Listener Perspectives on American Diversity

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Good Bad billionaire Listen wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Hello, it's Anthony, and you're about to hear Americast and we're delighted to have you with us. And if you enjoy what you hear, please do consider subscribing to the podcast. That way you'll never miss an episode. Now. On with today Stan in Brighton in the UK has been in touch. I was wondering Says Stan. Whether you could cover the recently approved Stratos data Center in Utah. As a UK listener, I find it equal parts fascinating and concerning that such a project has been approved. It would be great to hear your thoughts on it and the wider implications for the politics of the AI revolution in the US. Well, Stan, we're going to do exactly what you tell us to do as we always do And you are of course dead right. It is a massive, massive American story, and it's not actually much covered or maybe not covered as much as it should be. And it's not just in Utah. where that campus is apparently going to be sixty two square miles. But it's also all around the US So opposition is growing to these huge data centers right around the country, including New York, where a one year moratorium on large data centers has just been passed. So is the AI revolution changing the landscape of rural America? And if it is, can people stop it? Do they in large numbers wantant to Welcome to Americast. Americast from BBC News. You hear that Jen? I think when I hear that sound, it reminds me of money. We didn't start this war, but under President Trump, we are finishing it. This is a big cover up, and this administration is engaged in it. This guy has Trump arrangement syndrome. I have for you turn the volume up. Hello, it's Anthony in Washington, DC. And it's Justin in the worldorldwide headquarters of Ameracast in London, England. and we're going to be joined later onn't me Anthony by Robert Bryce, the energy journalist, friend of the pod who's written very extensively about data centers and AI and indeed studied them in extraordinary detail. But Anthony, there is no doubt at all, is there that they are worthy of being studied at the moment because again and again in state after state They matter They do. And it is local opposition. it's not just local opposition from the usual suspects, environmentalists, not in my backyard activists, but from conservatives from a broad spectrum of American politics at the local level who are objecting to these massive buildings that house computers and servers and various equment equipment to process AI computing for these big AI companies. and it's the local people who say it's taking too much resources, It's taking up too much space, their eye ss, and they also view possibly them having adverse health consequences for those who live by them. So it's a big issue here in the United States bigig in the UK No, weirdly it's not yet because we don't have them yet of anything like the scale. But of course we are also as the entire Western world, we're all looking along these lines that AI not only brings with it all sorts of and benefits to daily life, but also has to be kept going And you know the business of keeping it going does require huge amounts of energy. But of course, it's not just energy, is it, Anthony? And This is why it's such a big deal in the states. Yes, it's electricity and it affects electricity prices, etcetera. and some people think it keeps them artificially high and they want politicians to intervene. But it's also things like water, isn't it? I mean it's a pretty basic threat as a lot of local people see it to their way of life. Right, It sucks up a lot of water to keep all of this equipment cool. But AI is the hot thing right now, right? I mean, there have been people who have said that AI investment is keeping the US economy and the US stock market afloat that all this money pouring in in hopes of having big payoffs is the reason why The American economy has been able to push through some of these headwinds it's been facing. compompanies like Microsoft, Google, Ma, Oen AI, they're building these data centers to power their AI computing projects. And here's Sam Altman, he's the CEO of Open AI talking in Michigan about the construction of a data center there We know how complex of a project this is. We know what the current attitude towards data centers in the world is. I'll come back to this, but I think we can make this a great example for the future. This could very well turn into the site where cancer gets cured This could turn into the site where hundreds of millions of students around the world learn and get private tutoring, this could turn into the site where millions of small businesses can run their business with AI in the cloud Yeah, it's really interesting, isn't it? Be that's the push. And that's the promise that's dangled in front of people. And as you say, Anthony, it's also the promise of wealth more widely because I think it is actually literally true that growth in America at the moment mainly comes from AI and AI related growth and AI and A related optimism about the future. And it's huge and it really does matter. But in rural America, and bits of Texas, in North Virginia and kind of in parts of America where those things feel very remote And it's what is fascinating to me, Anthony, is not only do those things feel remote, but actually the politics of it is quite complex because the messages that are coming across are about the threat of something that is not necessarily a left right issue. and that's important Right. peopleople care about their local environment. even conservatives who may not consider themselves environmentalists care about whether the water in their homes is clean, whether the noise that these big data centers create, the buzzing sound that some people say they create because of all the energy being used, whether that disturbs their everyday life They're concerned about the electricity prices being driven up. They're concerned about falling property prices. If one of these big things drops right next to your house, your property value is probably going to go down because of all of these other things that we've been talking about. And so you have heard conservatives talk about this, particularly at the grassroots level And Democrats, liiberals talk about this Here's Alexandria Casia Cortez, a progressive left wing New York congressman. We've talked about her plenty of times in the past. She visited a town that had a data center in Georgia a few weeks ago came back here to Washington DC and spoke at a congressional hearing holding up a sample of the local water, she said families in the area are starting to see not only their water pressure decrease to your point about water availability But their appliancesop have all stopped working because it is decimating their water quality They now rely on bottled water to drink and prepare meals and nearby residents water bills are expected to increase by thirty three four percent. In fact I have a jar right here. This is the current drinking water in Morgan County, Georgia right after a data center was constructed, the only difference between The clean water and this wasas that data center I have another one. as well So this wasn't just one well This wasn't just one family's situation This is what the drinking water now looks like next to that data center And that's Georgia. The big one though, Anthony is Utah, isn't it? whichich is so big that it boggles the mind sixty two square miles. We always measure things in Britain, Anthony and the size of a football pitch or how many football pitches A thing is I don't know what sixty two miles is in football pictures, but it's a lot of football pictureses a lot is more than twice the size of Manhattan Island in New York, if that puts it in perspective. Obviously things, there's a lot of open space out west, but that is a massive construction project. and it will include dozens of data centers, research facilities, probably some housing was approved by county commissioners, but there was local backlash to it. peoplee were complaining about as we talked about the stress it could put on the local resources, what all this construction would mean for the environment. and it was moreore than double Utah's current electricity usage. The entire state of Utah. I mean that is insane That's amazing, isn't it Also that it's going to use a lot of water And they don't have a lot of water in Utah and quite regularly have droughts, don't they? It's a hypcale data center, isn't it, Anthony? and that word is important, isn't it? becausecause it's the hyperscalers. too go back to the economics of all of this If you're looking for organizations, companies that have done really well on the stock market and powering actually not in a way, not just the US economy, but to an extent The worlds at least stock market buzz it comes from hyperscalers, these companies that are pushing out huge investments in the hope that eventually there'll be a return. So if For instance, in Utah, it doesn't happen because people object It' not just, o will we just go and do something else? I mean, this is a real challenge, isn't it to an entire kind of industry models that is massively, massively funded at the moment, but you could see the funds just going away Right. And AI beyond just the impact of these data centers, there is a pushback against the whole idea of AI of what it is doing to global societies, what it could do to the job market for people who are being replaced by this technology. And so all of this is part and parcel of this kind of objection to it. The data centers on the ground But also if the dataenters were doing something great that people believed in like curing cancer the way Sam Altman promised, then maybe people would be willing to make those sacrifices. But when these dataenters are being used to advance something that is generally unpopular and not trusted by the American public, that makes it all the much harder. Let's listen to this A town haall meeting in Utah where they tried to explain what this data center was doing and the level of public concern that came up because of it Right, Well, it's not going entirely smoothly, is it? And It's worth pointing out, Anthony that the three commissioners actually had to leave the meeting, didn't they? They had to carry on online. And I suppose it's this classic thing, isn't it? There's always the case with planning disputes, but my goodness is the case massively now and all around America. If the person who benefits from the cure for cancer that Sam Altman was talking about is at the moment a emotional person. It's at some point in the future. The people who are the losers are not at all notional. They're real and they turn up to meetings. And that's the problem that the industry has, isn't it? I mean and it is a real problem for them. There's no doubt at all that as much as they rail against it and as much as they try to persuade people about future benefits, that they are really being challeng and as you were saying as well, Anthony, not just challenge from the left. We heard AOC, who is very much of the progressive left talking about that one in Georgia. but here's Tucker Carlson. Tucker Carlson from the right, some would say the far right, grilling Kevin O'Leary, who is a venture capitalist who's actually backing that Utah project My job is to Create a data center, create two thousand jobs for long term in ten thousand manufacturing at the beginning or construction. And I'm obviously looking at multiple sites and this won't be the last one I build may I ask two thousand jobs. Okay, so relative to the size the physical size of the project, which as you noted is multiple times the size of Manhattan, and the power draw at peak This data center, your projections, will consume about as much energy as New York City does, But New York City provides almost five million jobs And this project by your own description, would provide about two thousand jobs know I don't see you definitely got that calculation wrong. By building a data center that trains AI that provides productivity to the entire nation, we create millions of jobs paying jobs Job AI is going to create jobs Yeah I thought it was going to eliminate you. net. just think about The new technologies we don't even know yet that are going to be built off AI Everybody thinks when television came, everybody lose their job in radio. That was completeet And the same thing is going to happen here Okay, well, that's quite a wide variation of job predictions, isn't it, Anthony. Do we know, Do anyone who's properly looked at this stuff and done so dispassionately? canan anyone tell us what the truth is Brookings did a study specifically about data centers and the jobs that data centers create. and they found that roughly two thousand to four thousand additional jobs after six years comes from these institutions, these facilities. Counties usually once they get their first data center, they see total private employment go up by about fourcent to five percent over five to six years. wages, they do go up about three to four percent Not just for the new hires, but also for existing workers in those counties. But there's not a significant increase in home prices in counties that get data centers. So when you look at it narrowly focused to where these data centers are going in, small economic benefit. But then when you were listening to O'Leary there, he was talking about the millions of jobs that this could create Yeah. and exactly because his focus is completely different, isn't it? His focus is America writ large. And indeed the whole world writ large and what potentially AI can do in terms of improving productivity and thus wealth for everyone And you know, we just don't know whether that's true or not, and nobody can know whether it's true or not. But from the perspective of a local person who has a data center coming to them stuff just feels very nebulous, doesn't it? It feels a long way in the future and a long way away from where they live anyway. We should turn to the politics of it then, Anthony, and we've got this bill, haven't we in the Senate, a bill that is actually from the left, and it's a bill that would pause the new construction of data centers right away. Right. And I think you might see an impact on local races before we see it filter up to the national races, but But it's heading that way, I think. And I think there is concern among people like Steve Bannon that if Republicans don't get on the right side of this issue if they seem to be too closely tied to these giant corporations that are building these giant data centers that are creating AI programs that are going to replace many working class Americans that they're going to take it on the chin when it comes to national elections. And if they're not the ones out there taking a stand against it, if the Democrats are, then they're going to be on the wrong side of this. Let's hear from someone who is potentially then changing their minds. in fact, they are changing their minds and changing it in an interesting way. So this is a Republican voter living near a data center in Texas talking to MS now, the left wing news channel about how this issue is actually going to shape her vote in the midterm elections in November. You're willing at this point Forego. basasically every conservative issue And let the Senate fall into the hands of Democrats if that's what it takes to kill data centers. Yep. My entire community is going to break rank. Everybody. All of us. We've had enough. I mean that's big news, Anthony. it's a widespread feeling Yep, as she put it. it would be big news. And it does show the power that this issue has in American politics. and one of the reasons why Even as high up as the White House and the Trump administration, they are struggling with trying to figure out how to handle the AI issue. There was talk about Donald Trump releasing some new regulations on AI models and new regulations on AI companies, and then that got shot down behind the scenes by some of Donald Trump's senior advisors and people who are connected to the AI industry. He just released the White House released an executive order that was relying more heavily on AI companies to kind of police themselves and share Their models with the government to make sure that they're okay and that they don't do damage to the American economy, but relying on an industry to police itself may not satisfy people like that woman that we just heard in Texas. And it's worth saying it does cut across not only in terms of those objectives and not only on the left, they're also often on the right But actually the people having to deal with the objections. particularly think of governors of states that are very tempted by the money and the jobs, if there are jobs to be had who may not be Republicans, it may also be Democrats. And they've also got to deal with this. So it's one of those things that really kind of roils up US politics, isn't it You know, when you go out West and you talk to conservatives, they often do take positions that could kind of be viewed as environmentalists kind of they like land rights, they like property rights. They don't like meddling big government, but they also go out and the great outdoors a lot. They hunt and they fish and they hike and they they take advantage of natural the natural resources. So that is that's an area where Democrats could make inroads and peel away some of these conservative voters who would focus on this issue maybe more than some of the other ones. And actually you're seeing some Republicans like Governor Rond Deandis of Florida, his state just filed a suit against open AI saying that their AI model was damaging the livelihoods of residents of that state that it was harming Florida citizens. We'll see where that lawsuit goes, but I think there are a lot of politicians on both sides of the aisle that are hearing from their constituents. And there are a lot of politicians who see this as a potential source of political advantage if they can harness this frustration, this anger. Okay, Anthony, I know you've got to go now, but you are being replaced, replaced by Robert Bryce, who is A friend of the party someone who's hugely, hugely knowledgeable about all manner of energy issues, but particularly this one, he's been tracking data centers, he's been tracking opposition to them some time. pererhaps it is fair to say before it became such a big news story. So, Robert, pleasure to have you back. Hello again to you G' Gad to be with you Justin. Last time we talked it was about oil, this time it's about data centers. It really is. Both of these have a political side to them. donon't they? But before we get to that political side Let's talk about what we are actually talking about now when it comes to infrastructure and the physical existence of them. We've been mentioning Anthon and I've just been talking about this incredible plan for a sixty two mile campus in Utah, but it's not just Utah, is it? They are huge around the country and in many cases they're already there Those are all thats that's all But Kevin O'Leary's project in Utah is one example of these projects in development, are a long way from being built and even a longer way from having computers actually up and running. But All across the U.S, what we've seen is local communities fighting back. And it's because so many of these projects are being proposed But yes, it's about water, it's about electricity. It's about the character of local neighborhoods. And I've been a reporter for a long time, Justin. I've never you know close to forty years. I've never had a real job. I've never seen anything like glass that we're seeing in the United States against data centers. Really? Because againgain, we were mentioning earlier on Yes, there's been environmental backlashes against all sorts of corporate misdemeanors, haven't they? in the past? and some of them have been turned into very successful films and all the rest of it. But you're saying this is an order of magnitude different Cultural backlash, Justin. and to just a little bit of context. So I've been tracking land use conflicts around wind and solar and more lately batteries now for sixteen years. and I created what's called the reneewable rejection database. and I've now documented over twelve hundred rejections or restrictions of wind and solar over the last sixteen years, most of those in the last ten or so. That led me to create the data center rejection database Already in the United States this year, Justin, I've documented one hundred and seven rejections or restrictions of data centers in the United States. In all of twenty twenty five, there were forty nine. in all of twenty twenty four, there were nine And so we're seeing local communities across the country, whether it's in Utah or in New Jersey or you name it, local communities looking at these big projects, and I've got no dog in this fight. I use AI, I use it regularly I've never seen anything like this. It's a combination of political factors and anger at big tech. and it really is unprecedented And is it the physical presence of them Or is it the stuff that they're leaching, the water and the electricity that they're using? Well what is it, orr is it a combination of those things that people are objecting to I've thought about this quite a lot and I've written about it a lot. I started covering it in depth now seven or eight months ago, really at the urging of my son, Jacob, who lives in Berlin, and he said, Dad, you've been following the renewable rejections. Let's track data center rejections But I think the simplest way to think about it on the surface is that local communities are looking at these projects, you know huge buildings that take a lot of electricity. The water use is controversial, may be overstated by the opponents, but local communities are looking at them and saying, there's not enough benefit for us. And that's very similar to what we've seen with solar and wind. The other is that there's an anger in the US and I think around the world at big tech, the loss of privacy, the algorithms, the scale of the fortunes of the oligarchs like Bezos and Zuckerberg and the rest of them So I think people are seeing the way I would boil it down, Justin is people can't fight big tech online. They can't go to, you know, fight Google online, but they can fight them at the local zoning board And that's what they're doing How can the AI companies fight back? So if you think of renewables and the objections that have been to renewables, to some extent people are bought off locally, aren't they? becausecause they're provided with How then at a reduced rate or sometimes a very reduced rate, aren't they? to in a sense sort of buy them inure to the idea. canan the AI companies come up with their version of that? Do you think? are they even thinking about it? Oh, well, they're definitely thinking about this. I mean, there's no doubt about it. You look at some of the PR tactics that have been used. And I see the same thing the same thing happen with solar and wind where now, for instance, you know, some of the tech companies are saying, oh the opposition, they're funded by the Chinese you know, with solar and wind, they said, o, the opposition is being funded by big oil Well, that certainly wasn't true with big, wind and big solar. It's just not I mean, you know, with the opposition to wind and solar. And the Chinese money, I think it's a Card. I just think it's not, it simply doesn't account for the scale of the opposition. But I think it's important Justin too, and I'm a reporter. I pride myself on my numbers Let this into perspective. So yes, there is a backlash and it's a cultural backlash, as I said, unlike anything I've seen Yes, there have been one hundred seven rejections or restrictions so far this year in the US. But according to Atario, there are now seven hundred and sixty nine data centers in the US under construction So Is this backlash having an effect? sureure. Is it stopping AI and the development of data centers more broadly I could argue it's an issue, but it is a long way from stopping the business from growing. But I suppose the point then is whether it could be influential in making the business grow in a way that is still commensurate with people's daily lives not being damaged by it That's the challenge, isn't it? Well, of course. And I wrote a piece on my substack. I guess it was a week ago Sunday, and I listed the ten reasons why local communities are fighting against these data centers. And the next day, and I've got no line with into the Vatican, but Pope Leo issued his encyclical on AI. And then just today in the Wall Street Journal, there was an article that said Trump is now considering a policy that would require the AI companies to check their models with the federal government before they release them Again, the momentum that is developing around these issues around AI broadly, around the backlash to big tech and you probably saw Eric Schmidt, the former CEO of Google, was booed roundly. I mean, I've never seen anything like it at the University of Arizona last month. I mean, it truly is a remarkable time Yeah. And then that gets to the politics of it. So Donald Trump has signed that executive order, hasn't he? And you wonder about the Democrats and the next presidential candidate when one emerges for twenty twenty eight and the extent to which they then become kind of anti AI partarty given that a lot of America's wealth And certainly a lot of its stock market wealth is so wrapped up with this stuff that if it were to be stopped, oh my goodness, there I there'd be a proper cris Yeah, I mean, you look at the big tech firms, the giant five as I call them, Apple, Amazon, Google, Meta and Microsoft Their combined market capitalization, Justin, I just looked the other day is over sixteen trillion dollars They account for a commanding percentage of the S and P five hundred index. So if these companies catch a cold, the you know, the entire US stock market goes into the hospital. But under them Robert, they're all the hyerscalers, aren't they? all the people who are investing and building out the stuff in order that those companies can profit from them and they can all profit from them. So it's not just the top companies, is it? It goes down further from that Of course. you have their capital expenditures this year are expected to be the big, you know, the giant five companies, and I guess, including NVidia, but Something on the order of seven hundred billion dollars. So this accounts for not just a significant portion of the stock market. It accounts for a significant percentage, a very significant percentage. and I don't know that number off the top of my head of US GDP at the moment. So you know, you mentioned the hyperscalers will look at the construction firms, Kwit, Bekel, all the other companies that are involved, look at all the welders, the electricians, the pipe fitters You know, the sheet metal suppliers, the concrete companies. I mean, this has this industry has an enormous effect on the overall US economy. But I don't I certainly didn't foresee. But you know, I think big tech has clearly been caught off guard by the backlash. And as you said, how do they, you know, convince people to come to their side? Well you know, good luck., you know, their old saw in politics is you' is if you're explaining, you're losing. and they're doing a lot of explaining these days. Yeah. But just to go back to this point of what then happens, what the fallout is politically can Can you see because there's this bill in the Senate at the moment isn't it that the Democrats are putting in Bernie Sanders and others. And it's not got a hope of passing because Democrats are on in control in the Senate, but there's this idea that you simply stop now, stop construction, pause it And for all the reasons you just explained You could do it, but it would have an immediate and pretty amazing effect on the wider US economy. So you might not want to do that if you're the Democrats or indeed if you're in any political party. but on the other hand There is real anger as you say cultural change to be tapped into if a group of politicians can find a way of doing it. And as you're saying that, it reminds me of a piece that just appeared the other day and I think, again, it was in Wall Street Journal I think there's a policy afoot now in China where Xi Jinping of the Chinese government is telling companies that they cannot lay off employees and replace them with AI And that I mean, how significant is that? And remember meta slash Micro Facebook just a week or two ago announced it was going to lay off ten percent of its workforce, eight thousand workers and replace them with AI. So you know, I'm no ludite. I use AI. you know, I'm fascinated and amazed by the capabilities, but again political shift that has occurred arguably really within the last six to seven months It truly is astonishing. And you do wonder if there is some sort of a fix that the AI companies are going to have to come to. I mean, for instance, on electricity and your great , as I was saying, not just on of this, but on the whole energy pieed as it were if they could find a way, I suppose initially, having a much greater supply of electricity so that it didn't raise prices in the places where they put these centers. That at least would be a stop. And they're working on that. I mean, that is clearly the for many of these hyperscalers, they don't have another choice. They have to generate their own power because there simply isn't enough on the local grid. But all of that said, that has knock on effects. So because they have so much money and they're spending so much money, they are raising costs for utility related kit across the spectrum. So for gas fired turbines, for transformers, for switch gear, for wires, for you know cabling, for the you know the labor, all of these things are inflationary But I think it's important too to remember some of the scale of these projects. Justin, for instance, Ma slash Facebook is building this project in Louisiana. It's called Hyperion It will draw two gigawatts of power two thousand megawatts. That's as much as the city of Minneapolis I mean, these are just very, very large numbers And at a time when electricity bills are going up, people rightly or wrongly are saying, hey, you know, big tech, what you know, what have you done for us lately? And you're partly to blame. Right or wrong. I'm not saying that's, you know, there are a lot of studies out there saying, oh, don't blame big tech, don't blame data centers you know, I'm not sure it's that simple, but I Clearly, this is tapped into a public anger that is truly remarkable Can I ask you to employ your battery powered crystal ball, Robert T us What's gonna happen? It's in desperate need of a charge here, Justin. It's And it's cloudy as well What's going to happen? Well, I think that, you know the data center buildout is going to continue. I don't like I said, this isn't going to hijack build out. These projects and project developers have to be better at locating them you know, finding sites where it's not close to urban areas or regions where people can object You know, they need a better public face and they don't have one. So what happens then with to say they find someone who's a better spokesman than spokeswoman and they and they kind of get involved with the politics in a way that is insidious and you can see Previous corporate entities have done and they start paying for politicians big time. I mean, they're already doing it to an extent, aren't they? But is that the way aroundound it from? Is that how they buy everyone off or at least buy the politicians off? Let me address it in a different way because What you already are seeing is the big tech companies being very serious first and foremost about water. And I think this is the one issue that is emotional difficult to get people to come around to and everyone everywhere cares about their water. The water issue is where I think they are the most vulnerable and the one where people are the most emotional After that, how do they counter the narrative that's coming from the left and the right? I think they're going to You know You know, if damn it, Justin, if I knew the answer to this, I'd be richer than than Carl Rove. I mean, what what I know. I'm just a reporter. How do they deal with it? First you got to address the water issue and second, you got to say, look, it's, you know, we want to be good neighbors, you know, tell and find locations where where the communities want them and those are key And instead in Utah, the local politicians are saying to the locals we don't care what you think. We're going to try and jam this down your throat anyway. Robert, it's always good to talk to you, even if you can't see the future. and that's not really why we were talking to you anyway. You certainly know a lot about the present and it's brilliant. and thanks a lot for sharing it with us again. It's my pleasure. Thank you Okay before we go Pg allegiance The United States America As you will know, we're building our very own United States of Americaast. In other words, we're getting a sense from all of you about what's going on in individual states. Perhaps it's a fun fact we don't already know. It doesn't have to be that weighty And you don't have to live there, either. it could be a state you have some kind of link to. mayaybe you've lived there at some point. perhaps have family and friends there. and Linus in New York has sent us this. As you can hear, I am a Brit But I have lived with my wife in the States for nearly twenty five years now. I think living in America as Justin, you may know is a wild wild ride. particularly in terms of learning how diverse it is. so For example, living in New York in the city for ten years is one thing and they're moving to Hudson Valley Orange County, New York is something completely other. I live on a private road two miles long, It's a dirt road We have all walks of life on here and everything across the political spectrum My neighbors obviously voted for the man who's in office right now, and we get along really well So It's an eye opener to see that actually people are very maybe divided on the political line. But when it comes to being together, I think it's neighbourors first. and I think media often sort of forgets that fact But it has been such an eye opener and continues to be one just to realize how diverse the United States are that even within one state, the state of New York You can cross little county lines and you will get a completely different perspective Yeah, that was my experience entirely, Linus. Both the diversity, which I think you're absolutely right to draw people's attention to. This is incredible. diversity of viewpoint and culture and all the rest of it in the US. and sometimes I think we don't properly notice that. We certainly don't notice it necessarily when we go tourists because you tend to go to particular places, don't you? But also just the space, the space And people associate those words New York with Manhattan, don't they and traffic And yes you've made plain There is space in New York state Anyway, thank you very much for that.