Connection Through Shared Struggle

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair experxpert. I'm Dan Shepppard. I' joined by Lily Padman. Hello. Today we have Hunter Biden on. Yeah who is an author, He was a lawyer He was a lobbyist. He an artist and he's a recovery advocate. Obviously he's the son of Joe Biden, the forty sixth president. and he has a book out now called Beautiful Things detailing his Harrowing journey through in hardcore addiction. Yeah. And so this is a very addiction heavy episode. It's we try to minimize any political nature. I think this is the kind of story I love to hear about addiction. That's primarily what it is.es. So I hope everyone goes into it with an open mind because it's incredibly honest, and vulnerable and powerful. I agree. Please enjoy Hunter Biden This episode is brought to you by American Beverage. We've probably all had that moment where someone says something about an ingredient in your drink and you're like, shouldhould I be worried about that? 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That's Q U I N C E com slash dax for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Quins. com slash dax He's an ob chance children C you stay seated, How are, brother? Good to meet you. I' really, really sorry I'm late.. You bringing sugar? Yeah, yeah. All right,. Hey, Monica. Nice to meet.ice. Luckily we had sugar in the raw. othertherwise I was bringing out a Yeah, bag of white powder. Im to start for these two Eactly. Sugar in your coffee, I'm a little shocked. I'm gonna be honest We're gonna start with stereotypes. Yeah. I thought you were tougher than this. No no. I'mor. I got my few things. I got my nicotine it Now quit smoking. When I got clean, Litter My wife, she convinced me to go to this guy, What's his name? The hypnotist? Yeah. I don't know his name, but I know of him. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And I was like, bu shit. And I went to worked. Yeah. And then like six months later, I don't know, was like my first indictment or my second. I was like, I need some nicotine.. He said he could get anybody offer anything I was shocked. Have you seen this guy? Like he is like out of a movie. He's got the worst two pay you've ever seen. He brings you into his garage that has all this brick of brack everywhere Yeah. And you sit like in a barga lounger And he has a bottle of water, least as I remember. just talking to you about nicotine and cigarettes. And when you start and things like that, all I remember just was doing this There's never a moment where you're like, you're under At the very end, he comes and it's three sessions and at the last session, he says, that's it, you're done Wow. And I was done. That's c. How about the physical withdrawal? Not done Did didn't feel no, the craziness? No. Now, he does it over three sessions. and like the first session, you're gonna smoke half of what you smokke. Okay, okay. Se second session, you're only gonna have two cigarettes a day. And then the third, you're done and I was done. I mean, I was smoking since I was seventeen. I mean, like pack of Marbors a day. When you were sober probably back Yeah and when I wasn't. Yeah. Well, when I look back, I remember my epic hangovers and at this point, it's hard to really know because I also would smoke like three packs of camel lights on nights that I partied. If you're blowing lind, the cigarette never goes out It's just one after another. and you wake up feeling horrendous you're like, I don't know how to unravel was the alcohol? Was it the cocaine? wasas it the insane amount of cigaret? that's the whole problem. It's one think there's a combination ofcool you can talk about it. Yeah, yeah, ye. That's kind of your position. I've heard you speak on this a bit Yeah. I think statistically we would agree, right? I think the shocking number I heard you say is like you add up every single other known drug and the amount of deaths caused by alcohol is ph x some total of every other drug. Yeah. Which I guess then you could try to parse out like what is the quantity aspect of the drug and then what's the qualitative aspect that's causing that destruction. Yeah. What do you think? I think it's both. Alcohol number one is so ubiquitous, but beyond it being ubiquitous, it's the only drug that impacts every organ of your body and every pleasure center of your brain If you're into stimulants, it's like the dopamine reactor. If you're into opiates, it's the opioid receptors. Exactly Alcohol does all of them and then you become truly physically dependent upon it, meaning that your body will shut down if you deny it the amount of alcohol that you've been putting in it and you'll go into seizures and die The only other drug is basically freeze dried alcohol is the benzose. And so from that perspective And then you just look at the societal effect of it. And that part is the quantitative part. And the quantitative part being that it is so ubiquitous, the amount of deaths and destruction that alcohol causes in know, everything from car accidents to literally just people falling down the steps to people beating the hell out of their partners or the kids or things like that. Yeah, man, you remind me of how insanely hard alcohol was to quit in that you're never more than a couple hundred feet from alcohol. If you're in LA Or generally anywhere I went. Anywhere. You're always within a couple hundred feet of this thing. you were trying your hard to never con So your own home Yeah, yeah, yeah of course. Yeah. if you have a partner who does it normally. Yeah, I kind of almost forget how insurmountable that first section was of just like, how will I ever begin to ignore the amount of alcohol I just see all the time everywhere I go? Gracefully, I've not walked in in twenty three, twenty two years. I haven't walked into a lot of rooms and saw bowls of cocaine No, exactly. And if I saw bowls of cocaine every hundred feet, crack either. Yeah, yeah, ye ye exactly. or heroin or opiates for that matter, or other synthetic opius. Weed now. It'll be interesting to see what the kind of long term Rult of it'll all be. I'm generally in favor of it being legalized or fully in favor. But it is becoming ubiquitous now. Oh me too. By the way, I'm not for prohibition. Yeah. It is what it is. Yeah. I would rather see legalization of everything before it's just a much more honest approach. And I don't know about it. everything, but haven't fully thought it through. I used to think that when I was younger Crack at your seven eleven. Yeahew San Francisco, you can. byy the way, the reason I talk about crack that I talk about crack is because it comes with such a stigma and it's so shocking to people. And I don't say it to shock people. Joe Rorgan did this whole thing where, oh my God, you should hear him talk about crack. It's like a lost lover. Well, it's just honest. and I don't mean to talk about it that way. and I want to always make it clear it is actually that dangerous. And the other thing about crack for me is this idea that there's this process and it's a whole different thing and it's kind of like this secret, it's not It had bad branding. I mean, crack sounds like branding. Yeah, it's like you're already it sounds fucking gross. Crack. Eactly. If it were called taint cocaine. It' one It's adjacent to taint cocaine. It's because there's also some racism in the mix. Well, there's a a huge amount of racism. some Yale. Yeah. thing Yeah. When I was in law school, my senior in political writing is like your thesis that you write at Yale. That's what I wrote about.. I wrote about the disparity in sentencing as relates to whichich the Obama administration changed, and then the Biden administration got it rid of altogether. Yeah this arbitrary distinction legally. The response to it was understandable in retrospect and that it kind of came and it just Core apart communities at record speed and the level of violence But the level of violence always is never necessarily associated with use The level of violence is all around the trade And I'd say to people, just go watch the fucking wire You know what I mean? It had an astounding effect on so many communities. And the reason that I am So open about it. number one is just because you've had probably the same experience. I don't know of anybody who hasn't been impacted by addiction in their lives one way or another. The thing is, as much as we talk about it, People don't talk about it and it's really hard for a non addict to understand I want to express an overarching goal I have for talking to you, which is I try my hardest to keep the show apolitical. I want Republicans to feel as welcome listening to this show as I do Democrats. I think the things I'm interested in talking about, I hope everyone would get to hear about addiction, about trauma, about all these things. So my goal is to keep it as apolitical as possible, but I'm going to break it right now to just say There's only been a single moment that I thought Trump potentially lost his momentum with his base And it was the one moment he tried to come after your dad about your addiction. You could just feel in that audience. everyone was like, Oh no. You're talking about my son, you're talking about my brother in law, you're talking about my mom That one didn't work. I just think it's so pervasive and everyone's had the heartbreak of it. So few people are fully insulated from it that I just thought, wow, weirdly of all these things the thing I think cut through the sharpest. Well your intuition or insight into that is actually really but on which is interesting because that's what The whole attack on me initially was all about was all of the salacious pictures that they stole and cobbled together from, I don't know, how many different devices, idea that there was like one laptop that somebody had. It's just bullshit. Your whole life was a fucking train wreck, right? There was evidence over of the train. Ry way But like you, not my whole life, Three years of extreme addiction you know, I mean, you look at those pictures ninety percent of them are somebody taking a picture of me. But regardless, then what they did is they I conflated two things, onene that was completely untrue with one that was completely true. I was a crackhead. The thing that wasn't true was that I was taking bribes from like Ukrainians and Chinese and was involved If you can get somebody, you know, there's this thing called eliminationist rhetoric, Rach M Mad has talked about it and originally it was perfected by the Nazis, but then Putin picked it up in the early two thousands in which if they can get just five percent of the people to believe that you're a pedophile or a crackhead, attached like the worst thing that you can say to somebody, the ability to get thirty percent of the people to believe that you're taken bribes is that much easier Well, and then we're circling back to the far reaching tentacles of labeling crack crack. the kind of racial connotations. the now new heights of shame reached by the addict If you're a cocaine addict, you're in great company. You're with Sigmund Freud for Pet's sake. You're with Luminaries and Nobel Peace Force. When you're a crack addict, your group is totally different And so you're already juggling the shame of an addiction. and then you add on this other factor, which is like, oh, no, it's known, I'm full exclusion of my community. This is the one thing that, no, I am the bottom of the barrel, even among addicts, I am the shittiest of the shitty. So yes, if we establish you as a crack cad then really, your reputation' gone. So all things are conceivable at that point because we've already designated crackheads as being zombies who are the worst of the worst. Yeah. So it all works in concert beautifully actually. To be clear, I handed it all to them on a silver platter because I was a crackhead. And so my thing now is yeah Yeah, so what? What are you going to say about me? What are you going to ask me? like I just did Candace Owens and she This is to me for six years. The line that she used over and over again was degenerate C crackhead. Crack headads for son. You know, I've been so for seven years on june first. Congratulations. And Clean' over on seven N not that I find any distinction between the two, but she did't know that She did not know that. No. She just assumed that I was doing coke or doing crack because what about the bag of cocaine that was found in the White House? And you realized that for six years the New York Post ran a picture of me. I mean, I was on the cover of the New York Post more than anybody in the history of the newspaper No kidding. in one year period of time. Okay. goingoing back to like Alexander Hamilton. And I was their number one story. They were writing one and a half stories about me on average a day for like a year. and then it went to one story every two days for the next five. And each one of those stories was awful to begin with, but it always included a picture of me with a pipe in my mouth or in a motel room with a woman, like a degenerate crack addict And so why wouldn't people think still using. I'm shocked by how many people are shocked when I say seven years. Well, it dependense of those people, you count me in that category. Of course, you're permeating, I don't even follow a lot of that stuff. I don't follow the New York Post, but you're permeating all this during the election. I'm aware of the fact that you're an addict. There's not a press release that you got sober. There's no big headline that you got sober. I don't know until I think I see you on channel five. That was the first time I had seen you post all of that where I was like, oh wow, this dude's talking about it. This is Rad. He's sober. and what a fucking story And my kind of story. story, right Exactly. So let's go through it. I guess let's start in Wilmington, Delaware in nineteen seventy You arrive arrive. One year old brother on the scene. Yeahah. Yeah. Beow. How old much older is he there? A year and a day Yeah You guys really nailed Irish twins. exxactly stereotype. I guess technically we missed it by a day. Joe was not waiting. Yeahed a family l. Th my sister was born sixteen months apart? Really soon after. Oh, your mother, man. Three children under two and a half or something, that's bonkers. Yeah. I would imagine for you, it's really hard to know what to assume people know about you and what people don't because you're caught in the center of you. I think people vaguely know there was a tragedy. I think a lot of people don't know. I agree. I vaguely just like, oh yeah, Joe Biden went through hell when he first became a senor. I know he lost some family members, basically, right? But yeah, december eighteenth, nineteen seventy two, what's happening Go back, my dad was twenty nine and he decided that he was going to run for senate against this guy named Kaleb Bgs, twoo term governor. and I think at the time he was three term senator and this incredibly liked incumbent. And my dad ran this campaign. And Delaware, what you could do at the time in which she was able to reach almost every single voter by literally just ke my aunt, my uncles', my grandparents and my mom more than anybody. Canvas the whole state. Yeah. How many people lived in Delaware at that point? I bet you like six hundred thousand. Oh wow. You could conceiveably liiterally go meet everyone put a piece of literature on everyone's doorstep, every home in the state of Delaware. And what was his novel offering that people were like, Yeah? Remember nineteen seventy, you had a Nixon landslide also. And so he talked about civil rights and he talked about the environment And he talked about just new leadership. And he won by a razor thin margin, but he won and it was a shock to everyone I don't think it was a shock to my mom. Where did that put him historically his age? The youngest ever to win an election. So wow. He couldn't take the oath of office until he turned thirty. You can win, but you can't take the oath of office until you turn thirty. President's thirty five. President' thirty five and the House of Representatives twenty five. So anyway, he wins and he goes to DC for the day to interview potential staffers And my mom was supposed to go down because they just bought a house with us And she decided to delay it a day because she wanted to buy a Christmas tree. It was december eighteenth because we' celebrating Christmas in Delaware, I guess And she was pulling on from an intersection of a stop signs. There' a big hill and a tractor trailer in the side. It was me, my brother and our dog and my sister and my mother. and Beao and I survived, but just barely We were trapped in the car But my sister and my mom were killed. prettytty instantly, I imagine. I believe two. About to turn three. Three months away from three. Exactly. I was almost three, but I was almost four. Do you have anymory? I mean, I can't imagine you have any memory of the exact of the accident of yourself No, I have memories, you probably know this. It's very rare. They say like ten or fifteen percent of people have memories before the age of seven or five or something like that. I believe I do. Yeah. But I don't know if it's because so many people have told me in photographs. The trauma my added different I think so ye. And so I choose to believe that I actually have the memories the memory of my mom around these to carriers around like picnic baskets. It's also irrelevant whether you remember or not. Like we had Gabarate on, right? It like Gabar Matete was abandoned by his mother for a couple months. I love him. He's the greatest. He doesn't remember that, but all of his circuitry remembers that. It's set his arousal setting at that moment. Exactly. by the way I used to deny myself the idea that the accident and the trauma of it and the loss of my mother and my sister being in the car, all of that had any impact on An in my life. I was so surrounded by love and the immediate aftermath of that. and then going forward. like my dad, I don't give a shit what anybody thinks about him politically. My dad is literally the best dad in the entire world. He's even better grandfather, which pisses me off, but he is the best dad in the world. Also your aunt and uncles moved into the house Myu moved into the house, my aunt Valerie and my uncle Jimmy converted the garage into an apartment And my uncle Frankie was in and out and my grandparents On both sides, we spent every summer up in the Finger Lakes, up in Lake Aasco with the Hunters, who I'm named after probably spent at least two nights a week at my grandparents what we call Mum and dada, Bidens every week until I graduated high school. And on top of that, because of the notoriety of the thing, an entire state It's a small state. was Poland Aopted you guys. So everywhere we went, we had more aunts and uncles than anybody deserves and still do. And so I kind of always denied the idea You're like, I'm fine.. would probably would have felt ingrateful. That's exactly. the amount of love. And then my mom came along, my mom now. olding on J Seven, seeven. Yeah. I think seven, seven eight It's also relevant Sibaot received a ton of broken bones, right? Yeah, he was in a basically like an intraction in a body cast for a long time. But you had a fractured skull and brain damage Yeah Yeah. ye. Oh my God. I know. Like how could it not impact? You tested that brain but you nailed it. I felt guilty. thinking that my life was anything this bundle of love. Did you guys do a lot of debriefing about it or processing it? Not the accident itself, but we talked about my mother and still do incessantly. She didn't pretend that she did not pretend in any way that she did not exist, including my mom. when my mom became She honored the memory of my mother in a very real way. I mean, I talk to my aunts and uncles about it to this day about how by all accounts, and obviously I'm biased, my mother was a extraordinary human being Everyone will tell you that my dad got elected at the age of twenty nine for one reason. It was because of my mother. So your ride up until Georgetown, you're at a private school Catholic, mayaybe a Jesuit school. No, it's not Jesuit Norbatine, but I started off My aunt V was a teacher at the Wilmington Friend School, So a littleittle Quaker schoolchool in Delaware. It was great. And I went there until ninth grade My dad had gone to Archmere, which is a little Catholic school on the border of PA in Delaware And I played football and I decided to go because my brother had gone there, which was probably a mistake.. But well just I'm much more suited for the Quaker ethic than I am to the Norbatine Catholic schoolchool Ethhic. but I have great friends there. How were you in Bauiff? We were Inseparable And we fought like brothers fight, but no one else could fight my brother without me or somebody do something to me without my brother standing in the w. My brother would kick my ass, then go beat up the bully a minute later. Yeah I were more evenly matched. I know that I was much more pregnacious than he was the difference between us is that Bo was an extrovert And also, he had a confidence that was just immediate. You can ask anybody. B was an extraordinary human being. and I mean, everybody called him the sheriff. He never drank He was always the guy that drove the car. He was always the one that was, you know, cutting people off when they're about to do something stupid. N he was like that from the time he was eight years old. And I loved drawing and I loved poetry and I loved sports, but I also loved playing with my army men by myself in my room.. You were sensitive. You were sensitive. I was much, much, much more sensitive. Addicts generally are. Yeah It's part of our They are They are because we're not stupid. It Exactly. That's what I always say. But that was the difference between us He was a constant presence in my life in only the most beautiful way that I can ic Yeah. You go to Georgetown, you get a history degree, whereere you always set on going to law school? How did you decide that? So when I was at Georgetown, the best part about Georgetown was that I got to meet these really incredibly fascinating young Jesuit priests that were very much a part of campus life at least back then. And I met a guy named Ted Diziak who had started a thing called the Jesuit International Volunteer Corps. It's basically like a peace Corps It's done under the auspices of the Jesuit community. But it's not cumenical, You don't go out and proselytize or anything. They're not trying to convert people. you can go out if you're Methodist,'s just ub And they had a beachhead in Belize in Nepal and Micronesia at the time. And we started a thing called the Jesuit International Volunteer Summer Program in Belize. And because of that, I was really involved also in a thing called the Center for Immigation Policy and Refugee Assistance. and there was another Jesuit there that ran that. He was one of like the OG refugee and immigrant advocates in the country. And I was involved in that And I decided that I was going to do the Peace Corps. And another guy guy ned naming all this people nobody's Father Watson, Bill Watson, He said, whyy are you going abroad? Join JBC, which is a domestic version of the Peace Corps. What about Portland? Exactly. Because he was from Portland, which by the way, was the greatest thing ever because this was nineteen ninety It's just the coolest place in the world. Coffee, cigarettes, grrun. Yeah, exactly. I mean, like I sat in Pal's bookstore and read all the beat poets. You had an endless cup of coffee and three packs of cigarettes. and you live with other volunteers, you make eighty bucks a month. That's all you get. And you pull your money together for groceries, but you're riding the bus and you're working in the community, and' living in the community that you work in forortune me in the basement of a church figuring out how to get people food or get their lights turned back on or You know, get the heat turn back on and winter. It was the greatest thing ever. And you met your first wife there? Yes, exactly. And she was a volunteer also And then we shortly after that had Naomi. We got married. I went to law school. I did my first year at Georgetown. you were married with a kid at twenty three, right? Exactly. Yeah. And I had Naomi On my last exam of my first semester of law school, and the professor let me out of the exam. So I took it after Christmas and he gave me an A. And I did really well, and I'd always wanted to go to Yale. I got rejected and I didn't think I was necessarily going to get in, but I did really well and got into Yale as a transfer. except like five to seven people a year Sidebar, was it interesting to leave the bubble for the first time and go to Portland in that you grew up in Delaware, Dad's a senator. It's politics, politics, politics, and you go to Georgetown, which is in DC. Again, you must set up think the entire country thinks about politics all the time and cares. Yeah. And then you go to Portland and was it nice to get an outside perspective? And did you feel that happening? Yeah not as much because I needed an outside perspective from the politics thing difference with bone eye was that we never grew up in that. We grew up in Delaware. My dad took the train back and forth every day. And so in a state of six hundred, which is like now, I think a million people or just under a million people. Everybody knows my dad, and you guys kind of get this idea. I mean Uncle Joe, they know him as Joe. Like when I get pulled over by the cops, it wasn't sorry, sir. It was like, I can't wait tntil I see your dad. He's gonna kick your ass. You know what I mean? that was our existence. When I went to Georgetown That was a little bit different, but still not overwhelming. It's not like anybody knew who I was by the way that people on the street know who I am now. So when I went to Portland though, you're absolutely right. I don't know what you think about the addiction thing. But for me now in retrospect, particularly this time, this last seven years, in which I had to kind of make a choice, the ultimate choice to live or die so many of the decisions that I made in my life that had really terrible ers All based in fear Fear of judgment, fear of sticking out, fear being found out, fear of showing truly who you are. But when I was in Portland I could be the guy that was sitting and reading Ginsburg and the Paris review could launch and Bal. Exactly while I was making eighty bucks a month and not giving a shit Can you think at this age? So if I do it, it's like There's some really Memorable moments with using. One is the very first time I decided to drink some beers out of the fridge. My dad was a recovering addict, so I was never gonna do it. Then one day I was like, no, gonna do I'm gonna find out on my own. And I do remember having like three beers out of the fridge and literally thinking, o, fuck, this is the feeling I've been craving and couldn't articulate I don't know. I can't compare it to non addicts, but just immediately, I was like This is a magic one hundred percent. I know exactly where I was. I know exactly what happened. I was at an adult party with my brother I picked up a champagne glass, went underneath a table with a tablecloth over it, dragged a glass and thought to myself Oh my god This is the answer to everything. Oh yeah, truly. Because then I left underneath the table and I danced with everybody and I was happy. and I didn't continue to drink. All the trolls clipped this stuff. I wasn't drinking at the age of eight. But I remember that experience. You know, when people said, why did you do it? Because it worked. Well, yeah, it's a medicine that worked. It works. And it works like that. And then you find something that works even better. I played football, so you know, during the football season, none of us would drink. China And it's what we did. It's what we did on the weekends. Yeah, what are you going do? be the one person not doing it? It's a hard thing to ask. Yeah. know time I really drank after I was eight, remember what it was? exactly. and talk about regulating emotion is a friend of mine had taken his parents's car with another friend of mine. They had a couple beers or whatever and was speeding down one of these back roads in Delaware and ran into a tree and she died instantly Talk about the wrong response to that. The wrong response to that was He was my best friend at the time is that we stole beers in the back of this house. And I remember the enormous guilt I don't think I've ever told this story. I remember my dad picked me up from his house the morning after we between his drank a twelve pack, I guess or whatever. But you know, you're fifteen years old going to mass we'd go to mass every Sunday. that Staint Joose on a brandy wine, littleittle Catholic church and having to leave and tell my dad, I think I had the flute and thrown up outside And I think it was less a response to the alcohol than it was to the normity of the guilt I had just Our friend, the consequences for him happen were enormous. And the guilt of that And as you know, guilt is appropriate, but the thing that is not is the shame So then what's the only thing that you know, your brain is telling you work so that you don't have to feel that shame and anxiety over that shame or the thing that you're not telling somebody. Oh, I know, have another drink. Yeah. So that was like at fifteen. and then it's just cycle. So when I get to Portland, I've made it through college. I actually did pretty well, Not without October Fest in Burlington, Vermont, got in a street fight and somebody curbed me and broke every b out of my Oh my gos. Stomped on my leg on the curb and broke my leg in three places. I was in a cast for six months and you know, I mean, o, it was awful That didn't stop me. Yeah That didn't stop me. So when I speed up to Portland, there's this whole new me No expectations, noobody that knows all of the small town or the small college kind of groups and it's filled with purpose Yeah, it was incredibly promising. And so I drank and obviously to excess, I don't know what your drinking was like, but I was in a blackout drunk unfortunately. I really wish I blacked out because I could go and go and go. Yeah The bill never came due at that age. No, And the truth of the matter was' because I wasn't engaging in anything in which the bill came do We were going to Nickel Beers at Knob Hill in Portland And playing pool. We didn't have any more like a chig, yeah Stay tuned for more ar Yeah. We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. 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Squarespace makes it feel like a step. Beautiful templates, built in SEO, email campaigns, scheduling, analytics, everything you need o go from I've been working on this to here it is, come find me. All in one place, no code, no stitching together a bunch of different tools. So if you've been sitting on something and waiting for the right moment, this might be it. Head to squarespace dot com slash DAax for a free trial, and when you're ready to launch, use offer code DAax to save ten percent off your first purchase of a website or domain This episode is supported by Helix. All right, let's talk about something we both really care deeply about. sleep. It's the most important thing. I've had my Helix mattress for years now and I genuinely think it's one of the best investments you can make for your home. Mine still feels just like it did when I first got it. Well, that's the thing. It's not one of those mattresses that caves in after six months. These things are built to last. And you know, I'm a side sleeper I ordered a side sleeper and I get hot so I have cooling. and I can't tell you how much more comfortable it is to be in there not sweating and tossing and turning. Cooling is really important. I've read that you're supposed to sleep a little bit cold. So I also have cooling. and they have over twenty models, so it's not a one size fits all situation. You just go take their quiz and they match you to what actually works for your body Plus, they've got cooling upgrades, which heading into summer, non negotiable. Truly Go to helixleep dot com slash armchair for twenty percent off. That's helixleep dot com slash armchair for twenty percent off. Make sure you enter our show name after checkout so they know we sent you Hixleep dot com slash armchair When's the first time it occurs to you? I think this is like for the lay personerson, there's these kind of stereotypes that are true and not true, which is first of all this notion of like a bottom, which is like There's not a bottom. I had like thirty. I always say a bottoms your're dead ay be in jail if you're like But just that moment you go, oh, I should have died last night or I should have died over the last four days. This is life or death. That's a bottom. Yeah. And you go, are we going to keep going? And often you keep going, even though you write you find a new bottom. When do you recognizing, I do this differently than people and probably I'll have to quit at some point. When I was twenty nine, I start to realize my pattern of drinking was unlike anyone, not anyone because you find your group. You know what I mean? But even among those heavy drinkers, I would still be going at six in the morning while guys doing. And then when I was thirty three, my wife at the time said, like you need to slow it down. Were you accumulating any wreckage? Had you gotten DUIs? you No? No. You're keeping it pretty. Yeah. And I, you know, built my own law firm. I graduated from Yale. It did really well from law school. and I was a senior executive vice president at a major bank when I got out of law school and then I went to work for the Clinton administration. of Lima. Yeah. You're doing well. You're getting gigs that other people aren't getting. You're able to shore up the plummeting self esteem from the addiction with these external things. And I had three kids by the way. right. But are you also thinking that maybe it's a part of your success? Like I could see you kind of anyone being sort of like Well, this is part of the whole recipe. I do this and I'm successful. and it becomes a part of your identity. I. Yeah. definitely. And what I always say when people come to me, and I love it because I say to them, I don't have any answer for you other than getting clean and sover is easy. All you have to do is change everything. But it becomes a part of your identity and you think What am I going to do What am I going to do on a Thursday? Yeah What am I going do on a F Vacation? What am I going do on Tuesdays? Everything revolves around drinking. What am I going to do on vacation? When I celebrate? What am I do at five o'clock? Yeah Yeah five o'clock. eleven Yeah try eleven eight. Yeah, exactly. Can I sprinkle in another, I think facet of this very complex system of addiction? I think for men At least for me, there's a big chunk of masculinity involved in this whole journey for me, which is again, I was the dude who went harder than anyone and I showed up and did my shit and I had great pride in that. That was a real indicator of my alpha masculinity. It validated me. This scratching incline for this validation of being appropriately masculine was also some facet of it. I don't know what percentage, but it was in the mix. Was that happening for you to All of that fear. of really being seen, you build up this persona of being tougher than anybody, more capable than anybody. Beause really, I'm just a sensitive dude who wants to entertain people. I love my daughter. It becomes a shield for everything and it becomes this identity. It iss literally the polar opposite of your true self. ' I'm not that guy. I don't want to be that guy. And so doing a speech, doing anything public. I needed a drink to do it. I thought I needed a drink to do it. In the past life If this was seven years ago for me The idea that I wouldn't literally be a puddle on this couch Just if you put a microphone in front of my face and knowing that there's a camera in the room or that I had to get on a stage and do something. I'm so afraid of that. Now, unfortunately for everyone, I don't Eactly. So I do do a lot more. But you're exactly right. So it becomes your persona and what happened with me is what I did was like, okay, I'm going to prove to everybody that this is not a problem. I'm not going to drink for January I're going to do thirty days and I'd get six I say o Oh, that was just one break. was for the weekend. And then what ends up happening is then you start hiding it, it becomes binge even more. And then I'd be like, hey, I got a trip that I got to do for business. and that business trip would be two days that would stretch into four that would stretch into five and then it would come home. You're dead on arrival. I just laughing at how many times the game plan evolved so quickly. It's like, yeah, thirty days and it just weekends No Just Wednesdays and weekends. Josh Beard, not Jack Daniels. Well not And it just erode so fucking quickly From the abence to like one day a week full on it's topical Dependence. There is physical dependence that people take outeration. Yeah, it's like you can't actually just stop at any moment. You kind of have to like trape And if you're an addict, you can' tie trape. L it's this crazy. noobody talks about it. noody talks about all of that in terms of the wellness piece of it and ways to be able to mitigate that and how you should do it with somebody to really do it understanding what you're doing. But regardless is that for me it became so many promises made, so many promises broken around alcohol I was just like, hey, let's do something about this for real. Let's start to look And I found crossroads in Antigua, Er Clapton's place. Oh, I sent my best friend Aaron there. It's great. By the way, it was for me. At that time, and this is what is it two thousand three, so twenty two twenty three years ago. It's in Antigua, but it's not a resort. And you earn swimming privileges. like Earon would call me and be like, Ohh yeah, I did all bling. I'm going to get to swim in the ocean today for two hours. Exactly. Yeah get to go on the bus to go to the ocean to go swimming. And it has a real community aspect, at least when I was there, they were really wonderful. And I get there with all of those preconceived notions of how my life is going to be so empty because I don't have alcohol in it anymore. And I was introduced to the program. all of a sudden I was like Wait a second. this may work. and I got out My brother picked me up from the airport And immediately drove to a meeting over at Dupont Circle Club. Oh lot a big brother. I know He went into there was an open meeting. He went to the meeting with me That makes me fucking emotional. She goes up to this guy and says, Hey He sponsored people because he had spoken in the thing. And he goes, yeah, of course. He goes, I'm gonna introduce my brother. And I got my sponsor. I stayed clean over and again, I hate the distinction. What is the distinction? Well, you say you're sober if you're not drinking, when you say you clean in the other program if you're not using drugs.'s all drugs. But anyway, I was not on any mind alterating substances whatsoever for about a seven year period of time And did you love the program? I lovely novel. still I still love it Yeah Yeahah the same. Those people that I met are still clean and sober than when I say people, like a handful that through everything It always been a lifeline for me. If I had my phone in front of me, you'd find like four texts every day from those same people that gave me a lifeline back. When you're looking at the landscape in front of you, yes, all you see is all the things you're not going to have, like the camaraderie with friends, the intimacy with men, the thing to do on vacation, the celebration, the sv for disappointment. You're very aware of all the things you're going to lose But what you don't consider is you're also going to lose this impossible weight that has been on your shoulders, which is the shame and guilt and regreg. I hope. But you don't even know that yet. You can't conceive of a moment where you won't be walking around feeling like the biggest piece of shit that ever lived. That's not even in your imagination yet. And I think the gift of it that's kind of hard to sell kids on or sell people that are new to it is like You can't really even imagine what it's like to walk through life with maybe regrets, but not shame. and you've made amends and you're walking free of all that Beause for most of us, it's been decades since we knew what that feeling was like. It's impossible Chell somebody. The only thing that we can do is is show them. and hope that they get the chance to experience it. Yeah And by the way, that seven years, it wasn't like I was hanging on by the skin of my teeth in any way, but what I now know is that I had not fully done the work because It was that armor that still existed in which that shame still lived. and not even about specific things, just about truly being me. And so anyway, I relapse. Yeah. I'm on a plane And it was twenty ten, I think, and I'm coming back from a business trip in Europe clean soilver, I have been upgraded to like this business class, but I was the only one in there. She comes buy with a cart. and is bloody Mry cart, like a full bloody Merry cart. And I swear to God, You know when through my head One of my counselors at Crossroads and told me a story. about how he been sober seven years and he had a drink on a plane on his way to Washington, D.C from the West cooast. And he woke up in Indianapolis, Indiana in a motel. Why that would be a in any way, like I try to. Maybe I should try this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. but I did. I had a drink. Yeah Of course, I didn't have one Bloody Mary on that plane, in which I think I probably came and told people that in my group I had And I got off the plane and I went to a corner store on the way home and picked up, you know a fifth of Srnoff in that plastic bottle and put it in my bag So then About a year later, Bow comes It says Back to Antigua, Pal. Are you like Oh my God, my brother has to keep. Do you have guilt about that? No, no't I don't have any guilt about how much my brother adored me. He wasn't like, oh Godd, I gott to goit one hundred. He was like, What the fuck? You've been trying so hard. We let's get you back, man, you're doing great. When we get back, I'll go to meet. I think the meings are great. I love it. I could use it too. I was like never any. like talk about unconditional love that we had between each other Anyway, thanks, Monica. Now I think I maybe should have been guilty of not jo joking. I reallyutting people down. hard of as shame. I had guilt with my wife at the time. I had guilt with my kids who adored and adore me. But then I cycled. Then it was like I came back to Mntigo that time. I got shingles three months later. Somebody prescribed me oxycodone. I started down that path, and which led to a bottle of smirinoff. And I was in that cycle and then Bo got diagnosed with globlastoma in twenty fourteen. It's a death sentence. If I were you carrying around, I'm a piece of shit and I'm a scumbag. And my sweet brother gets this diagnosis. I would The amount of shame it would exponentially triggering me that I should be the one dying. Why on earth would it be him? one hundred percent. You already have this latent survivor guilt There is is And this is why I opened up to the idea that I can talk about that trauma now because of course it had something to do with everything. and just forget about the drinking or addiction. just in terms of my fear, you already have that Lat and sururvivors go Divorce dreams that I ever had in my life as a kid. was My brother gu I remember vividly. the only nightmares that I ever remembered was that Lose and bow and that became True playing in slow motion. Like you know The end is near coming and it's going to be awful And it was awful. And I did things like I decided to join the Navy and I relapsed the day before I went into the Navy reseserves at the age of forty two. Pissed hot. I get yeah, pissed hot, discharge from the discharge from the Navy Reserve I now Soever I'm going through all of the treatments with Bow and all of the things that we're trying and you get down to the end, they're doing experimental stuff. But anyway He passed away thirtieth of May eleven years ago And from there on out, just everything, not because of him. Regardless of that, I just as easily could have completely screwed everything up. Yeah, evenven if he had stayed healthy. Yeah, even if he stayed healthy. It accelerated Yeah. And the biggest thing that it accelerated is immediately after Bo die, my marriage fell apart I mean, immediately after we tempted to do things. I attempted to go back to the rehab, I stayed in. I had it. Sober coach, everybody was afraid that I was going to kill myself. that had all fell apart within a year Do you rem you must. It's a rhetorical question, but the first time you smokeed crack. From June of two thousand. fifteen to the end of June of twenty sixteen. had in and out I did like forty five days in an imppatient came out and I did this thing where I had this guy that three times a day it' have to blow into a breathalyzer and it takes a picture of you. so I was doing that. and then I had a relapse over Christmas, Dicey on its own. Yeah. I relapse I admit that I relapse, I go back into an outpatient program, which is like six hours a day in DC, but I'm living by myself for the first time in forty six years. And by the way, nobody's fault but my own. Just to be clear, I'm not blaming my It doesn't sound like you are. Yeah. I think it's even more important me to say that over and over again and I relapseed, I used cocaine. and I drink I come back into the program on the Monday and I say, Hey, I relaxed. I drank. and I use cocaine And they said, you got to go take the drug test. And I said, I'm not going to take the drug test It's not protected by HIPA. You're in a rehab facility, not in a a categorized medical facility. It's discoverable and I don't want to do that. I'm telling you what I did I'm not keeping anything out. They said, Well, unless you take the drug test You're not coming back in And so It was on K Street in DC then I walk out And I know Lincoln Park, which is literally two blocks away. and I knew the worst possible thing that I could do was G sm crack And that's what I decided was the answer Yeah And I did. And it was revelation And again, Joe Rogan. I don't mean this is a love letter. What I mean it is is it adds the ultimate warning. from someone whose life was torn apart by it. it was staggeringly immediate and that began a cycle. people who don't know. So when you snort cocaine, it goes into your sinuses, it slowly dissolves, it slowly enters your bloodstream When you smoke it, your lungs converted immediately. They dump it all in your blood. The only thing's faster is shooting it in orraveneously. It's a different experience because you're getting all of it right away. And there's a piece about crack that also is this idea that crack is dirty. But really the truth of the matter is the way that you manufacture crack, I figured out how to do that pretty quickly and got much better and better and better at it. Most of the impurities that you could find in it when things were mixed get burned out. And so it's a very, very pure form of the drug, which a immmediate There's a really crazy study that I heard at of the University of Pennsylvania in which crack addicts they did these brain li b images, but live with smoking. The highest that you get as a crack addict is the millisecond Before you ever ingest a drug.. That's the dopamine d.. And that's the power of the drug. It's not even the drug. It's literally power of the brain. The power of the brain It's crazy. And so it work really effectively. What you're looking for is like the micron before obliteration is the goal Which is so fucked up. So fucked up. God, it's so fucked up 's sad. I mean, that's why when you tell the stories about people saying degenerate crack addicts and stuff it's like, who cant hear these things and not think One, than God, I don't have that to This is sad. We need to help people to like shame to add to the shame. I do not understand. Yeah As if the person's like thriving in life like upset literally kking some shit in cars, smoking pipes. As you can see from the thousands of pictures, I was not thriving. I. You want to try pl There were a few that was pretty good though You into deps I didn't. I became aware of your story because a woman that spent some time with you wrote some piece that I happen to read And I quite enjoyed it for a few reasons. A She Lg liked you. This woman who wrote this thing. I don't know specifically what I was like. Let'says something. if you can hang out with an addict who's fucking smoking rock all day long and you come out of that, you still kind of like the b that's really kind of revealing 'cause you're at your darkest, shittiest, monstrous. You're just a bottomless pit, right? of giveive me more of everything So the fact that that person still had kind of a kind opinion of your iPhone fasting, but also it was an interesting perspective to see the person orbiting someone in that zone and then just imagining people that orbited me when I was in that zone. I never really get to hear what that person's experience is like. You kind of heard from a lot of them. I overc compompensated knowing what I was doing to myself being as Passionate empathetic and generous to a fault, you know, basically come beat me up Well you were getting robbed all the time? All the time. I mean, I don't know how many laptops and phones that were stolen for me. And I don't say this like, o, I was such a victim. The way that I assuaged my guilt was I just would give it all away or know that it was going to be taken all the away. And it didn't matter who it was. It didn't matter if it was bicycles who lived with me in my apartment knowing that she was robbing me blind every day, or whether it was a prostitute, by the way, which was all about drugs. That's the fastest way to be able to figure out if you want to figure I'm not going to tell people to figure out how to get drugs is that that's the easiest entry way, particularly for someone like me into that world Eventually I had to go down to like the Fower district at four o'clock in the morning and score and nowhere to go. You have guns, you know, in my face. You're not naive, you're a smart dude. You went to Yale. You also recognize like I am desperate for this thing. Yeah people around me are even more desperate because they don't have any means And so I'm not naive. Yeah, I'm gonna to get taken for a ride. and I'm willing to get taken for a ride because I want access to the thing. It's all a terrible symbiosis ex of destb. And I consciously knew that I was killing myself. one hundred percent do it go up and even during that period of time, like I Went for treatment and did IBogain and five MEO DMT therapy. Were any of those effective? They hear about people claiming I think that they can be very, very effective. My experience with five MEO DMT was one of the most spiritually enlightening things that I've ever done, but that's because I did the IBaain before it, which was not as effective for me because I was smoking crack up until the three hours before I went and did it Iibbogaine is I think one of the strongest, if not strongest psychoactive pollucinogen on the planet. It's a plant from the Iiboga plant in Africa that they've used for thousands of thousands of years. Studies have shown that it has a great impact, particularly with people with PTSD and opiate addictions. It's a very, very long lasting twelve at least my experience was like over twelve hours. know, And then I went and tried to do Ayahuaza and I did that frog toad venom where they cut your arms and purge you. You know I went to this Charlatan in Massachusetts and did ketamine infusion therapy. But all the time I'm still using and I believe in those things and I believe in those alternative things, not as an answer, but as additive to something. if you approach it with the respect that the plant medicine actually requires from you. I don't want to ever do any of them again. Yeah. I'm afraid to do anything. But also yeah the notion that you're gonna take one thing to break your to break it your desire to take another thing. but it can be when you're really healthy is it can be a mind expanding experience. It can break up neural networks that have existed since the first trauma and it can rewire new pathways. You see literally if anyone ever really, really stops to think about it is kind of the perennial philosophy of the connection of all things, that everything is love. And I don't mean love in terms of themor sense of it, but in terms of there is no distinction between me you, this table, this Eth, the universe and anything else. At least that's the experience I. These are arbitrary boundar. impossible to articulate. Beautiful thing to experience But it's not the answer. The one thing is you still come back from that. And if you're filled with shame and fear It's just the wreckage is just piling up. You I have lost your family You have a relationship with your brother's widow? I mean awful Grief addiction, loneliness, and every other thing that you can come up with to think why something like that would have been a good idea for anyone while you know that you're tearing your family apart. We talk about the shame and the only thing has, you know, is being able to talk about it knowing that like I'm going to talk about this now and there's going to be four hundred people that are going to come into your comments and say, what does Gumbag, you know what I mean? And by the way, and me say like, yeah, I don't know. By the way, I don't know. and I don't care. maybe put it this way is that when I was in the depths of my addiction. I did some Really, really shameful things that I have no excuse for. And I don't think that drrugs and alcohol and addiction are ever an excuse But I do know this Certainly part of an explanation.. No, I can observe you off of it and I can observe you on it and they're pretty distinct creatures. I think people have some fantasy of what the crack scenes like, but Again, when I've been with friends, it's like Full vulnerability, full lack of any fear that you'd be judged, full expression of yourself. That's the joy of the thing is like, I'm You got it. tellelling you how much I love you and that's so scary for me to do Sober as a dude. Yeah. It's just hard to find many compatriotsatriots that group smaller and smaller ands smaller until you're in a super eight motel off of ninety five in West Haven. in Connecticut. The of all of our stories is ultimately is isolation. So even if there's twenty people in the other room, Eactly, you're in a closet smoking crack and you really don't want to be interrupted. and you just need that there to know you're not completely alone even though you are. I think it's maybe worth maybe should have done this earlier To remind people of the difference between shame and gu because those are very different. and correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like shame is I'm bad And guilt is I did something bad. Y exactly. So to me As a good Catholic boy. Wh doesn't really practice much anymore, but I learned some good things is that, yeah, guilt's an appropriate thing. Yeah, we should have should feel bad about this, that and the other thing. You know, go read my book. I feel bad for it all. Yeah. And what you should do about that is that you should tone and make it amends. And don I mean tone, like go you know, whip yourself with thistles on your back until you bleed. go and say, I'm fucking sorry. Yeah. I apologize. Not expect the other person to say, Ohh, I forgive you. o You make it clear that you know that you did wrong Shame is I will never ever be good enough. You're I'm unworthy of. I'm unworthy. I'wthy. I'm soess worthy of trust. I unmworthy of my own self love. I mean, that's the thing about the honesty. the biggest thing to get honest about. Like I always talk about this thing, radical honesty You got to get honest with yourself. That's what like you really, really, really do. And I never really knew what that meant though. You hear all of these things in the room, even like the Serenity Payer. Well, what the fuck does it mean? know the difference between, you know, like I don't don' know. But there was a moment when I finally put it down almost seven years ago. It wasn't by any virtue of my own. I had that experience of like it wasn't a white light But it was like of a choice. There's a tiny window open right now Yes. And if you don't step through it, you're going to be dead. as clear as you two sitting ac cross for me I want to do two seconds on this because it just kind of came up and again, I can forget. Now look, I relapsed on opiates, but I haven't drank in twenty two years, right? I'm pretty removed from 'cause each of these addictions has their own specific personality. I talked to opiate addicts and I had that experience and that's one experience. It's much different from the hardcore alcoholic experience for me. But I was reminded of this because my best friend who I sented treatment and I were talking about a third friend who is hardcore going through right now. And I was reminded. We were just talking about. I called him to say how grateful I am. He's sober seeing this other friend. I'm just so grateful. And we were talking and what we both agreed about that I think might be again enlightenning to people is like There's a point where There's a third rail in your mind. It's not necessarily you want to die You want to die period of time Long enough that when you wake up, All of the wreckage will magically be gone. Like there's this third desire. It is obliteration in death, but it's not I remember not wanting permanent death, but I definitely wanted to die for like three or four years and then wake up with a clean slight. That was like a bit of a fantasy. Dappear It was a literal fantasy with me. Think about it. I came out to California I told everybody I was going to rehab becausecause I was going to disappear was in my head is I'm going to disappear for three years And then Either I'm dead, but more realistically, I'll come back a new man. You know. But I was disappearing for all intents and purposes, if any rational person wouldist There's a little boy in you that's like maybe if I run away long enough, they'll remember that they loved me and that they missed me and they'll forget about all this. First time I ran away, what I did is I wrote a note and then I went hiding under my bed so that I couldar everybody tell me how much they missed me. Y. That's what it was. Yeah. And it doesn't go away. just you're still acting like that as like a full grown Oh man Eactly. We're all just kids. fifteen years old. L if I discover for three years, they'll be so glad when I walk back up the driveway, we could put all this behind us. Yeah don't go away Stay tuned for more ar. If you dare This episode is sponsored by Better Help So Monica, here's something that really stuck with me. BetterHelp's twenty twenty six state of stigma repeport surveyed two thousand Americans and revealed that eighty five percent of Americans believe getting support is wise. Yet seventy four percent say society discourages people from doing so. That's a huge gap. Most of us agree therapy is a good thing, but there's still something holding some people back from actually going Right. And I think that's where just talking about it, normalizing it makes a difference. I mean, as you know, I'm I obsessed with thepy I've been in it consistently for years and years and years. and I have said this and I shouldn't say it, but I do think if you're struggling and you've been struggling for a while and you haven't sought therapy, I judge you a little bit. Oh Okay Yeah. I know I'm not And I gott to go to therapy to work on that, you know, but also there are options for you. You can help yourself And Better Help makes that first step easier. They match you with a licensed therapist based on your needs and with over thirty thousand therapists and twelve plus years of experience, they typically get the match right the first time. Don't let stigma stand in the way of support. Start therapy with Better Help. Sign up and get ten percent off at betterhelp dot com slash DAax. That's betterhlp dot com slash DAax This episode is brought to you by Sopfi all in one finance app where you can bank, borrow, and invest all in one place. 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Select podcast in the survey and be sure to select Armchair experpert in the dropd down menu that follows Not only did my fantasy not come true The whole world right when I got clean in June of twenty nineteen just fell top of my head outside my doorstep in every single crevice and nook and cranny my life You were being accused of Every brokering deals with the Ukrainian oligarch to win favor. Yeah O this, let me ask you. Certainly your behavior couldn't have been above board. For fifteen years well your own desperation was raging, right hereere's what I own. Yeah. Is there any validity to some of the Here's the validity. The validity is I should never have taken the board seat with Bereisma That's the validity of it. That's the Ukrainian the Ukraineian comp. oil and gas company. It was not with Ukraine, was not with a foreign government. It was not with an oligarch. It was public about going on the board I served on fourteen other boards before that. I was chairman of the board the U.S. World Food Program, the largest humanitarian organization in the world. I was vice chairman of the board of the largest railroad company in the world, which is the National passassener Ril system, which is Amtrak I was ch Chairman of the booard of the Truman National Security Project, Chairman of the Board of the Center for National Policy I was a professor at Georgetown's Master's P program in the School Foreign Service for four years I had my own business and consulting and I had been in more places in the world than ninety nine point nine percent of people. Very high functioning atticts.. Ely That makes a hard by the way And I was up counsel to, at the time, the most prestigious law firm doing corporate governance at Boyyschildter and Flexer and had my own business And so when they came to ask me be on the board, I said, no I would represent them as a lawyer And I represented the lawyer in the former president of Poland, the first democratically elected president of Poland, President of Kaznevsy, asked me after representing them for two or three months because they were under an extreme inordinate amount of pressure from the invasion in Donbas, where their wells were from the Russians entire purpose of that incursion into Eastern Ukraine was to extract and take over but they could not take over the single greatest resource in Ukraine, which is natural gas And so he convinces me that we'll be public about it, you'll be transparent about it. and you come on the board It obviously turns out to be a mistake, but not because of anything that I did and not because of anything thing that my dad did. And the reason that we know this is this. is because you have twentyw five years of my entire digital footprint Every single email I think I literally am probably the only person in the world. If this happened to anybody else Every photo that you ever took, every selfie, every voicemail, every single text message, every email that you've took in twenty five years dumped in the internet and to this day remain there whether it is your Selfies news or whatever, we're out there. But ninety percent of us are getting canceled. Oh yeah. e the way, one hundred percent people would get cancer. Yes There's not one single email text message. They have all my voicemails. I have voicemails from my dad saying, sweetheart, please. Where are you? You need to get help. I mean, they have everything. There's not a single thing in that in which I say, hey, dad or hey dad's Chief of staff or hey dad's secretary, or hey anybody's I'm getting paid by these guys. We need to do this. Not a single one. There's a text message in which the board seecretary of Bisma says, it was nice meeting your dad And I know we were at a restaurant together and he shut down and there were ten other people at the table. He was in from Ukraine. I introduced him to my dad and that's it. Now they had an impeachment hearing over that So I take responsibility for doing something that could ever cause the perception of that. Yeah. Now. notot to get political These guys are doing now, and I hate even putting the comparison between the two. Because that was the standard by which we as a family had lived. And here's the point. I really don't care about rehashing that, but I'm more than willing to and welcome it. But what they did was two thousand and Teen There was a Ukrainian Russian oligarch who was offering for sale my laptop. This's before The laptop repair shop guy ever existed He was offering it for sale and Rudy Giuliani, along with Lev Parnness and a guy Igor Fruman that he deputized, went to Ukraine and then to Austria eventually were on their way to Austria to buy this hard drive. And they never made it because Leb Paris gets arrested. Leb Parnis, he's one that got arrested. He was working for Rudy and he gets thrown to the wolves. and so he tells the whole story. In truth, Rachel Mano made a whole documentary about it called from Russia with Leb Lev points out that what they did was and what they eventually found was a record of my addiction And that was going to be the October surprise The problem was is that In between that time I had sat down with Adamentos the New Yorker And I had told my whole story. Nobody told me to You went rogue for that one. one hundred percent roue. Yeah ye. But intuitively I knew. and this was the difference between any other time that I'd gotten clean or sober which is call from this guy, he wants to talk about Ukraine. I say Where are you from? He's from the New York. I had an obsession as a kid with the New Yorker. thought it was the greatest publication ever to the point where I had the cover cut out taped up to my wall And then I read some of his work and he's an incredible journalist. and I said, I talk to him He just was really honest and I told him my whole story as it related to addiction And so I had out it myself Adam said, onene of the first calls that he got after he did that story was from Steve Bannon said you M ever. You scooped us. And so they had it. They had the hard drive. They had the phones. They had the laptop and two phones that were stolen in Las Vegas. They had a laptop that I left at my psychologists office in Massachusetts that was there for a year and passed around. What a hunt for all this. Oh, yeah, exactly.. And then a laptop repair shop owner who happens to be blind, literally legally blind turns over not to anybody except surprise, surprise. My art nemesist Rudy Giuliani and his lawyer. Cbble it together and cobble all of these sources together And they present it to the world two weeks before the election. And remember, what Rudy did is he went to the courthouse steps in Newcastle County, Delaware with a laptop, which was no such thing with Bernie Karrick of all people who's now God arrested assault dead, but he was the former police chief who was indicted for bribery and fraud And they go to the steps and they say, This is a record of degenerate, there are inappropriate pictures of minors and they do exactly what is elimination rhetoric, which is an old Russian trick. accususe them literally of the worst thing. What am I supposed to say in that two weeks and the world is coming down. And so forty NSA, former security officials come out and they say this has all the earmarks. We're not saying that it is, but it hass all the earmarks of Russian propaganda And then Twitter. which was Twitter suppresses a story for a twenty four hour period of time, not because of the content of the story, but the content of the photographs, which were nude photographs of me, which violates their terms of service. Yeah That's the only reason is New York ost put on their front page, me with The private parts blurtred out naked, which by the way, is against the law because of the bill Melania had just passed the Take it Down Act. But then it becomes a suppression story. And they would have won the election if everybody just had known what was in the laptop. Okay Well, now you've had seven years. Everybody All of you And I include the two of you and me and everybody else.. You've had my entire digital footprint, unlike anyone that I know of in human history available to you for a twenty five year period of time. And what do you find Literally nothing other than I was a degenerate crack addict. And I was in rooms I should not have been. And I was with people and prostitutes and dancers and drug dealers smoking crack and doing other drugs and ninety percent of the text messages you do not find anything about foreign corruption or bribery or anything like that. finally after two years, they come back and they offer me a plea agreement because I failed to pay my taxes on time in that period of time which I had subsequently paid with penalties and interest of over eight hundred thousand dollars after I got sober and found out that I had not filed my taxes. So I paid them with penalties and interest. and that During that period of time, I'd bought a gun And I checked the box to say that I was not currently an addict. And at the time, this is honest. And when I walked into that store, I didn't think I was an addict. I was at least three days clean Well yeah, you're not going to say you're an act. don't if you bought it fucked up You're just not doing it. Here's the thing everyvery single person today in the United States of America based upon the law that I was prosecuted for If you have ever smoked pot O you smoke pot even remotely on a regular basis, which means more than once a month basically And you own a gun You're in violation of that same law Wh means about eighty five million Americans are pregnant, but they prosecuted me for it. We can't find a single other case Whoe is me. Ohh no, I, you know, being held to a higher standard. like Well, let me ask you this though. this would be like if I sponsored you, right? Yeah, So I don't, and I don'taim to have any more knowledge than you do, But let's just save for one second. We'll role playing. We'll see how the question goes I ask you to be my sponsor Do you foresee a future where you could actually let all that go Yeah, I've let it all go. You think you have? No, one hundred. I get it. If I had been accused of a lot of stuff I didn't do, it would be nearly impossible for me not to defend myself. So here's the thing That is a completely fair question. And I hope This is as honest an answer I think it is which is I have let it go Other people have not let it go And so, for instance, onlyn time I spend a lot of time thinking about it is when I come and I sit down becausecause you're nervous it's gonna spark up the holes. No, is because I'm answering the question. And so when I leave here I'm able to put it down. And I guess when you say let it go, am I angry I think that the most dangerous emotion Did any addict can have is uncontrolled anger. Let me comment it from a different Wh? God damn it Is it possible? Is it possible? I'm never angry that the most evolved version of yourself, the most peaceful, the most serene version of yourself might Come around to having gratitude As crazy as that sounds? No Giuliani, although you didn't do all those things If you're dead sober, none of those things happen hundred percent. So I'm not victim shaming, but we also agree like, had it been even a little lighter on you? Maybe you're dead. Well really sun Maybe another addict.ready He's not gonna let you off the hook. Maybe you don't have a wife, mayaybe you don't have a new son So maybe all those guys, almost everything. Everything greatreatest lesson I learned in this C r is exactly that Is it? when they tell you to make your gratitude list I always thought and it is appropriate thing And he doesn't have to be an addict Get up in the morning and benefit from making a gratitude list which is like every day in Southern California, seven out of ten, you're like, I'm grateful for the weather. Yeah you know. I'm grateful for my wife. I'm grateful for my son and the relationship that I've rebuilt with my daughters and for painting and the coffee that that tasted so good and like all the good things that are going on. That's well and good but it really is is being grateful for everyvery awful thing that ever happened to you that bght you to right there Have you ever read the Gnostic Gspels that they found in Nj harmony? I'm not a scripture guy, but there's a great thing. I listen to audio book of a famous book called the Gnostic Gospel. He says basically I'm paraphrasing is Learn to suffer as I do. and you will be able not to suffer And it was like, yeah, that's it Be grateful All of that suffering because there is no way that you are here Sitting in this chair Right now Without all that? Without all of that. I would have never ended up here. in Southern California. I would have never met Melissa. I would have never had Beu. I would never have the depth of my relationship with people that I love now and particularly the depth of the relationship that I have with my daughters now I would never have had the all to understand that this was for me a question of life or death Each one of them I was little bit perceptibly seelf perception able to get a little bit better about the gratitude in the moment They're going to really hit me was when The verdict came in. in Delaware So I decided not to testify because what they'd done is they'd put my family on the stand, they were if I testified that they were going to bring asount of witnesses and ask and like it was just awful. And the jury came back and when they pulled the jury, they were like, I hateated that we had to come to that because it's bullshit, but the law technically, we believe that he violated the law And I remember and everybody was like, o I looked around and there were literally the entire prosecutiones like a wedding. Prosecutions, peopleople sat on that side, My people sat on this side And I look back And I literally saw every single person, almost every single person that I cared about My mom and my sister, my uncle, my aunt, mouse, the guy that grew up with my dad, you know, Reverend Bullock and all of these people from the community that had known me. all of those people that I said that were my aunts and uncles. Yeah, they were still there for me. All the people that I thought that I had lost that I was ashamed because I had been the embarrassment all standing there. Proving to you despite what you're telling yourself that you're worthy of love and the closets' open and here's all the sketons convicted. And yet you're still here. I didn't even think you'd be here if I was perfect and yet you're here and I'm at my worst. Yeah. That's powerful. Really, really powerful There's some players in this that don't have much social redeeming value, but they gave me an incredible gift gave me gift to being able to be honest with myself. If they never released any of this stuff I wouldn't have admitted it to anybody. I'm not sitting here talking to you out of some insane courage that I got because I went to Rishikash for five years and meditated. I'm sitting here because you know what? . what you had to do. Yeah yeah, ye yeah. Yeah, that is a gift. There's nothing to lose. Huge gift. You named one of your companies Seneca, yeah. Yeah. So you're into the Stoics or Yeah. there's a stoic road forward. Exactly. Those people, you're powerless over them I mean, you are as powerless over those people. one hundred percent as you are over crack If none of your fucking business, I would have an impossible time. Executing what I'm suggesting. Let me own that. No you would No I have a thing where would I had listen, I had violent stepdads and I decided when I'm eighteen, no one will ever get one over on me. There will be no me being subjugated. So I have a overly activated sense of like, you're fucking with me, I will go to the I'll d. I'll die over it. I know this would be like the hardest challenge for me, but also it's not happening to me. so I can kind of see from the outside that any piece of your heart taken by those people is a wasted piece. I think potentially you actually could get there if it was just you But his family is a. Oh yeah, forget. And that's you would Kill everyone. Yeah ye. So I understand you can look at it and tell him that. I'm owning that it would be nearly impossible for me, but I also know that's the truth. If your mom was getting dragged you kill everybody.ry kill every. Yeah, yeah, yeah, ye P peopleople are talking shit about her. No no, no,. And people have all these opinions about her that are wrong, you'd go nuts. I would. And so I have to give you some credit. He can be your sponsor, but I could be like your friend. I give you credit. It isn't out of any, and I really mean this I'm not just being like humble It was not out of any courage on my part was so Ubiquitous I didn't have any other choice unless I wanted to die. That's what I'm trying to point out. But some people die. Some people do. Oh, I'm proud. Number one, I'm most proud of anything. I'm proud of my sobriety over the last seven years in the heat of all of that. one hundred percent. I have an enormous amount of pride Iven't remember sound of tried that I've gotten to where I am I really mean it. It's more than just like a few peopleeople saying bad things about you or your dad or your kids, it was at one point It felt like because it kind of was like half the world. Yeah. sure. And the machinery of the government. Exactly I mean the machinery of government, which no one can unless they've been subject to it. It is aggering. I mean, like people say, well, you know what? you got a pardon and you've never faced any consequences P probation officers coming into my bedroom and my wife is still in the bath naked because they could over the course of a three year period of time. Well I would even say they've got it wrong, which is I would sit in a jail for six months in a heartbeat over deal with the emotional damage I causeed. You didn't get out of the consequences of your behavior hugging you at the end of his driveway, crying, saying to you, I just don't know what to do. Yeah. That's exactly I would sit in jail before I'd have my dad say that to me. I know. God. Like that's not even the harshest Exactly Punishment. Yeah. you don't really getet out of any of that. And here's the other thing Melissa still ready to kneecap a lot of people. I go, honey, you can't see get Is it from somebody. Like you got to you know what I? And you then really become to realize is that when it's all directed to you, it's so much so much more overwhelming and hurtful to the people that truly love you. L love you. kids. Yeah.. And that's what nobody understood with my dad too. No my dad and I Literally almost every day He's like, Coneyie, I'm so sorry. I'm like, Dad, what are you sorry about Jesus. You know, like. Well, yeah, it's going both directions. He's thinking if I weren't running this wouldn't have happened, you wouldn't have been a tool. Yeah, it's all sadness. That's my last question for you And again, in the most ap political way possible, I can't even really imagine what it was like to be by your dad's side and watching him in public Coming up short, how protective you must have felt during that time, how stressful that must have been, what was the experience of Watching your dad not at his best have to be at the height of the struggle. the first thing that you do is you get incredibly defensive, but you're right What happened culminating in an incredibly obbvious instance of the debate in which my dad didn't rise to the challenge. That's just objectively true. Is it Dad did lose a step He didn't lose his marbles Not one single person on the record in this entire time ever said that Joe Biden was not available present capable executing on every single decision that this administration had to execute on. Not one. Now, did he trip over a sandbag and fall and look like an eighty three year old trying to get up at the Air Force Academy speech, did he Freeze on the debate stage and look like he was eighty three years old, one hundred percent. Did he lose a step literally where his gait got shorter? one hundred percent? All of those things are true, which by the way, it's a wholen discussion about how we are as a society to start to treat and deal with people as they physically become more infirm, but still are all mentally there. Is everybody that's eighty three years old that shuffles a little bit have dementia? I don't think that that's true. By the way, and I don't hold any animosity, and that's not a hard question for me. But I'm more interested in the emotional, again, the powerlessness and somebody who just endlessly had your back The most beautiful way, you have such an enviable father, I mean, truly, from everything I've read about you guys. Thatally true. What a beautiful father. It would kill me to have America talking about my dad. Again, not because I've figured out some meditative process by virtue of who I am, you better figure out how to be able to stay in this country when no matter what president you are, at any given point in time, anywhere between forty and sixty percent of the public thinks you're akin to the devil It is like a constant barometer of favorability, unfavorability. He's the worst president. He's the best president. He's the greatest person. He's a demented. clone that did all of these things All I have to say is that My dad has his record He will have his legacy I think that he was unique as a president in the United States in that I think that the job by definition requires a level of narcissism Almost any other job in the world does not require and that he came to that office without that narcissism. I think that he had more empathy and compassion for normal people because He was the most normal person to ever occupy the office. You know, my favorite moment of his, I know you've seen this. They did an incredible two hour frontline on Putin. And there's a moment where they're sitting across the table from one another.' before he's president. I think he's vice president at the time. And he looks directly at Putin and says, I think you're soulless, basically. I'm paraphrasing And then Putin says, this is the first guy who's ever He like liked him. Exactly. He respected him properly George Bush had gone and said he goes, you know, I looked into his eyes and he saw his soul. until my dad's sitting across from Putin. and he looks into his eyes. He goes, I look into your eyes and I don't think you have a soul. There he Yeah And Putin likes it. Whether he liked it or whether he's smart enough to have pretended to like it in the moment because he thought it was tough. I mean, there's a wholenother cat. But he's the only dude we've had thus far Whos looked Putin in the eye and said, you're soullless. Yeah He has a lot of integrity. Everyone's had an opportunity and he's literally the one human being on our side who did that. And that's what I mean about my dad. I love McCain for the single moment And that's why they were best friends. On the presidential campaign when his supporter calls Obama a Muslim and he goes, Well, hold on, hold on. That's not true. These little moments of integrity Well even worse.' like the idea that that was a deal breaker. But regardless, my God, in a four year period of time, coming out of a pandemic My dad created more jobs than any other president with two terms by double in the history of the United States child poverty in half. He passed more legislation than any president since Lyndon Bain Johnson. He had a better midterm, even though we lost the House any president's FDR in nineteen thirty two He expanded NATO. he stood up to Putin. He added two countries for the first time in NATO's history to NATO, Finland and Sweden He reestablished our connection in alliance with the Pacific Rim countountries and Japan and Australia. I mean, I could go on and on and all of those things are lost in the mix of the insanity of what's now, the chaos, the fire of falsehood and insanity. a UFC fight on the lawn of the White House and we're painting reflecting pull bllue. and he made three thousand seven hundred stock trades in the month of February L the first president in the history thats made one, let alone three thousand seven hundred. And we're building a tower in Abu Dhabi and we're putting Trump tower in Saudi Arabia and're Gaza into a golf court. I mean, it's just like you got to stop. You can't take it all in If we get back, which I pray to God we do because I love this country and I'm not just saying that like Rab Ra, I love this country. I'm fully aware of what this country is capable of and the horrible things that it has done in the name of our democracy. I am fully aware of my history But at the same time, I truly still do believe that we are greatest single hope for I'd like to put it, it's a Star Trek future and not a Star Wars future I don't know of any president that just as a human being G a man is my dad I love that Well, look, I admire anyone who's gone to helelmback and shares it deeply. You and I will have a connection that's deeper than all these extraneous other things that are spectacular because we know what it's like to be completely humumbled and destroyed by something that's unique Right. I think it's a kind of a bonding. one hundred percent. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. like you could have any political leaning. you I feel bonded to you too. What he's talking about? I feel much deeper connection I love that. No, it's really helpful. what you much more gently. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. My hope is I've had this experience a bunch of times in the meetings I go to are often People arrive in their big headlines kind of arrive. People who need a lot of privacy come to some of the meetings I go to. And I've had a couple of moments where the people that walked in, I hated publicly. one dude was like, all this anti gay legislation then got caught in the bathroom. I was like, this fucking hypocrite. You know, I just hated them. And this person started sharing, I was like person was completely devastated and destroyed by this thing. and they know the depths of hell. and I have compassion for this person What a unique experience to have on earth. If not for this condition I have, I wouldn't have had that. So again, I'm so grateful that I could value something about somebody. their honesty can comeut through all the shit and I love it. It's so fucking powerful. It's almost my object It's incredible. They, u contontrol do the next right thing. and show compassion pass it down And that's what I learned from it And I often fail at the self control, but I don't fail in the way that I used to. And I sometimes don't have the compassion for the people that I mind so offensive but can't and I don't always do the right thing. I know at least that's what I think about every day. Well, this has been a delight meeting you. I hope you had fun. This has been great. Great time. I watch you guys all the time for so long. when you guys said that you'd like to have me on, I was like, all right. Oh good. I love what you guys do. And if you want to hear the very harrowing tale of all this, I encourage everyone to pick up beautiful things, your memoir this whole Life of yours, which is worthy of a book. nothing else. Thanks. So great meaneting and thanks so much for appreciation Isn' that our care expert, but he makes mistakes all the time. Thank God Maka's here. He gotta let him have the facts We're both wearing vintage shirt. I wish lookooks like it. I would have to call mine unfortunately a retro. I mean, it's from an old old pink Foyid thing, but it is a new shirt. Okay This is really honest. The eighties? Well, that's what I'm told. See, it could be a lie. How would one know? I wouldn't Well, the sweatshirt is definitely old I can tell by like the tag and the stuff, but they could have clopped that right on. But yeah, they can fake Rembrandts and stuff and have real experts sign off on them. Exactly I bet they could get up. They could get one over on me be sure Yeah, sure I'm not that good. We're recovering, I guess you want to talk about? I mean yeah, we were just recording. Yeah Armchair anonymous. Yes. And not only we're recording armchair anonymous, it's a prompt that Bllicit some Emotions For sure. So the person we were speaking to was at the apex of their emotional journey of the story. I felt very, very inclined to be present for that. Yeah And I hear Rob's door open. Yeah. My first thought is like, why is Rob thinking it' time to go outside? I thought he was getting the food. Oh, okay, that's good. I know better than all those things. What I know better than any. Exactly. I know you know better. So I'm just like, this is a strange move. Right. And it was a little it wasn't wasn't like If Rob was going to get the food, he would have done that quiet. It was loud. Yeah And then I went to, o man, I got to get my kids understand. They cannot interrupt me at work. And then it was Kristen. Yeah. And immediately when I saw her face, she was crying. Yeah, she was like very panicked. Panicked and crying Yeah And now I literally have my real life wife panicking and crying. And then we have a guest who, of course, I care about, who's also crying And I'm like, Ohh my Godd, I'm gonna have to fucking tell this lady, I gott to go But I had to go. Yeah. but I mean, we didn't end the call, but I had to get up Yeah It was fine because I was chating here Come come, you gott to go right now, you gott to put this bird out of its misery. I'm like. What happened? So backstory, and I think I've been reporting on this We've been having the sweetest twow or three months Affair with these crows that have really come and taken to walking around our yard. Yeah, they walk around. And we've named one of them. Yeah, it was maybe And we've been feeding, putting out food and they've been taking it. I was just last night, I was in the sauna and because the screen was down, I can see out of it, but obviously the crows, they were just directly in front of the sauna for twenty minutes. I watched them just like interact and I'm like, I just I feel so lucky that there are these beautiful crows in the back here are my favorite animal. Yeah. And I'm just watching them. They're getting more and more comfortable I go outside and what has happened is a friend's dog attacked one of the crows reallyally bad. All the other crows are in a tree directly above the fallen crow. And Mary yelling worse as they should. Yeah. I'm so bummed for them. C course you're bum for you. And my family is all everyone Lincoln's baling. She watched the whole thing. And then I got to find something. Yeah. You didn't use your hands. We'll just say that. I did not use. I mean, I'm glad. It was terrible. I hated it. It was terrible. there's the little crow I've been watching who I like And then I know that that's his mom up in the tree and his sibling Yeah.. I think the mom obviously feels guilty And then I'm like, okay, that's done, I get the crow wrapped up. And then I got to quickly try to nurture my family to check in as everyone' stable. And then come back here and then drop back in back end that Yeah Yeah. A least it was a kind of dark story we were hearing. It wasn't like you had to just like be happy again. I'm so sorry. I gott to go blow out birthday candles. Right, exactly. It wasn't frivolous. Although we didn't tell her what the emergency was. No, we didn't. No, I'm saying, I'm saying Sorry, I'm saying this armchair anonymous story was pretty dark. So my dark energy. It wasn't like you had to come in and put on this like very happy laughy funny Yeah. you pooped where Exactly. This is the one okay, it's silver liny. The one time you didn't want an unauthorized EVa. Yeah, yeah. So An Yeah. That was terrible. Terrible terrible event. I'm really sorry. I'm really sorry. I feel like that was the universe making me pay for the pigeons somehow. How are you already paid for that. That was a long time. It was a long time ago. Yeah of course. Hopefully atoned for that. I think, well, I'm really sorry that All that happened. I'm very sorry you had to be the one to handle it. I get very anxious in those situations. Yeah, where was where everyone's foods. likeike everyone's my head, I'm just like, o my Everyone's. so sad and so destroyed and like arent they're not going to come back for this for a couple of fromr this You know how I feel about emotion. So yeah, But I don't mean you. I'm like, o no, like This isn't good. like he's killed He's murdered today. My favorite He murdered his. Oh my Godd and also like murder of crows, you know, there's something in there. Okay I save the word of play for another let's just hold off on the work We're in play for today Wh was just right there. so you know I just went back inside check. This is what you guys get for calling yourselves a murder Oh no no, sorry. I'm sorry you. sorry. Oh it was a very cheap shot So I went inside and now People are going up to the store to get U materials for a grave. Oh, that's good. Yeah, I guess that's That's nice. Yeah. No one knows what to do. you don't know what to do. No one knows what to do, but I u yeah, I was like, I don't think I should. We had ordered food, the food I thought Rob was running out desesperate to get. Yeah. And so and we had finished our arm turn on us, we had a little break before the next one. And so I was like, I'm going to go the long way to go get the food. You didn't want to deal. I don't want to cry. It wasn't dealing. I was like They might be like How insensitive is she to go get her food? Areing anyone hungry I got extra chips. I don't think I'm gonna eat this third one Mbe that is something I would do in a nice way. like I help with the things I have? Anone starving right now Anyone feeling really hungry? or is anyone distracted by other emotions? Or should I just eat crow I'm sorry, they're everywhere. Sorry. Yeah, it's too soon. Okay, I really It's a littles just a bit too sry. But this is how this is how it is being friends with you. This is how it is being friends with you. I'd bet. Okay, so maybe I am now getting but I don't want you to have I don't want you to have repercussions. Okay. so I take it back, okay Anyho, I still feel like like fight or flighty. Yeah, yeah yeah. From that experience of running in and running out and I was like, thank God. obbviously of course when Christin runs in, I think it's something with the children. Same. So there is a level of relief. Yeah but it's very partial. I know. But yeah, but I heard something about Burt Crow and I thought she said Lola, another dog. So I was like, oh, I'm like Butynamic of everything. We have the dynamic of that it's someone else's dog. I know. So all of their stress. I know I felt brought their dog over and they killed our favorite members of our family I mean sincerely. No. They shouldn't feel bad. No I knew your favorite members of our animal f animal. Yeah, yeah, ye. It. For me. For you, yeah. but if the dog killed Frank You might be happy, but that would be like Really? Yeah, it feels weird to speculate, but I I Definitely think whiskey would have been a push for the family. No. Yeah. I think they'd be out there right now just laughing and doing work If whiskey was dead right now? No. I really don't. You're probably right. But it's okay. Y favorite member. Y your favorite animal members for sure. Yeah Yeah in the beginning of something that was quite fun that beautiful happening. I they're not coming back. There's no way. Crows have incredibly good memories. So the other thing this is and this is where it's probably selfish of me I'm like, this dog did this, but these crows are watching me right now. They're staring and they're gonna watch me do that. Why is that selfish? They're gonna remember they remember there's all these incances where crows remember for like thirty years. No, I'm saying, that's not selfish of you. I've been trying to be friends with these guys so hard and now they're gonna to hate me for sure. Well did you tell them No, I don't know that they understand English. Well they're smart. They could. Yeah. Also by the way, they saw what happened. so they know it wasn't you. I hope, but maybe they thought I was going over to resuscitate this crow I think they knew it couldn't be resuscitated or they would have come down and grabbed it. I'm glad that wasn't happening That would have been kingal if they're trying to like better better if they like go down and grab it, bring it back up to their area. they were they coned at that and then I would have been having to shoe them away So that you can't have this thing suffering in the yard. That's off the table Yeah Yeah. Real life will find you Yeah. you know, you we've we've created this little cocoon that we like virtually nothing can happen right? We're just sitting here talking We gonna to fight, but whatever, we'll get through that. And then life just, you know, find you. Yeah. Yeah. But I feel bad because like, because you're so tough And you had to be the one to do it and it's like, oh yeah, hell' like he's like that's why we have him is basically. Yeah. We deal with everything for this moment, you better do the thing Yeah that you bring to the table. But I do think I want them to know that It hurt your feelings pretty bad I think they know. You don't think so. I think it's my job to tell them, remind them You know, that was really hard on Dax. okay? Oh yeay, you're gonna be a j Sometimes I come in. Wow, That's nice. Yeah.. I did feel it was hard on you. Yeah. I didn't like that. Well, thank you Anyh.ee and and then I tried to make jokes like you do to make it better. It didn't work. I guess. Oh yeah. it was very soon Yeah. And puns already? I just you know, on good day puns are questionable. I know, but they were both pretty good. Okay, I'm probably not in a good Yeah. L J in a judge. Maybe later. In a few years, I'll hear this Well, you know what? that was a really good joke Oh no. Well, that was a lot. I'm really sorry that happened. Shake it off, what's up? Summer's here, kids are getting out of school. You gonna go to a graduation tomorrow. Oh yeah, we are going to a little baby's graduation. You what's so funny. Pase be sad. So the fifth grade dance was Friday night Oh which want to go with her girlfriends? Remember? I think I might not told the whole story yes. yeah, yeah. U That was Friday night and what was rad was This just makes me so happy. Um she said, can we drive the Lincoln? Like she wanted to show up at the dance. L rad. And we delivered. bring her friends or you just you dropped her off. Mom and Delta and I.h. And you're on a big grass field where everyone parks And yeah, we pulled up in the Lincoln. it's already low, but in the grass, it's just like Right? And all boys ran up to the fence. they're asking what kind of car that is. So that was Primo. She's in a dress. Oh Yeah, it was great. Did she do her hair and stuff? Oh of course she had ring lid. Yeah, she looked incredible. What's interesting is when Lincoln and ent her fifth grade dance because it is the end of elementary. It's the last thing they're really gonna do together So when I picked up Lincoln, The entire class well, all the girls They were ball Oh y. They were hugging each other. It was so sweet. And then maybe people will remember the overall demeanor of Lincoln's class versus Delta has been night and day. As you know, like they were Delta's class is so naughty they had to rearrange the recess structure because they couldn't be trusted around the pre K kids or whatever. This is naughty class Aughty group, cops comeing, No, those were for her classmates last year Oh right. So roll back up to pick her up and they're still raging and Dell just like, I danced the whole three hours. And I'm like, yes, that was ' I you know I loved to school dance. my favorite memories of junior high are those dances. So she did it. She danced so hard. So anyway there was a photographer that would do these like three hundred sixty shots of. Yeah, so she would get in a group with her friends then camera goes around them And this is embarrassing to admit, but I'm looking at this The first all I see, of course, because I'm the dad It's like, oh, she's the cutest girl that was ever born. Yeah. know, when I'm looking at her and all of her friends, I'm like, o, she's the cutest one. Yeah. But then all of a sudden I go Well, she's really quite short Oh Re? I'm gonna show you the video and see if you have the same reaction. I was like D't. Think of her as short and she's such like a little leader in her class and everything Um But I just had this moment I was like, oh, she really has had the Kristen experience where Kristen was like t tiny person. Yeah Me too. Yeah, you know And I just didn't really realize Delta that' realize that either or that she was necessarily, let's see Oh wow. Oh A she a headedgehort and all of her friends? No Cute, It's crazy. There's another shorty Yeah, there's one other shorty. But their name. But Delta is ye. I was like, o, she's the little girl in class. Even shorter than the Indian girl I don't know if I'm allowed say Yeah. I think she's Lebanese, but no. Okay, so she's a tiny. She's a tiny. No, I didn't know either. Yeah, it was really it was like I I finally came out of the water and saw clearly for the first time And then I said to her, I said, you know, I just I noticed from these photos. You're a shorty aren't you? And she goes, Oh yeah dad, I'm like the shortest girl in class other than so and so Oh, wow. Wow Yeah, I mean once so she's just like, yeah, I'm the short girl. Like once you are the short girl, you just are her, you know, like you don't even think about it. Yeah. and It does a little bit explain like you know, she's in such a hurry to lose her teeth. you know, there's like an ongoing thing And then she got her x ray that said they were still not coming out for a while. she was like devastated in the And I never really am like, why are you in a hurry to lose your teeth? But I think if you're the tiny one, she's like, let's get the fucking show on the road. Let' get rid of these teeth. Let's give me some puberty. Let's a few inches. Yeah. I might be informed by the height. It might be What's great is I've never heard her complain about it. That's why it was not even on my radar. Like her best friend who I thought was really tall. Right I now think it' probably out. Yeah, yeah Whoa, that is weird. Yeah I was like, Oh, she's really tall because one of her other friends is also not that tall, a little taller than her may but like Yeah, interesting.. Yeah, I mean, I didn't um I mean, I wanted it to look completely different, but the short thing never bothered me. Yeah. I don't know why for whatever. I had so many other things that were higher is a lot easier for the For a girl to be the little girl in the cl than the big bird. Yeah. Yeah, of course. That's a much harder row to he. Of course. Yeah. Well, maybe she should be a cheerleader. She could be a flyer.. you know, short short people have a lot of advantages in that way They don't have chair where she Well I don't know that for sure, but I don't think they have chair where she's going because it's an all girls school I know. They should do compet Femin they should so do competition, cheerleaders. Femin. No because competition has nothing Okay it's not trering for the boys. No, it's not. I knew feminism was going to ruin this country and here it is. C Stay tuned for more armchair experts If you dare We get support from zip Recruiter go get recruit in I'm constantly looking for ways to call back time in my day. I've got the meal prep dial, the grocery delivery locked in, the whole morning routine down to a science. We all have our own time saving hacks for everyday life, but if you're a business owner, how can you save time hiring? Zip Recruiter. They have a new feature that quickly shows you the most interested, qualified candidates first So you're not buried in a pile of applications from people who aren't even the right fit. Their matching technology is seriously powerful, and candidates can actually explain in their own words why they're interested in your job. That context up frront saves so much back and forth. There's a reason they're the number one rated hiring site on G two. Save time and meet great candidates sooner W Zip Recruiter. Four out of five employers who post on Zip Recruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free at ziprecruiter. com slash staxs. That's Ziprecruiter d. com slash stax. Meet your match on Zip Recruiter. Well I do some facts on Hunter Biden? Sure. Okay. Let's do a few facts. Yeah, I found this to be Wow. yeah, this was this was a good one. It was, it was. Again. Do you have feelings about him before M. I didn't know much about him. Same. I really just knew his name and I knew of all the crazy allegations I knew about the computer And I hadn't seen his face until that interview I watched, which made me interested in him. Right Yeah, I mean, yeah, I knew the same thing everybody else knew very but very surface even I didn't even really know he had such a legitimate career before all the dust upuff. you know, I didn't know he's a lawyer and he'd gone to the great schools and all that shit. Well, and then obviously the what we talked about the debate where Joe Biden is where Trump references him and then Joe Biden is defending him and it's like very I remember that moment. Yeah. upsetting that he has to defend his son. Yeah. Yeahah. And he's like, he's working so hard. heartbreaking, honestly. I also I don want to suggest that there's these are arable levels of culability, they're not. Bye It felt like he was making fun of him that his son had cancer. I mean, that's what it felt like. Like your kid has this life threatening. Yeah, exactly. Illness and I'm gonna Shame me over. It was just like fuck There's no. And then he really got himself into crazy because he said it and then Biden was like He said something about him dying. and he was like, no, your other son. And he's like, yeah, he's working really And it was like, Yeah, you're making him talk about like the absolute worst Things a parent could possibly imagine orrible But I also like I don't think I knew the extent of the tragedy they had all dealt with. I didn't either. I kind of knew right. I knew that Joe Biden had a real big tragedy and I think I knew he lost his first wife, right? Like I didn't know the extent of that. I know he sworn into the Senate in the hospital Oh, there's twenty nine, all this stuff, like you imagine. dealing with that at twenty nine. Baby. I mean, no. No No. Like absolutely not It makes me it makes me have so much respect for him honestly I've told three or four different people post interview I'll go like, do you know the whole story? and no one does. Yeah that I've talked to you. Yeah. And the two different times that kids were present What do you think their followout question was When you said like the station wagon? Did the dog die And I'm like, I didn't as. Wow. But it goes to show, you know this rule in movies you cannot kill a dog in a movie Rins are crazy. They are. I think it's because The innocence Almost the opposite.'s like we know humans come in every shade of good and bad. And so like there's bad people. you know, you can imagine easily someone dying that wouldn't bother you at all. Like if Putin gets shot tomorrow, I won't care. In fact, I'll be happy. Right. There's no dog I'm gonna be happy that was killedless eight people, I guess. but Oh shit, this just came full circle Like I wouldn't be happy if the dog that killed the crow got No, because I don't think the dog's capable of malice. R. Right, right. Anyways. There's something intrinsically more innocent about these animalsers of course Yeah, but it is a funny prior sliding scale of priority And I obviously as a bad person. like don't get it. I mean, I get it. I do get it intellectually in that way. like, oh yeah, there's an innocence, there's a. but I don't feel that ever So I don't I of course my question is like, children like I would never think about the animal. Right, right, right, right It's really telling and interesting and fascinating that we Because we're social primates, like we're built to think some people deserve certain things and punishment is built into the system and like I know It's just interesting how we view each other versus how we view almost everything else. But again, I think there's anomalies. I don't know that I don't know, I mean, obviously you can speak for yourself. but I don't think you really believe that people should be punished And I think I believe it less and less and less. Right