Founding Ideals and Future Celebrations

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK The CIA has been carrying out covert operations around the world for decades. How has it shaped how people feel about the US I'm Amahhad. And I'm Tristine Redman and together we host the global Story podcast from the BBC As part of our series to mark the United States' two hundred fiftieth birthday, we're exploring the CIA's hidden history Do you think the word of the United States will be trusted in years to come For more, check out the global story on bc. com or wherever you get your podcast How did a ballerina build one of the most controversial companies in finance? This week on Good Bad Billionaire Luanna Lopez Lara, the youngest self made female billionaire on the planet. Her company, Kalhi, lets you trade on anything from elections to the weather, to war. Supporters say it predicts the future. Critics say it could undermine democracy. So is she a visionary? O has she turned the whole world into a casino? Good Bad billionaire Listen wherever you get your BBC podcasts Hello, it's Anthony, and you're about to hear Americast and we're delighted to have you with us. And if you enjoy what you hear, please do consider subscribing to the podcast. That way you'll never miss an episode. Now. onn with today It is two hundred and fifty years since that pivotal year, that year that thirteen American colonies declared independence from Great Britain, seventeen seventy six The year that everything changed. everything changed for them, for the actual people doing the signing. everythingverything changed of course on that continent, but also everything changed, you could argue for the whole world. So here is the question Has it been a success? Has the American experiment succeeded or failed Where is the jury out Welcome to Americast Americast from BBC News. You hear that ch? I When I hear that sound, it reminds me of money. We didn't start this war, but under President Trump, we are finishing it. This is a big cover up and this administration is engaged in it. This guy has Trump arrangement syndrome. This for you. T the volume up Hello, it's Justin in the worldwide headquarters of Americaast in London, England And it's Anthony in the American headquarters of Americast here at the BBC Bureau in Washington, DC. And we can get straight to our subject because listening to us and on the line is Heathercox Richardson. Heathercox Richardson is prorofessor of history at Boston College used to teach at MIT. She's published a load of books about American history. She's got a substack. She's been a very prolific person on substack. for many years. She's got three million subscribers, which is going something. She's also got this two hundred and fifty to two hundred and fifty projects. So this is a series of YouTube videos that look at specific moments, characters in the history of the US. So Heather, thank you for talking to us. Welcome to Americast. It's a pleasure to be here Can I start with a really simple question and a positive question because I think we need to be positive or I want to be positive about America on its two hundred fiftieth birthday. And it's this question, what is there to celebrate? What should be celebrated? What can be celebrated Well, what can be celebrated today is what we have always celebrated is the ability of individual people to determine their future and to determine the government under which they live. And for all the terrible things that are happening in the United States right now, what you are seeing is a rebirth of that sense of agency and the desire to create a better nation There was something that Barack Obama quote he liked to always cite. and that was about the arc of history bending towards justice. And I think there are a lot of people on the left when Obama was elected president who felt that was true. Some of you who had been covering my campaigns know this is one of my favorite expressions was doror King's expression The arc of the moral universe is long, but it be stores justice We have to believe that ultimately, justice will prevail Do you think now at the two hundred fiftieth anniversary with Donald Trump in office that people on the left still feel that or do you think that there's a disillusionment with the direction of the country Well a couple of things. First of all, I'm really careful about the way we use the term the left here because of course, the left actually is an embrace of a kind of political economy that would destroy liberal democracy. And the United States of America really has never had a lot of people who are firmly in that camp So what you're really talking about are those people who we used to refer to as the liberal consensus, those people who are trying to shore up American democracy. And what's interesting, I think, and I can't speak for other people. I'm speaking as an observer of what's happening in American politics. What is interesting in this moment are certainly the people who say that's it We're done, it's time to hang up our spurs And the people who say, you know We're in a really hard moment, but we understand that we have the agency to change that moment. And one of the things that you are seeing is the rise of a reexamination of people like Barbara Jordan, who in nineteen seventy four was one of the people who really held the Republican' feet to the fire to impeach Richard Nixon. Or you're seeing the real celebration of those people who stepped forward in hard times in a way that we haven't for a long time. And part of that as well, I think, speaks to how many people are interested in history again for in a way that they haven't been for a long time I'm fascinated when you talk about the idea of those who are on the left being still supporters of the liberal project that is the United States. because one of the suggestions and this was made some time ago by Richard Rorty, the wonderful philosopher who I think is now dead, but he wrote this book called Achieving Our Country quote from James Baldwin The idea was the Baldwin idea, Baldwin, of course an African American gay in a time when that wasn't allowed either, or certainly wasn't socially acceptable, and at a time when Jim Crow still existed, still suggesting to Americans that the country was achievable. The things that were promised originally two hundred and fifty years ago could be achieved by everyone in it. And Richard Rghty's point being a decade or so ago, notot sure that people on the left are fully signed up to the Liberal project anymore. In other words, they don't believe anymore that the country is achievable. when you hear the rhetoric of some on the progressive left as they style themselves now. He's got a point, doesnn't he Yes, but those people don't speak for a majority of the American people. And one of the reasons that I make that distinction between the left and the liberal consensus is because the American political project has swung so far to the right that one of the points I'd like to make in this moment is those people in the United States, for the most part. Now of course, because of the way our primaries work and because of the fact we're in this moment of political transition, everybody on both sides occasionally tosses up somebody that I know professionally as whack a doodles So, you know, we're going to put those out of the picture If you think about those people who are currently being called the progressive left or even D deemocratic socialists and calling themselves Democratic socialists Their policies are actually to the right of the Republican Party in nineteen fifty six So this idea that somehow they are this radical left when in fact, in the post World War two era, they would not have even been really, I mean, I guess you could say they would have been mainstream Republicans, but they would have been on the right of the Republican Party in the nineteen fifties. So Id just like to make that distinction because some of the things that they are calling for standing behind are actually really quite centrist in terms of the sweep of American history So just to drill down on that. what are the you're talking about I don't know, universal healthcare then or attitudes to racial equality Both of those things, Universal healthcare, of course, is proposed in the United States at first by Theodore Roosevelt in the early nineteen hundreds. We're not talking this is something modern and crazy And you know, we could talk about the history of that, But certainly Dwight Eisenhower was the president who gave us a cabinet level health and human serervices departments. So that idea of universal health carere, but even more than that, I'm always very interested in economics Do you know what the top tax bracket was in the nineteen fifties in America C ninety percent. Yeah. ninety two. ninety two. But I'm not hearing anybody say we need to go to a tax policy where the upper tax income bracket is ninety two percent. So you, but also there are more things that the Republicans did for in fifty six, the expansion of social security, the expansion of employment protections the expansion of the social safety net, you know, more making it easier for women and disabled Americans to work for comparable wages for the same wages as men. I mean, there's like all of these things that were in the nineteen fifty six Republican platform. The Democratic platform was had even more suggestions, but the Republican platform that now are simply not on the table in the United States. One of the things we've seen over the last twenty years or so is these big swings back and forth between Republican administrations, Democratic administrations, Republican congresses, Democratic congresses, and a kind of a sense by Voters on both sides that the system isn't working. They're frustrated. They throw the bumbs out, they bring in new people, they get frustrated with them. They throw them out. There historic parallels over the past two hundred fifty years where there has been that kind of thing where it seems like people are fed up with the whole system and neither party is doing enough to address their concerns Yeah, we look a lot like the first Gilded Age in this moment, but there is a real difference between the first Gilded Age in the eighteen eighties, eighteen nineties and nineteen oughts and this moment. And the real difference there is that we are seeing the endgame of a project to overturn the New deal, the New Deal government that President Franklin Delana Roosevelt ushered in in the nineteen thirties, and that then Republican presidents like Dwight Eisenhower expanded. And what that did, of course, is it made the modern American government much more active. Since the beginning, actually since the beginning, but really taking off in nineteen thirty seven, there was a project to overturn New deal government to get rid of business regulation, to get rid of the basic social safety net it established to stop government investment in infrastructure, to stop government protection of civil rights, and to make the United States walk away from the international rules based order. Is this movement away from the power of Congress and to the presidency The Congress becoming a dysfunctional body that isn't able to address people's concerns doesn't really pass legislature is mired in gridlock Is that Part of what's contributing to the American disaffection with their government now is it essentially Congress's fault to some extent Is this a particularly Ineffective Congress, Yes, this is historic. We have had at least one other Congress that was really not very didn't get very much done. It was under the Truman administration. But this one makes that one look superhuman compared to the fact that, you know House Speaker Mike Johnson, a Republican of Louisiana, keeps sending everybody home because he can't even get the Republicans on board to do anything because he's got that far right rump that simply says no to everything So we are in that moment where Congress is particularly ineffective, but I don't think it's the fault of Congress per se or the system per se So much as it is the abandonment by the Republican Party of this idea of checks and balances. And you can see that really dramatically in the Republicans in the Senate. What you see is them saying, we may not like this guy But we're sure not going to let a Democrat get into office because they're going to regulate us and they're going make us pay taxes So that's really the surprise there is the refutation of the central tenets of American democracy because of this ideology that has taken over the Republican Party since the nineteen nineties, but really getting established in the nineteen eighties Cards on the table, Heather, I really like America. I lived there for a decade. I have a child who's a U.S citizen U I felt when I lived there I felt nothing particular about it and to be perfectly honest, I came to America initially not because I was particularly interested in it, but because I lived in Brussels and it rained a lot and I wanted to go somewhere for the BBC that was a pleasant place to live. But I developed such an affection for it because there is something away from the politics, it seems to me, something in the air, something in the water America's Koo spirit does seem to me to differentiate you from pretty much anywhere else I've ever lived or visited. That's lovely to hear. I mean, as a historian, I could refute that in any number of ways. I will say I think that You know, the American people, you know, with all our exceptions, are pretty decent people. and are pretty decent to the people that they consider within their community And therein lies both a brilliant achievement and a terrible weakness because of the ability to manipulate that to create a political enemy But But we could talk again, about the great history of how Americans developed that idea as you say that can do spirit. But of course, Toqueville put it in democracy in America, that that's the heart of America. I'm not entirely sure I buy it, but I'm glad you found it. It'seresting that you don't entirely buy it, because why in that case So you're a skeptic on that. Why in that case? And I was asked this question the other day by someone and I wasn't fully able to answer her. I gave a very weedy answer that you will be able to give a much better one, or possibly you'll disagree with it completely. The question that I was asked is why has America been so successful? Why is it so mighty Why is it so incredible as a as a Force in the world. Whereas, I mean they were making a distinction between America and Canada or Australia or other kind of English speaking places around the world, or inde other nations actually. What is it about America that allowed it to dominate the last century and to a very great extent to dominate this century as well? What is the secret source? Well, so we have to start with resources, right? This continent has had extraordinary resources and people who live in the United States of America have been excellent at exploiting those resources. I mean, that, I think has to be the bottom line. I do think that one of the key aspects of America and the people who live in the United States of America, and I keep making that distinction because I'm talking about a political entity versus the geographic space, because of course, indigenous Americans have been part of that polity or have not been part of that polity in different times There is inherent in the United States a really powerful and profound tension And that is the tension on the one hand between people who believe that some people are better than others and that the power of the government should be used to protect property And those people who believe that everybody is created equal and the government should be used to make it possible for those people to be treated equally before the law, to have a say in their government and to have equal access to resources And that tension, which maps over gender, it maps over race, it obviously maps over class, has meant that America, and obviously, I can't speak for any other countries. I study America That has meant that the tensions that have made this country a terribly dark country at times, know, are lynching, our massacres of indigenous Americans. I mean, you and I could make this list go on and on is balanced by the opposite. Americans saying,, getting the upper hand when they want to promote equality and standing up for the right to vote, standing up for the expansion of rights. And to me, that's what the United States really is defined by. that tension between these groups of people, those who have rights and those who want rights and how they jockey to create a government. And that means that American democracy will never be finished It also means that American democracy will never be perfect because as I like to say, people are gonna people, right? We have good people and we have bad people. But what that has done, I think, is it has opened up a avenue for new languages and new ideas and new music and new innovation, new ways of living together, new philosophies in that tension that perhaps are less possible in places that have less fundamental tensions in their society. One of the things that we're celebrating now and you hear a lot of is celebrating America's founding and the founding fathers and how great America was from the get go. Was America a success from the start? Was it economically? Was it politically a success from the start? or was it something that was built over time I'm laughing because no, of course not. It was not a success from the start Because think about it I mean, what what the founders did was crazy You know, in seventeen sixty three They were really, really proud at the end of our French and Indian War. They were really proud to be members of the greatest empire in the modern era, right? They were really proud of their identity as Englishmen You know, that's that is something that they stood really strongly on. And by seventeen seventy six, they're declaring independence Wh is which is thirteen years, right The founders about how the real revolution was in men's minds, and they used the word men there, of course, although it was also women's as well, was in minds before the Revolutionary War, which is going to come onn the heels of that revolution after seventeen seventy six. But the idea that they are writing a decclaration of independence to the rest of the world, which is what it is. It's a letter to other countries in the world saying, Hey, we're not rebels There's actually a reason we're doing what we're doing and you should accept us as one of your own And they write this declaration and it starts with just this amazing decclaration of natural law. You know, we hold these truths to be self evident. We hold these truths to be self evident. that all men are created equal. They are endowed by their creator cen and alienable right that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness that to secure these rights goovernments are instituted among men deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends It is the right of the people to order or to abolish it and to institute new government. I mean, that's a mathematical formula. That's not, you know, you can't argue with that. these are self evidident All men are created equal. Well, what's going on with that? and that they are entitled to certain unalienable rights life liberty and pursuit of happiness. What a thing to say in seventeen seventy six. That is an enlightenment declaration that the natural laws in the universe are discoverable and that it is possible, as the Delaration goes on to say, to construct a government that is based in those universal laws, so long as people have the right to make their own government I mean, that is a crazy thing to say Tell us about your own celebration of july the fourth then Finally, Heather, what do you do? Because a lot of the concentration and the media concentrations and on the big events that are happening in DC Trump stuff and all the rest of it and the non Trump stuff as well. But actually it always struck me when I lived there that The real heart of the celebration of july the fourth, even when it's not the two hundred and fiftiet anniversary was was local I think that's right. And it always has been. and that's exactly the case here. I live on the coast of Maine in a tourist area So we get a ton of people. My entire extended family comes home for this weekend and you know, it's basically a non stop celebration, you're out on the water and so on and having dinners with people and it's sort of our our version, if you will, of Thanksgiving I will point out that I think this year is a little bit different than other years because we have such a fraught midterm election coming up in November And one of the things I think that has created sort of a dam that is now breaking is we many of us were expecting the federal government to do something the fourth of July. And then when it's turned out that there really has not been the sort of national celebration because the money that Congress appropriated for local and state celebrations got subsumed by Trump's own freedom two hundred fifty. What you've seen sort of in the last three weeks is a lot of individuals stepping up to the plate, well, like the two hundred fifty project we're doing, but stepping up to the plate to make their own celebrations. And it feels to me, and again, dont I'm a prophet of the past, not the future, that that is going to continue to roll forward into the rest of July. And these celebrations of the Declaration, what it means to be an American, you know I've seen a lot of people handing out constitutions. and it is my suspicion that we will see that sort of who are we question and the celebrations of who we are going into what is absolutely going to be a fraught summer and then roll into the midterm. So you know, somebody said to me, well, I really wish I'd gotten on this because I think that the fourth of July is too soon for me to do anything and then it's going to be over. It said that to me just in the next couple of days, and I said I actually don't think it is going to be over. I think we're going to celebrate the holiday as we always do, but those themes are perhaps going to continue to roll forward at least into November and with luck a little further Heather Cckx Richards and happappy Fourth of July and all the fourth of July'