The Concept of Evil in Psychosis

Welcome, welcome, welcome to arrmchair Epert. Experts on E experpert. I'm Dan Shepardd. I'm joined by a crying lily pet. No, there's like dust on my. you're ha an allergic reaction right now. Well, we didn't finish something. We started and that's upsetting for. Are there high winds in here that I don't know about? Maybe. Okay This is one of the most interestnteresting episodes we've ever had.. ourur guest today, Cohen Miles Wath is a mental health advocate and speaker. and he has a memoir out now called Mending Reality an Advocates' existential Journey with Mental health This is a firsthand account of someone who had a psychotic break A schizophrenic episode that resulted in them trying to kill their father. Yes. And the amount of bravery and honesty that Cohen brings to this is incredible. It really is. It is very helpful to hear the first hand account as opposed to the outsider's view of it is very powerful I agree. Please enjoy Cohen Miles Wrath This episode is brought to you by American Beverage. We've probably all had that moment where someone says something about an ingredient in your drink and you're like, shouldhould I be worried about that? And then you look it up and immediately end up in the wildest corners of the internet with completely contradicting information. All I want is clear transparent information. And I bet you do too That's why American Beverage launched Good to Kn. It's a site where you can look up over one hundred and forty common beverage ingredients, what they are, how they're used, how they've been reviewed for safety, No spin or judgment. just facts. You can decide for yourself. Visit good to Knowfacts. org for more information We get support from Quince Have you been wearing the Quinslin shirts? Yeah. I've been wearing them a suspicious amount. Yeah, European linen ones, They're thirty four bucks, which is genuinely insane for how nice they are. It doesn't even make sense. Well here's the deal. they work directly with the factories, cut out all the middlemen, so you're paying for the actual quality and not some brand's marketing budget Everything's fifty percent to eighty percent less than comparable stuff. I love it because it's all very classic and traditional and I know I'm going to be able to keep it for a very long time and the quality's off the charts. That's true. The style is very consistent. Whatever you get there, you walk down the street, you're gonna look good. They have these lightweight cotton sweaters, which I love for when it cools down at night, it' nice Drape around your shoulders in the summer and then throw it out when it gets a little cool. And it's not just clothes. They do home stuff, ding ding ding, travel stuff, everyday essentials. It's all the same model, quality without the marku. Make your summer wardrobe easier. Go to quintince dot com slash dAaxs for free shipping on your order and three hundred sixty five day returns. Now available in Canada too That's Qu I ncE d. com slash dax for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Quints. com slash dax He's in our chance He' Jackiceet you. Thanks for coming. Yeah, thanks for having me. Where do you live currently? Sauguries, New York So so about a couple hours north of the city. S It good with all Senect. Oh yeah. What happened up there with the Namian. I a lot of it Native Americans Yeahative Yeah. I guess we have some silly stuff up in Michigan, Mackinaw Island. Yeah, that one's wild. Sounds like almost like a saltwater taffy flavor Detroit's okay. What do you think about Detroit, Cohem? That's fine. Iave' you never been to Detroit? You haven't. Never been to LA either. so first welcome. I would have said you're not missing much, but I will say the city has really rebounded. Rebounded. Detroit. Yeah. You remember my review from January. I don't believe how nice it's gotten. Yeah And you're up there with wife and baby. We're not married. Partners for life and new baby in December, december twenty seventh. She's adorable, sweet little girl.. So just months old. Yeah, four months last week. Oh, I love it. Over the course of the last eight years, we've got to interview a lot of folks. I didn't think I would ever get to talk to. And in particular, kind of a new wave of people being honest about some of these conditions that you only could learn about in an abnormal psy class like I did in college, right? And we'll get to what my current understanding of schizophrenia is. based on a twenty eight year old class I took, but increasingly people with these conditions are coming out and talking about the experience and I have to say it has an incredibly powerful effect in that Take sociopathy. you're like, o, sociopaths, wrriteem off. Stay away. And then we interview someone who's clinically diagnosed as sociopathic. and you're like, oh yeah, you're just born that way. and you're different from your peers and that's a rough situation. Exactly. And then we have someone with borderline personality and it's like, oh, stay away from those people. No, those people do just got delta hand. And so you will be the first person I think we've talked to who has been diagnosed with schizophrenia Schizoaffective. Yeah Tell me how the differences. Yeah, the difference is schchizoaffective can have symptoms of schizophrenia, such as delusions and hallucinations, but also bipolar or like mood type disorder diagnoses. Deppression are highs and lows, right? So it's kind of a combination. But I will say that how I like to frame it is I have a mild mild seveverity. there is a spectrum to it. And obviously in my story, there's a lot of other factors involved such as substance misuse and a other things. So my particular incident is a unique and rare one, but it's one of the more difficult Wh to share my story. For sure. Now what I learned again twentyw plus years ago now. twenty eight years ago, in an abnormal py class was Sizophrenia has a genetic component. It can be seen in the genome. We know the low size for it. it can get passed down and that it can be dormant unless A very stressful situation happens and that there's a window of vulnerability between like, I don't know, sixteen and twenty five where carriers of the gene can express it if something traumatic happens or stressful. And if nothing happens in that period, they may carry that gene, and nothing may happen. Is that still kind of the Yeah, I will say that I'm not in the psychiatry field. I do more of macro mental health work which I could expand on pon that. but that is my understanding of it, But there's a wide range of perspectives on these diagnoses and definitely though the science, I would say still sticks with that. Okay, thank goodness. have the stuff I've learned inveling anology stuff. Every time I pick up any kind of journal, I'm like, that wasn't right? Yeah. But let's start at the beginning in upstate New York Because as you already say, there's all kinds of variables in this stew that leads to senior year of college. So explain early childhood? Yeah, so I grew up in Coakon, which is another Native American c. My parents were separated early on. About three or four years old. Actually the first memory that I have is in my dad's arms and I'm crying and pleading for my momama to take me because they had separated early on. You know, I go back and forth between these two homes, O'so Hawkon and O one' in Dansville, about ten minutes away. So not super far from each other. But these two homes look very, very different One side is my mom, she married someone else who had two children, so I grew with five siblings in a small three bedroom home And on my dad's side is the only child back and forth between these two homes were very different, very unique. Beacause you had an older sister who mom had before she married your dad. I'm the youngest, so my mom had three children before having me with my dad. Okay, so when they got divorced, mom was leaving with four children. Y One of which was your dad's biological child, you. Yeah. And then yeah, new stepdad has two children. Y. Okay. You're very generous in your book to say, lookook, this is my memory. I remember wanting to stay with Dad. Dad remembers that. Mom does not remember that and doesn't think that he. All possible, right? Yeah, it's a bit of a chaotic mess, but that's okay because both of them were very loving at the end of the day. I write about it in my book because when I think about mental health, we have to look at the whole person and across the lifespan. And we know that adverse childhood experiences increases the likelihood of later mental health difficulties. Not everyone though. It all depends on the person grow up in a perfect hhold and still face something difficult of course. But you know I think that is an important part of my story is just to look back at that childhood. Yeah, and ace scores as they mount, the statistics get pretty unavoidable. There's all these really staggering markers as they mount up and you get above six or so aces. Yeah. So in the household you went to There were two bedrooms for all the kids, but there's a bedroom for three girls and a bedroom for three boys. Yeah mom's working her ass off? Yeahes, she was working as a nurse or actually as a lunch lady at start. and she became a nurse eventually.ill is one. Did they get along or no? That's a great question. I think they got along for the most part. Definitely when I got into high school, I remember them being V very friend with each other.. And what was your stepdad like? You said you don't really remember what he did for a living? Yeah, he definitely brought some challenges into the home. but I will say that actually later on in my story and I don't write about this because I don't have the space in my book for it, but you know, I actually live with him at my mom's right after I got out of jail and he's super, super supportive And he continues to be. Oh wow. he continues to reach out. So I wish I could have included that nice little story arc with him in there I didn't have the space for. But that became weirdly an entry point for him to have a relationship with you that was different. Yeah. So obviously money was scarce. You guys were on welfare and had food stamps and the whole nine. Yeah I can only imagine, but what was it like when you would go visit dad Well, you know, my dad would take me everywhere. He'd take me down to Pennsylvania just to get Pilly cheeseesteaks. We love to drive places. We love to go to Florida, Disneyland, so he took me everywhere. I was his only child. so he was able to, even though he was fuel delivery driver, didn't make a whole lot of money, but since I was only his child, he was able to invest more into that type of life. li modestly, right? He's living in a trailer in a rural area. Double wide trailer. he definitely brought a little bit more structure to the home, a little bit more cleanliness, I would say. So when I moved in with him in the sixth grade, a little bit of a privilege there to have a space where I could start to become who I was. My favorite parts of your book are how honest you are about telling on yourself for your own less attractive qualities of which I had so many growing up. But just talk about this dynamic of having these five siblings who are living in one situation and then you're kind of going off One day a week and every other weekend and what's happening in that social structure from that. Eighth grade, those teenagers years, like it's a really rough time overall, but I definitely formulated some judgments for my siblings for what they were doing. You feel a little better than them? Yes.. Yeah, and that can sometimes come with that privilege. and like no one was going to Disneyland and my mom I'm sorry I was doing that. And you were kind of rubbing their nose in at a time. Yeah, yeah,ah, honestly. yeah that's how it was. Even when they were smoking weird or stuff like that. I judge them for that, even though I would partake. It was a weird dynamic. Yeah, your dad sounds like the sweetest Dude, Oh ye you He's a single dad. He's trying his best. He wanted you from the jump. You finally convince mom to let you come live with him at eleven, I guess. And he's taking you to church. Yeah, we go to church every once in a while, you know, he definitely wanted that to be a part of it, but also like I feel like he wasn't completely invested because the church felt like a hypocrite to him to some sense. Well, that's why I think he's even better. It's one thing if you're just super religious and you go too me, it just seems like I'm gonna try to do all the right stuff with this young boy. Yeah, That's so sweet. at the values way taking care of each other. That's what he really wanted to instill in me. I think that was more important than going to church. And he bounced permanently because you had left during service and they wouldn't let you back in you went to go pee. That was a breakaking point. The church basically kicked me out when I was a little kid, right? Be you had to go to the bathroom? This is what he had told me. I don't really remember this. We were in service and then I went the main room to go to the bathroom, and when I tried to come back in, the priest was like, you know, we can't let you back in because they were in service already. And my dad was like, what? Yeah crazy. But also dad's rocking a fucking mullet. I was rocking a mullet too. I mean that thing was sexy. Dad's wearing leather jackets, he's got a earing, He's a mullet, he's fucking driving fuel around. like Yeah. He's presenting as a rough customer But then there's this completely sweet side How did he get labeled bipolar? And when did that diagnosis come about? So yeah, I didn't learn about that until after everything had happens until many, many years later. So he had lost his brother early on in his life, thirteen, fourteen years old, my uncle that I never met. I can share this because he has shared this. he has had some suicidal thoughts after that, and I think around that time he'd been d but Again, he didn't really believe in it or want to talk about it. Yeah, so he's receiving this term bipolar. It's certainly the first time he's ever heard it. Nowadays, everyone's quite familiar with that word. But I'm sure when he heard it in the eighties, different time Yeah. He's like, you know, no one had heard of bipolar. What does that mean If he had not felt any discomfort about it, embraced it and was open with you about it. Who knows what your kind of like base awareness would have been. Yeah. It would have taken a very special person to be very open about it back then. Yeah, I think big time. Especially I think being a man too. Yeah. So once you get in with your father me through middle school and high school and Finn and kind of finding yourself then. I metet my best friend Finn, in sixth grade. He was wearing a two pock shirt with Bing on it. We had a school project together. we just meshed, we vibed, and he becomes a brother to me during that time when I kind of like lost my siblings, although they were still there, but you know, it' a different home. I didn't really care about academics I didn't really care about studying. I was a slacker hundred percent. But then I find like a talent in distance running. I was just fast. Eighth grade, I started to just win races. It also gives you an identity in a moment where you're really trying to figure out like, oh, what is my thing? This dude's that and she's this. It's a nice little anchor, I think. Oh yeah, I'm a runner People around school know that I'm the runner. Yeah, especially when you just start winning, and gain some popularity. Like I was made fun of for my mollet. I was picked on. I did in eighth grade, get rid of it. I conformed to the teenage fashion standard and started to gain some popularity and that definitely brought that identity in me. At this point, you've started playing drums, E and Finn for a band. Fism, five incredibly sexy men.. Were five members? There was, there was some drama, a band drama, you know, we went down four at some point. Okay. But it still works. still works. still works.. That's great. Yeah, if you drop below that, you might have to start using different languages. Yeah you gota the letters fifty or something. Now how good of a runner were you? They go ahead and brag. I'm gonna give you full license to brag Walk me through the progression to twelfth grade I made my first state championship. Oh man, I haven't thought about this in forever. It must have been tenth grade maybe. I made cross country states for the first time, which was a big deal. In junior year, I get some records. and then senior year, I actually qualify for nationals. And when does Dan the coach come into your life? Dan came in in my freshman year and he definitely instilled this idea of being a twenty four hour seven days a week athlete. And because I'd showed some success, he really wanted to bring me out because he was you know, a runner himself, He was very passionate. and now he still coaches at a Sy GenesCO actually. So he's a role model for me. a huge protective factor, a huge role model And I get to the point where I qualify for this national race. I had finished second in state secondcond inate New York states get your Almost the state champion. There's always one. F add at this point, this is kind of also a pivotal because you start becoming open to the notion like, wow, I'm actually going to get to go to college for this. And initially you were like, I got to go division one and you weren't getting any bites on those applications And then Dan convinces you, you know, fuck all that, go D three, be a big fish and just win. Your times will speak for themselves. So you've kind of adjusted, right? You've recalibrated by the time you go to state. I definitely had this big vision, right? this idea of being a D one full scholarship because you know, money was also an issue. No one in my family had graduated college, It wasn't on the radar of my siblings. My dad and I we really didn't want that financial burden goinging back to aces here. rununning got me there. That completely shifted it. And I now had a chance to do something I was really passionate about, but it became the only thing. I definitely was like, I'm going to college for running and that really set this standard and this pressure on me from the start. You gotta wonder what overlaps and what's driving what? but you're already smoking weed and middle school. You're also having these elevated experiences physically through running, right? So you're touching this other realm of like very heightened experience kind of frequently And then going to nationals when I get to the big stage and I have This just lights out best chays of my life. So there's twenty entrants and your goal is to hit fifteen, right? You like that'll be a good showing. I was just happy to fick and be there. I didn't think I even belong there. I did good in states, but not national level. so I was Definitely just aiming for like, you know top fifteen as a big wish. but then I just have this lights out moment. And it was a combination of just this passion, this drive, and then that heightened experience because when that last lap came and I kicked two other runners ass, it was a sixty three second last lap and a five K and you ended up finishing f in sixth place. Which makes you all American That's the cut offff for all American. Rreight on the cuff. And'll add you're younger than everyone. You have a November birthday, so you could have either been a year young or a year older. Yeah, November twenty first is my birthday. So here's where we get a little bit of like all the different variables that add up to a life. It's like, who knows, mayaybe if you would have been a year older and you had done that in eleventh grade, that would have been like scholarship path or full ride potentially to D one I completely altering the trajectory of Pm my running career But you'd think this being six would still get you there. It was too late in the season. everyone's already declared Everyone's already declared. I think I got actually a really last minute offer from like a D two college. but I was like I'd already made my decision. I'm to respect that. Okay, so you go to SUy, which is in New York. I actually go to Saint John Fisher first semester. Okay Yeah, whichich is up in Rochester, Pittsfurgh area. I pretty much transfer after a semester there into Sni GenesEo. How does that go? You know, I think I wanted to join GenSCo because they had a better team. Their team often qualified for nationals on a regular basis. Fresh vene year, not so great Freshman year, I was the first freshman at the university to break fifteen in minutes in the five K. I don't know, didid you see this marathon that just happened broke two hours in the marathon? I can't even remember the name Two hours. Oh my go. So they're running under five minute miles the entire time. Oh, yeah, yeah, they're like four hundred thirty something. That is c. I couldn't run over five minute mile for a billion dollars Also continue good run six miles. Yeah. run a single mononey le Oh my God, that's insane. Wow What is the vibe? I have a stereotype for like Symphony musicians, right like that's all they do. So what is the vibe for these kind of elite long distance runners? Is there a personality type? Yeah, I would say so. And I mean, at Geneso, when I was there, you know, I got a mix. I had those who were the twenty four seven athletes, right? The ones who were like per dedication, dry seasons, no drinking, no partying. And then you also had people on the team who like to be a part of that running culture atmosphere, but also, you know, won the party. You in college. And you flought back and forth between those two groups throughout your Pretty much So when I was a freshman, you know, I had that stellar five k time. I had qualified for this junior national Championships, which is for the fastest nineteen and younger athletes. So I'd qualified through my time, but then I got my first injury. And that was the first time that I had experienced an injury. You fractured a footbone, Is that what it was? It was a stress fracture, I think in my shin. So you take like six weeks off or maybe more than that, I can't remember You know, what do I do when I have that time off? I want to engage in partying. to It's college. I wantan to have fun? Like I had friends who did. So you partied and then you recovered. And then how long do you go until your next injury Pretty much in the next season of cross country, I face another injury I showed some success a little bit, not even close to what I wanted to, but then I faced another injury. and this actually happens pretty much every year where I would show that success, work really hard, train really hard and then get injured and party and happened every year. You'd regulate. You would be depressed and you would be directionless and your identity would be in threat and then you would Medice. And you know, I wasn't shy about smoking weed or drinking. I liked that experience, that heightened type of experience, and that made me feel better. So there's one terrible race. Yeah, there's the big one. cross country nationals. You know, I had really shown some success early on in that season. and then once I hit nationals, my entire team has a bad race. And this was my last chance at cross country. Also of the day you turn in twenty one, is it on your twenty first birthday? Day before I turned twenty one, which is a big deal in college, right? have this whole race. I finished like, I think one hundred something, which was back where I finished a freshman year. So that was very crushing And you know in between seasons, you took time off to rest and recover, prepare for the next one. What did I do? I did what I become used to doing Probably a lot more because now I was twenty one, I could go to bars. We ba booze for the bus ride home from the Yeah, me. He started medicating the second that race was over Okay, now we get into a nice real degenerate level of use. You're coaching, but you have a fucking one hitter on you at all times. You're like stealing hits from the pipe while you're coaching, you're smoking when you wake up all day long. smoking what weed? Weed Yeah.. You're an addict At this point, when you're caring around a one hitter and you're supposed to be coaching people and you're stealing hits. Yeah, while they're doing Mollaw pizz out in the airport field, I'm like smoking weed by my car. Yeah, it's getting to that It's isolated. you're not at a party, you're not with friends. There's nothing social going on. No You were just like regulating, regulating regulating Every minute. And did you recognize it? You recognize like this is a little, I know this isn't great. No, I was like loving it. You traded the one high for another. Unfortunately, this one has a very predictable law of diminishing returns. So it all works for a while. That's why we all become addicts. If it didn't work we wouldn't do it. Yeah, that's true. But That isn't necessarily even takes its course. so When does your sense of reality start getting questionable or what things first start happening? So this was about a year after I basically quit running close to it and I actually become really obsessed. Now that running was no longer in the picture, I was like, I need something else to do. And for some reason, I became obsessed with screenplay writing, movie writing And it's mainly because I had this big idea for this movie. I was like, this is gonna be an instant hit. The movie happened to relate with the relationship with my coach, Dan, Write what you know. And I would just spend hours in the library studying screenplay literature and movie writing late into the night. I'm kind of like not really caring about my school academics anymore. My GPA drops. And so that was an early sign of mania raapid thinking, grandiote ramp up that ride up. is also kind of euphoric, right? It is. You're like on math without being on math. Pretty much, I love that I was passionate about that, but it was to an unhealthy level. Right. I was gonna to say this later, but I guess now I want to know about right now. There's all these elements of it. One of them, I think that's unavoidable is like is some bizarre level of narcissism that the manicness. You're important, you're gonna to write the best screenplay ever. It kind of fantastical thoughts of grandeur. Yeah. You think you're like bigger than what you really are. Yeah, yeah. And there's like this lovely dose of it. Everyone in college should think they can bepielberg compomicated But there's just like I don't know what the line is. Yeah because you don't actually get to be any of those people without some level of grandiosity. You do have to believe like all of us that we came here and're like, well, out of these millions of people here, I guess it'll be me that rises to the top. We don't come on a line because it worked out. But if it doesn't work out, yeah, it's a weird fine line And even as I hear your story, everything's a spectrum, right? I can see my own life really riding a little bit of a similar way, but just not reaching those heights. Even my vision of being a professional runner, that was kind of an early flavor of that for me. Yeah, that was at least backed up by some Really concrete evidence that it was a possibility. There's still a possibility, right? Even though it's always like less than one percent, ever really make it big in anything, even relating to like artwork, right? It's the same thing. So yeah, that was definitely going on and it was taking new form. And how many months would you say that period was A few months throughout the fall. So just feeling really kind of energized with this new pursuit oring other things. And then what's kind of the next step? I like to share this specific example. You know the movie Inside Out, off course you guys know Inside out, right? Fantastic movie. I saw this movie at some point during this time. I think it had come out some point And I remember just sitting in this theater and I'm watching it and you know it's about these cartoon characters in the main character's head. Each color represents a certain emotion. I remember watching this and I'm starting to think, arere they little beings inside my head controlling me? Who is controlling me? Who am I And this started to be some bizarre thinking which I would say resembled an early sign of psychosis. So that was starting to come into play. And colors take on some really heightened relevance for you. Break down what's happening with colors at that point. I would get to the point where as my symptoms kind of worsened throughout the fall semester and then into the spring semester, colors and patterns definitely started to capture my attention in a certain way and is not Schizo related illnesses, red became a sign of danger, which, you know, is but it was it' different for me. It was like when I see red, I'm literally in danger. and it could be just, you know, like a book or something like that. Wild that you put red on the cover of your boat. That was my idea.. intntentional. It was intentional becausecause I really wanted to be forward with it. I wanted to just own it and I wanted to really portray that Ioping that I'm comfortable it. It's like if you see red, it's a sign that something bad is going to happen or is it imminent danger? It's hard to really justify any logic in psychosis states. It varied. One specific example, even when I was driving, if I saw a red car on the highway, I'd have to stay behind it because if I passed it, it might start following you or something. might be some of danger or risk is going to happen if I I pass the car. D a little. Everyone's a go morbid than the other one Yeah. When did the hallucinations start? These are arbitrary definitions. like the emphasis on the colors is already some interesting for of a hallucination but very low grade. A it could also be considered a delusion of reference where you're interpreting something in your environment as of special meaning to you. But yeah, there's a combination of hallucination and delusions going on simultaneously. I do w to take one second because I thought it was a really great definition to know as we go forward. It was hallucinations are defined as internal generated voices or images Your brain labels is coming from the outside world Like if you can really think that through, it originated, it was your own concoction, but you seem to receive it from the outside world. So this is how the breakdown of reality is occurring. These things you've generated you think you're witnessing. Typically the five senses, right? touch tactile hallucinations smell as olfactory hallucinations and then you have the visual and the auditory And then what wass the last sense taste. I've never even considered, when I think of hallucinations, I only think of people hearing voices auditory or seeing things. I've never thought taste or touch. Did you experience any of those? I definitely did at some point, yeah. I experienced all of them at various points. I think when it became a lot more severe later on in my story, it was all things Yeah So I guess a couple of the touchstones along this route are like You see glittering gold running through your veins? Yeah, at some point, it's a blister on my toe, but I'm thinking that I'm a god at that point. That was pretty later on and when I was at a very severe level. So I thought it was gold. I thought my blood was gold. Yes. When you watch TV, you're seeing naked gods dance on TV Yeah, commercials, the visualness from our screens, maybe even the phones was completely altered to what it was actually being on screen. Yeah. When you experience it, is the frontal lobe pressure testing this and saying like, well, hold on, this can't be happening. O is that voice gone That was gone. That's gone. But do you know enough to like know not to tell anyone else? Being in that state, it was just honestly, like a completely different person, completely different identity. I feel I actually lost my identity at some point where I was like nothing. But you were a Godd at some point. I was a God, I was Jesus. I was I think Lucifer at some point. Wow. But were you telling people that? I guess that's my quest. How you tell a professor which causes your first kind of red flag you should should. But at some point, I mean, I want to be saying it because keeping it under wraps is the scary part. Yeah, and I had a conversation with my dad about my theory. There was a delusional narrative that was happening. and I was vocal about certain things, but also like not and I don't really know why. Yeah, yeah. But that delusional narrative, if it related to what I was determined to do, which was write a sentence to discover the truth of the universe I was pretty vocal about that. And when his dad recounts this experience, it's so sweet. He's like, you know, he's gone to college. He's become really smart. I don't know. mayaybe what he's saying is true. You would think dad would focus on the merit of this story or the logic of it, but I would imagine in personally, dad's just going or I would be going Oh my child's entered a world, I might not be able to join him. I mean, who knows what he's going through when you're on that? Rant, you would think he'd be going that doesn't seem to make sense, but more he might be fan like Oh, no, are we going to have a relationship with this new egghead version of my son? Who knows what he's experiencing in that moment? Stay tuned for more ar There We are supported by All state Checking all state first could save you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking what the warning light means before pulling out of your driveway, you absolutely convinced yourself it was probably just a sensor thing right up until you were standing On the side of the road waiting for a tow. Yeahah, checking first is the right move. So check All state first for an auto quote. It could save you hundreds. and for fast, reliable help when you need it, add an all state roadside plan today. You're in good hands with All state. Potential savings vary insurance and rooadside assistance plans are subject to terms conditions and availability. inssurance provided by All state North America insurance company, Northbrook, Illinois Roadside assistance plans provided by All State Motor Club, Incorporated an All state affiliate Let's talk about a condition many people haven't heard of, and it turns out it's more common than you'd think Peroni's Dease or PD for short. PD can happen when scar tissue builds up under the skin of the penis. This can cause a curve with a bump during an erection, and for some men lead to pain during intimacy and may impact mental health. It may also lead to anger and frustration, depression, lowered self esteem, and even withdrawal from sexual activity and physical intimacy Because of this, some men could feel embarrassed or reluctant to talk about PD. The actual cause of PD isn't always known In some cases, it may be linked to a minor injury or repeated injuries during sex or other physical activity. The good news is PD is treatable. If you notice a curve with a bump, a trusted urology specialist can help diagnose it and walk you through your options, including non surgical treatment. To learn more about Peroni's disease Visit talkaboutpd. com This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. We've talked before about Rob building our website on Squarespace, and I bring it up again because it's a perfect example of what they do well. Rob had all the pieces, the content, the vision, the ideas, but he needed something to actually take all that and make it public facing. in Squarespace was that bridge? Maybe you're in the same spot. You've been developing something, a business, a skill set, a body of work It's been private. It's been yours, but at some point you're ready to put it out there, and that transition from private to public can feel like a huge leap. Squarespace makes it feel like a step. Beautiful templates, built in SEO, email campaigns, scheduling, analytics, everything you need to go from. I've been working on this to here it is, come find me All in one place, no code, no stitching together a bunch of different tools. So if you've been sitting on something and waiting for the right moment, this might be it. Head to squarespace. com slash DAax for a free trial. and when you're ready to launch, use offer code DAax to save ten percent off your first purchase of a website or domain. This episode is supported by Helix. All right, let's talk about something we both really care deeply about. Sleep. It's the most important thing. I've had my Helix mattress for years now and I genuinely think it's one of the best investments you can make for your home. Mine still feels just like it did when I first got it. Well, that's the thing. It's not one of those mattresses that caves in after six months. These things are built to last. And you know, I'm a side sleeper I ordered a side sleeper and I get hot. so I have cooling. and I can't tell you how much more comfortable it is to be in there not sweating and tossing and turning. Cooling is really important. I've read that you're supposed to sleep a little bit cold. So I also have cooling. And they have over twenty models, so it's not a one size fits all situation. You just go take their quiz and they match you to what actually works for your body Plus, they've got cooling upgrades, which heading into summer, non negotiable. Truly Go to helelixleep dot com slash armchair for twenty percent off. That's helelixleep dot com slash armchair for twenty percent off. Make sure you enter our show name after checkout so they know we sent you Helixleep dot com slash armchair in order of events When do you think you see your professor proclaim to the class that you are a prophet This is my spring semester. so let's taking humanities, right? Philosophy, studying human nature. And that's where this idea, you know, the idea of the screenplay It transformed into a theory to explain everything. There's kind of stimulating un theory for the universe. Yeah ye.ild wild line of thinking. I feel like it maybe a couple of weeks into that semester. I do meet with a professor because I had this burning idea about this theory and I wanted to talk to him about it. I always question like, what is a hallucination? what's a delusion? I never really know unless I go back talked, but basically I was given the task to create this one sentence summary and then I did that. I achieved what I thought I achieved. Probably couldn't wait to share that. As soon as I discovered it, it was a Thursday. I had humanities class and that's when I sharered with the professor And he called the police. I don't think he called the police. He connected me with someone at the university, a support person becausecause he'd noticed my bizarre behavior in class. Be after I write this sentence, I fold up a piece of paper and I put it onto his desk and I'm late to class by like a couple minutes 'cause I was focused on this It a big idea. Yeah' a casual big idea. Yeah. And I sit down and I'm like drawing out my theory now in like this bizarre cartoon that only makes sense to you. Yeah, piecing it together and he's watching this. He's definitely like, something is up. I'm to connect this student of mine with a support professional. so that when I got home that day, there was an email from him saying like I should go see this person and it's someone he trusted And at that point in that class, he talked about how I was the prophet. But that was an auditory hallucination. So probably you thought, oh, great, he's sending me to the next rung of the ladder. by which I'm going to disseminate this great truth I've discovered You don't know you're walking into a situation where someone's going to challenge your delusions. No, because he became a voice of sacred commands to some sense. So if he said, goo see this person, no question, No question in my mind because he had declared that I was the prophet. Yeah. It's obviously going to help you. Yeah. The result of this is you do get prescribed medicine, you're on a five day kind of hold. After that class, the next day is when a police officer shows up at my door. I think there was a support person at the college who made that call. and that's when I get taken to the emergency room and then into my first psychiatric hospitalization Do you remember what you thought was occurring while the police was taking you to a holding area? I did not think he was a police officer. I thought he was working for the professor. He actually did an amazing job. I commend this officer. He kept the situation de escalated. He worked with me. He didn't challenge me. I think he said something like the professor would want you to do this. All right. So he worked within my state of mind because he could clearly tell That I was very unwell and building that trust in that type of situation it's hard to do, but he did an amazing job. can ask quickly, how much sleep do you think you're getting in this period? I was not sleeping for days. I was not eating. I was also just not taking care of that basic physiological need. That was out the door. And smoking weed the whole time? It did fall off at some point, but I had been in the weeks leading up to this time, I was smoking reggularly, ye Okay, so You get a diagnosis in that five days. They kind of go back and forth between diagnoses, right? And this is sometimes a challenge because they say, o, maybe it's bipolar, maybe it's schizoaffective, maybe schizophrenia, maybe cannabis use disorder. They write you a prescription for zyrexia. Respiratol. Zyrexy comes second Is that antipsychotic? It's antipsychotic. And I remember a lot from this hospital visit, but I remember Before getting into the psychiatric unit, they had put me to sleep. They had injected me with ambient at the emergency room. So I had finally slept for like hours. right? So when I woke up, I was like in this very stunned state. Cobwebs were like in my mind. I couldn't even process what I had just gone through Well let alone explain it to them. How long was that chunk of time would you say that you were in the manic spell before you ended up in the hold You know, it definitely was a progression, I would say, probably at the highest point, maybe like a couple days. Mbe like a week. Okay. So you get out, Dad is informed. And how do you and dad process what just happened It's so interesting because I kind of go back to my typical state. I'm like all of a sudden, cohen again and just ready to get back to college class, back to my campus job. I mean, we have a meeting with a psychiatrist at the place who says I'm a good role model for the other patients needs to. 'cause I was very social. I'm kind of a social person. Social butterfly. A little I didn't want to take the medication. Any idea that I had someone in a psychiatric unit was like what I saw in movies going up P peopleople acting crazy, wild One floow over the Cuck's nest. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, you're like, that's not me. That's not me. I did not want to be associated with mental illness at all. So therefore I also did not want the medication. I agreed to take it so I'd get out of the hospital. But as soon as I left, I stopped taking it. and my dad, he agreed his well. And he himself had decided to not take the medication that was offered to him with the bipolar diagnosis. Yeah, he'd kind of always had some sense of not wanting to partake in that level of treatment, right? But he didn't really see you in your manic He did in a way, but I don't think he knew what was going on. So it's just kind of seeing me act bizarre and all this, but not really understanding what I'm actually going through. Okay, so what's the timeline between then in your dad's kitchen I think it was about a month in between those two times. Were you allowed to go back to college Yes, Th those five days happened during spring break. Very convenient You. What a coincidence. It was almost like it was a sign. A couple of weeks go by, I'm just kind of like my typical self. and then I remember going to play a show at a bar with my friend Finn. I play the drums, he plays guitar and we stayed at one of his buddyies' house. I remember waking up at that house and for some reason I brought my humanity's homework with me, becausecause I was like, I'm gonna do homework. and I was studying Sigmund Freid's civilization of its discontent. And I remember weemberre sitting in the kitchen reading the book and he talks about this oceanic feeling. I don't know if you're familiar with oceanic feeling term. No. Freord is struggling with the concept because it talks about this feeling with The universe, this kind of like oceanic like h, right? In some sense. Connection. Connection, spiritualre all moving together. It's kind of like this flow. and for it is struggling understanding the science behind that. But I read this concept, I'm like, that's what I was experiencing before the hospital.. That was that feeling. I remember as soon as I read about it, I'd stored my work in my backpack, the work that I hadd done in my manic, the sentence, there was a blue folder actually in which I kept all these paragraphs, all these writings For some reason, I just kept it with me, but I didn never opened it until that point But then once I start reading it, that's when I was basically all back in. Someone shows up in the kitchen in the morning, there's someone at the house. I don't know who it was who. I would later associate with Jesus because he had like this long hair and this flow I was back in it at that moment Yeah When you break the window of the So how the timeline went when I regain my belief that I'm the prophet that I have to do this Mission, I had my truth, I had the sentence and I want to share it with the world. You have it memorized? Yes, yes, I do. Is it triggering to It's not. What is the sentence? So the sentence wasise, eternal life occurs when you balance thinking and doing while feeling both I don't know that it unlocks the truth to the universe, but it is a very nice sentence. I think it was my mind's way of trying to find some wellness comfort in the existential portion of my experience, which is interesting. Okay, so you leave the house. A couple things go down. I actually end up doue back in the hospital again. Be the incident, before breaking the window, I end up back in the hospital and I would consider myself being in crisis at this high severity of psychosis for about a week And I had this idea like now that I had my theory, I had to share it with the world. I had created a Facebook page to do that because social media had big thing at the right exact time in my life. I also thought that I had to marry my ex girlfriends. I would show up at this church with the big red doors thinking that my ex girlfriend was just gonna be there to marry me it went through often right justust believing that it was going to happen. A couple of days go on and it was a Thursday night. I go there at like two o'clock in the morning. I like sneak out of the house. A actuallyually I think my dad did wake up at that time because as soon as I got to the church, cop cars are there. He had like knew I was going because I'd said something prior to this. So I get there and they take me back to the hospital. I go back to the emergency room and it's kind of similar to the first time where I finally sleep And I wake up and I'm kind of in this hazy state. They probably gave you IV medication would be maybe not. This one's a little fuzzier. There's a common knowledge that the more often you experience psychosis, the more it's harder to come back and processes. So time was a little bit more fuzzy for me. And you know, I've read the medical records from this hospital visit It's so strange because I'm saying things like I'm excited to graduate. I'm excited to go on to a professional job. I don't remember any of that. Yeah. What I remember is saying something about color coordination. So it's almost like psychosis dominated my consciousness and yet a part of me was still there. Yeah, man, how do you unravel Yeah, you have a memory of what was happening and there's a record of what was happening. off course, they don't match. That's the whole point of the psychosis. also what you were saying. you were seeming normal. So then they're going to be like, o, well, I guess he's not that bad. Let him out. Yeah. You're also in the emergency room and you're trying to work through the highest probability explanation. It's like this dude has't slobed This dude's probably been on mh or this dude's been on m or like you're not going to jump to he has one of the rarer conditions. Yeah, notot necessarily. I mean, or maybe they do, but I can see where you would also get easily mis n I don't blame anyone. I mean, I've showed those records to colleagues of mine you being a social worker say like, we would have let you go too. Yeah O. So I get out and I was pretty much still in severe psychosis. Unlike the first hospital where I kind of reverted back to my typical self, this time I did not. And it was only one night too. I was there for one night. Could they have justified keeping me there just knowing how early that I was starting to experience the symptoms? Maybe, but I like to say that the system worked in getting me to a place where supp was possible, but it founded give me that actual support when I was there. So I get out And I'm immediately back on my mission and my theory. And three days later, is when I tried to come my dad I think people would love to know What in your mind could convince you I must slash dad's throat So You know I had this Facebook page when Nash staring my theory I was supposed to get married on Sunday before that day. It happened on a Monday. And the way that psychosis work it justifies when things go wrong. There's always a way to justify, att least that was my experience, so I can't speak to everyone's. Even though I had gone to the church several times and my ex girlfriend was never there because she was never gonna to marry me, I was like, o, Sunday is the day. Don't that makes sense because it's God's day.ure. Why would I get married on a Sunday? So I go there at like ne o'clock the morning, So again still not sleep. And I go through this very bizarre experience of like a self sacrifice. I mean there wild shit happening in my mind and just in my mind. But basically I don't get married. So now I'm lost. I'm starting to become lost. The things are not lining up in the way that they should be. Yes. And I'm starting to get really confused, scared, scared lookingooking for signs in any way that would make sense to me. Yeah So that day on Monday, I was supposed to go to school work and I don't. I do go back to the church thinking once more, maybe she'll be there. She's not. so I go home And on my way home is when I had this idea back to colors that red was Satan and I had to remove all the red things in my car. So I stopp at this restaurant called Steve's Place There was this connection to my uncle and Stehven with this place for some reason. And there's also like a white and red building. When I break into this restaurant, I throw all my red stuff into this place and I bleed red. A lot of things happen that just continue to foster this uncertainty and confusion about what I was supposed to do with my mission Right And then you go home and you're in there before dad or dad's there before you'. I'm there before my dad. You know, I'd stopped at this like old junkyard outside of town to dispose my car because I couldn't get the tall lights off because they were red. Yeah. So my grandma picks me up, She takes me there and she tells my dad, so my dad shows up. W, I'm already there. How does your dad look to you? What is he representing to you? So being a fuel driver, you know, he often wore black pants and black shirt under his uniform. He's wearing these black clothes and also black wasood associated with evil and demons. W, we're literally all wearing black today. You're right. He was frustrated, right? because I wasn't doing what I was supposed to do I wasn't going's. He's so scared. He's so uncertain him. He loves you so much. He's taking you to all the places. Yeah. And here I am just almost throwing it away to some degree. So he's frustrated and justifiably sole. But he has these red cheeks, right? Because he's getting mad. 'causeuse he's mad. Yeah. When I talk about intervening when someone's in crisis, right? de escalation is one of the top things that is very key to helping someone in that type of state. and my dad did the opposite. Sure That wasn't the only sign. I was on my phone, again, going back to this theory and there was several things that happened on the phone that brought me to that state of mind. But you're convinced your father has been taken over byatan. And do you think you're going to liberate your father by killing him? or you might not even be remember that? There was two specific signs on my phone that led to me thinking that the devil was in my dad in combination with his black uniform and cheeks. It was a random Facebook message that literally said Satan. And this was a real message. L I went back and I pulled this message from the Facebook profile Yeah And it was real. It was just some coincidental message. Oh my God. Sometimes strange shit just fucking happen. Yeah. So there was that message. and then there was another image just on my Facebook feed that was like someone smashing their hands on someone else's head and there angry ghost was flying out from this person And there was some like yellow and orange colors knew that action. So I connected the dots while my psychosis connected the dots. I had to save the world with my theory. devils in the pict devil has to go You The devil was inside my dad Can you see a knife white handle, you know, had like this holiness aspect to it. So I was like, that had to be the knife that I would use I didn't want to kill my dad. And when I read the police records after this, I say this in my statemach. I did not I wanted sa us kill Satan. I'm going to kill Satan to save us. Yeah So my intention was never hurt my dad. Yeah. But that's just how my psychosis narrative ended up So you grab the knife and you go at, Dad I make some motion behind him. I'm also really troubled at this moment too I'm like battling with this idea of killing him.'s like, this can't be the next step. Like I'm really challenged by this. Yeah. This is the biblical moment where the guy has to kill his son to prove his love to God. It's like that test. Basically. Yes. That's how it felt. It's like this is the ultimate test. I always pace it back and forth saying this can't be the next step, this can't be the next step. you know, have the knife at some point, you knife It gets out of my hand. I start finding something else. My dad was remodeling at the time, so there was drills and stuff in the house, but none of it was white. It was all red or black. So I had to use that knife tellell us about the physical struggle that happens. we're about the same height. He might be a little shorter than me now, but he was definitely bigger, stronger. V Gons heavier, being a laborer for all his life. I was still an athletic kid, but he's stronger. and he's dad. He's got dads strength. He does. He does have dad's strength. Now you have d. I do, I do Thats dad bodge, you know. Yeah so we start to fight and He fights me off. I think he punches me at some point. At some point we tumble onto the ground. in that heat of the moment, I just for some reason bit his ear as like a reaction to like losing the battle. He bit his ear lobe off. The piece of his ear lobe off right at the bottom. he has this he today. He and Holyfield have a lot to talk about. they ever run into each other. And then, you know, at some point, I have to bnd at his throat I keep coming at him. I'm not even me. It's life or death and for the whole universe. Yeah. at some point I have the blade at his throat and he's blocking it with his thumb. And at some point, he's just like, I gott to get out of here. and he does any bolts. His hand gets cut pretty bad. He then runs out of the house. He runs out of the house And I had this moment of like did I just do? You did have a little snap of clarity?ittle snap of clarity. and I was like, holy shit, did I actually do that? And I run out of the house, I'm looking for him because I'm like, sorry dad, I'm sorry. And I go out by our dog cage to look at my dog. He was a cute little husky that we grew up with. And that's when the police arrived Also grandma was here during this whole thing. Grandma was there the whole time. And actually at some point, when she was trying to stop me from completing my mission. I had a thought that I had to kill her.. She was wearing a green shirt. She's wearing a green shirt Okay, And that's good. Green was good Yeah, yeah This is a total digression, but the brain is so fucking fascinating. It's just so endlessly fascinating. becauseuse I have had a couple of those moments of complete clarity when clarity should be completely impossible. with like my level of inebreriation, right? Yeah. Or like I got in this situation where a guy tried to mug me and I was on top of him in the street in Santa Monica at three in the morning. There's nowhere to break it up. I'm afraid he's got a gun. I'm banging his head in the ground. and I was hammered And I all of a sudden like a bolt of light and I was like, oh, you're killing someone. This is that thing that happens and you're doing it and you need to stand up and leave. But it's like I don't know where that bolt came from like super clarity of like, Oh, this is happening. G away from this. It's wild. And it happened again right after this moment because when I'd gone out to the dog cage, police officers were pointing their guns at me. They were ready to arrest me. They're like, raaise your hands, raaise your hands because that's what they do. And I did, right? Instead of running because they're wearing black, inststead of bolting, I had this moment of raise my hands, get them up And thankfully, I did because I think if I didn't if I ran not be hearing. Yeah, if you're still holding the knife. There's eighty ways this could have gotten worse and worse and worse. It's really a miracle. A terrible miracle that brought you here and a terrible miracle that keeps you f. Yeah ye. And you're very good about at the beginning of the book, listing, like there's so many people that it didn't go that way. There are In the US, three hundred parents a year are killed by their kids. It's two percent of all homicides Really, I would never have Gess that. And you go into it and that's how I want to end this is like all the things we should know and how we help deal with all this, But it makes so much sense because your interaction with your family is going to be the most interaction you have. Yeah. You know, there's all these different reasons why In a bizarre way, it's kind of predictable. Anyways, you are arrested and you're put in jail. Tell me what happens after that. Yeah, so I think I'm on my way to hell. The mission continues basically, but I'm going to hell. I failed the mission. There's glimmers of hope in Jal where. I think I can escape. I think I can fight Satan. And I mean at that point I'm just I experien seeing so many hallucinations and delusions just for about a week into jail, solitary confinement. At some point, I think I'm on the outside of the universe and I see the universe on the floor. I wouldn't eat because the food smelled like dead bodies. Here comes the gusatory and the factory. Y delusions. Oh man. And I think time had a big factor in me coming Also, like I remember one of the correctional officers giving me a book about an architect I never remember what the name of the book was. I would love to find it again. But I remember starting to read that book in solitary confinement. and I like to think that I started to really ground my thoughts and just maybe help me come back to realize where I was. And when did they start medication on you? So it took a while to get prescribed. You know, the psychiatrist there had checked in on me often throughout that week. and basically once they realized was back to myselfl. I could vocalize that I'm in jail Because they couldpt askking me a question, Do you know where you are? Do you know where you are? Right When I could finally say, I'm in jail, that was ass signed to them like, okay, he's coming back. They moved me to a general population area so I could get out of my cell, interact with the other people in the jail. And that's when I started to take the medication And at that point I had huge cognitive shift in my mind because I was like Rck bottom, I was like, holy fuck. I'm gonna do my hardest to understand why it happened because I don't ever want to happen again. Yeah, my full mission now in life has to be preventing that from occurring again. Okay, at this point There's a potential of probably ten years in prison on the table. Two felonies. Yeah. One for breaking that window, a criminal mischief and the other one was an assault That's my dad. a felony with my dad I would have fortunately. because your father wouldn't press charges, right? My father didn't want to press chargees. I feel like he felt like he was pushed to do that. He writes me a letter without his name because we had an orrder of protection too. He's still Obviously going through his own trauma challenge, but he's still more than willing to help me get out of jail. It's really interesting, like had I heard this story before I had kids, I'd have one opinion and then hearing the story having kids. All of it makes so much sense to me like Yeah, either of my daughters could try to kill me And one hundred percent the next day I would be there to help them get out. I just couldn't ever into Let's throw them away It would be impossible. And all I would feel is sadness and pain and hurt for them, not really anger and defensiveness, you know? Yeah That's how my dad fll. unconditional love. He really stuck by my side. and I thought at that time, like he was never going talk to me again. I was terrified. You've come out of this thing. You know how vulnerable you are now. You know, it's anyone who's got a disease that is terminal that comes into remissions. like you justve with this thing hovering over your head. So it's like you're dealing with that reality, but then even P probablyably worse than there's like I tried to kill this man I love more than anything There's been nothing, but looving to me, haveave I ruined that forever? That piece to me feels as scary as the other thing that's looming. Yeah and honestly, I had gotten several letters from my family and friends. That first day I came back and into the general population cell. I just remembered reading all through these letters I'm bawling because I'm just like There's still hope here. I was not feeling very hopeful, but those letters made The biggest difference? Yeah. It's so important and love people when they're at their very worst. Tell them. Yeah ye, yeah, yeah. So you Get out in thirty days. Yeah, which is amazing in of itself ' it didn't have to. The psychiatrist that I'm seeing is amazing. She's balancing this firmness with me like kid, you're in the fucking deep water here, but also a very empathetic and caring nature because she really understood seeing me in this cell. Yeah, this isn't your fault, but it is your fucking responsibility that just brought me to a point where I was like I can do this and I get out of jail after thirty days And I'm ready to start a new. Who's in the parking lot So when I go to the courthouse, you know, I'm chained up, I'm in a green uniform, I stand before the judge and I agree to everything, whatever he had said. In that moment I was just like, I don't even remember what he was saying for the most part, but I'm not sure if I'm leaving. I don't know. I'm just lost. At some point, an officer comes by, unchains me and lets me out the door. and it's a sunny day in ourarks small little town There's my dad just standing by the car. Wh amg. Yeah, they share a big hg Yeah, and the story has so many people Miracles, beautiful things mixed with tragedy. I see the scar on his ears. Oh and I'm just like, holy shit that really happened. But yeah, he came in for a hug. Oh dude. Oh man Now here's a piece of the story that I didn't see coming and I have to say makes me nervous because I know some people who have a lot of things and they won't take their medication, and it drives me insane. So you decided to wan off the medication. I was very hesitant on doing that. So basically my conditional discharge was I had to see substance use group therapy, substance use counselor, nurse practitioner, mental health counselor. four things every week. I didn't even need to be told to do that. I was like all about it. I was like, I'm going to take full advantage of all these resources in my community. And it was actually my nurse practitioner. I'm taking ten milligrams of xyprexa start me that in jail. So I'm continuing to take that. You know, he as at some point an idea to potentially wean me off. Could I ask you is it miserable being on that medication? Yeah, so when I was taking it, it reduced my creative thoughts. It made me feel sedated all the time, like struggling to think and foggy. L definitely. I don't think anyone wants to be on medication. I guess for us on the outside, we're constantly looking at everyone going like, okay, you're foggy versus the like we're a little bit like, you know, fucky If if I'm being dead honest and probably a lot of people are listening they'll feel this way it's like tough shit versus, you know, so I don't know. I just want to deal with that. I think a lot of people will be curious about that. Yeah, and I still get that. But how I view medication and how I learned through that in my therapy was that it's a very an effective tool to kind of being a place where To me, what was most important to my recovery was the therapy, talking through it, learning the skills, learning about the symptoms, having these terms, having this knowledge and practicing with it. I was hesitant to go off medication, but I would have not done that without a professional's guidance. That is very, very important. So since he was willing to work in that space, all my treatment providers knew that I was tapering starting to taper off. Yeah. I And is it fair to say in this process, you're also learning these actually don't come out of nowhere. Sleep is an enormous piece that's integrated in this your diet using weed. You're learning like, oh, There are a lot of things lead up to this. Is that fair to say? Yeah. I would use the eight dimensions of wellness. I'm not sure if you're familiar. But it's spiritual wellness, intellectual wellness, physical wellness, emotional wellness It It's a lot.. It's a lot. It's a lot. But I remember you have the mental illness to diagnosis, the DSM five, which gives you this language to help you understand these symptoms. That's one part of it. And then you just have general mental health and wellness where like you're working on making sure that you feel like you're financially well. you're physically well and that you kind of feel good in those spaces as well, because when you start to lose some of those things, they add stress, they add pressure. Yeah, stress is the one I left out that's huge. Y Stress was a big trigger. When I'm under high pressure and stress is when I start to really feel unwell. Stay tuned for more arm chair experts. If you dare This episode is sponsored by Better Help So Monica, here's something that really stuck with me. BetterHelp's twenty twenty six state of stigma report surveyed two thousand Americans and revealed that eighty five percent of Americans believe getting support is wise. Yet seventy four percent say society discourages people from doing so. That's a huge gap. Most of us agree therapy is a good thing, but there's still something holding some people back from actually going Right. And I think that's where just talking about it, normalizing it makes a difference. I mean, as you know, I'm I obsessed with thepy I've been in it consistently for years and years and years. and I have said this and I shouldn't say it, but I do think if you're struggling and you've been struggling for a while and you haven't sought therapy, I judge you a little bit. Oh Okay ye I know what I'm not And I gott to go to therapy to work on that, you know, but also there are options for you. You can help yourself And betteretter Help makes that first step easier. They match you with a licensed therapist based on your needs. and with over thirty thousand therapists and twelve plus years of experience, they typically get the match right the first time Don't let stigma stand in the way of support. Start therapy with betterter Help. Sign up and get ten percent off at betterterhelp d. com slash DAax. That's betterhlp d. com slash DAax This episode is brought to you by Sopfi all in one finance app where you can bank, borrow, and invest all in one place. Let's talk bank accounts for a second. The average bank savings rate is zero point three nine percent in interest. You're earning pennies on your savings, but it does not have to be that way. With so fari high yield checking and savings, the money barely making moves sitting in your savings account can earn over eight times the national average savings rate with eligible direct deposit. No account or overdraft fees, which feels rare these days. You can get your paycheck up to two days early, perfect for getting ahead of a bill or grabbing what you need right when you need it. Plus, get up to a three hundred dollars welcome bonus when you sign up with eligible direct deposit Sign up for soFi checking and savings at sofi. com slash armhare. SoOFI chehecking and savings is offered through SFI Bank NA member FDIC Terms Apply This episode is brought to you by service Now I have my dream job. I get to talk to folks I admire like crazy and ask them virtually any question that I want to. I can't imagine a better way to spend my time, But even dream jobs have some not so dreamy parts, the stuff that gets in the way of the actual work. Now that's where service now's AI specialists come in They don't just tell you what you should do about your busy work, they actually do it. Start to finish. case is closed, requests handled, no extra work for you. So you and your team can focus on what matters most, which for me is, are they obsessed with maail bodies on the same level as I am? They never are. To learn how to put AI to work for people Visit serviceNow. com We get support from zip Recruitero get recruit in I'm constantly looking for ways to call back time in my day. I've got the meal prep dial, the grocery delivery locked in, the whole morning routine down to a science. We all have our own time saving hacks for everyday life, but if you're a business owner, how can you save time hiring? Zip Recruiter. They have a new feature that quickly shows you the most interested, qualified candidates first So you're not buried in a pile of applications from people who aren't even the right fit. Their matching technology is seriously powerful, and candidates can actually explain in their own words why they're interested in your job. That context up frront saves so much back and forth. There's a reason they're the number one rated hiring site on G two. Save time and meet great candidates sooner With Zip Recriter. fourour out of five employers who post on Zip Recruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free at ziprecriter. com slash staxs. That's Ziprecruiter d. com slash stackax. Meet your match on Zip Recruiter. So You start applying all these things and then you get kind of a list of things to look out for. likeike can you be objectively good at recognizing when It's slowly starting and what's been your because that was ten years ago the situation with your dad? Yep. Yeah from leaving and a year afterwards titrating off of the medication and having like a game plan. What's been the ride over those nine years with that approach? Recovery is hard work. It's not easy. and it's a never ending process change, internal change and constant diligence. NAA we say you get a daily reprieve. I actually have this tattoo on my arm, right? It's the mental health ribbon and it's my daily reminder to always think about my mental health And that's how I approach it, right? The skills that I was learning in therapy, I continued to go on to practice them. And when I got to grad school, you had been kicked out of your school, we should say. Oh yes. compleompletely kicked out of your school. Epelled. ye. And are you even nervous to start that process again? Like, will that be another trigger? Will I get stressed in returning? I don't know how one evaluates which things are gonna be too much I mean, yeah, I had to go before the college and testify. and I remember being actually triggered in the moment because it's a corporate feel. peopleeople in black suits and microphones on the table and I have to sit here and tell my story so I can get back into college and finally finish my undergrad degree, right Yeah And my dad has to do it with me, and he does it though and he breaks down, I get back in. It was triggering in the moment. It was definitely Not easy, but I was doing the work to do what I had to do to get my life back on track. It's funny too, how your life makes sense in reflection only, You know, this whole running historory, this is where that comes into play. It's like you have lots of experience with extreme dedication and routineized behavior. This isn't your first go with You know how to be disciplined if you're N That I attribute to my athletic identity, that drive that character to just be dedicated to something. push through pain, push through a discomfort And that definitely helped to me on that pass. So you end up yeah, you get a master's, you become a social worker Have you had any periods where you've had to return to the medication? In my graduate school, the first sign of a mental health challenge. What did I immediately do, go see a therapist I always kept the medication door open. It's a very important tool. I never would ever push against that. But my first step was to see a therapist, do what I loved, which was to talk about what I was going through. So that's what I did in grad school when I started to be really challenged because there was a lot of stress and pressure. I had an on campus job, like master's in social work. It can be demanding. A lot of classes I don't go back on medication, but there is when I get ready to graduate with my master's degree I'm struggling to find a job. I had like a dozen interviews probably, and I just could not get a job Part of me I always felt it was like these news articles. We didn't talk about the news articles, but after the incident, you know my name was in the headlines, this man who bit off his dad's ear, crazy person. There was seven articles. So like, I'm really struggling with this job search. I think it's that. I think it's multiple things. and there was a time I had actually had to move back home to my dad's house after graduating, and I was really defeated because I had done all this work And financial wellness was a very important point. You need a job right?ob. So I was like very stressed out and I got to another crisis point at this moment where I was willing to take myself to the hospital. Okay good. Of course, the paradox of it all is like, you need your mind to evaluate whether you're losing your mind. It's very tenuous. Yeah. And I was willing to go back on medication when I had kind of got to the point where It's actually a very touching story. So I actually had a job interview where I went to grad school. It was a seven hour drive from my home. I' got the hint that my interview didn't go so well. And this was after twelve failed interviews. so I was like, I'm not going get this job. And I'm driving home on this long drive. It's late at night and I'm starting to fester everything. I'm having rapid thoughts about everything that was going wrong in every single interview, J bam bam, bam. I get home's late at night. I say good nnight to my dad. I didn't want to be vulnerable with him. I was not in the headspace to open up about what I was going through. I was like, I'm gonna go straight to bed. and I go into my bedroom and I can't sleep. Yeah You're ruminating Ruminating And at like three o'clock in the morning, I look at my alarm clock and I'm just like, holy shit, I should be sleeping right now. This is not good. And then there's a light coming through my window from my neighbors' and it's a bit too symmetrical. And I'm just like, I'm really, really unwell. Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah. So that's when I was like, I want to go to the hospital? Yeah for you I thought about waking up my dad, I thought about calling my friend Finn, but that shame and stigma. I had also like woked up my dad late at night before during all of this. So I was like, I feel like he's gonna to be afraid and it's not gonna go well So I did what I knew I could do, which was mindfulness meditation. I had practicice this, right? Over the years, this is three or so years after the incident at this point. So I've gone through this process. And I was aware of these symptoms, right? At some point, I may have not been able to be aware of it, but I was aware of it. and I was able to catch it in the moment. and I did what I knew what I could do. I put on my headphones, I put on an instrumental playlist, and I meditated my hands at my chest because you were dysregulated, extxtremely dysregulated. and there's all kinds of tools to get regulated and this is one of them. And I fall asleep for like a couple hours. and then I wake up at like six AM and I'm still feeling like this it's feeling like I something. So I go to the living room I waave my dad to wake up I'm thinking about how I want to approach this with my dad because I want to tell him This is, you know, keep in mind the same space where everything happens. Yeah So he sits down and before he turns on the TV, ' he always did that, I was like, Dad, I need to tell you something. And I said, I'm very unwell. I do not feel good. Yeah, goodood for you. Yeah And it was clear to me in my dad's response that he had done some work with his mental health as well, because he kept the space de escalated, he worked with me He helped me find a resource that actually happened to be right in my community where I could access crisis intervention therapy. Which I would compare to like urgent care.. I didn't have to go to the hospital, but I could get a therapy appointment with a crisis therapist in a couple hours. So I go there and it turns out I didn't have to go to the hospital. I just to make my off my priority again. Basically, his instruction was to just focus on your day to day chores like your sleep chores, go for a run if you can, do that for a couple of weeks. Forget about the job because that was the big stressor. Yeah. I'm always astounded by how much overlap there is with all these things. They seem so different, but like this is the same roadmap for addiction, right? whichich is like there'll be all these guys' be like, well, I can't go to me because I have X,Y or Z or I got my kids this and I have this work thing And it's like Yeah, but you'll have none of that shit permanently if you don't make this number one priority. That stuff is only a result of you keepeing this number one priority in check because the other stuff you think you need to miss it for, you'll lose. Yeah. It's hard to get us to accept that. That's hard to accept. This is so hard. Wow. So and just doing that, the refocusing fuck the job. We're not getting anything if we don't get right. was a for you because you were able to recognize like it's happening and I got to get on the right track. I St still kept the medication door open there, right? I was like one of the first things I actually said to the cris therapist is like, I'm to go back on MedDs. G me something. He held back. He wass like, let's try this first. I said to see him weekly. He was monitoring me and we were working together and I didn't have to go back on Meds. And then a few weeks later, I had another job interview. not a few weeks. It was probably a couple months at this point I had another job interview and then I got the job. And now you work for the New York state Mental health Office of mental Health. have mental health. So I do suicide prevention. I work more in like a system, you know statewide approach to designing programming, advocacy. That's just how my mind operates. I like to think in systems. But you know, being the Officice of mental Health they have an office around peure specialists, which is people with lived experience who can help provide another valued support system for someone Aside from your traditional clinical support. Yeah, like a sponsor in some ways. Yeah. There's many spaces to go here. and I'm just happy to be a professional in this space. Yeah. And now you also do public speaking and you're a huge advocate to spread awareness. So what is your approach? I think you're great and you should list some of them As much as you focus on like some of the aces in childhood, you're very readily listing All the many lucky things that were happening in your life The first time I shared my story, I wrote a blog post for the National Allines of Mental Illness. I actually mainly did that because of those news articles because I wanted to regain who I was. Re. And that kind of turned into like when I did that, I got all these responses from people that were like So like I didn't go in that direct service work, but I was starting to experiencing the impact of being vulnerable in the public space. And that kind of started to fuel this drive for me to share my story in much greater depth. And that's kind of how I ended up with, you the book. Well and you reached out to a guy who had written a book about his brother killing their mother. Vince Gernada, incredible man. when I reached out to him, I was at some draft in my book. And when I read his book because it had just come out, I just related so much to his story. although he brings a very different brother perspective, but I was like, I gott to reach out to him and I did. And I did not expect a response. you know, Cold calls, you never get responses that often O he responded, and we connected, we met, and we just had this great bond And he ended up writing a beautiful forwward to your book. He became another role model for me. And when I think throughout my story, I my dad has always been consistent, but Coach Dan was a role model. The psychiatrist in Jail was a role model. The person who's my supervisor in my master's degree my job on campus was a role model, and Vince became my next role model. And your best friend? And my best friend. Y And I'll add The other siblings that lived in the other houses with less resources, someome end up in jail. They had a rough road. a lot of your siblings. yeah. Yeah, they did. I mean, I won't go into a lot of details about their experienence, but there's been a history of mental illness, addiction I've gotten to a position where I've had a lot of success and I think There's a great privilege in my story that I had at and running that helped my trajectory as compared to my siblings. Not every kid finds hope. Right Yeah. Yeah. Do we have any sense of what percentage of the population' wrestling with this? One in five experience mental illness at some point in their life. I don't know the exact percentage of psychosis. I think it's a smaller percentage, right? It's usually not common.. Pretty uncommon. And then going towards like the violent aspects, right? becausecause that's a unique part four percent, I think is a number that says that kind of results in some. Yeah. On four percent of people with delusions and psychosis will be violent. But they tend to get the most attention. R. Yeah. So I don't think people need to be overly alarmed about that aspect. Aain, it's a very small percentage, but for the people who are listening who have someone on the because yes, as rare as it is, I know two people they haven't gotten violent but they left for months and done stuff. you're like, what is happening? Yeah. And so all the people in this fear, if you people on to do with addiction, no one knows what to do in the medication issue and all this st like what do you advise people who might have a loved one in this situation? What's the best approach? I get this question when I do solve this for us I dont know presentations I get a lot of parents. reach out to me and it's always the most difficult situations and I'm just like I don't have an easy answer. Well, de escalation, right there. That's a good thing to have heard. Yeah. and maybe even indulging the delusions while we get you to the safe place. L Th are kind of simple things that I think maybe are helpful to know. Definitely. and I think I try to be that role model. That source of inspiration is a peer with lived experience who, you know, if someone is going through this and they hear my story or someone else's successful story may they'll potentially come realization that they need help. It's a treatable condition. I find the system to be very Annoying in that so much of the mental health space is voluntary. L you have to check yourself into places. unless something has escalated to this very scary thing, it's frustrating because as we were just saying, your brain has to tell you that you're in trouble and when you're deep in the psychosis It's not going to do that, thenen they're not going to check themselves in and I just hate The powerlessness of it. Exactly. Both my hospitalizations were involuntary. I didn't want to go there. Yeah. I immediately resented that. It created this wall that I was just like, fuck no. It's such a complicated scenario because, you know, I was driving around one hundred miles per hour because I believe the universe protected me You can't do that. Yeah. Like if a police car chased me, I don't know what would have happened. My story could have been very different. And this was before the incident, right? The violent aspect was only one result, but many other things could have happened before that It's something I think we're still figuring out how to approach this because it's super complex. It is Yeah, you also have to protect individuals against the state from willing nillily being able to take people, you know, there's you know There's a lot of things you're weighing against one another. When police are involved, it does seem like it gets taken ious which is something to maybe consider. And I think if you look at the history of psychiatry and this where like lobotomies were, you know going back at the cuckoo's nest. Yeah It doesn't have a great history in this space. I think we made a lot of progress in the community mental health space. I just think it's such a long term game to some degree to where we've gotten to a place People can be open with the most severe incisis and get the help that they need and not be shamed by it. And not being ye excommunicated from society is huge You're like one of the first alcoholics to be in public saying, yeah, I'm a recovering alcoholic. No one did that in the fifties. and now no one has a problem doing that. And I would hope that's exactly where we're trending with this and the sociopathy and all of it. All of it. All of it, ye What a rebound dude, so you've been with a woman now for three or four years. Yeah. You had to tell her, you're on a date and you're like, I got to get out in front of this. She's gonna Google me. Yeah. I never truly felt that my ability to overcome The trauma and find my resilience was really valued. It was always the opposite where people would hear my story and they ameca I'm too scared that has and still continues to be actually, looming shadow, although I've found a healthy way of doing it and finding a sy. I wanted to find someone who I could live with and grow a family with. So I had to really consider how to approach that when I was on the dating scene. So I chose a social worker. You know, people who I know trend high empathetically understand the space. It's a risk assessment. She's a social worker. she might be open. You know, very strategic with how I interjected my past left the door open, she had the choice. It was our third date. you know, if it stopped, it stopped. Right We'll move on. Yeah. But she was open and she continued seeing me. But people in her life discouraged that. she had the company. Yeah yeah. I also think of again, another overlap with being an addict like You have to tell people and what you're signing up for is like People monitor you more. and That is what it is. You deserve it. It's how it's got to be. But also loves being monitored. you know, like no one loves that sense of people are like trying to evaluate all the time like just studying you. That's a kind of a little bit of an uncomfortable feeling. And I guess it's just the deal. That's what it is But it's not best feeling, right? It's not. and I definitely with people who don't really have a An open conversation with me about my past. I sense that all the time. Right But what we've created in our relationship is that it's an open door. And it's not just about me, right? She has struggles with anxiety. She has her own. None of us are st. Everyone has stuff. It's the family interpersonal culture there that we both happen to be good talkers in the sense of social work too. So that helps just having that background. But like we've created a space where If I'm going through another challenge I'll be open with her about it if I'm going through something and I'm not really aware of it. She's in touch with the signs and would know what to do to step in and get me the help that I needed, right? You're co piloting. C piloting. Yeah, yeah yeah. N being oppressed, you're co piloting. Yeah. And if you're understanding of yourself, then hopefully you are open to being co piloted your're open. Yeah. and you have to be. sharing in like it's not great. It's like I just do a normal someone else would do. and all of a sudden it's like wait, you know, like it's just that feeling of like everyone no. It is kind of like the thing we were talking about earlier of, well, sorry you have to be foggy L the rest of us don't Sorry. If I was someone else, I'd have that know me and as the person that is in the situation, sometimes it's just like Yeah. I understand. You know, hey, I want autonomy too This might not even be fair to do you, but I gott to say, I've watched a few different docs on psychosis and there is this really common pattern where peopleople think they're the Messiah. There's good and evil. It's Satan. I' be very exact with my language I love religion for people who benefits their life. But I will say that is my issue with the whole thing. This notion of evil Again, the delusions emanate from inside. So you somehow have picked up along the way, even though you guys weren't like crazy religious, this really, I think Caustic. concept of evil in Satan and God and perfection and good and bad. And I think it's so fucking dangerous and it's in there. And if you feel like you're fighting to defeat Satan, you're capable of anything. I just wonder what psychosis looks like On an alternate planet where those concepts don't even exist. Yeah, it is so fascinating that there's that common thread with psychosis. and even this big idea of science too. That was a part of my story with e equals MC squared being associated with my sentence and all that big existential ideas and I don't think this's really probably talked enough about the framework of psychosis. And that's something I really tried to make a part of my book. It's called meending Reality because when you break from reality, when you have this break, you're in this other world, this other space, and it is kind of like you're trying to know, I think that's why there's that thread because you're trying to find some sense of greater understanding. And it's the simplest story Yeah It's such a simple clean story. There's good, there's evil There's Satan. There's God. Y. It's very grounding and it's very comforting. And you see it, you see the churches I think that's why it becomes kind of a part of it. And you're right. I read this great book called Maniac or there's no one everything we know ceases to exist. There's a lot of these physicists who have come up with these things in psychotic states psychosis states. One in particular, this guy who has this crazy allergy during spring, he gets all these hives, he has to go to a little island in Germany, he's got a nurse carrying for him. He loses his mind for six days. and in that time he writes down all these matrixes. And when he comes out of them, he doesn't understand them. He doesn't know where they came from. And they are the math that proves quantum Bysics and it's like What is that? Yeah That's fascinating. How do we like have the psychosis we want? I listened to your podcast with Michael Polin talking about utilizing mushrooms and these psychoactive things to kind of get in that space where' experiencing some form of Psychosis is utnate reality to get into a space where You could think Well, I was thinking so much as I was reading your descriptions of these things. I'm like, oh yeah, I've been there. but when I've been on lots of psychedelics, the voice is still present that goes, this is just the shroms. This is just the acid. And then without that voice That's the only difference. Yeah, right I could go like, oh, this is that and it'll end. Yeah Well, it's a beautifully written book. You're a very good writer. I'm so glad you came. Congrats on that. It's called Mending Reality an Advocates existential Journey with Mental Health. And it's out now. I really encourage people to read it. It's a beautiful, touching story. Tell your dad we said hello. I know, I really like your dad. Will you give him a big hug for me? I will. And tell him my help to be the dad that proven to be. You'll be listening. He called me on my way out here and he's like He's like, is it Monday? Is it like live? And I'm like, they record it. It's gonna come out point but he's so supportive. soive. Is he so happy to be a grandpa? Oh yeah. Oh yeah ye That fire up the fucking truck. Oh, he's got a muscle car. What's his? It's a Roadrunner? It R Plymouth Rad Runner. Silver. Yeah goodood for him. Yeah. That's his other baby.'s is. it is. Sometimes it's like, oh, who's one point?. It's a car collector. I don't know why theyither. Well, Coolin's so nice meeting you. Thanks so much for sharing your story It's very important. Yeah, so brave in a world where people would be really wanting to hide this whole chapter of their life and move on. And I applaud you for not doing that. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah. good luck with everything He there, this is Herme and Permium. if you like that, you're gonna love the fact check, Miss Mona Welcome to the Fact Check. Welcome, welcome, welcome Oh, you're doing a character. Your first character is me. Do it again? No. W No, that's not how you sound It wasn't an impression. It was another guy. Oh really? Yeah, a competing podcaster. Who also says Wlcome Marcel M. Yeah, he's copying. I'm not gonna sue Got it I'm not, I don't believe in suing. Yes you do reliable maybe. You know, there's a certain paradox with suing, which is I think so often the people that get sued They don't have anything. It's a real waste of time I know, but it's justice. It feels like justice, yeah They ever sued anyone No. You've been sued. No No. Okay. I think was I had a threat of Sueing Some light. There was some light threatening. Yeah It didn't come through. D material. Yeah. No one's nameamed Sue anymore Women, Suzanne Susan I know but Susan down anyone Right ight Suzanne Surandan doesn't go by suues. No, you're right. Yeah, I don't know a lot of S'. Yeah. I had an aunt S. You did? Yeah. That was when I thought It was so beautiful Wait Yeah. She's not my blood relative. It was my uncle's Wife Wh Your dad's brother's wife. My dad's brother's wife And I just thought she was so beautiful when I was a little boy. What is She was so kind Mm, that's nice. Do love you thought she was beautiful on the inside bothoth the inside and the outside. Yeah. she was just so generous to my mom she worked too But I think she worked nights. Somehow she was around in the summer when I'd be at my B and grandmas's. We'd hang out at my cousin's house a lot. And she was always around to make macaroni and cheese. Oh, didid she make mac and cheese craft? And it was so good. And like when your mom made it, it sucked. Well we never had craft. We had fucking crosscutter brands the Kroger in house brand called like Toss cutter, but they spelled it with a K It was garbage. I hate to dispar it.ter both cays. No, the sea was a sea. We weren't in the south,. Krogers. Oh right. Okay. Crosscutters. I think it was the brand of all this generic food they would sell us my family.. Yeah. And when I really wanted because my pa bought first of all, my grama had worked for craft when she came up from Kentucky. Yeah with the Honchel clan. They all went off murdering and thieving, but grandma Yolis got herself a really good job at craft. She invented there for long enough that she had a pension from there Before she went and got her double master's degree and became a teacher. Yeah. So we Free Mac and cheese from Well the family was very loyal to craft because of that. So we had all the craft products And then as you know, my puppa Bob worked for Wonder Bread Bakery which either owned hostes or hostes owned them. Right. So twwinkies, ding donongs,, the pies, all the hostess' products. He would pick up from the thrift store and with his discount, it was virtually free. Wait from the thrift store. Yeah, so there in our in their town of Lavonia, there was a little standalone hostess thrift store. And it's where all the damaged hostess. So you'd get a box of dented ding donongs and it'd be like ninety cents And then Papa Bob got some kind of discount. So was. He's like how many you want? And I'm like like he's Just get as many as you think you can eat I think I can eat forty eight of those for sure. Wow. Isn't great. Let's get it. It's one dollar Dented Ding donong sounds like o diss, you know? It does. You dented ding donong? Well, I had a dented ding donong during my Pronies scare for a year. So for me, it really hits close to home Is a ding Dg a pianist? I guess is. Yeah. Oh. Get your ding Dong out of my face a I think it's just Dg. I think Ding Dong is just a dummy It's also that. But a dong, a dick is also a jerk is you know, all these words than God have m Jerk of course, of course. But why didn't your grandma and grandpa give your mom craft If they were just getting it all the time for free? They should have just given that to your mom. Why does your mom have to have Kroger Krogs? Right crosscutter. Yeah You know, yeah, maybe they should have sent us home with fun stuff, but they also might have felt like that would have maybe offended my mom or hurt my mom's feelings that we needed Groceries Now, they did come out with a generic brand. wasn't a generic brand, but it was a sub brand? It wasn't as expensive as craft macaroni and cheese If I recall those were forty nine cents a box? Really? When I was a kid, yeah. Wow. And there was a brand calledraft. Golden. I look it up Golden harvest. Golden harvest. Well just maybe do golden macaron cheese nineteen eighties Golden grain Yes. So that was about A third less in price than the craft It's the same brand behind Rice Aroni. Okay, great. I had bigger noodles And it was damn good. I was like, okay, I can definitely live with golden grain Is that it? Yeah, It's really good stuff.. and cheap, but a little more expensive than cost cutter Okay so that's That's where it's fallen and the Or you just had the black and white box of macar and cheese. that was also terrible.. Okay I also I didn't have mac and cheese, but then, you know, I'd go to friends' houses and their moms with me. how did they make it that good? And then finally my I like convinced my mom to make it. Yeah. And then it wasnt good I'll tell you what parents I think do.il No, I'll tell you exactly what happens because I've watched it happen in my own household. parents kind of rightly so. They look at that directions When it says use a quarter cup of butter which is a half stick of butter My grandma didn't give a fuck. She's like, yeah, eat ten sticks of butter But I think my mom and most moms were like that we can get away with a quarter stick of butter instead of a halfality. Like I'm feeding my kid a half of a stick of butter Margarine in my case. Mararine And so I think they skimp on the butter and I even notice Kristin will prepare it that way. And when I make it, the kids are like, Oh Dad, you make the best meac. I'm like, yeah, '' two packs of cheese. I also use two packs of cheese and I use a full sllash half stick of butter. Yeah. I go Here's my thing, like for doing. If you're doing it, exactly. I agree. I think my mom used margarine and skim milk. And probably didn't put the right amount of mar. Maybe. I'm sure she was like, that's gotta be too. It looks crazy. And I ate a whole box. So I'm like, I am eating a half stick of butter. Yeah, whatever. Yeah Um, I had to drink skim milk because I u had high cholesterol. As a baby? Yeah. As a little kid. They knew you had I don't think I ever had my cholesterol check. Yeah, they would do physicals. And check your cholesterol? Yeah. And you had like the cholesterol of a seven year old man. They had high cholesterol as a kid. That's why it's it's like when I have it now, I'm just like, Yeahah, dh, I've had it since I was a baby. Literally a baby I had it for fifteen, twenty years from whenever I was getting a tested. Until two years ago, threeree years ago Yeah. I don't anymore. I fucking like mid to low And I can't believe it I'm not on a statin, but I'm on red. Oh ye Rice yeast. Red yeast yeah, which is nature's stanton. Golden grain st. I think it's the same. of thing that's in a stat.. Additionally I'm on a medication called Zedia old Dr. Richard Isaacson gave Yeah and that dropped it significantly. and it doesn't work the same way as a statin I guess you can either attack On a cholesterol. scenario You can either attack how much there is overall or how quickly your body absorbs it. He' like, I think you have of an absorption problem. Let's get you and Zetia in that fucking overnight, Monica. It was like, Well, now we're talking. this is what I was supposed to be. And I kind of what almost resigned like it sounds like you have Well, no I'm on a statin and I'm on the GLP one and now it's it's normal. It's normal now After all these years. Yeah. I hope you didn't do any damage. I hope it's all reversible. I mean, I was born with this. What am I supposed to do? I was just a baby by baby. Yeah. One of your mom was cutting the margarine short. She's like, I can't feed this kid cholesterol She's going to have a coronary episode Exactly fifth great. But when you would go to your grandparents' house in Savannah Would they dump that butter in there and make it good? I don't think they made craft either, but my grandpa would every day he'd pick me up something from me like Um Cass Eactly. from Crystal Cryst Lry every day. Yeah. This is what this is grandparents so fun O Taco Bell or anything in your heart didnt want it. He would get it for me. He loved you. But he loved me so much. He lo so much. It's crazy. Yeah So did my grandparents? Isn't it the greatest il the end. I think that's how you That would' have been a big chunk of our lives if we grew up the way we're supposed to. You're supposed to live with your whole fucking family No And it would have been so nice. Everyone was so the were I'b talking about Ant Su. She Anu might have turned on you. No yes. No, no, no no d. No Anue remained She like the sweet sweetest woman, ye. I'm sorry. I loved her. She suchuch a wonderful woman. How did she pass Is Uncle Randy still with us? Fuck ye, I was texting with him yesterday. He's in California. actually flew home last night. B he' out visiting my cousins. And we tried to get a breakfast going. I was going to say guys We b, but we tried. But no, he Uncle Randy, every text he sends me. it's him playing either pickleball or full court basketball He's always been an athlete and it's just like ye, he is reaping the rewards of that. That's greatool. Like my dad, I think about this all the time. I'm fifty one I was hiking the other day. Yeah. And when I graduated collllege in two thousand, I would have been twenty five, which meant he would have been. your d Yeah fifty two. Okay. He could not do anything with us. L they all came out for the graduation and we went to like to Penanga to get my favorite sandwiches and we took a little walk, not and he's like, I'llay in the car. Ewhere we went he could like, go get a He large. He was large and he just had been so hard on his body. and had so many heart attacks at that point Yeah, I just think of our I think about him so often now because I'm at the age where I remember thinking, well, that's it for him. He's like not walking anymore. Oh my God. fell asleep in the hot tub. That whole story. We got in a fight. Dade, you can't be in the hot tub by yourself when I leave. What are you talking about? I like becausecause I woke you up. You were dead asleep in the hot tub and your fucking nose was It the water. It also a I'll handle it. Okay, but imagine your kid now you're going up to you and saying, Dad, you can't go in the hot tub without us. You be you would be like, what the fuck? First of all, I'd be smart enough to go, Okaykay, great, I won't. And then I would just go in it if that's what I was going do. But I would have been smart enough to not get no. I would have recognized it for what it was, which is I was concerned about him He should have felt loved. Fine. Forget if it's your kids, if I said it, then you'd be mad at me. Well, clearly because I've not yet been discovered in a hot tub sleep. I'm saying if you were and I was like, or you didn't know you were, but I was like, hey, you just so you know. like I don't want you to go in the hot tub again without anyone else there. You'd be like, Yeah, fook you. Yeah. And I'd be like, I'll decid. Listen, I saw you almost died. I mean, is it a hard hypothetical? 'use I have to imagine that that happened that I passed out in the hot tub. Well, you've done some things that you don't like being called out on.m trying to think. That's a big statement Well there's like three or four things in the chamber But it happened last night You fell asleep in the h. I fell asleep. which. This is starting to happen. listen I said, we had a guest today and I had to watch that guest show. So we all got in bed and we were watching it. And like, you know, it wasn't voted We had a detractor We had one member that wanted to watch something else. But three of us wanted to watch this anyways And I said or someone said Well Dad has to watch us for work. So we'll watch your show tomorrow night. So we're watching our show that we are watching because I have to. Yeah. and I fll I doze doll That's okay. It was like eight o'clock. we had we had a big Yeah That's not fall asleep on the. But this is what woke me up I hear. Well, if he's gonna sleep through this whole thing, can we just turn my show on? I agree with that. And it's a great point. Yeah. So then I woke up indignant I whole time. Is said a guy can't close his eyes for two minutes You know, it' like being a funny grandpa. Oh and uh And then I was awake enough to finish the episode and then another But I was like, oh yeah, we're at a phase where I fall asleep. Watching TV sometimes. I welcome it. I don't think that's an age thing sometimes. No. you know when you're at like a Thanksgiving and it's past Thanksgiving and like all the men go watch football on the couch And about forty five minutes into the game, sixty percent of the men are asleep. I would always watch that and just be like, what is up with these guys? They can't stay awake all day You know, because I was young. That's Triptopfan and also that is notot an age thing, like I think People fall asleep all the time at young ages. I think it increases as you get older for sure.. Grandparents are always fall asleep. My grandmaid, she'd always go, I'm not sleeping I'm resting my eyes. She was clearly asleep all the time. You know, she would fall if she sat now for more in eight minutes, she would take a little nap So yeah, I think it's age related. and I think I'm there. You better listen when people tell you can't go on the hot tub. Well, I will say this gets me further down the road into accepting that you could discover me. Dad asleep dreaming in the hot do. Yeah. Or in that what at the sauna I was gonna say Suna, that's more likely.'s you're too miserable to fall sleeping up, Suna. Noob but you could pass out and then die No I'm going to go in there right after work I already think I already turned it on. Bgnuessday wide awake. I have something I wanted to talk about. Okay I had Oh you'll crazy, Sim Really crazy. afterfter the play. no A Delta'ay Yeah, Delt's play. Okay, the day before Delta's playlay, Friday. I went to dinner with Jess and Anna at Oybar, a place in studio City Delicious. I really should again, I say all these places and then it can't get in anywhere and it's really annoying, but whatever, Oybar fantastic place. and We don't go there a lot. It's like a it's not in the rotation really. It's more random. It's the first I'm hearing of it. Yeah. fantastic place. And we went and we had a server, Wonderful, loved her. She was great ver dinner Next day, we go to Delta' Pay. After Delta' Play, we decide to go somewhere for an hour. You and Anna, or you Anna and Jess? me and Anna, but then we texted Jess and said we're going we're going to Black Cat, anotherother place we almost never go. Okay, Where's that located? Silver Lake O other side of town. Exactly. Not even anywhere close to stududio city. We're way far away So we go to Buquette because it was so nice out and that was like outdoors we sit Jess comes to meet us, you guys. That's our server from last night Same server Two different restaurants, not even close to the same part of town. notot places we normally go. That is craz that I think is a duplicate. Yes. is a duplicate. a dupe Well, my thought would be because do you like Black Cat? I like it. yeah. And you love the other place she works I would be like, excuse me, where else do you work? I gotta try that huh? Because she's She has good taste. She has good taste in where she works. That's true. I mean, we did say like, whoa, this is so weird. She was like, I know, yeah. It it seemed hard to juggle two serving schedules at two different restaurants. Are they owned by the same company, maybe?? W, did she get into the logistics of her? Shes just said she needed jobs basically. Yeah, But then one allows her to that just seems hard like they're going to call for sure on the same day They don't. She's juggling it. Well, no, she's not because she's made. She only does lunch as one place at dinner. She's not real. Are you listening? Okay She's made up lady. Okay and she's a cutout And it's like Where else see? Exactly. What have she said Well, what if she had no memory of meeting you and then she she had a different name Well, I know. that's like We are going see her again and she's not going to notice and then Jess will be like,, o my gosh, you and then you'll see this little like a little flicker reboot. Reboot. And then she's like, Ohh, yes, oh my gosh. yes, I also work here. They'llve just fed her a lie.. A believable lie. Yes. Yes, that they modeled on all these different AIs I think you should get her in the friendship group She's busy working. Yeah, clear That's true But I just thought that was so weird. Yeah, yeah, ye. I mean. I mean, what's next? I know. I know. I got nervous. I did, you know, I was like, uh oh, you know when we get Eric says when it's getting too obvious, they're gonna pull the plug on us. So like yeah. that did worry me 'cause that was wayay too obvious. Two days in a row Makes no sense. Yeah, yeah. lazy It's weird that AI's lazy because that's what we think they're Industrious Well Yeah Maybe to save energy they. Exactly. There's a bigger goal there're servicing or something. They have to save water that day. Water and power. Yeah. ye. ye. All right, shouldould we do some fast? Yes, please. Stay tuned for more armchair experts. If you dare This is an intense episode, The Bravery Coen is astonishing. It is. I hope people listen. too would he beerve. I think they will. Yeah. This is a very fascinating, unique privileged perspective to hear someone. I know. You hear about schizophrenia and psychotic breaks. you hear about it academically or reported on. Yes. you never hear from the person experienenceing it. I know. Yeah. I feel quite lucky. We've gotten really lucky between We really sociopath I mean, it's so cool. Yeah yeah. Borderline gettingting to hear the personal perspective has been so cool. It really has. It really has. And every time it makes me, it deepens my empathy. Same. Yeah. same. It is And this one really challenged my preconceived stance on the medication I know, you've really been Yeah. I've been kind of open to this notion that yeah, its its yet it's one of the tools. Yeah And yeah, you could say, well, why isn't every alcoholic on an abuse for the rest of their life That's a medicine that makes you throw up if you drink alcohol. Yeah How much can you drink Like you can't have like No, I don't think you. I've never been on it, but R. I know my dad was on it when he got out of treatment. It was like standard used to be very standard when you got out of treatment. I don't know if it still is, but when my dad went in the eighties You were recommended to be on ant abuse for like the first month out of treatment Is it a pill Interesting U ye, no, it's like What if it's a placebo? Like if you're told this pill will make you throw up the second you drink alcohol, who tries it? Clearly people have tried it in But I wouldn't try it. I'm like if I'm gonna to throw up the second I have it, I won't be able to get it in me. What is the point of trying Wait, no, you don't throw up You throw it from drinking. Yeah as soon as you have alcohol. Yeah, yeah. the medication makes you throw out. Right. So you can't get blood in your alcohol or in your you can't get alcohol in your bloodstream. Yeah. And and you've just thrown up which I don't mind, you know as you've witnessed I've become uncomfortable. But if you throw up, Then can you have more? use if you're an alcohol, yeah, throwing up doesn't do anything. you, But' if it can't get in your body because you're gonna throw up every time you have that That's true It just like prevents it from entering. Yeah. W So you know, you could argue why every alcoholic should be on there for the rest of their life Maybe some people should. I don't know. But I mean, I'm with you. It's a deeper issue. There are things that you have to that are emotional and mental health based underneath that that need a dressing. Yeah. And then there's many, many things you could employ And then if those are not working, then you can is that? I know, it's tricky. I have I have a complicated relationship with Medicine because I and this is not fair, probably But it is a little fair because I am medicated Um, I'm like just fucking take it. For sure. But your medication also doesn't turn you into zomb. Exactly. And I understand that. That's right. It does not me negatively that I that I know When you can imagine a scenario where the medicine makes life so unenjoyable to live that you just assume be dead. I know. That's exactly. And that is what the claim is. It's just like and yeah, so I know. But it's complicated. But it's so hard. It's like I have categories. I'm up for that approach I think you need to a co pilot. L he's married Yeah He has someone in his life that can observe if he's not sleeping, can observe a lot of things Yeah If you're fucking lone woofing it m I think you should take the medicine I know It also just and I know it's self it's selfish on my part because I just can't the feeling of being around someone who I feel like might be unstable. Yes, unpredictable unpredictable. That's very triggering for me. It Gives you anxiety. Yeah, it gives me anxiety.. Did it help to learn that only four percent of schizophrenics are violent? I found that helpful. I guess my bar room understanding of it. was like if you were schizophrenic, my hunch was like, you have a thirty percent chance of getting violent at some point. Well not necessarily that you kill someone, but that You're going to be in a fight with cops or you're going to be in a fight on the street, you know, Yeah, for some reason, for me, it's not even the violence part that's triggering. It's like What's going on in that person's mind? Yeah. I find that scary. I bet it's something like alcoholism too, where it's like it affects almost everybody. You think you're the only family dealing with it. but like I know I know now in my life several people. who have disappeared for periods of time and they've done really wild things. Yeah. This woman that we knew very closely, family ish member has left her family. She bought a crazy car She, you know, just was in five states over on some journey that no one could comprehend what she was experiencing And then we have a friend that that's happening. like it I bet more people have maybe. I mean, I have I can't go into too many details, but I have a very close person in my life that had A psychosis and it was horrifying. Yeah. and u Yes, everyone. was not just affected then is still affected and constantly affected and a constant, again, there's like low level anxiety of all the time. Always Yeah. always. And that's not their fault. you know, but it that's why when it's like, you're not taking your medicine, like Okay, well now my anxiety has to be higher. I mean, that's also again, like it does, and I can work on myself and say like that's not about me. I'm powerless over you. Exactly. But it's hard. It' really, really hard. And it does affect absolutely everyone in your orbit. It's hard to watch people you love hurt themselves. I know or hurt not have control over their brain. Like it's I mean, none of us have control over our brains. really, I guess it's a sliding scale. but ye yeah. I think it's closer than we think. Yeah Well, no, I' that's then I had like major PTSD after you were incident. Yes, because I was like, oh, I'm that's me. likeike I'm I have that H. U So is schizophrenia a genetic? Also my dad's oldest brother had schizophrenia. Really? Much older than my dad. And I met him. he was the he was very gentle. He was like a very nice, nice And he had been an admiral or something to? No, the oldest who and like had a caretaker and stuff. I met him only when I was four in India But he was like a nice boy. Yeah. Yeah. anyway Okay, yes, it has a strong genetic component. But it is not determined by DNA alone. Genetics account for roughly sixty percent to eighty of the risk, meaning environmental factors in life experiences also play a critical role in triggering the condition. I wonder how many people just like habit latent and it's not been triggered. Oh, I think a lot of people make it through because again, there's this window of vulnerability. Exactly. But like what if I have it No, no, you've exited the window. No, I've exited the window for it to express itself in me. But what if I have the gene? You have the gene? Yeah.. but it does say it's not caused by a single schizophrenia gene. Okay. so that's good. It's probably what we learned, what's it called poolygenetic genetic. Yeah I had a girlfriend whose mother was schizophrenic and I remember then learning about it and going, o I'm now scared. Yeah, it's scary It does say if one identical twin develops schizophrenia, the other twin has a fifty percent chance of developing it despite sharing the exact same DNA. This is the strongest evidence that gen genetics are powerful but not the only cause. That would almost imply half the people with it are getting It activated. I just wanted to remind people of the aces. Okay. U Do you want to take the test It's only five minutes. It's only five minutes? Yeah. Okay, sure. This is discovering your trauma type. This is a crude childhood. What was it? Yeah, Ace adverse childhoodhood experience. there we go. Okay. but rad each statement based on your personal opinion. I noticed These are a little hard though, because I have taken this a few times. Yeah, but this seems different for some reason. Like food scarcity is an interesting one Yeah. likeike o No, I was never starving. Right. And also You went to the store and you got You know, there was a gallon of milk and there was X amount of ground beef. There was a period where it was like, you were hyper consonscious of Yeah how much food there was. Yeah. you got in trouble if you ate too much of the food Well again, yeah, it's all not But that's not starving. It's not like I went days without eating. It's just like, oh, I remember there was a period where where there was stress around the food in the house. Yeah. Yeah, that's for sure. Okay, so I'll read this real quick, but then the test, the five minute test is different, but I still want to do it. Are you sure you're not gonna have to pay at the end of it? I'm not sure, but I don't think so. boy You're not sure So for aces, there's categories. so it's like abuse and then under abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse, sexual abuse Then there's neglect under that physical neglect, emotional neglect Three household challenges Under that, mental illness in the household, incarcerated household member, substance use by a household member, parental separation or divorce, domestic violence. And then other common childhood stressors such as community violence, systemic discrimination, food insecurity, and unstable housing. Yeah. in there, but this fun test. fun Ace test is about what kind of trauma. or your trauma. Tell me about your trauma. traum. Tell me about your trauma. Okay. Now this is strongly you know, you know that whole thing.. I noticice small shifts in people's moods immediately Strongree. I often feel like I am, quote on my own even when I'm in a crowd Yeah, agree. Okay Oh man This ishing that's the other tricky part about answering these questions like Now versus Now versus most of my twenties and thirties. Let's do now. Let's do now. Let's see how your drama is So what do you think now There's also neutral I'm gonna go between neutral and agree, but I think agree. I still thinkree. Okay. I gott to do this or is not. Yeah. Okay. I find it very hard to say no when someone asks for a favor. Disagree. Certain smells or sounds can instantly change my mood I strongly agree I am very cautious about who I l into my inner circle I prefer to sit facing the door in a restaurant or public space. Yeah I strongly agree squared I pride myself on not needing help from anyone else. Strongly agree. I worry that if I show my true feelings, people will leave. Agree I sometimes feel like I'm reliving a past argument in my head. Oh my God. strongly agree. I When am I not? There's no moment that in the background I'm not having an argument withone. oldld argument. Yeah. I pay more attention to what people do than what they say aggree I am easily startled by sudden movements or loud noises. Disagree. Except when Im Eric snezes that's hum. That got a up Yeah. That really got a. If you're not startled by Eric's sneeze, you're dead. That's the only time I think I've ever seen you like like actually. And then I got angry. Right. Yeah. It makes me angry if I get startled. Oh that was so funny. Oh my god. Okaykay. I tend to shut down when a relationship gets too intense That has been the pattern that's you know, not curs. So what are I also agree. I feel responsible for making sure everyone around me is happy Yeah, strongly agree. Specific triggers that make me want to hide away. You're shaking your head, yes. Okay, I'll say agree. I am always waiting for the other shoe to drop in a good situation. Yeah, I strongly agree. I find it difficult to fall asleep if I hear unfamiliar noises. Yeahah, strongly agree. I feel trapped if someone depends on me too much. Yeah, strongly agree. I apologize even when I haven't done anything wrong. Oh God, ye. This is the endless. This is the shhepherd. I mean you haven'tid I have just my brother and I are always in trouble like first question is am I in trouble? All right, but What did I do? Okay, you know. So agree. Yeah. Okay I often feel like my life is a series of before and after moments. It's abstract. Yeah, it is. What do you think that means I feel like my life is a series of before and after. I mean, maybe is it like Well maybe this is how I was before I like this is before sobriety before I for kids. Yeah. Yeah. okay. I'm gonna agree. Okay. I have a very hard time forgiving people who lied to me once. Disagree. I am constantly scanning my environment for potential problems. Yeah, one hundred percent. I'd rather solve a problem myself than explain it to someone else Oh yeah, agree N not strongly agree. I am the peacemaker and my friend group family To some degree, yeah. Neutral? I have that middle child thing, right? Like if I'm with my family, I'm trying to adjust everybody's mood And as tensions are swelling, I'm on it So in that way, I think I agree. Okay. I can be physically present but mentally miles away in the past H I wouldd say neutral. I am suspicious of people who are overly nice for no reason. Oh, yeah, strongly agree I h I don't have I feel unc I want to know I feel uneasy in large uncontrolled crowds. Uncontrolled crowds, yeah Right Well, it's interesting, uneasy versus aroused. I'm also quite aroused. But you're also I'm on high alert, but I think I can handle my business. so I'm kind of aroused. I don't think you're at ease. No, no, no, no, I'm not at ease. I'm like I'm like fucking this gu this guy's popping off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So agree. Okay, I'll agree I value my freedom more than emotional intimacy Yeah, freedom's huge for me. Yeah ree I find myself changing my personality to fit in with different groups. Strongly disagree. I get a heavy feeling in my chest when I think of certain years. Disagree. I feel like I have a shield around my heart most of the time H I don't disagree. Yeah. ye. I noticice exit signs and escape routes where whenever I enter a new building I find it difficult to share my deep secrets with anyone. Disagree. I feel a deep need to be liked by everyone I meet. Strongly agree. I often have dreams that feel like warnings from my past. Oh yeah, strongly agree. I struggle to believe people when they give me a compliment That's evolved. Neutral. Yeah. I'm highly sensitive to the tone of someone's voice. Yeah I strongly agree Yeah. too sensitive to that I prefer I'm actually imagining things, I think. A a lot of time Wait, when you hear someone's voice? Like, well you and I will be in a fact check. M And I will detect something in your voice Yeah. and then I will get like defensive. Right And then I will hear it later. Yeah. And I'm like, Oh my, I don't even hear it now. You know what I'm saying? I go like, this is curious. Was I wrong then or am I wrong now Do you know that? Yeah, well, I, um I'm very sensitive to changes in yeah tone or or but I don't normally But then when you're editing are you like, oh, I I it was much more No, stays consistent. I I feel that I'm consistent. Okay, great. But I wonder if it means like Kristin is like auditorily very sensitive. Like if someone has like a weird voice or something's like she's really gonna notice it, I don't think I'd notice it. I don't know what that means. whatever. I already put a. Okay.. I prefer to live a life with as few strings attached as possible. Again, that evolved. That's how it was. And that's not how it is now.. So I would say disagreeing now. Okay, great prioritize other people's comfort over my own needs. I'm going to go neutral I find it hard to find I don't think he can be a family member and not do that. You can't function If you prioritize if you don't prioritize other people above your own things it' like it has it won't function. It's a give and take though. If you're always doing it, that's one thing If you' but I think you make your needs known. Yeah, but you also then decide not right. Like you should have heard the debate how we ended up at Mess Hall last night was like a fucking hour long thing, right And at some point I'm like, I'm going to surrender to whatever. anything they agree on will go long at this point, There's a lot of that when you have kids. Right. But you have like you have a need to be yourself. That's that's a need for you like to not compromise who you are. So you're not going notot do that so that someone else feels comfortable. No,'m not going to be someone else just somebody ye. no, no Okay, I find it hard to focus on the present because my mind wanders. No, disagree. This is a lot longer They said five minutes Yeah. And they didn't say it was gonna to cost anything, but we're gonna find. Oh my Godd. We're at the cost part? No, but there's a lot Okay She was your call I see the pattern emerging. I can I feel like I can predict what the outcome. I don't even know what what the options are though Super duper. Kind of what is it a kind? You're kind of this