Unexpected Political Flashpoints and Conclusion

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK Is the American dream still possible I'm Asm Makhalid, one of the hosts of the Global Story podcast from the BBC One of the most successful exports the United States has ever sold the world is the American Dream, that tantalizing promise of a better, freer, richer life Is it still attainable? I feel like the American Dream is alive, but not well For more, listen to the gllobal story on bbc. com or wherever you get your podcasts How did a ballerina build one of the most controversial companies in finance This week on Good Bad Billionaire, Luanna Lopez Lara, the youngest self made female billionaire on the planet. Her company, Kalhi, lets you trade on anything from elections to the weather, to war. Supporters say it predicts the future. Critics say it could undermine democracy. So is she a visionary? Or has she turned the whole world into a casino? Good Bad billionaire Listen wherever you get your BBC podcasts Hello Mariana. Hello. Here we are in the same studio at the same time We are for a special project. Yeah, we are talking about one of my favourite topics. the World Cup, may be one of your favourite topics. Well it's about to be, yeah. I mean, I always get into it when it is the World Cup. Yeah, and also I think that this World Cup is particularly interesting, which is why we're talking about it because it's obviously happening in the U.S, Mexico, Canada and there is lots to discuss in terms of geopolitics. And there's a lot going on between a lot of countries at the moment and a lot of those countries are going to be meeting in three host countries, the U.S, Canada and Mexico And we're going to have a bit of a theme of threes because we've brought together three podcasts. There's Mind, Newscast. There's Ameraicast and I'm not alone. Not alone Anthony here in Washington, DC in America for the American World Cup show. And joining us from the third legendary podcast It's John Murray from Football Daily. Hello, John. Yes, hello, everyone. Yes. And I know I'm going to be going straight to Mexico. I know I'll be in the United States It depends what happens in terms of who goes through, who goes out, whether I get to Canada or not, but I'll certainly be going to two of the three And for those of you who cannot see John, he's got his proper football commentary lip mic. So I feel like he's in the commentary booth already. Well in the football in the football daily in the comommentators view podcast, we always do it on lip mics. just I think give it that extra little bit of feel so old habits die hard. It's making me want to talk very very closely it's my microphone but that probably will not sound as good. and certainly my content will not be as good as yours John. Anyway, welcome aboard because we're going to do three episodes looking at lots of elements of the World Cup, notot necessarily the actual football. There's plenty of that elsewhere, but all of the interesting aspects around the politics, the money, the relationships and some of the things that might happen Welcome to a special Americast. Americast. Americast from BBC News. It's going to be the world's largest sporting event ever hosted. But when the time is up They'll have to go home. FIFA is making eleven billion dollars off of this World Cup. If somebody buys a ticket for the final two minute, I would personally bring in the hot dog and the Coke. It is such a unifying event It is also about winning. I may put on shorts, I'll extremely put in shorts enjoin the play. Hello, it's Adam in the Nscast Stio. and it is Mariana sitting next to Adam in the Newscast studio And it's Anthony in the BBC Bureau in Washington, D.C. And this is John sitting at my desk where I am putting my final preparations to planning to use once I get to the World Cup for our commentaries. John, does that mean you have a big binder? That's a stationary item very close to my heart I'm looking around my desk here, Adam, and I've got piles of paper. I've got the current edition of World Soccer Diego Maradona's autobiography. And I've got various other books and files. So the answer is yes. Marianne's just got her phone, which is followed out of her pock. was that little thudge was. She's got everything on one device No books or bookshelves, unfortunately. Right, We're recording three episodes. This is the first one. We're doing it on Thursday, the fourth of June and it is the afternoon just so you know what the world looks like as we're recording this episode right now. And this first in our three part series, we're going to look at kind of the genesis of this World Cup. How did it end up being in Canada, the USA and Mexico, which is quite an unusual situation and also this intriguing relationship. I don't want to call it a bromance because that's a bit of a cliche now between the two presidents, Donald Trump. and Giani Infantino of FIFA because that's an interesting story in itself. So John When did you realize you would be spending this summer North America Well, it was when it was announced that it would be the very first World Cup that was to have three hosts in the United States, Canada and Mexico And the reason for that is it is the biggest world Cup that there's ever been. So it's been expanded by FIFA to include forty eight teams So it'll take place over thirty nine days. That's as opposed to the thirty two days it would take under the previous format. And I think as well, most significantly in terms of the number of matches Now forty eighteen World Cup means one hundred and four matches compared to sixty four in the previous recent editions of the World Cup. So it seems Th these days we'll have to get through eight matches to win it instead of seven. So that's it. is very simply the biggest that there's ever been And Mariana, because it's America and it's so polarized and Trump is so dominant as a political figure, this is like, I don't know, the Oscars, the M, Gala, whatever. There's a Trump element to it respective of what we're actually talking about as the substance of the thing. Yeah. And I think that's actually why so many people are quite engaged with this even who aren't that fussed about football. I mean, I say this is like I'm very obsessed with football But quite a lot of people I've been talking to and getting messages from who've been spotting stuff on their social media feeds and saying, o like this is coming up about the World Cup. So much of that content is about the politics rather than the sport itself. And I think it wouldll be quite interesting to see when the World Cup actually gets going, how much the politics eclipses all or not maybe everyone will just love the football and the politics will end up being separate, but I think some of the tensions we're expecting mean that that might not be the case. And Anthony, obviously I mean, it's exciting that it's coming to your home turf, but I just wonder has this come to your turf as a political journalist as well? Absolutely. I've been keeping my eye on this ever since the United States was announced as one of the co hosts of the World Cup. And then when Donald Trump was reelected in twenty twenty four, it occurred be very early on that he's going to be president not only during the Olympics in twenty twenty eight and America's two hundred fiftieth birthday celebrations this July but also Wld Cu He loves being center stage. He loves being the person, particularly with sporting events. He's been had a connection to sports for most of his adult life, owning a sports football, American football franchise, being involved in boxing. So you knew he was going to inject himself right into the middle of this and with Donald Trump comes all of the divisiveness, all of the politics of the chaos that that he has brought to politics ever since he first ran for president in twenty fifteen Although John, I just wonder with you as a veteran, and I mean that in a nice way, that actually this is going be nothing new because loads of World Cups take place against a backdrop of controversial things, usually in the host country. Yeah, I'll take that in the manor intend don Yeah, as I say, I have personally been to seven of the World Cups. This is the twenty third. really, actually since the very first one in nineteen thirty in Uruguay, I mean, politics played a big part in that, in the fact that it was decided to be in Uruguay who had one of the strongest national teams the time But if you think back the next one, nineteen thirty four in Italy, Mussolini was all over that one And the the first one I can properly remember watching on the television when Scotland were famously there, at least Tartan Army In nineteen seventy eight And I've actually got my World Cup seventy eight Panini sticker book here with me as well, which I almost filled up. But I remember as an eleven year old watching being absolutely wrapped buy it on the television with the ticket tape coming down and just the feel of it and the sort of blurry television pictures. it felt like such a long way away But of course in later cur You know, I've learned that Argentina was being run by a military junter at the time. It was a dictatorship and You know, they really ran the show and you know it was almost as political as any World Cup had been at the time in nineteen seventy eight. Other brands of stickers and collectibles are available. Now when I think back to the World Cups that have happened, while I've been a professional journalist I think of Qatar in twenty twenty two, where quite a lot of migrant workers died when they were building the infrastructure And then the Russian invasion of Crimea in twenty fourteen, which was obviously before the World Cup happened in Russia in twenty eighteen. And when you talk to people about their memories of those tournaments They talk about they talk about the football. they don't talk about the controversies in the build upp to the tournament. Yeah, and I think that you know in the build up especially, there's a lot more kind of analysis and critique and reflection on the politics and what it'll mean and how it will unfold. And we saw that in the buildup to both Russia and Qatar. Once the football gets going, I think the question, I think this is the big question for the United States. and I'm sure Anthony, you've got lots to say about this. know thinking about where there could be flashpoints, if there's any gun violence, if there are any issues around Iice and immigration raids and that sort of thing. I think it's whether there's any agro that unfolds during the tournament itself could dictate whether we talk about politics. becausecause if you think of Russia, for example, or Qatar Largely, although there was controversy before those tournaments, they ran pretty smoothly and there weren't any problems. And Anthony, will'll dig into some of those issues in this episode and in future episodes as well because this is a three part mini series we were doing. so we got we've got plenty of time. But Anthony, just give us this kind of the origin story of this World Cup. Like why did why did the three countries get together in in the first place Well, I think part of it was because the scope of this World Cup was much bigger with as John mentioned more teams that this was going to be one of the or the biggest World Cup. in the tournament's history. they needed to be able to produce it over a much wider piece of real estate. We had had Joint World Cups before. Obviously Japan and South Korea hosted a World Cup, but this one with the United States, with Mexico, with North America, they all pitched the idea together. They thought this would be a unifying type of type of proposal. these three countries that were closely connected geographically, but also by their trade relationships that they would be able to put on the kind of show that would befit this much larger World Cup undertaking. So it was it was quite a proud moment for I think all three countries in the beginning. I think they saw this as an opportunity to put together a unified front and put their best foot forward And when you read the original bid document, which is this huge door stopper of a book that they put together to win the bid a few years ago, the theme that just keeps coming out of that. you don't need to be a football expert is just that all the stadiums or stadia, we should say stadium are already built. There's loads of hotels, there's loads of airports. is is ready to go pre packed World Cup. venues set of venues that Morocco who were competing in that that bidding process just just couldn't match really, John. Yeah, that's right. It's a little bit like a political manifesto, isn't it? the bid document You can always go back, can't you and say, well, what about this? what about that It doesn't what's in the big document doesn't always turn out to be exactly what happens on the ground, but you know, with the USA as the mainstay of the bid U against Morocco who tried and tried and tried and failed and failed and failed. And actually Since then, they will be hosting the next World Cup along with Portugal and Spain. So they will get their chance next time round But yes, that was the infrastructure that existed in the United States and in Canada and Mexico um, you know, was a was a a strong U deciding factor I feel, particularly when you look back to other recent World Cups, when it's been a real rush to get the stadiums finished. Although in saying that I do know that in Mexico City they've updated the Azteaka Stadium and I know that's a little bit of a race against time to get that ready for the start of the World Cup. Good there's a challenge Anka subplot because you do need that in the build up to all major sporting events, even if the hosts claim everything's ready to go. Anthony, also in that big book, the kind of the big slogan that they keep pushing is unity, certainty, opportunity. Well, certainly two of those three things have been in short supply in North America in the two Trump presidencies Yeah, it's been a difficult time for US Mexico Canada relations. even in Donald Trump's first term with what he was doing on the US. Mexico border and the crackdown and the call to build a wall, but particularly now in this second term, which started in January of last year because Donald Trump focused on tariffs and trade and the two countries or two of the first countries he targeted with tariffs were Mexico and Canada, two of the United States' biggest trading partners. That alone would have been disruptive and that alone would have cast a shadow over this tournament. But you throw in Donald Trump calling for Canada to be America's fifty first state, referring to then Prime Minister Justin Trudeau as Governor Trudeau and the back and forth between these two countries where Canada took all of America's liquor products off their shelves. the United States were priised with their own additional tariffs and it has made for some unfriendly relationships see it with some of the Canadian attitudes towards other countries. Mark Carney, the current prrime minister giving speeches abroad that directed his country to move in a different direction than the United States and start exploring other relationships outside of the what what had been the close U. S. Canada relations. Relations with Mexico are still ten because of border concerns, immigration concerns and crackdowns of undocumented migrants who have come into the United States through Mexico. So all of that puts the relations not on a unified kind of a footing that I think they had hoped that this World Cup would produce. by the way, that having been at the draw, in Washington for the for the for the finals, which which planned out the whole schedule that we have Tpical politics, they were all on the stage together, Donald Trump, Mark Carney. Claudia Sein Baum, Johny Fantino you know, they were you'd think that they were the greatest of mates. and that was just a few months ago. And so You know, they they have to get along for the sake of the World Cup. Also Mariana, I'm just thinking if you were going to watch all one hundred and four World Cup matches and if anyone was going to do that or was able to do that it would be you, I think that I know. seventy eight of those matches are in the US. thirteen each in Canada and Mexico. So actually it's going to feel like a very USA heavy World Cup Yeah, and I would say as well that a lot of the kind of outward, a lot of the content we're seeing and the messaging. I mean, to be honest, if you were Mexico and Canada, you might be a bit annoyed really because it's you've kind of been slightly lost in there. I think particularly because of the political context and because Donald Trump is such a sort of advocate for the US. hosting the World Cup The noise that I'm seeing, certainly in the social media world, but beyond is very much focused on the USA and not really on the other places. and you're somethingdly like, oh hang on a second, this match in Mexico City or this is happening in Canada. And if you were then, you'd be thinking, hang on a sec, we are actually a bit involved, but like you point out, less involved than the US. And that kind of explains why so much of the focus is on America Other John, I mean, Mexico, I mean, they've got their own place in the World Cup history post the history books This is the first time that any country will hold matches in men's World Cup tournaments. and actually they've held a women's World Cup as well. so That is also a record to host four senior World Cup tournaments and the Aztec stadium where the Opay match will be played is one of the iconic venues for the World Cup If you were to put together a show rail of, I don't know, the top twenty, twenty five moments of the World Cup probablyroably four or five of them. would be inside the Aztec stadium, which is where we saw the Diego Maredona Hand of God goal in nineteen eighty six. bothoth Telle and Maradonna have won the World Cup in that stadium you know, England have a great history there as well because they played there during the course of the eighty six World Cup before that match against Argentina. And you know, it is one of the iconic venues Yeah I'm here in the United States and I remember at the Hand of God goal in nineteen eighty six. That was one of my first World Cup memories. It made headlines here in the US. even before soccer really took off in the United States. It' something that people rank and follow, people paid attention to Although Anthony, America's history of hosting the World Cup mainly in my teenage mind was Diana Ross missing a penalty at the very lavish opening ceremony in nineteen ninety four. I'm sure there was much more spectacular football than that the following weeks, but the thing that loged into my mind was that image Yeah that wasn't the best start to it, obviously. But it was the first chance for America to see a World Cup up close. And I will say that a lot of Americans really got into it and enjoyed it. You know, America usually doesn't pay attention to the rest of the world unless it's right in front of their noses. And this put soccer right in front of our noses and it helped launch the MLS, majoreague soccer Lague that is still going on and has expanded and has quite a following here in the United States now. And I remember there was a july fourth knockout round game between the United States and Brazil in that tournament and on the fourth of July the United States playing. it was you quite a celebration and I actually went to a game here in Washington DC because I hosted some opening round games and a knockout round game. I saw Spain beat Switzerland in the knockout round. And so it pulled a lot of Americans in despite the kind of rocky start that it got up to with those opening ceremonies. And I rewatched the clip of Diana Ross doing the penalty In defenseive Diana Ross, she actually is not that wide of the goal.'s pretty close. and also she is singing live in a massive ceremony and then she goes onto a stage to do the rest of the show. So she had other things on her mind and also she didn't present herself as like top female athlete. She was like top top singer. Anyway so that's my defensive Diana Ross. It was the tournament It was the tournament that started and finished with a missed penalty because Roberto Baggio missed the penalty that decided it for Brazil and it started with Diana Ross's missed penalty in the opening ceremony. Poetic, John up and our two passions combined. Right. let's talking of celebrities John, just introduce me to the FIFA President, Gianiian Fantino, who is actually becoming, I feel sort of more and more of a global character. Yeah. and I think part of that is very close relationship with Donald Trump. U you know, he was seen as the man who would bring to FIFA You know, you change everything after the set blatter years and everything that we associated with that. and that he would Clean up FIFA. Clean up the world game And um He's very much done it his own way and I think I don't think it would be an understatement to say that he enjoys the power and there is immense's power the FIFA president. So You know, I'm not sure when. Eventually his time in that role will come to an end. And I have a feeling that if he's able to extend it as long as he possibly can He would do that and anyone that has has been circling who her, you know is seen as a potential successor just seems to have melted away is he is an extremely powerful man, possibly the most powerful man in world sports And let's get a little flavor of his relationship with Donald Trump. This is a little bit of their conversation in the Oval Office, which was in august twenty twenty five when there was a handover of some silverware. although it was probably actually goldware now that I think about it. We brought as well this which The winners Troy. It is the trophy that the winner of the FIFA World Cup wins only The FIA President Pidents of countries and then those who will can touch it becausecause it's for winners only. And since you are a winner, of course you can as well. touch it, it's pretty heavy. It's the winner trophy. The last one who lifted that is Leo Messi, Leono Messi of Arentina. And here it is in the o of office And The White House. Can I keep it? What you? Well, you you're not giving it. We're not giving it back. That's seriously It fits well. think fits very well on the wall right over there. put it right below the angel It fits well here That's beautiful. Yeahah until we have to give it to the next winner. That's fine. That's a beautiful piece of gold I what was that Ns be. Gianny and Fantino seems to be handing things over to Donald Trump every time he sees him. Well, I was going to say that I feel like In Fantina and Donald Trump's relationship, certainly well people's discussion about that relationship really was turbocharged when this incredibly viral clip u everywhere when Chelsea won this competition, which is like the the what was it even cool forot that with W cup ye notot to disparage it, not to disparage it. But that's interesting because you love football and even because'ort go back into your memory banks remember. Well it's sort of new it's kind of of a new thing. And so Chelsea won this competition and there were these clips of team lifting the trophy and Donald Trump is just standing beside them. and you can see like you know really famous footballers like Cole Palmer and Reese James of Chelsea being like. hang on whyy is this man? Here because that is not normal. L the president or whoever doesn't normally hang about on the side of the team lifting the trophy. And a lot of people found the clip really funny. Some people were also like, hang on a sec. Is this football getting political? And quite few of the footballers afterwards, like Cole Palmer were asked, whyy did you react like that? And essentially they're on sort's like, we weren't quite sure why he was still there All of that felt quite symptomatic of the closeness of the relationship between Donald Trump and Infantino I Gi, it's totally fine for him to hang about as they lift the trophy and And it felt like Donald Trump sort of getting into football. And I would say that Infantino separately from Donald Trump, although both this is the case for both of them, qu they are either sort of very hated or very loved online. They are very, very divisive figures who are very good at kind of playing the outrage machine in that way. And Infantino is probably the first person I guess I don't know what you think John, It doesn't feel like characters often FIFA or these football bodies feel very faceless and he's certainly not faceless. and that's been quite interesting seeing how that's unfolded and how people direct their anger and frustration at FIFA at Infantino specifically. which was in the in the same stadium where the World Cup final will be this year in New Jersey on the stage went against all of the protocols that I'm used to saying as an observer of football, as a football commentator. you know, that's where that's the point where the suits Leave the scene Actually, at the time, Infantino tried to persuade Donald Trump to leave Chelsea on the stage with Rist James lifting the trophy And he wasn't for buding. And Yeah, you sort of saw him just kind of staring at them and they were lifting the stth and they were all Welcome Welcome to Donald Trump America, where protocol does not matter for the women to do what he wants And if it's a big stage, as I mentioned before, he's going to find a way to get on it and stay on it even if it makes people uncomfortable. Although John,' justondering with your knowledge of World Cupss past, are there actually that many opportunities for the leader of the host country to actually insert themselves into the events in a big way? Oh yeah, absolutely. You know, we've had this Probably most notably with the last couple of tournaments in atar And do you remember Leonel Messi coming forward and having that that donate to go and lift up the trophy. I mean, that was unusual. U, but, you know, again, the dignitry stayed out of the way there And of course, Putin was front and center of the World Cup in Russia in twenty eighteen, particularly when it came to the final you remember as well, the president of Croatia, because the presentation of the trophy happened during a torrential downpour. Oh yeah. And he was given an umbrella the president of Croatia who was brilliantly turned out. she was wearing the sort of red and white chequkered outfit of Croatia She was left out on her own without an umbrella with the rain pouring down. Aolutely soaked I honestly think Infantino is the most kind of clippable person who's ever been related to FIFA. I just think I've rarely seen Well Set Blatatterave it a good goal He did, but he was not nearly Eactly, but not even nearly as prolific, I would say as Infantino. But mayaybe that tells us something about how social media has evolved rather than the people themselves. Yeah. And Anthony, I was talking about Infantino handing over gold things to Donald Trump. We alluded to the Peace Prize, which was newly created by FIFA. aroundround about the time Donald Trump was at peak anger of not receiving the Nobel Peace Prize And he handed it over to him in the in the draw at the Trump Kennedy center, which I remember watching that Friday afternoon just finding a completely bizarre kind of event to watch, but quite compelling didid that make any difference that peace prize? Becauseuse I feel that is what when Trump became sort of less interested in peace and actually the number of wars increased. And you remember he wrote that letter that was leaked to the prrime mininister of Norway saying maybe if you're not going to give me the peace prize, I'm not going to do as much for peace as I had been and loow and befold now we've been in a war with Iran for over over two months. But I think he was I think he lifeed getting that that World Cup peace P prize It was hilarious because they were so coy about who was going to get it ahead of time. They announced there was going to be this peace prize. And of course everyone knew that infantino was going to give it to Trump but he did and Trump seemed visibly moved by that. I think they put the metedal around his neck and held the trophy and actually was in The Oval Office in December, so just maybe a week or two after that that draw and there was this peace prize trophy sitting right in the middle or on the end of his desk on the resolute desk and the Oval Office. So it is he kept it and he's kept it in the Oval Office. So it is a way Hey, it's your ceiling vent. So I'm dripping. Could be the rain, could be the upstairs bathroom. Yikes You could hire the guy your neighbor recommended, but I'm pretty sure that's just his cousin. Do we know if he's licensed? or does he just st a ladder Listen to your home Coo a thumb tack Upload a photo or voice note and we'll diagnose your project and match you with the right pro for the job. Thumbtack. We know homes Hire the right pro today The United States is about to mark its two hundred fiftieth anniversary. And so on the global story podcast from the BBC, we're telling surprising tales of American influence on the world stage and in ordinary people's lives all across the globe We have this ability to export our story, and a lot of people bought it. I feel like the American Dream is alive, but not well W from the BBC, it's the United States at two hundred fifty. Listen on bbC d. com or wherever you get your podcasts. How did a ballerina build one of the most controversial companies in finance? This week on Good Bad Billionaire Luanna Lopez Lara, the youngest self made female billionaire on the planet. Her company, Kalsi, lets you trade on anything from elections to the weather, to war. Supporters say it predicts the future. Critics say it could undermine democracy. So is she a visionary? or has she turned the whole world into a casino? Good Bad billionaire. Listen wherever you get your BBC podcasts He I think it illustrates how how well Johnny, as Donald Trump calls him, Johnnyfantino has been able to build this relationship with Trump complete with Infantino. if you remember in February, put on a red USA hat at a world the board of Pace, a board of peace meeting here in Washington, DC, because Trump has invited him to all of these major diplomatic events. And I think that another sign that he knows what he knows how to connect with Donald Trump. He knows what Donald Trump likes and he has been using that very effectively