The Eve of the Great Crusade

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And you know what that means Vacation Whether you've been planning it for months or you're ready to pack a bag and go on a whim, having a place you can rely on makes every trip feel that much easier That's where B Western comes in From scenic road trips to spontaneous adventures abroad You'll find welcoming stays wherever you land So you can focus on making memories, not managing the details This summer get one thousand bonus points and a chance to win two hundred fifty thousand bonus points. So wherever you're headed, make the stay part of the trip. and make it count with this limited time offer Life's a trip Make the most of it at bestwestern. com No additional purchase necessary for sweeps. See bonus points, terms and conditions, and sweeps rules for details. And visit bestwestern d. com for complete terms and conditions We're in southern England the early days of June nineteen forty four General Dwight D. Eisenhower Supreme Commander of the Alline Expeditionary Force waits anxiously in his office for the latest meteorological report the skies today. are low and gray It's been stormy But this is England where the weather can change by the hour Nearby in Portsmouth and all along England's southern coast Hundreds of thousands of Allied troops stand ready to cross the English Channel into France ships crowd the harbourors Paratroopers check their gear in silence air crews have memorized their routes and targets When the invasion comes, these forces will face heavily fortified beaches and coastal defenses Hitler has spent years preparing for this moment constructing the Atlantic Wall in anticipation of the inevitable Allied assault And above it all. It's Eisenhower. With the success of the operation resting squarely on his shoulders. He has had to manage strong willed generals hold together a fragile international alliance and withstand pressure from political brass on both sides of the Atlantic. But the greatest burden of all is knowing that should this invasion fail The war would drag on for years us more lives lost I'm Don Weildman, and this is American History Hip Thanks for listening Our guest today is John C. McManis, prorofessor of Military History at the Missouri University of Science and Technology, Go Minors. He is also the host of the excellent podcasts Someone Talked and World War two Live, which I really recommend But without further ado, let's talk about the planning of D Day Hello Jon thanks for joining American History. I really appreciate your time. Hey, Dhn, thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. I want to understand first of all, what was going through the Allied planners' heads pre invasion. What was the state of the war in Europe mid nineteen forty four. Yeah. so mid nineteen forty four, obviously the war is not going well for Germany at all. They've been basically kicked out of the Soviet Union on the Eastern frront. And I think it's important to remember that the Red Army has done, you know, really the bulk of the demolition of the German arrmed forces at that point. But at the same time, you know,'ve they've absorbed massive losses and it's a team effort East and west is one of the reasons why Germany is hard pressed at this point. We've had the the Mediterranean campaigns in which the Allies have invaded Sicily and then Italy, North Africa before that And so the idea is now the Western Allies are going to get a better foothold on the continent and liberate France and of course, the rest of Western Europe. So planning for this is goingone on for years by this point. But I guess the way we would put it nowadays is by the spring of nineteen forty four, it's all gotten real You know, you've had this major buildup in England and enormous resources now devoted to this idea of carrying out what they felt was the most important amphibious invasion really in human history It is so important to understand what the Soviet Union went through in those years and this incredible turnaround that that was going on. And for all those reasons, the Allies heavily doubted You know, that there was going to be any leverage from that side at all, you know, given how how it had gone in forty one to forty two. Yeah. And yet, you know, the Soviets who had of course been so hard pressed in forty and forty two were basically screaming for a what they called a second front for the for the Western Allies. and the way the Soviets thought of that was an invasion of France, you know, a bonaf fide cross channel invasion of France not the Mediterranean campaigns that we had had, which were, you know on a much smaller scale than what we're eventually going to have in Western Europe. So to them, they thought, okay, well Absolutely. You need to be doing your part But of course, I think the other important thing to realize is that the Allies had absorbed had a point of major resources to an aerial campaign, which is also one of the things that has led to Germany's decline at that stage, this enormous bombing of Germany and many parts of occupied Europe that's absorbed enormous resources and helped pave the way for this amphibious invasion. Now that wasn't necessarily the intention for the air commanders. They wanted to win the war on their own, honestly, especially the Americans who wanted their own independent air Force But as it turns out, what really happens too is that the Luftwaffe, the German Air Force, gets ground down over time The Allies begin to gain control of the air and that obviously is imperative for any vabious invasion that you need to control the air because obviously that helps you control the sea. And that's where the Allies are by june nineteen forty four. For all of our incursions into Sicily and then Italy, as you mentioned, Nazis Germany can still put up a fight. They were deeply entrenched all those years, those good German engineers, you know, building those fortifications and such, especially along the Atlantic. This is no pushover situation at this point. Absolutely. I mean, that's the thing Germany was still really potent and I've argued many times that Germany could still get you know, something positive out of this war as of the spring in nineteen forty four. Meaning if the Allies completely fail in their invasion of Europe, it kind of changes the dynamic in relation to how the Soviets are going to look at the war and the amount of resources the Germans could you know send over to the Eastern front And it's possible Hitler is able to salvage the better part of his empire at that stage because he's dealing with a really kind of diminished Western Allied coalition And so of course, the Germans understand this too, that there's a lot on the line. And as of the early months of nineteen forty four, they're going to get very serious about fortifying what they'll call the German propaganda calls it the Atlantic Wall. It's basically a series of fortifications spanning from the larger southwest coast of France all the way to portions of Denmark and everywhere in between, and which of course, the key parts obviously are the northwest coast of France, like Calais and Normandy and those areas that are the most likely places to invade And so the Germans, you know, prior to that had been, you know spending most of their capital on the Eastern Front and also to deal with the Allies in Italy and North Africa Now they're really beginning to amp up those fortifications, the famous concrete pillbx and bunkers that we associate with the Normally Easion of D day, but also beginning to send better quality formations west too and mobilize even more people. So yeah, the German armed forces were a really dangerous beast as of the spring in nineteen forty four. Just as the success of the Russians tips the balance towards the West, so did the failure of the Battle of Britain for Germany create this whole situation. I mean, that's what they were trying to avoid by taking over England. This very situation is what they have dreaded but knew was coming It was just a question of when and exactly where Why was the US so committed to this cross channel invasion of Europe? And it goes back a year earlier, right? We've been eager to do this for a while. We have. I mean, actually even since nineteen forty two, quite optimistically, over optimistically, the Americans felt We could launch an invasion of France, even though we really didn't control the sea, we didn't control the air. We didn't have the landingcraft, we didn't have the trained troops, you know It would have been very difficult to do that. evenven in forty three, We're not quite there yet. The Americans are thinking in terms of getting to the main resistance nest in Germany and destroying it. And they felt that the way to do that was straight through Western Europe and on into the industrial ruer in Germany and on to Berlin. That the Mediterranean was kind of the margins, you know, a peripheral strategy. and they also were very suspicious of British intentions there because of obviously British colonial involvement in North Africa and other parts of the Middle East and the Mediterranean. And they didn't necessarily like the idea of fighting in those places for understandable reasons. The other thing too, like from a hardcore military standpoint American senior officers, this generation of American officers had really been trained Like in their their strategic thinking to get immediately to the nexus of enemy resistance. L in other words, you go straight to the line of strength and you destroy it right there. Not necessarily like frontal attacks. I'm not saying that, but you go to whatever is going to collapse enemy resistance the quickest possible way. And that means for them an invasion of France and the destruction of German armed forces in that part of Europe How does that differ from other strategy? I mean, what would be the other strategy than that? A kind of a flanking and peripheral strategy, almost like what the British were doing to kind of gnaod the margins and eventually use air power in a way to collapse Germany, to have a kind of strategic war of maneuver to sort of spread out German resources and resistance at various places that you could invade in the Mediterranean and elsewhere. They felt that the best way to collapse Germany was to destroy its armed forces and that this is the best way to do it. And also so it's kind of heark comens back to the Civil War almost where the northern side kind of feels that Lee's army in Northern Virginia is kind of the nexus of Confederate resistance and it's secessionism and not necessarily Richmond per se. And I think in a World War II comparison, it is certainly the German industry and industrial capability, which is mainly in Western Germany and the industrial rur And obviously the German armed forces then become kind of the target for the destruction of Hitlerism. Yeah. Well, it's a complicated scenario here because we also have to make a choice between our fight in Europe versus our fight in the Pacific. and we had chosen a Germany first strategy in which we would end the war in Europe first being the more immediate danger than the Japanese before we turned our intention to the Pacific. It's all about balance, isn't it? Just trying to work out this particular situation, and it's all going to land on one man's shoulders as we'll figure out. Yeah. so I mean, I think that's a great point, Don, because the United States is fighting a global war like no other country in World War two. Now certainly Britain, Canada, Australia Yes, but but the United States is fighting at a scale. that no one else could even approach. And so you've got major operations that are going on in the Pacific almost concurrently with the Norman invasions, for instance, the invasion of SyPan that happens nine days later in the Marianas campaign, which is an enormous campaign that for most countries, that would absorb all their attention And oh by the way, another thing that's happening in relation to what's going on to Europe. And of course, you know, yes, we've chosen the Europe or Germany first strategy, and that is the majority opinion But they're still the Asia firsters, Douglas MacArthur and his advocates are saying you know, we need to be thinking about the Pacific and we need to, you know, our future is in Asia and Japan is the country that attacked us. you know, there's all that And so all that has been kind of sorted out by nineteen forty four in favor, of course of earmarking enormous amounts of troops and material and weaponry and shipping aircraft to the Stormy invasion. There's no question then among the alliance with the American preponderance in this whole thing that it must be an American commander. and that obviously as you've alluded to, it's going to be Dwight Eisenhower who had commanded the Mediterranean. It's such an incredible that we don't talk about that this enormous global war has nothing. We're not fighting this on our own turf at all And that's an extraordinary factor, that's sort of a separate conversation. but It's a gigantic global effort that we have to ship everything men and supplies and everything from our homeland to these places to fight this war. And we do that by choice, of course But it builds such an infrastructure to the American military that echoes forth to this day. Why were the Americans and British so divided over this invasion? Well, because the British had thought in terms of, you know, if you had this massive land campaign in Europe, it's a redo of World War O in their minds. And of course, that had really left a mark on the UK Britain suffers more casualties than the first day or so of the Sm campaign in nineteen sixteen that it had in most of its previous wars. Britain was generally a seafaring power. fighting expeditionary land warfare, the exception being, you know, when they fight Napoleon in the early nineteenth century. But even that really doesn't compare to what comes a hundred years later during World War one. So you'd had a demographic catastrophe in Britain And Winston Churchill, who of course, had seen that right up front, you know, during Worar One, had no wish to repeat it. And so he's thinking in terms of We've got successful operations in North Africa. whyy don't we enter Europe in an easier way through Italy? and maybe that'll be a kind of back dooor way to do something of the same kind of thing. And you know, as it turns out That's not quite a dead end, but not what he had hoped And in the end, it has to come down to this Norman evasion. So So that's the sort of difference between the British and the Americans. And also as I mentioned earlier, you know, the Americans kind of thinking along this linear way, this is the straight line to victory and there's no way around it. And the Soviets, of course, agreed with them too To them, a second front meant a real invasion of France You mentioned the preservation of empire as being a motive behind their planning. Were they ever open about that or was that just an American suspicion U the British have to kind of be opaque about that because they know the Americans are really leerary of their imperial outlook and preservation minded. because of course, Churchill, for all of his views of democracy and humanity, he's a frontline imperialist. I mean, he is wanting to preserve the British Empire everywhere it exists And so there is a level of kind of skepticism and suspicion there. But I would argue really more in Asia than in the European warar because it's in places like India and Burma, China, of course many British controlled colonies throughout the Pacific that the Americans are quite suspicious of British motives there And that's where you see a real convergence in what they all want to do in relation to China, and so on and so forth. In this case It's the Mediterranean and the Middle East and the North Africa. The Americans are very leerary of losing our guys for the betterment of the British Empire long term. because there was a sense too in World War I that we had fought preserve the British Empire. that had gotten involved in the war. And what had happened is it had kind of solidified and expanded the British Empire. and of course Most Americans know, you know that's where we originated trying to get away from the British Empire, fighting a war, you know? So there was a natural, I think, reluctance there to get involved that way. And so there was no way you could ever argue if we're invading France that has a thing to do with the expansion of the British Empire, of course. in a way, it's helping salvage the empire of one of our allies France. So that's the only imperial side of it, certainly not for Britain. But eventually the calls for a strike across the channel become irresistible and the game of chess focuses on the coast of France. High sticks sparan The Alllies agree that this is going to bring their plan of action to bear. And after the short break, we'll come back to talk about how that goes This episode is brought to you by Best Western Hotels and Resorts Summer is upon us. And you know what that means Vacation Whether you've been planning it for months or you're ready to pack a bag and go on a whim Having a place you can rely on makes every trip feel that much easier. That's where Best Western comes in. From scenic road trips to spontaneous adventures abroad, you'll find welcoming stays wherever you land. So you can focus on making memories, not managing the details This summer get one thousand bonus points and a chance to win two hundred fifty thousand bonus points So wherever you're headed, make the stay part of the trip and make it count with this limited time offer. Life's a trip Make the most of it at bestwestern. com No additional purchase necessary for sweeps. See bonus points, terms and conditions, and swweeps rules for details. and visit bestwestern d. com for complete terms and conditions. Ever wondered what it feels like to be a gladiator, facing a roaring crowd and potential death in the Coliseseum p? Find out on the Ancient podcast from History Hit. Twice a week Join me, Tristan Hughes, as I hear exciting new research about people living thousands of years ago from the Babylonians to the Celts, to the Romans, and visit the ancient sites which reveal who and just how amazing our distant ancestors were That's the ancients from History Hit hundred and fifty years ago. They were hunting us down to kill us and now They're hunting down immigrants to deport them This is First America, the true story of how the United States came to be and how we got to this present moment Listen to First America wherever you get your podcast. Welcome back. We're speaking with John McMadus of the Missouri University of Science and Technology about D day. eighty two years ago this month. John, the Allies needed to appoint an overall leader essentially to create this invasion. Enter Dwight D. Eisenhower. Why the man for the job? Yeah, this is the real interesting dynamic of the whole thing because of course there are other aspirants for the job. Allan Brooke, who is the Chief of the Imperial General staff a British officer, felt that Churchill had promised him command, of course, he really hadn't. George Marshall, of course is often thought it was a possibility. He's the Army chief of staff, remarkable guy. But Dwight Eisenhower, of course, had been chosen by Marshall. to command American and other Allied forces in the invasion of North Africa, Operation Torch, and of course, subsequently an invasion of Sicily and the invasion of Salerno. So he already had that experience Eisenhower did in the relationships he had forged. that was really his strength in the ability to forge relationships and create a kind of allied team because you know, it could have been possible that the British and the Americans, the Canadians, all these other folks would bicker and not be on the same team. Eisenower was very good at pointing people in the right direction. So he already had that advantage of those relationships among the senior leaders and coming from many different countries and the kind of cache of endorsement from Churchill, obviously Roosevelt, He just seemed to be the obvious guy because he already had that kind of muscle memory of commanding a multinational force And had done you had done very well. So Osenar was part diplomat, part strategist P humanitarian, you know, he's really a kind of a big picture thinker But I think but I would say more than anything, he's a relationship guy. That is his strength. He worked under or with Marshall and Douglas MacArthur. He'd been, you know channeling through this whole Miasma of the American military for a generation, really since World War one. also very familiar with tank tactics, just like Patton. He was deeply engaged in the sort of redevelopment of the American military after World War one and what we had learned from that whole expedition. But as you say, very very good was very skilled in organizational thinking, supply structure, all that stuff was his specialty December nineteen forty three. So about six months before The invasion, he is appointed Supreme Commander of the Allied Exeditionary Force What was he doing prior to that? I'm curious. Yeah, so prior to that, he had been commanding Allied forces in the Mediterranean and primarily, you know, the invasion of Salerno that had happened in septtember nineteen forty three and the subsequent operations. Before that, the invasion of Sicily in july nineteen forty three, Eisenower was overseeing all of that And you know, I think reasonably well So he is in way two, it's quite interesting the whole dynamic of this thing in november nineteen forty three Soviet, British and American leaders met at Tehran, ironically enough, in Iran for their first kind of joint conference in the war And one of the things that the Americans wanted to express to Stalin, Joseph Stalin, the Soviet leader, is we're serious about this cross channel invasion of France And Stalin presses them and saying, okay, well who's the commander? because he knew if there's a commander then it's kind of real And he's like, whoo is he? What is his name And it's at that point that you know, Roosevelt kind of has to commit a person in charge and he's like, well, it's going to be Eisenhower, you know? And so, you know, he even meets with Eisenhower subsequently and he basically says, Well, like, you're going to command oververlord. and that's generally the code word for the invasion So Eisenower finds us out, you know by deecember nineteen forty three. He goes home on a short leave. He hadn't seen his wife Mami for the better part of about a year and a half or so He had a son named John who was a first a senior at West Point was about to graduate in the spring of nineteen forty four. So that's his kind of last go. and then he's back in England then by January, nineteen forty four. Now the interesting thing about this is, of course, Eisenhower isn't creating plans from whole cloth All of this foundation had been set. by a British officer named Lieutenant General Fredrick Morgan who had been charged as of about mid nineteen forty three with planning an invasion of France. And it's really Morgan and his crew who kind of come up with these original concepts and more or less select Normandy rather than Calais So all of that is in place by the time Eisenhower comes to England to command this huge multinational force. But what he finds he's got to do is expand the concept Morgan and his people Well, we only have so much shipping. so maybe we can just you get three divisions ashore and just a few landing beaches Eisenhower and then his key land commander, Bernard Montgomery, who's also come from the Mediterranean with whom' arent there. They're going to expand that concept into what we know the five landing beaches and the larger divisional concept because they have more shipping. than than we have thought possible in mid forty three. And also too, they're thinking, we need to have a kind of larger kind of beachhead Be otherwise the German are going to be able to focus on these kind of two or three small beachheads and maybe annihilate them and turn. The more you spad it out, the tougher it's going to be for them. So it's going to be, you know, what's something of about a sixty mile front from the Kotenten Peninsula all the way to the Orange River and the eastern part of the British landing areas. It pops into my head the question that has come to mind since I was a child about this stuff. And my dad was in World War two, so these things were fascinating to me. How the heck would the Germans not know all this was coming when you were bringing all those resources to Southern England for all that time They must have known it up at all, right? I mean, they're right there. Well they absolutely know it's coming by those early months of nineteen forty four. What they don't know is when and where and that's the whole game is to keep deceiving them as to when and where. They absolutely know the Allies are very serious about this invasion and are very likely to launch it, which is why Hitler and their high command is starting to earmark more resources to France. You know, if we'd invaded the year before in ' forty three We would have found a fairly hollow, quote Atlantic wall. This is a larger pattern you see in the war D. I think it's really interesting, not just in Europe but in the Pacific. is that, you know, we're going to be about like there's usually like a six month lag in like the enemy building up his forces for wherever place we're going to land. And the reason we can't get the jump on them a lot of times is we just simply don't have the shipping and the people and the readiness and it's just the reality So here that that early month in nineteen forty four, now the Germans are feverishly beginning to earmark more troops especially to Northern France, to that coast there in Calais in Normandy. building up the fortifications, laying the obstacles, employing local people basically to build a lot of the stuff for them and also force labores too like in Normy, they're cutting down parts of a forest there called the Shirisi forest. The famous log obstacles, most of them come from there And so yes, they absolutely know what the Allies are planning What they can't sniff out is the when and where and the reason for that is that they are losing in the battle of the Atlantic, of course, that is a factor. They're losing on the intntel side You know, the Allies are going to launch what's called Operation Fortitude designed to deceive them with a dummy army, the first U. S. Army group and And also the possibility of a British invasion of Norway and you know, there's all this, but also in terms of like the Klokenager spying The Germans do have operatives in Britain But most of them have been turned, whether they know it or not And that's where the British are really come into this whole thing. Some of them been apprehended And also, this is another byproduct of the Germans losing the air war. because they can't launch quite as many ineffective recon flights to really get a sense of that that allied buildup. They know it's there, of course But they don't necessarily have a lot of good concrete information as we get closer to DD Eisenhower is dealing with strong personalities. This is a huge part of his job, of course. He has to deal with Winston Churchill of all people He insists on being given exclusive command of all strategic air Forces to facilitate this operation overlord Churchill granted this after Eisenhower threatens to resign. He strongly opposed Churchill's wish to sail with the fleet to the battlefield. I mean, Churchill wants to be there. whether it's for glory or for, you know, patriotism, who knows, But Eisenhower has to deal with this guy. Yeah. it's so interesting, such an interesting relationship. you know, they know each other pretty well by now And they've had a lot of intimate and Fank talks by now. Churchill, by the way, has just recovered from what could have been a life threatening illness that he had in North Africa in the latter part of nineteen forty three. So you know, he's coming back from that. And of course, so these are two guys who know each other well enough to really speak frankly. And yet it has to be more than that too, because of who they are. So Eisenhower is fencing with Churchill on a lot of matters, including the Air warar, like you said, and also to, by the way, the air commanders, none of whom really want any part of this guy Eisenhower controlling their assets to you know have missions planned to help the invasion. They want to bomb Germany and bring it to its knees and make the invasion you know, not necessary. In fact, they've been arguing that they ought to be able to do that. you know, Carl Spotz and others like him, the Americans, especially as I mentioned having their own agenda of an independent Air Force. So Eisen RS threatens to resign if he can't control these assets to help in the run up to DJ. So there's a compromise forge in which as of april nineteen forty four He will gain control of the bombers, you know, and begin to and obviously then begin to have some direction as to which missions they fly in support of the invasion Now there will still be bombing missions of Germany and again, that's part of the compromise. But you know, I would say as a rough estimate, the majority, maybe two thirds or so are tending to be earmarked now towards whatever is going to help the invasion. And I mean, you can totally understand Eisenhower's point of view. He's been tasked with this, you know very important mission. He ought to be able to control all of the elements he's going to need to carry it out, not just the sea forces, but the air forces. It's interesting though, in all the know popular media about D Day, you rarely hear any mention of contention between those leaders with Eisenhower himself. He really gained people's trust, didn't he? Oh absolutely. becausecause they're seeing him even more so under stress than he had been in the Mediterranean. I mean, this is a much bigger animal that he's running So every day brings a new kind of crisis whether it's a planning crisis, whether it's a training crisis The intntel side, the political side, dealing with Churchill, dealing with Bernard Montgomery. I mean, that would tax the patience of any one of us. I mean and yet, you know, he's doing with that constantly. And of course then dealing with a guy he knows very well. Omar Bradley, who is the main American ground commander, commander of first Army. Now here their West Point classmates and of course they get on well, but at the same time too you know, Bradley wants things from him that he can't always give. The air people do. the sea people have their requirements and and also too, you know, he has to answer George Marshall basasically his boss is chief of staff of the Army. and in a sense, the Roosevelt administration too because there's so much on the line here. everyverybody wants a finger in this pie. And so Eisenhower during those early months in nineteen forty four is just just constantly absorbed with kind of putting out these fires, whatever they may be. And I think he does it Eremely well. Men who are well aware of the pressures of that kind of level of leadership have to look at this position that this guy's in and think, oh my God, you know, doesnn't envy him at all Eactly He has to deal decisively with George Patton. That's that old, you know, the story. of him slapping the guy and Eisenhower is to put him in his place and post him to England. You mention how much was already in place in the preparations for this time even before Eisenhower moved into his position. What were the changes that Eisenhower made? How dramatic were his contributions to that strategy? So basically they expand on what Morgan and his people had created as a foundation and Morgan and his people envisioned like a three beach landing And so Eisenhower and Montgomery primarily are the two people who kind of expand it to the five beaches we know The two British beaches sword and gold and then in between the Canadian beach, Juneo The Canadians insisted on being part of this. They'd had the incredible division, the third Canadian division preparing for a long time in England and they were going to play a leading role, some might argue the most important role on D dayay And then you're going to have two American beaches. There was always going to be Omaha Beach, which of course is the neexus of the whole thing But what they add is Utah Beach on the Kotenten Peninsula in the extreme west. and then the two U.S. Airborne divisions are going to be landed behind them It also is kind of new once Eisenhower comes aboard. So for that, you've got the brand new one hundred and first airborne that has just currently been deployed to England shortly before this, and the eighty second airborne, much of which, of course, had fought in the Mediterranean was highly experienced Some of was still there. The five hundred fourth parachute infantry was fighting at Anzio in Italy while this is going on. So basically you just have the five hundred fifth and then you got to add two new parachute regiments and then you got the Gider people. So you know, Eisenhower is kind of now looking at a larger land force, which means now you've got to have larger seaborn capability as well So he's got to fight for more shipping and you know, sort of relevant to our conversation earlier about the global war There is just demand for this shipping all over the globe, especially for the Americans and especially you know the famous LSTs that are sort of the key to this whole thing And so Eisenhower is constantly, you know telling Marshall he needs X, Y and Z and he's largely getting it pushback from those in the Pacific or in the Mediterranean or along those lines The wholeano thing is Churchill's idea And it leads actually to the delay of the Normi invasion by about a month. We were going to invade originally in may nineteen forty four But because of shipping Eisenhower had to kind of delay that for about a month. So they really didn't want to invade in june forty four. They wanted to invade in May, but Anzio cost us that mainly because of LSTs So imagine if you're Eisenhower having to constantly, you know struggle with the whole thing And they're already talking about, you know the operation that's going to be the invasion of Japan, you know, and all that shipping that's going to be needed on the other side of the world, just like that. you know, come that season which my own father was part of. I mean, that was all really planned and ready and trained up. and those resources would then be split So this had to happen now We talk about him bearing the responsibility of this thing on his shoulders. He writes a note about this in case of failure a message before D day, which any of these these messages inase Nixon writing about the Apollo all it's just like it's so frightening to consider an individual sitting down and realizing this could really go wrong And oh my God, He writes this note. The troops, the air, and the Navy did all that bravery and devotion to duty could do. If any blame or fault attaches to the attempt, it is mine alone Amazing. Where was that note kept? Where did they find this? So he writes that note more or less on the eve of the Normy evasion, and he folds it up and puts it in his pocket And he finds it there after the evasion has succeeded. And obviously, he's extremely busy kind of forgets about it. and he's like, oh my gosh, lookook at that. you know, look at it a couple days later. wasasn't that qut, you know, But let's think about this moment like you said, he realizes this thing could go sideways. It could go wrong And they're going to be looking for someone to blame, especially in an election year in nineteen forty four. Remember, that's an election year here in the US And so to me is a moment when you find out someone's true who they really are becausecause I think there's many, perhaps most, who would be looking for ways to deflect blame, who would be looking to kind of cover their own bums and somehow moving on. And this is almost unimaginable, I think, sort of in today's America with some of the leaders we have that they would say, Oh, yeah, blame me It's me Eisenower did that. and he didn't know how it was going to turn out He had no idea The fact that he even wrote that note to me reveals who he truly is. Fortunately, he never read to use it. I mean But he didn't know that it's the time he wrote it. And I think that's crucially important to remember. The consequences are so wide you know, the political consequences, of course back home for FDR. And that for Churchill as well in England, they would being tremendously weakened. all kinds of electoral results as a result of that The liberation of Western Europe would be delayed. It would probably have happened, but it would have taken a long time, which of course, then plays its own role in the planning for the Pacific,, as we were talking about. That's how pivotal this moment is. Never mind the whole Soviets, you, expanding further into their occupied territory. It really needs to happen now or never And I should have asked this five or ten minutes ago the amount of resources put on those beaches. Was it more than necessary given the way that the Germans were placed on those beaches on purpose so that we would, you know we're certain to win. I mean, probably so as things turn out because I mean a lot of the fortunately, a lot of the quote German troops you're going to face there are not actually German at all They're basically a roster filler from Eastern Europe because the Germans are having manpower problems. So that's about roughly about a third of the German armed forces in Normy. So it just kind of depends where you are. You may be lucky enough to land where there's people don't want to fight you and it's kind of half defended beaches and there's not a lot in front of you in that respect or you could end up facing their frontline, you best forces. the three fifty second division, most notably at Omaha Beach and of course, as the Canadians and the British face really the toughest of the German armor opposition, not always on D day but therea So yeah, I mean, it's always designed to not be a fair fight if you can help it And you're landing one hundred fifty six thousand troops with that in mind, and everything that backs them up. I mean, all of it depends on shipping and the seeaborne forces, how they can move you and how they can support you. The air over ahead to suppress the Lufwafa, and of course, the Lufwaffa is really just a pitiful presence on D day, if at all. But of course, it's what's going to come after. I mean, DJ is just the beginning. You're going to this enormous campaign in which the Germans have some pretty potent strength. And the other thing I think it's important to remember is it's in modern war and probably in oldld warar, but but in modern war, it's always easier to defend Eespecially with the firepower that you've got at your fingertips in a modern military force as the Germans are You can inflict a lot more losses on attackers than they can on you quite often. And so that really kind of levels the playing field a little bit, not just on a D day where an amphibious invasion is always a tough exercise because it's by definition a frontal attack, really. And that's perilous, but also what comes after trying to gain ground in Normity, especially with the hedgerows and other places in Europe can be incredibly casual intensive and that matters politically. because these are countries that, you know, there's going to be pushback from the electorate if you're losing too many people, especially Britain, which is very manpower poor as time goes forward. And they had to make a very difficult choice to destroy the place that they're saving. You know, they had to, you know kill civilians and do all sorts of horrible things in order to take that land and move move across it to Germany. That was a big part of that decision process We'll take a break now. when we come back, John and I are going to stick with Eisenhower. We're going talk about the first hours of D day and how they played out. Ever wondered what it feels like to be a gladiator, facing a roaring crowd and potential death in the Coliseseum p? 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He's really worried about the operational security at this point of the invasion because now You know, you're sort of telegraphing your punch somewhat that you've gathered these massive military forces in southern England. The amphibious troops have been clustered into what are they're marshaling areas that are called sausages because they look like that on a map And that means they've been briefed on the evasion of what they're going to do, you know, like the great secret of where and when and you don't want the Germans to know that. So they're worried about that. They're worried about the possibility of diplomats from neutral countries inadvertently tipping off the Germans. The Germans, of course on high readiness to figure this out So he's dealing with a lot of that and these little leaks that are happening here and there. like for instance, in the British papers and the crossword puzzles, some of the key code worords in relation to the invasion have showed up like Mulberry and Overlord. and they're like, wait a minute, what's going on with this? Is this tipping off the Germans? I mean, there's a million things to worry about And on top of it all Now you got to worry about the weather because weather matters now more than anything. And in those days leading up to the Nori invasion, of course, now a storm comes in and we know now exactly how it all plays out. And the moment they're trying to figure out, is this going to affect us or not? What kind of decisions do we make? How much time do we have to order our forces to go And then also bring them back. if we want to change our minds. I mean How am I in touch with this headquarters, or that headquarters spread out far and wide? I mean, it is such I mean an enormous effort to try and coordinate all this and then dealing with the weather. And that honestly, that's what caused them as much stress as anything in those few days leading up to the invasion because of the storm and trying to figure a way around that Yeah, let's talk about that in more detail. So In that week prior to it, it had been quite stormy. And first of all, tell me how he gets these weather reports. It's hard to transport ourselves back to this day, but what was the technology of weather forecasting How effective was it? So we don't, of course have our satellites and dopppler and all this kind of stuff. We don't have our little apps on our phone to we look at our radar and all that kind of stuff. For its time, it's incredibly cutting edge because Yes, meteorologists are using historical weather data, you know, to predict. But Beyond that, we've got all these like weather balloons and sensors throughout the Atlantic and the North Atlantic and portions of Europe and obviously Britain And that is a big advantage over the Germans. and it's an example of the Allied victory in the Battle of the Atlantic that the Germans don't control those places and so they don't have as good weather data. They're getting then the Schae meteorology section, in addition to studying the historical weather, they're getting the up to the minute conditions, barometric pressure, winds, moisture, all that kind of stuff from all these various weather stations that are coming in And so they can kind of coate that and analyze it. And of course, then famously, group Captain James Stag, who is now presiding over the meteorology section is looking that at that in addition to the historical data and he's beginning to glean, you know the fact that that a storm is coming in. The Germans don't understand that quite as well Once they do see the storm coming in, they tend to interpret it as Things are just going to be stormy for several days and so probably not going to be invasion We understand conversely that there's going to be a hole in that system because of all that weather data that Stag and the others are analyzing. then of course is going to give them an opening to launch on june sixth. June fifth was the original date, off course, they have to postpone it And that's a lot of stress going in that decision You know, because this is a big coiled spring. You know, once you uncoil that thing, what are you going to do? you know, So yeah, I mean so the Allies are better weather data. I had to look up the location that he his headquarters are at Suffolk House, which is near Portsmouth. He moves down there fairly close to the time, right? And when does he arrive there? He's back and forth, but he arrives there more or less by the end of May. He's living in a trailer which is right off the offite of the mansion there It's called Suffolk House, as you said. So the reason he's there is Admiral Bertram Ramsey, his seeaborn commander, has his headquarters there And so it makes the most sense to kind of coalesce with him in terms of coordination. So Sothichaus becomes kind of the center point for Eisenhower's headquarters during that week or so leading up to the Normany invasion So At any given time, he's either in his trailer Which is full of these like Western paperbacks. He loves like Western novels. Fly fishing equipment? Yeah, he loves fishing, absolutely. So So anything like that that's personal to Eisenhower, letters that he's written to Mimie, you know, and also then then he goes back up to the mansion where where the actual headquarters is. and and most of the activity happens on the first floor You know, there's the incredible map of the whole invasion and it's it's really quite something. So that's that's so he's kind of going back and forth there trying to control the events. I'm sorry to say that I've not been to this place in person and was just looking at the images online, but it's really helpful when you do that and start poking around at those maps and seeing those different things that are still preserved there. It's really takes you, you know to the moment itself Another aspect of this, I don't know if it's real intention behind it, but he's close to the troops, right? He's closer to those landing troops that are that are based in that area He visits the British fiftieth Infantry Division And then the U.S one hundred one airborne division. on june fifth before they make the jump into Northern France, He returns to his headquarters in Portsmouth as those first planes are reaching their drop zones He makes a message, he writes a message to those troops those participating on D day. you are about to embark on the Great Crusade Towwards which we have striven these many months, The eyes of the world are upon you the hope and prayers of liberty loving people everywhere march with you. And he ends with this. I have full confidence in your courage deevotion to duty and skill in battle We will accept nothing less than full victory. Good luck And let us beseech the blessing of Almighty God upon this great and noble undertaking I'm kind of choking up as I read that. It's really moving. I mean to imagine having that moment and all that led up to it, of course, and all the tension and fear that is, you know, imbued in its hoped for results. Oh my gosh, you know, it's incredible that this man could ever sleep again I know and and on top of it, he's smoking four packs of cigarettes a day and don'ing to coffee that he can. I mean it's it is a wonder that you could sleep at all or exist. I mean at it, but he was so articulate in that message and and I think in that sense, he kind of ures. The embodiment of what it brought us all together. There's a dozen nations that contribute to the Normi invasion. a dozen And and I think he's he's communicated with all of them So so like as a soldier, you would have heard that read like over the loudspeaker aboard ship when you're on the way, maybe something like that. If you were airborne, you would get the everyverybody got a leaflet and you probably wouldn't have heard the message. you would have read it on the leaflet. And of course, that became a souvenir. manyany of the guys hung on to those and then some of them sign them like you know, everybody in the squad would sign it and and so that was your little meento. mayaybe fold it up and carry it in your pocket. I think he just really embodies what Safe was and what this coalition at that moment. Eisenhower does not get enough credit. That's all there is to it when you think about all these factors. So let's go to D day itself, june sixth, nineteen forty four. I imagine Eisenhower has been up all night. I mean, this is all going to happen at dawn anyway During the first few hours, Eisenhower lacks the proper information to know what's going on.'s drinking endless cups of coffee as he waits for these invasion reports. in a time of low communication, telephones ringing, people coming into the room with reports instead of reading something in real time and streaming it on your computer, it must just drive you crazy It's I mean exactly it's just total nerves and it's just fragmented info coming in. So I've often said that You know, during the whole weather drama, you know, when Eisen decide whether to launch the invasion or not When he's deliberating, he is arguably the most powerful person in human history at that point in time. when you think about all the military power he has at his disposal Once he gives the go ahead for the invasion though kind of powerless. It's all in the hands of all these young guys who are going to be doing this. And so by june sixth, that's really where he is. He is sort of in a position of being a very interested observer and having to kind of sort through What are we getting here? What's the information? Where is this leading Of course, there's a whole subplot too to his troop visits, you know, wanting to look these guys in the face who he may be sending to their desaths, especially the H hundredter First Airborne, because his air commander Lee Mallory had urged him to call off those drops And it said they're going to be devast, you know, they're going to be horrendous casualties and all that. And so he's worried about that on june sixth. like Is this coming to fruition what Lee Mallory had warned? You know, and I'm going to be responsible So in those hours there is little peace of mind and there's also confusion which is this fog of war because He's confused. the guys who are actually doing the fighting are just confused too, even though they're you know, sorting this thing out and getting the results But I think it's fair to say that as we're into later in the day by probably afternoon and thereafter. I think there's a picture growing at Southolk House and for Eisenhower. things are coming together well enough you know, that this isn't a disaster. They know there's some serious losses. But that they know that it's pointing in the right direction. Mbe would it be the best way to say it. When would that have been during the day, do you think? I think it's probably by later in the day, like the afternoon probably by You know, mid probably late late afternoon would be my sort of just guessimate. I think by then you know that you haven't been repulsed in any of the landing beaches, even Omaha. You know, by then they know Omaha has been difficult, but they know that they they've got the foothold. They know that the British airborne landings have gone reasonably well. They know that the American landings have been quite scattered They are not necessarily an unmitigated disaster as Lee Mallory had worried about And even he he contacts I, I think it's that day and he apologizes and he says, you know, it's hard to admit when you're wrong but I was wrong and I apologize for giving that stress. And I think that was big of him becausecause he didn't necessarily have to do that and and so this was quite a comfort to Eisenhower. those airborne guys that he had sent in were not all going to disaster. And he knows that certainly by dinner time on june sixth And all the stuff that we learned about later about the Germans, you know lacking the resources because of whatever not you know, waking up Hitler because he wanted to sleep or whatever those things are mostly apocryphal, I'm sure. When do the Allies learn that that counterattack isn't coming? You pretty much know that by you know the time you're getting to darkness on june sixth, and that's very late, of course, because youve got long days in Normand So you're probably talking about ten at night, something like that until you have real full darkness. By then, there's bit it's a bit of into climac depending where we are, you know Utah Beach, you don't necessarily to worry about a conter attack. Omaha Beach, you've had some but nowhere near enough to imperil the beachhead The Canadians, I think, really deal with the most difficult of the counter attacks almost by design because they have some of the most potent German combat power in their area of operations and they fend them off quite well. So in that respect, I think if we're looking at the bigger picture, like from Montgomery's viewpoint Yeah. I mean, you definitely haven't had the kind of immediate counter attack on a grand scale that you might have worried about