Legacy and Future of Empires

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So you can focus on making memories, not managing the details This summer get one thousand bonus points and a chance to win two hundred fifty thousand bonus points So wherever you're headed, make the stay part of the trip and make it count with this limited time offer. Life's a trip Make the most of it at bestwestern. com No additional purchase necessary for sweeps. See bonus points, terms and conditions, and sweeps rules for details. and visit bestwestern. com for complete terms and conditions In the beginning, the American Revolution seemed unlikely to succeed The American colonies, now a new nation of just two point five million people We're facing off against the greatest military power on the planet at the time Great Britain. And yet In seventeen eighty one. British surrendered major forces at Yorktown. and two years later in seventeen eighty three. After eight and a half years of fighting British and Americans signed the Treaty of Paris. the American Revolution was over. The British arrmy was defeated in America had her independence Welcome to American History Hit, I'm Don W Weyldman, and as we approach the two hundred fiftieth anniversary of the foundounding document of our nation Declaration of Independence, the one that began the whole process We are heading into the archives for a conversation I had with fellow podcast host Dan Snow. and engineer officer and command historian Major Jonathan Breton Together, we explore how the British were somehow defeated And just when it became clear that the so called Ct net alarms would reign victorious llo glem How you doing good to be on the podcast? Pleasure to be here. Thank you so much. wish I could be there in person. Take your positions My job today is to keep you man at a friendly distance here Before we get into the nitty gritty, let's give a quick overview From seventeen seventy five until seventeen eighty three, after a hundred years of colonialization and almost twenty years of unrest Revolutionaries from thirteen of Britain's North American colonies were at war with their British rulers The war began in skirmishes with the first shots fired at Lexington and Concord in april seventeen seventy five The revolutionary forces were rudimentary mostly using guerrilla tactics against the more organized forces of the British military. In the summer of seventeen seventy six, july fourth The colonies declare independence from the British. giving their forces a much needed boost Finally, the tables start to turn in favor of the Continental Army, the Americans with the battles of Trenton and Saratoga The Americans are further galvanized in seventeen seventy eight when the French enter the fight with them and when Spain and the Dutch declare war against the British. Now, rather than just trying to subdue a rebellion in the colonies The British find themselves in a global war Finally, in october seventeen eighty one with victory at Yorktown, Pace is in sight for the Americans. The war was brutal Both sides had moments of brilliance and disaster. But were the colonies always destined to win entlemen. Give me an overview of what's at stake for both sides here. What are they fighting for Jonathan New first They're fighting for empire They're fighting for essentially the British. and remember, they're all British at this time are fighting for this idea that the British Empire will extend to What is now Pittsburgh is the Forks of the Ohio. It will extend to Canada. It will extend to the rest of the Sugar Islands Of course, throughout the whole war, it will extend to India The idea is that you are fighting for empire. You can boil it down from a Colonial provincial perspective that they are fighting For a variety of reasons, everything from a religious idea that you know those evil papists gotta go to the idea that they'd like to have a little bit of peace and quiet on their frontier. But at the end of the day, I think, you know what you've got is you're fighting a war for empire, as historian Fred Anderson called it What are the Americans fighting for down from a British perspective I guess we think they're fighting to Avoid paying any tax. Avoid paying their fair share. The seven years war the French Indian Wars cost a vast amount of money. That war was fought started by the Americans, I should say, young George Washington strolls into the Forks of the Ohio, strolls into the Pennsylvania back countountry and inadvertently starts a global war So that war is being fought to protect these British colonies to ensure that they're freed from French and indigenous enemies and they'd want to pay their fair share. So it's I guess, but For me really it's a war about dealing with the messy endings of the previous war. Now we've heard with that in the twentieth century, they might think about the Second World War grows out of the first. You might think about the Vietnam in a way grows out of the Se World War as well. That's the nature of these things Britain ends up with this massive, unexpected, very expensive, enormous North American empire stretches from fromr really Florida up to Hudson Bay And they got to work out what to do. who's going to run it? Who's going to pay for it? Wh's going to control it And one element, don't you think Jonathan is Actually, this war is also about who gets to enjoy the benefits of that new big empire People in Virginia, people in Pennsylvania, people in in the lower colonies saying hang on, we think we should be not just extending up to the forks Ohio, we should be go even further. We want the land to the Missippi and maybe even beyond And actually the Brits are saying no, no, no, no, no, this is not going to be just a free for all from our American colonists. We're going to take a more dout. you know, so this is an argument over the shape of this massive and unexpected gift, but it turns out to be a very, very poison gift that land in the British Empireresn So I mentioned at the top The resources are obviously very different Outgunned and outmanned. Thank you, Hamilton for making that phrase very common One advantage that colonials have is home turf Are they going to be able to use that, Jonathan? Is that really such an advantage The biggest advantage it iss the Atlantic Ocean That's America's biggest advantage always and Dan can sit there and say, well, you know, the Atlantic Ocean is just a great surface to convey the Royal Navy. And the ships of the fleet and his Majesty's forces will crush the upper. No, it's a phenomenal barrier that means that anything that happens in the colonies one, the information is going to take three weeks to a month or two to get back ross the ocean. So the information war that can be fought in the colonies because from the purposes of these nascent Americans, these rebelling individuals, tryrying to convey this idea of what on earth are we fighting for and why you should fight with us is probably more important than what we are going to do to the British, because first in order to actually have anything to fight the British with, you actually have to have united colonies. And if there's anyone who's more fractious prior to seventeen seventy five I mean, I guess Parliament, but also it's the thirirteen American colonies. I mean they just cannot get along all. And so first, so you have to have that and then also anything that happens, it means that if British are going to have to ship massive amounts of supplies across this ocean. So this long supply line, this long line of communication That's absolutely vital. So when we talk about home turf for the Americans It's less the land. Now, I will say that the British officer perspective in North America, to quote a British officer who lands in seventeen fifty five, I believe, and looks at the Ohio country and says, I cannot conceive how war is made in such country. That's probably a lot of the British perspective. The terrain is going to be difficult for both sides. Yeah. And learning from Jonathan for the first time that occasionally these US states don't get on very well. I'm surprised to hear that frractious, you say. that's exciting news. One to watch, maybe. I think you're totally right the Atlantic Ocean is a big disadvantage. The landscape it just swallows up armies, it breaks armies. there's far more water and marsh and bog and rock and trees than there are in the A pit of war where the British armies used to fighting in France in Northern France and Belgi. I also think that get the same proble we do in maybe Vietnam when this superpower goes a long way away It is able when the enemy standing in front of them They' able to fight and often destroy them It's when the enemy's not standing in front of them. It's when they just drift back at there's this They're fighting communities. there are people that turn up pick up a musket and just make life incredibly difficult for the British Army across all of the count It's just hard to hold down vast amounts of terrain. no matter how big your army is. Well, you're talking about the guerrilla tactics, which all every American student is raised to honor, you know, working with what you have, you know And they learned it from the Native Americans, All all these sort of mythology things that we learned. Definitely mythology. Yeah. definitely myology tons of mythology And yet it's the way things work at the Battles of Lexington Conquered But we you know lose these battles right through to the middle of the war. So at first, everyone has at hand is working out pretty well for the British. Things are going to go pretty well for them for a long time in this war I guess so I guess the big problem the British arrmy is not as big as it needs to be. The British have bet the farm since the seventeenth century or you know maybe even on having a big Navy, right? Britain's an island you think, well, we can protect our homeland and we can start to enjoy the opportunities of global trade and maybe even some colonies in the rest of the world by keeping a big navy So the idea of running a big navy and a big army at the same time. Prussia has an army around three hundred thousand strong at this point. And Prussia is is it stretches, I don't know, from what is today Maine down to maybe maybe DC, what it the Chesapeake No that's just a small portion of these colonies. And Pussia has an army of three hundred thousand men. Britain has an army of like fifty thousand men at this point. A lot of them in Ireland, which is itself in a near rebellious state most of the time Actually, yeah on per, Britain's got lots of troops, but doesn't have anything like the amount troops you'd need to Town by town and stick a little union flag up the flagpole and leave a bunch of guys there. to and then move on to the next place. You know that is that requires massive manpower Yeah. So So yeah, Britain's got an advantage straight awayay but British people hope, the Brit planners hope that what they can do is just put the navy up and down the east coast, blockade all these places like Charleston and Rhoda and Providence and New York and Boston. and then the provincials just are remind of their loyalty to the British crown and decide to But if that doesn't happen, Britain does have a problem. You' got to put boots in the their own, you got to put a lot First turning point, Siege of Boston, april seventeen seventy five to march seventeen seventy six Following their victory at Lexington and Concord, the British troops are garrisoned in Boston Colonial troops besieged them for eleven months Jonathan, what are the revolutionary Forces's tactics during that siege Well it's Try to use small blows to make a statement wherever you can. Remember Washington's working with an army that is under Critical shhortages, you know, Dan talks about the shortages of manpower for the crown forces. Washington's facing the same thing. He can't even keep track of where his troops are day to because half of them go home to tend their crops because this idea of serving a long standing army, a thing we've been taught is very, very bad. It's part of our British tradition. That's another reason why the British army is not ever going to be large because I guess you guys had some problems with the king using the army for bad things. I don't know. S some guy Cromwell came along small history there. But this is very much a thing that is inherited by the Americans. There's not this idea that, yes, we're going to have long serving armies You mentioned Lexington and Concord earlier as an as an example of success and also Boston Well the problem here is that it's a false measure of success. Lexington and Concord is a one in a hundred thousand chances that you get that exact scenario happening precisely where it did. sureure. you have Massachusetts being prepared more than any other colony to be able to fight this type of war. And then that ability peopleople just think, oh, we can duplicate that anywhere. Well, no, you can't duplicate a culture of one hundred and fifty years of independent mindedness and military tradition. And then the other piece Is say yes, Washington is dealing with an army that's got about thirteen rounds per man and the siege of Boston. So you have to make little little raids here and there, but ultimately, Washington would love a large scale assault to seize Boston, which is simply not practicable. H His commanders tell him, hey, boss, you do this. You're going to stack up bodies like Cord wouldood.ure. And it's going to be Henry Knoxs bringing over the artillery over the Berkshire Mountains through those horrible swamps, awful terrain in the dead of winter to place artillery over on Dorchester Heights overlooking Boston. And so Washington gets a win, but it's not the win that he wants because no one respects a siege win. People respect the bloody battle, the pitched battle the outmaneuvering your enemy, forcing them to flee inloriously before you. and that's not what he gets And so he has to now think about what are how do I fight this war at the next battle in New York happens I've always wondered what happens when they leave Do the British go back and say, okay, so that didn't work out very well? No we need to reconnoitter here And that's going to lead to a lot of ships in New York Harbor. That's right And you know, Jonathan's being very modest here. I don't want to do his job for him, but I mean, Washington I think does brilliantly here and they chase the British. They humiliate the British Right the beginning of the war. This is just Britains p reinforcements into this town to bring Massachusetts back to state of Subjugation to the Crown law And here they are the people of Massachusetts and other New Englanders and led by a man from Juniia, George Washington strangled Boston. They forced the Brits to leave because of the shadow of the big cannon overhanging the city Loyalists have left with them. conditions are tough, like the Brishrmy's starving. It's desperately rounding up cows, everyveryone's laughing at it This is just this is brutal And so yeah, they head off to Halifax and then they think, you know, we need to go somewhere. We think there's plenty of loyalists in New York. We like the harbor in New York. We It's a much better It's a much more sustainable place. there's it's easy to get food and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, they end up sending a big old fleet New York Hub. And this is where I think If we want to play this game, I think the Brits come nearest achieving pretty good results this campaign have well, I'm sure we'll get onto it, but I think this is the bit where I think the Brits are let down by by their leaders and this people, but I'm sure we'll talk about that These are warning signs. Do you think the British were spooked at all at this point, Dan? I think the British definitely spooked And in fact British commanders are writing home going We got we got a serious problem out here. The locals do not want us here And it's not just a band of troublemakers. It is very widespread feeling. We've kind of we've lost control of the hinterland. We lost control. So, you know, we can control a port or two. We we can't actually we can't We've lost control the countryside. And we and you need a huge manpower to get this back And the politicians are like, pull yourselves together it's a bunch of farmers. But they have demonstrated that The colonials have a certain will and determination to do what they want to do here We have strengthened the authority of that institution, that Congress that is so controversial suddenly sort of congeals, gets some authority behind it And George Washington has emerged. They have a central leader. This is not good for the British No, this is not good. This is the Americans are on their way to building a state on their way to building an army and a Marine Corps and a Navy. I mean is this is bad news. This is not just a provincial rebellion. But this is also a paper lion in many ways, right? Jonathan? I mean, Bunker Hill was not a win. Lexington Concord was w in the retreat, you know? That's where they did the damage. Oh Lexon and Concord is a great win. What are you talking about? This is utterly pulverizing an entire punitive expedition. Dving it back fleeing and todrawing to Lexington Bunker Hill, you know, it's a British victory. That's a clear win, right? You know,'ve taken some ground at the cost of ten percent of the officers in the British Army. But You know, it's pretty catastrophic fighting that shows, I think it shows that the war is going to be long and it's going to be bloody and you're not going to get a quick victory by parading troops through towns in order to show the might of the British Empire. I think we're also forgetting we're being very Boston or New England or east Coast centric. Remember, America has also just done a thing in Quebec The American Army in the fall of seventeen seventy five launches a two pronged invasion of Canada that seizes Montreal and but for you know, a very untimely whiff of grapeeshot that blows Richard Montgomery into little bits outside the walls of Quebec City might have even taken Quebec City as well. And then you would be left with the situation of what on earth do you do with this fourteenth colony? and how do you defend Canada? I think honestly, it's probably good that the colonials are forced out of Canada in the spring of seventeen seventy six because otherwise you're just pouring more and more troops into this sort of black hole a little bit akin to what the British will do in the South p seventeen seventy eight. So there's a lot going on in the theater and it's showing that, hey, yeah, this is a ragtag, but they all just mounted an invasion that had a genereral Guy Carlton fleeing for his life up to Quebec City from Montreal. and now the British are not only have to contend with, hey, how do we put down this these rebellious colonies in New England, but how do we get one of our own col Loyal colonies back. Yeah, but then they'd build a little fleet and chase Benedict Arnold down Lake Champlain Sinkingat M Donald stings right back with his little fleet that he built out of nothing, but some hopes and dreams in Massachusetts sailors. All right. We're going launch over vast territory here To july seventeen seventy six, the Declaration of Independence, a hugely pivotal moment In the school textbooks and in the media, we have this kind of image of all the founding fathers standing together lit by candlelight, gathered around a piece of parchment as you know the whole image wasasn't really this way at all, was it, Jonathan? No, I mean, it was very public For one thing, If you're going to have a rebellion, you know, you got to do some specific things in public and very openly. takes place and as with every every good, you know, Constitutional Cvention, Philadelphia stupidly hot dececlaration planning Philadelphia stupidly hot. I just can imagine that all these rooms stank to high heaven of all these perspiring would be politicians The I think the critical piece of the decoration is how rapidly it is disseminated Hm after they wrangle over what it's going to be and it is there's a lot of wrangling. There's there's a Jefferson originally has a piece in there. You know, if you look at the grievances of of the colonies to the crown, which is what the declaration really is. Hey, here's the why of what we're doing They're saying, hey, you're doing this, you're doing this, you're doing this, we don't like it. We feel like our rights are being trampled. And then there's contentions, as I said, you know the colonies are going to fight each other. So there's a bit in there about, hey British are forcing the slave trade upon us. And South Carolina is like, wait a minute, hang on. Nope, takeake that one out and that one will We'll revisit that in eighteen sixty one They So after all that is ironed out and then it is pushed out rapidly to the Continental Army, to the arrmy itself. to there are readings of the Declaration of Independence in New York City where Washington hasn' it read to the Continental Army there at Fort Ticooroa, on notount Independence, at all these critical places where the troops are, it is explained to native allies. It is this mass effort to cause an information win that is something that I don't think the British or saw was how this was going to be used to turn the narrative against against specifically the crown, George III. This is treason. This is an actason Donia Dan run its treason and we're still upset about it. Por George III comes up. I mean the list of grievances against George III and the Declar of Iependence is deranged. But anyway, we don't have to dwell on that. but I think You know and Jonathan mentions what's going on New York at the same time there's this campaign New York that I'm super into at this almost my key moment of the American Revolutionary War And the British commanders in New York are a little bit hesitant, a little bit cautious. George Washington gets a little bit lucky, maybe once or twice to the weather and you get the so called, you know the them the miracle of when they're When they manage to evacuate troops from Long Island, they manag to evacuate troops from Manhattan. each time the Brits just keep failing to kind of put Washington in the bang, just get that army capture it, destroy it Now I'm not sure it would have made a huge difference, but could have If you lose the main field army of the Rebellion of the Revolution of this young now young Republic then maybe that would have made a difference. So there's a moment here, I think where the Brits could have pulled it off But like I say, these British commanders a little bit flat footed. Yeah, right. So Jonathan, the final statement on the declaration basasically is a piece of propaganda is a negative word, but I mean, it is that kind of thing. And people don't really take that into consideration how important it was to get the message out not only externally to foreign powers but also internally Well, and it's also it gives a purpose for the war because remember I say this a lot, but the action the events of April, may, seventeen seventy five and even in June, you know, all the way up through the Olive branch petition where the where Congress says, hey, King George, you know, we could I don't know. Maybe come to an agreement, patch these things up All of this is not no there's no widespread movement saying, oh, yes, we are going to be a united and independent American entity And that is what the Declaration is doing. It is taking this thing that was probably so far outside people's minds in April of seventeen seventy five and making it a reality rapidly. that is one really just one year and a few months from the beginning of hostilities to a full movement for independence. And yes, it shores up one side. It also creates a very firm dividing line down the middle. Either you are for independence or you are not. and if you're not for independence, you are with the enemy. talk a lot about the sort of numbers involved on who was loyalist, who is patriot, et cceta, etcetera. I also don't like those terms because I'm pretty sure all the loyalists la themselves as very good patriotic Britons Really you've got about thirty percent of the population going for independence, thirty percent loyalists and thirtycent to forty percent Holy in the middle just trying to survive. which is why you have these British commanders who are so frustrated when they go into a town and everyone pulls out a union jack and says, yeay, George III. And then they go, all right, cool, we've got this space and then they march on and then those people will immediately sell supplies to the rebels or send drafts off to the Continental Army or support the militia And you've got everyone from Corn Wallace to Burgoyne to S Henry Clinton to How who packs it up in seventeen seventy seven, seventeen seventy eight. He's just like, I'm sick of this. I'm going home. All these British commanders who can't actually grasp the problem on the ground, which is It is very difficult to defeat an idea and a popular will. It's very easy to defeat an army. Which how does Burgoyin and Clinton and Cornwallis all defeat Tactically defeat rebel forces. Sure, but it doesn't matter Well, within the year following the Declaration of Independence does not go well for the Continental Army with the exception of perhaps the Battle of Princeton There's a lot of nooks and crannies there, but we head towards the middle of seventeen seventy seven and the Battle of Saratoga, which I think is fair to say is the next huge pivotal point. when things could have gone a lot differently than they did. Dan, we have talked many times about Saratoga. It is a complex event But what are the headlines of this? The headlines are that the plan was very, very complex, as you say, Now it was hugely ambitious, probably overly ambitious. But then again, there are examples in North America whether it's in seventeen sixty in the French Indian War, or whether it's As Jonathan talks about in the American Asault on Montreal in seventeen seventy five, there are examples of big bodies of men moving across this very difficult landscape and all getting to the right place at the right time This is not one of those examples. Brits, they have this smart idea which is they're going to maybe try and just to divide, just create a firewall Trouble the New England is the real problem here And the middle colonies the southern colonies Maybe a little tory, then maybe a little more relaxed about the idea of the British emmire. Some truth in that I did And they thought what we need to do is just build a wall between these two groups So we've got let's get a force moving down from Canada addvancing south towards Albany down that great invasion corridor that' seen so many armies marching to and fro over the Over the decades We're got an army marching from Lake Ontario. east towards Albany. So that's another prong coming in from Lake Cntario coming towards Albany And then we get a force moving up from New York where we've captured New York and parts New Jersey. So they come d nth up the Hudson Valley And so from three different directions, we kind of arrive at Albany and we cut off New England from the rest of the colonies The problem is none of those forces do what they're supposed to and none of them arrive at the right time and none of the commanders do they're supposed to. Be Because of bad leadership? A little bit of bad leadership, a little bit of just logistics in the eighth century. tough boots fall apart, everyveryone gets sick, a lot of food, and then a bit of resistance by the Americans. I'm not doing them down here What is supposed to be a three way attack ends up with one po force coming down from Canada and finding itself completely outnumbered at the end of a hideous supply route dealing with far too many defenders outside Albany in a place called Saratoga and the Brits know they're in big This is the first big surrender, right? of any kind of Yeah, it is. Thanks, Dond. it is. It's a great own goal. It's a great. It's a great own goal because it's the British You know it's White Ho's job to oversee a cohesive warplace The problem is they approve every plan that they're given, including the one where how in New York says, oh, actually, I'm not marching north. I'm marching south to Philadelphia. Yes. Burgoyne knows this. Everyone knows this. and Burgoyne goes, yep, o, okay, I'll meet you in Albany A and B are not leading to C. They're they're doing A to F to Z and it's I honestly have massive sympathy for these poor British troops because they're doomed from the start by one of the most colossally poor oversights of planning on the British perspective. Don't approve all the plans Don't leave it up to commanders to choose their own adventure, if you will when it comes to strategy making. Gives a great showcase for the crazy Benedict Arnold to run around on his horse in shot. He's impressive at this point. But I think and once we've got this battle at Saratoga, again, you see this problem for the Brits that yes, they do tend to perform better in battles in the American Revolution War When the Americans are well led, when they are supplied, and particularly when they are the advantages of ground or defens They can fire musket vllies that are as vicious as anything the British will come up against in Europe. And so you can't assume as the British tell me that you are just going to grind forward and disperse this group of amateurs. And actually I think at Saratoga, the Brits find themselves repelled by very impressive American infantry tactics. And so that is to their credit as well Jonathan, the upshot of this really is the French getting interested in joining this war. It's not just It's not a done deal. This could be an advantage for them backing this arming, right Yeah, it's Saratoga, but then it's also the survival of Washington's army following Brandywine You know, he goes from a defeat at Brandywine on the defensive to a tactical defeat in Germantown where he's on the offensive. This is an army mounting an offensive after a defeat. That is a resilience. and not just in surviving these battles and then forcing what Germantown does, it forces how to keep his army inside Philadelphia. He can no longer move around the countryside. It's a thing that I think we don't see a lot when we look at just strict wins and losses. The French see, a captured army in New York. thenen they see a penned up army in Pennsylvania and they're going, okay, you guys are demonstrating enough that you have You have the French crown very much have a policy of We don't really want to get heavily involved, but we would really love to bleed our traditional enemy as dry as possible. Was this just vengeance for the French and Indian War just Frenched Indian word Dany you want to talk about how long this, I don't know if you know about this driving. We've got going on this island of ours, but we' got these neighbors called the French and it goes back a fair way actually. So yeah, but then sixty six in all them. Yeah, exactly. So there's been particularly since sixteen eighty eight, sixteen eighty nine the Brits and the French fought something follow some historians who call it the Se hundredundred Years W You get the Nine Years War, you get the warar of Spanish succession. ye. You get the warar of Austrian succession. You get the French inu war, the seven yearsars War, You get the American Revolutionary War, Th then you get the French revolion, Th then you get them the Napoleon. And it ends and it's really a battle in some ways for kind of global hegemony just to get the World War one again get. exactly. Well, then then' then we're buddies again. And it ends, I need not tell you with British cavalry watering their horses in the Sine and the Duke of Wellington bedding Napoleon's mistress But anyway, it but it is This is just part of this century long struggle and it goes on in India and it goes on in the Caribbean, it goes on So the French are looking to take on the Brits wherever the Brits show weakness. They'll fight the Brits in Ireland. They'll fight the Brits in Ilandia they'll fight the Brits in West Africa, but at this time, it looks like the Britits are in a whole world of trouble on the east coast of America and the French are happy to send usket and they're going to go to bankrupt themselves doing it. That is a problem for later. They will bank up. But you mentioned the Spanish, Jonathan. They get involved. mostost Americans don't even know about that. They get involved. I mean, it's not to the same extent as the French. The Spanish have lost very heavily. They are going to eventually enter the war after France on the condition of the famous condition always is we want Gibraltar back. You know, They're not going to get it. Spain's contribution to the war is rocky. They demonstrate that they are still great a part of the great power competition. They are still part of this great game, as it will later be called don't demonstrate that they have this political will to openly support the Americans other than beyond sending some arms, a little bit of money, and then a small expedition through Florida and modern day Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana And so what you really have with Spain is another fleet. The addition of Spain's fleet into the war. And then also the Dutch and the Dutch come in heavily with money. The Dutch are floating massive loans to the Americans, which willll be nice enough to to sort of overlook the fact that we absolutely screw them on the backe end and don't pay anybody back. But this is again, these are items for the future. but from the British perspective, you now have, I think, probably what no one in Britain wanted in seventeen seventy five, which is all of a sudden, you have a worldld warar again. You just had a world war. You're trying to figure out how to pay for the last one Because know, William Pitt wrote a blank check to the colonies to do whatever they wanted. and and they took him at his word and they did. And now here we are with massive British debt and another war. And the worst thing about World War is you' fighting with our allies. And Winston Churchill said, the only thing worse than fighting with allies is fighting with our allies. And so this is For all that my fellow Brits and we like to talk about the British E emmpire, we like talk about great British military successes. Nearly all of them have been achieved. The big the big important ones have been achieved as part of coalitions, B, big coalitions That's been Britain's secret sourcece. And now the most unsuccessful war in British history is the American Revolutionary War when it's fighting absolutely on its own This episode is brought to you by Best Western Hotels and Resorts Summer is upon us. And you know what that means Vacation Whether you've been planning it for months or you're ready to pack a bag and go on a whim, having a place you can rely on makes every trip feel that much easier That's where B Western comes in From scenic road trips to spontaneous adventures abroad You'll find welcoming stays wherever you land So you can focus on making memories, not managing the details This summer get one thousand bonus points and a chance to win two hundred fifty thousand bonus points. So wherever you're headed, make the stay part of the trip. and make it count with this limited time offer Life's a trip Make the most of it at bestwestern. com No additional purchase necessary for swweeps. See bonus points, terms and conditions, and sweeps rules for details. And visit bestwestern d. com for complete terms and conditions everver wondered what it feels like to be a gladiator, facing a roaring crowd and potential death in the Coliseseum Find out on the Ancients podcast from History Hit Twice a week Join me, Tristan Hughes as I hear exciting new research about people living thousands of years ago, from the Babylonians to the Celts to the Romans, and visit the ancient sites which reveal who and just how amazing our distant ancestors were That's the ancients from History hit We're moving on from the Declaration of Independence as a pivotal moment, which really demonstrated the resilience of the colonists willing to Fight through failure I'm hearing from you. Saratoga is probably the biggest pivotal moment. We'll have to make this decision at the end, but Definitely a huge moment of pivot when Not only have the Americans won the battle, but also they've brought in foreign powers to fight them. They've made allies So let's again, move forward towards the end here towards Yorktown With French support and money, it feels very much that by seventeen eighty one, victory for the Americans is in the cards Our final turning point comes with the last showdown Bown is under siege from September to october, seventeen eighty one Washington's regiments joined by four thousand five hundred French soldiers under the Marquit de Lafayette to seventeen thousand on land, Yorktown is under siege from September to october, seventeen eighty one Washington's regiments are joined by four thousand five hundred French soldiers under the Marquita Lfayette That makes a total of seventeen thousand on land. faced off against eight thousand Brits French Admiral Francois Joseph dee Gras and his fleet are in the Chesapeake, preventing the escape of Cornwallis and the British Army. and reinforcement by the British Navy. On september the fifth, the French take a victory over a British fleet in the Battle of Chesapeake And it's clear Cornwallis's troops have no chance of escape or reinforcement. troops suffer from disease, dwindling supplies, and casualties. October seventeenth, the drummer and officer signal surrender Negotiations take place on the eighteenth And the official surrender ceremony occurs on the nineteenth. Cornwallace does not attend, citing illness British Brigadier General Charles O'Hara surrenders to Washington's second in command. Major General Benjamin Lincoln by handing him his sword This is such a pivotal battle in the Revolution. What state are things in for the British at the time of Yorktown Well it's just it's this little problem, which is the British army can move around America, sometimes carried by ships, this overwhelming maritime strength. Other times they'll march, they'll march up through the Carolinas into Virginia The problem is that every time they go somewhere and they liberate somewhere or they They get the Union flags out, as Jonathan says, and the crowds all come out and say, okay fine, King George, we're back The minute they leave town likeike the Viet Cong in Vietnam or like the Taliban, I guess in Afghanistan. The patriots, the rebels just drift back in and reassert their control. So So you end up with marching this big distance and British armies march all the way into this part of Virginia And they haven't got money to show for it. What they then try and do is they do whatever. British They do exactly what British arrmies have always done. They just look towards the coast and be like, where the hell is the Navy We We need the Navy here. So and they do that. They York toown's on the coast and they build a they're not going to the Navy because of the French. Well, this is the killer fact, Don. this is an absolute disaster. They've built this for and they settle down normal normal service resume. Here we are on the coast. We get the Navy bringing supplies in food more powder and shot and reinforcements Then the unimaginable happens. mean, this is very difficult for me to talk about really, but the French Navy turn up in an astonishing and lucky and skillful and remarkable bit of coordination that crosses two continents and several months The French Navy turn up in force inclusive battle off in the Chesapeake Bay British retreat afterwards to go and repair their ships. So it's actually a defeat for the British. And for the, you know, this astonishing new experience for the Brits They find themselves sandwiched between an enemy force, the Americans and the French who are besieging them in Yorktown and a French fleet out at sea and the Brits do not like this situation. Jonathan, tell me about the American side of things at this point Washington is What is its aims its strategic goals So he's trying to coordinate with this, you know, he's trying to take advantage of this new alliance, the seventeen seventy eight reaty of Alliance and Amity with France to be able to make ao a joint combined attack. What he would really love to do in his heart of hearts is seize New York, get that festering insult away from him, get this thing that he's been carrying around with him. The loss of New York, I think really really, really feels And there's been attempts to coordinate continontental forces with the French Army and Navy. You've got an attempt in Savannah that ends terribly. You've got an attempt in Rhode Island that doesn't end well. You have a lot of failure And I think that's important to emphasize is you have a lot of failure, a lot of disappointment and a lot of mistrust building on both sides. From the American side, I don't know if we can trust these guys to show up when we need them. And from the French side is, I don't know if we can trust these guys to fight when we show up. There' So there there's a lot of tension that is going into this relationship, which makes seventeen eighty one that much more impressive. What the Americans are dealing with fundamentally is honestly a gift, which is But in seventeen seventy eight, the British turned to the south. They say we're wriding off the main colonies, we're writing off doing then We'll do some stuff there. We'll keep our main forces in New York, but we are going to attempt a southern strategy. We are going to win the American South. We will have a limited victory. We will keep the South, the more lucrative colonies, and you know those dumb rebels in the North arere intractable and poor and cheap anyway, those dumb Yankees We can live without them. And this is a gift because this is where British manpower is pouring into And they're able to combat this with a relatively the Continentals and the militia, the state troops are able to combat this with a relatively low number of troops. So by seventeen eighty one, this weird assortment of continontinentals and militia in the Carolinas have essentially caused Cornwallis to give up in frustration, to throw his hands up and say, I've beaten you everywhere. In every battle I pursue you, I keep trabbing across rivers and I'm running out of boats and my men are destroyed, my horses are starving. I have to go refit in Yorktown where he even before that, he attempts to destroy a force of about four thousand under Lafayette which eventually ends up pinning him on the Virginia Peninsula And so this's this incredible combination of British strategic mishap, I would say or unable to read the situation properly and this unparalleled moment in space and time where you get Washington, Rochambeau and Dgras able to actually come in the C dest Stang, able to come to the table and say, yes, we are going to attempt this to move across an entire multiple theaters of war to converge in one space in time. Most of the troops for that I think a lot of people don't understand, most of the continental and French troops almost all of them for the siege of Yorktown began in New Hampshire, Rhode Island and New York. Yeah, right There's only a couple thousand under Lafayette that have been sort of scrapping it out in Virginia. And so this is just this incredible feat to concentrate rapidly at that right moment, as Dan said, at this moment, where the British are going, o, wait, we don't have naval superiority. What is that? I mean, that's like telling the American Army today that, hey, you have to fight without air superiority That causes everything in my body to clinch up and' what we' hide in the little hole couldould they have come back after Yorktown, do you think? the British? Yeah. No, no. No, the Yorktown was a catastrophe, another army, a second entire army surrenders just utterly If have something like eight thousand men It would involve raising another army to send And I think people had they'd worked out that these army had nothing was it wasn't like, oh, we were doing so well before the army got captured. it's just stalemate at best You're fighting a global war that the Spanish are, you know, the other interests around the world you want to defend And the British have no option, you know, the British British credit is under attack. The British government is Br is still, you know, it's not a dictatorship. The British government is very shaky at this point. Parliament are doubting the strategy. So Lord North, who's the prrime Minister, his Grip on power will soon come to an end. We're going to have three prrime ministers in one year after this if you can believe that, which we only have in the gravest of crises like a couple of years ago And so Yorkown is a symptom of just a gigantic failure to come to terms with how to pay for, how to bring the Americans back to their obedience. In a way, Yorktown puts the Brits out of their misery because it's so decisive that they just go, look, we can't do this. It's really a statement on how overextended they were Yeah. We haven't got them. we can't send another army. So we can keep this going and sit in New York and sort of just exchange pot shots with the Americans or or we can just This Gordon knot we can cut off this disease limb And we can get back then what we want to do, which is defend our valuable sugar producing islands in the Caribbean from the French, defend our possessions in India, defend our pos you know, Gibraltar, all those kind of things. And yep, it's super sad you know, the Brits, they've secured Canada. so you know, maybe they just maybe they lose the thirteen colonies. You' got the lumber. They got the lumber in Canada. You know, what's the best it's gonna to happen Th those little thirteen colonies? Aaple syrup. Well, you tell me exactly about syrup And beaver skin hats. yeah. You know, I'm sure thoses little thirteen colonies they'll never come to it. they'll find, they'll squabble among themselves. They'll be back. They'll be back Surprisingly, sporadic fighting does continue after this. There's a couple years here until this Treaty of Paris is signed Jonathan, it seems interesting to me as Americans. We celebrate the fourth of July, the Declaration of Independence, but we don't really celebrate the Treaty of Paris. It's weird isn' it? Th third of Sept I mean, it's weird only from the perspective of actually asking Americans to look with a realistic light upon their own history What's more popular?, well, we manifested our own destiny into existence, taking it to borrow a phrase that will come later on in American politics, but this idea that, oh, well, we did it on our own, we willed it to happen. It's like Lexington Concord, it was the embattled farmer who stood up and made this happen. No, it was fought as in all American wars are always fought and won, which is with allies, which is very difficult for us to admit. It is fought by a mixture of professional forces and part time forces. Today we would have the regular Ary Army Rerve and the Army National Guard and it's fought by drafting individuals. So by the end, the Continental Army is drafting people. It is forced service because that is how you keep armies in the field and how you win wars. All of this doesn't make for really good hand clapping, you know, yay, America. feelings So yes, we celebrate the july fourth because otherwise we would have to say, yeah, we owe our independence. probably mostly to friend. We are very good storytellers, very good at building our own mythology too this day as a matter of fact everver wondered what it feels like to be a gladiator, facing a roaring crowd and potential death in the Coliseseum Find out on the Ancient podcast from History Hit Twice a week Join me, Tristan Hughes, as I hear exciting new research about people living thousands of years ago Babylonians, to the Celts, to the Romans, and visit the ancient sites which reveal who and just how amazing our distant ancestors were That's the ancients from History Hit D on this side of things What's the There's a whole empire to build. I mean, I know. You've got plenty of work going on over here. Speaking of stories, this is the strange thing about the American Revolution at was. It's the most disastrou war in British history And what happens over the next forty years is one of the most gigantic expansions of. power you know, in the history of the world it's It's very weird. so There's an industrial revolution happening in Britain, which will give it huge advantages going into the nineteenth century. So its economy is absolutely, it's on fire. It's going through one of the most important events in human history, this industrial revolution that starts in Little Old England And so although the loss of America is a catastrophe And although there's a world in which Britain and North America go on being one great big imperial state and maybe fused together as a nation state someimes in the future. That's very interesting world, but it's not one we live in But what does happen is Chaos in chaos in Britain Political chaos. Huge existential crisis. What are we doing here? We've got no money. It's a disaster Under the surface, there's enormous dynamism and excitement going on with Britain's economy. G amazing things are happening And then France totally impeactly. The French revolut is, as you pointed out, of to a large extent because of the vast amount of money they spend in the American. Revolutionary War and then the money they spend after that trying to still trying to catch up with the British fleet And so Britain is drawn into this ennormous war in Europe, There's enormous wars in Europe