Reflecting on Historical Light and Darkness

Before legally blonde, before law school, Elle Woods was in high school. Set in nineteen ninety five, this Gemini vegetarian knows exactly who she is, until her family moves from Bel Aair to Seattle and turns her world upside down. Watch Elle navigate a new city, a new school, frenemies, and crushes all while staying true to herself. Packed with iconic fashion, nineties nostalgia, and a throwback soundtrack, Elle proves one thing Law school was hard. High school was harder. From the world of legally blonde, W L, a new original series on Prime videoide. Watch now. Have you ever considered surrounding your house with a moat to keep it safe Would you hire a professional wrestler as a bodyguard for your car Okay, maybe you wouldn't go that far But if you'd go to great lengths to avoid dealing with your insurance company You might have insoranoia And if you have insanoia, you should have NJM insurance They go to great lengths to do what's best for their policyholders Start relieving your insureanoia today injM d. com prettyret confident talking into a mic. Hey, I'm doing it right now but home projects. I second guess everything Is that noise normal Is that water damage Who do I even call That's where thumbch comes in Just upload a photo or voice notote and it uses AI powered search to match you with the right top rated local pro. So instead of guessing, eager clarity and can hire with confidence. For your next home project, try Thumbtack Hire the right pro today Handle burns. It's light flickering across the room as the winds of Edinburgh blow outside Marie Maitland is riding while her blind father sits not far away They spend so much time together now, these two. being his secretary and scribe now that his site is gone And yet, despite the closeness, Marie carries a secret he has no idea of As she writes her heart thumps in her chest at what she's pouring out onto paper Dangerous words, lines of smoldering love, sexy lines, erotic lines all aimed at the woman who has captured Marie's heart Her father nods as she writes oblivious. Outside the rattling window, the darkness swirls It is bitter They' in every sense This is the time in Scottish history when the harsh words of John Knox's Reformation fill the air where women are degraded and all illicit love is seen as devilish Marie knows the risks she's taking there's trouble brew For now Her heart beats on and she pours forth her desires Welcome to After Dark. I'm Anthony, and this is the podcast where we explore the darker side of the past. Today, we are talking about a remarkable woman who some believe wrote the first lesbian love story in British history She did it in the time of Mary Queen of Scots and of John Knox at a time when her reputation would have been in peril if she was caught Her love story is secret, at times joyous and ultimately heartbreaking as the world she lived in crushes her at the end Her name is Marie Maitland, and her story is being told for the first time by today's guest. Ashley Douglas, whose new book is all about this person, Marie Maitland, It's called With My own Hand and it's coming out in july twenty twenty six, the sixteenth of july to be exact. Ashley, welcome to After Dark Thank you so much. It's an absolute pleasure to be here I'm so excited to talk to you about this for various and many reasons, which will become clear as we get into this. But one of the first things I wanted to do is help listeners set the scene a little bit because I mentioned we're in the sixteenth century, but this is a very important time. Okay, we have Mary Queen of Scots, but there's an awful lot happening in and around a man called John Knox, isn't there Give us an idea of who Knox was and what his impact is having on Scotland at this time Yeah, of course. So sixteenth century Scotland, the main event is the Scottish Reformation, fifteen sixty. And in Scotland, this is like an overnight revolution. The Parliament declares The old church is now outlawed, that the pope is no longer the person in the status figure he once was going to mas is illegal. then this is like an overnight Revolution in Scotland, the whole country changes the landscape, the culture, because also buildings come down Cedroes come crashing down, nuneries are abolished, monasteries are abolished, and Scotland abandonies the old church, the Catholic Church for really a very extreme and austere form of the new. This is a very Scottish brand of Calvinism. so Calvinism we're going to have another John before we get to John Kno. So we've got John Calvin, who's a Swiss Reformer And then in Scotland, we have a very, very extreme form of Calvinism led by John Knox, who's the most influential Protestant reformer in Scotland and is at the head of this political religious revolution in Scotland, and it's safe to say that the guy had a bit of a misogyny problem. he was not a fan of women. One of his most infamous tracts is literally called The first blast of the trumpet against the monstrous regiment of women So he's really not a fan and this is the context that poor Mary Queen of Scots obviously comes back to Scotland as not just a women but also Catholic women. So the scene is really set for that very disruptive Scottish sixteenth century It's one of those things, isn't it where When we're talking about the sixteenth century and indeed We could say it in relation to today that we know there's going to be We expect elements of misogyny there, but I think what you're pointing out actually is really important to bear in mind with Knox, with John Knox specifically, there is a very specific strain of his attitude towards women, as you're saying that he's publishing on that is, I mean, not it's not even as if the Catholic Church was a mecca for women either, but what we have is something that's even more insidious in many ways. So can you talk us through some of the positionings that he would have, that Knox would have Scottish women occupy in this post fifteen sixty world Absolutely. and I mean one of the main implications for women is that the only option was to marry and bear children, Luther, Calvin it's all a womanness place is in the home. It is bearing children, it is being obedent to a man And that is really also promulgated by Kox in Scotland. It's also the case that they really it's almost hard to get your twenty first century head around that they really think of women as almost like a subspecies. We're not even f humans. It's like we are emotionally weaker, morally weaker, intellectually weaker, we're more susceptible to sin you know the world views is really quite alien to us. I think even the worst extremes of misogyn today don't come close to this misogyny, also bound up in religious ideology of knox and coal and So for somebody like Movie Maitland Previously women would at least have had the option to become a nun, great great for historical lesbians as well. we might come ono that. Now in this new post to information world, it is marriage or marriage. You marry a man, you bear children, you serve a man and you are demure and you are aer and you do not show any independence of thought of character, you certainly don't show any sexual promiscuity or appetites and certainly not for members of your own sex. We're talking about Knox and we're talking about him, you know publishing on this topic that he has certain strictures that he would impose on women in this society for the rest of the people on the ground Are they starting to experience this in real time? Is this something that people are getting on board with? Or is this a kind of an outlier extreme Calvinist view? Or has this very much been worked into society by the time we come to and we will talk about her in more detail, but by the time we come to talk about Marie Maitland in a bit more detail Yeah, it certainly embeds itself in Scottish communities up and in the country and it's the local Kirks really that are overseeing and implementing this new Calvinist moral code in the Kirk sessions zealously Obviously all headed by men They are zealously implementing this and we actually have in in Scotland a conviction for female sodomy from six and twenty five. So I find it quite useful to situate Marie Maitland's life, who we will come on to talk to, but just before we get there is quite crucial context. so we'd like to see we've got an execution for male sodomy in fifteen seventy So just just a decade after the Reformation, this is an example of this new clampd down this tightening of moral control after what it is implied has been the corruption and moral decay that's been allowed to flourage under the old church. So we've got this first recorded execution of two poor men for sodomy in fifteen seventy. and then on the other hand, on the other end we've got a conviction for female sodomy. That's a direct quote from the record. They literally say female sodomy sixteen twenty five to women and this is the Glasbow Presbytery in the level up from the local Kirk session two women are found guilty of femle soy because I think I don't know if you've come across this an to me, but I feel like there's some things a sense that women had it more easy and that you know men are being executed and condemned for soldom and women are sort of enjoying these sapphic romances. And just it's really important, I think so that was not the case at all. Women were also heavily policed and deviant, you know, so called deviant sexual behaviourors in women were not more accepted in any way. And as I say from Scotland, sort of dubious honor, we literally have the earase know on conviction four female Sodomy six and twenty five. So in movies born in the late fifteen forties. So this is the world that she's born into. She's a young teenager when the Reformation happens. So she is born into a world where she's going to mass and she's celebrating Saints days and feast days and justice is on the cusp of womanhood, we have this dramatic. revolution and then that's then the world that she grows into adulthood and lives out her days as an adult women. I'm going have to slightly take a bit of a sidestep on this because as maybe listeners and Nhleally, whoever else is consuming this may know, I've spent my fair share of time in queer archives over the last however many years That. refference to female sodomy is the first time I am encountering that phrase And I need to know more about this. Talk to me about that so talk to me about that trial specifically because yes, there is this idea that same sex attraction between men as it's now sodomy doesn't just mean sex between men. That's one of the things to make clear there are sodomy laws and sodomy between men it's not just about sex between men. Nonetheless, it is mostly men in England, at least that is that are being persecuted. But this is the first time I've heard about this a case of females sudden me. Please tell me more Yeah, Well, as it's a dubious honor to have. happappy to share Scotland's sources there. Yeah, I actually went through to Glasgow and had my hands and my eyes on the original I have and you know it's one of those ones I read in a secondary source and I needed to see it with my own eyes because it's quite uncommon and before I came across I also was thinking I was under the impression of we don't have records of convictions for female sodomy. but no I've literally seen the primary record with my own eyes where it's now held at the Mitchell Library in Glasgow. And ye, so it's the year sixteen twenty five and it's the Presbytery through in the west cooast of Scotland and it's two women called Elsph Folds and Margaret Armour and they are found guilty of the slanderous crime of female sodomy. and the slanderous there is doing more the job of scandalous or ye ye vil. And that that's I'm jumping about a bit but other that I find quite disturbing when you read Dreckers mostly relating to male sodomy, as you say, it's the words that come up all the time it's filthy, it's vile, it's politic. These are the words that are repeated, aren't they? whichich just gives us that insight as well into how with such contempt and disgust that this sort of behaviour were viewed at the time. And yeah, so the record says they were found guilty of this scandalous slanderous crime of female sodomy and they were forced to separate from one another and to be put out of one another's company on pain of excommunication. And of course, excommunication at this time is a big deal when the church is the heart of everything, all life and society. So that's all the record says. it's like six lines on the page so found guilty of crime and forced to separate pain of excommunication And it's Margaret that's forced to separate from Elspeth. so it's perhaps the case that maybe it's a lady and her maid, potentially, so one of them' been sent away, but we don't know that's being. Yeah Yeahah, yeah yeah. But yeah, but we do literally have a conviction for female sodomy there. And that's the Kurt implementing that. Now you see, this is where the Scottish archives are really interesting once we get past, you know, if we're talking about the Reformation or the aftermath of the Reformation in England and we're talking about you know the early sixteenth century and things become a little bit more centralized when we're talking about legal records thereafter because of the power the church has been diminished so much. But then we have this these and I've sent up very few not very much time at all in archives in Scotland. I have done a bit because I was living in Edinburgh for a while and some of the some of the the stories, histories, archive material between men there it's very different because of the nature of the law that's overseeing Scotland as opposed to what's happening in England. But that is truly remarkable actually. That's a really, really interesting case and also interesting that it's being used by the that it's being investigated and managed by the Kirk because it gives this idea of local and district management of these acts that possibly would have been dealt with differently or whatever in an English context. but that is that's really, really fascinating, right? I've gone off the piece too much, but that had caught my attention far too much for me to let it pass. Now I want to know a little bit about the woman we're here to talk about because that context is so vital for our understanding, I think Marie Maitland. and I know there's another way, some people say Mary Maitland, but there's a more distinctively Scott's way of saying her first name as well. I think so apologies if I'm bastardizing it slightly. but give us an idea about beforefore we get to the poetry that we're going to talk about, give us an idea about her life, the family she's born into and the position she occupies within that family. So yeah, Marie Metitland, I hit like Marie because this is also Alda Lion' time Yeah just about. So Ald Lion's time between Scotland and France and my such strong sense is that this Marie was actually named in honor of Marie Queen of Scots, who we know today in ankle sizeed form is Marary Queen of Scots, but who was actually Marie like her mother would tend to refer to her mother as Marie De Guise but she tends to get the anngle sized Mary so it's all over the place but in I think that Marie Maitland was named after MaryieQueen of Scots, and what's fascinating is that in every single primary record referring to her, it's Marie where is with other people you see variation. So it really did jump out as me as a historian who's used to be being in the archives and you're used to people even spelling their first and surnames differently from document to document. She's always Marie, always with the IE ending and including on the front page of her manuscript, which we'll come to, which is very ornamental and conscious. So for all of these reasons, I just always call her Marie because it really seems to be how she wanted to style herself and be known at that time. So Marie Maitland, so she's born into a family called the Maitlands of Leteetington, who I don't think are that well known today. I think they've kind of fallen out of consciousness a wee bit and even in Scotland, but in the sixteenth century, there' big political players and Brother William, people might know as Secretary Leington to Mary Queen Scotts And then her father, Sir Richard Maitland of Leteffington, is keeper of the Privy seal to Mary Queen of Scots and as well as being a judge and a poet, and then her other brother John Maitland will later become Chancellor to King James VI, the son of Mary Queen of Scots. So even from that very brief overview, you can tell we're not dealing with a normal family. She's born into the very heart of Scottish political court life and she's the youngest of four daughters and Really, like her three sisters, Marie should have done nothing more in life than come of age and be married off into a good local landed family and bare children and instead Twuist of Fate happens in fifteen sixty one So Marie's born in the late fifteen forties, I should say. So by fifteen sixty one, she's probably just in her early teens, just on the cusp of womood just approaching manageable age And at this pivotal moment for her, her father, Sir Richard Maitland, goes blind and this misfortune for her father is the twist of fate that redetermines Marie's life path in a way that would otherwise have been unthinkable because now instead of marrying treading that path that her sisters and most other women of the time had to and Marie gets this opt out. She becomes her blind father's secretary And this is the twist of faate that transforms her life and just gives her that wee bit relative freedom We bit of a unique life for a women. in this period, which is why Aza will come on to she gets to write this poetry and fall in love with the women. But I think all of this would have been unthinkable had her father not gone blind in fifteen sixty one, which is the year that Mary Queen of Scotch returns to Scotland for context for people. We've got reformation in fifteen sixty. So We're just the year after Reformation. Mary Queen of Scots has just come back where all this is going on at the national level on the Mitland of Leington family level have gone blind. The three oldest daughters are already married, set up in households with husbands. The boys are out doing their boy things. They're off studying and making political careers because they get to do that Marvie is the only daughter stillill at home and she's unwed and she steps into this role as secretary to her father and she stays in that role for most of her adult life. So you know that uneasy anxious feeling you get when you think about dealing with your insurance company? Well, there's actually a term for that. It's called insureanoia And if that sounds like something you're way too familiar with, you should really think about getting NJM insurance They go to great lengths to do what's best for their policyholders by providing dedicated reps whose priority is you. And that means you'll find more peace of mind with them Relieve your insur anooyia with NjM insurance by visiting njM. com for a quote today As the saying goes, if these walls could talk And on the Bwixt the Sheets podcast, we make it our business to discover what happened behind closed doors, and even more importantly, in the bedrooms of people all throughout history kings, queens, mistresses, servants, and everyone in between We also get up close and personal with medieval aphrodisiacs, lethal Victorian makeup routines, and look at the scandalous lives of beloved children's authors. Nothing is off limits In other words, it's the best bits of history with me, Dr. Kate Lister. Listen to but twwix the sheets of the history of sex scandal in society twice a week every week, wherever it is that you get your podcasts, brought to you by the award winning network, History Hit Isn't it fascinating that and I love the way you're describing it actuallyhle, It's so perfect for the circumstances that we're dealing with here. There is a misfortune of sorts, particularly from the father's perspective, of course, that befalls this family and the father is still, you know you're talking about all of the things that the boys are doing. They're off making careers for themselves, they're contributing to the family in other ways. But the dad's still at the heart of the family. He's still the person that everybody's looking to, particularly now that the quQueen's back in the country and you know this is a prominent family, etcera etcetera, et cetera. But he loses his sight And then through this twist to faith through this misfortune comes an opportunity for somebody like Maria in many ways She she is accidentally the perfect person to fill this position where Again, I'm inferring here, and you know, you'll have to forgive me, but we're allowed to use our historical imaginations every now and again. But there's a world in which perhaps knowing what we're about to discuss later, she's not necessarily overly pressed about finding a husband in the same way that perhaps her sisters had been. So as she's smart, she's educated, she's Eerudite, she is capable, and so she's thrust into this management role in many ways, assistant role potentially is a better phrase for whatever way you want to talk about it. but it gives her some agency and it means we're probably left with a much bigger archival stamp from her than we might otherwise have been left with. And that's what I want to come on to now because in this role that she fulfills for her father, again, there's this poem or a couple of poems hanging over as I know, and we will come to them, but She's she's not just expressively creative in what she's doing for her father. She has more everyday jobs to do. So can you give us an idea of what she is leaving behind on his behalf as she's working for and alongside him at this moment in her life Absolutely. and then yeah, the main source that we have is this manuscript of poetry, but alongside that her father was a court of sension judge, so he's composing practics, which in acend that is the Scotts term practic. So there's a very important source called Bitlland's Pactics. They're essentially early law reports, but they're an absolutely crucial source for Scottish legal history. and of course one se goes blind they're called Baitlland's practice, but one seages blind he's not writing them down himself. so he is dictating these to somebody. Marie is an obvious candidate for what he would also have had court clerks and male court clerks at court, of course, but when he's at home He's got his dautiful daughter by his side at all times And he's also collecting things like the history of the Kings of Scotland, England and France. He's very is a historian he's bit of a polymath is Sir Richherard, very educated, very scholarly man letters as well, so we might come onto this a bit later, but Long story short, the matelances back, the rog political horse in the civil war that ensues after Mary Queen of Scott's deposition and they end up having their castle home confiscated from them and everything. But the interesting point here is that Marie's father was actually completely neutral. he's very much The eulages about him when he dies say that he's an unspotted and blameless judge. He actually is very, very all about the common wheld, the common welfare of the country and seeking peace above everything. and could everybody just just be nice to one another? Actually his poems were quite Qite sad when you do them because it's like this is sixteent centy Scotland. everything has gone to shit. like everyone hates each other, everyone's waring and he's just like, C we all please just come together for the good of the country? That is really Richard Waitland. And so he's actually entirely neutral. And despite this, Ed Morton who's the King's party regent who are the victorious in the civil War, they win. And he confiscates Lyington Castle from Sir Richard who has famously taken no part in the civil War. He took no side whatsoever. He was shideiously neutral And he wrote about this at length as to why the war was terrible and he wanted it to end, but his sons, Marie's brothers all went in bigig timeang for Mary could of Scots and we're leading likes the Queen's partarty So And it is really quite ruthless of Martin to confiscate Sir Richard's Castle. So this was a very longow way of answering the question as to the things that Marie might have written for him, but he ends up writing a letter to Elizabeth I F of England to seek her help and say look, I have done nothing. I did not take a side and it is surely against all the laws of Man, God for the Father to be punished for the crimes of the Son, donon't you agree? So there's this letter in that is written to Elizabeth I first from Edinburgh and we know it arrived with her because it's held in the English state arrchives. I didn't get responded to. She left themong red. No, I was just about to ask. Did we get any reply? No, that's painful didn't reply but Again, Richard was not writing this letter himself. This is very much after the time that he's blind and this letter is in a secretary hand. so this is the what we call the script of the time. Predominantly male was predominantly used by men but Marie also is fluent in seecretary handand because once she stips into the role of secre her father, she also has become literate in this. Secretary hand and we have The letter to Elizabeth I F is of course not signigned off by Marieia It signed Sir Richard Maitland of Leington Night The secretary handand in that document bears striking resemblance to other secretary hand documents that we know were written by Marie because they're sent by her So I would say that's quite a strong candidate of Marie actually was the person that that letter, although it was dictated by Sir Richard. So that's an idea of the sort of things that she she's supporting him in. But you know what it is like Anthony W when you're so far back, you don't I don't I didn't set the bottom. I Mar Mitland wrote this. Ire you're assuming that like he's in exile. with his daughter who's writing to Elizabeth. Who else would he have dictated that to? She's the most obvious candidate and it really does look very like the Secretary man that we know that she wrote herself from later documents. I love that you're being a proper historian with that, Ashley, because we are so taught to just restrain ourselves in those things And and you're absolutely right. And how many times we come across these things where we go it's we don't know for sure, but all the circumstantial evidence together and a compelling image starts to present itself. And that's really one of those things that why I asked the question about what she was doing beyond the poetry, which we're going to come to now, but It really puts us in rooms with her and her father and it puts us almost as close as you can get to those conversations and to what she's hearing, to what she's processing who, potentially a quQeen of England of not Scotland in this case, but Queens, that she is interacting with. So you know, this really is an opportunity for agency for Marie And we're left with some of the impact of that further down the line Now let's turn our attention to posossibly some of the most interesting material that we've been left, this collection of poetry. Now, it's not just poems that Marie wrote and it's a more complex collection than that. Can you tell us what's in it? and then we'll come on to Marie's contribution more specifically Of course, this is a bit of than excited to get to so here we are. Yeah, so the manuscript we know it today as the Maitland Quarto manuscript Maitland because of its connections to the Maitland family in Quarto Latin for quarter. So it's literally just def folded pages as opposed to foliy of the larger pages. So MaitlandQuorto manuscript. And this manuscript is fundamentally a collection of ninety five poems written in historical Scots, which was still the language of Scotland at this time. This is before Scots were displaced by English and the manuscript contains predominantly the poems of Marie's father We've already made clear they have a very close relationship. Thuric ascririb Jew, her father as well as being a statesman and a judge is also a very avid historian and a poet and collector. So he's also constantly writing poetry. And indeed one of the primary records we have for his G Bind is a poem that he addressed to Meran Scottts. upon her return to Scotland and in that poem he expresses his regret that he's not as able to serve her as he would like to be in the way that he served her mother, Marie de Guise cause I cannot see is what he says in his own words, which I always found quite profound when I read that poem, so we have evidence for Sir Richard's blindness precise point in fifteen six the one in his own words in what must surely have been one of the first poems he dictated to Marie, to his daughter to record. So The manuscript contains The most complete record of Sir Richard's poems that we have that's come down to us, arranged chronologically, very beautifully, very nicely written out because Sir Richard's poems do appear in some other sources and some other contemporary Scottish manuscript miscellaneies, but it's not the complete record. They're in sort of quite haphazard and messy context, there's some errors in them So we can understand why Marie as a beautiful daughter might have taken upon herself to collect all her father's poetry together. You could we've already painted bit of a picture of Hibby's quite exact. He's a nice collector. It would have definitely pleased him to know that all his poetems were together chronologically and one place But this manuscript also contains poems by other male poets of the era, the sort of male great and good of this period in Scottish history. We've got a poem in there by King James VI. There are poems by Alexander or Berth No these are like just Scottish court figures quite prominent in their time. They're not so famous today, but they were big names in their time Most interestingly, of all of course is that the manuscript also contains about thirty anonymous poems And these anonymous poounds are almost certainly written by women many of them written by Marie and three of them are lesbian love poems. So the long and short of it is is that Marie has cover story of compiling a manuscript of her father's poetry. Dautiful daughter, is her that is her projection to society. and just a dautiful daughter serving my father. and this serves her so well throughout her life Same with the manuscript. But really what she is doing is using this manuscript ostensibly dedicated to her father in his poetry and the great men in their lives And she's using that to record the poetry of herself and of other women around her, including lesbian love poetry, which we have already put into context is a astonishing thing to do, quite a dangerous thing to do and she does that So if you've been excited about talking about the quoto and I've been very excited about listening to it, I've been even more excited to ask you to do the following. So one of the things I know about Ashley is despite her Excellent historian credentials. She's also done a master's in Scots. Am I right Ahley? I'm right in saying this that you have studied the language, the Scots language as well. Now this isn't a dialect. this is a language One of the things I want to ask Ashley if she would deign to do it for us is to read one of these poosts, whichever one you want, Ashley, I don't mind what you choose in the original Scots so we can get a flavor for now you don't have to read the whole thing. You can read an extract or whatever it is. It' all up to you, but I would love to hear it in the original language delighted and yeah, you're right, I have studied historical Sots. So some speak modern Scots. This is without taking this into deter into linguistic history of Scotland, but but yes, in the sixteenth century the Scotish language was still the language of Parliament, kings, queens, and now English is now the formal language of Scotland today, but it still continues as a spoken language. So for me, this is like reading historical Scots. So kind of similar to what I'd speak naturally, but guess we was reading Shakespeare for English speakers What el do I reen Maybe the first two stanzas or vem forty nine And this is a poem that Marie writes to the woman that she loves and this is the poem in which she declares her extreme undown love and her desire even to marry her Just do this in the Scots without any translation Phoebus in his spereus Hicht Prisllus the Cape Cpusculine, and Phoebe o the staris Licht, your splendor, so, madam, I wine does only pass all feminine In sapient superlative andnduit we virtues say divie as learned palace reed Avive. As by hidden virtue unknown, The adamant draws iron there till, Your courteous nature so has drawn My hurt yours to continue so S great joy does my spirit fulfil contempling your perfection You wield me wholly at your will and ravish my affection Well that despite the fact that it's not Gaelic, just to point out, it is Scot's not Gaelic. It has stirred something in my cold Gaelic heart nonetheless. or should I say Celtic heart, maybe that's the way to put it. That is amazing. actuallyctually, I've actually got goosebubs up after listening becausecause that was so amazing. It's so special. I understood some of that, some of it I could get. Let's talk through the first stanza in terms of what she is saying for those of us ignorant of Scots because it's quite magical and it's quite moving even in its original form. And that's why I wanted to hear it from you because I was like, it can do something just orally anyway. but now let's get into some of the translation work just to see what we can uncover in there. Absolutely. ye. So the first bit is so as Phoebus in his fetus is essentially the sun in his sky, as the sun in his sky, Prisllus the cape crepusculine out does the cape of twilight. Now people might know the word like crepuscular like animals So crepusculide, the cape. she's very over the top Marie a lot of the times not don't say twwilight, say the Cpe Cpusul and Phoebe all the stus lift. So as the sun outdoes all the darkness of twilight and the moon, Poebe outdoes all the starust lift, the light of the stars. Y splendor, madam, I believe, does only surpass all womanhood M. That's so interesting this pedestal making, isn't it? that we're we're placing this woman on a pedestal. She's like, yeah, women are all great, but you're the greatest of all of them. So she's setting up this convention straight away. Amazing. Yeah And she says, you're sapien, superlative, you're you've got virtues so divine. It's as if learned palace. Godddess Palace Adida has come back to life So ye. Quite flattered, I. Yeah, yeah. like a goddess that's the only comparison she can do. You're more beautiful, more wise than this like a goddess come back to life. And then and I find this really really uplifting and empowering actually as a gay woman myself. because you know when we're often doing LGBT history, it's quite depressing. it's criminal records, it's persecution. I find this line really powerful. She says As by hid virtue, hiden virtue that adamant draws iron there too, your couteous nature so has drawn my heart to you. And that addamine drawn iron comes up in Shakespeare's plays and stuff as well. It's quite a common romantic notion at the time, mostostly is obviously in heterosexual context, but you' using it here for a sapphic context, which is kind of cool in itself. She's ten that heterosexual motif and applying it to her love for other women. button as by hidden virtue unknown, it's that I don't know why I feel this way about you, but I just do. I just do and throughout this this is a love poem. to another woman where Marie goes on to say their love is greater than any love that's ever been heard of before and she lists out biblical and classful examples. She says they should be married and if they could be married, then she would prove that nobody has ever been more devoted. And what comes across in this poem and every other one of the lesbian love poems that Marie writes is no sense of shame. like there's no sense of trying to reconcile and like this is sixteenth century Scotland, this is post re Reformation Scotland. And she writes with such a confence, to be honest with greater confidence than I would have had in my twenties where it's more of a coming to terms with a recckonone. and here we've got an Og Presbyterian at the time of John Knoes, who's just like I love this woman and it's just as by hidden virtue, I know I don't quite understand why or how, but I just do. and She goes on such great joy, does my spirit fulfil contemplating your perfection? and then You probably don't need a translation for the next part, but you govern me wholly at your will and ravish my affection As the saying goes, if these walls could talk. And on the Bwixt the Sheets podcast, we make it our business to discover what happened behind closed doors and even more importantly, in the bedrooms of people all throughout history Kings, queens, mistresses, servants, and everyone in between We also get up close and personal with medieval aphrodisiacs, lethal Victorian makeup routines, and look at the scandalous lives of beloved children's authors. Nothing is off limits In other words, it's the best bits of history with me, Dr. Kate Lister. Listen to but twwixt the sheets the history of sex scandal in society twice a week every week, wherever it is that you get your podcasts, brought to you by the award winning network, History Hit. The word raavished is particularly interesting there, isn't it? Be this is well, first sometimes, I suppose I should caveat. it's sometimes used when people usually in terms of opposite sex attracted people or women particularly have been involved in some form of rape. you can find that in the sixteenth century. However, there are other contexts, literary contexts, particularly for the word ravished. And often it is something has happened to me beyond my control And often that can be dressed up in very positive, which it is because you know, we can situate this as a positive thing because of the language that surrounded that you've just so brilliantly described there actually. But it feels like, yes, there's a sexual element to it. there could very well be a sexual element to it. But even beyond that, even elevating it beyond just the sexual, the overwhelming well, this is how I read it tellell me if you agree, the overwhelming love and devotion and joy that she's describing there and the beauty she she finds herself surrounded with is beyond her control. She evenven if Knox she's not talking to Knox specifically, but even if Knox didn't approve of this, there's nothing she can do about it. She is where she is. it's beyond her control. And there is something so tantalizing about that and actually, as you say, really confident about it too Yeah. No I totally agree with your reading. That's really what comes across is that like this heady flush of first love where you're just like, I don't even know what's happening to me. I'm just so overwhelmed and out of control. and it's both amazing and intoxicating and kind of scary at the same time. And that is what's coming through that I toally agree And yeah, the raabbis and historical sorts raavish today Yet that word in historical Scots specifically, that word, if you look up in historical Scots dictionaries, primary sources, that word predominantly is used to depict the rape of a woman by a man. So the fact that that is the word she has gone for in the sixteenth century context is also quite blame what are reclaiming? And so for example, in Melville's memoirs, when Melville is describing the rape of Marican Scotts by Bothville That is the very word that he uses he says would could haveot she could not but marry him because he had ravished her and lain with her against her will and remember, this is also the context that Marie Maitland is living in. She's a young woman when this is all going on around her. This is the news essentially for her. and she has nonetheless grasped that word and subverted it to describe T Sffhic romance because in this case, it's like, although it's powering and intoxicating, it's nonetheless obviously very consensial. She's a very willing participant in this And so all through that poem in particular that poem forty nine, to me, it's Marie taking words and concepts and tropes that are dominant and used in some way in the society she lives in, but just completely subverting them and turning them on their head, whether it's taking the Shakespearean notion of adamance, drawing iron, the verb raavish And she also later in the poem invokes biblical figures, she invokes David and Jonathan And she involes Rith and Naomi and to exalt her own same sex love, but she's like casting even biblical figures as same sex exemplars And she one of the lines later in that point was as the scriptures says. And again, in the context of Protestant Scotland, I probably should have said this earlier actually. Obviously one of the major shifts with Protestantism is people reading the Bible in their own language and on their own terms and becoming very studious of the scriptures. and I do not think it's what John Knox had in mind. With encouraging people to do this was for lesbian women to essentially read the scripture and say seems like Sodomy seems okay to me like it's all over the Bible. But that is what she does in this poem. She takes biblical scripture resa andat of Sppffic Love. And I love that. And I love when we encounter that in the eer archive because they are using the framework that they have to hand. We see it in terms of the talk around marriage, the talk around religion, these how we how she would legitimize those relationships. She's using the tools that she has at her disposal. And I always have said and will say this differently from now on fromom my own research, when we talk about the history of same sex marriage, I have always been saying I began talking about it in seventeen twenty six because that's the earliest record that I had found about samex men talking about getting married always held this to be true concurrently, that that is not the first. It is just an early eighteenth century example. But here we are in the poem that you' have dated to the fifteen seventies, that is also now framing. The history of same sex marriage. So we don't talk about the history of same sex marriage going back to twenty thirteen or twenty fifteen. We now can go to at least fifteen and seventy and I guarantee you, that's not the first one either. There will be more, peopleople will uncover other things. That's groundbreaking historical research, actually. That's incredible. than you. I'm so excited to share it because I think it's a lot of things that will be new to people just because we don't know enough yet and then the common perceptions of Has there been a conviction for femle sodomy? When did same sex marriage start being spoken about? People can only know what there' out there to know. And this story of Marie Maitland and the story of her mindestrip has never been told before. So people shouldn't feel bad for not having heard of this stuff already. It's literally never been There's a reason before. Yeah ye. And I will Leave this part of Marie's life. there There's another poem that deals with heartache poem eighty nine, but I will leave people to go and get your book on in July. sixteenth of July and we go through a poem fourteen and there's nine stanzas and we go through it in the detail and there's also padall little English translation. So. If if you're looking for more details on the poems specifically and upon the lesbian love poems and heartbreak poems that has to be said, then that's going to be in there in Ashley's new book coming out on the sixteenth of July, get that book but. this is covered in the book too, but I just want to give people a kind of an outro because it's a very strange turn in many ways, mayaybe it's not at all, actually. mayaybe that's just the queer historian to be talking about it. But what happens then afterfter her father dies Just seems to it's a whole different life. and well, it's not. That's unfair. and actually not only is it unfair, it's inaccurate about how we would represent same sex attraction because this a form of identity that we understand today is different in the sixteenth century. But tell us what happens after her father dies because suddenly her life is not so much her own anymore Yeah, it's a very sad ending. For most of Marie's life, she does get this unique opt out blind father, needs a secretary and for most of her adult life. and I do like to stress this because it is the pent at the end, but for the most part, she gets to live with relative freedom. she amasses great financial independence, social autonomy, all within the relative context of Steenth Century Scotland And she gets to fall in love with and have this relationship with another woman Once her father dies, she she's stillow wom in sixteenth century Scotland and she becomes the property essentially of her neatest male relative, which is Chancellor John Maitland. and he is a political fixer. He's a politician through and through and he, long story short, marries her off immediately even though She has been set up with total financial independence, because as it becomes clear that in being her father's sectary, she is fast going past the age at which a woman would be married, the average age of marriage for women like Marie's eighteen, they'd certainly be married off by their early twenties Marie's father grows older, she's growown older, she's not married. So at some point it is clearly accepted that like she's not being married and by the time her father dies, she's going to have passed the age for marriage being the case And obviously what women get from marriages, financial security, placeac toy, etcera cer. So it is decided by the Maitland family that they need to support her in other ways. So they give her financial incomes and this is the records that I've found for these this was so exciting to uncover all these primary records have been on the scene for centuries because when I first went looking, you don't know what you're going to find, do you? It's just like Who knows? and I found so much cool stuff. One of the coolest documents this movie invests the money that should have been her dowry. And instead of getting husband, she invests in an interest earning loan. Good for her. She' just Fantastic and we've got this record in the archives So she invests her diary, she's got interest earning loan on that. She's got various other income sources. like I' fallen over myself to keep track of all the different sources of her income. She has absolutely no financial need to marry upon her father's debt. It has been set up that she will have no financial wants when her father dies. She's forty by this time. She's about forty when her father dies. She's way past childbearing age She has no financial need to marry. and despite this, her father is barely cold in the grave and her brother marries her off because it suits his political interests. He's the king's man. He doesn't get a chance there for no reason. He does what has to be done. even if it's getting your hands dirty like this and marrying off your own for year old sister. and it's essentially a death sentence for her because She is forty when she's married off to a young man in his twenties justust all Augojon and But this this being the sixteenth century, the marriage has to be consummated to be valid. And kind of unfortunately for Mia in this case, despite her advanced year she was able to conceive And she bears and gives birth to four children in the space of a decade and then dies at the age of fifty. And we don't have the records referring to her death doesn' don't tell us the exact cause, but I am almost certain it will have been death and childbirth with the fourth one. She leaves behind four children under the age of ten and she's fifty when she's been the last one. so I don't I don't see any other plausible explanation and that she will have died in childbirth or complications from childbirth following the fourth one It's strange, isn't it? Be It's very difficult. I'm trying to restrain myself from putting our expectations of her because she owes us nothing. you know what I mean? She was the person that she was and she had she's extraordinary in very many ways. and even what you're describing now is extraordinary. It's just a little less empowering, I think, but then you know, that's a modern sensibility that we're kind of layering over it. but nonetheless, you can help what you feel when you encounter these histories and those are valid responses, I think What's strange is there always seems to be three Marie Maitlands in some way, where it's the Marie before her father goes blind, the Marie during her father's for the rest of her father's life and then you get this glimpse of what might be before the brother marries her off of this investing person But ultimately that's that that that just doesn't That's not allowed to come to fruition in the context ofinguished. Yeah. And there's so many fantastic poems in the manuscript. There's the Lessood ones of course, but there's other poems written by women who knew Marie. and they celebrate are quite tongue in cheek poems by women who knew her well celebrating her great wealth and generosity. Like she was obviously minted. She was the friend minted MarieZ always hand out money She had so much independent wes but there's even a poem that compares her to Sappho. I'm sure a lot of your listeners will know but if anyone doesn't Sappho being the original lesbian poet from whom we get the very word saapphoc and lesbian. And in one of the poems, Marie' literally compared to Sappho And I'm really sorry, I forgot to answer your question properly, which was about the heartbreak poem. Oh In terms of everything going wrong for me, ye, just at the point as a father dies as well, that a very, very late poem in the manuscript, that actually the last poems in the manuscript are all eulages after her father. has passed And then the completion date of the manuscript is also fifteen eighty six, which is the year that her father dies. So it's clear that she's been creating this manuscript and then that's the end point once her father's. passed away issue she writes some lovely poems at the end of about him and wriniscent on him and she at the front, she writes her name twice on the title page in fifteen eighty six, that's ended manuscript. just before these poems commemorating her father is a poem of utmost heartbreak. It's another one by Marie to this woman who in poem forty nine she has poured out her devotion and undown love to. That movie would never have thought for a second that they weren't always going to be just in love and that it was unbreakable poM eighty nine is desolate by this time and we don't know, this is where the records only take you so far. We have these qus don't actually know what was going on in her life, but it very much seems to be the case that absence has come between them because the opening of this poem is all about the tyranny of absence and how it kills people. This is Marie's wors I'm not even paraphrasing like it's very extreme. L This is killing me, this absence. And the end of this poem is if you get in touch with me again, you may remedy this yet and if not I will die without relief, that's the last word. If not I die without relief. So it really all just go to shit for Marie. her relationship has broken down and then her father dies and she was meant to at least live an independent life and just do her own thing and then her brother marries her off to this twenty year old and then she spends a couple of years conceiving and bing children and then she dies in childbirth. I was very depressed wr in the last chapters of the bri I have to say. Well now Steve, that you are like a pro. You've taken me to my next question so perfectly. But then of course I ruin up by just going on this tangent, but you did, nonetheless. I wanted to know as a way out that you've spent this amount of time with Marie Maitland, and you have ultimately, yes, people have written a little bit about her before, but like you are now going to emerge on the sixteenth of July, although you' already there. But in terms of the public imagination, you will emerge on the sixteenth of July as the leading source on Marie Maitland and her life and I'm just wondering for you as the historian What were the areas of The two areas of greatest darkness, first of all, that you came across, and then greatest light. Where were those life contrasts that you encountered in the archive over the years that you spent pouring over this document, these documents The light that I came upon, I think we've already touched upon, which is Marie's astounding sense of self and self love, which is a very modern concept, but to apply that to her and Y, self love and self confidence as a woman who loved other women unapologetically and boldly. I find that hard to do as a twenty first century lesbian growing up in modern Scotland. So the fact that she managed to do that was such confidence and pride really in the sixteenth century still bamboozles me every day. It's astounding that I've even had this subject to write about that a woman like her existed in the sixteenth century. So I do find her bravery and courage in the face of sixteenth century Scotland, we gave the context at the start of this recquired dig. is this is the worst possibly the worst time in Scottish history that you could be gay And she's done it with such boldness and courage and then Darkness Probably I mean, I did have to write but maybe could have scot us as well. so the Some of the darkbs was probably MarieQeen of Scots and her rape at the hands of Bothffo. She's always a very tragic figure to write about. And then for Marie, it would be think her The getting married off like the reality that a woman in this man's world ultimately You have no p, you have no control. She had she she got away with it for a while. She had this opt out, but ultimately reality kicked in and it's like you're just a woman. You're somebody's daughter, you're somebody's wife, you're somebody's sister. You don't exist as your own person and