Thomas Hardy and the Execution Legacy

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Learn more by visiting acast dot com slash advertise In august eighteen fifty six, thousands gathered outside Dorchester Jail to watch Martha Brown hang for the murder of her husband she shouldn't be here. becausecause they'd figured out after her trial that she wasn't guilty in the way they thought she was, but the authorities have now refused to listen Her execution was driven more by politics and public anxiety than the tragic crime itself. This is an intriguing case and a history that gets to the heart of the dark side of Victorian England Hello and welcome Welcome to After Dark. My name is Anthony and today we are taking you into the darker side of the Victorian justice system It is eighteen fifty six. We are meeting a woman called Martha and she has ended the life of her husband, John Now what unfolds after that is a Victorian trial and investigation that you might be surprised to find the different twists and turns so inspiring, was it, even at the time that Thomas Hardy had taken some of the elements from Martha's trial and put it into one of his novels. So we're going to see some pretty heightened elements of Victorian society here. and who better to walk us through some of these dark twists and turns than Professor Rose Wallace of the University of West England, Bristol And Rose is prorofessor of British Social History and is associate director of the Regional History Center After Dark R. Well thank you very much, Antony. againain, there's some people that come on this and I'm like, how does it takaking us this long to have you on here? Because your work so feeds into everything that is after Dark. So we're delighted to have you in. This Freddy and I were talking before this morning just about all the episodes. and one of the things that struck me about this is, you know the way sometimes there's like modern day, um re invvestigations of crimes. and they do a whole podcast on it and they're like, actually is there's been a conviction here and it looks like this, but now we're going to go back in and we're going you've done this with this particular tribe and there was a reinvestigation at the time almost or a secondary part of the investigation. But without giving too much of the details away because we'll get into that What was it specifically about this crime and the outcome of this crime that kind of drew you in? and now had you discover some new threads to it I think firstly to kind of move away from the hardy connection actually, because that seems to be what has thrown Martha into the spotlight and there is so much more going on here U, but I suppose The other thing was When I was researching this case, people would say to me, you know, well You know, why didn't she say stuff before? you know, why was she lying? And I was just like, You're not thinking about her experience. There's so much There's so many layers of judgment here that I kind of wanted to unpick it and to really The impossible task of recovering a voice that's not there, but recovering an experience I suppose. Yeah. There is also something here which I think and again, we'll get to sorry to give you teasers at the top of the episode, but actually that's what we do nowadays. Wh am I apologizing. But we have a way of looking at domestic violence in the nineteenth century that we're pretty set on actually in the way we communicate and talk about historic domestic violence in the nineteenth century But actually I think this is fascinating what you've discovered and the primary source material that you've come across in this, but we'll get into all of that Before we do Let's introduce us to who ends up being Martha Brown, but give us an insight into this woman called Martha and her life to begin with So Elizabeth Martha Brown always known pretty much as Martha Dorset born and raised from fairly modest kind of agricultural ground She's married at the age of twenty to A nice guy called Bernard Burnne Burnard's. Bernard Burnne, yeah. She's about twenty when they get married They have two kids Both of these kids die in infancy really sadly and weeks apart as well. Um, and then Again a few years after that, Bernard dies as well. So Martha is widowed and she goes to work for a guy called John Sims, who's quite important and his housekeeper for ten years on a farm in Perbeck where she beats a second husband, John Brown And he's a shepherd. She's the housekeeper They get married in eighteen fifty two and move to this tiny village hamlets. Birdsmoregate, again, endorsse it. near Broadwindsor and she sets up a little shop And he works as a tramp for a cartter, so he has a horse and carton. stuff around. and I suppose, I mean, this again bothers me, there's so much that bothers me There's quite significant age difference between Martha and John It's about eighteen, maybe nineteen years and when the trial comes this is drawn attention to. This is like some kind of content of what was to come that there was something wrong with this sort of relationship? No, it's unusual. pererhaps we an older woman and a younger man then and indeed now with that sort of age difference to get together. But that's not what's wrong with this relationship. Yeah yeah, yeah. That's not where we go wrong. Not there. No. And I mean, it's not inconceivable. They fanciied each other, you know, and then people saying, I well you wanted her money because she had a bit of money from her previous marriage from her own work There are other people saying, Well, she was a very handsome woman for, you know, someone in her early forties, cheheers. They may have had you know a properly romantic relationship to begin with, but obviously these sorts of already little kind of social transgressions, breaches of conventions start kind of putting this weird poll over the case. We're going to hurtle right towards it actually, because there's a lot to talk about after the crime and the trial itself. So we'll get to the heart of this straight away. It is the sixth of july, eighteen fifty six. This is the night of the murder. Talk us through what know what we think we know what Martha tells us. Okay Martha's version of what happens is John has been at work on the fifth, he's been out all day He gets back about two AM, she says. the yeah, on the sixth of July, she hears this noise outside the window. She goes out, finds him kind of collapsed and he whispers to her the horse. So she's like, Oh my God he's been injured by the horse. She says she drags him through into their kind of main living room where he clutches hold of her so tightly in this kind of desk grate that she can't physically move to get him help with his head injuries until about five o'clock in the morning when She says he lets her go and she goes straight round to near neighbor and cousin, John's cousin Richard's Damon's house gets Rich Did and says, Ohh my god, I think Jhns st And that's her version of events, which she sticks to The issue being and it's noted In the coroner's inquest, it's noted by all the friends and neighbourors who come to the house that she calls to her aid effectively. There's no blood outside. There's no kind of evidence of her dragging him through All the blood is in the room in which his body's found. And then the coroner's inquest confirms that it's highly unlikely and imp posossible that a horse would have inflicted the head injuries in fr, which they go into incredibly graphic detail in the trial about this, and then it was probably caused by a blunt instrument. Right. okay So we have a story that she has deellivered, possibly fabricated She is reaching out to a wider network, a familial network that is around her. We have We certainly have a husband returning home from somewhere at some point And something very dramatic and traumatic and life ending is definitely happening We have that version of events up front Bin or nerert Another version that Martha herself provides does emerge at some point in this story and actually maybe just talk us through that version that what's the time space between those two things do we know? So well, this is the interesting thing. is haed on the sixth, Malth is committed sort of ninth, the tenth of July, her trials on the twenty first and up until this point she is sticking to this. Okay. Okay She doesn't speak at her own trial The defense don't really talk about the wholeor story, but they try and posit all sorts of other things about why she wouldn't have been able to do it Eventually she confesses and up until fairly recently appea that she confessed to the prison chaplain and the prison governor on the eighth of August. so the day before she's due to be executed. She confesses this is her official confession But the material that I've found, she confesses earlier than that. She doesn't disclose any of this during the trial. but after the trial As the appeal process is being started, she confesses to her solicitors. actual fact has happened is that John's come in at two o'clock in the morning, steaming drunk and they have a huge row. and he beats her and this isn't the first time he's beaten it. And it's a really vicious attack. he He kicks the chair out from under her. He kicks her again, He pulls a horse whip down off the wall and making all sorts of threat and is violent against her and she just loses it. She lashes out, he bends down to undo his boots and she picks up littleittle kind of it's a blunt that she's been using to break coals to heat the fire up and smashes him around the head with it And she says, as soon as she'd done it, She regretted it. like absolutely immediately. And that's yeah, ultimately the version of events that we feel is true. Yeah. So we have these to version of events, as you say. and historians lean now more heavily towards that second confession that is then repeated later on. And as you say, you have discovered that this came actually earlier in the process than we thought In a moment, when we come back from this short break, we're going to rewind a little bit, look at the trial and see how we get to that confession that's coming up right after this break You want to get your backyard summer ready, but you don't want to break the bank? Wayfare gets it. Panning on dining alfresco or relaxing poolside Wayfair has everything you need to prep your space. Shop now and save up to seventy percent off during Wayfare's Fth of July clearance. Score huge deals on outdoor furniture, area rugs, and more. We're talking thousands of products for every style and budget. Plus, sururprise Flash Deals July sixth. Don't wait. Shop Wayfare's Fth of July clearance now through july six at wayfare dot com d Pay fair, every style, every home. So good, so good, so good New summer arrivals are at Nordstrom Rack stores now. Get ready to save big, with up to sixty percent off brands like Rag and Bone, Levi', Adidas, and Free People. Join the Nordy Club to unlock exclusive discounts, shhop new arrivals first, and more. Plus, buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack What started the Civil War What ended the conflict in Vietnam Who was Paul Revere? And did the Vikings ever reach America I'm Don Weildman, and on American History hit, my expert guests and I are journeying across the nation and through the years to uncover the stories that have made America We'll visit the battlefields and debate floors where the nation was formed, meet the characters who have altered it with their touch, and count the votes that have changed the direction of our laws and leadership. Find American History Hit twice a week every week, wherever you get your podcasts. American History Hit, a podcast from History Hit Right, Bros. It's now twenty first of july, eighteen fifty six, we are still, as you said, it was the eighth of August that we initially thought that that counter confession comes out. But so we're still in a world where she's maintaining Martha's maintaining innocence at this point Give us walk us through the trial. how does it play out? I can imagine, but I'm gonna hope that I'm not G getting ahead of myself here, but I have a feeling it doesn't go well. It doesn't go well. great. And it's not It's not just because of the evidence against Martha or the fact that she's maintaining her innocence in this context. The prosecution only have circumstantial evidence There's a lot of it and it's fairly compelling and everyone suspects that it was Martha but they still have to make that case. So they bring in The entirety of Martha's community, all her family, her friends, her neighbours, All of them U made to come and prosecution witnesses, they all testify to the forensic evidence that that was There's little and again, we are dealing with kind of newspaper reports rather than depositions that have beenoded, yes in the archives becauseon H, the archives But there's obviously a clear line of questioning from the prosecution that this is about kind of forensic evidence and nothing else, there was no other explanation for this crime. alsoso people testifying to John's good character as well and one the curate, local curate, the Reverend de laa Fos, who makes special mention of the fact that you know Everybody is incredibly moved by John's death. His mother has fainted away and Martha is unmoved. She's cold and unfeeling Martha hass then got to try and make a defense and she does have solicitors. she does have defense counsel, which all working people would have had This is paid for by her lovely former employer, John Sims of Purbose Yeah. abbssolute legend but the solicitors briefed twenty four, thirty six hours before the trial started And then as they themselves said They had just almost no time. to get the kind of evidence statements that have been given to the magistrates and then hand them over to the defense counsel. So there is no proper defense at all And so you know, and half the witnesses that were brought by the prosecution hadn't made statements before the magistrate. so the defense counsel didn't even know what they were going to say reallyally horrendously impossible position So his defense is firstly kind of procedural. This is impossible for us to defend this case Th then he tries to sort of suggest that you know, he uses the same sorts of tropes that we'll see repeated time and time again that Martha couldn't have done it Because she's a woman. A woman wouldn't slash someone over the head. If they were going to kill the husband, they would have poisoned.ure because that's the only way women are how to do it. No, no. And also this is a time when there's been a lot of poisoning going on. Yeah there's a you And actually two male poisoners convicted and executed in eighteen fifty six men actually. anyway. that you know, she couldn't have done it I suppose one of the important things they do point out is the fact that why would she kill him because He, you know They are financially dependent on one another. and she herself said, you know, why would I kill him and end up losing my home? and having to sleep under a hedge. you know they kind of labor this point. There's also the accusation that the prosecution m is that Martha was motivated by jealousy because yes,ir. There's a potential other woman. There's a potential other woman, a woman closer to John's age course called Mary Davis. and that, you know, then the defense' like, Well, she's an older woman. she's not going to be motivated by jealousy. This is someone who has you know, life experience and things like that. Th then it's like, o maybe he got robbed on the way home because you know, they're kind of clutching at straws here. and they call one witness The defense do. One witness, and that's lovely John Sims. The man who owned the hes, yeah who is just there to testify to Martha's good character. she's nice. And just said she's amazing, you know, as inoffensive and lovely woman as I'd ever met in my life. And he has no Everybody else that she knew been brought in a prosecution Right. So there is this stacking of evidence against her there's no time really to prepare a proper defense even in terms even in the context of nineteent century legal procedure I'm imagining the outcomess not good. No, the outcome is not good. I mean The jury clearly are concerned Because it takes them nearly four hours. Does it? Yeah. so they go out about six PM ish and they're called back by the judge at around ten PM. Now this isn in a time when juries could come back in twenty thirty minutes. They might as well just turn around and have a little puddle huddle. No, no no. these guys are out for nearly four hours And they come back in And they still haven't reached a verdict. and they want to recall one of the medical experts that testified and to check that none of the head wounds could have been exacerbated by moving the body and all the postmortem process they'll go that actually. So they check that then they have a quick kind of huddle deliberation and then they do come back I just want to go home the verdict. Yeah. Yeah. and they find are the guilty. And bear in mind She's been found guilty of murder Llihood is the sentence is going to be and is indeed Sergeant Burt Chanel, who's the justustice presiding over these proceedings puts on the little black cap and does the full kind of theatrical He completely agrees with the jury and explains how, you know, this is an aggravated form of murder. It's not just a murder. it's your husband, it's the man you promise to love, honor and obey. and it's kind of really drawing on that sort of inheritance of kind of petty treason and the idea that this is a totally, you know, It's not just irregular crabending society. Indeed. Yeah, exxactly that inversion of the social order. Yeah ye. So we have a situation where she's gone to trial, she's been found guilty, she's been sentenced to death. And this is what I found unusual about this. that kind of when The real investigation in the defense starts to a certain extent. And am I right in thinking Because I have the testimony here that she supposedly gives in relation to what actually might have happened that night. Is it your understanding that in with the new material that you found that this kind of emerges around this time during that So investigation. Yeah, almost Immediately after , there's a kind of al to have her sentence commuted. So they're not suggesting that Martha didn't do it. Sure. they They haven't suddenly gone well, actually know we believe the story about the horse now But what they're saying is it's not premeditated. So you know, this isn't murder. This is someone who in a violent passashion lashed out and that she'd been really seriously provoked. So you've got petitions coming in from all over Dorset, lots of the abolitionist movement therere getting involved, but there's lots of loc ones. There's one from Broadwindsor, her home parish that's signed by the overseers of the poor The local gentry and pretty much everybody who'd been a prosecution w Yes. Yeah. There's like one hundred and fifteen signatures on this petition. there are hundreds of others signatures on the other petitions. And it's quite unusual. It is. I haven't encountered this before. And you know, again, this is like another side thing we could go into finding out this is how unusual this is, herer solicitors are so concerned about how poorly trial went because they'd had so little time and because of this disadvantage around not being able to see any of the evidence to actually kind of build a case for her They decide to go back to Birdsmore Gate after she's confessed to them a roundab So like end of July and go and sort of what I think they talk about testing the truth of kind of what she said. So they go back to Birdsmoregate and interview everybody they can find who knew Martha and John and get sworn notarized statements that they compile together and then send to the homeome seecretary to say, lookook absolutely new evidence. They explain the situation about the defense ask him to consider this and to consider commuting the sentence. I want to read new confession that kind of emerges at this time where she sets up the context of what may really have happened. Just a warardning for listeners, this does contain a description of domestic violence. so you may want to skip forward about a minute or so if you don't want to stick around for this part of it. But she has said He struck me a severe blow on the side of my head, which confused me so much that I was obliged to sit down Supper was on the table and he said, Eat it yourself and be damn. At the same time, he reached down from the mantelpiece, a heavy horse whip with a plain end and struck me across the shoulders with it three times, each time I screamed out I said, If you strike me again, I will cry murder He retorted, If you do, I will knock your brains through the window He then kicked me on the left side, which caused me great pain. and he immediately stooped down to untie his boots I was such enraged and in an ungovernable passion, on being so abused and struck, I directly seized a hatchet which was lying close to where I sat. I struck him several violent blows on the head. I could not say how many. He fell at the first blow on his head, with his face towards the fireplace. he never spoke or moved afterwards What if I'm fascinating about that? Many things But you are getting You were being invited in behind a closed door. into a home, a nineteenth century, a mid nineteenth century home where this woman is describing a repeated pattern and to her an identifiable pattern of emotional, verbal, physical abuse and It is Rre, I think, I mean, you can speak to this significantly better than I can It's rare that She is able to do that even after the trial. and I know what you're saying earlier about people being like, why didn't she say something before But like We hear this even now. like, well why didn't you say at the time, right? It's This is a complex thing, but what I find interesting about it as you mentioned before I read that out about the neighbors, that they reapproached the neighbors. Talk us through what new evidence they managed to gather from the neighbors because this seems to corroborate what she's saying there. And I think this is a significant thing And again in reflecting on the case. I mean, I kind of feel like we shouldn't have to have these statements for her confession to be believed. But we do now have this kind of corroborating evidence. When Garland and Var, the solicitors go back to Birdsmoregate and they talk to everybody, pretty much everybody says, yeah John used to get drunk. John was probably having a away with Mary Davis or behaving improperly anyway, and that he mistreated, physically, emotionally, psychologically mistreated Martha and I think probably the most poignant is when they the statement that's given by Susan Damon, who is Richard Damon's wife. They both were prosecution witnesses. Richard Damon was John's cousin. and they' very close And she's clearly an intimate friend of Martha's and she talks about how Martha had been sitting in her kitchen Anne had pulled down like the sleeve for dress and shown her the bruises on her body and they remember John threatening to go and kill Mas And they actually kind of got him to stay in their kitchen for a couple of hours and just like just jo like calm. And they held on to him. so that he didn't go and beat her. So that managing this as well as being aware of it. They're kind of actively involved in trying to protect Martha and there's another one of the statements that says they're pretty sure that the screams they heard Night u the small hours of the sixth of July were masters and not Johns M God, that's quite chilling actually, isn't it? It brings to mind again, this living in close proximity with other people that you are part of their everyday life to a certain extent. and that goes from good to bad to ugly to where you're hearing this woman's scream at night. also highlight something else. and I think this is where this is quite radical in some ways because we have An idea whether it's orally received or whatever it is, that actually when we encounter domestic abuse situations in the nineteenth century and even well into the twentieth century actually, that is like, well, of course, we knew it was going on, but it wass not our place to get involved.ay We'll stay out of that now and they can manage he can manage his own home and if he needs to do whatever he needs to do. We are told, even still, historians will say that that's how domestic violence was viewed and managed Something else is happening here. no, and I think this is the thing. as We know now, I think, hopefully, and again, maybe not enough It's so much more complicated than that about that relationship between knowledge and action and the personal relationships that underpin all this. And It's not There is such condemnation of this sorts of behaviour, but there are also all sorts of more complex or nuanced reasons why people didn't immediately try and kind of send him off to the magistrates or get the police involved because 's it is their relationship, but it's a question of what happens if you then try and get you know, John punished. Does she face further physical reprisals How does she maintain herself if he's banged up? You know, this is free eighteen seventy eight Matrimonial Cuses A. There's no financial settlements for separations. There's the fact that you would have to expose yourself and your husband, who you may in fact still love despite the fact he's an absolute bastard. that you don't want to expose yourself or your relationship, that you love him, that He's family members are supporting you. Yeah. That complexity of relationship around clearly they don't want Marath to be hurt, but it's also their cousin, you know, it it's such a complex situation, but it does I hope nuance some of that understanding around whether it's acceptable or not. Increasingly, I don't think it is acceptable in Victorian society. But It's much more complex and I think, you know people had much more kind of human and rational feelings than we give them credit for around this, you know? Yeah. I also think like there's something Sure, they're not running to the magistrate straight away or they're not involving some kind of you know force or legal procedure straight away. But it also does seem like there's some form of community management system that they are utilizing in order to try and blunt the edges of this for her benefit and his benefit probably by some of the sounds of that because you know, they're sitting with him, they're telling him to calm down. They're not necessarily running to her and be like, get out quickly because this guy's on the way. They're trying to manage him there but keep him away from her at the same time. Look, it's not a glowing recommendation of this is exactly handled in the perfect way. It's not that Do nuance what we think we know about that that's happening behind their closed door, I can hear it, but I'm not doing anything about it. This idea that it's, you know the private spere, and therefore nothing It's no. and I think generally and again we only get to this. court records when Either you know, the victim has come forward or something even worse has happened. Y that people say, no, I did know and I tried to manage it like this you know, And yes, it's not glowing, but Again, and I'm pretty sure if you've spoke to lawyers and police now It is not straightforward now that this complexity, particularly around people's personal relationships and financial position and feelings mean it is not simply a question of Arest them and I'll come up. Yeah, you know. On the surface of it at least now, we have some compelling evidence to support the fact that I mean, they didn't have a concept of this in the eighteen fifties, but that there is an element of self defense here. There are other mitigating circumstances, shall we say, that led to this the death of John on paper, at least you were getting quite confident that this might mean, okay, Martha's probably going to remain in jail, but we'll probably have the death sentence commuted. Stick around after this short break though because that's not how this pans out You want to get your backyard summer ready, but you don't want to break the bank? Wayfare gets it. planning on dining alfresco or relaxing poolside Wayfair has everything you need to prep your space. Shop now and save up to seventy percent off during Wayfare's fourth of July clearance. sccore huge deals on outdoor furniture, area rugs, and more. We're talking thousands of products for every style and budget. Plus, sururprise Flash Deals July sixth. Don't wait. Shop Wayfare's Fth of July clearance now through july sixth at wayfare dot com d Pay fair, every style, every home. What started the Civil War What ended the conflict in Vietnam Who was Paul Revere And did the Vikings ever reach America? I'm Don Weildman, and on American History hit, my expert guests and I are journeying across the nation and through the years to uncover the stories that have made America. We'll visit the battlefields and debate floors where the nation was formed, meet the characters who have altered it with their touch, and count the votes that have changed the direction of our laws and leadership Find American History Hit twice a week every week, wherever you get your podcasts. American History Hit, a podcast from History Hit Right, It's looking better. It's looking up for Martha now. and you can imagine a world in which things get ironed out a little bit more, as I say, probably gonna to stay in jail, but we might continue to live Bizarrely, This is not what happens. No. Why? Oh, this is where this case really starts playing into something bigger Now I'm not suggesting that what wasn't happening to Martha and that community wasn't a life alter community alter tri This is where it plays into a much kind of bigger national picture. So At this point, you're right Most women With this sort of evidence, they would have their sentence commuted. they would face penal servitude for life, potentially Yeah Um, but it's becoming a really hot topic. So just a few months before Martha Um It's tried April Maytime. twowo things are happening First of all There is the trial of Celestina Summer, the old Bailey in april eighteen fifty six, and she is tried for absolutely brutal murder of her ten year old daughter. Okay Again, this is really graphic and, but it' material. She takes her daughter into the cellar and cuts her throat and the maid who trying to sleep or failing to sleep upstairs. H's the whole thing So it's fairly kind of open and shut in terms of what happens and Soestida Summmer is found guilty and sentenced to death. Another woman around the same time is also Elizabeth Anne Harris is also found guilty for the murder of her two children, much younger and she's alleged to have drowned them. And this is very much bound up with her situation of being unable to financially support them. She's found guilty also sentenced to death. So at this point end of April we've got Tw women in Newgate who might be facing the death penalty. Yeah. This is unprecedented execution scheduled huge popular appeal for Harris's campaign. There are some petitions sent for Celestina's summer and Sir George Gray, who' home secretary grants a reprieve for both of them At the same time, there's a House of Lords Select committee sitting which is being headed up by Samuel Wilforce, who's the Bishop of Oxford And the concern of this select committee is the operation of capital punishment craving effect it is having on people who watch public executions is their big thing, but also the fact that there's no consistency peopleeople keep getting let off. The sentences keep being commuted, they keep being given a reprieve partarticularly women and that this is kind of basically stopping the deterrent effect of public executions. And it's kind of getting all bound up with kind of the masses and the way they behave. you know, they're obviously much you they're the ones watching, there's loads of people watching, it's not but the working people are the concern But the impact this could be having on female criminality is something that starts becoming part of the discussion And Celestina Summer's case because it is so clearly or considered to be such a clearly abominable crime keeps getting brought up as this lookook, you know, you're not even going to hang a woman like her There's been an abolitionist movement in Britain since at least the kind of seventeen eighties, it's kind of formalized in the eighteen forties and they've been kind of quiet around trying to get the death penalty ended in the eighteen fifties because there's so much concern about an increase in violent crime. but they seize on this moment June eighteen fifty six, William Ewart, who's the leading abolitionist MP. In Parliament says right, we need a common select committee because look, this is what the Bishop of Oxford is coming up with lookook at Celestina Summer in this case, we're not hanging women anymore. And if we're not hanging women anymore How can we be hingmen? So they seize on this as a kind of opportunity push abolition George Greay gets up in Parliament and he's like, no, no, no, no. I don't want, I think the phrase any erroneous rumours to get abroad that we don't hang women anymore And he says, you know, of course, he pays very careful attention to any special circumstances that come across his death He will think about public opinion as well because it is important to take it into account. Because, you know, the law has to be seen to be just and people don't, you know, bind to it getross. If there's no reason why there's no kind of point at law why a sentence should be commuted, it will stop. A yeah. Yeah So I seen as Martha Brown is hanged the beginning of August You see this flurry of correspondence straight in to the newspapers. It's across the Times everything peopleople saying, Martha Brown was hanged because Celestina Summer was let off. and that this is Sir George Gray pututting right his error and I think there's something in it that it's almost an administrative or political maneuvering to demonstrate that women are still subject to the death penalty and actually There are other cases that are happening. Can I just ask? it's just occurring to me And and this is my own ignorance now, but you mentioned the name Celestina there. What's the class difference between the women who got off and the? Well this is this is really interesting. And I think if you look the calculations that are made and class is part of it between Celestina and Martha This is where I think there is absolutely something to be said.'s not And it wasn't just abolitionists saying, this is you putting you things right. People who thought he was correcting, you know potentially dangerous precedent, you know, we agreed with him writing it. So Celestina Summer, her father was a silversmith and her husband's an engraver. She was a music teacher . so she's Not necessarily particularly aristocratic or anything, No. She's married, certainly a different class to the Browns. She keeps a maid servant as well But if you look at We've got Greay's annotations on her file. And he explains kind of his reasoning and he says that there's no legal reason to let Celestina summer off. None He is concerned about the effect on public opinion of hanging a young, she's in her twenties Good looking woman who through the course trial is understood to have been seduced when she was kind of in her mid teens. the daughter is the product of this Seduction that she's otherwise supported this child, that she was mistreated by her husband An he slide. If we execute her And it's going to be it's going to be a shit show, you know, everyveryone's going to think we're horrendous Yeah. And he makes this calculation writes it down And you know, it's not completely unreasonable In his first tenure as home secretary, there was another woman hanged, I think in Burry St. Edmunds in eighteen forties and The crowd was so incensed by it, they were shouting shame and murder her execution. So you know, he doesn't want to kind of involve himself in this. Whereas Martha, you know, obviously iss completely wrong headaded. People are like, how could you let this horrendous monster of a woman off She cut a ten year old daughter straight Yeah. like they're incensified But Martha's not that she's older. Yeah She is working class. Um Shes been she's not vulnerable or her vulnerability isn't obvious. Whereas Celestina Summer is this petite Young. fair woman who sits and is clearly agitated all the way through her trial Martha is repeatedly described as being incredibly stoic that she just sits there And I'm like, I say stoicism. She's probably terrified in that courtroom So drive for her life Everybody she knows Everyone in Countter Society is watching. The courtroom is packed blokes are making these decisions about what's going to happen to her. And she just sits there rigid counted against her. herer marriage counted against her, the fact that they were married in a registry office and not in church was counted against her The Vicar of Broadwindsor actually writes to the homeome seecretary and says You mustn't listen to these people who want to let her off, because we need to send a message to the whole community because they're a lawless bunch. He talks about being full of arsonists and thieves in his words prostitutes, you know She's an appropriate candidate to me this point with. Yeah Well, that's good. I think was terrible. but it's like appropriate candidate.s that's a really key element of this, I think. Just cannot help you know, Gray's response to all of that evidence that is sent to him Buy Garland and fit He gets his under seecretary, Horatia Waddington to write anate them saying George Gre, thank you very much, regrets to say that there is no basis here. sticking to it and that's it. And it's like Really clear evidence of provocation. Yeah really clear evidence of provocation And again, there is this huge backlash. Everybody who's concerned about it makes the comparison. You've let this woman off cut her daughter's throne and you've hanged this woman who being attacked by her drunken dissipated husband, Last night out It was a crime of passion. It was not premeditated murder, and those comparisons are made publicly We've saved them tntil the end But I think This is how I and sadly aware of Martha Brown's cases because of the link with Hardy. That's how I would have and it's peripheral. It's very it's the name I know because of Hardy. Yeah absolutely What is that link though? Why is it just because of all those arguments that come out in the paper that he suddenly latched onto the? Not at all. No. And I mean, while he was lterally aware of those those newspaper accounts Some years later, and we're talking like, know well after Test has been written and published in the eighteen nineties in the nineteen twenties, it' kind of where we can cite this clear evidence is that he recalled to his great friend, Hester Pinney, who lived Racedown is very near where Martha lived he to her watching her execution when he was about sixteen years old. Right. And he's one of three four thousand people who stood outsideores to jail. and he writes to her the most