in the group in the cult. I mean, especially the way that we all would like turn on each other. and I think what they tleing Yeah, the tattletailing and the way that people would like amp other people up just so they could gain favor with the counselors and st. That was completely my experience of what it was like at insight. I mean Everybody was just trying to like You wanted to be the golden child. becausecause one that that meant your life was going to be okay that they weren't going to shred you emotionally and mentally That meant that you weren't going to be on the hot seat that you were going to get lots of positive attention and that all the other people it's kind of like being a rock star in a little geosphere or whatever is to be one of the counselors, boys or girls or whoever But that movie was so triggering for me. I had to stop watching it and I would like walk around for like fifteen minutes at a time. And then I would sit I the finish it. We didn't finish We't finish We stopped like episode four. and I actually talked about this on someone else's podcast about what I thought. And I said I mean I wasn't in we weren't in trouble teust. and we still found it triggering because it's the same dynamics of the tattletailing, the feedback, the punishment My only thought, my only sort of negative thing, I just have to say and I'm wondering how you feel about this is All of the stuff with the school we know, you know is accurate Bang on, but then because they added this sort of psychological horror thriller element to it you know, like, the next level stranger things vibe the stranger vibe and the skin and the scary music and like the that, you know, the fact that the whole community was in on it and like it was a whole like It almost made me think Did that do a disservice to somebody like what you would make Applegate are trying to do in terms of shining light? Did making it a psychological horror, which was and it's already horrific enough? did that? maybe Like damper the possibility that people take this seriously. I don't know. that was that was a thought that I had. What did you think? Yeah, I had the same it's funny you say that. I had the same feeling. I mean, I guess for