Legacy of the Serial Killer

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So you can focus on making memories, not managing the details This summer get one thousand bonus points and a chance to win two hundred fifty thousand bonus points So wherever you're headed, make the stay part of the trip and make it count with this limited time offer. Life's a trip Make the most of it at bestwestern. com No additional purchase necessary for sweeps. See bonus points, terms and conditions, and sweeps rules for details. and visit bestwestern d. com for complete terms and conditions We're in Chicago, eighteen ninety five Detectives move cautiously through the dim claustrophobic corridors of a structure the neighborhood locals call the murder castle in here The air is thick with noxious smells of chemicals and smoke Behind seemingly ordinary storefront walls The detectives have discovered a number of strange passageways. Hidden brooms staircases leading to nowhere In the basement, they find a furnace sururgical tables and what they imagine are scattered human remains out on the street orter's clamor for information fodder to feed an ever growing national obsession with this story now exploding in the papers. justust two years earlier city that dazzled with the eighteen ninety three World's Fair was now confronting something far more cryptic and criminal And at the center of it all stands a charming if unassuming doctor and businessman. Wh goes by the name H H. Holmes Hey everybody, I'm Don Weilban. You've clicked through to American History Hit and thanks for that. Our guest today is author Harold Schchter Professor Emeritis of Queens College, the city University of New York. He is the author of two dozen works of nonfiction, including Depraved, The definitive True story of H H. Holmes, whose grotesque crimes shattered turn of the century Chicago If you know the story, there's still much to be learned. If you've never heard it before Take a deep breath and brrace yourself. rofessor Scher, Harold, thank you for joining us. My pleasure. Thankk you for inviting me on. This is a notoriously gruesome tale, we should caution listeners. Makes me consider right off the challenge of facing true crime historians in covering such a you know scandalous case as this one. This is the stuff of leegend, Jack the Ripper level But how hard is it when you do this to separate fact from fiction when you're writing about it? That's an excellent question. veryy hard especially when I was researching the book which was back before The internet allowed people like me to have access to a lot of old newspapers I had to been many, many weeks at various libraries, including the U. S Library of Congress, going through microfilms of old newspapers. And one thing about the newspapers of the late eighteen hundreds, eighteen nineties and so on They were very, very sensationalistic. and they often You know, their unspoken motto was Why let the truth get in the way of a good story? They were not above making up, you know fabricating all kinds of lurid details that there was very little physical evidence for So yes, separating fact from ion becomes a challenge. especially in the case of somebody like HH Holmes that a lot of myths have grown up about. We're in the late eighteen hundreds, as you say, yellow journalism is just being born that will be capitalized on by the likes of Hearst and all the rest, Entil today I mentioned in the opener, we're two years past the worldor's Colombian expxosition of eighteen ninety three. The World's Fair, celebrating the four hundredth anniversary of Christopher Columbus' arrival in the New World, alsoso marking importantly, the resurgence of Chicago after its big fire of eighteen seventy five. This is the Gilded Age in America. Mark Twain called it so. Conttext is a huge factor in this story, isn't it? Absolutely. not only because of, as you were saying, the rise of yellow journalism at the time both the Hest, you know, Hearst and Pulitzer. having this Tition over who could, again, out sensationalize each other and sell more newspapers. as you say the Gilded age this era when There was this worship of the self made millionaire. cultural heroes peopleople like Andrew Carnegie. And Morgan and so on. You know, one thing I've discovered in my research is every era seems to produce a criminal who embodies the dark underside at that moment. Isn't that interesting? You know, it's like Charles Manson Yeah, exact embodying you know, the dark Shadow side. of the hippie counter culture. and so on Holommes was the incarnation of the darkest impulses of the gilded age. There was tremendous energy in the country at that time. I mean, heavily industrialized cities like Chicago, especially Chicago. crammed with immigrants are now creating this new kind of national identity. They are the major hubs of economic activity. and this magnet that they become creates its own folklore, almost, you know, that just layers and layers upon itself. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Holmes was a man of enormous ambition, great intelligence very resourceful. I write in my book. you know, that he could have been kind of paragon Gilded Age success if he hadn't been done by his own psychopathology. Yeah, exactly. You know, he employed all those characteristics of very, very dark ends. Where's he from, prorofessor? He was born in a small New Hampshire town Gilmonton. He trained as a physician. and had worked as a pharmacist in Philadelphia and again gradually made his way to icago, which as you were suggesting, you know, at that time had really risen phhoenix like from the ashes of the Great fire of the early eighteen seventies had become this flourishing industrial and mercantile center, attracted, as you said, all kinds of people from the surrounding countryside who are looking to grab their share of the American dream And at the same time, it also would attract But like Holmes. predators who saw in this great influx of newcomers potential targets for their ro psychopathic greed. His name is not what he ended up being known, right? Yeah, his birth name was Herman Mudget. That was his last name was Mudget. Yeah You could sort of see why he might have wanted to change it. You stole my line. That's what I was gonna to say. I mean, I suppose you could say this of any of these super criminals that how unlikely they are. but in his case, really so much so. Gilmonton, New Hampshire, as you mentioned, is a lovely town, an affluent place. It was eventually becomes the model for Peyton placelace, as I understand it. It was so typical of New England. As a kid, he excelled in school He attended Phillips Exeter He marries early, his first wife relatively young. Ateen eighty two, age eighteen, he enrolls at the Department of Medicine and Surgery at the University of Michigan, even then a prestigious institution draws him to medicine, do you know? Well, again, there are all kinds of legends about that. One of which was when he was a kid because of his outstanding academic achievements He was a subject of bullying by some of the other kids in town and that they once dragged him into the office of the local physiciian and made him embrace the anatomical skeleton. that the doctor had hanging in his office. which supposedly both traumatized him and at the same time inspired his fascination with human anatomy Right. and the dissection of the human anatomy Yes. It's thought that this was the first time he ever embarked on on criminal activities while he was at Michigan, that he facilitated body snatchers to provide medical cadavers teamwork with his own professor, right? Yeah, well, that wasn't that unusual back then. Anatomy professors both here in the United States and overseas We're always faced with a shortage of cadavers I for use in their anatomy classes partly because the laws stipulated that the only cadavers that could be turned over to medical schools with those of executed criminals So there was a Again, a big shortage of material. So yeah, grave robbing for that purpose was okay and not uncommon phenomenon at the time? Yeah. he was opportunistic.'s let's be kind in using the word. I mean, he saw an opportunity he went for, but he would do that in such a way that that would become the manipulations of a con man, which is so much really the real story in the end of Holmes, not to spoil alert there. I mean, he was that type of person who was for whatever perhaps ego or narcissistic reason able to see opportunity and then take advantage of people. That's really the machinery of what's the engine of what's going on, right? Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, Holmes was a classic psychopath. You know, he saw other human beings as simply objects to be manipulated for his own welfare his own financial gain He had no apparent ability to empathize or with other people, men, women or children he lacked a conscience He was also very plausible. You know, the thing about psychopaths like homes, as we know, is that they present what one psychologist famously called the Mask of sanity you know, he appeared, you know, to be this very personable, charming successful businessman an entrepreneur and no one could possibly suspect, again, as is the case with all like this set under NesSAap you know, as this monstrous self. Sure. And he has this upbringing that gives him all the social etiquetets that he needs to use that cover or to create that cover He arrives in Chicago in the mid eighteen eighties, takes up a job as a pharmacist, as you mentioned, quickly ingratiates himself into the Englewood neighborhood of that area of that town reinventing himself now as doctor Henry Howard Holmes. This is his pseudonym, the new name for a new con He takes over a pharmacy which he has some legitimate claim to as he's gone to medical school, I guess He charms the owner's widow before she mysteriously disappears. Is this his first victim? Well, that's one of the things remains very fuzzy When I wrote my book I certainly presented it as the case. based on the research I was able to do in these hundred year old newspapers it has since become Noan. that he A, she was not necessarily a widow to her husband whose name was Holton did not die Holmes took possession of the pharmacy and that she herself survived after he became the owner. And the notion here is that he moves in as his partner Because he wants to own it himself. The Chicago he walks into is booming, roaring in every positive and negative. And now there has been the world's fair. I mean, it's coming up. He gets there in eighteen eighty eight. It's just around the corner. How much was the world and Chicagoans and Henry Holmes and those in his new new guys aware of this years's prior Holmes would have known about this coming and seen it as an advantage, correct? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, he would have been scheming for a while as to how to take financial advantage. of this great event, which is going to bring well ultimately millions of out of towners Cago to visit the greatreat white city as it was called. So here is this H H Holmes, Henry Holmes who has come to Chicago, set himself up in whatever means with a prosperous business in maybe anticipation of the fact that a lot of people are going to be coming. now from a business standpoint, smart move. invvesting into a business where in a growing town with lots of people coming down the pike But the legend begins to form around the fact that he seems to have other motives at work here They built a building, which we'll cover in a moment here. advertising rooms for rent. lodgings for fair visitors, many of those who were said to be young women One can understand if you look at this story through a certain lens how this was all part of a grand plan part of a nefarious practice of a psychopath at work here. And we'll take a break now and consider that image and come back and find out how true that is and how grrizly his crimes really were This episode is brought to you by Best Western Hotels and Resorts Summer is upon us. And you know what that means Vacation Whether you've been planning it for months or you're ready to pack a bag and go on a whim, having a place you can rely on makes every trip feel that much easier That's where B Western comes in From scenic road trips to spontaneous adventures abroad, you'll find welcoming stays wherever you land So you can focus on making memories, not managing the details This summer get one thousand bonus points and a chance to win two hundred fifty thousand bonus points. So wherever you're headed, make the stay part of the trip. and make it count with this limited time offer Life's a trip Make the most of it at bestwestern. com No additional purchase necessary for sweeps. See bonus points, terms and conditions, and sweeps rules for details. and visit bestwestern. com for complete terms and conditions everver wondered what it feels like to be a gladiator, facing a roaring crowd and potential death in the Coliseseum Find out on the ancient podcast from History Hit Twice a week, join me Tristan Hughes as I hear exciting new research about people living thousands of years ago Fr the Babylonians, to the Celts to the Romans And visit the ancient sites which reveal who and just how amazing our distant ancestors were That's the ancients from History Hit Welcome back, Speaking with Writer, Harold Schter, author of Depraved, The Definitive True Story of H H. Holmes By this point in the story, professor, Holmes has arrived in Chicago and set up his shop The building that he builds becomes legendary for sure. It's called the Murder Castle in all of its various accounts How much of this should we believe? First of all, tell me what the legend is? Well, let me begin by talking about the building itself. So Homes purchased a plot of land across from the pharmacy that he was working out And he began to construct this very large building. Of course, back then, in the wake of the Chicago fire, large construction projects like that characteristic of Chicago builds this three story kind of rambling building the ground floor of which he rents out to various merchants and businessmen. floors of which He was presumably going to use as a kind of hotel for world's fare visitors several things about the building. Holmes himself was the architect and he was not much of an architect So the building had all kinds of structural flaws. also He kept hiring different construction workers and then firing them so we didn't have to pay them Anyway, the building itself ended up being a somewhat imposing structure extended over a city block But the interior again had all of these features were a reflection of Holmes' and competence as an architect. You know, there were like stairwells that didn't really lead to anywhere the corridors were very Byzantine and mazize like. So after Holmes' crimes were discovered and reporters for the Pulitzer and herst Proto tabloids. began to investigate the house. All these stories began to emerge that it had been this kind of medieval torture castle in which Holmes murdered and disposed of an indeterminate number of victims Some people say over a hundred. So that's the legend. He's America's first serial killer is the legend. I mean, even even in that title isn't isn't correct because there were plenty of them before before he would have been. But nonetheless, it's a fabulous sensational story at a sensational time in a sensational city. Yes. And you know, Homes becomes associated with all these folkloric monsters, particularly Bluebeard Again, this depraved aristocrat who murdered all these women in his horror castle So that was the legend And that legend has been perpetuated And to some extent I take I, you know, as having written in a way You know, the first major book about homes. I take a little bit of responsibility perpetuating that legend How much do we actually know about the types of people that he targeted? if indeed he was targeting them? The legend or the alleged activities had a lot to do with him finding young women. He had he would seduce them. He would marry them bigamously. He would take life insurance policies on them first having gain control of their life savings. I mean, all of these things are part of this legend. Is all of that up and up for question? No, I mean, it's definitely true that Holmes was a bigamist It's definitely true that he murdered several of his mistresses We know that he committed some very appalling crimes later in his career including the murder of three innocent children what has been called into question laterally by researchers is the issue of how many, if any Fair goers were murdered in his supposed Murder castle? I see And the evidence seems to be posossibly none were Mmm you know, If you think about it for a minute these stories about dozens, if not hundreds of fairgoers from out of town meeting these mysterious, terrible deaths in Homes's Castle You have to wonder, well Did any family members notice that theirir sister didn't return from the world's. I mean, you know, there were no There were no reports of any family members anywhere in the U. S who worried that they had friends or neighbors or kin going to the Chicagoirls Fair and then disappearing So, you know, almost all of that stuff was a fabrication of the yellow press. There is no doubt that Holmes was a serial killer you know, the degree of his crimes and the nature of his crimes you know, has been very, very exaggerated. We want to paint the picture of these people who are like him, you know, heya goes as monsters as the Jeffrey Dahmer type where, you know, it's for the pure need and to feed this this savage beast inside of them that they're not even in control of. I's that's the idea of these o murderers. In Holmes case, it has a lot more to do with opportunity, right? It's the pursuit of money And whoever's getting in the way of that needs to be removed. That's a different kind of serial killer. It's also's a serial killer, but a different sort of, you know, level, I guess, if you want to say it But that raises a very interesting point. and I've spoken on the subject quite a bit. The term serial killer it can be traced back actually to the nineteen thirties. when it was first applied, by a German detective to a very, very notorious what they used to call lust murderer Peter Curton. If you've ever seen the famous Fritzlang movie M Peter Laurie that's based on Peter Curtain. But the term serial killer was coined specifically to describe as you see, like Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer, the Hillside Stanglers Edmund Kamper. In other words It was specifically coined to describe a certain kind of psychopathic sex murderer. an extreme sexual sadus. who derives his sick erotic pleasure. from kidnapping and torturing and murdering innocent victims. As you say with homes Though there undoubtedly was an element of sadism involved, his primary motivation was financial. Again, he was like In that s sense a classic con artist. except one whose psychopathology led him to murder. Sure. He was willing to cross that line So there is a little bit of a distinction between somebody like Hommes, And somebody again, you know, like those classic serial murderers from the seventies and eighties and nineties that we think of. But I do want to understand just for the listener's sake, how colorful this story really was told I mean, you mentioned the building the murder castle First of all, Second of all, it contained, according to accounts in the papers, secret rooms, trap doors, a hidden chute leading to the basement. Of course, what would use that as a mere o killer? throw the bodies down and a purpose built crematorium to get rid of things. Now, they did find human remains. People did die in this place, but your point is well taken that this is a time when you sell newspapers by telling big stories. And so this naturally got inflamed to a degree. Well, he definitely sold the remains of a couple of his victims to medical schools No doubt about that. But they were a number of women who had become his mistresses and who for various reasons, he decided he wanted to dispose of. There's a classic Western by John Ford. Classic John Wayne Western. called the man who shot Liberty vows And its the very end a newspapermman is interviewing Jimmy Stewart. I won't go into all the details of the plot If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it. But all these stories have grown up about how Jimmy Stewart Chilled Lberty valence. He was the man who shot liberty vience. Liberty vialence was this outlaw who would terrorize the territory played by the great Lee Mar ofam It turned out that wasn't true turnurned out Sean Wayne course had been the man who killed Liberty Belles, but nobody knew that And when James Stewart wants to reveal that truth, the journalist says When legend becomes fact, print the legend. Yes. And the Hol story is like a classic, classic case of that You know, these legends were accepted as facts and have been perpetuist facts I have to say almost everything about the murder castle and those death rooms and so on what was a complete myth Again, which is not to say that Holmes was not a serial killer. He was a serial killer He committed appalling crimes. But what happened is after the discovery of those other crimes That was when these reporters for Hirst and Pulitzer entered the building Homes is builded discovered all these weird anomalies. you know, like staircases that didn't go anywhere and so and invented these incredibly lurid nightmarish explanations for them. sometometimes even they would offer attractions There was one point at which, for example, they discovered some bones in the basement and immediately publish stories about the the were her remains of Homes' victims Those are the page one stories with blaring headlines. If you look at the papers like three days later page twenty six in a little paragraph on the bottom item saying, o, by the way those rib bones We're from a cow. You know what I'm saying? At some point he begins as all these guys do to overstep himself U key victim that speaks to this Holmes was arrested in nineteen ninety three after a fire broke out at his home and he was suspected of insurance fraud The fact is he had developed a scheme with an associate, right Ben Pitel to defraud an insurance company for ten thousand dollars, a lot of money in those days. by faking Pitel's death and claiming the insurance This was to take place in Philadelphia with Pitzel's wife claiming the money. But Holmes had another plan to this. Can you tell me about his secret version of events. Well Holmes said apparently pulled off some kind of scheme like this before. The idea was ten thousand dollars of life insurance would be taken out in Pitel's name with his wife Care as the beneficiary. Then they would Stage Pitel's death and Homes would supplier Daver. I mean, he was used to getting Davers for his medical school, Conies back in the day they would get a cadaver and substitute it Pitel and They would disfigure it in some way that it would be difficult to identify And they would claim that Pidla died in this accident, collect the ten thousand dollars insurance or Carry would collect it. and then homes He had an associate or this shady lawyer named How they would get the money from Care That was the original plan but homes being homes. What he did was He actually murdered Pitel and burned his face so that it looks somehow like Pidl who is at that point posing as a and dayagegeym had somehow exploded some chemicals in his office and had suffered these disfiguring burns to his face and so on and so forth. But he murdered Pitzel and They did collect the money. Right. And then he has to lie to Pitel's widow, you know, obviously Was she in on the original scheme? Well, yes, she knew about it. Pidzel had confided in her that they were going to pull off the scheme and told her that if she saw any news reports that he had died in an accident in his office in Philadelphia, She shouldn't really get worried because it wouldn't really be him It would be this cadaver that they had gotten for the job So he gives Holmes his cover story for what is Holmes' actual plan, which is to murder his partner take the money, lie to the widow, and claim that the husband was still alive But over time, Holmes becomes paranoid. He suspects that one of her five children would raise the alarm on me. And that's where you mentioned before the murder of two of these children, Alice and Nelly. six threeree, threeree children. Yeah It's a little boy I think his name was also Howard. Those were incredibly heinous crimes Care was just very naive, goable woman who had known Holmes for a long time. I mean Holmes had employed Pitel at his handyman for a number of years Holmes managed to persuade her to turn over the children to his care Well they somehow moved around avoiding any potential investigations. And in the course of these travels killed all three of her children And he actually planned to kill Carrie and her other two children, but that what that plan went awry you know, and it was shortly after that that he was arrested So after let's take a break and consider this man for a little bit. when we come back Harold and I will discuss how Holmes was eventually caught in the gruesome legacy that lives in his wake Ever wondered what it feels like to be a gladiator, facing a roaring crowd and potential death in the Colosseum Find out on the Ancient podcast from History Hit Twice a week Join me, Tristan Hughes, as I hear exciting new research about people living thousands of years ago fromr the Babylonians, to the Celts, to the Romans And visit the ancient sites which reveal who and just how amazing our distant ancestors were That's the ancients from History Hit Welcome back. So Harold, Helmms's racket is on the verge of unraveling The extent of his crimes are about to be revealed to whatever degree of the truth there is, but nonetheless How was he finally caught? What brought him down? Well, the insurance agency that had paid off this life insurance policy on Pidel members of the Officials in the agency were very, very suspicious that this had been a scam and they eventually brought in Pinkerton aggency You know, the Pinkerton agency was lead very famous private detective agency at the time their logo was an all seeing eye And that's where the phrase private eye comes from Yes, so these Pickerton detectives We're on Holmes' trail and they finally nabbed him when he was unawares and brought him back to Chicago to stand trial initially, for this insurance fraud because Holommes kept insisting that Pitzel was still alive children were still alive There was really no evidence at the time that he had committed murder They exhumed Heitel's corpse and discovered that it was in fact Hisil then Holmes claimed that he had committed suicide. this bizarre way. Anyway, it was clear that he had murdered Pitel and that he was going to be tried for Pitel's murder But the question remained what happened to the three children who had been in his care for all that time and whom he had moved around to different cities just to make sure that he wasn't being followed. and the Chicago police But one of their crack detectives a man named Frank Gyer on the case and Geyer over weeks of intensive investigation and retracing Holmes' trail from Indianapolis, Philadelphia up u Kena managed ultimately to discover the remains Of all three children The little boy Howard His remains were found stuffed into a chimney body had been incinerated. the two young girls apparently been killed Homes had apparently somehow lured them into the steamer trunk in which they were carrying their possessions. drilled a hole in it. stuck a hose in the hole and fed gas from a gas light into the trunk and asphyxiated them both. He kept promising the children if they were going to be reunited with their mother that they were going to see their father. He kept offering excuses to the widow Carri as to why He hadn't brought the children back to her. You know, he would say, Ohh, well they were visiting their father There's no doubt that Homes you know, was diabolically clever. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah But that entire trip, all those sales trips were really about killing those kids and covering his tracks about the murder of their father. Unbelievable He was also arrested eighteen ninety four on an unrelated horse theft charge I mean, he was try trying all kinds of skills, wasn't he Yeah. and it was during one of those arrests in St. Louis. for another scam that he ended up in jail. with what was then a very, very notorious bandit. named Marion Hedgepeth who has been totally forgotten but who was one of the Tim legendary badman of the American West while Holmes was in prison with Hedgepeth in order to pull off the insurance scam homes needed a shady lawyer And he asked Hedgepath if Hedgeph had any recommendations and Hedgepeth gave him the name of this lawyer named Howe in Philadelphia. indeed participated in the whole Pitel scam, although he didn't know Pitel had been murdered Anway was hedge path. A Holmes was arrested, Hedgepeh contacted the authorities and said, Hey, there was this guy in jail with me last year who told me he was going to be pulling off this kind of scam. and need a lawyer And I gave him the name of how and his name was Aries Holmes. it's one of the ways that the authorities manageed to pinpoint homes Interesting. He's tried for this eventually in Philadelphia, right? Yes. he's tried in Philadelphia Pidsonberurder Mhm yeah He will try to conduct his own defense there having rejected a legal team P pererhaps over inflated ego. He can take care of this is believe in himself. The jury deliberated. and when does this happen by the way? This is in eighteen ninety four? Yeah. jury deliberates for two and a half hours before handing a guilty verdict didn't take very much time at all. He is only being tried for the murder of this man, right? Not for the children? Correct. They were holding that off the other charges which would have taken place in different jurisdictions where the murders occurred, where the bodies were foundll but they were holding them off as backups. You know, in case he wasn't ss to hang Pite will murder for whatever reason, then they can go on and try him for Howard's murder, littleittle girl's murder The storytelling will take place, but for now legally they only need one murder to kill a guy. Before his execution, though Holmes does confess to twenty seven murders. Big question mark hangs over the validity of that. He ends up claiming one hundred and thirty three. It I guess once he is knows his fate and that he's going to hang, he might as well get more and more famous while he goes, right Hirst in particular If you look at newspapers from back then Every time there was a very, very sensational murder, you know, I've written about some others at around the time Hirst would, you know, offer the money to concoct Th these incredibly sensationalistic confessions. which pretty much had nothing to do with writing or dictating You know, these were again your fabrications. of her writers So yeah, I mean, Holmes wrote this very over the top lurred melodramatic confession, which you talked about being posossessed by the devil you know, and murdering these twenty seven people And then he increase it. You know, there's also the question of narcissism of these criminals, you know, who want to go down in history as the most monstrous criminals of the age. who want to become more famous then Jack the Ripper. or more famous. There was a very notorious case in the nineteen twenties where some guy wanted to become more famous Then Leopold and Log So that's for it that's not uncommon So it was driven both by homes. Megalomania And also by the fact that Hearst offered him a lot of money We should also say that before Holmes was hanged He claimed he'd only murdered two people, two of his mistresses and that both had had died during illegal abortions he was performing. So he recanted so called confession that he had written for Hearst But he also never really confessed to these other crimes that he clearly committed the murder of Pitel and the murder of his three children Having written a book on the subject, what's your theory? How many people did Holomes really kill I think at the end You know, byy the time I got to the end of the book kind of realize that what I had written preceding three hundred pages There were a lot of inaccuracies you know, that I was again caught up in the legend at the end. so I did a reasonable count. I think I said we can only say for certain that Holes murdered, well only, put only in air quotes Seven people. Okay. primarily around the Pitel scheme. Well, they're Pisel, but also these mistresses he wanted to get rid of. Right, exactly. And the pharmacy he wanted to own. Yes Yeah. It's always something that stands in the way of him bettering his life as is always the case with these guys So HH Holmes was executed may seventh, eighteen ninety six at a prison in Philadelphia having been convicted of this murder of his associate The storytelling of this, which you've been hinting at all the while along here, is really the other story in his in his tale The inflation of his victims, the the motive behind his murders, especially the creation of this lair of his, the murder castle. I suppose it is the time that he's in prison and then shortly after that they turn this place inside out, right? Well, what happened yes, so we're going to make it into kind of murder museum Yeah one thing that has always been true and remains true even today B will flock to the site of a notorious crime,? You know, these morbid curiosity seekts. You know, sometimes those buildings have to be destroyed the notorious School of Plainfield, Wisconsin You know, they burned down his house because they knew would attract all kinds of Morbid sightseers You know, they, they raised Jeffrey Dahmer's apartment So Ay same thing tear these does down. Yeah. So yes, there was a guy who had already announced his plans purchase the castle and make it a tourist attraction But then it too mysteriously burned down. So that never came to pass. It was a watershed moment. I mean, here we are a century later or more talking about him still But for law enforcement, he's a new kind of criminal, isn't he? I mean, there had been others like this, but he took it to another level because America was at another level. Well, absolutely. You know, the Gyer's hunt to find out what it become of Pitel's children was, you know, an extraordinary, extraordinary feat Al of detection. You're speaking of Detective Frankkeyer of the Philadelphia pololice and he was really driving this manhunt to find out what happened So yeah, his kind of detective work I guess that comes out of the Pinkerton's practices as well. Law enforcement in America was professionalizing was was organizing to another level. Teddy Roosevelt would take it to a different place in New York. You know, the whole thing was becoming much more of an institution in these cities. And that's the other subplot of this, the advent of that urban landscape in America changes the storytelling. of America And those newspapers, especially those publications, the magazines, begin capitalizing on this darker version of America, isn't it?s that's kind of the case that this crazy factory driven industrialization was creating new kinds of predators. Oh, absolutely. And you have to realize, I mean, you know professional lives as law enforcement was becoming It was still in a rather primitive state For example, most police departments in the country, maybe all of them, you know weren't using fingerprinting yet evenven though that technology had been developed I mean, that continued way into the you know early twentieth century. And clearly they didn't have the kinds of forensic tools You know, that we later came to develop. I mean, what's interesting to me the realization, you know, that there's that journalistic saying If it bleeds, it bleeds, which is sometimes attributed to Heirst, although I'm not sure. he's the one originally coined up But that realization it was known as early as the eighteen forties you know, the first really Proto tabloid in our country. Was the New York Herald? you know, what they came to call the penny press and the publisher of that wrote something that I consider very important.