Dating Etiquette And Sharing Personal Stories

Wlcome, welcome, welome to Norm chair E experpert. I'm Dan Shepardd. I'm jined Lily Padman. And today we have Leana Wafe. Oh I love Leana Wafe She's an actor, producer and a screenwriter. She created the Sy. She was on Master of None. We loved that show. Yes, Queen and Slim, booomerang, them This is the final season of the Sy. now streaming on Paramount plus. You know Lena, you're gonna to really fall in love with her. if you've never heard her chat. She's just as sweet and wonderful as it gets.s right. Yeah. Please enjoy Lena Waf This episode is brought to you by American Beverage. We've probably all had that moment where someone says something about an ingredient in your drink and you're like, shouldhould I be worried about that? And then you look it up and immediately end up in the wildest corners of the internet with completely contradicting information. All I want is clear transparent information. And I bet you do too And That's why American Beverage launched Good to Kn. It's a site where you can look up over one hundred and forty common beverage ingredients, what they are, how they're used, how they've been reviewed for safety, no spin or judgment. just facts. You can decide for yourself. visit good to Knowfacts. org for more information. We get support from Quintince. Have you been wearing the Quinslin shirts? Yeah. I've been wearing them a suspicious amount. Yeah, European linen ones, They're thirty four bucks, which is genuinely insane for how nice they are. It doesn't even make sense. Well here's the deal. They work directly with the factories, cut out all the middlemen, so you're paying for the actual quality and not some brand's marketing budget Everything's fifty percent to eighty percent less than comparable stuff. I love it because it's all very classic and traditional and I know I'm going to be able to keep it for a very long time and the quality' off the charts. That's true. The style is very consistent. Whatever you get there, you walk down the street, you're gonna look good. They have these lightweight cotton sweaters, which I love for when it cools down at night. It's a nice drape around your shoulders in the summer and then throw it out when it gets a little cool And it's not just clothes. They do home stuff, ding ding ding, travel stuff, everyday essentials. It's all the same model, quality without the markup. Make your summer wardrobe easier. Go to quince dot com slash dAax for free shipping on your order and three hundred sixty five day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's QuNce dot com slash daxs for free shipping and three hundred sixty five day returns Quins d. com slash AX He's in our chance. Is child Holy right? Whatly option? No, no. you are great. Were you offered enough options? 'cause look how many I have. That's notually am. That's not usually am. Okay, she brought her cream topub and she was like, I'm not fucking with that much dairy. Coffee. coffee. What about tea Sometimes. Is it caffeine in general you don't getet down with? I don't know if I need any kind of caffeine. He's already he's already laghed Caineineineine doesn't need it but he drinks it. I can't do it. yeah. I don't want to be dependent. It's fun. It's something to look forward to. Do you identify at all with the many, many things that come across your Instagram about ADHD? Beause for me, I'm like, oh, yeah. I don't have ADHD. It's interesting the person's why my wife. She says She's already on here. I to tell. I know I like to watch my podcast. I like I watch y all as well I'm watching a podcast, like watching on my phone, and I'm like watching a Kim Burns documentary at the same time. It's like I'm doing that.. And she's just like, how, how are you able to do this and follow what's happening here in this conversation and listen to this documentary? I don't know. It's the thing. My question is, do you think you are consuming both at like what percentage? That's a good question. Because you know, they've debunked the myth of multitasking, right? Like there's been enormous studies done whereere they measure the time spent and then they have proven that if you had just done one at a time and then the next, like this is already kind of known. Okay. But I'm not saying that's the case here. I'm just wondering what percentage you think you're Yeah. You know, the truth is, here's the thing. I will sometimes say, okay, put the phone down, let me focus on this. I think it's really about notot just attention span which we all have to work at expanding. We have to actively do that. But I think that it's also about giving something your undivided attention That could almost be your rating system. Like if you had a public platform or you rated things, it would be like what thing did you shut down all things for? So this season what showed, you were like, you know what? we're putting this over here. The thing that I'm like really locked in is half Man Half man, what one is that? That's the gentleman who did Baby Reindeer. Oh, this is sophomore effort. HBO which just came out. Just came out. There's two episodes up right now. I think both are pretty exquisite. Exquisite, nice wors. You know, Baby Reindeer locked us all in in a real way, but I think then I gotta tell them this was really great for be able to do that at the Gobes I stopped him and I said, you made me want to be a more vulnerable artist. Oh, that's a lovely compliment. No, when he goes into the whole thing about he's in that fucked up crazy zone of drugs and Fucking and that whole I was like, Oh wow, man, I'm so impressed. He's going here. Yeah. was like an addict. I was like, o, yes. And it's true. Yeah. Well we're all addicted to something. Our vices sometimes look different and some are more socially acceptable than others. You know, it's like cheating is a vice. being unfaithful, I think it could be a vice. We'd say that's low acceptance, right? Yeahah, we would agree. Correct. Universally reviled, universally practiced Estelle Astair Est Perell. Est Pererell, I I fucked up both sides. brought her all together. I made her a one name artist. You' like, look, let me be gl you here. Let me make you worldwide. I got you. But also it's like shopping is a vice. socially acceptable. Social media is a vice. Absolutely, but socially acceptable in a way. because the funny thing is people are on their phones, posting on social why you shouldn't be on social And folks are watching it like, ye, but I'm getting this message on the very thing you telling me to get off of. We had the CEO of Instagram off and he gave Live, live. Who's my guy with the glasses who always says to think about the updates and stuff. Wh's talking, That's guy Adam Moseri. Okay, ye And I love him. I like him a lot. And he's so thoughtful. Ver Like he's the dude, you should pray as running that thing. Yeah. And we have him on we have this great thoughtful thing. and I challenge him on every damn thing. Wow. And people are on the goddamn app tell me How could you platform him? You can't support this? And I'm like, You're on the app cannot have this position? Wow. Yeahes, of course, because they have to rationalize They're on there just to shut it down. I think in their mind. They're gonna take down the very thing that they're helping to keep ive Okay, so we'd love the new show, Mad Man, horsem.al.alf manan. It's too much coffee.' too much coffee. I just really li that show a lot in terms of how he's exploring masculinity and what relationships can look like between two men that don't necessarily have to be both of them have to be queer. But I think he also was exploring versions of that in Baby Rinder as well But I think he definitely is sort of an artist that's making television in a way that is forcing us to pay attention in a way that I don't know if we always do. The fact that this was something that was not proper America Netflix. This was Netflix that was like coming out of the UK. And as he said to me, he was like, I don't think Netflix thought it was going to be this huge hit. That speaks to disconnect between, I think, streamers and audiences And it's sort of like, what do audiences actually want? What do they need? This is the beauty though, there's downsides to the streamers. You have a show that's about to be on for eight seasons. If you had that on network TV in nineteen eighty, you'd buying a baseball team. I li through the whole thing. Okay. The one upside of it is, yeah, they're going to make baby reindeer. That in Netflix. No one there believes in it, but they're going to make it because they're going to make three hundred fifty shows this year. R. And then that does give the opportunity for all these things to pop Beef comes out of nowhere and all these shows come out of nowhere that no one was betting on in like a network way. And that deserves acknowledgement. Like it's taking a toll on a lot of aspects of this indust, but that one part is amazing. It's like they switched to niche and then niche became meega hits sometimes. No, that's true. And it's about like, what becomes meega hits? Why does it become a mega hit? I'm always fascinated by that. Are we creating stars anymore or just sort of depending the ones that already have the money to carry a show that might not be that great Well, stars also are becoming stars in a different way L not just because they're on TV or in movies or in music. I was looking at all the pictures from the M Gala this morning and I was like I know I'm like getting old. You like who are these people? But I don't know any of these people. Yeah, It's like being thirty watching a Billboard awwards. I know. I don't know anyone. me or is it that the stars are from TikTok from things that I'm not on, but they're not on my TV, I don't think. Right. I think the word star is sort of becoming interesting. The word celebrity, public figure What does that mean? Because you can become a celebrity in a week, but then your're hasusband that never was. Yeah.. It's so fleing. I know. you like lead rough out there. You've done good. You've maintained Back and forth. My his friend. I love him so much. Gordon Keith. He's on a popular Dallas sports radio show and he has been for like twenty five years. He was visiting last time we were talking about AI and everything and he said to Chris and Ies You know you guys might be among the last mortal stars. Mortal. Yeah. like the future stars will be AIs. Like you might be in history the last of the mortal stars. Oh Christ goes, Oh my God, that's so funny. the last one of the mortal stars. The final season and one of the strongest seasons of the comeback is telling us the future, which the comeback has always done. That's your first acting job too, right? That was technically. Yes. always starts to take credit from my first TV Actually Michael Patrick King, Lisa Kudro, they threw me in there one episode, very grateful to Allison Jones who discovered me. Yeah What did they predict this season That AI is gonna take over all of the shit. They've been such ahead of the game and the comeback is just sort of one of those great shows. I was honored to be asked by the New York Times about one of the one hundred most important television shows. It was a very tricky This is not a definitive list. They just came out with one hundred greatest songwriters ever and movies and all that kind of stuff. So I was honored to be at the table for the television one. and I was really happy to speak about the comeback because it was on when I was in college the first season and I could see that moment what they were doing with comedy, and that was so unique and so special. 'cause I was already like a Seon City, I was already a Friends fan, but to see these two brains come together and make this show about aging actress in Hollywood and what she had to do and the fact that they were ahead of the curve in terms of reality television in that first season. And then in the second season getting into the premium cable type thing and what that would ultimately be. And for the third and final season. I mean, the seasons are spread out between like a decade,, just so Brilliant.er season was so beloved. and when we talked about it that ten years later, AB was like, yeah, I do a second season. and now ten years later, they're doing the third and final. And it is this sort of trifecta of Hollywood and what happens to it. And I'm like, all about Eve. You know, it's sort of, Oh, this is what happens. There's a person that's there that we look at and we love and then she eventually gets put out to pasture and there's someone that comes in to replace. And it's cyclical. It's sort of telling you you can only be on the mountain top for so long because you can't breathe the air up there So you have to start climbing a new mountain or you'll die at the top of the w. You made it to. Everything's driven by young people This is also a reality. I'll talk to young people. I have a thirteen year old have friends. The people that they don't know break your heart. I mean, literally the people they don't know movies they haven't seen. The movies they like Stwhank redemption, I wouldn't even know, I wouldn't even take that swing. Okay I mean blazes and saddles?ike what are we doing? That one's probably a no goo for most young people. What are? What's the bridge? What's the bridge? It is up to the parents. The parents gott to get in there, likeike my mom made sure I like prints. Right. Although that's not a hard job It was I it was first when I was a young person. Really? In the car, couldn't hear it I'm in college in Chicago, he comes to the city. she makes me go. It's one the things I'm very grateful for. She's like, you got to come to the concert I't like, I don't hear it. I go. I'm like, baptized. I'm like, Oh, got it. and then I go and buy every record, which took me like a long time because he was just releasing music every week since he came out. I guess you're nine years younger than me. So that explains it a little bit. I couldn't end have not loved Prince. You know, I was probably in fifth grade when Purple Rign came out You were either into Michael Jackson or Prince. and to me, Prince was dangerous. I liked him. I was like, okay, that guy's dangerous. I'm into him. See, like Michael was like perfect for like, this is gonna sound so wrong, but he's perfect for like, if you're a kid. Yes, sorry. I know, I know. I know.ike you have life. You don't I talk about your my M Michael Jackson's perfect if you're a kid. You tell your proble says, good news and bad news. You did not talk about. If you're a kid. Michael Jackson. Oh, I know. is It is magic. I mean, there is a reason Dam. It is so complicated. He was half. He seems trapped in his. Robinson has this really great quote. He said Michael Jackson had to be a man when he was a kid. and when he became a man, he was a kid again. Yeah. Yeah. I co sign on all that When I don't co sign on in that that is somehow a justification for the behavior that Yeahah yeah I that he was justified. Yeah. I just like that was abstol. I we say that. Like I definitely do think that's right. I think his childhood was stolen from him and then he lived it out as an adult in Neverland rant. I mean literally creating let's that not take him off the hook. Yeah the ones take a big Digression. Perfect So I had never met you. I had seen you on Master of None. Yes. I liked you on Master of None. I loved the Thanksgiving episode. I remember I had no idea you were a writer. And in fact, not til much later, I thought maybe that was your first time writing Like I know your history. That was my fear, actually about doing the show. becauseuse I was like, o, these people think I'm an actor, who's trying to write, but actually I'm a writer that you want to act. Yes.. He's like, write, Yeahah, don't care. You already a staf writer on bones at that point, right? Yeah Yeahah, I did that because I did did other show I met you in real life. We were at this event. and I'll add, I'm so excited you're a two PM interview because that means Delta will be here when we get done.ice. So I was with Delta when we met, and something happened between you two I don't want to speak for you, but it there was an explosion of charisma and connection. Yeah. it. I think the first thing she said to you was I love your voice for something. Yeah And then I saw this side of you and she has that effect on people, Not that it took a lot, but I saw a side of you immediately that was like Oh, I love this person. Yeah. I gott to say of all the stop and chats I've had in my life. I ranked that very high and like, oh yeah, I really love this person. Wow. Yeah. It was a very memorable hour and a half hang. No, it was clear that you're raising kids that know who they are That was I think very interesting to be talking to a young kid who was almost like fully formed. She's probably nine then, yeah. Right. That's why it throws youed up. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. 'ause I'm going like, what? you know, to be a girl with a husky voice and have one with her life there was sort of this thing of like her having like almost her own sort of voice, her scratchy voice. Yes, Hers was real scratchy then too. Yeah. Yeah So sort of like. And the two girls with cool voices which chat. Yeah. We see each other. We see J see, I hear you. I hear them literally infiguratively. It wass a lovely meeting It was lovely. I really enjoyed learning about you today. Starts in Chicago, yeah. nineteen eighty four, may seventeenth. We're about to have a birthday. Yeah,'re right. I my Jackie Robinson year aboutout to be forty two. How do you feel about aging? You're very accomplished. That helps.. have an Emmy. I think I love it because, you know, it's interesting. Oprah did this really interesting episode back in a day These amazing women who kind of were known for being beauties in their dayday. L it was Dye and Carol, like Lauren, the modelle No, no, no, Luren Holl I'm forgetting, but she was like a model with like a gap tooth or whatever But She just had these women on there who were just really known for their beauty and she asked them what they feared the most. and they all said aging. Oprah was kind of taken aback by that because Oprah said, that's not a thing that scares me. And Oprah in that moment literally is having this light bulb moment in front of people. She's saying, Oh, I think it's because I'm not worried about a beauty type of thing fading Yeah That's not what her value propos was. That's not where my value was. Also black people age better. Well, this is true. This is true something of the deal. Yeah, absolutely. don't There's a few perks, but that's one of them. deal shit. But also a person interesting way that doesn't concern myself with the male gaze Yeah, ye, yeah, yeah, ye ye. And so there's this level of I don't need to look younger than I am. I don't need to appeal to a certain audience. I just want to get wiser and evolve and grow and learn and know something more today that I did yesterday. There's a lot of factors too. I would argue and correct me if I'm wrong The older black woman has a matriarchal position that's very cherished and valued. I know, you lived with grandma right? I right?. Grandma means a lot. Also knowing you're aging into a role of great relevance and purpose. versus a lot of the white ladies are just thrown off the pasture. Oh sure. Yeah Yeah. So I think there's a lot of different things in the mix. Yeah. I think to me, it's just whatever somebody says, I hate getting older, I always say, what's the alternative Yeah, exactly.et better than m Yeah. But it's funny that you bring up the male gaze part because we just had this crazy experience last week where we interviewed some of the listeners and we had this man on to tell a story. And I was like, oh my God, he's so hot. He graduated from the same college as me. And I was like, I graduated in two thousand nine. when did you graduate And he graduated in twenty twenty one I was like You had a moment?. My God. I had like a real I'm old. I'm, I guess a cougar. I hated it. And I don't ever walk around thinking that. I never walk around thinking I'm old. It was because I'm in front of this young hot guy. She's fifty three, by the way, I don't know if you know. She't say her age. Fast math, I'm thirty eight. We look great You're killing., you're crushing. I was pumped. I was like, oh good, we're in a phase where she finally like is into fucking a younger dude. Like let's get on with that. I mean, that's not where it went. No I so old and irrelevant. and I was like, oh wow, I normally never feel that way in life. I'm pretty confident. But then in juxtaposition to this young guys, when you say male gaze, there is something very real about that. Yeah, like I'm not really concerned about that. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like the door' open for me to tackle something that's so dangerous to tackle. It is funny that you say like, I'm not concerned with the male gaze. And I gotta say leading into meeting you I think the reason I was shocked we got along so instantly well, by my estimation, was like I'm nervous around lesbians because I'm so used to my value proposition being You might like me And so like for me to enter a situation where it's like, I know you're not gonna like me. Capital L like me. And I have to confront how much capital L like me means to me. That's real And how much of my own personal self esteem and value comes from Capital L like me. Do you like me? attract. And so I know, oh yeah, you're never gonna like me. I start there, which fucks me up a little bit. That's true. And then a lot of your art is deeply activist oriented. You have a lot of causes you care about. And then so my next insecurity goes like, she's gonna look me and I'm like, this dude doesn't give a fuck about anything. I go in with these two insecurities And then I start talking to you and I go, No, I think she likes me. my capital L like me but I can live with this. Is that enough? Is that your case e enough? Totally is. And I think everything can get so easily misread. I'm sure there's some lesbians are like, Oh, he don't like me becausecause he only likes people, he can fuck. And I'm doing the opposite thing and neither's trreue No, yeah. I can't say I've had a lot of lesbian friends. and I have to acknowledge it's got to be some part of my own insecurity or so I feel like, o, I'm invisible to this person or something.. Super interesting. couple things. Like I so scared say No, no, no. This is really great. First thing I want to touch on is the art being rooted in activism. and the truth is I don't think of myself. as a actist in a way. I think of myself as a human who studies human behavior and I try to like capture it for us to look at. I think because a lot of stuff I'm dealing with is ack folk, it can be sort of categorized as, okay, this is what this group of people is dealing with and going through, especially with a movie like Queen and Slim, or like them Coming, which I produed. I didn't write or direct on that, but that was a black person who I believe identifies queer, but He was trying to explore something there through that. and Queen and Slim, I was exploring something about our society and then you look at something like the shy, which is sort of exploring just sort of life, middle class, Chicagoans, but because if it's who are part of a marginalized community, it sometimes can be seen as, oh, this is a political thing because we don't have any choice for it to be anything other than that. But the interesting about Thgiving episode was like so many straight wh dudes come to me tell me how much they love it. I love. And that was a breakthrough for me because I used to think of it as the black episode of Master of None Oh, interesting This is be we call a black episode ofZase. Oh cool. Oh yeah ye. a gay black episode. Yeah. And I just thought it was for a gay blackol. a gay black fol love the thans giving episode. Sure. I think everyone loves the That's the thing. Yeah, yeah. That's the trick. Yeah. is that yes, it's specific, but it's also universal. So you know, I don't think you're preachy. I think you're telling the stories that are true to you. You're supposed to write what you know. Exactly. And you are in these two groups that inevitably are gonna to seem h political. Oh, absolutely. But for me as an artist The goal is to not separate myself from the things that make me who I am, but to get folks who don't look like me, love like me, come from the walk of life that I do to be able to look at the work and not only see it through a particular lens, to say, hey, you can see yourself in this character. It' the way I see myself in a lead character, Baby Reindeer. Well, I was going to say, even when you listed the shows that you like right now, of course those are the shows that you like. P peopleople might go, oh, I'm surprised that she's watching that show. Oh really? Yes. As a black woman, they like, A you not just watching power and girlfriend? You another Roa show, yeah. Yeahah. I had actually watched out who. I also love Bate, wantan to shout out Rism M on Amazon. you haven't se it check it out.'s beautiful show.' gonna be mad you a't say. it look the end of the. Eactly. Everyone's in trouble. How assuma you see Bate. Exactly. But I'm also like,. Okay what issues do you have Let's start with everyveryone's in trouble. I know. So go to the thing about like me and straight men, I feel like I have really great relationships with straight dudes. And a big part of that, I think is because sex is not on the table. So they don't feel this need to perform. Yeah. because nothing's coming from it. And I think that's why I also have very interesting relationship with straight women because that gets a little dicey because it's the level of, huh, you're kind of masked, but you're a woman. and I kind of like this energy. I'm kind of confused. It can get a little tricky. I'm going like, are we cool? A are you hitting me? You are, but I don't know what's going on. And so I just hear what you're saying in terms of Oh, but if you couldn't like me, then what's my end? What am I doing? What's my value to anybody who wouldn't like me? Right. And the truth is, is like there's so much value because that isn't all that you have to offer me. Yeah, I know it's stupid as I'm saying it, but it is the emotion I have. Right that I have to think through That's super interesting. I go like, oh, I've got nothing to offer for this person. they'. I going want to interact with me. And I gott to step over that. I think that's super fascinating to me because I think for me when I approach, I'm just, I'm curious what's the energy gonna be. I'm more curious about that because my brain isn't always There I more so want to know, well, who are you? What's the thing? The word I dislike the most is a oom Anytime someone says it, what follows it is sort of like, So what you're saying is you didn't ask, You didn't go to the source. You came up with a narrative for yourself about a person. And by the way There are people that have narratives about me that are completely based on nothing. I think I had created one. She won't like me. She'll think I don't care about anything. Why would she want to talk to me? I'm talking to her while, She seems to like me. She smileing. I think that's what a lot of our society is doing right now, which is why I think it looks the way it does. We assume things about each other rather than having that moment of like talking to each other and really hearing each other. Beause even like what you just say, I try to be an active listener. That's why I was like, I heard a couple things I say. I was like, okay, I want to address the activist thing. I was like that's really interesting to me. It's not combative, but it's sort of like, oh, huh, that's an interesting thing. I know that word's dicey. Like for me to even say active, I know that's a loaded word N. but to me, it's like, I get what you mean. It doesn't seem like an odd thing at all, what you said. But I think for me, it's helpful to hear and to kind of go, okay, I see how the work can be perceived that way. because I have no control over how people perceive the work. But I think for me as an artist, it's always about, okay, that's how it can be seen. Okay, cool. And how do I continue to make work that no one feels ostracized from it? Becauseuse some people may go, I don't want toal because that's active. don't I want to just kind of ch. I don't want to be taught a lesson. Exactly. And sometimes work, especially by women or women of color, or if you have you add queer to that mix There's this idea, this assumption that you're going to be talk going to be a lesson. There's going to be more is about to be woke versus just, oh, that was just kind of funny and human and grounded. It can be a burden because even if you're saying something or you're making a piece of art that a white woman made straight, people might not be like, it's an allegory or it's lesson or' trying to teach me. That's part of the thing. I mean sometimes we'll get in like But if I'm saying something, it's kind of like I'm speaking on behalf of. R. N not always. I'm just saying what I think. Right, But you have to always like identify that my point of view, I don't represent everybody. I know and then that's exhausting. It no else't do it. I know if you don't do that, then people are like,, so are you speaking for us?'re speaking it for me? It's just like, o, no I'm not I don't speaking for myself. That's part of the way people do interviews if you payentigion to it. they're like, I'm talking about me, know if it for this person. No of that. I don't wanna. I'm sorry, I'm burri in in aalthy marriage. sorry I'morry becausecause people at home are going like, Well, fuck you.'re just waiting for it I know. What? It's like, Jesus, what know, it got really out of control. No but I like you. I have to get to know. you have to meet you, met your k. I like you so much too. Yeah. It did it immediately. I didn't let any ofbody get in the way. It was just like passing thoughts and consumed your art. We're programed. So you were Zero to twelve south side of Chicago. Correct. And what was that like Mom and dad divorced at three? At two. Dad died suddenly when I was fourteen, but I only saw him from like util I was like seven. And then like seven years kind of went by. he was gone. Was he an addict? Well, you know, it's crazy because I wanted to get his death certificate because I didn't know anything about how he died and he was actually killed by someone, but it was sort of in self defense. so it wasn a situation like that. But the coronner did show that there was cocaine in his system. There is a history of addiction. My dad love cocaine And then I grew up to love it too. It smells so good. This is why my grandmother told me. She said the grandma's gonna say it's in your blood. so be mindful, be thoughtful a lot of us kind of got to. They told me that too. Oh shit. you didn't They told me let me just see what's up. I gotta find out for myself Oh they were right. Did you see the ChevyJ's duck? Yes. Jesus Christ. I would love your analysis I thought it was quite fascinating. I thought it was quite human. and I'm a person that's done a documentary about a person who no longer here being Marary Tyler Moore. That can be a little bit trickier. I'm to say there's more pressure, but her Wittower was kind enough to give us the life rise in the space to tell that story tooakes about five years, just going through a lot of intervs and things like that.bviously, writting the memoir when I was much younger and just obsessed with the Marary Tyler Moore show Dick Van Dyke and all that kind of stuff, but it's tough to kind of create a portrait of a person. And obviously that person is still here and he's being interviewed Yeah. And you know, I've heard the stories. I think a lot of us have and they're in the dock. Yeah, exactly. It's pretty unflinching on his many, many Absolutely. Outbursts and shittiness. I learned a lot of things that I didn't know, which I think is the point of a documentary. Childhood didn't sound great No, not at all. It's tricky because it's not about making excuses, but rather about giving you context for a person. It's an explanation, not an excuse. That's what I like to say. Those are different things. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. But I think the thing with Chevy that got me the most was the fiftieth SNL bit to watch that and to see him still be affected C't get out of his own way For people who haven't seen it. Well also don't want to o No, no, you're not going it out. But people know that there was a fiftieth anniversary special on SNL with like everybody that ever pretty much touched it and a lot of the people that were important to the show. By the way, Lauren Michaels is interviewed as well, which I thought was really important Chev talkks about not being in the show. Yeah. And even though he was very much part of the origin of the show. I mean, that's not disputed. But also he came back and hosted. it wasn't the best energy for I think either party when he came back to host. And sometimes your reputation, you leave a mark that can stick with people and who knows what happened? That's he doesn't know what happened. Lauren kind of is Lauren sort of sort of, I don't know, we try But also Martin Schart said something really interesting. He was like, Billy Crystal was there as well. He didn't speak either. So. So Martin Schwy definitely gave some context to the situation. But you know, what I appreciate is that Chevby Chase said, like I was hurt by it. He was hurt. He reaped what he swed. What I respect is vulnerability. Yeah. I respect the honesty. The toughest thing for people to do is just to say that hurt my feelings.utely. You know where my compassion came from where It'd be one thing if he was so happy and unaffected by The wreckage she seemed to be incapable of not creating, right? Like if he was sitting there high on his horse feeling great about it all and enjoying life and feeling good, he is a victim of it all. He's very uncomfortable. He's in such discomfort. It's very obvious.. And so I look at it and I go like, yeah, he was terrible to a lot of people and primarily himself. And I have compassion for that, that kind of self destructive, I can relate to it. And then also these crazy glimpses of him where he's still a fucking genius. L just him interacting with the dude with the flowers. And I shared so I'm lying back from the NBC upfront and they put me in a car with him. I've never met him. Oh my go. We're sitting in a car together and then we pull up to the hotel and there's six hundred people out in front of the hotel to see stars And when he gets out, everyone's so excited, right? And he's trying to walk through this crowd and go, Oh, yeah, so feeling much better now. Thank you for asking. And keeps moving and I was like, feeling much better now. Thank you for asking. It's one of the funniest things I've ever heard. And that's also part of him, right? But I think that it's sort of a portrait of a person Stay tuned for more arms If you dare, We are supported by All State Checking All state first could save you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking what the warning light means before pulling out of your driveway, you absolutely convince yourself it was probably just a sensor thing right up until you were standing on the side of the road waiting for a tow. Yeah, checking first is the right move. So check All state first for an auto quote. It could save you hundreds And for fast, reliable help when you need it, add an All state roadside plan today. You're in good hands with All state. Potential savings vary insurance and roadside assistance plans are subject to terms conditions and availability. Insurance provided by All state North America insurance company, Northbrook, Illinois, Roadside assistance plans provided by All State Motor Club, Incorporated an All state affiliate Let's talk about a condition many people haven't heard of, and it turns out it's more common than you'd think Ceron's Dease, or PD for short PD can happen when scar tissue builds up under the skin of the penis. This can cause a curve with a bump during an erection and for some men, lead to pain during intimacy and may impact mental health. It may also lead to anger and frustration, depression, lowered self esteem, and even withdrawal from sexual activity and physical intimacy Because of this, some men could feel embarrassed or reluctant to talk about PD. The actual cause of PD isn't always known. In some cases, it may be linked to a minor injury or repeated injuries during sex or other physical activity The good news is PD is treatable. If you notice a curve with a bump, a trusted urology specialist can help diagnose it and walk you through your options, including non surgical treatment. To learn more about Peroni's disease, visit talkaboutpd. com This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. We've talked before about Rob building our website on Squarespace, and I bring it up again because it's a perfect example of what they do well. Rob had all the pieces, the content, the vision, the ideas, but he needed something to actually take all that and make it public facing. in Squarespace was that bridge? Maybe you're in the same spot. You've been developing something, a business, a skill set, a body of work It's been private. It's been yours, but at some point you're ready to put it out there, and that transition from private to public can feel like a huge leap. Squarespace makes it feel like a step. Beautiful templates, built in SEO, email campaigns, scheduling, analytics, everything you need to go from. 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Make sure you enter our show name after checkout so they know we sent you Helixleep dot com slash armchair What I love about those documents adding my own to it, you know, with Mary Tyler Moore, is that she's the woman that could turn the world on with her smile, but she also was an alcoholic and dealt with a lot of death in her family. and her son as an accidental suicide. And he was in his twenties. and then she also did ordinary people before that and then experienced it in real life. She went through a ton But was sort of the Jackie Oo of television of her time. And so I think ultimately, when you're trying to paint a portrait of someone, there's a lot of colors you have to use and you have to really let people speak to their experiences of them. And the truth is everybody's right. Even though there's a moment in the doc where someone talks about how he was treated by them and he was an'artbre recall that. But this person's truth exists. The documentary allows Chevy's truth to exist as well Yeah, they're just wrecked. But that's the things like the Petey Herman dock, I thought was really phenomenal. because I grew up with that. I loved that dock. That dock I watched it multiple times. Yeah, that's a beautiful So stunning because I didn't realize What I was actually getting when I was watching that show. Me neither. He was speaking to the crazy, weird kid. Y. It was all misfit. Yeah. And I didn't even get that, but I felt very connected to. Yeah. I didn't know I was a misfit until I realized I was like, what is it about this language that he's speaking that I understand. Yeah. Sometimes you don't know what youre seeing until somebody points it out to you.. And so and I think that's the thing too, you get perspective. You kind to look back on a career and go,, and then you see the downfall and you go, I see, oh, this interest that kind of went. they tried to make it like he was a bad dude. It brereaks my heart. That's crazy. He was straight and fucking hookers, like he could have done anything straight, nothing would have happened. Oh yeah, that's the thing. Hello. Anyway, It's the thing about these people's lives and the impact they have on us that we don't even realize. And then you realize that this person has such an impact on you was a person? Oh yeah, everyveryone. Is's weird when you real like your parents are a person.?'re, Oh, that's weird. There's only one person I think might not be a person. but this one., Steven Sigel, I not. If gonna win know if I watch the doc I saw the writ, he'd be very comfortable. you're like, I don't going yes, but going yes, but going, yes, goinges. So I read that you wanted to be a TV writer at seven. and this feels impossible to me because when I watched TV at seven, it wouldn't have even occurred to me that it had started with writing. It's just like these people exist on this box. I think that might be real. I think the truth is I knew I liked writing as a kid I liked the assignment of having to summarize the book or tell about what you did the day before. And I remember my teacher really affirming me that young saying I look forward to reading your papers. We both know our teacher's name. Who was it? misses Tarbunis. Yeah, Larry Leclerc. Come on. Yeah. When they tell you you're a good writer, you're like, okay, I think what we say is so powerful. The power of the tongue is real Yeahes. And I just need to always any opportunity give any little kid that Yeah, because they' remember, it stays with them. Both ways. whether you told you're not good at something or you are good, like it just sticks. For sure. So no, I was really grateful to have that. But also obviously loveved watching television as a young person. I used to watch old TV because I had the grandma in the house. we was watching like all in fan of her shows. Oh, yeah, watch it. my gndma fan son Well, we lik the Jeffersons times, obbviously being a family of Chicago. I got to watch that old TV. That had a really big impact on me. A different world was really important to me, which is the spinoff of the Cosby showh. For the younger audience really sort of speaking to me, even though I was like didn't even know what college was. I had beef with that show. Okay, what's the beef? I'd say my first number one love of my life was Lisa Bonet. O course. You not alone. before get it And then she gave birth to herself. Come on,Zoe, Kravitz done. I got to dance with her one night for like two hours.. I just need to tell you. Chris and I write a thing. Of course. This is how every story starts. Chrisin goes, there's your girl This's why you're married to the best lady on the planet. She goes, there's your girl and she's dancing And you love to dance. So get over there. Okay. And I f and danceced. cloud was floating on a cloud. Anyways The spinoff was like she took us to the spinoff, right? Correct. then she got shoot after the first season. But that's the it's supposed to go. I lost my lead season three, you know, people knew about that, but there's something that happens when the universe takes someone away like that where we're like, we don't hang the hat on this person. Well let's remove that person. Now see what you do And what happened was a different world became the show was ultimately meant to become, which was supposed to be about Jasmine Guy and Kadem Hardison and Kreis Summer and Chhanneelle Brown and Daryryl Bell and Simbad and everyone that came in and touched the show. So that show was like everything. It was just everything. It's like you talk about you just want to live in the world? Did you want to be in that weren't all in college? That shows big reason why a lot of fks went historically B black colleg.'m my black ass living a different world the way I did. I ended going to Columbia Coege in Chicago. study writing producing and television. but I did go visit Fisk, which was HBCU as well. I wanted to stay in Chicago and I wanted to go learn how to write television. Is Columbia Chicago a part of university? A part of New York. They're completely different than. Completely different. I was trying to figure out I was research in you today. I was like, I'm raining all about University I went to college. That tells you like, you know, But she was an exc or is an exec and I'm a writer. so it m sense. I'm like, okay, like all this these different parts of your brain. But I went to Columbia and it was really the best thing. Could I ask really quick though, whoo are you in elementary? Who were you in high school? Who were you in junior high? Oh, who was I? Yeah in Chicago. And you moved to Evanson but tellell me the first twelve. Oh my God. Who wereary school? I was conduct grade was always low. C Foror it around? Just a busy body. talking too much My mom having to come up to the school. You said you're not ADHD, but this is sounding a teeny bit. I was a social butterfly way young. I was there to socialize. The grades were solid though. The reading and the writing and all that. I was killing it. You know, but I was talking too much. And then junior high, I was very much like a tomboy, but I hung out with all the pretty girls and stuff like that. I was in that crew I loved movies. That was a big part of my personal. P peopleopleew could ask me about anything. Can I ask how early you were fully aware of being? then when you started sharing that with friends? man, that's so interesting because I feel like I'm a person that believes it's sort of in from the beginning. It's about where you recognize it. But I mean, for a minute, you're just not even sexual. True. No, but the thing is when your kids, like yough you have crushes. That's true. You like other kids You like your teachers and shit. There's teachers you like. That was never one of my fanties though, ' my teachers were like my aunts and moms like they were like amazing. But they just were giving that. But it was really about I was looking at these actors and stuff coming up and the Janet Jacksons, I could recognize. I'm like, Janet it iss beautiful. 'use I was like, okay, what's happening over here? Howlly Bear is beautiful. I can recognize Witney Houston is beautiful. But but also considered my mother to beautiful. And so there was a level of like, oh, you're beautiful, She's beautiful. Okaykay, These women that I recognize it was a different thing. Did you a young mom? Are you the older sister or?ng youngest. And my mom was like in her thirties, like had us. feels like the usual age, you have kids And my sister's like almost two years older than me. And so it wass just the two of us. and I just gravitated toward the female energy. but then I was also a tomboy, like outside with the boys and stuff like that. And so I think For me, high school, I definitely felt very queer But the thing about tombys, girls don't really get teased the way boys who are feminine do. No, right? Because in a patriarchal society, it's not odd to be a girl that wants to a boy. It's odd to be a boy that wants to a girl 'cause girls are sort of second class citizens. R? Yeah. That true. That was the thing like I was never teased or made fun of. So I was never never eyeballed. And then in college, I was still living with my mom, so I wasn't really out exploring. It wasn' until I moved to LA where I was like, okay, where are the gay clubs at? Where are the gay kids this and that? And then when I would go to those clubs, I would feel very much like an outsider. Like I would didn't feel we. feel inexperienced? Definitely felt inexperienced and also felt like I don't have any gay friends either. And so I've just Cultivated this sort of like queer black women. It's not like a requirement. But the thing is like we had to curate that, cultivate that community. L it wasn't just like, oh, where's my other queer black mask women? It's that turnkey. No, L you got to really find folks. and we've literally found it. We were hanging out last night and it's private. we don't have our phones, we're just having dinner, we're sharing. It's amazing. But it took a beat for us to like figure that out Yeah. And so I think that's the interesting thing about community is that it takes effort It takes time, it takes energy. Everything worth having. No one ever knocks on your door and gives you something that's worth having. No. I do think there's this desire of everything you can have delivered to your door and not friends. No not friends, not partners, not any of that stuff. No, you got to work jobs, all the shit That's worth having. You' gott to fight for it. They don't hand it out.. And thence you get it, that's when the real work begins. Yeah. So you got, I don't want to say lucky because obviously you hadd gotten a degree in it, but you land pretty quickly in LA after graduation as an assistant to an executive producer of girl girlfriend. Yes. Yeah, right? which I was loving O the greater of that show at the time been the youngest black showrunner ever. like thirty, maybe, right? Beause Evety Bowser, who wrote on a different world, she was up top. She had created a show called Living Singles. So she was outside as well I want to give her flowers. And then Mara Bacaquill was also coming up at that time. Mara. ye. Anytime MARA, I'm afraid is it Mara or Mara I'm heading in this case, it's Mara. Maraject. I. Please, come on. Last week or two weeks ago, I met Mara twice in like one week. She's stunning And she's incredible. I went toner. Yeah, of events. Mara doesn' right into a lot of events. But she was at two and she's the best when we exchange numbers. I told her the story of the show and she was like, I wantna listen. What episodes I was like sending her episode. So hopefully she'll hear this. Oh yeah bigig shout out. Mar I'most send to two Im episode. That that feels like a real blessing to land Awesome With that person as a potential mentor. Oh my go. and she has, she has been She camet be the quQeen,' Lim P premiere. Gina Prince Bythwood. I want to shout out as well, who wrote directed L love and basasketball. Mara got me a job working for her on Secret Life of Bees. once I was done with Mara. and then Gina got me a gig working for Ava Duveray, when she went to go direct her first film. So that's my trifecta of fairy Godmothers in the business. And Gina just hit me like today because she got a chance to look at my play that I did in Baltimore H and Reggie Bywood, her husband who was also a big mentor of mine. They literally sent me a text today saying, Hey, we love this play. It was very well done. Re reallyally proud of you. I was like it's like my parents are telling me they're. Okay, so when you leave that show, is your first staff writing job on bones or is it on the Nickelodeon show? Nickelodeon was first and then I got bones. So I did a half hour multicam and then I did the hour long procedural Culturally going from So different. Yeah, and how did that go? I kind of struggled on the multi cam kids show thing because it's just sort of not my vibe. I'm not watching a lot of that. Yeah. but like I needed a job and the lead was a black girl and so they couldn't hire Choozzy. I love him. He was like, all right, I must have you two bllack women split the check becausecause he's like otherwise I can only have one. I know, that' sort of it goes's not his fault I mean, it's the way goes. They did like the paper team situation. So me and another bllack female writer shared an office and we were on a writing team And then I didn't like work for a bit, but I wrote the pilot of the shy had a table read for it. Did you sell it to Nevinanss? Yes. I love Nev. I love him so much.. I call him My Clive Davis, he was like, come on in. he taught me a lot too. He said to me, whatever you't get in your first season, you'll get your second. whatever don't get in the second season, you'll get in your third. He was so great at breakfast. and he just sort of gave me such great He bought the pilot in fifteen, but you didn't shoot it tntill eight. We shot two pilots of it. We did one pilot. he said this could be better And he was right and we did it again. And then that was the one he greinit. So two things, A, hard to hear that. B, what a champion to say, go get it right. Yeah. right? Was it hard to hear it or did you know it as well? Or was he wrong? No, he was right, ultimately. I can't have to give him that. I though, didn't think the director we had for the first one was the right director for it. I will say that, and they were like, no, this is big deal by the way,'t need to say his name or whatever, but no to disrespect anyone because he is very talented and amazing. I just didn't think he was right for what I was doing. And so then we did that, and in essence, like Nevis was like, yeah, okay We were both right. And so he said, let's go here. And we got Rick Vamaua, who directed Dove, who directed The Wood. and he directed the pilot of our show, which is a big reason why I think it went. We had a beautiful cast and Alex Hibbert who came from Moonlight right over to our set. And obviously Jason Mitchell was coming off the show out of Compton and Elanda Ross and Jacob Lladimore. just the whole cast was really wonderful They sort of brought us into this space of, o, okay, this is the show. I always wanted to be an ensemble piece, but they were like, no, you need to lead. And then of course, season three h L was taken away due to some events. And then it became the show that I think I always intended it to be. Do you think this description's fair? I've read this many times where people say like it's a hopeful version of the wire? H. I mean, that is maybe the greatest show ever made. so it to be in the same sentence. hopeful. You know, yeah, I definitely get the comparisons for sure. And I think the wire did something that hadn't been done on television before And I never feel like weird about comparisons or people mentioning things in the same sentence ' I think that's such an honor. And I think the shy really for me was the slice of life ensembles. I didn't w to necessarily go too deep into these different organizations or places or things like that, because I really wanted to have people in living rooms having conversations while people in living rooms are watching it and maybe be encouraged to have their own conversations. I'm a writer that I think leans into ations Wing to start conversations. Not even wanting to start them, but them have them. I love Matthew Lopez when I'm a playwrright recently said to me, which by the way, what you got from Mike Nichols, but he was saying that every conversation there's like three categories. It's like it's a negotiation, it's a seduction, or it's a competition or something like that. And so I really kind of carried that and I mightm be paraphrasing I really do love the art of a conversation. Yeah, conversing for me, it's a very fun game. It's like the best game and you can play it all day long. Yeah, exactly. I just love games and I think talking to people is just this super fun game. Sometimes people like to be in combat in conversation and I prefer to be in dialogue I mean you're saying something, I'm digesting it. I say something, you digest it. and we can kind of accept that. Mine would be opposite of comeback. It would be I say something It opens the door for you to say something even scarier, which opens the door for me to say something even scarier.. That to me is like the ratcheting up of it. Not like a conflict, more just like, I'm going here. Oh fuck, okay, I'll meet you there and then plus one. Yeah. That's the fun game of it. I love that. I think because that's really how you get to be close. I'm to say something scary. And that gives me permission to say something scary too So I think Master Nun is a very interesting and probably unexpected deviation. Yeah, but ultimately has to be a wonderful thing to integrate into the overall thing. It would have changed my life. I learned the story today. I would have assumed you and Aziz were friends. that the role was written for you. I know. That is not at all what it was. Yeah, not at all. It was written for a white woman that might become his love interest. Correct.. So walk us through how I don't want to do thisz like I don't know it was a white woman. was just supposed to be st someone and tell us himself. Look, here's the truth. I don't know how likely that is But get Brad pit, as he'ason' sorry, I don't know. We'll see what happens. I again. Yeah. Trust me, I know. I know. I love him. I love my brother. He doesn't like to talk. He doesn't wan to talk to people. Like that's just how he is. He talked to Amy, which was surprising. We've had Amy fifteen text exchanges. Come on. And they're all about watches. I'm like that's we're gonna do huh? We're gonna Yeah take it. It's more than what' Starting the show and eight people that we wanted. He'd be great though. He's on there. Having me here doesn't hurt 'cause not gonna be like, okay, talk to me about it. She live. Yeah did she live? I me call first the maor. she live. talk about it. No the bikele thing's really gonna throw me I know Oh Jesus Christ. Again, I gotta a shout out to Alison Jones. We had her on by the way best friend of the p. That's right I did I That's also a rare thing ' she to talk to people. I know. She's I just discored. But you know not 'cause she doesn't want to per se, she made it very clear She is so flattered and no one ever cares about casting directors. She just didn' think anyone. She kept thinking, why are you interviewing? whichich is insane. Yes, it's insane. But it's very endearing. She's phenomenal. She literally saw something I put out online, which I wasn't even in. There was a pilot presentation for her ultimately did called twenties. I put it out there because I wanted somebody to see it and go, okay, we could do this. And so then I got a call that she wanted to meet me. I didn't know who she was, but I went and sat with her and I walked by the poster for freaks and geeks and bridesmaids Fresh Principal Lat, I thought, o,. She's like Lauren Michaels. Got it. Yeah. So I stood across from her. And I just talked to her about television. she has such great taste and everything. and I talked about Maude and watching that and watching Golden Girls. Are you pretty encyclopedic with TV stuff. Yeah. I've been worked at Blockbuster for a while. Yeah, ye. And bestest Buy. B buyer Yes in the movie did. You did your homework? I do. I know all my stuff. So we were just like talk about the most randomist like things and she just kind of goes, have you ever considered acting? And I said I have not. She said, okay. So like canan I bring you in for some stuff? just for like you know, shit and Gigickles? And I was like, sure. And she did. She brought me in for Veep and I wasn't able to really handle that because Julia Louie Dryif was like in front of me and so I wasn't expecting that. So I just like completely You got to be able to talk about fucking gun slinger to be was like that that's not a great out here But then she did bring me in for a tape and I got the comeback, which was cool. And then I got a call that said, can you just go meet with Aziz? Wait, really quick. canan I ask? Yeah. at that time where you're like, extra money whereere you like I want to act. I have a desired act. No, I just really trusted her instincts. I didn't think that that was something that was in the cs for me though. I'm a writer. That's what I do. So because Aziz and her, she was obviously brought on to do the show. I didn't have a title to forever first to get the title of the Damn show. This untitled Azzon Sorry Project. because y'all know how that goes But obviously I was a fan of Parks Rec and then knew his comedy. But I got a call that was from her office and says, would't you go meet with Aziz? And I was like Why is it casting people calling me? What's about the staffing? Yeah. like I don't know, but going me with diseas and Al Yang. obviously knew Alen Yang's name as well. And so I thought Okay, all right, I'll go sit with them, but it's from Allison's office. so this is strange. And they were like, I know, just go to his house and sit and talk to him. And so I later found out that Aziz told her that he didn't want just people to come in and read with him. He wanted to meet people first and see if they were interesting and then read. So he just said to her, send me interesting people. And by the grace of God, she and I just met. She said, Oh, Lina Wait is interesting. You should meet her. And He was like, Okay, I don't know who that is but' ent to the house.'s I went to his house and sat with him and Alan not unlike this, literally kind of almost similar. The furniture and everything. And I just sort of talked to them like I would if it was a staff Friding meeting, but it clearly wasn't. And I just was like myself, I had recently fallen in love. I was just being myself. comomfortable with my own skin. And then I got the call, Okaykay, he want you to read with him And I was like, okay, so we thought that was interesting. So I came and sat down read with him and it was just Inant Then I came in to test for it. The casting couch was a very straight white woman sitting next to me. And she's like, Are you going in for theenise t? Yeah. Are you going like? Yeahes,'s like it's funny we bump each together all the time. And I like By the way, it's so much better. Oh,'s It's way better. In other words when you sit down, it's like, yeah, I'm kind of the same, but way less good looking You're like different variations of each other. Yeah ye. And so it as these to me, who I looked at, it was Alen and Michael Scherttu, who was our parent on that. It was basically them saying, this is the NBC nineteen ninety four version of this show. This one we're bringing in Of course when I come in, it's like, this is where shit is going. Like this is what it is and so I totally get what they were doing. And so obviously when I went in, I had a cold too. and when I went in and I was like, oh I told I could showro this my flu game. al right around this man because I was like, let's go, 'causeuse I could just feel something that was interesting. And of course after I read and tested this disease was like, come on, come. Were you encouraged to be Lse and improv in that audition A little bit. 'causeuse again, if I'm going from, okay, we have this one archetype. we're trying this other thing out. Let's see all the flavors. Like I would w to know They knew I was a writer, they were like, you know, but I also didn't come in there I didn't want to blend the two. So the season one I didn't write anything. Yeah. M ande would have conversations where he would take little things from there and put it in there. But then season two, in success, he was like, okay, I want to do a Denise centered episode. And I was in season two a lot less because I had gotten ready Player onene. And that was a very interesting tricky thing because it was like classic. likeike we got to season two and now you say you want to go do the Sielberg movie only be being there for a couple episodes. And I was like, yeah, was like This is an opportunity. I'll give you a great episode, just talk of shit.' give you a great episode.'ll fine man. Don't worry about it.ike I gott to go to this movie and' all like, oh God, classic. And so sure enough, he came to London where I was filming so he and I could write the episode Beause I told him I can't write that episode you. I said because I gott focus on thisvie man. like, I, I'm tell you to be in fucking Ste with Silm. I got to show up. He was like, if you don't write it with me, it's not happening Good for him. So I was like, fine. I don't won an Emmy. Yes, it did. You won an Emmy for that. Yeah, we bec the first bllack woman to win for outstanding writing in a comedy series. Yeah... And did you love acting? It took some getting used to because he did want me to be myself. And you were in New York City? I was in New York City baby, going to restaurants for him. Yeah. I mean, he's like showing me's re I know how to eat oysters and like caveiat this kind stuff. 'causeuse he's such an old school gentleman type guy. He knows every restaurant. And I'm like, okay, this is all fascinating. Yes. What a tour guide to New York he must do? Oh my God. I mean, even in London too. I watch the show. I'm like, I w want to spend a week with him and Iking meet him at corners and eat shit. I know.'op being e. lookook at girls and eat shit. Let's go. about girls. No, it was fantastic. I remember we used to go see Moonlight together Barry Jickins was doing a Q and A after and it was just like crazy and then we were because we kn we had Thanksgiving coming up and we were like, Oh, this is crazy. He's someone that is a big part of not just my career, but I think just my evolution as an artist and as a person in the world. And I'm really grateful for his existence because my career wouldn't look the way it does if it weren't for him. And Allison Jones and Alen Yang and Michael Schher and Netflix, those guys over there, It's just such a big part of my career Now, what did you have to learn to run The shy I'd never run it. I'm not a sh, you've never run it. I'm starting a training program with the WGA and I realized, yeah, someone said Getting your own TV shows, like being beaten to death with your own dream. And nothing is trer than that. I always say the hardest core motherfuckers in all the show business are showrunners. Oh, you have to give it to them. That's what I't do becausecause they're doing budgets, they deal with actors, they dealing with excs, edit, they do every single piece of it. The way I get to sit here, you know, show out to Jewulel and Justin who co show runun it together, I do think it's a two person job. I get to be the creator, You know what I'm saying? And I get to like give notes and things like that. You were in the writers room, I was in the writer' room for season one and season two, and those were rocky times because I was a A young buck. likeike I was thirty, thirty one. That's young to be a show creator. They have show rununners they put you with who are older and wiser, but at the same time, I'm doing something new and you're holding ono something old. That's the inherent tension in all these situations. Always is I'm trying to do something new, but you know how to do it. Youre right. Both of you are right. Yes, correct. But we're fighting. but you can't get the green light until they're like, we approve this guy to come oversea. They spent a hundred million dollars on something. they want someone that has done it many times successfully I lightly call Michael Straar a parent on, you know, Master of None because you need that person that's gonna kind of watch o, o Okay, all right, what are y' doing? Okay? what's happening?, you want to do? That's the nature of be. And I think people that watch television don't always think about all those things or sometimes you have a whole episode and this actor got sick or this actor got a movie. okay? You go here, we got to rewrite this and that changes that story line. We'll figurered out. these two actors we want to be a couple don't really have great chemistryace. we'll go over here. It's all thesereative It's logistics. Yeahes, it's logistics. It's it's also a workplace. It's like everybody' always get along. Yeah Yeah, you're doing a lot of Thraapy for people HR Exactly Okay, HR dealt with that. So it's just like, okay, it's eight seasons. I was like, yeah, I'm going may eighth is we going to be in Chicago, L last day of filming. we're gonna to do the whole thing and go promote it in New York. Now explain this to me. Seasons one through five, ten episodes, season six, sixteen episodes. They did that. They asked us for more. yes. Season seven twelve twelve and eight I asked us to go back to ten Okay, so for our last season, G be Tan, baby. Okay. Yeah.vented by the way, parenthood, which I was on for six years, we never did a season of the same numbers. sameame thing. We did thirteen, We did twenty one, we did eighteen, we did fourteen. we did. Was that because of a stream or a network It was the network. It was like they would never kind of commit to us. We were always on the bubble all six years and it was like this year is like good news. sixteen. we're like, what fucking? what num number is that? You're either doing thirteen or you're doing twenty two at that time We're going to do sixteen and then one year we're going to do it they tell us midway through I don't know it was very confusing. When we they told us they w one of sixteen episodes, we'd already had our ten episode pitch. So we had to go to the them and say, well, you gott to give us a few more weeks to figure out what that is. And they were like, okay, but it's good news, they want more episodes. And it's like had a new guy come over and he wanted more episodes because it was doing well. But we had never told a story that way before.. We were real like, you're being told. You're like, okay, so were gonna do sixteen, got it. And then saidven, you doing twelve, Okay? And that's why they said, Yo eight, I got this would be ten. o, cool. Yeah Do you have the pride of having a show that went? ight seas This is like you're in the sinest of a.. I know. There's a lot of gratitude. but also knowing that when we came on at that time, it was a different world. eightight years ago. I know. Things were very different. Very different. Even more slightly more than eight because we did the first pilot, then we did the second one. R. So we had a mini room and then this and that I mean, you sold the pitch in twenty fifteen. Rct So you've been doing this for eleven years. Exactly. You've only seen eight seasons, but a pilot they'll never see a light of day. There's things that I've lived through that have really made me the artist I am now and maybe someone that can really see things from a lot of different angles. In twenty eighteen, you became the voice of AT and T. and I'm wondering what your tagline is, can you say it I want to hear it I made Billy Crudp do the Visa commercial Piceless Mastercard. I made him do it get home on this is how you know. I wrote one to fuck with Monico that he had. Master card was fantastic. Oh my God. Cold Rado was perfect. What What was my main 'cause it was was like what was my main I'm forgetivting. I havenad. Just okay is not okay Just okay is not okay. Is that it? Does that feel familiar? It was that, but it was something else too. It was something else. How many years did you do that? Iaged that for a few years, like maybe like three. That's the best job in Holly. It the best. Yeah I could do it a carereeive two Yeah. that Yeah. And the pay is nice. It' lovely. It's like nice payday. Yes it is. Yeah another minimal work situation. If you looked at your career and you charted your hourly rate, there would just be this huge spike and it wouldd be your eighteen. rightight there. It right there. And people would recognize me from my voice Spe had a voice that Yeah. You knew. your voice sound familiar Maybe Delta's like gonna have a huge campaign. No, she will. She won't. She's the kid who, you know, I'm certain to be wrong. What I love is she loves writing more than anything. She writes compulsively. We just had the conversation last night. You would love I imagine if you can imagine having a kid This would be the ultimate conversation you could ever have, right She wants to win there's like a writing competition at school to write basically the closing statement of elementary. And so all the kids are writing something. She really wants to get picked and to be able to read it on stage. She wrote it and then she read it to Kristen and Kristen said, it's really good. But I think and you're better off speaking to your dad about this. But I'm not sure that it's you. And so she came upstairs and she's like, Mom said this, I'm read it to me. And I got to have this conversation with her. And I said, the challenge is a writer is to never write for anybody but you. And it's so hard. I said so you could choose to write this to try to win a contest, or you could choose to write the story that you would tell your best friend Inca about your experience at CWC. What would you say about your experience to Inca? Your best friend And she was like, I get that. okay, I get that. And I was like, this is like the dream of all dour. Have a conversation like that with my daughter about what it means to find your voice as an artist Oh, That's good. I was just floating on a cloud with a whole conversation. It was so fun. You know, it's interesting because I am childless by choice. And it's why we talked about this a little bit. L if you remember that, I'm still in that camp. It's so fascinating because There's so many things that I think about in terms of like why I don't w want to be a parent. a lot of it is because you have to have a sort of mental capacity that at the end of the day, what's interesting is You have the capacity to sit and like hear it, give the note. You don goingt hear the rewite. You go maybe be there if she wins. you know. It's going be it's a lot if she doesn't get it, then there's also that, you know emotional showing up that you'll do. The most likely thing is if she succeeds at writing the thing she'd really tell her friend Inca, it's not going to get picked Oh, well, who knows? We don't know that. We don't know. But it age at this age in context, it probably won't be rewarded originality in true voice. But that's also the lesson you got the. Well I told her, I said, Look, h, She's okay. I always write her up just Well, luckily, I got my own story to her. It's like, I've always written what I wanted and it didn't work It didn't always work. Well I wanted to case a movie that was a love story. Nobody wants that. I wanted that. and it didn't work, but I kept doing it and one day the podcast happened. It took so many years of me being truthful to that. Sometimes it takes a while, but you will have the pride of having always to the story you want to tell. And that is invaluable and worth more than any amount of money you could have made. Absolutely. Where I do that because I have this mentorship program where there's writers, there's actors, there's people who want to be execs. and I get on zos with them once a month and they can ask me whatever they want. We have these lovely private conversations and I think That's where I realize, oh, that's where I can show up and like be real. because also it's that element too of being support and encouraging, but also being grounded and being realistic. And I think that is the path you're walking with your kid. Maybe for me as a mentor, which I've become and I try to do that, it' still a responsibility.. But I think you're doing I always say parents are doing God's work because it's a different kind of responsibility that you have This is a person that is a reflection of you, but also you want to make sure that they're on a carbon copy of you.. So it's like you got to give her guidance, but also make sure she has the space to become more of herself Stay tuned for more ar If you dare This episode is sponsored by Better Help So Monica, here's something that really stuck with me. BetterHelp's twenty twenty six state of stigma repeport surveyed two thousand Americans and revealed that eighty five percent of Americans believe getting support is wise. Yet seventy four percent say society discourages people from doing so. That's a huge gap. Most of us agree therapy is a good thing, but there's still something holding some people back from actually going Right. And I think that's where just talking about it, normalizing it makes a difference. I mean, as you know, I'm obsessed with therap I've been in it consistently for years and years and years. and I have said this and I shouldn't say it, but I do think if you're struggling and you've been struggling for a while and you haven't sought therapy, I judge you a little bit. Oh Okay Yeah. I know I'm not And I gott to go to therapy to work on that, you know, but also there are options for you. You can help yourself and Better Help makes that first step easier. They match you with a licensed therapist based on your needs. and with over thirty thousand therapists and twelve plus years of experience, they typically get the match right the first time Don't let stigma stand in the way of support. Start therapy with Better Help. Sign up and get ten percent off at betterterhelp d. com slash DAax. That's betterhlp d. com slash DAax This episode is brought to you by SopFi all in one finance app where you can bank, borrow, and invest all in one place. Let's talk bank accounts for a second. The average bank savings rate is zero point three nine percent in interest. You're earning pennies on your savings, but it does not have to be that way. With soi high yield checking and savings, the money barely making moves sitting in your savings account can earn over eight times the national average savings rate with eligible direct deposit. No account or overdraft fees, which feels rare these days. You can get your paycheck up to two days early, perfect for getting ahead of a bill or grabbing what you need right when you need it. Plus, get up to a three hundred dollars welcome bonus when you sign up with eligible direct deposit Sign up for soFi checking and savings at sofFi. com slash armhare. SoopFI chehecking and savings is offered through SopFI Bank NA member FDIC Terms Apply This episode is brought to you by service Now I have my dream job. I get to talk to folks I admire like crazy and ask them virtually any question that I want to. I can't imagine a better way to spend my time, But even dream jobs have some not so dreamy parts, the stuff that gets in the way of the actual work. 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Their matching technology is seriously powerful, and candidates can actually explain in their own words why they're interested in your job. That context up frront saves so much back and forth. There's a reason they're the number one rated hiring site on G two. Save time and meet great candidates sooner with Zip Recruiter fourour out of five employers who posts on Zip Recruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free at ziprecruiter. com slash stax that's ziprecruiter. com slash stackax. Meet your match on Zip Recruiter. The thing you fight the most is apparent constantly is They are their own thing. Oh my God. That's all you're doing. Like you're trying your hardest. I think about how many parents don't do that There's so many parents whose children are really doing that parents want them to do. It's very natural and gratifying to see yourself in other things. We search for that and that's how we bond and it's great. Invariably you do that, you see all these things that are similar to yourself in it and it's very gratifying. But then you have to go like, and that's ten percent of them. I might miss the other ninety percent does not like me at all because I'm not looking for it. Right. You got to remind yourself to constantly look for it.. Back to the baby thing. So what happened to me was, hey, I've always wanted kids. so that's standard. But also I had a friend who had a daughter just fell in love with. I'd take her trick or treat and she'd ride on my shoulders. and I just constantly was like, if I don't get a Madleine before I die, I'm gonna what built for it. Yeah I'm built for it But Delta fuck you up a little bit. Oh yeah, that's all the f. No, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 'ause then I'll meet kids and I'm like, oh, so my kid be cool and chill. Yeah and like this. But then the tricky party is though They don't have moments of not being chilled cool, like upset, It's just a lot going on. They'one. You know, I'm just like, how much do I have? I got responsibility for myself, my community, my work. And you feel fulfilled. I do. yeah. I'm whole. Yes. And I do think it can be very societal. I think sometimes people say, I, o, why do you want tona have kids? Oh, you know, I' at that age I can finally afford it or it's that time. Although out there so every other week, there's an article Newor Times about people can't afford to have the children now. so they're deciding not to for certain reasons or people don't like the world they may bring them into. But for me, it's more of an internal thing about what do I actually have the mental capacity for? What I also think about is like the end of a long day, what do I want to do with myself? And I think the first thing is to not take care of one else. Yeah, ye, that's fair.use is a different kind of thing that you're doing. 'causeuse also anything could happen with kid. likeike they fall break something. They s. But can I hit you with ph? No I'm trying to convince you No no, no, I'm just I just w want to point out a lot of these counintuitive things You might be shocked to learn or find out or experience that taking care of them is taking care of yourself in a way that was unimaginable. Oh, that's interesting. The amount of healing and perspective that's happening in those moments and the right siz of all of your concerns and all these existential things you have in the racket in your head the things that are important like someomehow it can alleviate all of those things. it's like you think you're going to be overwhelmed, but weirdly it prioritizes things in this way. Oh, this is weirdly nurturing to me and has yeah, just prioritized things in a very clean and lovely. Like here's what I miss about being an addict The beauty of being an addict is you have a single goal. Y.'s true. I'm telling you. It's a liberating fucking thing. It's like, I have one mission today Do not fall off of this high That's so Peaceful. Is it difficult for you to watch stuff like Euphoria or like I love it. So you can watch this. Oh I love it. Yeahah, yeah. Howcause I know? It's not like I just see it. I'm like, oh, I've been in that room. I know this thing. Yeah, I love it. Gotcha. Some addicts can't watch this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Yeah, but I hear you because I love Jada Pinkett calls her children, her teachers. She says they teach me things about herself, life, all that kind of stuff. And I thought that was a really interesting way of looking at parenthood obviously, you're thinking this the other way around. but I think for me, I am taught something by human beings every single day. and that's why I feel like I don't need to one or have somebody produce one because it really is a writer's job to be a witness to really look at human behavior and try to understand it and accept things about it that don't make sense to us sometimes. Be when I look at society, it's easy to get frustrated, but rather I say, why are we behaving this way? because it's not out of sheer desire for destruction. R. It's out of the sheer desire to be seen to be loved, to be a part of something. And so I think Yeah I may not be a parent. I don't have a desire to be. But I think what I do have a desire to do is to understand humanity and have empathy for us and to be able to reflect us back to ourselves so that way we could better understand ourselves. I mean, Chelsea Handler says this so perfectly all the time. She's like, I don't have kids. So I have the capacity to give to all these other kids. Oh yeah My friends have kids. Yeah. and just like she gives all these charities. She's just like, I have space. If I had a kid could not feasibly do all of that. Yeah, and I will say my friend Melina Matukz who has a little one who's like her son, who's not yet one, and he is in that space of when I come over there, I can just like hold him and I was over there old And she's like, you come over here to get your baby fixed. That's proble. And I was like, what? No No. Because when I hand him back, when I'm sitting there, also low key getting tired. He's getting heavy as hell. Yeah. He's heavy. She noticed. I'm like, girl, this is not normal girl. What' is happening? What's in the breast milk? She's like, no child. But as I give him back ' I'm like, yo, I'm exhausted before I leave,. She's just like, this should you giveing back over here. I was like,ah, I give I'm give Rck him back. We had a terrifying moment when Christma was probably like six months pregnant. We went out to eat with our friends, the Hansons and they already had two little kids And we were at Bob's B big Bys trying to have dinner impossible. It was not possible to have dinner with these kids there. So you guys were like, look, what we're about to do? Oh Lord, we can't go to Bob's Big Bys anymore. like thats a rabp. I don' no one else to fuckking eat hamburer. Yeah I don't wan toave house though let's keep it out Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, now we have an excuse. So you got that built in excuse, that's nice That's other thing. parents don't be going no Where. Anytime I don't wanna go somewhere, there's a play that night. Oh look, see. Look, I'm here, I go out. I go out a little bit. Yeah. I'm alsoide a little bit. J's a little bit social. You've been since elementary. probablyroably social. Yeah. It's life. It's your life for. You're social too. I am. You're social too. D drives my wife crazy L like, how many people do you need to talk to? I' like everyone, hopefully I think there's like seven billion left I have to talk to.ike it's your job It's your job. She always says the greatest gift about this show is that like I do get to talk myself out enough. So I' interable at night. Yeah Yeah The load's not all on her shoulders. I love you guys. I love you guys together. I'm not team Cer. What happens? I'm not I'm not. I'm like guys, No, I'll say Internet, what are you doing? Can I tell you my conclusion? you get messed up? Oh. That's all we got asked about when we got nominated this year. But I think my final conclusion on is the best way for me to digest that is Nobody's good enough for her. Oh my God. And I love that. And that's true. But I'm the next best thing That's right, brother. Yeah. You're killing it. You're dading the message. The message isn't against me. No it's nobody's good enough for her. And I love that. I'm glad that's how she feels about her. And I'm glad that's how America feels about her. This is real. This is real I can live with that. But to me, I just love what you two represent. Which is nineteen fifties O school No. But I think sometimes people have an idea of who they're supposed to be with. That idea is never as good as who they're actually supposed to be with. She said I was supposed to marry like head of UiseC. She're supposed to marry Mike sureirt Oh wow. You know, a good boy. Mike's pretty successful. And he's just a good human being. Oh my God. He wakes up thinking how he can help other people. I don't. I wake up thinking about speedboats. Okay I'm like should I order a Donie or buy I use one? No, but you also type a person that said, I got toa get a Madeline before I die Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's realue. I do want to ask one thing and you can say no. Okay But you were with someone for a couple years. and then you got married and it only lasted a couple of months. And I'm dying to know if something about the title fucked everyone up or you up personally It wasn't the title, no. Okay. It was me also feeling like E though I'm not As happy as I should be, I think this is what I'm supposed to be doing And I just didn't have the language or understanding of that My happiness didn't feel like it was important I think what was most important was that honor relationship this thing going, whether you're enjoying it or not Because of how much it's changed my life and how grateful I am for it and how amazing this human is. And I want to say happens is I want to be frivolous about that. Like I think we wanted different things. One of the things is like I actually realized I didn't want to have children. And that's a pretty big bl change. So but at that time, I just thought I just kept putting it off And so that wasn't me lying. It was me still trying to understand what I wanted and who I wanted to be. And I think that's why for me, it's really important having this perspective stepping back ' like we have to really ask ourselves, who life we want to because a marriage in a relationship is the blending of two lives, truly. And so you have to really ask yourself, what life do I actually want? And I don't think I was very clear about that. All I knew was I want to be with this person. I want to have this house. I want to have this dog. I want to have this mirror. But then I didn't ask myself But like where do you want to be if I Be like really? And in its best version It's like, I wanted this life, this person wanted this life. And then magically when we get together, the two of us get a life that neither of us even thought of. Right That's like maybe the greatest thing that can happen Yeah, I mean, or you could say, yo, we have impacted each other's lives in such a significant way. And now this might be where we give each other room to go and have lives that make sense for both of us together That's hard to do. Yeah, but I didn't do it in a way that was noble, that was honest, that was kind. It was done in a way that felt like a car crash. And that's because I just sort of like was driving the car too fast, not knowing the gear and just just sort of going. And that doesn't remove accountability for my behavior. It's hard to exit these things elegantly. V people. I wish I could have, you know, landed the plane better. You know what I mean? But I think ultimately and again, it's about giving yourself grace and kind of looking back and, oh, you could have handled that much better. You could have dealt with that in a different way. But what I do also understand, except is that I'm where I'm supposed to be. I know she's where she's supposed to be and I don't have any ill will toward anyone. I think anything ill will is toward myself. That's I think for me, the greatest feeling is I was with a woman for nine years. I still love her to death. We're friends And her life turned out so fucking good. Nice. And I'm like, o yes. Oh yes, that life is like too sounds better. Thats That's where I could kill you. If you crash the car and the person' Fuck up. That's hard to live with, but if like you can look back and like, oh good, she's so happy. She has the perfect husband and the perfect kids and fucking. Well, so happy. And that to me is how you know you really love somebody. is that when you want them to be happy and happierre without you. Yeah, yeah. ye. because I don't know if that happiness would have ensued if I would have stayed there. too me removing myself. I think was actually the right thing to do because I wouldn't have been able to deliver the life that I think she would have wanted. Yeah What are you most excited to do? You've done so many things. You have created many, many shows. You have them on Amazon. obbviously, we have the shy. The Sy. Yeah wrapping up. mayay twenty second.az. M twenty second. Paramount pllus last season, the Sy says goodbye. Okay, Shy says goodbye season. Yeah. What are you dying to do You're also a producer in cats, which just got nominated Jical Ball, myself, Cythia Rivo, Jeremy Pope, La Roach, John Legend. Dominated today for for nine nominations nine nominations one of the ones. thank you so much. one of the ones I've been there is for bestest Revival of a musical. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now let me ask you, were you a fan of cats? No. Yeah. the whole time I'm like, what' going on? And then I went to go see this version where it's told through eer black ball culture. It really makes so much sense. It lends itself to this world so well. It's almost like it was meant for this world. Couldn't agree more. It's phenomenal. It was perfect. That world would have made sense in the ball world and almost nowhere else. Exactly. Yeah. Paris is burning. I highly recommend everybody check out. Also Crerian in collection, Jenny Livingston, phenomenal documentary Changeed My life as well. What's that about That's about the ball culture. She She made a documentary about it when she was coming out of NYU. and it just is a movie that has been such an archival of our queer black ancestors and what they were doing at the time and the things that they were saying, but also speaks to reality of the time what was going on. So obviously love that. And then I went to go see this show at PAC, which is where it started, and I was blown away by it And then I wanted to be a part of it and they were kind enough to let me join the team and came over to Broadway and here we are Do you want to do another show next or do you want to do a movie? or do you want to do more AT and T commercials? I'm doing a movie writing a movie now which is an adaptation of a short story called Grand Rising, which is something that you guys if I say that, you kind of go like, huh, I don't know what it is. It's a different way that sometimes black folks in certain groups say good morning. instead of goodood morning, they say Grand Rising Oh. Grand Rising is something. that sometimes to feel like a little more enlightened you sort of say that Yeah Yeah. So it' one wrote this amazing short story. I read it, loved it. I raised my hand to see if I could possibly come on and adapt it. They were kind enough to trust me with that. Fox Searchlight is doing it. We're not telling much about what the movie is because I think that's the new thing now. be a little bit mysterious about the storyline.. Let folks come, experience it for themselves and see what it is. But I'm working on that right now. A couple of TV show ideas. mayaybe want to play with like what it is to be in your forties. so stay tuned. And then yeah, theater, theater, theater. That's what I care so much about just because I think with everything happening with the streamers and people not really want to go go see the movies, live entertainment is something that we can't deny. And it's like station eleven. It's like they're going around town performing Shakespeare for the people for entertainment. Because when all of this stuff showuts down, what do you have is people that can interpret words on the page and inspire you and move you. I think it's why Hamnett hit us all. Shakespeare sort of wrote about the most difficult thing he ever had to experience and we just know it to be one of his great works, but to see that movie and to see how story was happening in real time, obbviously the way they were showing it just reminds me that this is how we actually like to be communicated with I'm ashamed to say I haven't seen yet. It's o. don't worry. I have kids isn't there justar That's the trs. Yeah. That's okay. She didn't see F one when Brad came. She was like, I don't. I have fuck it with. I don't know why I was editing this show. I couldn't make it. It's like, Brad, haven't seen a movie. I it I. fine fine. I heard you're fine. I heard you look fine. I look good fine. I look good at it. No yeah, yeah, yeah. So theatater' my shit. Lena, just I adore you. I really, really, really like you. I' feeling I really, really like you. I'm so glad I got to spend a couple of hours with you that day in my heart swells when I think of you, and I'm really glad you came Now want everyone to watch the final season of the Sy, may twenty second on Paramount pllus, Go see cats. Yes, please. Watch them I was a part of season one of them covenant at seeason two, I wasn't, but I think both seasons are really strong. Okay. Also Tony're putting out good vibes come on win all the Tony w Ton. Anthon's as I call them. Get you a couple Anthon'. Anth. Let's get that eg got going. comeome on, let's go. we' see what happens. All right, Be well. Thankks for coming. huge scs by the. Thank you so much Stay tuned for the facts check so you can hear all the facts that were wrong What's up? What it is What is up How are you Good. You're good. Yep. Yp, yep, yep. Okay. Well we both went to Delta's play Oh my heavens That was a big event. It was a huge event. Big event. And events that happen within the event. Yeah, tell Do tell Yeah. Um, okay Mary Poppins. Yes. and I think some backstory is necessary. and you can help me be objective here But is like she's never been super into Dan or Musical theater or singing. Yeah. L just a Mild interest. I think she's done a few little plays I think she did last year's school play. but she just seems she seems to be in it for the social aspect of it, which is great. So we all went, you onna Me, Kristen. Who else was in that one o'clock show? Kristin's mom and dad. Oh, yeah, Kristin's mom and stepdad. And u For the first two thirds of the play No deelta. She's not in it. She was not in it. Yeah And we you were directly behind us with Anna And we were having some fun up until then, right? Yeah Because there's a lot of goof. It was the first run through of it. There's Yeah. There's lots of mic errors. There's, you know, there's the expected stuff. Yeah, we've discussed plays before. Yeah, it's the whole it's the whole school. So there's second graders out there, you know. Yeah. And if everyone did a great job, everyone did a great job and it was also very fun. You know, you can hear the mics and the bat, you know, the same same same old stuff. Yeah, you know all the standard fare And I think even Anna said, is Delta in this, you know, at some point? Yeah. Then she came out. She was misses Anderson And for people tot remember and I'm not super well versed either. Mary Poppins. Yeah Meredith Poppins. Yeah. She splits at one point and they bring in mrs. Anders And she's an old fashioned old Anders or Anderson. Anders or Anderson. You know, take your pict. Okay. Saman or Tomato. Okay. She comes out and she's a bitch. She's mean to the girls and she's shoving people around. Yeah. And right when she came out, she full commitment ull energy. Yes, she came out with a real presence. A real presence, a real intention. Yeah H immediately, her dictation was off the chart. Yeahah, they have to do accents, which I just wish they would take that off these kids' plates. I think, you know, all in all, they did pretty darn good. Yeah. I think if you got like adults to do it, the accents would have been much worse. Like just a random sampling of adults doing British accents. That's true. like 's not I was expecting could be wor It could be worse. Some real snafood. Yeah, I just feel like they should have taken that. What was going on? like they need to get enough on their play. Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, she did a great accent. She did a great accent and you could understand everything she said. And she was projecting. She was l loud. She was. And then she has A solo song All right, mayaybe you take over now because I might sound too subjective as a father. I'm subjective too. I don't know that I as a soulmate. Very objective. Yeahah, but no, she just did so she just like H so much confidence. She sang it so well. she wasn'tca like, you know, you're kind of scared when these kids are singing. Yeah obviously, anyone singing if any play, it's like, oh God, like what if they mess up or what if they whate It's very stressful. And she just knocked it out of the park and was so confident and like Loud like she melted like with her Diaphragm, like she did it all right and it was o, it was so wonderful. Yeah, two megab belts. It was The last one with her on top of a staircase and she looked possessed. Yeah. She like the level of commitment and she was screaming to the rooftops and it was holding Yeah. I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it I mean, from last year's play to this year's play, Major jump. Oh my goodness. Major jump Like we have four performers in the family. sureure. And she just threw down a performance that I think might top you know, Chris, nice professional work. Well Okay I don't want to sure now I guess we are getting subjected because that's not true. but but it was Like I think last year at this time, we had this conversation here that was a little touchy, but I was like she's not committed. like No well, she was more her mission on that. prerevious one as we talked about was to make sure everyone else was doing Yes. She was being very bossy like vocally like up on stage like telling people what over here over here. Yeah, ye. Yeah. And I was like, oh no, like I wish she would just commit. Yeah no And then Boy, did she take the note? I mean, I didn't give it. Right, right. She learned on her own and she really just She brought the fucking house down. It was so good. It was so exciting. I said We cheered like it was a Super Bowl. Yes. I said, wow. Okaykay. so that's what the experience is for these people who have kids that are great athletes and like score a touchdown. know I've never really had that experience yet. Yeah. No touchdowns in the family. No no goals scored This was I get how the parents get addicted to it. Oh yeah. It was so exciting. I know. Yeah. we were rowdy screaming for her. It did remind me. I told you this, but There's a picture of the state championship Second year, I think, mayaybe first year, I don't remember, but there's a picture of the parents. you know, everyone is just like freaking out. There's this picture and my dad is out of his Wearing a hat. He's like wearing a boa. and his Yeah, they like hand these out or something in my head he has a boa, maybe didn't He's like, yeah, up out of his seat screaming and it does it takes over. It takes over when your kid is like crrushing. Yeah. It's so exciting. And then the moment that was tied for that moment where she was on the steps at the ends yelling from the bottom of her soul as loud as she could. wasas I was and Lincoln was there all day volunteering to help all the girls backstage get in their outfits and as an as an alumni. Yes, yes And I had this You know thirty percent. Anxiety over Okay, well one child has already declared this is her path. The younger sibling now has just come out and fucking crushed. Oh, wow, okay. What will this reaction be? You know,' seeing her get so much attention and praise from us D. I had some anxiety about that. Yeah. I think you were standing there so sweet When Lincoln ran out and they met each other in in the ran out gave her a huge hu. She picked her up off the ground and squeezed her and she was genuinely so pumped. She was so proud of her. It was so sweet. It was so sweet. My heart was just destroyed at that moment. I'm like, Oh yeah, siblings, man Yeah, It's more important than anything else Yeah Well, no. you know. You don't know about that statement. Yeah. so it was did you ever seeen Neil Crush had anything? and did you give him the full Only now. I mean, he's crushing at father. He's aboutly f crash fire fatherhood. Yeah No, um No, I was really hard on him. Yeah, but he needed it. Yeah, he needed it U he's look at him now. He's doing great. Yeah It all my mothering. But yeah, no It was really, really sweet and I loved it. And then there was a five o'clock, which I didn't go to, but there was a big incident. Yes. So we're at the five o'clock, The curtain's down In inter mission, right? It wasn't Intermission It was just between some scenes where there was a little downtime. Oh. And so the curtain was down And then all of a sudden you hear from the audience this horrendous crashing sound. Yeah. And it's like it's substantial, right? the kind of ground shook. Yeah And my only thought was like, oh, did one of the sets because they have pretty big sets on the stage like two story sets Did one fall forward? Yeah. And oh my God, where are the kids? Yeah. And so I'm thinking this and then Kristen jumps up and goes backstage because she's like clearly something happened you can hear kids back there like they weren't screaming, but there were noises. Okay She goes back there, Scops out comes back and she's like, you are not going to believe the size of this tree that just fell into the school. And so after the play, I went and looked back and there's this like, you know, like a cement balcony with like a really huge steel railing, maybe a loading dock is thing off the back of the gym And this enormous tree like the width of our oak tree in the front yard. like the the trunk had to be like thirty six inches in diameter, maybe more It just exploded and it fell in all these directions. It bent like the big fence post size. railing Yeah was just crunpled like a taco, huge branches on there table that they were all sitting on 's so scary. Ten minutes before was flattened. U M It's crazy. And I was like, Oh my God. I just was like, yeah, my first thought was, o, this is why it's completely pointless to worry about your children. because You're not even going to think to worry about I hope a random tree doesn't fall on them on the fucking playground of the school. Some people do think like I, but it's It's not generally people wor kidnapping and all these of things That's true. Yeah. And it's like, okay, so thus far, the closest call we've ever had was just a tree exploded in the backyard of the school. Yeah. I mean, freak accidents do happen. Yeah Yeah, it's very And like you just don't even know what to worry about. That was my thing. Yeah, that's a good takeaway. Like yeah That's crazy. That was almost a Newsworthy disaster. Oh my god, it would have been M. It was crazy. But everyveryone will have a different takeaway. Someone will be like, I knew God was real. you know, someone will Say S, me, probably Yeah, there's there's a lot of takeaways. you just Chhoose. Yeah, you get to pick Yeah, I mean, I don't think there's much meaning behind it for me other than just, oh, it's a good reminder that like life's that way And it's really pointoless, Ste even worry about anything. Yeah. That's a great example of confirmation bias, right? It's like, whatever your overarching theory on life is, everything, every bit of proof will file in and support that. Yeah. So it's like for you that that proves the world scarier Why didn't say that? I sorry, I didn't mean to give you that. Yeah. label. Yeah. and then For me, it immediately confirms, like, yeah, what a waste of time to worry. I don't think I thought like the world' scarier. I just feel like, yeah Things go wrong all the time. Yeah, yeah. But also I think like Wow, so lucky Its just like Oh lucky. And we're just missing things all the time. Oh yeah, yeah. J' like constantly avoiding catastrophe all the time. Yeah But yeah, like yesterday I was walking down the street and there were so many cars. They were regular cop cars, they were all like just like black Unmarked was unmarked. but then one was like on like had lights or whatever in the back. but there were so many in a row. Where was this at? On Western. And I was just walking by, noticing all these cars and And I was like, oh, well something is going on. S is probably bad. Yeah. Yeah. And I thought, oh, do I Should I go home? Like this is right where I'm about to be. Okay. and Are you in the car? Yeah, I was walking to the car. and so it was next to C come by the Maskin Robins or that weird apartment building in between. It' sketchy apartment building. Yeah, yeah yeah. And I was like, I mean, there could be a bomb in there Um, should I go home then I was like D in They'll probably get it tell us to leave like they I guess I trust that someone in charge would tell us to leave. there and there was a cop on the street and he just said hi. when I was I was like, I can't be that bad. Right. He didn't say o on the other side of the. Exactly, or you shouldn't be here, ma'am Mam You didn't ask him I was cra. I wanted to. I should have. And then because when we left, it's still there and someone was yelling at them because cars were blocked in and he was yelling and I didn't want to They're probably executing a search warrant. He said when I heard one of the cops say something like when we finished the invest we're almost finished with the investigation. Okay So So some went missing and I was like, maybe it's a bomb or maybe it's a jumper O maybe it's a big drug like probably a big drug situation. O Hi Jack It could be a sex situation, a negotiation stand up. Hostage hostage. I mean, there could have been so many things. Yeah. And B guy was she would have asked 'causeuse he would have told you you're a cute young girl. he would have like wanted to tellot about it. I would have made it little more dangerous than it was Yeah, we just, you know, we had we would probably like You know flluffed it up a little bit. Officer, should I go home? Am I safe to go home or should I stay next to you Willle you protect me? I feel safer next to you Yeah. I'm just coming out. I was first one in. So they're told me go ahead and have ten minute break, which is why I'm out here. but I was first But normally I've in there. I was I was first one in there. Once I saw it was not dangerous, then I was Oh it's not dangerous? Well, it could be could be could always get dangerous. Prob we want to stay close. Oh, okay. Yeah What you doing for dinner hanging out with my friend Jess, you'd love him. I have fun. I think we're all wrapped up here. Okay, this is interesting Okay, dates. So we have a friend who just went on a first date Aioh And this person brought me up a few times because I'm in stories. Sure, right? Yeah. And then at some point, Girl. It was a girl on the date. It's a lesbian on a date with a girl. Okay Okay. And she brought me up. And then at some point the girl on the date said Should I know who that is? Okay. And then my friend said, Oh, she's my friend, bl, blah, blah And I then she was telling me this and I was like Yeah, this is tricky. It it can get tricky if you're bringing up your friends a lot on a day They don't really know backstory. they don't know like the level of friendship or whether either party are L compomatibly Exactly. sexually attracted to one another. Yeah if you're bringing up Jess all the Exactly. They't know he's gay. You gott to go my gay friend. Helen. You go my gay friend. I know She just my straight friend Monica. I know. But that seems like a weird thing to say. like Oh j I mean. He comes up. like he he's he comes up, right? And so yeah, I guess I have to say like, oh, my My friend, I think I'll just say my friend Jess And maybe it'll be obvious he's gay Yeah I mean, I don't know, I don't know To me it's obvious he's gay but I know it. I know. He at least has a name that could pass as a female Oh R. That is true. But if you're talking about beefy burger or anything peenis related, donon't think I'm probably gonna bring up beefy burger. Um Yet, Yet. It will come up. It will come up U But anyway, yeah, it's like a weird thing about how much you talk about to other people in your life On a d On a date. I think it's only the opposite sex if you're straight and same sex if you're gay I think it's only Um A thing if you're talking about your ex a lot Which is also fine. first day. And there are versions of it that are totally fine Right. If you guys still have complicated feelings about your ex, R. It's not place to discuss that, nor is it this new person They're they're duty to comomfort you through that. Right There are all rules If you've been with someone for a decade and you're talking about your life. where you're gonna ignore the last ten years of your life. You know, like of course was to come up. Yeah, I don't think that's a big deal. I don't think it is a big deal either for me, but I think a lot of people would say that's wrrong. Like everyveryone has these those people are really insecure and that's their issue Yeah. I don't think it would bother. thoughtought of someone having had an ex is too disturbing for you. R. You have some insecurities. Yeah That's not it's not that other person's. I know. I think I'm kind of like I want to know. sureure all the details. Yeah. I do. Yeah. But I don't want them to ask me. So I think I'm just leaving that off.. I think it's like a it's just like, hey what kind of questions would you want to talk about any of our past. Okay, but we're now on a date We're on a date Hi. Well, further along. We're dropping into like the I want to know exactly like what kind of info you're interested in about the ax the ax I think So Well, you have to bring her up, I guess. Yeah Um Well, we had to we were sharing our dog and then it just got kind of ridiculous. And finally I was like, just you can have snickers. That was probably hard. I have a friend who is going through that too. It's really a boyfriend No, no, a girlfriend, girlfriend, a girlfriend of mine. Yeah, but it's tough. It's not She's gay No, she was straight. She was my girlfriend. No, my friend is gay. Oh So don't worry. I was hoping you would I would figure out what what you want to know about the ax? I know. Well, what do you want to know about anx? I don't know. We have to you want to know what they' look like physically, don't know? No I actually don't know. I don't. Are you sure? Well, you don't want to findure out if they were Indian Oh, fuck ' we got a whole thing. I don't want if o, Do it again. I think you might need to Yeah. Okay. Yeah. so anyways, we had booked this trip and like we talked about going on it together, but I was like, I don't w to be in bombay with my ex. So I was like, you just take someone else. Oh. Yeah, and I transferred my ticket Okay. Oh my go. First of all, that would not to me. I'm not like, o, so she was Indian just because you were going there. Iust trying to tempt you in that sion. Oh, have you I don't even I wouldn't even a pregnant to be I would say I would say Have you been Ind? How have you How long were you guys together? An anything youo have you been India before I mean You don't care. You sa no other girl now. Yeah.. I almost was about to say, Ohh my gosh, I went to India last year on this kind of random crazy trip and it was Oh yeah so It was so cool because I've only been one time before when I was little and it was really cool. Oh, arere you Indian? I am yeah.. How about you're Lebanese? Oh, no No, no, I'm not. Well, I mean, I was born in Georgia and raised here, but my parents are Indian. Oh cool. How how are you with your ex How long were you with her? Five years. Wow, Wow. Yeah from forty six to fifty one. What happened? Do you mind me asking? Sorry if that's too private. I mean, what happened? Like a million things happened. Really? Yeah has happened relationship Yeah. That's hard Like I could list things and it'd probably just be me blaming her, but I'm sure I half the reason That's if evolved. Yeah, ye. That's evolved of you. Yeah. What are you gonna work? cheheese? Oh, you're off of it, you Theel? She young? Is she Indian I never asked Okaykay, I was on a dayate once where it came up, but I didn't ask. He brought it up. What did he say? He said like I am crazy an Indian and her family and something about an Indian prince. and I was like, I hate this I absolutely hate this. Oh. If anyone says Indian princess to me,, you're not for me. Well what is the stereotype? Exactly. I don't know. I know of the Jewish American princess. that's a stereot stereoty has a name Jap. It offends both people Two groups of people at once. It's a Even if someone said jab too me, I'd be like I wish you didn't say that. Yeah, sure. You know. was she a Jew? Someone I love said it recently. I was like Were they referr to a Jewish American princess or a Japanese person? Oh, you didn't even get that part? ye, I forgot. Oh gosh, okay. Jewish, I thought you were saying it offends Pincesses An No I don't care about offending princesses. They're ainy girl. Your wife is a princess. Not a real one. She is the closest we got. She played a There's actual princesses. Oh yeah. forgot. Yeah. Okay. well, I don't want to offend them either. but I can live with that. pking the group T talkk about punching up or down. Ryalty. Yeahah Yeah, punching up by royalty. It's more the Jewish part I didn't love when they said it. Yeah Well, I'm from a very Jewish area of Michigan I know. So that term was used a lot. Right And quite often by Jewish people. Right. Well, they're allowed this person wasn't Jewish Anyway, okay, if you said, if you said it to me on a date, say it somehow Are you Jewish Oh, cool I hard to be Jewish right now. Oh my gosh. I know. I feel I feel like the world is is nice. By the way, if the first d if the first date is somehow straight into Palestine's a bathroom. I going the bathroom. Yeah, Oh my go. I'm gonna I gotta tal. I'm gonna go Tonka all over the floor in the bathroom. I' go to Do I prefer doing that than having this conversation Well, yeah, no, I know, I know. But you know, I do get deep and I do worry sometimes that like I get us to a place we're not supposed to go to soon. Oh well, that can be fun. I know, but then it's like not fun because then yeah, we're tal about. I don't think what I know so far, which oh, I guess I should talk about going on a date That should be clear. o. From what I know so far, I just don't I think he's very chill. Yeah, yeah ye. And I don't think we're going to talk about global news. Global politics. Yeah. That's good Stay tuned for more armchair experts If you dare What if he's super into crypto? and he wants to tell you about crypto the whole time That's a hard one Even if everything else was like a thumbs up. Yeah, I think I would say What'd you say? I'd say. I go, have you heard of Bllizium It's a one to one currency. It's so strong promising. Oh, I have I love for thirteen dollars. a coin and it's already up to thirteen ninety do That's cool Do you how um Do you know Ben McKenzie? Have you ever heard of Ben Mcenzie? He was from the OC, but he's also I I never saw the OC, but I heard it was really great. Yeah, I actually also didn't watch it. o. But he was a big actor on on that show and he's also an expert in crypto and he was just on But what's he? what's what's his holdings? whichich ones is he into? Well, he's actually pretty of it. Oh Oh he's a hater? Well He's just mad he didn't get in when B was Maybe Yeah he's just jealous. Yeah, maybe. But I do you have a podcast? I do, I do, yeah.re you? Are you living me No, I'm not Ier I ye. Do you think only Lebanese people have podcasts? doesn't interestingly Tanka. Oh That's the way you parked in a lot called Tonka or something. That's when you poop in your car. Oh, so you're going outside to poop in your car. Yeah yeah, yeah. Fuck, yeah, can I come? Oh, you Well, that could salvage That Yeahuck That's This guy got pered That's right, can I come It would probably be a crypto guy that was into it. Yeah. So it all makes sense you know trrade offffs. Yeah. Eone no one's perfect. You're not gonna get it all. No one's perfect. No got you gott to get the right things. Anywho, I mean full honesty. Oh, Rob, he might be here Lucas or them B breast milk gu. breast milk guy. Coss a man. Rob is Cossy back going to pick up another drink for us using his ID. It's not alcohol. Full honesty. Yeah. I'm on a date. Yeah. And the girl goes, if you excuse me, I have gott to go shit in my car Dude I would be so into that. No. I would. I would be like Wow Who's this person? You would No what I mean mean. You would be like Who is this person? Yeah. I mean you'd be intrigued. Yeah, but you would not on a f you would be like, she's Well, no Ion't have the follow questions. I tell me Oh, o my God I'll be right back. Okay. D waiting? I have to God. I have to go Tonko What's What's Tonka It's when you poop in your car, okay and I have to car right now. Oh my go, you have to poop in your car right? do I do? Do you mind waiting? Well I don't waiting but can I just ask youion I can see it's fressure. Yeah Yeah. It's Wh why go in your car and not the bathroom here? Oh, I'm just like so uncomfortable I'm really uncomfortable pooping in front of other people. Oh sure. That Yeahah. people I have like a privy thing. I know I'm not gonna to make it home. How often do you do this? Every time you gott to go to a normal bathroom? It only happened once it almost happened again and I can tell it's gonna happen right now. Okay, how about I come out and I'll just hang by the camer and make sure no one bothers you But no because you don't want anyone like knocking on your window or if I see a dude peeping and I'll be like, bro. Fuck give her some privacy. Okay, that's really, really nice, but the whole is I can hold your bag too. Oh, you don't have there's no bag. You just like poop on this. B that bag next your f. Oh Do you want me to hold that w? It's really kind. Yeah. the whole Let let me a lookout for you. Okay it' be fun. No, Okay. The whole issue is privacy. Okay. I'm gonna look the other way, though Okay, you're being you're being a little pushy. Oh, you think I'm a weird now? We're not tell you something. you're about to go shit in your car. So why don't you fucking back off the judgments, Totsy. Now let's go Grab your bag. It was a great day. Dud' so memorable. And he would be like cut to the three years later. I can see him with a microphone in his hand and his tuxedo on And I'll go I knew There was something special about Monica When on our first date, she looked at me and said, if you'll excuse me, I have to talkonka And for those of you who don't know, Grandma Jane Graamppa Bill Tonk is when a woman uses her car to defecate it as a toilet. And I thought I should get out of here and run. No. I'm going to provide lookout services And I'm so glad I did. Oh c ces. They would also throw up. That the people at your wedding. Fuck, I hope this all goes down, man. This sounds like a great. Can you please, Naka Wood, you better not hope that on my date I have to talka. That is literally worst case scenario. Unless he loves it And then you guys have fast forwarded to like such a level of intimacy and trust and connection. I mean, if he has a ta, Yeah interesteresting. Not me. I don't want Okay. I don't want to be a girls in her car all the time. Okaykay? It happens one time all the time. No one wants to be. I know, but you're the one, you're kind of manifesting it for me. You wanted me to put a bag in my car trash bag. You just act like that's where manifesting, That's manifest destiny. Do you know if you're driving together you're meeting there? Okay, That's supposed to be the safe thing to do I don't know if it's safe or not, but One time I was on a date where the man picked me up The mail And at first I was like, Ohh, I like that And as soon as he picked me up, I hated it I really don't like being trapped in the car 't Now I'm aware of how he's driving. Okay. Precious cargo Yeah And at one point he was just And I didn't then I was like, you need to look at the road. I didn't thinking any of it.. So we're just gonna meet there. Okay. What though, how do we handle a nighttime? He is not or not do his h guys can kiss. He drives you home, then then he's got to get out and like open your door. and clean out the tonker from your back seat Put it in your trash can And then he might want to give you a kiss good night before you go inside. If he wants to kiss me after I've tonked? What a stud? Well, a stud and kink he's kinky, That's pretty cool. Yeah That's pretty like him. We like. Pretty cool All right, anyway, some fact.s you some fact. Okay U, okay, she talks about Half Man, the show and you've since watched it. I'm glad you're bringing this up. Yeah. She was dead right. She loved it. I love it. And now I even see what she was saying. 'cause at the time, remember, I think I said like, yeah, you and I watch things differently Like you're recognizing when someone's being represented, like that's important to you and you'll always notice it But anyone would notice it Yeah Like the show is is that type of show. Yeah where it is It's exploring some weird shit that goes down in most boyhoods that I'm aware of. Yeah. just weird boys are so fuc. I don't. I don't think girls know how weird boys are Little boys There's like a whole window where they're so bizarre. I cannot tell you how many these boys were constantly trying to show me their penises and they want them to sword fight and stuff. Yeah. they just don't they have these penises and they don't know what they're doing. They don't know what they want to get them out Yeah. smmack them around. I was just like, I'm not into all this sword fighting. hunt you weren't? No