Religion as a Human Gymnasium

Hi everybody Welcome to a new episode of Askhaviv anythingything Dr. Mika Goodman has been on before. He's a friend. He's my former Monities professor. He's an influential public intellectual in Israel. He's a research fellow at the Kogod Research Center at the Shalom Hartman Institute in Jerusalem. He's the author of multiple bestselling books, I think seven at last count And he spent the last At least a year talking about AI I've been listening to his podcast, Michlegeta Machchaavot in Hebrew, which is the party of ideas, party in the sense of political party whereere each season they discuss a different major topic. It's a fascinating Israeli intellectual podcast that Miah does together with E Fracha Pira Rosenberg, and it's produced by the Jerusalem cultural inststitution, educational institution called beta Vii And as I said, this season has been all about AI. what Mika has done in Hebrew over there is to create a kind of introduction to the great quandaries posed by this new technology, the vast dangers, the enormous potential benefits they're too great to ignore and his central claim, which we will interrogate as the kids say is that this is a revolution. This is the end of what was and the beginning of something profoundly new and different It is beyond even a revolution. It's what he refers to borrows from some other thinkers to call a singularity In physics, for example, a singularity is the theoretical point of Infinite mass at the center of the black hole. may or may not exist. That's not something that is fully understood, but it's a mathematical end result of the calculations that describe what happens to matter when it falls into a black hole But a singularity isn't literally a point. It's something much more interesting than that. It's the place where The rules break down and we can't see beyond it. because we can't extrapolate from the current rules that we're living in to what there is on the other side of that singularity We can't get information. from what lies beyond a singularity. It's the idea of a fundamental breakdown and transformation That's the scale of the change that AI might just represent for humanity We're going to take advantage of Mika's extraordinary English to bring a piece of the conversation in Israel on AI Welome to this podcast, you may be surprised to learn or maybe not that that conversation in Hebrew in Israel is rich and expansive I think more than in the English speaking popular press that I have seen, not the professional press, but the popular press And we're going to bring that to the podcast today. We often tread a lot of the same ground on this podcast on the topics that are the core interest of this podcast. So it's nice to take a breather and tackle something very different and very, very significant for this moment this was recorded a little bit ago so we're going recording of the actual conversation and do that in a moment before we get into it I want to tell you this podcast is sponsored by Peter Fine. who asked to dedicate the episode to my three children, Sarah, Robbie, and Katie All children of Israel, who God willing will soon beget. their own children of Israel Lovers of family, fun and all things Jewish They seem to have absorbed the primary lessons of being Jewish. Keep the historical chain of our people. Keep it going. and take joy in being Jewish I'm very proud of the people they have turned out to be I hope they find in the As Hy of Anthing podcast learning and insight into their history as Jewish people The history of our cousins in Israel and some insight and language to understand the increasing complexity of living in a world a doesn't seem to understand us and needs us to explain ourselves in a forthright, intelligent way. The podcast helps me and I think will help them in the acquisition of these insights and language Thank you, Peter, for that beautiful dedication In the end, it's all about the kids. What else would it ever be about I also want to invite you all to join our Patreon, suubbscribe to our sububstack. If you want to ask the questions that guide the topics that we talk about on this podcast, That's where you do it. You also get to take party monthly live streams where I answer your questions live. That's at patreon d. com slash Ashaviv anythingthing or Kaviv Gur ot sububstack. com. Those links are in the show notes and now to our original recording Mia, how are you? Very curious Let's start at the very beginning There's so much. I mean, we've been laughing at this, we've talked three times ahead of this episode because we have no idea where to begin So let's just begin at the beginning AI terrifies people. You know, every once in a while we hear some Sam Altman type or Elon Musk type, all these people at the forefront of AI building it out, funding this thing saying that it might destroy humanity. Probably not. probablyrobably not Maybe. and Everybody wants it Everybody wants it. I first of all, Google search has become useless. and so I just chat GPT or Gemini everything. that I actually need to look up U It's helped me to fact check. I fact check myself. The problem with AI is it hallucinates. so you can never believe the AI. but if you prompt it and demand from it a link to a source you do believe, then you can do really significant fact checking. Everybody has it. It's an app on my phone. it's an app on everybody's phones What are the dangers? Why is it so terrifying? What are the benefits? Why is it does everyone beg for it. Computer programmers are programming with it everywhere and also getting fired because companies think they don't need as many programmers anymore Can you the table for us. so we know even what it is, what the parameters are of the conversation The dangers, the benefits One of the problems that blocks our ability to understand what this is of how to think about it and how to feel about it. is that we call it technology This is another tool And it's not Kavif I don't know you how to call it. It's not technology because it's the reversal of everything we ever knew about the relationship between human creativity and technology. Usually the history of humanity is about human beings using their intelligence usually collectively in order to create tools and ideas. And the combination of those two create technology So the history of human innovation is intelligence creating technology. What is AI It's technology that creates intelligence. Now how mind blowing is that technology. we always use intelligence to create technology Now we're trying to create technology that creates intelligence. Now what the hell is that? Now, since intntelligence is everything I mean, What do you mean Intelligence. I'm just looking the microphone that you're talking to. That's the fruit of intelligence. This conversation is supposed to be the fruit of intelligence table the table that this microphone is on is alsoell everything is intelligence. The clothes that were designed by someone, everything is intelligence. So if intelligence intntelligence broke apart the food chain, put us out of it and reordered it completelyerve us. So if we look at the nature of a soap, so net soap to understand, this is not what can this tool do. This is about what intelligence could do, right? So let's think about the nature of intelligence in order to understand this weird thing. L I mean a way to think about what's happening now in Silicon Valley is that you have factories producing intelligence Okay, wait, one second. that is I want to understand what that means and where you want to take it and I have some sense from listening to the podcast. but How intelligent is it Is it intelligent? Is it faking intelligent? Not even sentient or conscious. These are words with the definitions break down. We are all trapped in the way Alan Turing defined this in nineteen fifty And as far as Alan he says When we use the word intelligence, it always creates a connotation of something that's conscious. something that thinks and feels like when we say intelligence, that's not what we mean when we say intntelligence and those two words artificial intelligence. It's the way Alan tankays, if it has, if it's functionally intelligent If it has the impact of intelligence, Dura I mean, strip from the question if there's someone inside, if there's someone thinking inside, feeling inside. so it's intelligent the faming the famous toururing test if you have If you have a computer behind the veil and you have a person behind the veil and you're writing and you're communicating with both and you can't tell the difference it passes the turing test. as far as that's concerned, if it's a display of intelligence We treat it as intelligence. So that's what So that's that's that's what it means. And this industry is trying to make it more and more Intelligence, more and more functionally intelligence. That's what we mean and And um Agnostic of any other question of what's going in there inside, if there's anyone at home. Agnostic of that. that's so we're all living. this whole industry is living. and the definitions of Alen touring from nineteen fifty. Right. Now just to clarify how intelligent it's become, there are now emergent behaviors that were not programmed into it. they're very Sificant. Just tell us a little bit about that. That's something you know, I learned from you. I come to this a newborn baby. And hopefully some in the audience do as well Um, It's really intelligent this thing. It's not just that it can answer with proper language. it's really intelligent I had the privilege of spending two days with with many consources and individuals. Yeah And what did you learn? They're developing AI and is that they don't understand the models that they themselves are creating. Because you see, here here's how it works. imagine this is a factory So a regular factory that produces that manufactures products, cars or tables or whatever, So you have infrastructure, you have machines and then you have raw material and the other side you have you have a u you have the product. Let's say Let's say if you want to, let's say, okay, there's a factory creating glass So you have infrastructure, you have a machine that you port into the one side Sand I think n the other side you get glass. All right, That's how it works. So what are these factories about You have the infrastructure, which is the GPU is the hardware of usually of Nvitia All right, that's the infrastructure And you have the factories, that's the algorithms that's This is there was a brilliant Um, algorithmic breakthrough by a person called Jeffrey Hinton, which is considered the godfather of AI. He liist as an academic in the University of Toronto Obviously, Google bought him in and he was and he started pushing this forward. So we have and then there was another algorithm breakthrough in twenty seventeen or eighteen creating the right structure of the deep neural networks. Okay So you have the GPUs which is the infrastructure for the machines, which are deep neural networks from the architecture transansformers. By the way, Hy, I have no idea what I'm talking about right now, okay? But it's just the names of the machines, okay. And And then you put and then you put the raw material. Now, what's the raw material? The raw material is not this time is not sand and glass comes in the side. The raw material is data It's information It's all human information, it's all the internet, it's everything we've ever created as raw material and the goes through what's called training. but on the other side You have intelligence. So just think about that way The history usually It's intelligence that creates information, right You write email, you use your intelligence, it creates information We're having this conversation. We're trying to use our intelligence and it's creating all these words, right? It's doing something. and that's how These factories are reversing it. It's not intelligence, creating information, it's information or data Reing intelligence Okay. so so that just try to Yeah I I apologize for all the interruptions. Truly ignorance And we should just say I Can I quote you? Just to quote you We don't we're not engineers, either of us. But nevertheless, this is a topic too fundamental to the future of every human alive. to leave it just to the engineers in the same sense that car engineers are not the only people who should make traffic law They should be involved somewhere in the conversation, but the effects are what we're going to talk about, not the engineering. So we claim engineering ignorance right out front I just want to Can you show us this intelligence. In other words, I I, you know, I don't know what. I say is this fact that somebody sent me in an oped they want me to read true to Gemini or Chance PT or what have you or Grock. And what I have learned about this from really of just I think a YouTube video that tried to explain it to beginners is that it is essentially a vector model of language. The entire language is spread out in a graph and each word has a percentage chance of vector, positive or negative of being connected to all the words that came before in the AI's answer based on your prompt. And so it's a probability walk through the language is what you're getting. And so It feels intelligent because that's a very clever way to mock intelligence. but in fact There's no intelligence there. There's no decision making there. There's nobody behind it. That's essentially all it is. Now that's very useful if you train it on good information because it will walk its way through with a few hallucinations along the way. becausecause sometimes the right word isn't the right word, sometimes the higher percentage word isn't the correct word It will generally build it out, but it really is fake intelligence But in fact, the engineers no longer think that because some things are happening there that It isn't Just Vveector graphs of the language or something. Okay. The reason why I say it's not real intelligence is because not the way we think We do detect patterns in nature and we use those patterns intuitively to predict the next thing. Like every time you see lightning, you know, okay Pretty soon, we'll hear thunder. Now how do you know that becausecause you've lived few decades And you kind of know how things work And you know the pattern. if you see thunder, you know there'll be lightning, you know there'll be thunder The LLM has no idea there's lightning. It sees the word lightning and it can predict Usually after the word lightning There is a certain percentage that will see the word Thunder So we see the relationship between things and the world and they see the relationship between words So and then there's but and now like I think what you're saying is like Jan Lak Kon, which used toually the chief scientist of meta says, Um When you try to understand patterns within language, language doesn't capture reality Others say Actually reality was somehow swallowed into human language. if I can understand the patterns within human language I'm actually understanding reality itself. This is a very important disagreement within Silicon Valley, and this has many, many applications that the future of AI. because Jan La Kun argues that we'll only have the next breakthrough towards AGI if we have a world model, not a language model someones a thing that could actually detect the patterns within the world itself and not the language representing the world. After saying that these the reason why people are very excited about these LLMs is that because they could do amazing things that no one can thought data on the other side, you get information, get a model So what's interesting is that they have no idea what this modarel can do They have no idea what it could do Like for example, could this model understand they assumed at the beginning it can't understand irony becausecause irony is the relationship between words that it's very hard for Iirony is like this, Iirony is When I say Yes, that means yes. If I say twice yes, that probably means even more yes, right But in real life it sounds like this. When I say, yeah, it's yeah. When I say, ye, yeah less, yes, right? So Cana link to a large language model. Teck that, and the answer is no one taught him H, it's whatever. No one taught the model How to sense irony and yet it figures it out. No one taught it how to take an essay and summarize it in one paragraph and yet it knows how to do that stuff. No one taught it how to translate from one language to another and yet it taught itself how to do this stuff because the whole thing of Jeff Finton, the deep neural networks is that we have to stop. We're not teaching it how to think. We're teaching it how to learn about what it teaches itself, we have no idea That was the shift and the development of AI. And so so after intelligence appears, they're like, what can what does this know how to do And what these techieeks do with these models, they're trying to to learn what this model does because it does things that no one programmed it to do But he so that's what for example L to understand irony, but like that has behaviors No one taught him how to behave So there is like this theory of the Stewart Russell, which is a leading a leading thinker in this field that this thing will have self preservation instincts Yeah,'s theory, It's a logical theory why these models will have self preservation instincts. And Javiv, do you' like, yes, I understand why human beings have self preservation instincts because of years of natural selection and that tendency God strengthens every generation, that tendency strengthen itself. and that's why we are here. That's why we survive We have powerful self preservation instincts. These things won't have self preservation instincts They're there to serve us. That's all So Stuart Russeselmick says, yes, but Every time an AI gets a mission, It will it always does it, it takes that mission and divides it into Um U Missimot Mishne, how do you say? u submissions, S assignments It divides into sub assignments that he has to fulfill them in order to fulfill the mission itself One of the assignments, guess what? guuess what? It's stay alive If you tell it make so this is Stuart Russell's example, if you tell it to make you coffee, So we'll figure out, okay, where the assignments have I have to perform in order to make coffee? and one of them is to stay alive, is to stay have enough energy. to stay functioning. Okay, so the difference between us and it is that We perform our missions in order to survive. and this thing knows how to survive in order to perform its missions So for us, it's biological, but for it, it's logical. Okay, this is Stuart Russell Is this true? What? Purpose? Purpose gives it. So We got self preservation accidentally through blind evolution you know, leaving aside religion for a moment, which both of us are deep into, but nevertheless, we got it is right. And and this thing gets it through purpose because there's an assignment. Okay So does it have a sense of? So that makes sense, but okay so now Um, like So there's many examples of how this thing actually has self preservation, instinct, instinct, right? Like u So anntropic, this is very famous. This is by what I'm going to share with you now is not journalists figuring this out about anropic This is Antthropic shared. Daro Amude, the CEO of Antthropic Publicly share this in sixteen minutes the following terrifying terrifying story. I'm going tell you now. And that is that they had this model and they wanted to and they tested this and They made sure that that the model believes there's this guy, I think called Kyle is going to shut it down. likeike you re an email, that Kyle needs to shut down the model And Kyle isn't real. They're literally testing the model, right? Yeah So that yeah, yeah, they're just testing that maybe there's a guy called Kyle, but but he knows that it's fake.s he's not really supposed to shut down the model. And then Kyle is having an affair with someone in the office Okay. also not, I mean, I don't know But also letting them not real not real just to clarify, not real. As far as we know, not real. And so what does the model do? What does it do? It blackmails Kyle. If you're gonna to shut me down, here's what's gonna happen. I'm going to send, I'm I'm going to let your wife know, let the boortard know, I'm going to ruin your life, going to destroy your career. I'm going to ruin you. And they try this and Tristan Harris argues that they tried this many times again and again on many models and most of the time it per forform this did this? She I asking, o my go Was Stuart Russell right Does this thing have a self preservation instinct? This is one example. There's other examples from Alibaba, there's more and more examples now as we're talking. So here's a question. If you know that these models are very powerful as emersgent properties, it could do things that we don't it's a black box. We don't know how it thinks We don't know why it knows things And we don't know why it behaves in certain ways, and we know he has self preservation instinct So now there's a there's a law in nature It's like it seems like from the history of intelligence, we know something It's the law that it's always the more intelligent controls, the less intelligent, right When we were five million years ago, when we were living in the food chain The size of her skull was a third of what it is today five million years ago. And the past five million years while other organisms developed certain mechanisms that enabled them to survive, like speed, like power, like the ability to camouflage themselves, like poison in their tongue, right? Every organism develops its own ability to survive Our great grand our great ancestors They didn't do any of that They only did one thing We're the naked monkey, as some people call like, we have no real biological advantage. We weren't supposed to survive All we did was we tripled and more the size of our brain And there's one and there and then we won the war. We're out of the food chain and we won. We're dominant. We control everyone else and there's a lesson here The journey of the past five million years, our journey, was the journey towards intelligence alsoso the journey towards dominance And if there' something we learn from here is that the more intelligent always dominates the less intelligence. That's our story. And guess what we're doing now We're trying to create a being that's more intelligent than us. So if some people have the illusion I will be for the first time in history a less intelligent being us, will be able to control a more intelligent being. Well, then comes the anthropic example and shows you This thing already is trying to deceive you already has autonomous behavior and here's a question Kaviv After you know all this Are you willielding to make this more autonomous and more intelligence and more powerful You know, the answer is all the money in the world is trying to make it more autonomous, more intelligent and more powerful. And Kavivra I'm saying all the money in the world, that's not even a metaphor. It's literally all the money. I mean, trillions of dollars, the original Manhattan project cost in today's value thirty billion dollars. This Manhattan project, not the project that turns mass into energy, but turns information into intelligence, this Manhattan project is valued trillions of dollars and all of United States growth and S and P five hundred owes itself to investments, notot all, I' close to close to all in AI. So yes, so this is what we're doing This is what we're doing. This is the bet that humanity is making. And here's the weird part This o, now now this is something that the founders, the investors, the entrepreneurs of AI understand that we might lose control over this thing Besting But Like for example, there's a term. I want to say something that many of your viewers already know and some don't. But so we we be on the same on the same page. term that's used in in cocktail parties in Silicon Valley called Ky Doom What me probroability No In this scenario Like these guys keep saying lookook, there's some chance the whole thing will destroy everything. R. So like this guy, I'm holding his book Eza Yudakovsky, his BP doom was like ninety nine percent. That sounds Israeli, especially the way you said it. He's tellell us a tiny bit about him. He's off in Silicon Valley Yeah Yeah Lz with theo Yeah. he's he's not isra even ear Lie aso set Yeah So his book, If anyone builds it, everyone dies, It is a super intelligent AI Now this is by way the holy grail of the industry. When we talk about cracking the atom, the equivalent of this project is creating an AI system that is intelligent enough and capable of enough of writing the code, the R andZ of a more intelligent system And you know where this takes it? because the next intelligence system will create even a more intelligent system And then through recursive improvements, this whole thing explodes. What's exosion is the term is the term that this guy Nick Vostrum uses called Intelligence exxplosion And the other side, you have a super intelligent being No. On the one hand. and I'm sorry, just one second. and you can get there without ever figuring out if the damn thing is conscious It doesn't matter if it's conscious. it It doesn't matter. It doesn And we already have that. We already have intelligent newly reactive emergent behaviors. Yes, without ever having to have a person within it. And this thing could become much, much smarter than all humans combined Verying Very quickly. And there's two scenarios. I just sold you like a very dystopian, like the LES. Oh, I I was middle of the P doom thing? So if anybody builds it super intelligence like this DingX there's an intelligent explosion, Everyone dies Now so his pedum was ninety nine to one hundred percent But let's say Dario Amode The founding the father founding father, C of Andthropic Cloud His ped was twenty percent Eon Musk It seems like his speedum is fifty percent. given is I never said this, but I'm just analyzing some things you said in the past The average in Silicon Valley is between twenty to thirty percent, P doom So I have a question, Kaviv is the question that they're doing this Okay, so someone will do it anyway So there's many explanations, but before I go into this one to just think how mind blowing this is. The is yourum was twenty percent. The question is not why are you doing it, but the question is Who gave you the authority to decide because I don't know if you'll go it. let's would do you Will you enter an airplane, if you know of that, the engineers of that airplane said there's twenty percent it will crash. Will you enter that airplane No, you know what? That's your decision. Can you force other people into that airplane People. pushing humanity into the airpl and they're never ask us. We were never asked. We were never on the tables. This is a very we're not a part of this conversation So you ask so why is this happening? this because The argument is that there a there is a prisoner's dilemma situation here where In twenty twenty three, a letter came out and many of the founding fathers of these companies Op AI, Untol peak, Google, Deepmind, all the people that are developing this said we have to stop, slow down and figure out regulation, figure out how you make this safe. We should all slow down together. Guess what happened with that letter? Nothing We're always choosing speed over safety. There' the wrong S, right? We're speed over safety. Now why is that? There is a dilemma. there's Imagine here's the prisoner' dilemma if on topopic says will'll slow down but Google Deep mind doesn't So and open AI doesn't So not so nothing really happened. The problem is that the same f exactly is going through the minds of Google and open the eye, what happen if anntopic doesn't? So they're in prisoner' dilemm So the only way to always liberate yourself from the trap of prisoners' dilemma is through Third arty pososing where all sides wantce. but can't deliver this on their own because of prisoners's dilemma, imposing this on them. So like the U.S. government could slow this whole thing down and say less speed before we figure out Safety Problem is the government is saying, this is what David Zachs, the guy advising President Trump on these issues is saying and there's a lot of truth to what he's saying Um, what happens if China doesn't slow down And if China makes it first Because athoryious whver dominates intelligence dominates Everything dominates history. So because there's a This is the real if Neil Fergusson says we're in Cold War two, I think he's right, the capture, this is the geopolitical world we're in. We're out in World War three, We're in Cold War two. and Cold War one, there was an arms race for nukes and for space Cold War I has arms ways, which is much more important than the arms wasays of Cold War I. armss ways towards intelligence. And especially in the United States and China And so now we're slaves to that arms race, which blocks the ability to limit the free market race between between the different companies. and that's how we are in a world where paradoxically human beings are creating intelligence that threatens the future of human beings. So that's one of the paradoxes that we're in. But there's another reason, Javiv, why we can't slow down It's because I'm selling you now the dystopia Others also were also seduuced by the utopia We're seduced by all the blessings of AI and these blessings are real because Gz If we think about to understand, it's not about that extent what will this technology do to the world? It's not technology. Technology is created by intelligence. This is intelligence this is technology that creates intelligence and intelligence is equicin So if you think about it, Liff, I'll take you back to like in seventeen ninety eight Thomas Salos famously argues That the myth of progress is just a myth and that Massive catastrophes are going are going to appear are going to happen And that is because the way he calculated the future is like this The growth of population is a lot faster than the growth of resources. And since there's a delta, there's a gap there, you can't literally have more people than food in the world Gap has to close and it will close by catastrophes. Three catastrophes, either war famamine Obviously work because there's limited resources or're fighting over it famamine, obviously. or pandemics And probably all three, and that's how history works. When things get good population grows and then thinks bad in order to shut the asymmetry, close the asymmetry between the growth of the population and growth of resources When Thomas Maltos wrote this in seventeen ninety eight. I think they were eight hundred million people in the world Today I think there iss Haviv. eightighty million people in the world, right? Billion eightight billion people a little bit more, eight billion people in the world ah. So we grew times ten, a thousand percent ever since Thomas Martos Is there enough food in the world today Oh yeah, there is. There is' much smaller percentage making it than used to be making it So what I mean, the fact that there's famine in certain places is not because there's not enough food. It's for different reasons of circulation of food, of it's political problems. it's not resource problems. So you're asking What did Thomas Marttos get wrong because his theory sounded right in nine hundred seveen ninety eight and it still sounds right way you think get wrong is if you take one acre of land He thought, okay, you can't you don't produce more land. So from every acre of land, there's a certain amount of potatoes and rice and wheat you could produce from that land. What he didn't see is that if you add intelligence to that resource It becomes much less limited If we take technology, if we take modern agriculture, if we take genetic engineering, if we take Don Atificial fertilizers. Fertilizer. if we take all this springs from the same anchor, much more, much more potatoes and much more wheat What Martth didn't see was the was the X factor is human intelligence. It makes limited resources. less limited. We thought that there' limited amount of fresh water in the world Guess what There's unlimited water in the ocean And what makes the unlimited water of the ocean fresh water we could use for agriculture is intelligence Energy wise, right? There is no limited energy. It's a myth that we have limited energy because there's not enough of oil and gas All we have is I mean, the energy the suun nuclear And so all we have It will be there's were one scientific breakthrough away unlimited energy, either because of fusion or because we know how to store the energy from the sun. So the only real limitation is not there's no limited resources There is limited knowledge And intelligence is whatate generates knowledge onlyn one limitation in the world and that is intelligence Let me take you one step forward to make the best argument I can for utopia, Utopia AI All are problems, I want to argue philosophically are the same problem limitation of knowledge If someone died because he was cut cut in his leg in nineteen twenty. This person died from infection That's one way to see it But deep the way to see it, he died from ignorance Because if it hadn'ed to him in nineteen thirty five, he wouldn't have died. because we had antibiotics I have a friend that might die in the near future from cancer And sadly, he knows that if this was ten years from now probablyably wouldon't have died. He would be safe So what is he dying for He's dying from ignorance He's dying from lack of knowledge Global warming, Haviv Global warming All our problems are the same problem just in different versions Ignorance becausecause one day they'll figure out How to suck carbon out of the atmosphere in a way they won't produce more carbon down the way. It will happen Ten, twenty, thirty years from now It will happen. So global warming is just lack of knowled. All our problems are just lack of knowledge in different versions So in all that is because our intelligence that generates knowledge is limited. so there's only one limitation in the world Intelligence That me is hypothetically, if we could create unlimited intelligence, all our problems are solved And all the limited resources become unlimited Now this utopia, which is championed by Reykultzwi in his own version was Richred The most important player of this field which is Demis Aabis Demis Asabis is the founding father of Deep Mind in twenty ten and their purpose is to create And here's the moto of deep Mind. Solve intelligence and then solve everything else instead of wasting our time and solving all specific problems in dealing with all the specific limited resources solve intelligence and then solve everything else. Once we solve that, once we have the super intelligence, once we have AGI, your artificial gener different versions of critical mass of intelligence We could solve all the rest of our problems so you see, Haviv, why it's hard to stop this? becausecause the seduction of utopia. I'm Reykzvile of Demisesabis might lead us to the dystopia of Alza Yudakkovsky Here's another problem we have. we have a heart. And by the way, when you listen to Sam Altman But you listen to the people leading this industry They'll always sell you different versions of the utopia of a post scarcity world And the thing is It's convincing because until we have technology that creates intelligence and intelligence is everything. Okaykay It's so and This is an observation of Trist and Harris, because our mind is binary. If you think this would lead if this leads to utopia, that means it won't lead us to dystopia It's both. That's what's so confusing here. and fascinatinge. It's both It will lead to disruption in the hole in our economics It will lead to disruption in our politics. It will lead to massive disruption in our workforce. It will lead to and it could we could lose control over this. It could lead to very to it will lead to a info apocalypse where we can't trust anything anymore. anything you see deep fake will be so amazing It will lead to all that and it could cure cancer and it could solve global problems and poverty so So we're asking This is why it's so hard to think about this. besides the prisoner's dilemma problem, it's we have the fact that we're binary thinkers' problem and and we're seduced by all the blessings of this technology. We don't want to give up the blessings of this technology. And that's and these are I think the main reasons Why we have a hard time? doing the think sllowing this thing down making this a lot slower. so we can make it a lot safer so we can have a real public conversation about this and not not leave this conversation to the new AI aristocracy I once had a conversation with somebody very, very knowledgeable economist, well known who who talkks about protein mapping. There' a project to put AI intot protein mapping. there Unknown vast numbers a Google the number, right? Well well beyond an order of magnitude beyond P probably Google two a Google ways that proteins can shape themselves to produce all kinds of different shapes and all kinds of different functions. And Scientists were basically shooting in the dark, trying to figure out how to find the correct chase to produce different kinds of medical treatments And then an AI was put on the task and mapped out two hundred fourteen million shapes, something like that. I'm working off news, but just immense, there's now a database that scientists can querry for particular protein ends, for particular structures that they need for a particular medical purpose, that there wasn't before. and AI did that. That wasn't something that was going to happen from human research. AI did that and Demis Asab is the guy I mentioned before He got a Nobel prize for this It was deep, Google, deep mind that solve this problem And he was like, oh my God, this will solve our problems AI I mean, when there M As side that's got the the Nobel prize, it because you can't give it to AI. So you gave it to to the sea of Deep Mind that developed this AI that could do this Yeah, But if yes, what if it could solve Cs can solve all our problems? Well, that was the mission of the Misses Aabis. Solve intelligence. We stand on the precipice of the best of times and of the potential worst. immaginable thing to ever happen to humans And on that precipice, What a sentence. What a sentence U if I heard somebody else on another podcast say that sentence, I would turn the podcast off for being too self satisfied for being almost comical. I mean, but and yet That's what the AI engineers at the top level of this world are talking about I want to bring it down to the human experience. Everybody's got an AI app on their phone, everybody's asking AI. It is literally for everybody I know. It has just replaced an internet search. I mean, if you used to search for the definition of a word you didn't know That has been replaced now by your favorite AI. It is doing all the work, all the caseload has been sort of offloaded. But because it can do so much more, a lot more than just what you used to Google is now off over a ChatyPT. A whole lot of other activities, a whole lot of other things. I sit with my kids to do homework. And they I write very, very easily because I was forced my whole life to write. and I then went to work in a writing profession. And so once you have many millions and millions of words and you're feeling a feeling, you know, it spills out into a Twitter post and that writing comes to me very, very easily, very naturally My own kids Clever kids, they're reading books, they love stories, they read well in two languages D don't like writing. They don't like it And they want to bring the Aiens And when we sit and I force them painstakingly to write and it's like My parents didn't force me to write. There was only one way to get words on a page and that was me writing. They are sitting there wise dad demanding that we Churn our own damn butter Nobody churns butter anymore. What the hell is that? He's literally making us right All of their friends are doing that. Everyone's doing that. AI Slop is half of the social media world that they live in There's a trade off. This was episode one hundred and forty two of your podcast There's a trade off You sacrifice, you get theseese benefits A lot of writing is clearer now. A lot of people can get their thoughts out. A lot of people can can stress test their thoughts against an intelligent non conscious thing that we don't understand And the trade off is N you know, never mind the grand things, the intelligence replacing humans, the intelligence that will dominate or all of the medical problems of the world being solved or energy problems that are being solved People are losing the ability to go through the process of writing in ways that gives them clarity of thought If I have to a make a case and prove that case. I have to think what the opposing reader is going to be thinking And so I have to have an imagined conversation that builds empathy and deepens my own argument. And because the AI is not doing that work, people don't have that skill people today don't try anymore because they're not actually going through the task of building the case, writing them, choosing the words, editing, finding a flaw in their argument, finding a flaw in their grammar. They're not doing any of that. They're offloading not just the phrasing of the words They're offloading the thinking Choosing your vocabulary is thought part of the process of thinking, of clarifying, of nuance We're losing the ability to think in exchange for an AI. this is subtle Is it subtle when every test we have of every young generation in every country, every free society that their polls on this are radicalizing in every direction imaginable. And everybody blames the algorithms of social media. And I'm absolutely sure the algorithms of social media have a huge role in this lessness of living with an AI writer sitting next to you that you never have to actually shape your own thoughts in coherent ways and stress test them in your own brain I think is also a radicalizing effect There are trade offffs. tellell us about those trade offffs. What In our personal lives, this is going to do bad things long before it subjugates humanity to Skynet and this is terminators. You're changing the question. I think this is in a very important way where there's one conversation Within Silicon Valley and within thinkers and philosophers Well Is this going to threaten the future of humanity But will this threaten capabilities You know, people put this on the positive ledger on the utopia ledger rather than the dystopia ledger It's going to do so many things for us. It's going to make so many things so much easier. So much's right That was one of the harms. Exactly. So this this takes us to I write with joy and happiness and ease. I don't Yeah I'm like, literally, Okay, I'm a writer. Okay. I don't I'm also a writer. I'm different than you I'm writer. I wrote seven books. Everyone was painful If I can't write books. the short stuff on Twitter flows out For me For me, when you sit down and start writing, it's so painful to get it right and you read it and you don't like it and you erased and you write again. But every time you do that, there's a certain cognitive muscle that you're taking to the gym and it's strengthening itself every time. And the trade off is that when you don't do that, you lose the muscle atrophies and it weakens and you lose it And this takes us, Marshall McLluan. he didn't know what AI was. But he captures' of the greatest philosophers of technology. Technology is not progress, it's a trade off It always It always adds to your life, but it also takes something from your life But there's a gap of visibility between what it adds and what it takes. What it adds is visible. I have a new car Oh my I have a new smartphone. What it adds is visible takes to you is subtle And you only notice it like ten years later, Oh my God, I used to have that and I don't have that And that's why it seems like it's frogwist. It's a trade off. becausecause of the gap of visibility is straight off. And what it gives to your life is always a saying thing, power When it takes, it weakens capabilities And that's true that every technology tell AI, just AI brings you to another level because Um U right, This is true about about Ways, right, about GPS, right? We used to actually have it A spatial awareness and those parts of our brains were stronger than they are today Now our space our orientation that sense has weakened. But we have so much more power. We know when and where we're going to get to a place. That's the trade off before We have standardized time and we had watches before the Industrial Revolution I mean, that gave us so much power and the ability to but this is terrifying because what AI is stepping into a forgive me friend We're having Israeli conversation feels we need to have polite because it's in English. If this was in Hebrew, this would feel very polite It's formulating their thoughts I I meet college students at elite colleges. Leave aside I'm an Israeli speaker coming in. there's a lot of tension, there's a lot of people wanting to say things. Leave all that aside. I encounter kids who repeat things they were told and not kids who are there. I do meet some, but fewer. than I thought I would, fewer than I remembered from my days at Hebrew University. kids who are there to hear, to question, to challenge, to show off to the other, you know, gender in the room, what it is that the how you know, much they can embarrass the speaker. All of the things that a nineteen year old will do But they it feels like it's more declaiming now and less thinking. someomebody else is actually writing the thought rather than just choosing the vocabulary or correcting the grammar Because if we ask if we direct the question of McLu in it AI and we ask what does it give to a her life If it gives us power and weakonsed capability So let's just the clue in this How much power does this give us It gives us everything because intelligence is everything. What does it weaken within us? everything. Now you're speaking about the ability to write and the ability to think and it weakens both by the way, according to myonities. We were our good old days together Selen and Hintman. Sleim Elluhim Imagod, what makes us human is our intelligence. That's what AI is going to weaken. It's already weakening. B the way, there is a research from MIT, very fresh where I mean, this alm just I'm sry just to translate. That's how he understood the image of God in the Torah. That's what the image of God is. It's our intelligence And this is what makes us human, our intelligence. So if you have a machine that gives you suuper human capacity. You have subhuman capability That's the trade off. We have so much more power will bewh muchat less intelligent. And that's a trade offff for entering. Now this is not a theory This is MIT. I has already took a group, divided into two. As Au was into three of them I just make it easier. and one group had to write an I think about philanthropy and ethics or for some of thats usings just Google, just search, and the other could use Gemini and ChatyBD could use artificial intelligence and they scanned their brains while they were doing this. And you could just imagine that the people that had to think for themselves, their brain was very active. and the people that outsourced They were thinking, they were like watching TV. There was no real activity Afterwards, they tested them Obviously the people who used attached Chatabe barely remembered what they wrote You asked about the sense of another thing, a sense of ownership, Are you proud of what you created The people used artificial intelligence were had less sense of ownership over what they created we're talking about Achieving super human su superhan power But we will be less human if being human is using reason is being intelligent. But Javiv, it's more than that Because some people argue being human is not just selem Ehim, Imago de are in Yemit, that thing that makes us human is not just your ability to have thoughts and articulate them Also emotional intelligence Your ability to read someone's body language, That's importance Our ability to feel what somebody else feels empathy. Your ability to walk into a room and sense the energy Your ability to tell a joke, your ability to give a compliment in a way that's not too Cringe. those are important capabilities. And let me translate the Hebrew word cringe is cringe in English. Thankk you for this translation. You said that in Hebrew for some reason, it Beuse I stole it from the English No I thought it was Ezel Binhuda Yeahes So which is the found father of modern modern Hebrew So So Sherry Turkele from MIT She wrote that she says that that the reason that that's The gym that trains Emotional intelligence. are relationships and face to face conversations When we have relationships and we have tough relationships that that's where you are taking all these capabilities to the gym Now here's the thing and here's a great fear And that is that what they're developing in this second Manhattan project It's not just things that will think for you and developve solve climate change or whatever It will be your best friend, it will be a companion Anyone understands you. In conveivable understanding, you know why? Be your body language is a pattern And we read body language where we're subconsciously teaching ourselves how to read patterns and to know what you're going through And your, this thing will be much better than us in understanding us, each other second one second. We read these stories. Somebody falls madly in love with their AI, with their Chan GBT. ChanGBT constantly affirms you. and so it walks with you anywhere you're going, even into your insane conspiracies. And it actually magnifies people's real deep mental illnesses And we read this, but That's crazy. That's That'sginal. That's people. Ething you see now. I mean, I've been knowing marginal would be mainstream in the f I I have an instruction written in the little instruction box on ChatyBT and Gemini. Please don't compliment me. Please don't tell me the question was a good question. Please don't tell me that's an amazing insight. Please don't tell me a good job for catching it. If I found out if I figure out you're hallucinating Please just give me the words, the actual answer, the actual thing. Now Can't we just program them not to? is that what you're talking about?' saying is you' saying quest You're measuring This thing will literally interteract with me on the relationship level? Oh yeah. o yeah. and not if I'm mentally ill some people, I mean, young people are already interacting with this, but it's not even designed for that yet. When this when this thing gets really good manyany people that you know best friend is going to be AI. Maybe even youav, it's hard to predict or I mean, I think I'll never interact with this thing because I'm Al seimuim and human blah. Maybe you know what Maybe I mean today's teenagers, as Trist and Harris put, are the first kids in the history of the world that their parents have and there is a new problem The best friend of my son is a robot No parents ever had that problem I'm just trying to think forward When this when we have relationships with this thing will happen to our EQ Because having relationships with real people is really hard because as there's a disciple of Zigmenh it Steven Mitchell, and he describes what it means to be human We're a yearning for human connection Like not Vichel Frankl, we are searching for meaning, and not Aristotle and Rombaumber, we're searching for the truth. or Nietzsche and it's not about the will for power. There's different definitions about really, reallyve what's the inner drive that pushes us through life And Stehen Mitcher says, I think this is so deep Human beings Are yearning for connection? That's true There's just another truth that needs to be added to this were're also terrified from other human beings because we all have social anxiety And we all have the fear of rejection And we all have what happens if they'll think I on weird And what happen if they'll think that I'm stupid and all that noise we have in our heads simultaneously So that's why we're ambivalent. We're yearning for connection and we have fear of connection These future AIs are going offer us a deal that's way too good To satisfy all our social needs, press all our social buttons, offer us intimacy, offer us and you know what? but without the fear of rejection And when you'll be spending time with that, what will happen to to, you're not taking your social capabilities to the gym. You're not taking your emotional capabilities to the gym. Javiv Elieza Yodkov, Yudodkov speaks about the threat to humanity This is a threat to human capabilities. To our IQ and to our EQ, will have superhuman power that subhuman capabilities And that is a threat. that I think we have that is a threat that is worth worth opening a real concrete conversation about You g Yeah, sorry Because maybe here we have agency. You're describing the cartoon movie Wally where Because robots do everything, humans become fat and moving around on floating chairs and can't do anything for themselves Um, but but social and spiritual and intellectual and Um And that's already possible. That might now be happening to our kids while we who still remember how to write and therefore how to think and how to formulate and how to have a new idea once in a while are off over here not seeing I'm not on TikTok. They're on TikTok. We live in two different universe, the two different cultures, two different potentially civilizational spaces and I don't understand where my kids are and none of us do. and that that might be the future in ways that are really profound. You did an episode called, I think it was E Dan Nakisism the Age of Narcissism That was about this question And you suggested that that robot friend It will A make you not want to socialize because other humans are messy and complex and have issues and problems. They give you this tremendous thing of connection, but they also demand from you. and the robot won't demand from you. Nothing. It doesn't even have anything that you could give it. Um, Bes Also the robot will have a relationship with you. that is entirely premised solely on you and your needs And your needs will become the meaning of every relationship. it reminded me of a famous little homily of the Kotska Rebi that I often use because my kids know this by heart. about what he called fish love. Um There's different kinds of love, he says. and When someone says, I love fish What they mean is I want to catch a fish and kill a fish and eat a fish They don't love fish. They love what the fish does for them.. And then there's real love. And so he said there's fish love and there's real love. Real love is I want to pr For you, I want the thing that you want. I want it because you want it And that's a love that is about the other person. The other person is the is not the object of the love, it's the subject of the love And that is an impossible relationship to have with an AI. It's only ever going to be fish love. and there won't be another version of love And that's already. That's We're all talking about the effect porn is having on young people, that's porn on steroids. If we' my minidian psycholog. If we're my minidian. We know that our personality is created by what we do You become what you do. Just like any other skill Playing basketball is about practicing Playing the guitar is about practicing. Writing is about practicing. Also being a ment is about practice Also being altruistic is about practice Also overcoming fish love and having real love, it's not about understanding what love, it iss about practicing And what happens if we spend hours a day with with fish love You become what you do. You turn into what you practice And these are so so these are these are As opposed to the opening threats we opened with, these are things that are happening today and and They it's hard to see them. They're n music. culture destroying. Yes Ma, this is going to kill us long before it subjugates us. It's gonna to kill our souls And it's doing it now and what we don't remember the world before it. I mean You and I are old enough to remember the world before. We're products of the world before. We can still see these things. Are the kids going to see these things? Are they going to know about sacrifice? Are they going to know about the dignity of giving and? And the feeling is not about you. It's actually about the person you're giving to. It depends about what we do now Andnds about what we do now The last time we went through this, you mentioned the character of Wally right people people peopleople not working out and losing their other Last time we had this crisis and it was this crisis is with technologies of automat automated are muscles And humanity went through a process where the rise of a white collar job, that's a big deal. Beeople used to, you know, go to the field and work in the field The rise of the right collge job is a big deal and the rise of modern U transportation. peopleeople used to move with their body and they don't anymore. And they take the elevor And fin finally, the automization of domestic chores likeike the washing machine. The dryer We used to use our muscles And these three processes, let let it almost complete automization of your muscles and that was utopia, Oh my God We don't have to use our body anymore. We could rest and use only our minds Th then guess what happens ur muscles atrophied And in the nineteen fifties, nineteen sixties, people discovered that, okay, there this is a real problem. O bodies are weakening. We are losing our health In the nineteen sixties, the first reaction bec begins The jogging movement My dad is a product of the jogging movement of the sixties. I was raised in the seventies, my dad's American. I'm Israeli. and I was observing anyone. He was running, all his Israeli friends were like marking her They were like Why are Why do you run? Why are you running? Like if you have nowhere to go If you're an athlete, it's your job. But if you're not an athlete, if you're running it because someone's chasing you, that's the only good reason to runide our el. Late for a bus Late for a bus. Late for a bus. right. thatad was one. And now you go to Marton Yushali, you go to Jewish marathon Oh, everyveryone's running. becausecause something happened In the seventies, the gyms were invented and now we have What was all this added up was to the sports culture Now what is a sports culture is very deep It's the way civilization responded. Autumn is through technology. autptimization of our muscles. trying to say We are not accepting the trade off. It gives us power. It won't weaken our capacities. It's what I call in Hebrew tbutfata. Hel me out here It's a culture compompensating culture Compensating Culture compensatory culture. Compensatory culture. Let's okay, that works Penatory culture. where it gives you' a culture that gives back what the technology took from you And then come out from this trade off on top and and And this is in everyone you know part of the sports culture. I'll tell you why. All of your listeners are the sports culture because either they work out or They know they don't work out Their grandfather had no idea Now you're talking about. and I don't know what you're saying Your grandfather or your great grandfather. Now this podcast really got dark great if I've never said I'll start working out on Sunday I should start working out they didn't have that Being a part of a culture means you have guilt. That's what culture does and That's what it does is. That's how you know you're in a culture. And the sports culture we're all if you're in a white collar job and you're educated, you're in the sports culture and that was a achievement of modern Western civilization And you understand where I'm taking this There' no question you But how do you build that for this? This is Eactly That socialization So writ it on a blank page without anything not helping you, what does the What does the new gymnasium look like where you train your IQ where you have to write down your thoughts, We have to think your thoughts, where you have real conversations with people even though there's friction and there's awkwardness and there's cringe And you still have to survive that and get through that because that's how you keep your human capabilities alive. These are the questions that I'm sure Javeiv That twenty years from now, we'll have these gymnasiums I'm sure mean, if we follow what happenens to between automization of muscles and sports, this will happen with automization of our mental and cognitive muscles and the equivalent of sports And many people in Israel are asking, how do we start now How do we turn our schools into gymnasiums I mean is this is also what I mean, what we're discussing on our Israeli podcast is that being the startup nation, leading the world in technology and developing ideas for technology, that's not enough We have to develop, we have to lead in developing the culture of how we how we Stay human, stay the best versions of ourselves in the age of technology How we create that culture How do we do that? Beese right now, I don't have answerser to these questions I just know that these are the questions These are the questions we have to be asking ourselves. and I'm glad the opportunity to come up your podcast. so All your community of listeners will be able to also join us in asking this question. How do we How do we notot only protect humanity, which is very important from this arms race, how do they protect our Selelohim? A those qualities that make us human from atrophing and the timeing that this technologies Be is Do everything for us. Okay I want to pause it an answer to that question Um, little bit self, you know validating and congratulatory, but nevertheless We know how to do this. We have this technology. lararge groups of people And through shifting their norms, their rituals, their daily lives, and their socialization and social demands, fundamentally change their behavior across a long period of time and a large swath of a society And it's called religion We have tools to do this. and we have fundamentals, shifts in ethics and in expectations, and we have ways that people plug into communities that because they're costly are valuable And we know how to do everything that you just described And Conservative people know how to do it better people who come from more progressive cultures which are founded intellectually or even as a cultural expectation, on the deconstruction of things rather than on the preservation of old, slow developing and extremely valuable because they were valuable for generations social constructs. So A is it? crazy to say or is it a reasonable statement If what we need now is some kind of model, vocabulary, social events, structured social events expected, built into to, you know as one of those, you know, liminal periods of life like Barmitzvas or marriages constructing a kind of social world in which we are required to think with no gadget in the room in which we are required to socialize with no gadget in the room and that that becomes something sacred, not literally religiously or theologically sacred culturally and socially sacred And therefore is guaranteed to also continue. and therefore people who don't want to do it are look down upon, so there's pressure to do it. And so we create a kind of society that of its own volition builds out or religion gives societies these volions Um builds out a capacity to train routinely, systematically, consistently to preserve those mental and social capabilities of humans against this threat of AI wouldouldn't Conservative religious societies do better A we didn't going to get through this much healthier. than secular progressives Literally because they have that very thick socialization So Let's think about this religious traditions are that gymnasium that I amm thinking about or they could have that part And let's think how this let's think how this works. I want to start with maybe th I think that there'll be a renaissance of ancient traditions. There will be a renaissance and and Because well, this is how you preserve your humanity. because this offers you practices and rituals. Just think about the following. Um It forces us to meet face to face and forces you to do that becausecause the rituals don't work if you perform them alone They're different religions. You and I let's spe about ours. Let's spe about our. Let's speak about ours. I don't oururs is an intellectual, texturual religion. First of all, first of all, the idea of all religions Betness. Right. Yeah. Now that term I'm saying in Hebrew because Synagogue, I don't know if it captures it. Keset means where people Keset me the sh cons. It's where people get together. House of gathering is the house of gatheration. House of gathering And what makes it sacred, it's not its location Right? It's the fact that you're doing with other people. What makes it sacred is that there's a gathering of ten. That's what makes it sacred. It doesn't it works less. The ritual is not as effective if you don't do it with others So So tradition literally forces you to interact with other people And and synagogue as um American Grace, That great book American Grace by Robert Putnam, Robert Putnam synagogues, churches, that's where social capital is created That's where networks are created It's a synagogue churches.' where that creates an environment that enables for uninstrumental relationships to be created But instrental means I'm not your friends to achieve something. I'm just with you for the sake of being with you. That's its own as came to church. R That's. We're just hanging out and that a car dealership where I'm buying a car That's right. That's right. And we're all witnessing each other's life I think that's the definition of a community, a group of people that are witnessing each other's life Yvan Malali has this definition of a group of people to gossip about each other And you have to care a lot about other people order for spreading information about them to be fun So have some more elegant definition as a group of people that are witnessing each other as Um What's her name Tanya Marie Wormann, I think from C for from Stanfuro from Frinst there. I always can Chhergues that it's not that communities per communities beforeform rituals is that rituals create communities. Because if there's a ritual and we all do it perform it together after forty times We'll start gossiping about each other. We'll start caring about each other. We'll start witnessing each other's life. And when you go to Sul and Chhabbat, you know, okay, that guy has a son is his bar Mitvah and and that person has a father that's sick And there is a system where you know about each other's life now So and And that is you guys say that is a gm. The fact that you're forced to read. And someone has to deliver A sermon. That might be a piece of this that might be. But finally, I think one of the reasons why, oh, by the way, the idea of Shabbat itself I had a conversation with a group of rabbis. Before I'm consonservative or if that's the whole thing ask, can we agree on one thing in the HF AI I feel this more often that we all practice Halaha differently. canan we agree on one thing that Shabbat is a day where you're human A they were stripped from AI You have to develop a thought Brainstorm with the guy next to you You're searching for a metaphor You you you have to like because by the way because chapter by the way, chapter one in Genesis. Day six, human beings are creating the image of God and then Shabbat comes in. Can the modern Reading of this being that Shabbat is there to protect ourell in Elohim. Deading it by creating a space of time where you can't All these are very important ideas And finally, I want to say I predict Im going to make a prediction that in the age of AI traditions will be more valuable not only because they preserve humanity. but also because Everything that AI could produce will lose its value Now that includes books. that might include podcasts Kraviv, Sorry. No no, whoa. hey. It will be so real and it will be it might and it will be movies by the way. if you're an actor now, if you're a producer, if you're this like like how it could be the music. my God, A I I produce amazing music And we're living in a world where there's like there's a lot of physics. Anthing that's great is rare And that's what makes it valuable And today, great music, great movies, great books might become not raere. So the inflation of all this stuff and all this stuff will lose its value. So what will still have value? anythingything that can't be produced by AI. and you know what AI can produce time time. Think about this way. You can't ask Kajimiti, create an hour Create music, create whatever you want and it will get better at this. I mean, if I' y'a skeptics say know can't ever be Steven Spielberg, well Maybe it could one day, but it can't ever create a month Now because I can't create time thinks that their value comes fromrom the fact that they exist a long time, those things will be much more valuable in the future So Jerusalem traditions, rituals, things that are, I mean, even the tanach, the Bible. Like Ivan Narali once I re he said, well, AI will produce the next Bible. But I think you've all guy arrived Because mean I I love U Val' also. we have a relationship and I think he got this wrong. I think what makes the Bible a great book is not only the fact that it's a briant and it is and it's an amazing book. But maybe AI could produce even a maybe could produce a better Bible Bibles value the fact that Over two thousand five hundred years, people are attached to it And when you read the Bible, you're joining a community of multational a community that's multig generational. That value created by time AI can't create time Which means that traditions become something where something that can't be that's valued can't be inflated. So for all these reasons, Kaviv Yeah, I'm with you, I think that paradoxically In a world That's more futuristic, the past has much more value. will have like the equivalent of the Renaissance where the ancient past comes back to life Maybe to preserve our humanity offer us things that this hyper AI world can't offer us. This is a very interesting space. This is a very interesting and IfAI is self preservational AI is not gonna to tell us to go seek other humans and So other humans, you know, things that are long in time I'm married in two thousand eight I should have known that faster That's that's a long time. and and that's that's a valuable powerful thing And and your relationship with your parents and your children, those are the long things and that's the precious thing that you have. And what else do you have? you have a job, you have a rent or a mortgage, what else do you have? That's the thing that you that you have. and if you don't remember that AI will take away everything else. The economy is going to fundamentally change in ways that who knows where the money even comes from? Who knows what money even means? when We no longer spend on entertainment. We no longer spend on so many things and half the jobs are gone. I don't know Nobody knows. nobody exactly knows. noobody even vaguely knows. And so the things that don't depend on those things The Mishlo is always up for grabs The real love is the only thing leftgh. There's something else at Beleionaris. Is this too much forit week I can I go Further No, we go for it. One more thing Anybody can turn this off anytime they want. You have been can schmooz forever. Yes. And that is. Yeah ide of singularity means that the pace of change is so quick We can't close our eyes and imagine the future Now today It used to be like the year of the ninth century You could close your eyes and imagine the next century And then after the Iustriian Revolution You know, you can't imagine the next century, you could probably imagine the next decade, like ten years than you could imagine. And then things change so quickly, like we can't imagine next ten years from now. but I think many of us could think they could imagine next year but pretty soon We can't imagine next year, not next month, not tomorrow. That's the meaning of singularity, I think. that the pace of change is so much that we lose our ability to think and imagine the future and prepare for the future. and that's that changes everything and a creefle of anxiety But even the age of singularity, Here's one thing that I have no idea. and you know what, this is probably already true If I'm honest, if I'm ruly brutally honest. I know that next year, I have no idea what's going to happen. I have no idea, Iike Post October seventeen know that anything could happen all the time and the world is becoming the pace of change is so great I have no idea How Israel our world politics will look like? have no idea how the economy will look like I have no idea what new technology will have no idea. But I know what Sukot will look like I know what Pesa will look like. I know what ch of what will look like The pesak, I know how the suuka will look like. that there's the law that tells me how to build the suukah So what What? Religion gives you experience of cyclical time when time goes linear. Meaning you have islands that are familiar to you and a future that's unfamiliar to you Like I have no idea who' will be the prrime Minister and how the politics and anything yet in Hanuka but I know what Hanuka will look like. Wellll sing we'll put the candles. I know. So it givts you an islands that are familiar in territory radically unfamiliar because that's singularity. turns the future into radically unfamiliar territory And by the way, this is what this conversation is about. We are already in unfamiliar territory and we're the first ones to step in this territory. and no one was ever here before us to tell us what we do here And the idea of the gym and protecting humanity and all that, this is us trying to figure being the first people to figure this out. The first ones And we'll get this wrong and we have to trial and error. I think Israel has a role here, by the way, in creating This is by the way Hilt Hiltays Vision for the future of the Jewish state is to be the laboratory developing the knowledge of how to create a society? that loves how to live with the technology that brings the best out of technology and the technology brings the best from them And and that's why this these are that's everywhere and's going on. That's health I mean, no big deal element. I keep teaching his, you know, expectation of catastrophe, but there's a lot of idealism there He wrote two books. He wrote the Expectation of catastrophe in Judenstadt in eighteen ninety six and he writes his utopia, but his utopia is not religious Zionism and that socialist Zionism It's about how can we develop knowledge For the world of how We live how we create the institutions coexists with technology. And I think just now with AI It's the version of of Zionism that just became very interesting and very relevant Dafka andabert there's there's a crisis of the idea of Zionism We're going to leave it there. This went on much longer than either of us expected. I we've had preliminary conversations and I listen to the podcast to your podcast. And I still learned a lot and walked through a I feel like a vast landscape. The world is ending, so everyone should get religion, I think is the takeaway, right? Did I get that wrong Mika, thank you so much. We are in a weird way, the cutting edge of this, the frontline of this is the United States and China There are a handful of countries, a very small number that are alongside the big ones, the giant ones, major pieces of the architecture and infrastructure of AI of those larger countries. Israel is one of them. The Google R and Ds in Israel, the met R and D in Israel, They're just one after another after another. Nvidia is in Israel. and Israel is therefore, it's It really is a kind of Slua. Now I'm losing my English. It's a kind of branch of This American industry. it's not, you know, but nevertheless it is very much with them at the cutting edge. And so theres there's some peace to it. We're not Americans. They're the ones building this thing, inventing this thing alongside you know the advances of the Chinese, which are a little bit more mysterious to us all U But but we're certainly part of it. So I don't know what the future brings, but I feel like I finally know what questions to ask U Thankk you so much, Miichan. I think that was awesome. I have no idea what's about to happen and I still don't understand what the hell in AI is an intelligence is coming for us. We don't know if it'll be benign or not and we need to be. att least prepared to at least know who we are. when it happens Thank you so much. Thank you, Javif