Ted Lasso as a Trojan Horse

This is in Conversation from Apple News. I'm David Green in for Sumit T Basu. Today, getting ready for the World Cup with Ted Lasso's Brendon Hunt twenty twenty six FIFA World Cup is officially underway. It is the largest World Cup in soccer history with forty eight teams and one hundred and four matches. It's almost certainly going to be the most viewed sports event ever watched by billions of fans across the world. This will also be the first time the event is co hosted by three nations, Mexico, Canada, and the United States The last time the US hosted the World Cup was thirty two years ago in nineteen ninety four. So this year is yet another chance for the US to grow its footprint as a soccer country, even if the US men's national team doesn't make it to the final To get us excited about what is to come, I wanted to talk to Brendan Hunt. He's one of the creators, writers, and stars of Apple TV's Ted Lasso. He's also a massive soccer fan and one of the hosts of the Apple News original podcast After The Whistle. On that show, he'll be breaking down all the World Cup action with Rebecca Low, who has been covering the preremier Lague for NBC sports for over a decade who will also be covering the World Cup this year for Foxports. In our conversation, Brendan and I talked about how he became such a die hard fan, his hopes and dreams for the U.S. men's national team, and his secret plan to get Americans to love soccer. And a quick warning, there is some adult language in this episode. You grew up in Chicago. att a time when, I mean, I wouldn't say soccer was exactly like in the windy city. When you were growing up? It was not Did soccer play any role in life? basasically zero, Like I don't even think I had soccer as a PE unit. Soccer back then was somethingomet I was vaguely aware of that was happening in Hispanic neighborhoods and in the suburbs. Little did I know Brian McBride was one of those people out there who was going to, you know loom large in my fandom decades later But yeah, I was basically never exposed to it. Well, so then how do you become known for soccer. I mean, one of the stars of Ted Lasso and also hosting a popular podcast that's going to be guide to the World Cup for many of us Yeah Yeah, I mean, it's a fair question. What is exactly this kinds of legitimacy? What are you doing with? Yeah All that really happened is I just got enthusiastic about it before most of us. reallyally. And not til I was an adult. I moved to Amsterdam in nineteen ninety nine and started to do comedy there at the infamous, notorious, wonderful, Boom Chicago And you know, in ninety nine, we're not there's no streaming, there's no broadband. There's no way for me to keep up with my beloved Chicago sports anymore. So I was like soccer, I'll give you a shot. And once I sort of caught the bug, I became Frankly Ravenous for knowledge and I like You know, these magazines that they had at the time, four forty two magazine and World Soccer magazine and the now defunct tootal football magazine they would have these like history chapters. So that's how I'm learning about like IX in seventy two and Claudio Gentel and all these sort of random facts and like you were nerding out. I mean you were kind of getting nerd out stats ner in history, huh? And like it's not like I'm the first American who became a soccer fan by any means, but I was as is true for so many American soccer fans around that time, especially, I was like the soccer fan in the friend group Yeah. And were on it before it was cool, like for Americans. Yeah And in particular, when friends of mine would come visit Amsterdam, I like got into translating soccer for them. and Jason Seakas was one of those friends and he bought FIFA for our playlaystation in the greenom of our theater and when we would play, I would I would say like, oh yeah, okay, seventy two IX they're like the Showtime Lakers he's like, okay, got it. And that exact same dynamic then became You know, the basis for one of the bits in the original Ted Lasso commercials. We came up with a flashcard system in order for me to make American comparisons to English teams. All I had to do was link what I don't know to what I do know Manchester United. Super rich, everyverybody either loves them or hates them. Dallas Cowboys. Liverpool. used to be great, haven't won a title in a really long time. Also Dallas Cowboys. Card of City, Dragons on the crerest. Was that hot girl's name from Game of Thrones? Kalis. Kai. Manchester City. Jennifer Lawrence. West Hown United. Pickup trucks. So yeah, I've just been doing some version of this for a while you know, the other, you know, key element of is like the enthusiasm is real, The willingness to have my heart just naively destroyed every four years is one hundred percent authentic. And why I want to bring more people along on this pain train? I don't know. I don't know. Oh I do know, because in the long run, I want us to win the World Cup in my lifetime and for that to happen someomeone's got to be banging the drum. U being in the United States. that you're saying that that's the every four years pain that we go through and likely to suffer through it again this year unless there's some astonishing course of action that happens, but the US not exactly not exactly favored to win. No, no, by no means But you know, that's why they play the games. That's why they play the games. Yeah. Well, you know, I went back and I listened to the episode of your podcast with Rebecca Low after the Whistle from four years ago And it was after that Inredible Argentina wind Like I still And I had no dog in this fight, even though I wanted, you know, Messy to maybe have his moment, but like I can still feel my body like tighten up thinking of how stressful that was that probably the most amazing final or one of in in World Cup history. Oh, I think arguably the most amazing single soccer game of all time, given the stakes and and the performances and the caliber of legends who were already involved, you know, Messi trying to stake his final claim, not really necessarily to being the best player ever and you know, Umba chasing him along and the two of them going at it in the way that they did. That was an absolutely phenomenal game. And like sure there was like a sixty five minute period in the middle there where there were no goals. R Fine. For those of who are getting into soyed, you need to accept that that might often happen. Exactly. It doesn't mean the game is not exciting for the record. And if you're going to have goals you might as well have them toward the beginning and toward the end. Yeah. bopy scoring basically back to back. in that way, only the second ever hat trick in a Worup final and a men's Worup final anyw That game Like while you're watching it, you're just aware like this is historical. is this is the literal height of this sport and we should be lucky considerselves lucky to ever find a game that even compares. Yeah Well, so how four years on now? World Cup is going to be the biggest ever because they've increased the number of teams. It's on US. soil for the first time in a few decades. Like what words are you using describe how you're feeling heading into this thing Well you know, unavoidably, one of the words is conflicted because One of the things a World Cup is supposed to be is welcoming. And I say that as someone who's visited other countries a couple times to go to World Cups and, you know, was able to enjoy of the atmosphere in the festivity regardless of where one was from So conflicted, but also our national team is they've been putting in the work for so long trying to make this happen, you know, getting us back intont the World Cup in twenty two and now trying to make a dent in this one. And yeah, they remain underdogs. There's an opportunity for national unity here in a way we do not get over anything else. L we don't get it during the Olympics because it's too diffused, too many events But this, if they can make a run here and you get into that rhythm of every, you know, four days The whole country is watching the same thing for two hours. like there's nothing else does that particularly in our streaming Broadbandy Times, like it's a unique chance for us all to be looking at the same thing at the same time and having the same feelings you know, a narrow sliver of what was the best thing about am mono culture Yeah, but that'll take the team. you know stepping up and making it something that draws people in. so hopefully they do that. That's what I was going to say. I mean, I just listened to you talking about this and I think it's even more pressure on this team than even is usual. And you know, I heard like one of the One of the American stars Christian Polisk, was asked yet again, how much pressure is on your shoulders. and he was like, I don't even want to talk about that anymore. No, I feel like I've been asked this question so many times. so I'm not gonna to get into it anymore. I mean's There's pressure. It's a World Cup. I understand that's what people have to what people have to do. They have to find ways to put pressure on the players. And I get it. I'm really grateful to be in this position But you're saying like the hopes for this to be a unifying moment in a time of such divisive politics is kind of riding on these guys shoulders And if they actually make a run, like that could help us as kind of a society A lot I mean, yeah, I mean, I don't want to overstate it all because it's just a game, but like this is the power of a World Cup. This is the power of a nation getting behind its national team in a way that we have never done in these, you know quandreial events. Even though, you know, the women's team is is so much more successful, we still are not like nationally behind them. I mean, there's definitely a lot of passion behind them, but it's just not quite the same But the magnitude of this event, is something that we've basically run parallel to. you know, and now you know, we can be riding shotgun. and I've been telling people for years one of the best cultural experiences you can have is to be Not just in a country that iss hosting the World Cup but in a country that cares about the World Cup during the World Cup. You know, watching the streets shut down, watching every bar not only crowded, but also making room It's just something that we don't get here and I'm still just naive enough to hope that this summer we will. So just some of the basics for people who don't necessarily obsess about the World Cup. I mean, it all starts with group stage. And for teams that don't make it through group stage, that is best performance at the World Cup and feels like the U S at least has to get there and move on to kind of start engendering the kinds of feelings that you're talking about It is incredibly rare for a host country to not make it to the knockout rounds. and it's even harder this time Be you play three games Three points for a win, one point for a draw and the top two teams advance automatically. But in this World Cup, there's a slightly more convoluted thing. that was also there in nineteen ninety four, but it hasn't been there since ninety four being last time we hosted where most third place teams will make it So thirty two of the forty eight teams will make it to the knockout rounds, which arguably takes out some of the jeopardy, frankly But yeah, to not get out of the group stage. which is not impossible. You know, the U. S. doesn't have any Any mugs in their group. There's no tomato cans. like there's no all star teams either, but It's a low ceing but a high floor So it could be tough, but I'd be pretty surprised if they didn't make it out. Let's talk about the U.S coach, Murio Pochatino. I mean, he was brought in about what like two years ago and so much is wriding on kind of whatever chemistry and team he's put together, L what can you tell people about him and how he's built the team we're about to see He is arguably not arguably, I think fairly definitively the most accomplished coach we've ever brought in There's always controversy around bringing in a quote unquote foreign coach, but we've done that before, so we don't really have that as much. He likes to play a very pressing and aggressive style and he really, more than anything else, what he's been stressing over the course of the last couple of yearsince he's been hired And as is revealed in that HPO documentary US against the world, but I think it's fantastic by the way, and I high reallyly recommend as a primer for this World Cup. But Pacatino preaches passion If you pardon the alliteration. just wants them to Not just. he also wants, you know, his tactical things and particularly, you know, the pressing and getting the ball out, but like He over and over again harpps on like, you have to play like your life depends on it. You have to play like you are feeling the weight of your country and you are trying to serve your country with nothing but one hundred percent passion in every single moment that you play And for a coach so accomplished and you know, so tactically wise to be harping on this thing, which should be a given Really is I think pretty interesting. and you know, they're definitely starting to show it. You know, they played Senegal the other day and and they won and they they looked good. They lost against Germany and these friendies don't really matter, but like those are two good opponents. I mean, those are those are not very good all yes. Yeahah, Not at all. And like, yeah, they were losing, but they were very unhappy about it in a way you want to see Exactly. Yeah I just think about like each one of these players just has a story behind them, you know, where they grew up, how they got here Christian Polisk, you know, he's from Hershey as a Pennsylvania. I mean, I grew up in Lancaster like, you know, a half hour away. Hershey actually made a custom bar with his face and signature on it, like to commemorate this moment Obviously I'm following him. mean any players who you're particularly fond of and following as this unfolds? Yeah, two players who are in the spine of the team who are both immensely important and also a little bit injury prone, which is the central midfielder Tyler Adams and the central defender, Chris Richards Chris Richards is currently hurt. He's supposed to be back in time for the World Cup, but we just don't know right now Those two guys are just phenomenally phenomenally important. Chris Richards is our best defender by far, and Tyler Adams is an actual dynamo. I got to see him play live for the first time when he was playing for leads. There was a game at Liverpool, mightighty, mightighty Liverpool who were huge favorites and Tyler Adams covered every blade of grass in that stadium. He was absolutely everywhere. It felt like the difference in hearing an artist's records and seeing them in concert. L he was He was in more than three D. He's a phenomenal player and he's not as celebrated as Polic know, nor as Chris Richards, of course, but absolutely essential to what the team can do. And if they lose Chris Richards and if they lose Tyler Adams, God forbid then hopes diminish significantly for progress. Well Chris Richards, I mean, in particular, I mean, it isn't the one big vulnerability defense for this US team. likeike if they go up against an amazing attack from another club. I mean, they could be down like three, four nil really early if their defense collapses and makes some mistakes. That is the fear That's far we have a far more accomplished attack than we do defense Chris Richards is back there. They want to a little bit better about it. I mean, that there's just something so special I'm sure for these guys. This is a bigger stage than I think almost any other in sports globally. Oh, one hundred percent It's the biggestorting event there is it's, you know, it has been called by a man who' otherwise very stupid. It's a Sper Bowl every day. I mean, it's by the time we're say that. That'll be Johnny Fintino who was the head of the openly corrupt organization known as FIFA.. And here's the thing too, about this World Cup. Like for those who don't know, when the U.S. plays Home games. Typically like a World Cup qualifier or in the regional competition known as the Gold Cup or the Nations' League, they do not have a home crowd almost never You know, they'll be playing in Cincinnati or Denver or whatever. and it'll be, you know, forty thousand people, fifty thousand people, and five to fifteen thousand of those people are actually rooting for the US And the other know seventy five percent are rooting for the visiting team, be it Mexico or Guatemala or Costa Rica, or what have you. So for the first time in thirty two years, this US comes into a situation where they will actually have full stadiums Cheering you know full throatedly for them, you know, the sixty or seventy thousand at so f, same amount in Seattle and then we'll see what happens after that. But they've already commented on it. after the Senegal game, Sjinio Dest, who is a Dutch born But like a very important player for this team. He literally came out and said, I was surprised by the support. This game was in Chlotte. They had about fifty thousand people. and he was like, we've never had that before in my time here. And he's been with the team since before twenty twenty two And if we can have that all summer, it helps a lot And it does, and that's why home teams tend to do well in World Cups. Like can that passion in the stands, know help ignite the passion on the pitch and affect results in some way Yeah, the World Cup is bigger than the Olympics, a regular game between The group stage game between, you know Bosnia and Canada can be as big as a Super Bowl It's just Constant massness and constant passion. And yeah, the statium should be full here as long as FIFA has't priced out everyone in the world, which is entirely possible. Which is entirely possible. I mean, there has been controversy over expanding the number of teams. like some people saying it's a good thing. some people saying this is just like a total money grab by FIFA Do you come down on one side of that or the other Oh basically everything FIFA does is motivated by money. So I don't think more matches necessarily is going to make this Bet, it could dilute and diffuse the product But yeah, people said that about March Madness when it went to sixty four teams as well. So maybe they have a vision that is not very clear right now, but it's going to take the jeopardy out of a lot of the group stage games for one thing. It's going to make a champion have to win eight games instead of seven R, which makes it even harder for any of the smaller or mid range teams even to happen for any like first time winner to happen So it doesn't feel like it's for the greater good overall. The only good I can see in it now is that there will be some exciting knockout matches earlier. But yeah, more in this case definitely does not necessarily mean better So who's your favorite and who's your like dark horse Cinderella story? Like which countries are you watching I think the Champion will come from France or Spain or England. And in terms of teams that are sort of off the board a little bit that could make a run Columbia, which is, you know, sort of middle of the pack of where favorites are, I just have a notion about them and who I think actually could could do way better than people expect. and I can't exactly articulate why I think this, so please don't ask. But Ecuador. Okay. Every time I'm making a bracket, I keep picking Ecuador, you know in certain situations. Colombia, Ecuador are off the board choices, but Spain, France, or England are the smart money, I think. My friend is from Morocco, and he's dying for Morocco to make some noise like they did last time and thinks they That was incredible. Yeah. Morocco making the semise last time around was absolutely phenomenal. But when teams make an incredible run like that, like they've never made it before Unexpected teams, you know like South Korea in two thousand two, like Croatia in ' eighteen They rarely equal the feat in their next tournament. And I saw that Mandami has picked Morocco to win the entire World Cup, picked them to win over France. There's the jinx. There's the Jinx, whichich would be thrilling. Yeah, but probably jin. yeah But I would be surprised if they were able to repeat what they did before Just because it's yeah, almost never done I want to come back to you, Wh where are you going to be? I mean,, you know, you have this podcast with Rebecca Low. you're kind of covering this as a podcaster, soccer journal in a way. you obviously, are a celebrity who gets recognized from Ted Lasso, like what is your identity in your relationship with this World Cup? and where are you going to be? So I will be I'll be rooting my head off at all the U.S games. I'm going to definitely try to get to a Holland game or two because you know, again, I learned to love football in the Netherlands and I still have great affection for their team. I got a soft spot for England. I've spent a little bit of time in England the last six years or so, that gets in your blood a little bit, though I will not be cheering for them as lustily as I will, the US and the Netherlands. Probably go to almost all the games that are in LA. I think there are seven games happening totally at SofI. But I yeah, I have tickets to Holland Japan and to England, Croatia And yeah, hopefully, you know I can get to more as a knockout rounds. Like then you got toa keep my powder dry and wait and see how the knockout rounds shake out before they start getting Google flights out and then figuring out what's happening next I mean, do you think I feel like just stepping back, like since ninety four, people have been talking about where we've become a soccer country in the US Have we Like I was Roger Bennett the Men and Blazers guy. like I was talking to him not so long ago and he was like You know, backack in ' ninety four, soccer was behind tractor pulling in popularity in sports in the US. And you know now it's up to like number three by some surveys. I don't totally believe that, but is there soccer fever now in the United States I don't know that it's full on fever, but you know, it's been a very slow creeping up. I mean, for a while now, we've been the best country to watch football in because We're able to turn on You know, our TV or a computer in the situation and basically watch any big game that is happening anywhere in the world, whereereas even in England, they can't watch all the games in England So we've been able to offer the Sorg' board and then people are sampling it here and there does mean is the sport in America is in a far better position to exploit this World Cup to becomeing an even biggest sport in this country than it was in ninety four. Like in ninety four, You know, this World Cup, I've known about, you know, for six years. I've been looking for it since the moment they announced it. I've been so excited. The World Cup in ' ninety four, I literally found out about it a half hour before it was starting. And I was in Chicago where they were having the first game less than two miles from where I was, I'm just flipping through channels And like, Oh, that's Solder field. Oh, arere they getting ready for a soccer game? What is happening? So somewhere in the difference between a half an hour and six years Yeah is the math of what, you know, this could mean for soccer in this country. And there's the age old question of like, oh, what if our best athletes played soccer instead of all these other sports and like, it's a bit of a tired Qion, but also like, yeah Well what if they did? Athleticism alone does not do it, but if we can, you know, start getting people to care more about it from the ages of five and learn, you know, the subtleties and the technique more than the the brute force. I mean, we really We really could be onto something here And like, yeah, we've just got a lot of people and so many people who like doing so many things Yeah that surely surely we'll get good at this at some point. I have the same memory of ' ninety four. Like I traveled to Orlando, which I think was hosting was one of the host cities. And I was like, why are all these people from other countries here? Like I literally had no idea. and I feel like now it's just this buildup that's been coming for six years and you're right Totally different. Why are these people from other countries here and so stridently showing their other country from now? And so patriotic and cheering and yelling and very drunk. Going back to like you and Jason Sudeas and like your early days in comedy, but also soccer, like do you remember at a very basic human level, like what was drawing you to this sport over O ones. I mean, they're little things and they're big things. One of the little things is no commercials That's nothing. Another one of little things is two hours. You're in, you're out. you're done but also just, you know, it can be very you know, a very immersive experience if you find yourself in a proper soccer bar. Like when I moved to Amsterdam, one of my first sort of big game experiences was watching a Champions League semifinal, second leg between Manchester United This is the Manches Un of that David Beckham feellllow that so many of you have heard guy Yeah. And Juventus and it was at Juventus in Turin Jventus went up to nothing very early, and then Manu had this incredible comeback. And I was in a bar of mostly Manu fans and a few Juventus fans just the thundering and And like the roller coaster of these emotions and these people This is not quite like anything I've ever been a part of. just the bar part of it. I've watched the bears and bars. I've watched the bulls and bars, but this is different. And the kind of athleticism involved for soccer is just a little bit different than the athleticism we need or that we see in other sports like There's only so many ways you can cross the line of an enzone with a ball in your hand, but there are infinite number of ways to score goals because the field is so damn big, an infinite number of spots from which to do it. An infinite number of ways to interlink as a team in the buildup that goal. I find myself drawn more to moments of technical excellence in soccer than I am in other sports. Sometimes you see this little you moment of magic And you're like, how did they do that? And partially that's because as someone who'd never played the sport, Everyone who is good at it seems like You partard of my French a fucking mician to me. Total art magician artist, like the whole yeah. Yeah Like someone who's incredible at basketball, like I know the mechanics of what they're doing. And like I can't do that either, but at least you know understand Yeah. Yeah. ye. But soccer just absolutely blows me away over and over again. Yeah 's amazing. When you guys created Ted Lessso, Were you wondering if like American television viewers were going to get into it? Like what was the feeling was the expectation It was It' certainly an element of my personal master plan for the show. caveat that we didn't know ifone was going to watch it at all because we were going to be on a streaming service. that didn't exist.. But I have long felt that You know, as Americans complain about soccer If you can get yourself caring about just one team and you just want Before you know it, you want that team to have good things happen to it so bad that you see past all those other problems. It doesn't eliminate those problems.ose problems no support is perfect, and those are the imperfections there trricking people into caring about a team. And like a World Cup should do that. you know, you should care about your national team. But for whatever reason people might not And you can certainly say in advance like, I'm just not gonna to watch soccer, fine. But our little TV show has a little Trojan horse in it of making you care about the characters and you care about the characters and you care about this team. And now you care about this team on this show, Well now you haa, I tricked you. You got it. Now you care about soccer. And so yeah, you know, people have Aecdotally certainly, you credited us with a little bit of helping soccer become more popular. I don't know how true that is. It must mean a lotough particularly? Hey it's pretty cool Pret prettyty cool. I definitely been trying to make this happen for going on going on twenty seven years Yeah, if we can have done our part then I'm happy about that. But again, it's just you got to start to care justust a little bit about one team and see where that takes you We can't wait to listen to your show with Rebecca Low, and hope this US. team makes a run. What fun it will be for all the reasons that we talked about. It would just be great than Thank you. that was really fun. Thank you, Did a pleasure We'll include a link to After the Whistle with Brendon Hunt and Rebecca Low on our show notes page. and every weekend you can find new episodes of Apple News in cononversation in the Apple News app. Just tap on the audio tab, the little headphones at the bottom to find it.