Smithsonian Air and Space Museum Renovation

This is the Airplane Geeks podcast. We aim to educate and inform you exxplore and expand your passion for aviation and entertain you a little along the way This episode, we talk with an airport director about air service and passenger growth growing airport parking capacity. The impact of FAA capping flights due to air traffic control capacity and implementing a new required navigation performance or RNP approach to mitigate aircraft noise. In the news The U.S. Coast Guard thinks that changes to helicopter routes around DCA may increase the likelihood of helicopter to helicopter collisions The U.S. Air Force selects collaborative combat aircraft airframers, but decouples mission autonomy software. Canada signals interest in the Global comombat Air program She can't a next generation fighter The FAA proposed changes to modernize and harmonize commercial aircraft certification rules with theASA in another runway near Miss Also, attended the Air and Space Museum Media preview of the opening of five new galleries And hello Glazier brings us some recordings All that and more is coming up Right now Welcome to the Airplane Geeks podcast. This is episode eight hundred ninety nine of the show where we talk aviation IX fight And with me is first our main man, Micah. He's co host of the Journey is the Reward podcast Good evening, good morning, or good afternoon, depending on when you're listening or where you are. Great to be here tonight, looking forward to the show a whole lot And also with us is Rob Mark He's a business jet pilot, he's a journalist, CFI. He also publishes jetwine. comot And he produces these stories about flying podcasts Hey, good evening everybody from Balmy, Chicago where I know I'm not supposed to talk the w It's ninety seven. Oh. How warm is it by you? That's hot. That's really hot Yeah. I think it's hot just about everywhere Also with us is David Vand derhof, our aviation historian from the American Helicopter Museum. If you don't believe in global warming,, yeah Turn off the show now because we're going to complain that it's hot All right, well our guest this week is a returning guest Bradbury. He's the airport director Portland Jetport in Maine. Hi Paul. Wlcome back. Hey, thank you for having me. looking forward to the discussion. really always appreciate my time with this podcast and airplane geeks. We enjoy having you and I wanted to mention that you're not just some administrator guy who just swooped into the job recently with limited understanding of airport operations. Aa, you've been at the jetport for quite a while Oh, now you're dating me. This is This is a challenge now. People can't see, but I have plenty of gray hair. So certainly yes. it's shocking to me. Nobody's more surprised than myself that it has been yes over three decades So three decades at one airport, very unusual for an airport director And and then the other kind of unusual thing is my background is engineering So although I don't get to somebody said I'm now a political engineer, not a professional engineer So we'll go with that after over a, you know, after a few decades in administration. So we'll stick with that. But yes, it's been a long time and really, really fun and great opportunity No I got to say the first time I met Paul, it was at a tour of the airport right after the new It was completely redesigned. and he mentioned he was a mechanical engineer and he was so excited and which really excited me about the geothermal heating and cooling system that he put in And it's like, wow, this is so great. And so we were talking about that. And it much to the chagrin of other people on the tour that were waiting to see the airport. That was so much fun. And it's always interesting because yes, at some points, it is always fun to geek out on the technology and the engineering And then as one of my other colleagues will just give me the nice friendly kick to move on Well, you know what they say? onnce an engineer, always an engineer, you can't, uh You don't lose the engineering perspective, I think A at least most people don't All right, well, we've got a lot of interesting airport topics to talk about with Paul, but we're going to start out with some of the aviation news from the past week. And we'll start off with an item in the air current And this is helicopter collision risk higher after DC airspace changes this is what Coast Guard leaders are saying And Mike, I found this very interesting. This was not what we expected right? We expected after the, you know, the tragic collision approach to DCA that things would get better, but maybe not everything's getting better Yeah, this was in the air current, and it's a safety related article. so it's free for everybody. You don't need a subscriber to you don't need to be a subscriber to be able to read this. And apparently, on june seventeenth at the public Tansportation Research Bard meeting, the Coast Guard suggested that the FAA didn' didn't weigh all the risks of helicopter on helicopter collision when they moved to eliminate the helicopter routes in DC And they said that the changing the airspace procedures to protect against close calls between rotoccraft and fixed wing aircraft was inappropriate compared to charting revisions that would be pushing that the current revisions are pushing helicopters closer together, which makes it harder for crews to train in proficiency, and it increases the risk of helicopter controlled flight into terrain which is exactly what you wouldn't want to see happen. and they don't the Cast Guard doesn't believe the FAA took all of that into account Yeah. Now of course, the FAA has a different perspective. We see that the FAA assistant administrator for commommunications That's Hannah Walden She said claims that these changes increaseed the risk of helicopter to helicopter collisions are not supported by the data And she also added that the FAA's actions were guided by emergency National Transportation Safety Board recommendations after that trash and twenty five so there's a little difference in perspective I guess the rules that we have now from the FAA are actually interim final rules. and that the final rule is yet to be implemented. But the FAA said that in this interim final rule There were only a couple of comments. In fact, only two comments were published to the public document. The inference being that if there was a problem, how come somebody didn't didn't say something things sooner and that neither of those comments were from any military agency sort of an open issue, I guess. Yeah. And the fact is flying around DC is a challenge and you need to practice flying around DC. So when you close off airspace helicopters you don't have all that space to practice and there are a lot of helicopters flying around DC. So it's an interesting difference of opinion and I'll be curious to see how it's resolved This Transportation Research Bard I hadn't been familiar with that. I don't know if you guys know about this. It's actually part of the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine and they self describe themselves as anicipate and solve complex transportation related challenges And they do this through moreore than five thousand five hundred enngineers, scientists, other transportation researchers and practitioners both from public and private sectors as well as academia. program is apparently supported by state Departments of Transportation. some federal agencies and other organizations individuals. So This is the first time I that I recall, running across this transportation research board Maybe it's something we could look into a little more detail All right, next up, a military story. This is from Breaking Defense. . com Air Force ps General atomics Andereil to build first CCA throne wingmen. So The Air Force has selected those two companies, generally atomics and Andereil And this is to build the first CCA, the collaborative combat aircraft in those compompanies beat out Lockheed Martin, Boeing and North and Northrop Grumman in a in a re solicited competition So this is the Anderil FQ eight or FQ four. Fury in the General Atomics FQ forty two Merlin. I guess that's the FQ forty four A Fury from Andor David, these are the loyal wingmen. Is that right? The military couldn't go with the generic term, but collollaborative meaning that these are the aircraft that will be flying with F sixteen, F thirty five and will be a quote loyal wingman, basically flying ahead of the manned aircraft to execute bomb runs An aircraft attacks, etcetera Um Both aircraft have flown successfully, The other onees who didn't and the reselect dropped out which is kind of funny because Boeing owns General Aomics So maybe they were competing against themselves, per se. They're basically going to be another In fact, they look like the size of an F sixteen and they will be you'll have as many as four aircraft flying with a manned aircraft which in some of theent most recent scenarios will be A Grig help when you look back to the Iranian launch a get the drones and missile systems they launched against Israel in the fall of last year We had multiple aircraft up that were running out of ammo. Well, if you have a force multiplier like this, That is to use my favorite new military word att tritable You will have a better chance of getting those drones at the cost of would be well Most importantly the human life, but the also the expense of a man fighter like an F thirty five or A F twenty two or even an F fifteen theseese days. the um F thirty five is has had this in the background. since its inception that it was going to be a data node for all of these unmanned aircraft and as a way to execute them So they they have flown now under control and land. We have flown aircraft. Um via from one aircraft to another that successfully So and the Air Force is trying to keep this cheap and on schedule, which is not like them, but Um This program's only been two or three years old and we've got flying aircraft and we've got Almost a production aircraft sketch. The next step would be probably firing weapons using their flight from the ground and then followed by executing aircraft with mananned aircraft One of the challenges will be transferring the drone from one aircraft to another say you have a aircraft that has to go back or be able to transfer that information from the one manned aircraft to another manned aircraft to take control swapping that midfight. That'll be It's going to be a bit of a challenge, but that's where these two drones are going Is there's something interesting David, I was going to ask o, David, I was going ask h, you know, as a pilot, I'm trying to figure out will it be single pilot fighters that are you know, in charge of the drones as well or would it be Yes a two So how in the world do they fly the airplane and control a drone at the same time Software pretty Software. the technology is there that especially with the F thirty five, the F thirty five is designed to be a digital manager. It's capable of handling All of the information from the remotely controlled aircraft to the manned aircraft. All the I mean The aircraft themselves will be pretty much flying autonomously network to the F thirty five. So the flying part of the drone would be done by the dronone. if that makes sense, right? But the targeting information the assumptions on what to shoot, all of that would be controlled by the mann, but they would all be interlinked as a constant form of communication between the manned aircraft and the unmanned aircraft It's basically just another weapons system like like directing a missile is what I'm guessing, David. Is that correct Yeah, although these aircraft are much smarter than say a missile Pilots have been operating aircraft and missiles at the same time for years. I mean, going all the way back to Vietnam with the tow missile where the missile was flown by someone in the cockpit Likewise, we've used in the Gulf War, all of the u the aircraft that we're using, not GPS, but Line of sight. where the pilot flew the missile or the bomb into whatever the target was. They're flying the bomb and the aircraft. So it's not Rob it's sort of not the biggest step. that you think it is, especially with a whole set of computers behind the controlled configured aircraft. And these computers are not operating on Windows ninety eight, right? I hope no, D deffinitely. But Okay. Windows ninety eight was probably more stable than a lot of our programming using AI right now Well, on the issue of software, one of the interesting aspects of this is that the Air Force is decoupling the mission autonomy software from the airframe. So whereas Anderil and external atomics are going to build the air build the airframes the control software, the autonomy software is is a separate decision And in fact, Andreil. Holland's Aerospace and Shield AI were're all awarded production options for the autonomy software And they are supposed to compete in a six month to head round and the primary autonomy provider expected to be named summer next year twenty twenty twenty seven But I get the sense that they're not looking for a the Air Force is not looking for a single aconomy software provider. there might be a you know, a primary, but they want to have multiple companies Um, being able to offer offer this software It's interesting. I you know, I would love to know the real real logic behind that kind of approach. I could imagine it might be because of the complexity of the software And having that risk spread amongst several providers Um Mike be the you know, the logic behind this choice, but they've decoupled the software Also, Max, keep in mind that U from the front from the production after the production, etcetera when you're using combat You're minimizing spares You're minimizing training you're not training three different exquisite suites of software. You're training on one The other part about it is the aircraft It won't matter what airframe is flying. It's the software will be the same for the pilots who are flying the manned aircraft. so they don't need to learn whether they have a an XQ forty four on their wing or an XQQ forty two. It doesn't matter to them. It's just a vehicle that will be carrying weapons. and that's why the software is not exquisite. They are really trying to learearn from the Ukraine war where You want to Go back to the infamous, keepeep it simple, stupid These are aircraft that are going to be disposable. They're not going and the simpler you can make them And the cheaper you can make them, the more that you can make of them and the less they when you lose them. I mean, we lost a lot of MQ ninees in this current last conflict. and they were exquisite aircraft, you know, and Whereas Iran launched thousands of drones and probably it costs less than what we had losses in M Q ninees So that's where we're going is these are going to be disposable aircraft Well, continuing u some some military news. We've been talking about Canada and what they're looking at or talking about for fighter purchases coming up And we did this last week. I think had a pretty lengthy conversation about this, but Mico we see from the war zones that there's Tokyo a meeting in Tokyo. And David McGuintty McGuintty, I guess the The Canadian Minister of National Defense He kind of offered up something that Canada might be thinking about Yes, there is a program going on. the Global Combat Air program, the GCAP, which is a next generation fighter program, I believe, that would be sixth generation. And please correct me if I'm wrong on that It's called the Tempest and Canada is looking at maybe taking part in that. And while last week, we talked about they going thinking about cutting back on the F thirty five purchases to pick up the Sab Griffins They're talking about being an observer with this program that is primarily led by the UK, Italy and Japan And u Rather than going full out on the F thirty five and even full out on the Griffin, they're looking at this and maybe becoming a part of it, meaning they could also do some manufacturing and be in this next generation fighter program that is a very interesting airplane And what they've done is they've formed a company called Edgewing and each of the u partartners, I guess, if you will, has a one third ownership in Edgewing being BAE systems, Mike I mentioned the UK. Italy, it's Leonardo and It's the Japan Aircraft Industrial Enhancement Company Yeah as I said, each own each hold a one third share in Eedgewing David, the Tempest is Is still in the concept stage, Is that right Yeah. I mean, this is I hate to say it, but European consortiums for aircraft don't necessarily work very well. Well, Airbust worked pretty well. For a military aircraft. Okay We have the tornado which was Germany, Italy, and Great Britain. The modern attempts to make fourth generation, fifth generation and now sixth generation gets into a lot of politics and like we saw last week in the news The Germany program is dissolving because people are dropping out of it Canada. And this article does say this, Canada would be fourth in line for the aircraft So if the aircraft is scheduled to fly for the first time in twenty thirty five you're talking about twenty fifty by the time they start getting their aircraft But you're going to need to save that money. by lowering what you're about to expend on. So The gripping and the lightning to. You're going to have to cut back those to save up for an aircraft that may or may not happen. Great Britain is in tumult over whether they actually need this aircraft or not Um an aircraft the class of an F twenty two or Technically the class of an F forty seven Um is a long way away, we're not even, we're not even there yet. So The only people who have flown a six generation fighter supposedly are the Chinese So you're talking about a large advancement for a small military a large expenditure for a small military which may or may not produce a product And sixth generation that Does that mean potentially optionally manned? What is that next step from five to six that hasn't been decided with the tempest, you know, likeikewise No mention of optional demand on the F forty seven and as well as the the aircraft in China. So It is desesigned to be cheaper than the F twenty two because the Air Force wants more of them Again, u It's going to be a network aircraft, much like the F thirty five where it's a battlepace control aircraft that it's doing more than just shooting down other things. It's controlling other aircraft Um have Super mobility, super agility I don't know what speed it is. you know, the F twenty two is still the fastest aircraft flying can fly cllose to Mck two without an after burner So These kind of classified things are not yet set and having multiple countries having their own wants and needs Um tend to foil these kind of programs All right, switching to commercial, the commercial side and As we know, there are different regulatory agencies around the world, right? We normally think of the FAA and Yasa in Europe And When it comes to certifying new aircraft There's a lot of similarities, but they're not identical terms of the certification process. And U. S. News is reporting that FAA has recently posed changes to modernize and harmonize commercial aircraft certification rules with Yasa And this proposal would provide consistent requirements That would reduce the cost, time and complexity of certifications, streamline the whole process, benefit the manufacturers Rob, in terms of the FAA and the AsSA and certifications I know thoughts on on this concept. I think it iss notot exactly something new I have to admit, I am not really that familiar with this. So Guy better just shut up. Okay, okay. What I'm curious about when when I read the articles, it seems like, you know, they're trying to speed things up and ease things a little bit which is the wrong word, I guess to say when you're talking about ESA EASA. but But I'm wondering what that means How would this have affected MCS, for example, That's my question. Does it mean it's going to be less safe You know, are they trying to push things through more quickly so that we have less safe planes in or planes that aren't quite as well reviewed? They didn't certify the MC seven because of icing issues. Took a long time for Boeing to actually figure that one out So It doesn't explain any of this, particularly in any of the articles or in the GAO discussion Yeah, the GAO report, u, this was, u published in twenty twenty two titled aircraft certification compomarison of U.S and European processes roving new designs of commercial transport airplanes And This this GAO being the government accountability office. for those of you outside the U.S. But this study directly compared FAA and YASA certification processes. and it found what they called significant asymmetry harmonization could eliminate in the wrong direction their words But they characterized GAO characterized theSA is using a risk based approach for evaluating compliance findings and reviews the technical basis of compliance determinations, including oversight of all aspects involved in designing the airplane And they say the FAA on the other hand, and by contrast, reviews the completeness of certification packages and compliance determinations in high risk areas But this review does not customarily include an independent review of the technical basis for compliance determinations. So what my takeaway from that is the The GAO kind of found that There's there's sort of a fundamental underllying difference in the basis for the way that the certifications are done which course would make harmonization particularly tricky So I have the feeling this is something that if if it does move forward, it's going to move forward maybe in slow steps and take Quite a bit of time, I guess kind of like the idea of them being different and them certifying from different directions because it means that you have something that's safer. If the US says it's safe and YSA says it's not, then maybe we need to be looking at that. And Paul, I see you nodding your head. I think your engineering brain is kind of going as you're looking at this Yeah, no, it's it's I think you're on to something there, Mike for sure that two different regulatory scenarios can give a benefit, right? Because they're looking at the problem in two different directions and they may uncover something that one misses that the other does not I also recognize that There are probably opportunities for conformance that would make the process faster while still Um, guaranteeing those, you know, the kind of those safety thoughts. So my mind was racing as you were going there, Micah You know, on both the pros and cons. Yeah and I like this sort of check and balance kind of you know, view of the two the two regulatory agencies Yeah, I find that very appealing myself. All right, one more, I think one more. Yeah, one more news item and Rob, we had enough. We had another incident On the runways. planes same runway. This was in Miami, CNN reports American Airlines flight aborts takeoff in Miami after business jet. enters the same runway Yeah, this isn't supposed to happen I mean, and, you know, of course, Miami International is a really busy airport and u up on the north end of the airport there parallel There are three sets of parallels that at Miami, eight left, eight right and then a plain o old ordinary eight down on the far south end of the airport And this incident took place on the north side and we don't know all the details But we just know that an executive jet was crossing he was actually between eight left and eight right and the distance isn't that vast, but Apparently the The controller cleared another aircraft across eight left And this EJ crew thought was for them. and they crossed eight right And it would have been on fall fine except for the the aircraft that was taking off on eight Wite And luckily The American Airlines jet wasn't moving that fast when they they saw them downfield And they immediately just pulled it back. It stopped and and said you know, we're we got pull off the runway, but The interesting part was the The ground controller telling the EJ flight Hey, you crossed an active runway. He said You clered us across No, actually we didn't That was for marriageette Uh So we don't know they'll have to go back and list of the recording. It's possible some of the recording was was blocked. Maybe there was somebody else trying to transmit on ground at the same time And it was confusing again This is what we train for that when something like that happens, especially in this day and age, where an active runway is the end result to be crossed You stop and say, was that cleared across for executive Jet three hundred twenty nine and Crd would have said no, it absolutely was not They just Ia took it and ran and Luckily, it wasn't that close, but this is the second one. We just had that one L week up in Boston That was much closer and You know, runway incursions are are the worst kind of ground incident and The numbers are not going down. In fact, the number of incursions are going up. N leaps and bounds, but the numbers are going up and peopleeople are worried that remember last year when FAA said they're going to have a brand new air traffic control system and new radar, new everything and Yes, some of that is getting done You still have a basic Airplanes being where they're not supposed to be at the wrong time And u They haven't solved that one yet and with some of the plans they have in mind It may not be the best solution that they're suggesting Rob, you said remember last year and I'm thinking back to what was it two thousand nine before I was even on the show and you were talking about next generation ATC, you know that was right around the corner Well that's yeah, but I also remember that's when you were just a kid. So we didn't really expect you to know quite as much as you do now No, seriously, we have been talking about the new air traffic control system since nineteen eighty one, since the controller strike. And actually before that and it China gets going and makes a few changes here and there, but it's never been completely finished. Now I'll grant you, this administration has probably made more improve more improvements in the ATC system to date than any other administrations probably made in thirty years But they're not done And they're of course you know, very focused on the AI solution They haven't quite toold anybody how that's going to sort of fit into this new air traffic control system and what the AI part is going to do And they talk about it as the thing that's going to fix everything. And nobody quite knows what that's going to be Rob, I'm glad you said something because I was about to I was about to ask you Does it seem like we're talking about these runway incursions more than we used to? And and clearly in your opinion, we are. It just suddenly it's like it suddenly felt like it's becoming more commonplace and which is kind of scary. Yeah. Yeah. Well, of course too, you have a new a new generation of pilots in the airplanes you know, old crusty guys like us would probably I won't say couldn't, but probably wouldn't have made that mistake. when you've got, you know, new new crews and airplanes that don't have the same experience. and maybe I don't know how often this crew operated into and out of MIA Maybe, you know, they could have been there once. And u again, it's it's a lot to cope with and Man, when those controllers are banging out instructions, you know, you got to be ready Yeah because they get very upset when you miss it And so, you know, the crews that was for us, right? Yeah. Okaykay, let's go P, you know. Did they look down the runway and see the airplane? O the other on the far end of the Take offff side with the headlights goingoing Probably not Paul is this something these runway incursions that seem to be happening almost weekly or at least every other week. Is this something that you're following and are you dialing this into your thinking at all at the airport Yes, absolutely. And I mean, is it is disappointing. I mean, we'll talk a little bit about I mean, even Chicago this summer, right? I mean, we have capacity constraints constraints, you know, that have been mandated by the FA. which reeducing cap the amount of the amount of capacity that are really important provides to the system And why are we doing that Because we can't accommodate them with the system as it stands today. So how long? yeah, this is one back to Rob. I mean, we're all waiting anxiously. Nxt genen, I mean, you just talked about next genen And the the brand new air traffic control system We really need to get these This resolved in these issues under control in the system better. We can this is the US. We it's incredible the strides we've made in aviation We really need a system performs for all users of that system and keeps capacity and the ability to access the system available So yes, we need the brand new air traffic control system and we can't exist or provide the services we need to provide if We are closing capacity somewhat. I mean, it's perfect. We have to do it for safety. No questions on that front, but the system needs to be better So that this doesn't have to happen Well, sure. and they've been talking about the the amount of money that Secretary Duffy was able to rank a lot of Congress. I think thirteen billion dollars or something. but He said, look, This is this is a down payment And we need more to finish the job Well, yes, okay you know, if we got you the money today with the next Th or four steps B to make this all come together And, you know, there are sides that say we're going to do it with fewer humans And that's where the AI part comes in and againgain, it's pretty vague on that end and are pretty skeptical, but again, in the meantime is, you know, as Paul said, you've got these capacity restraints where planes just aren't flying because O'Hare can't take them or Hartsfield can't take them or LAX and Um There's nothing they can do about it. you know, something that occurs to me when people are faced with a problem, you know, they're trying to wrestle with how you sol sol how do you find a solution to this problem that you're looking at I like to turn around and look back in the other direction Because a lot of times that's where the solution might Aise. So You guys can shred me on this, but Roby' just turned around his chair Has anybody ever thought about how we need to change airports inststead of focusing on air traffic control. Well I mean, we can we still need to focus on that. but Has anyone turned around and looked in the other direction and said, wait a minute Maybe we need to design airports differently. Maybe the layout needs to be different. I don't know if anybody's ever thought about that. Yeah, okay, You gotta be kidding me. I told youve shred me on that. Go ahead, David. with all of Most of these airports were designed in the thirties, forties, and fifties. There is urban sprawl around these airports. So how are you going to change the runways or taxiways or whatever for something that now is in a permanent cage. And I was going to say the same thing that we're constrained by all the buildup that has come up around the airports Paul couldn't build a parking lot. It took him years and we're going to talk about this more, but it took him years to be able to get the people living nearby the airport who bought their homes by the airport that's been there for over a hundred years to say Okay, we'll let you build this parking lot here There's no way to that the jetport could change things around, you know? So I'll just say one more thing, which is that Those kinds of comments only reinforce my belief that you need to turn around and look the other direction because when people say, oh, we can't, it's always been that way makes me really, really suspicious So I'm not saying I can give you a solution. I'm just saying that, you know, this is where solutions us oftentimes lie in the directions people are not looking because they're blinded or because, you know, it's always been that way or it's in a box. This is why This is why we're spending billions of dollars on EVTL Yeah, because it's supposed to change the way people travel. Okay You know, I mean, it's You won't have runway incursions because they're vertical lift and you're not using runways you're not using runways, you know? And And the thing about an airport is They are massive acreage. Sure They have to be. When was the last time a new airport opened up out of, you know Denver. Denver was Denver. That's probably what? twenty five or thirty years ago Yeah, I mean There's the old adage that if you build an airport, they will come So you actually find enough territory to build an airport. you end up developing an infrastructure around it. I mean, Dullus is Dullus is a prime example There was nothing in that area when Dulles was put out, Northern Virginia. I remember that. It's in the woods. Now it's loaded. I mean, there's a whole civilization that have built up around that airport canan't make it expand because it's takaking all of space around the airport I mean, if you're going so I agree with you, Max. There's It would it's going to require if you if you want to do this, it's going to require a major major rethink And the same thing happened in Denver as well. I was living in Pueblo when they were proposing the new airport because I used to fly in and out of IAD of Stapleton and they were proposing a new airport. We were all joking. You're building the Darn airport so far east it's going to be in Kansas And now if you go out to Denver, It's all built up all around it. You'd have no idea that it was just one great big prairie I think that there are probably maybe at least three people that understand where I'm coming from. Three people listening to this But I know the majority don't Please write in if you have an idea Well, and I should say that there are obviously regulatory changes in safety been a part of airport design and development and FA regulatory work for years. I mean, we can go back to the runway safety areas which was the biggest u FA commment and deadline at the time, that was back in twenty fifteen So because the data said that undershoots and overruns at airports are an opportunity to be safer. And we had the instulation, people remember engineer material resting system. I'm glad we don't have them here in Portland But EMas, that's a way to stop aircraft that overrun because we did learn that. and we know that that a lot of that and even since I've been in the business, there have been huge changes Max at airports Back when I started peopleeople didn't think anything. you know, and these are these are professionals, airport professionals t think anything about crossing a runway for convenience I mean, we're going back decades, right? And why would we think that Because crossing a runway, it's controlled space, right? This is is a this is an airport. It's controlled. It's very safe. We have air traffic controllers. There's not this random person that's going to jump in front of you with a skateboard or something and be in the midst of traffic. It's got a fence around it. It's a safe, sterile. Let's go. let's call it sterile aviation safe environment But alas We all know that that makes no sense. And we look back on it and say now, why were we so stupid to think that crossing an active runway for convenience was Reasonable when it's not, you need an operational need. so even in my time There have been significant changes in airports and how operations happen and how we handle traffic U Now the one a current one is to is to mitigate in the what we call the high energy zone of a runway, mitigate crossings in the high energy zone of a runway So avoid having taxiways and other ways to cross a runway in that center third or the high energy zone. Just get rid of them. moveve them out of the way. So Max, I want to throw out that there is You know, these things happen and they do become important safety projects on the ground to continue that metric. Good, good. I feel a little better But no relocating a whole airport is is a is yeah,'' David on that one So Paul, how has air service and passenger levels been trending at the jetport. Before you answer that, I just got to say that when I think about the Portland Jetport, I think about Reno Nevada because the motto of Reno Nevada is the biggest little city in the world. And the Portland Jet port has become the biggest little airport in the world. It's unbelievable what Paul has helped do over the past several years. and now I'll throw it to you, Paul. Well, thank you for that, Micah. It really has been unbelievable. and we've A lot of great opportunity because Maine has this you know it is a great place for business and certainly for our summer seasonal. So if we could just show what happens in the market. It's really strong, especially this time of year as we enter the busy summer season June actually now all the way through October. So And why is that? There's history for Maine, right? That it's the the place back that most of the wealthy in New York City came to to spend their summers. And we know that in Bar Harbor and these big places that were built back in the early nineteen hundreds. So Maine has a lot to offer people and they' really we are just hitting critical mass u Again, just this weekend on Saturday, first transcontinental serervice to both San Francisco into into LAX, first time for Maine. So and I guess on that that the first trip in U you know, nice jet when, you know, nice the jet stream was great. So it was four hours, forty five minutes. So just unbelievable coming from California to Portland. Wow. Our asssistant director Zach Sunquist was on it and was just u loving how fast that was. Of course the return was six hundred forty five, but yeah the winds are a little different going that direction. Yeah But so where I mean, there were a lot of headwinds going into the season two and I think we can say this for the the business as a whole as well. But for us, capacity is really trending great for twenty twenty six, up four point seven percent But down from the post pandemic double digits Uh and all time record for May as we kick off the season But more importantly, I just with the headwinds and kind of these worldwide economics that are happening in Iran, we all weren't sure how those headwinds would play out. But even Scott Kirby with United is CEO of United has been out and saying he's just been really amazed at how resilient travel has been and we're seeing it as well right here in Portland So things stay pretty resilient and we're really benefing benefiting to it as as Mike I said, as as the great city of Portland and state of Maine How are passengers reacting to price increases that have been rather dramatic Amazing to me is People are continuing to they've just readjusted in one form or another, they're still buying. And that's what we that was where I was going from that message from Scott Kirby is that u The airlines are surprised by the resilience and the ability to increase pricing and the fact that it hasn't changed behavior. So V veryy surprising. I think we've also experienced post pandemic, right P are not when they want to experience, they are choosing to to fulfill that experience. And in this particular one, I also question whether they think this is just a blip, right? this is that this is short term and that that if I can just we'll just get through the short kind of high jet fuel price period and high aircraft price period. We'll pay for it now, but we'll get our experience and then things will correct six months from now Now Mike I mentioned earlier the u inccreased parking area that has taken a while to come together Tell us about that and where do we stand with that now Yeah, so so thankfully. I mean and again, In some ways, growth and not having enough parking good problems to have, right? is that we have this this need for parking But uh In hindsight, I didn't correctly understand some of the to the extent to which a uh a some neighbors were upset with the project. So Mike mayaybe you didn't either. But but now I know and you know, and we can all say Monday morning quarterbacking, I may have taken a slightly different approach to earlier on in the project hadad I known because you know, but at the end of the day now we have approval to make surface parking. and for your listeners, an interesting thing. Maine is a big rural state But there's a There's a feeling from some right in Portland that most of the people flying in and out. are from Portland and should just be taking the bus The reality is we serve all of Maine part of, you know, eastern New Hampshire and all the way into the Canadian maritimes and in a big rural state, there's only one way access and that is with a vehicle And that message ultimately did come out It just took a lot longer to to feed the data into the system And so what was approved by the Portland City Council was for surface parking, correct? And this is distinct from the Parking garage Correct. It's about five acres of surface parking. lot Part of it is a redevelopment of a former site that was parkingjet, a private operator But this gets it moving. and then also they approved design funding for the next phase of parking garage A. a little sooner than we anticipated, but we appreciate that and we'll move forward on that project as well. Uh, so that'll be a over a thousand new parking spaces associated with the parking garage This project is just over four hundred spaces, some of which we already had in place, but it was this is much more efficient. and will and will really smooth the progress for us and hit those peak times of day that we're just parking everywhere right now, including on the aircraft apron at our peak times of year, which I'm sure others and even FAA is not appreciative of Yeah. Oh, I'm sure You got to remember, I've lived up here in Portland for a long time, flown in and out of the jetport for years And there was a time only really a few years ago when you were going to go to the fly out of the jetport, youd just drive down and you'd find a spot and you'd park. And you know, it was no big deal. You'd always find a spot. You never had to think about it. But now when you're going, and I have friends that are in and out all the time and they're calling me and say, what am I going do about parking? You have to look at the airport The jetport has a wonderful website that shows what lots are open, what lots are closed, where to go, what to do. and you've got a plan on it now. And there may be times when you're not going to find a spot. And there's a remote lot where you have to take a shuttle that's across the highway. I think it's called the pink lot. I don't know why it's pink. other than people get so frustrated. they turn red when they find out they have to park there But it actually it works pretty well. In fact, a friend of mine just came from there and said that the driver that she had was incredible explaining what was happening, how it was going to improve, and not necessarily apologizing for what was there, but explaining where to pick up the bus on the way out and how There's going to be new parking on site soon. She was thrilled with that. And at the end of the day, I mean, you nailed it. We have to have an inter an interim plan because this has taken so long. So we've parked on the North apron. we've parked on the cargo apron The challenge is it just takes more time for passengers to to do that. you know, that adds more to their logistics. And we all know when you come to the airport peopleeople are already You know, they're anxious, especially if they're on an early morning flight and that anxiety is high and they it is Portland. They cut it just in time, right? So so to do an extra fifteen minute jaunt out to as you noted, Mica, the pink lot is can be frustrating And you know, when again back when I was first flying in An of thejetport, you had nonstop flights that went pretty much, I think you had or There was ORD, there was Washington, there was New York. there was Atlanta That was about it. I Florida finally came in and now that we have what, close to thirty non stop flights flying in and out of the jetport to thirty different cities. It's unbelievable And again, that's a larger story. I think that that we're just big enough and many small hub airports in the system, just big enough to really take advantage of upgaging. And what I mean by that is obviously the smaller aircraft are kind of going the way of the Doto bird But but the the from one hundred and twenty seats all the way up to one hundred and sixty seats, there's just a whole renaaissance in that. if you can just, you know Range with the seven hundred thirty six seven max, the seven hundred thirty seven, the A three hundred twenty, A three hundred twenty one, the A two hundred twenty, just really beautiful planes that have long range. And u And for us, that has u you know, even to Chicago this year, they were able to upgage so we didn't lose as much capacity as we thought we were from those restrictions because the restrictions are based on operations. So if you could upgage and reduce operations, you can maintain a lot of your capacity. So Portland has really been been blessed. And where I'm going is so many more destinations, right? We couldn't A decade and a half ago, there wouldn't be Portland SFO or LAX h it's just the range wasn't there Now with these narrow body aircraft that have such extended range We's it's unbelievable what we can do from small markets and with international in the future as well. International, are we getting a customs office We're working on it, Micah we're working on it. I know this has been long in tooth. You've been hearing about it for a long time We actually are even looking for some Congressionally directed spending. It's it sounds like I'm asking for and they are earmarks. The CDS is an earmark But it's all within the airport impmprovement prorogram and the aviation Tust fund. So it's not new allocated tax money. It's coming out of the ticket tax and the fuel tax on aircraft and how that gets allocated back to airports through the are airport improvement program. So I'm hoping to have through a congressionally directed spending opportunity to build that FAS Federal Inspection Services customs facility You know, I want to ask you this, Paul, because you know, I've attended some of theet Jetport noise advisory commommittee meetings and you have the patience of Job. All I want to do is take these people and you, shake them by the shoulders and say, you bought a house under a flight path. You bought a house near the airport, you know. And and you went you go through this with the noise addvisory commommittee, you've gone through this with the parking How do you work with the public with such al an effective manner to work them onto your side So u The holy grail that we just got approved is a new R andP approach. So to your point, these things take a huge amount of time. o But we have one advantage. We're right next to the ocean So Mike, I agree with you, people who live next door, But at the end of the day, to the extent and as Max said, that we can make changes that will help everybody and the airport Let's try to do so and we were it's taken forever And It's been really challenging, but one of the outcomes we talked earlier about next gen is that we do have R andP procedures now, required navigation performance. And it's been a long time in the making But we just got a new approach procedure that was published in April. Unfortunately, it wasn't available for flight until last week because of just some training and other issues Both FA. u or a local ATC, but now it will be available. And the idea is that we can make Um, makeake progress on that front. but no, Mica, it doesn't fix all problems to your point. And yes, we do have homes that are bought and sold and it is always interesting But uh that somebody will buy a house and then they come to a Noise advisory committee meeting and say, you're devaluing our property. And I have to say to them point blank, that was built into your purchase price Yeah because that's the basis for the the real estate market is you lived you know your home was next to an airport Paul, we talked about RNP, I think in some depth, but it's been many, many years Maybe you could say a little bit about that to bring some of our listeners up to speed on just what that involves and what was the process that you had to go through in order to get this created So so performance based navigation, it's PBN an RMP or required navigation performance is the there's there's a couple there's tighter, you know, dot one or there's dot three and that dot one or dot three stands for three tenths of a mile or tenth of a mile accuracy and maybe Rob or David can can jump in even more with their experience to But we had to really jump through hoops. We had to actually hire There's only a couple companies in the country that can do this. Hughes and flight tech engineering, flight tech engineering worked with us. We actually developed this procedure ourself. The FA didn't have the capacity to get it done in any reasonable amount of time So we were able to hire flight tech engineering. they developed the procedure. And what it is is an RMP can actually It's not a point to point. It can do curved you know, flight segments between points And what we did is we have this Uh curved path that follows or overlays over a procedure that's been around for decades. It's our Harbor visual approach And actually that was written back decades ago is the as the u in the Wall Street Journal as the favorite approach for pilots to fly because it came in over the scenic main coasts and over Portland headlight and stayed overwater They couldn't do a u You know, and a procedure that was that was GPS based and could be done by the flight management system. It was fully just a pilot looking at ground references and so it wasn't available at night And that's when you have your biggest noise complaints So the R andP is available daytime and nighttime and has really impressive minimums as well. So so it's nearly to the level of the minimums of the of an instrument landing, which is a straight in runway heading. So really impressive. And there was a time when not all aircraft could fly that RNP. And I think we still have a few. Most of the RJs don't have the equipment for it, but everything else does at this point, doesn't it For the most part, CRJs will never be equipped. to to fly this procedure But the embryers and and all of your your all of your airbus, you know, boeing will be, you know, but it still requires a cre being trained and proper equipage is right for that aircraft. But you were absolutely correct. the vast majority of aircraft flying our market forget about the CRJs for a minute because they will not be but can fly in RMP And have all the airlines been happy to work with you in terms of training their pilots to fly it? I know at one time there was some difficulty with one of them. I don't want to mention any names but is that pretty much improved or We'll know soon. I mean, the challenge has been that now this is just recently available. So now we are reaching out to our airline partners The benefit to this procedure is it can actually save them time and distance So, so we do think most will sign on to it because anything to save time and fuel and money is a benefit. So not only will it be good for the neighbors in this case, but it will also be a quicker approach for our airline partners. So we do think they will adopt it their as their flight crews get online and train. I don't think there will be reticence to adopting this Rob, do you know how this works in the cockpit? What does the pilot do to follow one of these? You just punch a button and say do, you know, follow that thing Basically, ye know, I mean, because when the flight management system uses the flight plan that was filed and then inut inputed to the into the system And as you approach the airport you know, the controller might say, Hey, you're going to do the R andP twenty nine approach tonight. They go, Okaykay and they selected on the on the FMS and when at the appropriate time they hit go and They just sit back and say, wow, isn't this fantastic? mean And the airplane does most of the work. But of course, what's really nice I mean, we have one here at Chicago executive and The reason it works so well is that we have O'Hare just south of us. And so you know, with the North South runway at executive having any kind of an instrument approach from the south virtually impossible. You'd have to go across the final for six runways at O'Hare But they managed to put in an R andP approach that starts northeast of the airport and does a big curving arc approach around the east side and southeast side of the airport and lets them land on that that north runway and it's increased the flexibility quite a bit, but now I was going to ask you, Paul, do you have a lot of business jet space there We don't have a lot based, but we do get a lot in the summer So we have a few based But then we just have a huge GA population, as you would expect, as people come in to Maine. And we also have surprisingly enough, a huge summer camp business. So so everything when there's parents weekend, it's hard, you know, the aprons are full. parents weekend for the summer camps in Maine And there are no flight schools there either, are there? So now there are, they're actually just restarted. There are now there's now a brand new flight school on the North apron. Yes. Oh, Okay at Northeast Air And as I mentioned, I drive by the road that I take puts me by the MacJets FBO, which is one of the two FBO's on site. and the Tarmac was just absolutely full of airplanes today. the beautiful weather and a lot of jets coming through now And then you'll always get the military pilot that just wants to come up for a lobster and they'll they'll do they'll get us on their list too. and often be at Macjetsets But I was also going to mention on the RMP, when I look at the flight tracks, the ADSB flight tracks You can zoom in on these R andP approaches and it's just amazing. They're right on top of each other. It's so perfect unlike the Harbor Visual approach where Every pilot has its own has their own kind of There's just huge discrepancies by design because it is a visual approach uh So this really will once it's active and once we see the flights, it will make a big difference, I believe helping with our noise. So that's so Micah sometimes you get successes. I mean, they're small wins and they take decades to accomplish But but this is one of those. And that's what keeps you going, right? on all the on all the other days when you you say that you're you're frustrated and you're, you know, it's everybody just being upset Every once in a while you get a it's once in a blue moon or once in like two decades, you get a win like this to get an RMP developed that everybody likes and it's over water It's great. And know I'm just going to let our listeners in in a secret that if you are flying into Portland And you're going to come in on that harbor visual through that new RNP. sit in the left side of the plane. You get a lighthouse tour from two lights to the Portland headlight to bug light that that would take you a whole afternoon to do on your own. It's just gorgeous Fantastic Paul, anything else? happenaing at the jetport or looking into the future? I think we've covered a number of different number of different projects and things going on Yeah, I think we've covered we've covered most. I mean, we even added in the little customs facility in FIS in congressionally directed spending. So so no, it's great. One thing that's coming up, we have been very impressed with Breeze in their starts. So they they have, you know, a couple new starts coming up right up this weekend., you know, we yet more service which is amazing to me that to hit Akron Canon and Cincinnati, new service starting july second and third. So again, smallmall hub airports It is amazing the level of connectivity we can have these days with upgaaging and the current fleet of aircraft are that are servicing the markets. It's really impressive Yeah, I've been meaning to to try a breeze flight What's amazing on Breeze is that I think they've really it's Dave Neilman again, for those that are paying attention to these things who founded Jet Blue and Back to Moruris Air. I mean just in Azul. uh in South America. Interesting, you know, we look back this the bankruptcy of spirit, right But Dave Newman the way Breeze is is another one. it's actually value but has multi class cabin A two hundred twenty fleet So u Pre prettyt impressive, you know, just and it's been very successful for our market. Yeah, great good Bradberry, thanks so much. Thank you All right, what's up with the Geeks Let's see, David, we can start with you I noticed in our notes that Our next episode is our nine hundredth. Yes So I decided I was like Okay Let's do some Googling and see what's going on. And Ironically, the average podcast lasts a whopping thirty episodes before a hot age So according to Google out of the roughly four point five million podcasts worldwide Only about two percent of those make the two hundred fifteth episode just a fraction of a percent reached nine hundred or more So how's that for amazing? that we are Beyond what the average podcast Yeah, we've got I mean nine hundred sounds like It's not just a lotck. I mean, it's Holy smokes nine hundred. It's kind of ridiculous. I mean, it's almost like somebody's No, no, that's a mistake. It can't be nine hundred. But it is. That's eighteen years of podcasting Well, and the other thing about it is what's interesting is People with more numbers than us do more podcasts than us weekly. Right. Yeah.. So there are people like Joe Rogan who do five podcasts a week Of course, they're going to have more than nine hundred episodes But for what we do, nine hundred episodes is kind of an amazing total It is Yeah, in fact, speaking of that, Max, can we get a raise Sure, you could we will double your salary, Rob, how's that You're on, baby. No, but but There's one other thing I figured out Of that nine hundred episodes One of us has only missed seven and it's an entirety. How don't you figure out I counted the amount of episodes that you're not on that we did Yeah it's seven You've missed seven. So we have done seven episodes without you in the shell Wow And we're gonna dock your pay. For sluffing off. That's how I'm gonna fund your salary doubling. I'll give you my. Oh, yeah, that's right. Wow. you know, next week will We are beyond having major celebrations for anniversaries I think we should at least take a few minutes next week to pat ourselves on the back. Yeah. and especially pat yourself on the back, Max. Yeah. And we're going Oh, thank you. And we're going to have a couple of Other people join us, other folks that are associated with this podcast. and we have a A great guest scheduled for next week also Yeah, I saw that. Yeah, pretty good. All right. And let's see, Rob, Rob, what's new with you? Stories about flying Work life balance. We always talk about that But for pilots, it's kind of a joke. Well It's kind of an inside joke, but I u someomebody got me started thinking about it and I I have to admit it was a cadet at our CAP squadron And he was really ranting and raving about about work life balance and how lousy it was to be a pilot. and I said, Give me a break. I've done this all my And you know, by the time I finished the episode, I kind of went well You know? Maybe the guysys got something because young people don't think about work the same way that we guys did. Yeah. It's just Better worse just different So Hopefully I hit a few high points and Maybe people will give it a liston That's on stories about flying term What episode is that, Rob?re you do you number your episodes out at all? nine hundred or nineteen Yeah, it's's it was definitely definitely nine. Okay. So I mean, I'm almost there with airplane geeks. right behind you, baby. I mean, well the other the other amazing fact is I recorded episode four hundred forty. of the UA news UAV News Talk episode today with Max Drescott. I don't know where those four hundred and forty episodes. I know. Well, we started that David in twenty thirteen So that's been around for quite a Quite a while. thirteen years. I just counted him up and this was Rob's ninth episode Oh on stories about flying. Stories about flying. Yeah. okay All right So Michael, what do you head for us? Well, toward the middle of last week sometime, I was driving down Jetport Plaza Road, which is perpendicular to runway one one twenty nine here at the Jetport. And I came up over the rise and I caught a P eight Poseidon just taking off from a touch and go And I had never seen one flying before. I saw them on a static display, but not flying. And it just took me by surprise. and it was just beautiful to see. This one was up here from I was tracing it down from Patuxet River. It had been circling and practicing touch and Ges for a while. and unfortunately, I caught it at the very end of its run and wasn't able to watch anymore of it But then today I'm coming back on that road and I get to the stop sign. And looking at the Mac jet slot And there's this gorgeous C one thirty Hercules and it was parked on the Mac Jets's tarmac. And so I just went over there and I grabbed a picture of it. and it was a flying Viking that was sitting there from the ninety six Airlift squadron. that's part of the nine hundred thirty fourth Airlift wing from Minneapolis Staint Paul Joint Air Reserve Station in Minnesota. So I grabbed a picture of that, put it in the show notes I'd never seen a flying Viking before. we'll put that yeah, we'll put that in the show notes. and I also forgot to mention earlier that when we were talking with Paul that he did send some some graphics relating to RNP and and some other things and so we'll have that additional information in the show notes as well. be sure to check that out ourur friend Hello attended the Airon Space Museum Media preview of the opening of the five galleries. This is the fiftieth anniversary of the Air and Space Museum And I think we've talked about how they've opened this is in the downtown Air and Space Museum as opposed to the h the facility at byou Hazi Center. Yeah, the Uver Hazi center And so David, does does this complete complete the u the redo of all the galleries or there's there's still more to come There's plenty more to go. Okay july third, nineteen seventy six, that museum opened And they never estimated the amount of people that would go through that museum. In fifty years, it beating not just from sheer volume of people coming through it. It's the most busy museum, it's the busiest museum on the mall So they've got a long term plan. I mean, this is a major upgrade But it's still there's still quite a few men quite a few halls that need to be re redone Okay So Hello made some recordings for us and we're going two. This episode, I think one the next episode And so first, we have the opening remarks 'll captured captured those. It's a little echoy, but you know, it's opening remarks in a big room. And this was Christopher Brown gave the The opening. Chris Brown. he's the John and Adrianne Mars director of the Smithsonia's National Air and Space Museum And Chris joined the museum as deputy director in twenty seventeen He served as acting director from twenty twenty one to twenty twenty two when he was named director And so let's listen to Hells capture. of the opening remarks. Great to be with you. I'm Chris Brown, and I have the privilege of serving as Johan and Adriam Mars director of the Smithsonian International Air and Space Museum. Welcome back to the Space Park. This has been one of the most popular spaces in a museum since first opening five decades ago And it's great to see once again, visitor access to these iconic artifacts of space fifty years ago this week, or pardon me, fifty years ago next week. This building open to the public. And by the end of the first year, we had welcomed over five million visitors far exceeding even our most ambitious expectations In the years since, we have greeted over three hundred fifty million people from around the world As this is a media event, you might be interested to hear some of the things journalists had to say about our museum. in its first days The only thing missing is a feather from thisress's wings. Another road Washington and the Smithsonian have finally been to the twentieth century The exhibits defy description They also said that the exhibits feature Every audio visual and electromagnetic Dvice known to man which is interesting to think about as I look around at our incredibly Tech savvy exhibits fifty years later I bring up these last two quotes because just as the opening of this museum may have brought the Smithsonian into the twentieth century It became clear a decade ago that significant work was needed to bring this museum intont the twenty first cury And so began a massive renovation effort Knowing we needed to empty the museum to update the building's systems and replace the exterior stone planning We embrace the opportunity too reimagine our galleries and exhibitions and displays and create a museum belongs in the twenty first century We also took the challenge of adding new stories to the old favorites we've been telling since the village opened I like to think of it as widening the curtain allowing more and more aspects of aviation and space history to join the stage and have their history and accomplishments revealed to the public in news in authentic ways The renovation began in earnest in twenty eighteen and we are now in the final steps to the fincheline with five new exhibitions opening next week and the final two opening this fall. This project would not have been possible without the support of our generous donors and the American public. So it is fitting inappropriate that I extend my sincere thanks to all who have helped us make their reimaginine National Aeros Space Museum, the national treasy that it is The exhibitions we are opening next week perfectly encapsulate our effort to provide something for everyone here in aerospace. Aviation fans and history buffs will enjoy exploring our impressive World War II collection in the JI Sizzack World War twoI in the Air Gallery on the second level. If you love space history, you'll love RTX living in the space age, this very place being in the moment Those who are more science m minded neede to look no further than the US National Science Foundation discovering our universe here on Fort F Lvel Families will love having a hands on look at the forces of flight in the return of our interactive text drbe, how things fly exhibition mind. And one of our best kept secrets is the museum's collection of over eight thousand works Aviation and space relatedations You can see a sampling of that collection along with a special Rosenberg exhibit In the New Flight and Arts Center, On the subject. There's a lot to see, so it's time to let you explore these new exhibitions for yourself Before I let you go, a few logistices The galleries in this section of the building will be open for you to explore until eleven AM We have curators and other museum staff available for interviews and to answer general questions a curor, our subject matter mattern experts will be stationed in each of the galleries. wearing name tag so please talk to our communication staff at the check in desk We're roving around the building to set up interom And When you're done exploring, please exit the way you came in here on the first floor. We'll be opening the rest of the building at ten as scheduled to the public and this place will remain off limist public until are unveiling a bunch of ars Thank you again for joining us for today's bview, and I hope you enjoyed these exhibitions Have a great rest of you day R right And next we have a conversation that Hillel had with Carlyn Russo She's the curator of the art and Trophy collections and the temporary curator of the poster collection in her capacity as a museum specialist She's she's got a lot of experience at the museum, overver thirty years experience She's authored four books the of the airport tower plain view, abstractions of flight Third one is artifacts of flight And the fourth is and women and flight, portraits of contemporary women pilots. And so let's listen to the conversation that hello had Carolyn I'm here with Caron Russo, the curator of the art exhibit that's new to the museum and I'll get her to tell us what it's actually called and what's going on there. Yeah, so actually we are in the new flight in the Art Center the National Air and Space Museum. So where we've always had an art gallery since nineteen seventy six, when we opened fifty years ago, we have just recently renovated our museum and this is the new Flight in the Arts center that's opening And within this space, we actually have two new exhibits. So one is called the Art of Air and Space interterpretations of flight, and this is based on Our art collection, which comprises of about eight thousand works of art spanning about two hundred years. And the second exhibit is on Robert Rauschenberg, the Ascent of Rauschenberg reinventing the Art of flight. Fascinating. So There's always been an exhibit art exhibit in the museum. Wasn't it on the ground floor of the basement or was it always up here? We've always used this gallery and then we've also used the west E on the first floor for different exhibits. So what's changed between the original gallery and this gallery and why the change and what was the impetus to have art and otherwise science, I know, steam versus STEM science technology, engineering, art and math, but It has to be pretty significant in terms of relevance to the topic to include art as part of the science and the technology. Yeah, so let me answer your first question first. So in terms of the changes, there have been a lot of architectural changes in the gallery prior to our renovation. So for instance, the stairs in the middle of the gallery were pushed back, giving us more space. We have a new meeszine level that we were able to retrieve for the specific art exhibitions But why would we have an art collection? I'm always dumbfounded when I hear that question, and that's because I come from an art background So in our museum, we have all of these artifacts. and they show us how things fly, They shows the technology in history. Art shows us the human dimension of flight. It shows us The cultural aspects of flight, the emotions, why we fly how we feel when we fly. So through the eyes of artists, we can get many different perspectives on the history of flight Yeah, and one can easily argue and firely win the argument that flight started in art Long before it got to anywhere close to reality. So flight started in the imagination Right? We can even go back to, you know, even you know, further back than Leonardo da Vinci, but you know, for Leonardo da Vinci, that will all happen through his, you know, drrawings. and then of course, the Wright brothers were inspired by Leonardo Da Vinci. and then Robert Rauschenberg American artists was inspired by both Leonardo da Vinci and the Wright brothers. So The second exhibit here shows us how Rauschenberg through his sixty year career had this underlying thread throughout all of his work that represented flight in many different ways. but the thing is you have to look for it even in modern times The first thing an engineer is going to do when they're thinking about something is pick up a pencil. and put it on paper Well, exactly. and we even have a section. So so again, I might be jumping back and forth between the Rauschenberg exhibit and then the exhibit on our own collection. So the Art of Air and Space, we even have a unit, so to speak, that we call a glimpse into the process. And this shows exactly how artists and engineers are working out their ideas. So for instance, engineers and designers, they make many modifications before they get to their final airplane design. And then what we show in our glimpse, for instance, we have two murals on display as you walk into the lobby of our museum and we show some of the concept art before these murals are formed. We also have early sketches that Alma Thomas did before she put paint to her canvas. So again, Alma Thomas, she was inspired by space fllight you know through nature that she saw outside of her living room window, but she was also inspired byy television. And when you look at her abstractions you might say, oh, these these were done quickly, but The sketches show these were very planned abstractions We have engineers finance person and an artist among our children and the artist when I took her to the National Museum of the United States Air Force. was keenly interested in the evolution of design thinking and very much seeing how all this really started as art And so Now with eight thousand plus artifacts This part of the gallery is pretty small compared to the rest of the museum. Well, the gallery itself is seven thousand square feet. So we are actually the same size as all of the different galleries that fit airplanes. whichich is impressive. At some point you had to decide what goes in here. Yeah. So for the first show I wanted to show visitors the diverse types of work that we have in the collection. For instance, we have works by Norman Rockwell, to Annie Lieibovitz, to the photorealist, Georgie O'Keefe, Man Ray. So I wanted to show the expanse of our collection in, you know in one viewing, soort to speak. and it was very difficult to do. but I chose works that were Possibly unexpected And so By looking at abstract work and reading the interpretations on the walls, you might get a different take on flight, sort of to speak Do you plan on changing the exhibit every so often? Yes. So this exhibit will be on display for a year and then it will change over to bothoth works in our collection, and then we will also work with partners to bring in works on loan That's to be some amount of gratifying stress, but stress nonetheless to figure out what's it going to be next time and then kind of plan that out like a roadmap and say we're going to go from here to here to here to. Well I'm very project oriented and I have this, you know Aility to envision a project and for me, it's thrilling to you know see a project through. And I just want to mention with both of these exhibits, there are also book publications. So there is a book on the Rauschenberg exhibit for some Chance you don't get to here, you can buy it anywhere on Amazon. It's called The Ascent of Rauschenberg by Carolyn Russo And then also, for this other exhibit on the Art of Air and Space We have a new book coming out The Rauschelberg book is already out. It was out for his one hundredth year centennial. The new book comes out this fall, The Art of Air in Space And it incorporates all of the works that are on display here plus another two hundred or so. So and that is actually the first book on our art collection. So I do hope People will grab and like the exhibit. book is really showcases All the different movements of art, so we have, you know modern art realism Um Photorealism And so it's not just a book of Actually, it's not a book of just airplanes or rockets. It's really expansive. So There's a u argument to be made that all this stuff is viewable elsewhere most of it at least, if not all of it. What's your pitch for what they get besides the rest of the museum about coming to see this in person So first of all, it's not all viewable elsewhere on Art doesn't live out on the walls for years and years because it has to rest. And so that's a conservation aspect of it I encourage folks to get out here and see these Rauschenbergs, the Raussenberg works that are on display. S of them have never been displayed before and several of them are on loan. And it's the first time they'll be able to see his work on flight within the context of the National Ar and Space Museum in terms of we can relate specific works to, for instance, the Wite Flyer or to the Spirit of Staint Louis or the Apollo eleven Command module. So this is a very special exhibit to have during our two hundred fiftieth year. It's also our fiftieth year of the museum's opening and it's one hundred centnial Robert Rausenberg, and let's remember in nineteen seventy six, Robert Rauschenberg was selected as the bicentennial American artist and had a retrospective at the Smithsonian American Artist Museum in Washington, DC. So he really ties into this theme of our celebration and our theme of American innovation That history behind it is actually really, really interesting because when I was here when it opened fifty years ago, I would never have thought of that. Will Rauschenberg be here also for the same year and get switched out or is that longer or less Rauscheng The Rauschenberg show, the ascent of Rauschenberg will be here for one year only. So next, so it runs through july first to july first, twenty twenty six And the entire gallery will switch over. That's what I was going ye Yeah, Okaykay, so that's very useful. Is there anything you want listeners of a geek oriented podcast to know that they might not be thinking about? And I asked a bunch of questions from that perspective, but there's probably more that they should think about that they're not thinking about. Well, I don't know if I can say from a geek perspective But let's just say I think open your mind and look at the art, see how it inspires you, see how it stirs up feelings. I just want to give another quick example flight and space flight It's not only about transportation, but it changes our perspective. And for instance, George O'Keefe know, American modern artists, we have one work on display that shows how she painted from an aerial view after her experience from a commercial Can flight So just come, take it in, enjoy it. And I do think you will think differently about flight and all the different aspects of flight and the emotions that it stirs. Yeah, there's a saying among aviation enthusiasts that there's almost always an aviation angle almost any story and we kind of look for it and you're making the case for it. And that's exactly what I did with the work of Robert Rausch. Yeah. And so come and see that for yourself. Well, and it's also great to say, you know, George O'Keefe can say, Hey, she was inspired by aviation as well. So it's not limited to people that we only think about because of their aviation So thank you very much, Carooln. I appreciate your time. Thank you Thanks so Al for capturing those Hello's actually going to join us next week for our nine hundredth And we've also got an interview that he did with the u Art gallery curator, Mike Huslander So we'll look forward to that. And in the show notes, we'll put in the press release from the Air and Space Museum. This is National Air and Space Museum celebrates fifty years with opening of five new galleries. So that That link will be in the show notes On to a few shoutouts Nadia from Serus Aircraft wrote in And this is something I'd like to talk to Max Trescott about this. but Cirus has announced the opening of its Duluth talent center. they spent some money on this multiple million dollar investment And they're trying to create a hub for community engagement, but also recruiting and workforce development. The idea is they want to connect individuals with careers in aerospace And this talent center gives people that sort direct access to recruiting and tech training and career development resources all in one in one place Very interesting. As I said, I think maybe Max Drescott could tell us more about just, you know, what this what this is and how this is being handled by SirS, but there is a website, actuallyually it's a page off of their Sirus website. So if you go to serirus aircraft. com slash careers There's some more information. there U, and that's in Minnesota. Hermanown rightight on the edge of Lake Superior. It's very cold in the winter As long as it's warm inside, I think that'd be great. Let's see and Mica got any shout outs Well, yeah, we're only going to announce it again that the Great state of Maine Air S show is july eleventh and twelfth at the Brunswick Executive Airport, the former Brunswick Naval Air station. And so if you want to catch that, you need to start planning for it, that's for sure. But then the big event The one that I'm really looking forward to, even though it's really tiny, but it's the twenty ninth annual Surring farm, pancake brereakfast and fly in. that's Sunday july twelfth from eight in the morning till eleven thirty. Great pancakes, great blueberries, great maple syrup and terrific airplanes and super people And that's the good news about it. The bad news is that I found out my good friend and favorite Podcast producer Max Flights not gonna to be there I was really, really hoping to attend, but there's been a death in the family of a of a good good friend and the the service coincides with that. so not going to be able to. definitely going to try really hard next year because I think it is It is about the world's biggest little event, maybe I might put it that way. It' Yeah It's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun Okay, we want to thank Paul Bradbury, our guest this episode. He's the airport director theet at the Jetland boatport Portland Jetport. H which is their website Portlandjetport. org And Mike as I recall, it's called a jet port. Because if you say this Portland, then people confuse it with the Portland on the other side of the country And they still do every so often. you'll find somebody wandering around the The jet port wondering how they get, you know, into downtown Portland, meaning Oregon. So it happens every so often That's a disaster Portlandjetport. org buuy another airlinine ticket. That's right. That's how you do that Oh, you can find us at airplanegeeeks. com Show notes for this episode at airplane geeks dot com slash eight nine nine. That's the episode number Our email address is the geeks at airplane geeks d. com So let's see Rob Mark or how do people find you Oh, they find me on Let's see. Twitter Bue sky They find me at Oh NTSP News talkalk with Max T stories about flying C Jetwine. com Oh and here, yes, here U, yes, I forgot So on Twitter and Blue Sky, you're jet wine, right Jet one, Yes. Yes, of course. All right, good. And David Vanderhf How do we find you? How do we find the museum you can find if you go to helicoptermuseum. org, you can find me and the rest of the museum there And you can find me on Blue Sky. And Instagram, if you look up what just flew by photo U And of course you can find me with Max Trescott on that other ancient podcast UAV News talkalk Very good And how about you, Mica you can find me with Pasina Brian Coleman, who I think is going to be dropping by with us next week too. Yes. But you can usually find me there on journey is reward dot orgot and of course I'm on X Twitter and Blue skky as Mainfly. Terrific. And I' Max Flight. you can you can also find me on Blue Sky But I'm under airplane geeks If you look at max flight on Blue Sky. which I haven't done in a while. If there's no posts there, then that's definitely me. and I lost the password or I don't know, I can't get into it or something. So I fwy Oh, look for look for me on under airplane geeks. Okay, so please join us again next week For a big one, nine hundred as we talk aviation on the airplane Geeks podcast Bye everybody. Nighty night See you real soon And thanks for listening