Self Esteem and Personal Leaks

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair experxpert E experperts on E expert. I'm Dan Shppd. I'm joined by Monica Mouse. Today we have Leslie John on. She is a behavioral scientist and a professor at Harvard Business School And We get to get into parasocial relationships on this She has a great book out called revealing the Underrated powerower of oversharing. and this is an incredibly interesting conversation about parasocial relationships. Parasocial relationships we get into secrets, like the science of secrets. There's a lot of fun stuff in here. Yeah. Please enjoy Leslie John. This episode is brought to you by American Beverage. We've probably all had that moment where someone says something about an ingredient in your drink and you're like, Should I be worried about that? And then you look it up and immediately end up in the wildest corners of the internet with completely contradicting information. All I want is clear transparent information. 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That's true. The style is very consistent. Whatever you get there, you walk down the street, you're gonna look good. They have these lightweight cotton sweaters, which I love for when it cools down at night,'s nice Drape around your shoulders in the summer and then throw it out when it gets a little cool. And it's not just clothes. They do home stuff, ding ding ding, travel stuff, everyday essentials. It's all the same model, quality without the markup. Make your summer wardrobe easier. Go to quintince dot com slash ds for free shipping on your order and three hundred sixty five day returns. Now available in Canada too That's Qu INcE d. com slash dax for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Quints. com slash dax He's in our chance He's welcome. That's okay. I don't care . Thank you. Where did you stay? I stayed there for the Montroose in West Hollywood. It's like a little sweet,'s not, like a little boutique. Yeah. What you want from West Hollywood here? But I do do that. Okay, o. I am a bit of a crazy person But yeah, the guy at the front desk was telling me that that's where America's next top model The production team. and then I said, have you watched the Netflix? Oh boy. Oh my goodness. I haven't watched So many thoughts about that. Well, I only watched some and I wan to continue I mean then I forgot to continue, but I've heard about all Ram Okay, so then where did you walk from, if not your h out? I just walked from down the little street. I went to this little hipster. I'm sure that's not the right word these Why not? your like. I'm much other than you. I'm sure you're more dialed in and you're interfacing with college students. Yeah. Oh true.. Yeah. Do you think they're keeping young or making you feel old or both? Yeah, I think both Probably when you're around people your age, you're like, I feel a little younger than them. And then when you're on the you feel older than I am. Yeah. But I mostly teach executives now. so it's a different beast. I like it better because my go to is positive parenting with them. Okay with the ex. And they love it. Like reinforcement. Yeah, it's amazing how these tiny things can make such a huge difference, especially when there's strong gender age norms and all that. when walk in to a bunch of executives They're like they Where' the professor. Yeah Yeah,, right, right right. And so I always feel like we have to kind of earn it. Whereas if you're an old white dude, you're like au gust. If you arrived in a bvent lane and you're old and white. Yeah. these guys got to figurered out. Let's hear what he's got to say. But if you fucking walk And you're abroad from Canada Good luck. E. And I biked to school.. I did Cave and get an e bike recently. I feel a little guilty but, oh my Godd, it's amazing. What fun Why do you feel guilty? That's good. Well, it's my Catholic upbringing because you spent money on it. Yeah, and making myself feel comfortable should not be good. I've changed a lot. Don't give me. I think that's attribution error. A, how so? That's the ballerina. You're right. It's the ballet. That had such a more profound hourly you're experiencing like like we're in a pain social relationship. Pain equals growth Often Yeah progress. Or minimally, even if it's not pain, it's discomfort and I don't want to do this, but if I do this thing, I will experience some positive growth There's something to be said for it, like you do appreciate joy more when you have suffered, but I wouldn't say capital S suffered. I mean like a little bit of down And the peaks are higher. Okay, whereere in Canada are you from originally? I am from Waterloo. Okay, you went to Waterloo College. that's in Ontario. Yeah. What age do you quit ballet twenty one. And how would you rate the overall jour I mean is an incredibly privileged thing to do to go to train professionally at sixth grade and live in boarding school. You went to Germany? Yeah. It's just an incredible experience and I learned so much like I think I'm generally naturally, I don't know. My parents are really hard wororking. Like I'm a hard working person, but it I really nurtured that to a good and bad degree and just the work ethic and attention to detail. L you just be in the mirror, like swan hands.. You just again and that's bad. this now, I can't do it anymore. And just the experience of being on stage, right? Like the performance, that is the flow of moving to the music with your body and performing it I can't even use words for it. Yeah. So I actually recently a month ago met up with some of my old ballet friends. We hadn't seen each other. It had been thirty years since we've seen each other.. We hadn't se each other since ballet jail. We call Yeah The shared trauma. Lowercase teeth. grand scheme of things is not that bad, but you know, we talked about how weird it is that, for example We're like, I don't know, thirteen years old and our feet are bleeding before class. But the thought of even telling the instructor that your feet are bleeding would be like off limits. We were children. And I have little boys now. I'm like, can you imagine your little children dancing with bleeding feet and pretending It's just wild. It's pretty wild. Its prettyty wild. Yeah brutality physically but you can It's a brutalutal subjectively a wild niche experience on planet Earth for a young person. through historically and evolutionarily. These are just objective truths.' the truth. Okay, so when you found your way to college into psychology And then ultimately to behavioral science. What was driving that wasas it your Stockholm syndrome of this hobby of yours? And you're like, I gotta unravel what happened. I mean all research is research, really. I like that term. We haven't heard. No. Yeah. I loved still loved dancing, moving ballet. My shins were a disaster and fractured all the time. And I remember for me this moment where I was at some surgeon like Oh, we'll just shave your bones down. I was like fifteen years old. They're like, we're going to just shave your bones down and it's an experimental procedure that works for other dancers. And that's that moment when I was like, okay, I'm out. It's one of those things where You kind of know that the fiting's on the wall it's not working and you almost want someone to be like, you want like a sign so you don't have to make the decision yourself in a way, right? Yeah yeah. kind of hope your shins intervene. Yeah. which is weird. you like hope for the worst in a way. sometometimes people are weird, including myself. So then I went to university and it was awesome, collollege, as they say here. And I've always been fascinated with decision making think I come from a long line of very indecisive people. Indecisive. Indecisive. Yes. likeike quirky weird decision making. So for example, on a family ski trip, my mother and father would say, it's a flat rate forty bucks or whatever it was back then. We have to ski until we get the price of a run down to two dollars.ice per use they're on that yeah. Oh it's like yeah. compleompletely irrational because it's sunk, but so motivated. You need twenty runs. Yeah, which is a lot. It's a lot of. I if there's a lot of lines at the chairlif. Exactly. Was this out of frugality or like gameify? so is a great question. This is a great question I think it's out of irrational frugality. Okay. Yeah. Pennywise and pounds. Yeah. ye ye. Another would be we'd be grocery shopping with my mom and there'd be a coconut milk, something that you don't need a lot of. usually. I do love coconut milk, but it would be on sale limit ten. Oh. And then we'd come home with ten. That's ironic that a limit would make you buy more. It really fascinated me these quirky things' seemed a little irrational. Yeah. I mean, I didn't have that vocab then, but odd things that made me Hm, that's interesting. So then I went and I got a PhD in decision making. It's actually something like behavioral decision research. Yeah It sounded like. No, I love that. What do you want to call this? I know.D. I know it's funny. guys grad students were like, can we call it something different? like psychology? economics, Economics, it's high status But no, we have this super weird Oh. So I don't know what I am to this day In Carnegie Mllon, which we've had a bunch ofarnegie Mllon folks You start at Harvard in eleven You get promoted in sixteen to associate pro professor and then twenty twenty one, you become tenured, right? So you've had this fifteen year Yeah arc there. in the first ten years of research I want to talk about because it was focused if I'm correct on secrecy and the decisions made privately and when and when not are shared publicly. So let's talk first about that. That's fascinating. What brings you to secrecy? So at that time, I remember when I was starting, I remember looking over at someone's computer we in the lab and they had this Facebook wall. I'm like, what the heck is that? I don't understand. It's a wall, you can post. Like it just seemed very foreign to me. I just became fascinated with why are people doing this posting and stuff, and it feels rewarding and I try to understand it. And then it's interesting because this is where you see the area you're in, you're shoe horned into a certain perspective without even really realizing it pers of that field is very, very narrow in thinking about decision errors, like points of irrationality. Where do we stray from what a standard economist would do? Wh standard economics the standard.ike if it was, we'd all be AOols. I don't want us to all Stard economics tells us a lot. We sh't all act rationally. There's a lot more to life than. I think' be Dix, the focus there was like kind of on documenting errors we make largely online with sharing information. One of my favorite studies was this study where we asked people super sensitive questions Well, secrecy is the topic. Oh, I want to take the quiz. to I've got quizzes galore for you. He. Okay, so we were brainstorming these questions. My PhD advisor is Freud's great grandson. Oh, wow. So that explains a lot of the types of items he would come up with they were kind of still consistent. With repression and sexuality. Yeah, ye, yeah ye. And I'm a fresh pimply faced twenty three year old grad student. The design of the study was let's ask people outrageous questions in the name of science and just vary what the interface looked like, H it look like super unprofessional versus professional, and see whether people ironically reveal more on the unprofessional side. Interesting. Which I'll tell you more about in a sec. But to do this, we needed to brainstorm a bunch of really sensitive questions.. So I'm sitting I even remember what I was wearing. It's one of these like flashball prmories. And he starts off and he's like, what about bestiality?? Sure. Yeah, what about Oh my God. That one is almost more innocuous. ag I kind of asking someone about anal to me is more So we had that feeling than Biality just because because it's great Low probability. probability. Yeah. I need you to validate it You know, and then it was just like every as someone who's neurotic, every question then I felt revealed something about me, every brainstorm, like that I was either approude. If it was like, have you ever masturbated or that I was really irresponsible? L have you ever neglected to tell someone about an STD that you had? I was just very meta. So then the study, what we did was for the crazy site, the unprofessional site, which is supposed to be a site that you should never share your data on because it looks shoddy. So it was called How bad arere you and it had this bitmap graphic of a devil and comic Sans's font, like it was just ridiculous. compleompletely absurd looking. Also people gave their actual identifying information. Some of the things were illegal, and they revealed twice as much. Wow on the crazy site that is unprofessional than the one that just looked kind of normal. What was your group of people responding to this? How were you reaching those people? So that's a great question. Different samples. One was I walked around Carnegie Mellon with the laptop. We had this big data truck It whole van that we drive around and bring people on the van. To be asked about sexual questions in a van, it sounds a little. I know the things we did. Step in this windowless panel van and let's talk aboutity we go in the evening to the like drinking spots.. My advisor managed to amazingly get it posted on a blog of the New York Times. So it was New York Times readers. for doing this too. So that like it has the legitimacy. And so the samples, maybe you change the questions so they're more relevant to the samples, but again and again, we found that people revealed like twice as much O the nasty on a nasty one. Yeah of. But then like well see, this is the thing. in my narrow thing we're like, oh my Godd, this is like an amazing publication and we wrote it up because it was like so shocking to academia. But then when I'm presenting it, everyone's laughing at it. it's hilarious. And then I'm like, well, duh, of course people read because it's hilarious because it's fun. People want to reveal because it's fun to reveal. Well also the creators of the site have already brought cast their morals in some sense makes sense They go, hey, this's a place for naughty people, Right. And devil's here. And it's kind of saying it's feel judged here. Yeah. And this other place I'm gonna feel judged.. Yeah or like the government's watching or something. Right. Right, R. If it's official then it even Yeah. like these clowns. I mean, they couldn't do anything if they wanted to with my d. gets on a website. Exactly Those kinds of reactions were so helpful to me when I presented it because over the years, I came to realize that this perspective that we're bad at privacy and we overshare, it was not wrong, but it wasn't right. It was just so narrow. And when I looked back, the one single thing that was consistent was that when I make people feel comfortable, when I make it funny, when I give them space, they really want to reveal kind of ever since I've been obsessed with the other side of like, are we sharing enough? And why do we do it? And what does it get us? And what are the ins and outs of all that? And that's what the work evolved to, right? You start doing more work on Vulnerability and sharing. what ten years at Harvard? Yeah, after I would say like ten years. But can I ask while you' doing the secrecy work, what is the driving force behind secrecy price to people pay carrying secrets. Oh, does everyone have them have secrets Anecdotedally knee jerk and say, yes, everyone does, but I never studied it. I mean, is there someone in the world who doesn't have a secret? mayaybe. But the vast majority of us have secrets, It's safe to say. And the average number of secrets that each person carries is thirteen. Oh wow. But with a huge amount of variance. thirteen's high becausecause my hunch is when we evaluate who has secrets, we go like Well, all right, I'm an addict. I've had all kinds of carnage and lots of sexual partners. So I'm like, oh, I probably have more I think that would be a wrong understanding of secrets, which is they're not big in fractions per se. Everyone has some barometer of what they're trying to do. When they fall below it, that becomes a secret. I had an old friend of mine reach out to me literally a month ago. I hadn't seen her since college. We were roommates and she's like Leslie I have a secret that I have been carrying for God knows how many years. This is the second thing she said to me on this catchup call She said I'm the one that ate the Oreo. Stop. There you go. knew it wasew it was you the entire time. Al f What could be cuter than stealing some Oreos. I know. was so earn I mean so Canadian, right? She was so earnest about it. And then I was like, really? I feel for you that you've been keeping this so long, right? And that's the thing with secrets is that secrets can be harmful when you're actively keeping them because you need to like monitor. And there's been some really fascinating studies on how when you are keeping a like these studies actually they good experiments in and that they kind of endow you with a secret then they do some kind of intelligence test and you perform worse. It's because you're actively monitoring your're precoccupied with a secret right. Exactlyace to keep all the many versions you've told us Exactly. Exactly. And then it's like stressful and it's bad for wellbe and all this. But that's of course not to say that we should say anything and everything all the time. We often keep secrets for a very good reason. like I'm thinking of family secrets and secrets from our children. Well, there's legal ones too. Legal secrets too. There's things that could get you arrested in A have a really good of policy It's like you're obliged to make an amends to people unless to do so would injure that person or others. You have to be very objective about is un burdening myself right you and then other pent Yeah. There's also tons of research on how when you say the thing, it's worse in your head than it actually ends up being. Exactly. A lot of it is like the rumination before you say the thing and then you say the thing and you're like Why was I ruminating? That was a waste like the Oreos. Yeah, yeah, like the Oreos. So how did that then transition from kind of being obsessed with secrecy to encouraging, ultimately you wrote a book encouraging people to share more. The main impetus was this growing bleing a double life feeling of I literally was like telling people, we suck at privacy. I would lecture them And then in my personal life, did I have all my passwords on an notepad? Do I do buuzz feeed quizz? Like they're M gryphonite? Yes. Wait, that's hypocritical at minimum. But I think if you asked me to probe deeper into it, I would say It also coincided with there's been a lot of changes in behavioral science and Kind of the old school way of doing things is really negative and like people are bad at making decisions and look at all the ways we suck. And it's really fascinating seeing how we're irrational I felt that that kind of vibe for lack of a better word, It's kind of toxic when you're like seeking what's wrong with people. thenen you look around in academia and nobody praises anyone. It's hyper, hyper critical. Where's the joy? And so it was like, okay, wait revealing, why did they do it? Maybe people are right to do it. Maybe it's joyful, Maybe it's fun, Mbe it opens up doors and relationships, Maybe it gives you influence, Maybe it does all of these things. So I was like reflecting on times when I thought that I had overshared these moments of TMI. It's like I poured gasoline all over my body and let a match. There's no recovering from this. And I looked back at these and I was like, yeah, that sucked What about the long game? Every single one of them, there was something amazing that came out of it. I only connected it when I was working on the book Yeah becauseuse you were in a group of other people and you were encouraged by high status me of the group to share an embarrassing story. I e career suicide. So I was a baby academic. I was at this conference late at night and there was mostly junior people, but there was a couple of super grand pubbas who did not know of my existence at that point. and someone had the idea of let's go around the circle and share our most embarrassing story ever. And most of them were like humble rarags, like there's a typo in my abstract or something like, o no, the horror, right? Like this way of showing off without seeming like you're showing off that super obnoxious and Iy roll. And for whatever reason, I don't know why impulsively I just went for it and I shared my actually most embarrassing story, which was when I was in college, I was acting at a play and I peed myself on stage like in a lavish way. full EVac of the bladder. Fully You could see it. I believe so. How much detail do you. This is our bread and butter buckle in. I was wearing pandyhose. Yes, it was noticeable. I was in my Duted thinking slash half thinking slash panic in the moment. I'm on stage and it's like a waterfall it feels like because I played a drunk school teacher. Oh, you were just inaracter So I was like really into it because I was like a prim and proper and there's this one scene where I go crazy that I couldn't wait for. And so I'm on the tables and they're laughing and the clar iss laughing, so then I laugh and then that happens, the waterfall then think Okay, well, how do I cover this up? I don't want them to see this. So I have this giant bottle of Voda. And so then I'm like o So they' throwing the v Voda everywhere. Really. This was quite a performance to w. Al a Bonk person wood piece who that's like I knowong may be like ool they rigged There's a rig in there. And they made it like for you like you could smell it. Yeah, you're so sophisticated. This is small town, Ontario But anyways, I don't know, to this day, my family and I have never spoken of it. So I shared it, sorry, I'm being verbos. We shared it. I went for the kill, not strategically, and then I was like, oh no, and everyone else was Who's that girl? Weirdo. And so then I thought, well, that's the end of my career. And then I woke up the next day and just so much rumination. But then writing the book, looking back, I thought, wow, I felt very ashamed. People looked at me weird. I got a lot of this negative feedback. but Those two guys, they became my closest mentors. One of them, Mike Norton, who you've had, he's like my chosen big brother. He came here a couple of years ago for this book and he was there. and it wasn't despite that that we've become close. It's like you were real and not a robot and took a risk and could have gone badly for sure. Yeah Lucked out. So there's lots of moments like that when I started thinking, even the stuff that's really feels TMI often an upside to it that we sometimes don't appreciate in the moment. Yeah, I heard you say that Kind of in general, not much qualifies as oversharing other than online Online, I think is super tricky because it's not like a normal social interaction and then companies all g it to get our data and online is super tough. I'm almost to the point where if you never feel like you cross the line, then you're not doing it enough Right? I don't know if you've had Linda Babcock. She's this amazing economist She studies negotiation. She's written a few books on women and negotiating And she said to me, I remember Carnegie Mellon. she said, Leslie, if you always get what you want, you're not asking for enough. Oh like that. And I think it's the same way with revealing sometimes hitting the TMI we should celebrate because now we know where the bound is. Yeah. We never get there, then we're not doing it enough and we're missing out For the people who are in the world screaming like, why do they got to share that? You know, there's definitely a chorus of people who are like, why do you need your dirty laundry out there? Why you gott to share all that? Let's try to make a steel argument for what it is that you think they're objecting to. I have my theory hit us. I believe that sometes's he That's why I believe have that thought. I have that thought too Say more. Normally I object when there are other people involved in their overshare. And I'm like these other people that are involved do not have the opportunity to speak up. Yeah, that's really annoying. In a lot of memoirs, I think have this tr in your book sharing what's not yours to share. Yeah it's tricky becausecause what's yours and what's not yours. especially when you talk about your family enjoy your family. Its your story. Or your husband or his wife.ally hard. or your exes. These are real people out in the world and I find that Very complicated. I agree. It is very complicated. Even if you hate them, it's your perspective Which I guess well the point. Yeah. let's break it into a defined category. So one would be that type of share where it's just like you're spilling everyone's tea versus I'm owning up to something publicly. That's very shameful. That's a specific category. I think that's the one we would want to encourage. Yeah. And then so within that domain, is there any pattern of when people feel like it's too much the domain of owning up to your Yeah, the good we want where it's like you're just owning your own struggle or your own shortcoming or your own failure. I think there is definitely TMI potential there. I'm thinking, for example, let's say you're going back to work after an absence, health related, let's say it's substance abuse related. You got it all under control now, you're like on the road, but it would be too much to tell everybody all of the gore about it, right? Like That's just not necessary. That's like bringing everyone down. They just need to know that you're doing better, you've addressed the thing and you have the maturity to help yourself and to get the tools you need. That's kind of going into detail about all the ins and outs of the problem. Another one would be this is one Alison, who I know, I actually her book is right behind you. Alison Brooks' book, talkal. Her take is you should never say, if you have to cancel or you have a conflict, you should never give the reason why because that's TMI. because she's like, there's never a reason that's good enough. So you should just say, I can't make it. My take is different. I think that you often should give the answer, but only if the answer is actually a good unassailable answer. My child is sick, That's unassailable. And people understand more and then they empathize with you. But what would be a bad example of that is if it feels selfish or if it feels like you are putting yourself above the other person. and most explanations do that. But there are some like children are an unassailable reason. like everybody knows that of course they take priority no matter what family Family illnesses. Yeah. ye. Another area where it's tricky is when these situations are all situations where you're saying it to a group of people. like that's risky. But if it's one on one, it's so much easier to read the room and you have a relationship with these people who you called up. I think it's very low risk in that sense Stay tuned for more armchair experts. You dare We are supported by All state. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking that your keys are actually in your hand before you close the car door. Have you ever stood in a parking lot full of sun staring at your keys sitting right there on the seat four inches away and completely useless to you. It's a very specific kind of humbling. Yeah Checking first is a good idea. So check All state first for an auto quote. It could save you hundreds. and for fast, reliable help when you need it, add an all state roadside plan today. You're in good hands with All state. 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And you know, I'm a side sleeper I ordered a side sleeper and I get hot, so I have cooling. and I can't tell you how much more comfortable it is to be in there not sweating and tossing and turning. Cooling is really important. I've read that you're supposed to sleep a little bit cold. So I also have cooling. and they have over twenty models, so it's not a one size fits all situation. You just go take their quiz and they match you to what actually works for your body Plus, they've got cooling upgrades, which heading into summer, non negotiable. Truly Go to helelixleep dot com slash armchair for twenty percent off. That's helixleep dot com slash armchair for twenty percent off. Make sure you enter our show name after checkout so they know we sent you Helixleep dot com slash armchair I think what happens a lot of times when someone shares something If you get the sense that it is some kind of indulgent exercise on their part or that there's some manipulation to it. It's looking for sympathy or if it has these outcomes, I think we're kind of good at detecting that In sincerity. Yeah, and that's problematic. We know people that are just addicted to the adrenaline of shock value And I'm on that spectrum somewhere, right? Of course it feels normal to me, but I'm sure for other people, but yes, I get more alive if we're talking about something a little more dangerous Yeah.. I think that makes you human Tking about risky, juicy subjects is just more fun. We pay more attention, We're more dialed in. There's novelty on the other side as well. like you're going to tell me something likely I haven't heard of a version of yet. It's seductive, even. Yeah It'sull of Yeah, yeah. And I think that's the number one when people are like, how do I think about this better? How do I decide what's TMI?'s not do choose what to reveal and what notot. I think the number one thing is knowing your purpose. In your hard hearts, why are you doing this? I think it's more complex question than it seems because it's like how therapy has that annoying feature of keeping every question begs more questions, right?s like what's your purpose? You really have to be brutally honest with yourself to come to the realization that, oh, I'm just doing this because I want status or I want to show up. Yeahight Right. It requires a lot of self awareness to really be that honest with your. And there's likely multiple motivators Right within it. aren't you isolated? Totally conflict. And what we found when people do consider these decisions, these really hard decisions, like do you tell your boss that you have ADHD? You could get accommodation, you could lose your job. Do you tell your kids about your partying ways? Do you tell your spouse about that old fling? Do you tell your spouse you're disappointed them? All these things are like very Unclear whether you should do it or not. And so often we just default to silence. We don't even consider doing it And then when we do, I've found that it's like ninety percent plus of the time when I do say, o, think of something that you're considering. Tell me what you're thinking about. Tell me what's on your mind. ninety percent of the things that people think about are the risks of revealing They're like, oh You know, if I speak up at work because someone didn't credit me for an idea, they'll think I'm petty, it'll ruin their relationship. And that's all real. That's totally valid and legit, but they stop there What about the risks of not sharing? Well, I'm going to ruminate, then I'm going to be passive aggressive. and that's going to be bad for the relationship. So like zooming out is, I think, a really important part of making better decisions. I mean, we've shown it in our research that we fixate on the risks of revealing For lots of reasons about how our brains work, but then if we zoom out, we make different ones. It doesn't mean everything should be revealed for sure not, I think we should reveal a little bit more than we think we should most of the time. And what advice do you have for these different asymmetric relationships or status relationships How does thatat is trick? Workplace is a place of mixed status often. And that's where we need to be crafty because it's tricky. And we need to realize that in any given day, we move up and down the status hierarchy. I mean, when I'm talking to the deean, I'm lower status. When I'm talking to a students, I'm higher status. So like each person, depending moment to moment I When we are in a high status situation, we have so much more leeway than we think And it's so powerful. I'm thinking of, for example, like Angelina Jolie, the op ed, she wrote in the Times on breast cancer and double mastectomy. And after that, so high status person, there was a noticeable uptick in people getting screened. You can do so much good in d stigmatizing things and prompting action if you're high status. And again and again, we've studied this. We've studied people in high status situations saying some of other weaknesses, like CEO's of companies think, my organizational skills aren't the greatest sometimes. They're not saying like, I'm pathologically messy, that's TMI, but going a little bit more. and it makes their employees like them more, be more motivated to work for them, trust them more, it has all these benefits. Like it's kind of obvious talking about it now, but when we ask managers like, what do you say to your new team when you introduce yourself, it's all just like P positive things about themselves. They never share what they're working on. It often doesn't occur to us to do it. Right. We think we got to sell ourselves. Yeah ye ye. And in so many situations, I think it's less selling more curiosity, more question asking. The times when you actually need to sell and persuade are very few and far between in everyday life. And in fact, when youre trying to sell, oftentimes, the way to sell is to not be I was going to say it's also just white noise Yeah. but you're doing the same thing everyone else is doing. Yeah, cut through. Have you studied Popleceive that? So we've studied what are good ways to receive someone's disclosure? There's some really interesting work on that. So like if someone says something really sensitive to you, confides in you, what's a good thing to do? This is why I love what I do. My instinct is often wrong and then I learn from research, oh, I did the exact wrong thing. So my instinct is often like go into fixed mode Right? So if my husband's like this colleague is like such a pain, I'm like, okay, well, let's problem solve. And that's typically not the most useful thing. The most useful thing is validation. is just saying, I hear you, that must be so hard. That guy sounds like a real dick. Just saying less is more. There haveve been neuroscientific studies of this. When you validate someone's feelings Even when they know that you're literally doing this almost performatively, like dracted, even when I know you're doing this, the areas of the brain, the really emotional ones, it's calming for someone to repeat back to you the things that you are feeling, which has so many lessons. like in parenting, I apply that. I have to fight myself. I'm like Go into like a fix mode and then no, no, no, no. Tyler, I know that's so frustrating.. I would feel the same way too. Yeah. I've had a unique experience of just being in AA for so long. I think it's such an abnormal experience to watch people do exactly that all the time. It's all oversharing. It's almost always shameful. and just getting to witness the reaction to that was truly the opposite of what I feared growrowing up. And then it's always met with understanding and forgiveness and all these things. It's a tough sell to people who have not had that experience. We deal with it on the show all the time We deal with publicists who are gatekeepers of actors and the publics will go I could put them on a different show and they won't have to talk about anything. This is a very vulnerable show. We require, I mean, The types of conversations you're gonna probably say something about yourself, right? Reveals necessitates What you want to educate them on, which is a very hard sell is lookook, I've said everything on here I've said I've been molested, I've said, I relapsse. I said I this, I said I cheated on my girlfriend I've said all this stuff, It has not made people repelled by me. I'm an example of the thing you're afraid of. And then also these thousand episodes where people did it and there's never been blowback. There's almost never been blowback And it's very frustrating that that's still the paradigm that you think these things I know repel you to other people and all they do is endear you to other people. So I'm really fascinated by why it works so well. I think there's again, the social primate thing. there's a level of trust that you bestow ono me telling me your secret or something you're ashamed or embarrassed on. Yeah. And then I into it while they trust me And now we're in a trusting relationship and now I feel inclined to reciprocate. And now we really are building something deeper. But then I think there's this other aspect to it that is, I think we are attracted to bravery H, S more As a species. You can just easily figure out why like evolionarily evolionarily, the one that went out and found the new water hole should be celebrated, the one that fought the lion should be celebrated. You know, these acts of courage and bravery, we I think are hardwired to appreciate.. That's why we love these athletes. And I think people immediately recognize bravery You know immediately you can feel it how scary it'd be for you to have said that same thing to yourself and you go, wow, that was really them for You admire them for it. It's attractive. It's courageous. Your intuition and your lived experience is super consistent with the data. You know, I love that I in my job, I get to put people in these kind of absurd decision making scenarios. likeike I trap them and then they the choice they make hopefully if I've designed it well illuminates something about human nature. And so our version of what you just said to show that was this study where what we did was we asked, so imagine you're deciding between two perspective dates. So there's two people you're thinking of dating. You talk to one of them, you ask them I'm laughing because it's a ridiculous question. Have you ever had any STDs?? And they said, o my God, like I have had all of the STDs and even even the undiscovered up. The other person, you ask the same question and they're like, I'm not telling you this contrast we're interested in, might it sometimes be better just say the worst possible thing relative to saliently saying, I'm not doing that. R Yeah. And in fact, it is better to say I've had all the STDs than to just not answer the question. Because our imagination is stronger than reality. What did they have going on that they they can't say. But also then that's a little tricky with boundaries. I agree that if I was on these days, I would also be like, Yikes, if you're not telling me this is something crazy. but I also believe you should be able to say I'm not comfortable answering that I don principled withholder, you would think. And so we did like ridiculous number of studies, you know, a social scientist tinker, tinker, tinker. And we tested like, okay, what if it's like a principled withholder that's like that's an obnoxious question. Still, we hate them. And so I've come to believe that it's something really deep and primal in us that is so rewarding about we're so oriented towards self disclosure. Why? It's social risk. and the social risk, when I do this, I'm showing that I trust you. And then when I do that, then you trust me. And so it's precisely because it's risky that there is reward.. Okay, let's talk about parasocial relationships. Yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Well, first, let's talk about the illusion of reciprocity. Okay. Yeah, I like this. That's at the heart of parasocial relationships. A parasocial relationship being a one sided ofen between people in the media, celebrities, and someone who's not a celebrity, feeling this real sense of emotional connection to the person. the famous person doesn't even know the person's existence. We're so wired towards social relationships, right? And our brains are kind of a little lazy. We take shortcuts. And so most of the relationships we have or at least our brains think that most of them that we have are two sided, but now there's so much more opportunity for one sided with social media, but our brains kind of haven't adapted to that. And so we use this heuristic of like, oh, if I know a lot about them, they must know a lot about me. Yeah. Because up until nineteen hundred, it would have been impossible to know a lot about somebody that didn't also know a lot about you Yeah if you think of like the Caesars, there were parasocial relationships sure there. But the scope of this is just exploded because you have so much access to these people revealing a lot about themselves, which revealing we know makes you feel like you know them and they know you and trust. That's really the accelerant of these relationships. There is something very real about them because there are real feelings involved So there's something really real about them and they can be really helpful in many ways. One simple way we've shown this is where lookook at the people you follow on social media, how well do you know them? And then I asked, how well do they know you? And then I asked, by the way, do any of these people actually follow you? And almost none of them are Yeah actuallyually. But yet The degree to which I think that I know you is super strongly correlated with the degree to which I think you know me. Wait, so people do think it your brain just feels good I know Yeah I know I know so much about this person. You intuitively know and they also know a lot about me Eactly because that's how it has worked for three hundred thousand years. Like one symptom of this is if a fan comes up to you and they like start telling you super P personal stuff As if you're in that's what you do in a relationship. Like I'm sure that's happened to you. I hang out at Cara a lot. What happens? Constant everyvery time. Does it get annoying? No, it's lovely. I I love that. so nice. I love that. They always come and they say thank you, basically. But then, yeah, there always is some vulnerable moment. Like someone gave me this long letter, very personal Yeah stuff And specifically, Monica had a show about freezing eggs in fertility. And so she gets tons of women They're going to tell her of course immediately fertility fertility story. There's a lot and I think we're in a very interesting position because actors have a little bit less of a parasocial relationship because you at least know them as famous. They're like, they're this famous. And you know them from their characters, they've played in charac. They don't reveal the way you two do. Yeah. Yeah, but Dax is this weird hybrid, right? Yes, he's a weird hybrid. You're right. I am not. They got to know me here. We're extremely vulnerable and talking about pooping our pants and talking about tal masturbating. yeah. Lots of stuff, you know. What also happens is they'll come up and be like, oh my go, when you told this story and it's like I can't believe I told that story. Like I am like, oh yeah, you' a little mortified. Yes, becauseuse forgot that everyone's listeninging. It is very weird I also I've been on the other side of parasocial relationships I am currently on the other side of the parasocial relationsall. I'm listening to this podcast. Yeah, these two women that are one degree removed from me in life. Okay. And I'm obsessed them. I'm going back, listening from the beginning, having opinions. and I know, I'm like, oh my God, this is so crazy. What is driving you to do this Well, we've dissected it a little bit. I think part of it's like, oh, they're sisters. I wish I had that. M too. I don't know. You feel like you're involved in that relationship and it's a relationship that's interesting. Yeah. So it's so weird to have experienced And now that we're talking about it here, Do they know I mean, I've been talking about it for a couple of weeks. It's probably gotten back to them. What's the next move No, but I don't want to meet No. So why don't you want to meet them? I think because I've been on the other side of it. Yes. I know that meeting is never good. It's like for what? That might shatter a little bit of this fun thing I've created. The illusion. The illusion? Yes. We differ on this greatly though. You do reaction to the attention. One of the fights we have a lot on here is about she would never date someone that listens to the show Oh, that was my next question for you. Would you ever date a fan? You would not? Not a fan. Someone who listens is one thing, but someone who's an active. Why not? My argument is like that makes sense for an actor who played a een in a movie andone fell love with her and she had perfect.s not her. It's not her. Yeah. It's like, you don't love me. You love this character Monica, if they love you, they love you. Well, do you think they know the real you? That's the thing. They know a version Don't. So for me, if you come in and you love me, well first of all, you can't love me. You do not know me. I guess that's sort of. Did you love Matt Damon? No.. Like I'm smart enough to my. I think you really feel love. F infatuation. I feel yall Exactly. Exactly. I feel infatuation I Do not love Matt Damon. I know love is the space it's earned. It's the space in between two people. It's both ways. So I see what both of you are saying. I think that both spareris are doing my positive ping. Sorry. point I totally see. I validate you but ve a really important thing 're hitting on is you want to get there together. It's like one sided disclosure. This goes back to Arthur Aaron's studies where they had people he grouped people together that didn't know each other and he had them go through a list of thirty six questions that got more and more deep as they went along. And when people did that, they like each other at the end, one of them even so the lore goes, fell in love and got married. The control people, they just talk about small talk. It doesn't work. But then there was another study that what they did was they had Diad one got the same questions as Diad two, but Diad one one fell swooped it So the first person answered all the questions, then the second person answered all the questions. In the other Diad, it was the back and forth. I ask a question, you ask. Exactly back and forth. And it was only the back and forth that made people connect connected and loveved. So it's really like the process of taking this risk together. Now that's not to say, I wouldn't roll it out of the question of Monica being with a fan. I would just think that the fan would have to be cognizant that we need to like start buildu your own share You need to build that. Yeah ye, which I think is ly doable. I think so too. I'm such a romantic. like but I digress. Yeah, I'm in one with somebody I do know. Oh yes, okay. But it's the same because I don't know them the way I am Immersed in his life a parasocial relationship. So mine's David Sederres. Oh I love him. Yeah. I have become like just I can't stop listening every single night to his stuff. I probably for nine months, I've been listening every night, re listening over and over again because again, it's about his sisters, it's about his friends, it's about his husband. It's his life and can see myself so clearly inserting beautifully into he and Amy's breakfast. Like I know I have the same vibe as them and I find the same irreverent shhip funny and I'm not afraid to be gross and dirty. Like there's just all these indicators for me where I'm like, oh, I could really, really thrive in that little trifecta. And I tell Monica really weird thing for me is I am friendly with him. We text. He's been on this show like four or five times. Yeah, but he is not close to me the way I am close to him. He's not listening to the show. Yeah. And so I'm an even trickier spot where it's like I have to figure out whether I pursue this relationship I want with him Or if there's something weird about that, or even if it's even possible, but I'm really enjoying it because it's such a weird feel. Yeah. Like I'm in love with him. Love it. I love him. I want to protect him. I want to just follow him around and make sure he's okay. Yeah, I love him. I love it slash, I'm a little worried about it. Sure. But do you want to act on it or is it just the fantasy? likeike you're here and then it's like It's never going to be what you make it out to be. That's for certain. He's crankier than probably I know and he's maybe more petty than I know. You know, he's more human than I know person. Yeah. alough that is kind of his brand is exposing what a shitty person he is, which is why I love why you love Yeah. Yeah. do know maybe deliver. But for me, it's more about I would love to have that relationship with him. I hope I do somehow, but it has to be achieved in a real way that I'm not pursuing it and he doesn't know how I feel. I am going be reliant on him more than myself. Yeah, I think because I've been in this position a lot, I've had a lot of parasocial relationships and lived in Fantasy Land like my whole life that I've had the bubble pop a lot I've had the opportunity to meet a lot of these people that I had all these fantasies about, and it goes away. The thing you had that like googly eyes goes away. There are some things that I think are fun that just like live in your imagination. Yes, I agree. That does sound though, also like the course of love and relationships and infatuation where the stages of being infatuated with someone and then over time, you see that they scratch their bum and their throat alone. the kind of positive illusions away to an extent. But I like that because that's intimacy. I think this is where again, getting there together is really important because when you build that together, social psychology says this on intimate relationships that then you get these positive illusions as you go along and the positive illusions sustain you a lot longer, I would think if it's this one sided thing that's very kind of artificial in a way. But I say artificial lightly because the feelings are real. and I do think that when people feel lonely during COVID, parasocial interactions were a source of great comfort to people. Stay tuned for more armchair experts There This episode is sponsored by Better Help So Monica, here's something that really stuck with me. BetterHelp's twenty twenty six state of stigma repeport surveyed two thousand Americans and revealed that eighty five percent of Americans believe getting support is wise. Yet seventy four percent say society discourages people from doing so. That's a huge gap. Most of us agree therapy is a good thing, but there's still something holding some people back from actually going Right. And I think that's where just talking about it, normalizing it makes a difference. I mean, as you know, I' I obsessed with thepy I've been in it consistently for years and years and years. and I have said this and I shouldn't say it, but I do think if you're struggling and you've been struggling for a while and you haven't sought therapy, I judge you a little bit. Oh Okay ye. I know what I'm not And I gotta go to therapy to work on that, you know, but also there are options for you. You can help yourself and betteretterHelp makes that first step easier. 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So you and your team can focus on what matters most, which for me is, are they obsessed with maail bodies on the same level as I am? They never are. To learn how to put AI to work for people Visit serviceN. com We get support from Sims. Monica has been on a whole kick lately. I really have. When I get new Sims, it is like Christmas. I get so excited. I love skims and they have skims cotton, which I literally reach for every single day. The fabric is really soft, but it also holds its shape. There's nothing worse Then Sagsville. Exactly. It's really bad.kim's never does that. Every single piece I've gotten from them still looks brand new after a lot of washes, there's no stretching, they lay perfectly and they support in all the right places. You're pretty particular about that stuff too, which is saying something. It is. and I'll just say it, the lightweight cotton thong is the best one I've ever tried I also have their cotton jersey t shirt. I have it in black and I really love it. It is a tight fit, but it is very flattering. Sometimes I don't love a tight fit shirt, but Skims just does everything right. I really don't know what they're doing over there. The t shirt is perfect for summer. It's a great summer shirt, G get yours, shop Skims cotton and all of my favorite pieces at skims dot com d After you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you. Select podcast in the survey and be sure to select Armchare experpert in the dropd down menu that follows All right, so this isn't new Talk about the trapped in the TV effect Oh yeah, so that was one of the first scientific explorations of this or it was talked about in a scientific way is in the fifties, so there was a TV show called L like Ding Dong school or something like this. And there was a woman in it was a kids show, miss Francis, and you know, TV's were novel then, and this was so interesting that this person could talk to you living Looked like she was there. And so what the children started doing is trying to h her bang open or like take apart the TV. They wanted to let her out 'cause they wanted to let her out because they thought she was, I know it was. They thought she was. I know I think it captures this desire someone who is so compelling you just want more of them. But I agree with you that sometimes we should leave it at that. But that's learned. I think that' learned behavior. Yeah Can we talk about the science of connection Yeah, let's do that. I mean, I've written on this sentence. Why are we instinctively drawn to mutual openness and how our brains respond to it even when it comes from a machine? Oh, I love that This colleague of mine, her name is Yang Mi Moon, she did these fascinating studies. I think they were the early two thousands where she had people interact with computers and the computers self disclosed to the person. They'd be like, I have up to one hundred gigahertz RAM capacity, but I rarely get to use my full capacity. They didn't even say I. It wasn't even that personified. It was like this computer, but rarely uses its full capacity. And then people felt attracted and they liked the computer that disclosed to it, which is so fascinating because the hard wiring case, the case for like when something acts like human reveals, then we feel fond of them. The how many movies we have where that's the storyline. We love stories about robots who really have a heart. We've done it thirty times and and they always work. and there's a huge Broadway play right now. Oh yeah, that's's obsessed Yeah. Two robots of phone love. There's this amazing study where they people in brain scanners and they had people answer kind of fun ish trivia questions about themselves. like, what's your favorite ice cream flavor And when people did that, pleasure centers of the brain were activated So it's really suggests that there's something deeply intrinsically reinforcing about self disclosure. And then they did the classic thing to convince the conservative economists that there's something to it. They had people actually they gave them the opportunity to essentially pay money to answer questions about themselves. And people did it. They're like, I'll pay good money to talk about myself. I read in your thing that just asking someone llow questions. Yeah. the power of that. What's happening there? This is now Alison Brooks, my bestie. She's done work on follow up questions as well. Follow up questions are really powerful because they signal that you're listening. and people love to self disclose. It's as we know, intrinsically motivating. And so when you ask me a follow up question It's not just any question. you' first you're showing that you listen to me. So I'm like, oh my go, that's amazing, and you're giving me an opportunity to tell you more about myself. It's amazing. I'm in heaven. And the core to me of why this is so powerful is because Social connections are like we are herd animals and if we don't have them, then we die Yeah, if nobody cares about us, then we're x community. Yeah. in my thirties, I found myself divorced and single again and so I was navigating online dating. and looking back, I realized I did the exact wrong thing to attract a mate in the sense that when I got to the date and if I was like,, not super into this guy, I would just keep asking him questions because I'm like, at least I'll learn something about him. Like I learned about robotic not time three D not and like all these random things that I never knew existed. Were you on academia? I know, that's a really derd, isn't it? No? I actually I did not want to date an academia. That's like a thumbs down. It doesn' a negative in the grandmaster regression equation of my dating life. But yeah, it was the exact wrong thing because then those are the guys that are like She loves me. Yeah. And then by contrast, when I was really into the guy, I'm a very gut person on these kinds of things. When I was really into him, I would find myself selling iting Yeah you're attractive. Yeah. And then fortunately I realized it kind of midway through that I wast doing the wrong thing. But it's interesting how the instincts and like I study this stuff and my intuition was like completely wrong. Yeah, yeah. Okay, what impact does beauty have on a sense of familiarity? Oh my gosh. So we love beautul people Bea We love beautiful people. We do. I know heard If you could choose to beautiful or intelligent, I think they said beauty. ye. I would I find. We gotta use the word hot over beautiful. Just hot be clear. why is that for me. Hot means you wantan to have sex with a person. Okay. Beautiful doesn't necessarily mean that Beautiful means like soul. I can look at a lot of models and go, o, they're beautiful. I don't think they're hot. You want to be someone that everyone wants to have. Why? Be se an approval junkie Yeah, that's the ultimate approval. Why is that the ultimate approval though? Why not you are the most intelligent? I admire your brain. Wh is that the thing for you? Well, because A, it's what I didn't have. We all want what we don't have. Or you felt like you didn't have. By my estimation, no one slept with me becausecause they thought I was happ. But people were sleeping with you though That's what's weird.s not like you weren't getting CBT sash. Yeahah. Right. So Boohoo to me, it still worked out. Yes, I think it's natural for us to identify what we don't have and to covet that. Maybe not. maybe I'm unique. Yeah. It's a spectrum, and I think you're on the far. Paging it? I would pick beautiful over hot. Okay Wh was that C She Jaz hot obbviously No, no, no. No, I think it's more elusive. I think it's terrified air It's harder to be. I think hot is all the parts of you. can Be hot by being confident and having style, having a good personality. like that's beautiful is like physical physically al. You can do' say the opposite. Okay Yeah.. So for me, it's like, well, I got what I got. I hate it. Yeah. So obviously I wish that was, you know what I mean? And again with intelligence, like I have some amount of that. Yeah. So I really care. Yeah. But we have heard from very beautiful people that they want to be seen as intelligent But they don't know what it's like to be Which fits with you always want. you don't The grass is always green, right? Yeah the grass is always green. Yeah Yeah It is so interesting though. with those Oh yeah. yeah, yeah. yeah. Okay. so a friend of mine, Benois Monette, who is also very beautiful. The punchline is Beautiful people feel familiar to us. So when you think of like, why do we feel connected to celebrities? Well, one is now they tell us a lot, we have access. so we feel the thing in our brain of how we can't tell that it's one side and we confuse the two. You know a lot about them. Right. But also they tend to be beautiful, hot. Whichever you prefer. And we actually perceptually view hot people as more familiar. We think they're more familiar. And in one of the studies they did in this paper, they took photos from a Princeton yearbook. They did the study with current Princeton tunes, but it was an old yearbook. They didn't know the people. And then they asked the people, how familiar is this person and the more attractive people were judged to be more familiar. What I know intuitive. Is there any explanation for that? It's just an observation. I mean, do we have any theory on why it triggers familiarity? The explanation, it's something to do with the symmetry of the face, beautiful is more symmetric and it's more fluent to process. The more fluent something is to process, the more familiar. You can ease of processing with familiarity. I'm also going to come at it from a null hypothesis approach, which is distinctive features are novel, which is implicitly not familiar, right? So the more asymmetry not beautiful. Well, let's just say get aassic Yeah. You have asymmetry, all the things that we define the golden rule of beauty, right? You're violating those That's why I would argue that's what is beautiful about people, right? is when they're unique. Yes. It's unique, which is the opposite of familiar Yes, ye, rightight Are you saying that because it's unique, it should stand out and be memorable? Well, I'm just saying because it's unique, it's in opposition to familiarity. Yeah ye. Yeah you recognize this is the first time I'm seeing this That's the opposite of familiar. Exactly. Whereas if nothing's triggered, you don't file into a new thing. Yeah so it's familiar. Eactly. You're told to like draw a picture of a man. Yeah, That's what you're gonna draw. You're just gonna to draw like a very standard something. And then if a beautiful person probably matches that standard you draw symmetrically here you attempt. Exactly. Yeah. This is a zone that no one will like When I've seen really hard movements and pushes to redefine beauty, which on the surface is wonderful and e egtarian and all these things Why I've bristled is I feel like there's some dishonesty in that. At the end of the day, no matter what you say or who you put on billboards, when you do these tests and you just show faces of people, symmetry is symmetry. There's something fucked up in our brain that values that.' you can ad campaign your way out of that. And it feels dishonest in its's person interestnteresting. As opposed to working on like, how do we all deal with that we don't look like Brett Pitt? That seems more productive. Yeah. How do we come to terms with guuess what? you are not symmetrical? I guess it's a little confusing because you did also just say what you find attractive is uniqueness. And I think a lot of people do actually find unique features attractive or like Oh, that's interesting and intriguing. Right. So that's the opposite of what. That's true. Yeah, so for me personally, I might have my taste. But I think a lot of people find, I mean, everyone likes Matt Boomer Okay, everyveryone looks at his face and is like, Yeah, he's classic. Cassically beautiful. no one's gonna object. Exactly.. And I'm not saying we shouldn't put him on a billboard. We should. But also I don't think putting oh God, I shouldn't say I'm we Yeah we putting that person on a billboard who has unique you. But I think I'd be the first to say. it's like, yes, I am attracted to that uniqueness and fingerprinting and I can acknowledge. I know that's not going to be the most broadly appealing. I can acknowledge the reality of it. I happen to find the Greek nose so hot. That's not going to get adopted by everybody, right? Yeah. So two things are happening. One is my personal preferences and then also I can acknowledge that if you put up these two faces and you poull all of America, this person's gonna get the win although maybe there's just so much paste for uniqueness that It's not disingenuous that there is a segment the population that likes Greek noses. Oh. In that sense it would be what consumers demand. It wouldn't be disingenuous. I think one of the things I was reacting to in my mind, that I bristled against, the feeling of you're being like gaslit as a consumer that it's like O campaign. That's what I mean. It's like, no, symmetry is objectively beautiful. like we can agree do this in a genuine way, market someone who is not classically beautiful. I do too. Yeah. donon't tell people that they can't like this symmetrical person. We're gonna like it. I just feel placated or something. It's interesting. Although, yes and no, because sometimes when you see like the most beautiful person ever wearing like sunglasses on a billboard, it's like, I'm not going to put those sunglasses on and look like that. It's a lie. For sure. Yeah. Now we're talking about what categories. Some categories you don't want aspirational. You want Oh I see myself in that person. I would want to use that product. And guess what people that are beautiful in quotes or how it's defined. They have a different experience on planet Earth. That's worth us knowing about. So interesting. So think about this, Aah, if you're beautiful and everyone feels more familiar with you. Yeah, what enormous advantages are there? the advantage of being beautiful, the social benefits, which is that people are nicer to you, they smile to you. And I think that's also not just bestowed on people that are beautiful, but also bestowed on famous people on celebrities. People that are beautiful can Talk at a different pace. Y patience to listen to them is higher because you're very engaged and activated just by what you're seeing very. Right. It's stimulating is true. It's stimulating. Normally you need the conversation to provide all the stimuli, but this face is doing a lot of the liftting. Don't you think after five minutes you get adapted to that? I just think it runs out. People say this all the time. like, Oh my God, that's a great point. That girl can get cheated on. I've heard this so manyany times know I thereit of peopleing She's the most beautiful person in the world. How could anyone cheat on her? You adapt to people's faces? Yeah. I think this may be an area where there's huge individual differences. For me, I'm just thinking my first marriage, great guy, amazing person. I never had the like, I wan to rip Like And I felt ashamed of that for a long time because he was he is such a wonderful person. Deserved that. Yeah. Yeah yeah, yeah yeah. And then I found myself dating again and then I realized, oh no, I should just listen to what I really and that's call me shallow, but it's you know really imply to me. I see my husband. I've been married for eight years and I'm like You are so that's not b. And that's important to me. I wish it wasn't important to me. L I really wish it wasn't. You're being honest. Here's what Ia, Yes, if you were forced to be dishonest in pursuit of this principle you have that to me is not a principle. And that's why if I had only been able to be honest with myself Okay, it's fine. This is how I'm buildilt. This is the way I am. but instead I, you know, lots of reasons. I will not invoke other people, but I didn't learn that or I didn't acknowledge that about myself. You're not telling me and I already know what it is. Yeah, exactly. You're an overachieved childood And this is a good match and this is a good good, good good good st, good good. Yes Yeah and so on and other things. Well, that was fun. Yeah. I enjoyed all this. I do encourage people to get your book revealing the underrated power of oversharing as a big proponent of oversharing a cose sign on this book. Dr. Leslie John, thank you so much.. We hope you enjoyed this episode. Butfortunately they made some mistakes. Bring everyone up to speed. You want coffee, You've been staying up too late. quired why, what's going on? I'm down another rabbit hole Um ome cooking videos. Okay. Not Alison. She hasn't put up any new ones lately. But I am watching What's Gabby cooking? What's that She is a woman Wh pereriod She That's her unique offering. No she like she's a cook and she does videos and is very popular and she does her Yeah, I don't know if she still does them. I assume she does. These Instagram lives on Monday. So like you can like watch and kind of cook with along with her, which is cool. Is it more exciting knowing it's live? Like do you think that's playing into the notion of like, Oh yeah. I'm sure that's Yeah, I bet people love that. Yeah but So but then you just put them on Instagram you know, like your old ones or Yeah. Yeah, they live And so I started watching those. and they're like thirty minutes Thataking dinner in like a thirty to forty minute. Yeah, that's what's kind of cool. It's like he's making it fast. Yeah Heat and serve basically I know And you'll watch a ton of them Exactly. And then I'm like, o no, it's one. And you're having the same pull towards it as if you were watching a great series and the cliffhanger ending ends and you look at the clock and you're like, I cannot start this. and then you're like, well, I got him fing know five minutes of Is that strong? Yes. and we've discussed that currently I Well not currently, but yeah, I have been listening to Erin and Sarah's podcast in a kind of crazy manner. And now this is similar. So yeah, I mean I'm probably, you know, I'm coping. Yeah with something, but I've nothing to heal right now. So I don't really know what it is, but I'm definitely in a like Eescapist zone Mhm So Interesting. Soby you know hunches O do want I was I was really thinking like What feeling am I trying to avoid? I mean that's too generic. It's not that simple. Yeah. I don't think it'll be thatple. I don' think need to be that I I don't know, maybe it's the itch for summer. I'm just like really ready to get there. I'll make an argument. Great. So we're working crazy this time of year always for us is the hardest time of the year because we're trying to build up enough of a stockpile that we can take a summer vacation. Yeah. And always, I gotta say you know, it's we've been doing this for years now. it's always hard May June. Yeah. This one's going okay for me, but You know, I don't know if this is good or bad behind the curtain, but it's like we did ten this week, right? So we're doing two a day. Thty fact checks. thirteen recordings a lot So I know that I have been searching comfort in the evening. Just like I feel like, okay From these hours, you got to be on Yeah and you got you got to push hard. And then when I'm off, I'm like, okay, I'm even making deals with myself like maybe that's going on with you where I'm like, yeah, whatever I have to do at night fine, I just got to kind of get through to the finish line You know, whateverver I need to do. I guess. I mean maybe it's out although The Aaron and Sarah thing' been going on for a while. so I don't know I don't know what that is otherther than what we I discussed maybe like a want for a sister.. But okay, but I have recently been thinking like Is something wrong with me? Do I need to get my blood work done? What's going on that I like in the morning, I feel three thousand pounds As in like, I can the idea of lifting this body and getting it out of bed feels like requires G in strength ' so this is this is clue number two though because now we got we got sleep disruption we got slving you know, and then we got we can't get out of bed in the morning. I think it's all the same it's all connected though. It's like, I'm going to bed very late. So actually in the morning, like I am still tired. I should be sleeping still. You're getting less than eight? I don't know. and I don't know what the quality of sleep. Oh, I had a I had a horrible dream a couple nights ago that was like V and you were in it You were a bad guy in it. And you had a Brad Pitt sex dream. so they're all over the map. It's like the best dream you've ever had in the worst. It was not the best I've ever had. in my dream. I didn't mean to insult you. You don't know about. I don't know about your dream.. But it was a horrible nightmare that included all of us, but I was like on the run in the dream and so it was So ight It was so heightened And Then in the morning of course, I was like, I mean, how good could I have slept if that's what was happening in my b a fighter flight all night. Yeah. exactly. Yeah, doesn't seem restful Yeah. and so then I had the idea to keep my curtains open. Okay so that I would wake up naturally by the light. All right And I was like, that might solve my issue. Yeah. And it kind of did. Cool. But you gotta get up really early. Exactly. Then I was like, oh, I like woke up And I looked as Cg was five. Well, that's the problem now that we're in summer because I wake up at six twenty And yeah, I gota have everything shut in my room airtight because the sun's out for an hour already by six hundred twenty. It was five and I was like, well, I'm not doing this. Yeah. So then I tried to go back to sleep with the blind or with the curtains open, but then I just closed them and then we're back in the same situation. Yeah. So there's just, you know, I'm just I need to clean up my sleep hygiene Not as I'm going into summer and traveling. It doesn't make sense. You don't need to do that. Yeah. This was my share on Tuesday night. Oh, great. This occurred to me while I was riding to my meeting Which is I haven't talked about our leakings, right? No, you did. I did. Yeah, because remember I had a huge catastrophe and then you had you had that same day at. And I can't I'm not sure at the time of that recording how many we had at that point, but it was it was one in Kristen's office while we were in Nashville get home twow at the same time twoo different air conditioned coil boxes. here. Then got it fixed, then broke again, another night of rain. I've had three nights of getting wokke up at three in the morning with the family going, It's raining in the downstairs bedroom whichich blows with our schedu, right? That's like, it's not the time I need to be up for an hour. Okay. Then yesterday we have this in the wall water dispenser that filters the water. Yeah. So that thing two nights ago that shit out at one in the morning and started flooding the kitchen. What? But crazy enough, I bought little alarms that go off when there's water. So they were hearing the alarms downstairs thinking a neighbor's like alarm system was going up. but finally Thank goodness Linkoln was like, I'm too freaked out to sleep downstairs with a neighbor's alarm going up. Like arere there biggy men on the ground? You know, are there So they all moved upstairs and when they moved, they realized the kitchen was floody. Okay, so that's five pretty major leaks in like a week. It's like we have a water poloultergeice And they're from all different things. It's not like one thing, right that ties all these together. loves water so I'm Riding to my meane and It occurs to me I'm completely fine with this. Okay. It's been challenging. Yeah. But I haven't had that I'm overwhelmed. what the fuck is wrong with this house? I'm mad at contractors, what this house isn't even old. Like I'm not going down You're not angry. I'm not angry. Yeah I'm not going specifically down the road of like, I've been fucked. Yeah, Right? which you're not taking a person Right. Yeah. But occasionally you get frustrated with The work that's done that you paid a lot of money for, like you can I can start building up this sce It was like, my God, you know, and he charged me four times what And it's fucking nothing, you know So that that can happen to me and does sometimes. but I was just clocking like that didn't happen at all. Yeah. They'd just been like It's that. Yeahah, that's annoying. Let's get it fixed. And then also, you know, I have got like Untold disasters happened in Nashville with my busoss and all kinds of stuff So normally this stuff would really stress me out and it would also I would start getting really resentful at people and things and whatever. And it's really, really fine. And I just realize like, A, sometimes chemically, I don't know why. There's nothing different. Whatever reason my biochemistry at that time makes me susceptible to that. Yeah What I really think it's about for me is When my self esteem is high Nothing really bothers me. And when my self esteem is low, Everything's a personal attack. I'm a victim. I am prone to self pity The world's conspiring against me. How many leaks could I get? You know, like And it's just self esteem Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, but for me, it's just self esteem. Like my self esteem governs exactly how I'm going to do with the world Your self esteem, I feel like, then is tenuous. It is. I have to I have to fill myself . It doesn't happen on its own. So it just so happens that like I've got lots of graduations going. I've I've been attending a lot of things. I've been taking the girls everywhere. Like I've been so of service to them. They've been a full time job. I'm here working around the clock Yeah. That gives me a steam The kids give me esteem. I've been like of service. and yeah, my cups filled. I like who I am this week She iss always up for debate. Sure. That makes sense. Yeah. And I was just like, oh yeah, these things that feel objective like objectively you'd be angry right now or objectively you'd be annoyed or objectively you should be pissed That's just not true. Right. I could Well, there's no objectively you should be angry ever. But when you're upset about all these things, you have a really good court case in your head that you're convincing yourself like, yeah, well, anybody right now would be completely annoyed. and agitated and irritable. Yeah But I just noticice like, oh, I'm not at all. Yeah Why is that? Oh, it's this. I feel generally about myself. Purpose is Yeah important, obviously. It's just interesting like you For me and not for anyone else, but for me when I'm thinking about trying to tackle the issues that are giving me dz I'd be inclined to confront those things, the leaks that this and it's not the happ. It's like if I just fill up this other cup, I actually won't that much about That'll be like, oh yeah, that's life. It's just Yeahah, exactly. thingsings happen. It's inconvenient. but that's it. Nothing personal' is going on. Deinitely. I'm not being targeted Yeah. interesteresting. Stay tuned for more arm chair experts If you dare We get support from zip Recruitero get recruited in I'm constantly looking for ways to call back time in my day. I've got the meal prepp dial, the grocery delivery locked in, the whole morning routine down to a science. We all have our own time saving hacks for everyday life, but if you're a business owner, how can you save time hiring? Zip Recruiter. They have a new feature that quickly shows you the most interested, qualified candidates first So you're not buried in a pile of applications from people who aren't even the right fit. Their matching technology is seriously powerful, and candidates can actually explain in their own words why they're interested in your job. That context up frront saves so much back and forth. There's a reason they're the number one rated hiring site on G two. Save time and meet great candidates sooner with Zip Recruiter fourour out of five employers who post on Zip Recruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free at ziprecruiter. com slash staxs. That's ziprecruiter d. com slash stackax. Meet your match on Zip Recruiter. Okay, I've been wanting to share this for a minute. Oh, share. whichich is I think I came up with a banger Only because my kids now sing it non stop. Okay. Okay. okay it requires a little bit of a story, which is and I think people already know that I have reframed in my life that I am Tom Hardy in Mobland now Where I'm Tom Hardy in the show M. am. You are? I am in my mind. Oh in your mind. It started with that box that was stolen, the recycling box that was stolen by a homeless person, and I had to go find it. Oh, that was a long time ago. That was a long time Since then, I've been applying this framing to anything I have to do for my wife Okay. In the past, if she were to have left me like a list of things to do, I would have been well, I have been so triggered. I'll go like, I'm not your assistant. you can't leave me a list, right? Like that was a big thing for me. Got it gotot it And once I clicked into this Tom Hardy thing, which is like, oh, no, I'm just a fixer. And I take like pride in that. So I don't know, two weekends ago, I had to meet them somewhere, but she said, hey beforefore you leave, since you're leaving later, will you do X, Y and Z? in Z was go get all the packages. Oh, o. Okay. So I had gone through the first couple little tasks. And I like knew I was about to knock out the third one And then I somehow the song just came into my head.. Okay I might have to practice once so it sounds good before. Y I mean, I really I should do this I My mission should I choose to accept is to get the packages from the load in dock. Now my mission should I choose to accept is to get the packages from the load in dock. My mission should I choose to accept is to get the packages from the load in dock. My mission should I choose. So o that's the song. That's my song. My mission should I choose to accept is to get the packages from the load dock And when I framed it, which is like I'm mission impossible. they've given me the mission. I get to accept it or not. So I have some autonomy, right? But my mission should I choose to accept is to get the packages from the loading dock Yeah. So I go out and I get all these packages from the loading dock and then I'm singing the song and I'm feeling like really good about the song right And then I send a voice memo of the song to them wherever they're at. Okay cool And then I have this moment of I think humility where I go This is crazy. Look at you. You need to create a song around it. You did a little tiny thing. and then now you wantna share the song so that they will laugh at you And then all of a sudden this song popped into my head, which is also a banger, you ready? Okay I realized this is how I was acting I'm I'm the cutest little boy ever made, watch me jump, watch me play. I'm the cutest little boy ever made, watch me jump, watch me play. You w watch me sing so you're not gonna watch me jump and play.ways, those are my two bangers. I watch you jump and play all day long. You do watch me jump and play all day long. Those were my two songs and I have a lot of songs Yeah, I have a lot of songs about my perm Beause my hair is getting so crazy and it's. It's so curly now, which is really weird. My hair was always straight as an arrow. And now as an old man, my hair's curly. Okay. Maybe just people like the whole visit, my mother was here. She's just like, I't where did your hair get so curly? I haven't noticed it once being curly but I'm not verybserv G your ring a hat Yeah. so I sing a lot of songs about encouraging people. It's okay. You can look at my perm It's a really nice perm. goo ahead and look at my perm. So there's probably four or five songs about my perm. Okay. So anyways, I guess this's all leading up to, I do think I have about thirty songs sent as voice memos And I'm gonna start shopping them in Nashville. Oh, you're gonna go down the streets and get into those clubs. No, I don't want to get in clubs. I want to offer to sell this like you know, maybe Chris Stapleton. I know he writes his own songs, but maybe'd like to sing on You got to get yourself into the clubs and you sing them and then they like that and then they buy it and stuff. No, I'm gonna go to the publishers and say, can I have a writing session? shortcut the system Shanayah Twain. You're gonna to have to go to Bluebird Cfe. I' going gonna go to them and go, okay, I have sixty three songs, but don't worry. it's only eight minutes, all cumulative. And do you want to work on any of these seeds of ideas Yeah Yeah. I respect ye. I respect the ambition Yeah m and I I hope it I hope it goes well. Can you imagine me in one of those places singing my mission? I kind of reallyion should I choose to accept dispp Cause you also had an idea of the other. I had another idea for what? You had an idea the other day that was interesting that was a performance Pace of you redoing some other people's stand upps. Let's get the commenters to say about this idea ide My idea is to tour the country. In every city I'm in, I will have learned a different standups entire routine. Right It started with Dane Cook Yeah because we talked about sports chaleet in the backyard. you me and A That's right. And I immediately heard sport challlet take it to the lim. It was a rocin song. Anyime you hear spports challlet, everyone hears that. So De Cook had a big bit about it. Right, which I didn't know, but. And then that made me think, Oh, I want to go do that on stage. And so I think my first show will be doing Dan Cooks one of his specials just across the board. And I'll do my hair like him. I know It's going to be hard when I do Chappelle and yes. No. I got to honor them And so it's gonna be hard when I do Chris Rock and Shap. You're not allowed to do any of those things. It's an art installation disgust. You need to get your feet I think you need to touch grass for just just like eight minutes or something. as long as it takes to sing your sixty five songs. So Mica thinks it's a terrible idea, but let me just in the comments if if I came to your town to do U you know, Shill likely illegal, but ye, there's be going to be some copyright issues and there'll be some lawsuits, but it's worth it. Okay. But I could I think there could be a u P law here I might be able to get away with this infringement.. Okay, but I'll be doing Shane. If you want me to come to your town and do Shane Gillis's beautiful dogs from beginning to end I would prefer and it's okay because I think it's gonna take you a long time to do this like memorizing. I imagine how long it would take to learn an entire stand up routine. So I would prefer this happens post retirement for you. Okay when I'm not associated? Yeah. Okay. because you think it's really sure It's really what would be the worst? I find it, oh man, I find it bad on so many le. tell me all the levels. It's like lazy. There's something like so lazy about it. You would agree, it's not lazy. It would take so much effort to do that. No, but it's lazy in that you're telling somebody else's jokes And I just can't I mean, if I can't get on board. If I toured only as Dane Cook, that would be lazy. But if every city I've got to learn a new, fully new routine, that's the opposite of lazy. That's way harder than having a routine you do in each city. No, that's like it's not lazy in the fact that you're spending effort memorizing, but it's a lazy Comedian It's just repeating other people's literally. Not even under a guise. like not even taking a joke and like making it your own, which also I don't think is right. It's just I think it's like the famous piece of art that's just white. Yeah, I fucking hate that. Yeah, you hate that. So it's in keeping, you know. It feels yeah, it feels taken advantage of. It feels illegal first and foremost And yeah, there' musicians, no problem. You go play other people's songs, no problem. Covers That is true. So And we remake movies Yeah and psycho is done shot for shot Well, but what do you mean? The original psycha was remade with Vince Vaugh and Gus Vancant and they did it shot for shot. is the exact same movie.. I'm sure U, you know, I love Gus Van ant. Yeah Anyway, again, I'm fine with you I can't stop you from doing anything you want to do in this life. I can just urge you not to do it and then just maybe do it like. a lot. Very sincere question. Yeah. Would it make you extremely angry? If I did do this and it was heralded as this really brilliant idea and people were blown away with how well I was mimicking each person and everyone loved the experience and like the New York Times looved it wouldould it piss you off? It would That's a good question. Like I was the toast of the town for this Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Because, because It's like this is enough I guess that's sort of like that's how I would look at like this is a I disagree. This task is insanely hard. No, like I just like You think you could do it. Yeahep If I wanted to do it, I could do it. Oh, you did. I think actually You already did it? I've already done it. No, no, no. I think a lot of could do it And That's the difference between being someone who just mimics somebody or replicates them Wors for work. versus comes up with the stuff themselves. Also, you could just call the stuff yourself. you're smart enough. Of course I could. I've already done stand upp. I've already written my own standup. R. So then just go take that out. Yeah, But that's not a novel and interesting idea to me. Of course But it it is what's novel and interesting because it'd be brand new It is indeed novel. This is actually not novel because you're repeating somebody else's st. I mean we could really get in the weeds about novel, but once you've written your routine, you did it once, it's not novel. You're just touring the country doing the exact same forty five minutes every night. No, but I know, but coming up with the special The first time it's heard new material. Yeah, the first time it's heard, it's new for sure. It's new in the whole world. It's new together. But you know what If everyone loves it, they can love it. Everyone gets to love what they love. Yeah. I'm still not gonna love it though. Yeah. And that's great. Oh, okay, I do want to bring this up really quickly. Do a house clean? That sound like house cleaning It's a callback. Okay. So today, I'm going to Eizabeth and And' Back to the scene of the crime. Or where you needed to use the toilet? Yeah. And it's a very similar situation Ver similar time of day. Well, exact same time of day. There will be dinner I'm not exactly sure if Majang is happening, but maybe and it's almost exactly one month ago. So your PMS I mean, you're it's like menstrual. It could be rightbling It could be burbling right now ready for another tryry at this gathering the troops, preparing for the invasion. Yeah, and and it could also be like cm like the world being like, what are you going to do this time ool me want shame on you. Exactly.. What are you gonna do? I know. I don't know. You're gonna go in their bathroom. Yeah. Yeah, good girl But should maybe I should bring some matches today Okay, yeah, or a trash bag for your car. I I know what I I didn't want to do that because I hope something goes sideways because we have a guest tomorrow that will love that. If we got a hot one fresh off the presses the guest we have tomorrow will fucking flip out. You know, one person did validate me that the car was kind of a good idea O. What one person, yeah. Also a virgo Okay, so that's a friend? Yeah. Okay She was like, Iy Yeah. Wow, ye Yeah. Did she not have a nice car? Mbe she's picturinging her like old caravan, which is great for shitting in, but she lives in New York Well she't even doesn't drive a car. She's imaginine shitting in a taxicab, which is totally fine and encouraged I didn't even Like you wouldn't even try to hold it a taxi. No, off course I would. O course I would. That's again, public. This is the same situation. I know. But people have a You get in the cab and there's a different culture inside the cab. You peopleople fucking cabs or doing drugs in the back. Like you just go like tough shit, we all live in this city. Like there's you know, you would agree. there's a different They're also pretty They're doing their own thing by the way, driving is is there's a lot going on. Yeah. I mean to you. They're mean to you And also nearly one hundred percent of the time they are talking to somebody O on speaker phone as loud as humanly possible. Al. Yeah. And good for them Yeah sure.. Yeah, like you said, part of the culture but I really don't like that when it happens in an Uber Like, if you werere in the back, like this guy's up there fucking You know, he's in this really heated shouting match. literally I've been in many this is a shouting match. swearing If he's engaged in that and then all of a sudden he's like, Dh, did you D you Yeah, I did. go back to your fucking phone call, right? Like it's already an adversarial relationship. You fking go back to your phone call, dude. You're the one that's king on' so rude. You're being so rude. I didn't even have to go until I heard you yelling up there. You scared me. I know. You're scaring me. Yeah Do you have mean toilet paper? They're driving me like this? Do have toilet pap in your car? 'Ccauseuse out of fear. You me. They sometimes yell at me and I don't like it. Yeah, ye they're me. And like if you're doing something, if they think you're doing something wrong on the like pay. They're just always annoyed. Yeah. They're really upset with. So annoyed with the passengers. That's kind of cool. I might be that way. I don't know. I'll find out when I don've really I be nice to people. I don't know what I'm saying is I' never done the job. I don't know if it's way more annoying than I think. Oh, it's gonna be so annoying.. you be rolling your eyes to roll out of your head. That's why I would I would never do it. I couldn't do it.. I couldn't do that job. T T many annoying people. Id probablyt know if I within a one week shift. Yeah. Right someomeone would get in and really treat me shitty. Yeah. Yeah I would be like Now for the record, I'm really nice to all Would you play in the back of your cab your movies? My own movies. Yeah. Oh if I was the driver. Yeah. Oh that would be Yeah and then they're like hack into that little seeee, pref I prefer this as your art installation. You do driving a cab with my own movies point. Yeah. And then there's like hidden cameras where we watch people like pututting two and two together what's going on. This guy it seems like that this guy was in a movie Now he's yelling at his friend and fucking Exactly Eine. Exactly, exactly. I think that would be very interesting. Okay Okay, well let's do some facts. Love to Leslie Jobs Um There are so few facts for Leslie. Oh really? Yeah. Okay. So no facts. No, there's one. Okay. Is it about periods Now in the things that cause diarrhee. Yeah brring that fact in. Oh sure. yeah Yeah, let's just say so. No, it is the Broadway play about the robots who fall in love Oh my family loves this play. Have you seen it? I have not seen it, but I have many friends who love it. It's called Maybe Happy Ending Maybe happy ending. Have you heard the music Why would you? Of course, my family, since they saw it and they love it, they got the soundtrack and I've heard it a lot. And it's a very sweet, cute soundtrack You know, it's about two robots that far. I know, we love robots here We love it. It's set in near future Soul Korea The musllow The musical follows Oliver and Claire, robots who have been abandoned by their human owners and are nearing the end of their operational lives. Oh no. That's so sad.. I don't want to see this God When Claire asks Oliver to borrow his battery charger, the two outcast strike up a unique friendship Eventually embarking on a road trip that tests their programming and leads to an unexpected romance. Oh my Godd, that's so cute. Okay. now she said, okay, this was interesting. The trapped in the TV effect. That's a parasocial relationship Trapped in the what? Trapped in the TV effect. Oh, yeah, yeah from the fifties. Yeah, where kids were trying to liberate the and get the P news anchor. I That is so funny and I wanted to find the if there was like a specific show, but I'm not hiding that. Do think they wanted to let them out becausecause they were trapped or they wanted to let him out to play with them? I kind of think That mered? Yeah I don't know if it was saving them or just like, I want to hang out with them. I like the kids. There's often with little kids, there's aw concept they're late to grasp Mine was size My mom tells this story all the time. She would hear like Okay And she would hear me grunting in my room She's like, what is he doing? Is he like pooping his pants? Like what's going on Every time she would peek into my bedroom,