Future Outlook and Fighting Anti-Semitism

Hi everybody. Welcome to a new episode of Askav of anythingthing. This is going to be a really fascinating one. I'm very grateful to Professor May Litwak for joining us to talk about A burning question, a powerful and profound question, the history of anti Semitism in Islam within Islam, especially in the modern age with modern political movements Within Islam. Professor Litwak is a professor at the Department of Middle Eastern History and director of the Alian Center. for Iranian stududies at Tel Aiv University And he is one of the foremost scholars certainly in Israel and beyond on modern Shia Islam and on Islamist movements and especially Islamist anti Semitism in the world with many publications in both fields And we're going to talk about anti Semitism in that world from the origins of the Muslim Jewish encounter all the way into the modern age Before we do that, I want to share with you that this episode is sponsored by an individual who hased to remain anonymous but ask me to share this message I was invited to hear a former IDF officer blinded in a Hamas tunnel speak about the Israel Gide Dog Center. I wish to highlight this incredible organization It is far more than a place for adorable puppies. It's a lifeline for people across Israel as the country's only internationally accredited guide dog and serervice organization It is transforming the lives of Israelis every day by providing guide doogs that restore independence and safety, for the blind and visually impaired PTSD service dogs that bring stability and healing to IDF veterans and emotional support dogs that offer comfort to children with special needs and families coping with trauma. Thank you so much to that sponsor and I urge you and encourage you to visit the Israel Guide Dog Center and contribute to the very important work that they do I personally know soldiers who were wounded in the last three years of war, whether it's in Lebanon or Gaza. And this is just it's a wonderful thing to contribute to. And thank you to that sponsor I'd also love to invite everyone to join our Patreon and subscribe to our sububstack. If you're interested in asking the questions that guide the topics we choose to talk about, including the questions we'll be addressing today That's where you do it. Those are communities that are discussing rich, interesting questions, challenging us, you Congratulating us for episodes they love and challenging episodes they disagree with. We read the comments, we respond to the comments, We learn from those comments. and you get to take part in monthly live streams where I answer your questions live Join us at wWW. patreon d. com slash askhaveave anything or Havivgur. sububstack. com thoseose links are all going to be in the show notes Maail, how are you Fine as far as it can be of these days I want to Start our story at the beginning And we'll lay this out. We'll go piece by piece right up to the present day How did early Islam Really, you know, the origins, the first the parts of the earliest days of Islam we don't even know much about because the Quran is a collection set down a little bit after the life of Muhammad. How did early Islam view Jews? What in the Quran in the Hadith, in the experience of Muhammad's conflict with the Jewish tribes in Arabia became the foundation for later anti Jewish attitudes in the Muslim world When the Prophet Muhammad reached Medina from Mecca He encountered three Jewish tribes in Medina. Apparently at the beginning He tried to attract them to his mission. He saw himself as a One more link in his long circle chains of divine prophets And he wanted to appeal to the Jews to accept his mission thereby therefore, for instance, he adopted or accommodated certain Jewish practices. For instance, he initiated that the first The direction of prayer would be told Jerusalem he founded the day of fasting to be equivalent to Yngkipo that is set on the Akipo The Jews of Medina rejected him. That is they don't recognize him as a prophet because according to Jewish belief, prophecy had ended with the destruction of the temple So this led to, I would say, alienation and anger by the prorophet Muhammad against the Jews. This was one issue. The other issue was Pppadly at least one Jewish tribe controlled the local market in Medina. The prophet had to sustain his followers. and there was apparently an economic competition between the prorophet and the Jewish Jewish tribes. So what we had inst self cooperation, we had now animosity. rivalry or rivalry animosity and then prophet turned against the Jewish tribes. He fought them one by one, he defeated All three Jewish tribes The first two where you can say expelled. The third tribe, Banuur Raiza was the largest Jewish tribe, not only were they defeated The prorophet then decided to slaughter all the Jewish men And all the Jewish women and children were sold to slavery Then another point was that the prophet defeated Conquered. the oasis of Hyper, which was inhabited by Jews and again turned these Jews into you can say subservent to Muslims So what we see under the prophet Muhammad are two features in the Quran. early pass of the Quran The prorophet speaks about the children of Israel and because the prophet adopts Jewish Prophets, Moses, Abraham U and David and Solomon who are regarded as Muslim prophets But then with this growing more negative attitude toward the Jews as the conflict with the Jews evolves And now the Quran becomes more hostile to Jews. Let me say that there are Apparently pass more anti Jewish passages in the Quran than against Christians perception in the Qan against Jews and Christians and Jews Christians are mistaken what Isaming term called Aldalin. that they simply took the wrong path Jews are wse. Jews have God's wrath upon them because they in a way and against distorted Gods real scriptures, they distorted God's real messages and therefore they were destined to be punished by God. and because because they ejected the Prophet Muhammed So the attitude toward The Jews in the Qwan is more hostile than it is taught Christians And it is more negative. After the death of the prophet when the Muslims I mean Dominated Arabia The second caliph Omar F of all, expelled all the Jews from the Aran peninsula decided that the Jews could not live in the Arab peninsula because Araagia is again the land of the two you know what's called Harmain that is the two Hly s sanctuities of Islam So Jews cannot live in this land the same time Omar, when he was the builder of the Arab Empire, decided the rule Tod non Muslims that is Christians and Jews Basically they were given security for their life and property They were allowed to practice their religions freely on those issues let's say that would provoke Muslims. It is certain limitations, but Uh it's seem to be provoking Muslims, but otherwise they could worship their religions freely There were various discriminatory measures against Christians had to pay special tax calledia Thanks There were originally various limitations. For instance, they could not build new synagogues. they couldn't at some point they had to walk with the special cloth to mark them and could not ride horses, et cetera. This is called the rules of the dema, that is of the people who are under Islamic protection They enjoy protection, but they suffer restrictions and certain discriminations So what you can say is that under Muslim rule, shortly I mean after the prophet is that Jews enjoy tolerance, not equality, but tolerance Tolers come a position of su Muslim superiority The benevolent Muslims allow the non Muslims to live according to the religer with some discrimination We do not see under Islamic rule in these centries active persecutions of Jews. S same way we saw for instance in Europe eventh century, very much I would say until the eighteenth century early night all the way. So that's those hundreds of years Yes,. Well, there were some exceptions, you know, there were two there there was a radical Islamic movement in Morocco. andmurabbitun or Midun. perersecuted Jews. That was my next question. I wanted to ask you about that. Let me lay out the question U I am a Jewish that Jewish philosophy student at Hebrew University. and we learned the life of Rambam, the greatest of rabbis And Lambum's story is the story of the son of one of the great rabbis of Muslim Spain. And the Mahedun rise in Morocco, they take Spain And most of the Jews are fleeing, they're forced there's you know, forced conversion to Islam. Many Jews flee north to Christian lands to Provenance. And the Maimon family, Rambam's father, goes into the lands of Islam possibly to take care of the Jews there who were living under intense intense discrimination and violence and brutality. There's some possibility, the one professor argued that Ramam actually was forcibly studied in a Madrasah as you know to pretend to convert to Islam in his youth And then finally arrives in the lands of in the kingdom of Saladin in Cairo, in Saladin's empire, there there is much more tolerance. and so he is allowed to return to being a Jew, essentially. And so that is a story that for me characterizes just because it's he's the most famous rabbi in the history of the Jewish bookshelf. That is the story that characterizes an incredibly tenuous fragility where yeah, Saladin was absolutely that story of tolerance you're describing, not just for Jews But the Mohedon of Morocco and Spain went were the opposite What is it actually? it what What is it to be an ordinary Jew in those years? Is Rambom representative In some ways, yes, some ways not. I would say by and large again Yeah There was certainly discrimination against Jews. although we have to say that discrimination varied. countountries . someome rulers were more And des on preserving the laws of discrimination, some code less Some could be bed to relax discrimination. too give you an example, okay, The Di rules prohibit Jews from building new synagogues But of course, synagos rebiled throughout history under Musin rule That is Some rulers were insisted on maintaining this res, some ignored them the same thing with the dress. There were period in where Jews were supposed to have some, let's say Mark color. You others not, we see it, by the way, that some Muslims complain that Joe Zump preserve this laws Now to give an example, The fourteenth century Muslim scholar Hiban Timel, a very rigid hardline scholar, very prolific who lived in Damascus, he fled from Baghdad from the Mongols Stle in Damascus. veryery important scholar He complains about the frivolity of Muslim women. And he found the reason. He said, Muslim women are frivolous because Go to the public bathhouse where they meet Jewish women They become friends and then we see the bad influence of Jewish women over these Muslim women. Now, you can take it in two ways Evenenya certainly doesn't like Jews, okay? For him, of course, Jews are at fault If not also say that implicitly he acknowledges N not only coexistence, but maybe friendship between Jews and Muslims o. So you could see both sides. Now tooleraners was a Certainly you can say implicit tension or pressure on Jews to convert all the time because converts receit benefits. Not only did cont good converts know fully integrate in Islamic society, and by the way, some converts reach the highest positions as viziers. Now in Islam, the Moment person converted, it was a full fledged Muslim, no one cared about his ancestors Now, if person converted, he would get the entire inheritance of his parents, excluding his siblings, okay who remain Jewish So there were all there was always some tension. and again, there was some discrimination. But you can also see, for instance, to give an example because Muslim law It is a little bit more liberal than Jewish law regarding a law of inheritance for women. We the situation in the Middle Aes where Jewish women prefer to go to a Muslim court. Also under Ottomas, prefer to go to a Muslim court in order to get some part of the inheritance than to go to the rabbinical court. So much so that we have Jewish rabbis. urging other rabbis they'll be much more generous to women So they will not go to the Muslim court. Now the Fet thatist women believe that Muslim the Muslim court was a refuge an indicator that again, not all this was a very mixed seeee a picture with some positive but also negative elements. Now the Mahedun in men without the exception, okay, they are the worst of the worst. On the other hand, to describe the Muslim Jewish relations as a golden age of harmony and brotherhood We they all singing together with love. this is nonsense. okay. We know today it is not a true story. The Wars, by the way, would say the Mohedon and also in Iran Iran is a Shi country, not a Sunni country. Shi Iran from the sixteenth century until the nineteenth century was the least tolerant Muslim country in the world against or Jews you describe that? giveive us details In Iran, because of the unique elements of Shiiaism, they insisted, I would say they almost obsession with Ritual durity Jews were regarded as ritually impure which meant not only social discrimination. For instance, in Iran there was no Jews to distinguish between Jews and non Jews Jews were not supposed to wear socks. okay. they had to or they could not trim their beards U was Jews could not open stores in the Bazaar Many Jews could work you as padlers, but not on stores in the bazaarars. and when a Jewoy is ritually impure means that the Jew touches certain foods or water, a Muslim cannot touch this wood. It has to be Cleansed. This is Iran under the Shavids starting in what was it fifteen oh one Steen oh one, but it took a while now. For how long does this J Jews live like this in Iran Sufff of it collapsed in seventeen twenty two, but some of these discriminatory measures continued until the nineteen twenties I can show you some interesting anecdotes from the nineteen thirties It reached it's two picks. One is that in the seventeenth century under under Shah Abas II, about a third of the Jewish community in Iran was forced to convert to Islam They disappeared, letsews In eighteen thirty nine, the entire Jewish community of Mashhad was forced to convert to Islam because they accused the Jew of slaughtering a dog d a Muslim ritual procession in order to make the procession ritually impure and therefore invalid Interestingly enough, the Jews in Mashad lived as crypto Jews for one hundred years Living that life. Muslims outwardly, Jews inwardly, by the way, merry among themselves only Some fled from Mashrad settled in Buhara and other places, but Afghanistan, but most stayed in Buhara they meant crypto Jews until they were allowed to return to Judaism in the nineteen thirties under the secular Rzashah. There was also a mess pokegr against the Jewish community in Pabriis. Dude Apparently in eighteen oh nine. at some point you don know exact the exact dates Um It's so, by the way, this obsession with purity that some Muslim clerics rule that when it trains Jews should not go outside Because if they go and the rain fall on their head and thenall coast of the ground, the ground will be contaminated. So mostls won't be able to walk. these rulings were issued in the nineteenth century or seventeenth century onward And they remained invalid until then mid twentieth century. I met people who came from Iran and told me that this was practiced when they were children Iran was the exception the worst case and again Mahedon another case If you look at the Ottomans, for instance, under the Ottomans, again, Jews which enjoyed and tolerance. The Otumomans were the only empire that opened its gates. to the Jews are expelled from Spain Was they full equality? No. wasas the major tolerance? Yes. Jews you could at the same time Jews spoke Turkey, but they also maintain, of course their language, their own language Nadino in the Ottoman Empire in the Balkans So This was, I would say the picture. and then in the nineteenth century the Ottomans also gave Jews legal equality not necessarily in practice, but a stadistical to the law Thin imperialism reach the Middle East. The Jews arelike the Muslims. Welcome the European imperialists. For me, it shows that they still felt as a minority. They felt insecure. They preferred the protection and benevolence of the European imperialists, be it the French in North Africa and all the British in Iraq over the a majority That shows you that if the Jews in Algeria welcome the French and took wholeheartedly friendren citizenship shows you that they did not feel Any solidarity, brotherhood with the Muslims They certainly did not feel that they were like their brother They felt like a minority I was challenged once by somebody trying to lead me into a conversation about a traditional Muslim belief. that comes very early on in the Quran that the Jews falsify their scripture that there is a special you've touched on this, that there's a special kind of treachery in the Jews, a lying of they received a revelation The Christians, misunderstood their revelation maybe the Jews, received a revelation and then warped it, changed it made it not accurate. And so the Jews are kind of protypical. they're an archetype of dishonesty and refusal of divine off divine trruth and divine revelation. There are pograms. There's a pogram inat in eighteen thirty four. There's a pogram in Rhodes. There's the blood Lbel of Damascus. There are just again and again and again these spasms of violence. that's in the Ottoman period, which is remembered by Ottoman Jews, remembered by Sepfhardi Jews, by Turkish Jews As a period of calm as a period of c. toward the end, the emmpire is toppling everybody's suffering. There is this memory that things were tolerant and yet we have the spasms. We have this recurring argument. We have it's not just Mani' Rambam's childhood. It's his letters to Jewish communities that feel underue pressure from Islam. It's all these things that you describe, you know, you just described inheritance laws in which if one member of the family converts to Islam, they inherit everybody. everybody's things and the others are disinherited because they remained Jewish. Well, centuries and centuries and centuries of that will ultimately dissolve families and dissolved communities. And that's without the forced conversion, mass forced conversion that you saw in Iran under the Safavid. Um And what triggers me to ask the question in that way is your point about colonialism Europeans show up and the Jews are immediately excited about it because there's a sense that post revolutionary France is gives equality, something that Jews could never even hope for or imagine. Islam is a religion of social order in which the Jews are from the beginning by the great prophet of God Hself positioned in a lower class U was it a good experience or was it a bad experience? or What in between? It is very politicized today on both sides, by the way. thoseose who present harmony and ideal to ideal as the situation and those who want to present it as a period of fourteen centuries of constant persecution. I think both are mistaken Now there are you mentioned before that yes, Jews are regarded as those distorting the scriptures, therefore they are evil Pons are simply mistaken. even worse There's a whole theme or genre in Islamic literature called Israel Liyad That is of suppose Jews were supposedly converted to Islam but in fact remained Jewish and they enter this time in order to distort Isan from with sin So that many of the problems that are sub developed in Islam are a result of this supposedly Jewish Jewish penetration. Now you can also see it in another way, by the way. in every split Tapedin Islam. in Sic and History, there iss this tendency always to find the person who is guilty of the split. okay. There's supposedly one have The person was the guilty person By and large, ninety nine percent of these cases is a jke. Whenever have the major split between Sunnis andhias, of course, it's the fault of a Jew. okay? We are splits within Shisim, it's the fault of a Jew. That is the fact that you always And and Ch it. everyvery bad thing to a Jew shows you there's a problem And we cannot deny Again, at the same time If you look at Jewish most Jewish communities, by the way, were not you know, massacred or murdered and did not suffer constant persecutions yes, there was discrimination By the way, Similar to Christans Christians were not preferred. By the way, sometimes Jews were preferred under the Ottomans, in the early centuries were Ottoman parentod, let's say eighteenth century Jews fared better than Christians because Christians were suspected of being agents of Europe Jewels were loyal And thereforejoy in fact, they enjoyed more toleras than Christians under under the Otomus I would say the picture is mixed There positive and negative elements. Now the change comes by the way, in the nineteenth century. This is a different story And o, so let's Yeah we see the entrance of anti Semitism into the Middle East. So at what point does traditional Islamic anti Judaism, the Dimi system point does that transform into something that is much closer to modern anti Semitism. In other words, when we really begin to see the protocols of the elders of Zion is already by the early twentieth century translated into Arabic, a kind of European inflected modern anti Semitism that is already core to Islamic conversations, Islamic politics, Arab politics, Muslim world, you know, public affairs The change cly takes place in the nineteenth century. and it is the result of two processes. One is European influence, cultural influence on the Middle East For instance, the eighteenth forty blloodlbon in Damascos. was invented by Christian Max. and then developed in Damascus. So it was a European influence that brought anti Semitic themes to the Middle East. O onene process The other process in the nineteenth century liquid is wayay For many centuries Muslims were tolerant toward Jews and Christians because they were powerful, self confident. When you have powerful and self confident, you can and Afford to be generous toward others. peopleople are weaker than you. In the nineteenth century Muslims begin Fr the ninthh century to today by Wedesday, The Musly world is indeed We care N economically, technologically, scientifically, lagging behind the West It's also suffered from Military defeense in Pis, right They can seventeen eighty from the seventeh century, sixteen eighty three is the beginning, but then eighteenth century sevenenty seventy two major defeat by the Russians and from then on, a whole series of defeats by Muslims off most by Europeans Muslims feel threatened by the West. The moment they feel threatened, they become less tolerant even worse in because of the economic penetration of of European powers of the Middle East Non Muslim minorities prospered much more than Muslims Christians much more than Jews, but also did Jews. Can you explain that? There are the treaties signed between the Ottomans and European powers and capitulations that granted European citizens, subjects of European empires legal immunity in part to bring European trade into the empire. But you're saying people actually living in the empire. In other words, ancient Christian communities in the empire prospered in a way that the Muslims living next to them didn't what causeed that? Well the capitulations, by the way were given the Sist in centrum, Ottos was very powerful again out of generosity, the powerful Ottomanans helping this inferior Christians to make do business in the Ottom Empire. They did not understand the consequences In the nineteenth century it beces a very powerful economic pool of Europeans But what we see that if European companies enter the Middle East merchants, okay, they purchase things Who want did they deploy? They would deploy Christians M to less extent, it's easier for them to work with Christians and to less extent with Jews So Jews and Christians or Christian Jews Posered form the link with the Europeans, where Muslims did not But now Muslims see themselves I would say under dual attack. First of all, we are under attack by the powerful milities European militaries, then by the powerful eonount European economies And it also subject to European cultureal influence. The self confidence is shaken, The tolerance disappears. How do you see it? eight in sixty There's a large scale massacre against Christians in Damascus Because, by the way, also where they're supposed to give J the Christians legal equality That led to fury against the minorities All all you needed was one economic crisis and by the way, the Christians made a mistake, they took the legal equality seriously. So they began to hold processions with crosses and dring church glls. they were now allowed Jews being a much smaller community, much more cautious did not provoke the Muslims. They knew that, you know, got to be cautious So we saw in eighteen sixty large scale massacre, maybe five thousand people Christians were massacred by the Muslims in Damasccus a smaller massacre in Aleppo, another small massacre in Musul against Christians becausecause the Christians violated their right or the right social hierarchy. A very importantent landmark is eighteen ninety four, before the advent of political Zionism, you the Phines Congressus eighteen ninety six, before the advent of political Zionism, the first major anti Semitic tract was translate from German to eric It was called it is the vicious antisemitic book by the Germans author called Huling called Talmud Yude, which speaks about this evil Talmud that you know contains various machinations against Christians, etcetera. and it was just like to Erbic So now antisiitism it becomes subly scientific because now it has a solidly basis The major turning point is the First World Bar. The last B break Muslim Epire is destroyed The Kate, the symbol of Hamic Unity, affity is abolished. Wse than that, European powers now conquer or control the entire Midle East And you have the Jewish community or the IsZist movement receiving international recognition, first by the Buffffo Declaration, then in anactctive twenty two by the League of Nations that accept gives the British the minedit of palestine to implement the Balul Declaration. Now, Muslims in these years find ourselves in a new world which I cannot understand. The whole world, the old world collapsed. everything the picture that we had the world collapsed, shad a computing. How do you explain it? What happened Now societies in crisis are prone to conspiracy theories. Conspiracy theories make everything clear. Everything better has happened to us is a result of this powerful, sinister group of people who are behind the scenes. They dominate everything, they manage, they manipulate everything. What better than the Jews rabic? Now add to that First World War. leads to the post Cyic revolution, discussion of the Aburg Gampa that is All of Europe is sitting with conspiracy theories and then comes this horrible anti Semitic track, the proticles of that design that was invented and forged by the Russian Secret police in nineteen oh five to explain The upheaval in Russia attributed to the Jews What we call a white Russia h is anti Bolshevik, Russian anti Semit, Sergey Nilos brought it to Western Europe And he became a best seller in Europe in the nineteen twenties indndeed, During the ranking twenties, the ports were translated twice to Arabic And since then, they become one of first of all, they are am one of the most popular books all over the world. But they become extremely popular in the our world In the Muslim world, there are over fifty nine printed editions of the protocols in Muslim countries, not to mention now the spread in the internet which reaches many millions of people. So here I would say the post World W period is the turning point. The Muslim world is in distress. The Muslim world is in cultal predicament. Now, let me explain also the cultural predicament, which I did not prove before. Reall to Islamic belief Islam is the superior religion that has superseded all previous religions. It is God's final, most perfect world, revelation to or message to humanity. One of the theological proofs of Islam superiority over other religious was it also it is Islamic civilization was more powerful Because Islam always had Islam was in the beginning, a religious community was also a political community and politics was an important element in Islamic tradition and religion The success of the Islamic poly in history was a proof of its Yeah justust because Indeed, for many centuries, Muslims could look at the world and say, indndeed, we are superior. We are more powerful, more advanced than Europeans. and that was true until the eighteenth century when the tips turn against the scale tip against the Muslims since the nineteenth century to this day When Muslims find themselves lagging behind the West, being defeated by the West And everybody isonist This theological concept is shaken It is challenged. How can it be that Godd's Chosen religion, God's superior religion. is infelo Politically, militarily, economically, scientifically, technologically to rainfiders It is is it is wrong. It is against the right order of things I told that the Jews powerful than Muslims Then in such a predicament Conspiracy theories provide answers. We are victims of a very power fful Uh group of people again who dominate the world behind the scenes and everything bad happens to us is their fault, not ours. So what happens in the twentieth century And how does this relationship with the Jews express itself In the twentieth century, Muslims suffered their worst predicaments. The search for the what has gone wrong with us? And how do we solve how do we get out of our crisis goes back to the nineteenth century? Jamaladin and Lavvani and others Now, by the way, Gan did not deal with the Jews. He didn't care about the Jews. is one of it is disciple or friend or Muhammed Abdu, by the way, again, doesn't do so much with the Jews But although it says, unless we Muslims take care of ourselves, we'll find ourselves in the same situation of the Jews. That is the Jews are the symbol of being humiliated, miserable groups. He warns against it, but he's not again, he doesn't care so much about the Jews. Jews are not They're out to reform Islam They had to return this loun to to the kind of piety that it would have that it'll need to rise up again Ironically, Roshidrida, Abdu's disciplple, by the way orts Drifus when's the Difus case in France, Rita publishes articles in support of Dryifus as a victim of persecution Yeah, not that he's a friend of Jews, but again, Jews are not a problem for me as an example of Islamic tolerance, by the way, he says, this dryifer thing could never happen in Islam The change, I would say is the twentieth century with the Dception of Ottoman Empire Tmendous sense of loss I should have said, by the way, There iss a statement in Arabic about Islam. whichich is very powerful. It says Islam should reign supreme. Nothing can be about Islam Allam Yalu Wi. This is a theological concept. Now what happens is that when centurally Islam no longer reigns supreme on the country Islam is suffering, is defeated, humiliated, etceta The worst situation is it is also the Muslims or many Muslims see that in the modern period Jews are very successful. Think of Einstein Think of fed Carl Marx was an anti Semite himself by when his father converted Karl Matus is anti Semitite, but for anti Semites he is Jewish The Muslims, not many Muslims see modernity associate Jews with moderity. Too many Jews are successful in modernity and they associate then many aspects of modernity with the Js againain, Einstein Droit And we see, by the way, in current Muslim anti Semitic die tribes the Jews are responsse of many of the evils of modernity. Zym is in adds to it Oh I would say is again the major Turning point Because now Muslims are defeated by Jews nineteen forty eight is and a major trauma for many Muslims, how could it be that six hundred thousand Jews could defeat five other Arab armies There two can be two possible answers to this. One is maybe there's something deeply wrong in our society. that is we are disorganized, we are we have corrupt governments, we have corrupt systems, our education is lacking et cetera, etcera. We are victims of a very powerful force We will not feed the bas six ten thousand jews were defeated by a sinister ce it actually dominates the wood. How can you understand How can you explain that was the Communist Soviet Union and Capitalist America joined together in nineteen forty seven to vote for a petition and for the subion of the Jewish state It must have been the out of a conspiracy and nineteen forty eight the humiliation leads to jump in anti Semitry. It starts before again, Hasan al Al Bana the founder of Muslim budders was anti Semite By the way he founds the Muslim brothers in the nineteen twenties and he's already nineteen reading antis Semitic literature, writing about it. Yeahah Yes, nineteen eight nineteen twenty eight. He founded it nineteen thirties it becomes a best movement certainly is vehemid anti Zionist, but also becomes anti Jewish. By the way, in nineteen forty eight, the Muslim brothers not only pressure the Egyptian government to work this isal. but They wage a pogron against the Jewish community in Cairo Again, why? Because Muslims feel them. For Muslim being defeated by Pins is painful But it still can be explained. But then you' heit by Jews or usually sort of the lost of the low Under Muslim rule who are subject to Muslim domination, all of a sudden they defeat er sometometimes when I speak to Ameran audience, Ill say, okay, no when the LA. Lakers lose to the New York to the Boston Celtics. painful. Tolerable But if the L Las would lose to a team from a small town in Wisconsin, okay, B Watosa, that would be major humiliation. And is exactly what happens in the Middle East And then we see after nineteen forty eight, I would say Eh, uh, again, um a major change in the spread of antiemitism in the violence of anti Semitism And also again, in the Islamization of anti Semitism, again becomes much more intertwined with Islam Islam modern Islamist ideology. In fact, it becomes an inherent cential element of modern Islamist ideology them It it starts before, as we mentioned, but it becomes much more after nineteen forty eight The conflict in this land, o, the Jewish Palestian conflict, Zionist Palestinian conflict is essentially originally a national conflict Two national movements, two peopers appying for the same for the same land, both belieelve that this land is theirs. This is their homeland It was actually a battle over again territory, country, etcet. It has released elease elements. Certainly Jewish Longing for the Holy land for Earth Israel had a very powerful religious Fation no question about it For Muslims, I mentioned it before Jewish sovereignty is unacceptable. Jewish sovereignty is an affront against Islam Jewsn cannot have sovereignty over a territory. Jews were destined by God to be dispersed and humiliated by the nation. so Jew sovereignty is in a frront against God He another element Jerusalem, a holy city for both religions or be peoples It is a national conflict, but Herlist elements which complicated it Then in the nineteen twenties, the leader of the Palestinian National movement, Hjimin Husseini Who was by the way, a rabid ant Iemite. I U us religion then as a force to mobilize the people He understands that nationalism is still very weak among most Arabs and Palestinians. and the A tool that can mobilize people, motivate people for the struggle is religion. And then Hajamin begins to use the slogan Alaka is in danger. The Jews threaten Alxhamos. They want to take over Alshamos, they want to destroy it and just swam it into a Jewish temple. He infuses religious elements into the compt. That is this conflict now becount betweenun Isam and Jews Now under Hajminah Husseimi, and I also say under Yasa Arabfat It is nationalism using religion. Religion as a tool or religion as a force of popular mobilization Yesir Uses to quote from the Quran Okay to describe some of the elements with the juice although again, you always describe this as a nation crisis. Islamization means that you describe the conflict as between Islam and Jewh and Judaism between Muslims and Jews and the struggle wages around the that is of The Holy land Epecially Jerusalem The Jews want to againgain undermine Islam. It is a Jewish fight against Islam. And this hearkens back to the stuff we talked about at the very beginning. In other words, Jews as treacherous, Jews as faking the revelation, Jews as resisting and refusing the truth of God. thoseose come back as immutable traits of Jews. We are dealing Hamas The very world that says we have to go back to the Islam of our forefathers, if we want to regain geopoliticalominance, Now says Oh, and by the way, their enemy, the Jews are our enemy, the Jews. There's something on J had been enemies of some from the beginning. This is here from A all day long in the beginning. The Jews wanted the prophet Muhammad to I wanted to prevent him from spreading this, by the way Muhammad died because he was poisoned by his Jewish wife. This is one of the leedgs that developed in Islamic tradition He survived the poisoning effect, but it affected his health. okay So you see the Jews were always like they were sinister. know Jewish wife supposed to convert to Islam, but in fact remained Ven vengeant So she wanted to take revenge against the prophet. She poisoned him See J always use this say immoral ways to fight to fight Islam. So yes, the modern Islamist movement say see Jewish enmity toward Islam goes back then No It is this continuous Jewish and mal Islam From the seventh century to this morning J to just to clarify this point People who argue that Islam is fundamentally set against Jews that anti Semitism is core to Islam that the Jews are innately the opposite of what Islam is Those people are not anti Muslim Westerners necessarily. Those are Hamas themselves. That is an argument made within u the, you know, Solfist, Islamist political world with that is what it is that they are claiming. And that is what we see in terrorism against Jewish communities in Britain, terrorism against Jewish communities in the United States and all over the world in Bandai Beach So just, you know, there's this sense in Western conversations about Muslim anti Semitism that to say that somehow Islam and Judaism are set against each other in some kind of permanent way is an evil version of hatred of Muslims It is in fact the opinion of Hamas. not only of Hamas, B the way, all Islamist stay thinkers, all Islamist movements. Wh may need The fnder of the Sinic Republic, the ideidolog of the Tamic Republic in the first page of his most important book The rule of the Jews in the first page says that Islam from its beginning was afflicted by the Jews because the Jews f against Islam and they wanted to foil the mission of the prophet Muhammad C you take us us take us deep into Iran. So now we're this is, you know, you're really one of the great experts on this. You wrote a book Know Thy enemy. I have it somewhere on my shelf, which is not that we should know our enemy Iran, but in fact, how Iranian Shia thinking about the other, about who the enemy is is influences Iranian ideology. The Iranian state, okay is antiemitism, specifically, Jews, obsession with Jews and not framed as Israel. Israel is the immediate challenge of a Jew of the Jews. The Jews are the great chan is a pillar of the Islamic ity of the regime. It is deep, it is foundational. And that's something I learned from you. Can you walk us through that? What are the Jews to Homani and to the regime the last forty seven years of the regime that he founded First of all, I would say yes, anti Semitism is a very important pillar of the Islamic ideology of the Islamic Republic to go back to as I mentioned, I discussed is before Let's say that In the twentieth century There were two developments in Iran. On the one hand, the Palabist who are secular rememove many of the legal restrictions against Jews Jews were allowed to go to schools and get jobs, etca. moved out of the Jewish ghetto. Indeed, the Jewish commommittee in Iran enjoyed unprecedented prosperity on the pal of rule In many ways you could compare them to the Jku community in America At the same time there was also anti Jewish traditions or strong modern anti Semitism. If you look at for the most illustrious Iranian oruthent such Sadiha Dayyat was a raid anti Semit. in all his books or plays There's always this Jew who's a liar, decere, stingy Crok, et cetera, et cetera. S same thing you see in many other films and books. So it always existed also exist Homeini was an anti Semite. wsall from the beginning In the nineteen fifties and sixties, he always complained that Jews are taking over Iran was very host time too. the shop. becausecause of his policies, and he accused again that Sa was collaboring with the Jews, etcet When Humini now became a revolutionary, of course I um, integrated this anosito Jews into his overall ideology and Fr sces And this is As I mentioned in his book, he first first book, first page he says Jews conspired against Islam from the beginning Three pages later He expled in the modn period, the Muslim world has been under an attack by you could say an unholy trrinity. the West The Jews and Westernized Iranians. This unholy trrinity wants to destroy Islam. This unholy trinity wants to prevent Islam for fulfilling its mission. Why because they they understand it Islam thanks to its moral percepts and laws is the major obstacle against their sinister desires designs to take over the world. And Homani explained it all the calamities that has be fallen upon the Muslims in the modern period are the result of this Jewish Western conspiracy of these conspiracies is Zionism that is Humini and all other Islamist movements, by the way, don't make any distinction between Zionism and Judaism. For them Zionism is the practical implementation of Judaism When Humini seized power in Iran and became the lead of the Sanic Republic in Iran, he explained that in fact we make a distinction between Jews and Zionism. We're not anti Jewish Judaism is a protected religion. In fact, there's a Jewish member in the Iranu Parliament who is always anti Zionist, always tax Israel on every occasion, you see he's put there, by the way. It's not like authentically elected. He's put there by the regime so they can point to him. At the same time, the Samit Republic in Iran in its official publications I an Islamic discourse Inman, The wholeing Islamic discs inman is Sowly in the submittit The Isamicab of youan published Protocles are this ofign. And it is to printed publication, not to mention frequent use in internet and by I know hundreds of ways, okay Theign aopolography Ran The seemin is the idea of the bloodlabel. You haveani Iranian TV, official TV osive scholars who tell you that in fact the Jews do use blood of little Christians for ritual purposes By the way, Why didn't you hear about it in the news? It shows you how the Jews control the media. That the fact that there are no evidence of Jewish use of ritual or blood is a proof of the Jewish domination. They are able to hide the truth. The Islamic Republic of Iran is the only country in the world whose official ideology contains Holocaust denine N not only Ahmedinja includroe this su like supune come and e describe the Holocaust as a complete exaggeration Again, invented by the Jews and by the way Americans as well, to hide American atrocities in the war U and not only that Ling Islamic spokesman in the Islamic Republic of Iran Justify the Holocaust There was no Holocaust, but what Hitler did to the Jews was completely justified. as supposedly moderate senior politician like Rf Sainjani, former president Number two men under whomini. plained that in the nineteenth century The Zionist dominated Europe Germany was under the strangerhold of Zionist organizations. Hitler simply liberated Germany from this Zionist strangghold. And they said happened what happened? That is something happened, N know what exactly what it is, not thir or six million But what you see is Rfan Jany he speaks about Zionist domination of nineteenth century Germany Clearly him is Juice He uses gant ism, but in fact, everyone understands he speaks about Jews So Iran is the only country in the world again who se is the protocols denies the hllar cost justifies it to some extent. And now, by the way, we also another very important to other some other important elements. desescribing the Jews as enemies of shei Islam. particularly Judah is responsible for many of the calamities that has befallen upon the Shes. They were the force behind the Sunni animosity toses Jews and historical enemies of Ivan going to antiquity, the genocide the Jews committed against perpetrated against Persions in Biblical time under King Queen Esther And you also have another element that it is essential not only to destroy Israel, but to fight the Jews You know to prepare the ground for the coming of the Messiah It is U This is what the great Israeliistorian Soulfina did. defined as redemptive anti Semitism. That is, you redeem the world by psecing the Jews And today in modern East Iranian i discourse, fighting the Jews. is ascension to redeem humanity to facilitate the coming of the hidden of the Messiah of the Mad. So I want to just ask this. We have studies of antiemitism in the Muslim world Incidentally rare, hard to come by. I think Pgh did something in two thousand eight, A deal. that this huge survey of global anti Semitic sentiment in twenty fourteen Um, there's there's a little bit here and there more recent, but People don't like asking the Muslim world what they think of Jews because they don't like the answers. What do the things that we have seen is compared to the Arab world compared to Indonesia, compared to Malaysia, for example U Iran has relatively low rates of anti Semitic sentiment. and by relatively low, I mean Tough forty seven percent U So the Iran you're describing is Arguably, I'm asking this is a question, half of Iranian society. And then we see in Iran, Iran specifically is very interesting because of course, we're now in war with Iran. The other half of Iranian society is, I guess the half that's producing the protesters, the people who hate the regime, the people who think that anti Semitism is part of a structure that oppresses them much more than it ever oppressed you know, at least since the Jews left after the Revolution oppressed the Jews. Is that a fair assessment? Is Iranian society split in that way on the question of anti Semitism Apparently, I would say probably many Iranians First of all, they have much more urgent problems than Jews. And secondly, because they hate the regime They don't believe they don't believe anything that the regime says. And if the regime is anti Semitic, then of course we mayaybe the trs must be good. They are okay And therefore, yes, we see less open anti Semitism in you know society than we see in other countries because there It is again, anti Semitism is from below And Uh Sama regimes. encourage it or tolerate it Others are not engaging it, o? Indonesia is a very tolerant Muslim country. So what you have antisemitism in Indonesia, by the way, they antisem without Jews, they have never seen a Jew in their life is of only of the most radical movements in the in within industing is sl. But but but Indones Indonesians say things about Jews like Jews control the world banks at rates of ninety percent So its it's the Jew, the abstract Jew, the category of a Jew. They've never Yeahes. So there's nobody pushing back against this in Indonesia, Malaysia For some, I would m to make theistinction between Malaysia Indonesia. Malaysia is much worse But you know, the pres of Indonesia appeared last year in the UN General Assembly and said that we must have peace in the Middle East to ensure Israel's security ended his speech with the word Shalom in Hebrew That is something it is not common among Muslim Buddhs So maybe he doesn't fight anti Semitism actively, but he certainly first of all, you know supportsace with Israel He speaks about the need to ensure his security They something do not find in any ammong any other Arab Buslim leader who speaks about peace with Israel. Yes, they accept Israel. Some they are willing to to live in peace with Israel They don't stressed the need of Iseli security, right? he went further than others. Yes, he doesn't fight antiemitis, probably because he has too many other problems on his plate to and simply fighting is fighting anti anti Semitis So I want to ask I guess the last question And it's a big one. We're seeing a massive rise in anti Semitic rhetoric podcasters in the United States, mass marches in England over the Gaza War Um I know many decent people who joined the marches because they saw terrible scenes from a very painful war. But we also have seen Hezbollah flags all over those marches and Hamas flags all over those marches and organizations where there' no there's no doubt, there's no question. they're explicitly and openly genocidal and anti Semitic And how shall I put this? You're not marching against a war or against a genocide if you are explicitly supporting movements that explicitly call for genocides and are antis Semitic in the insane way that we're describing here that they borrowed from the West U a lot of that A lot of those ideas have come from Muslim immigrant groups. A lot of the core activist groups that push A lot of the anti Semitic ideas not anti Israel. explicit anti Jewish and the levels of anti Semitic sentiment, we have polls of British Muslims. We have polls in the United States. They're again, hard to come by, but every time they happen, they always tell us the same thing. rates of negative sentiment against Jews and of conspiratorial thinking of Jews are through the roof. And a lot of the conspiracies that you get from the Tucker Carlsons and the Candace Owens who are borrowing from, you know mid twentieth century Europe, but where has that stuff gone to hibernate so that it can come back into the world? It went to the Muslim world to hibernate explicitly, literally translating from German to Arabic, from Russian to Arabic, putting it in the major libraries of the Muslim world, and now it's coming back into the West. Thd world is, people who, you know, from the progressive deep left who feel that you have to listen to the Muslim world. You have to listen to the third world They're exposed to this constantly because a lot of what the Muslim world says on these issues is deeply classically European, nineteenth, twentieth century, anti Semitic U whereere is anti Semitism in the Muslim world going in the future What do you do you see it getting much, much worse? Is there any reason for optimism of any kind Well let me just mention one thing which I didn't say before Islamist anti Semitism today is the most openly genocidal anti Semitism It is the most openly movement movement that says openly the need to exseminate the entire Jewish people By the way, they don't use they don't mean warars, they don't use euphemisms. okay. They don't speak about the final solution, resettlement, etceter. They speak openly and explicitly about the need to exterminate the entire Jewish people Oh, for example , for example Tube from us And many other Islamist thinkinkers the need to start to asssemin the Jewish people This is the first time after the Holocaust and by the way now Atiemitism is popular. Movements say speak openly about the need to stimulate the entire people. Now I have to say, I amm very pessimistic Um about the This spread of anti Semitism, partly because again, of the demographic growth Political empowerment of Muslims in Europe, in the U.S and other societies Partly, I would say because what is happening in my view, I'm not an expert on UK or Western antiisemitism. but I believe that what we had in Europe was seventy years yearus in anti Semitism that after the holocracy became, let's say, unfashionable Now it can re emerge But what specifically about Muslim communities is there, for example, we just dealt with U the British Muslim community because of the attacks on Jews there And look and we looked at polls. And it turns out several things. One, there is a huge problem of deep anti Semitism in the British Muslim community. and not, you know, Lebanese and Palestinian and Jordanian expats in Britain, but in fact Pakistanis in Britain It's an Islamic thing. It's not borrowed directly from some kind of experience with Israel And it's immense. it's immense. It's's' it depends on what question you ask. it willll range from a third to two thirds But then there's also a data point that says that the more integrated they feel in British society, the more British they say they are The lower the levels of antiemitism. dramatically. If ninety seven percent of Algerians say the Jews control the world through the banks, then Algerian immigrants are going to bring antiemitism to your country. That is simply part of their culture at this point. It's an almost universal perspective of Algerians But but more importantly than that, can Muslim societies end this? Can they fight this? Can they tackle this? Is there any chance that these Muslim communities in the West or Muslim communities in Islam in the lands of Islam overcome this stuff. We see, for example, the Abraam accccords, the Emmiratis, the Somaliland. I just interviewed the ammbassador of Somaliland was here There is no anti Semitism there. There is, you know, they have all the problems in the world. they are an amazing success story, despite those problems They're just they're not obsessed with the Jews. Is there a way for the Muslim world to find a path out of the conspiratorial thinking that you you've traced. in great detail from the nineteenth century till today, which has a lot of roots all the way back to the very beginning. and which they're bringing in these immigrant waves to the West explicitly, it's the data. If you don't like it, you know, you're arguing against data, not against a Zionist Jewish evil Israeli podcast. Is there a way of hope, a reason to think, a path forward in which I guess I'm saying is sllam cures itself of this on the people who can fight anti Semitism first first and foremost Muslims The way to fight anti Semitism is to somehow explain or convince them Yes, you have many problems, but the solution is not anti Semitism. The solution is attressing you deep socio economic political cultural problems Pedrarchal systems Y' The bad of certain authoritarian traditions or corrupt their asss You want to solve your problems, don't blade mees. This is the easy solution. This is the way out of indeed addressing your problems. U now is It is done by some Muslims today, unfortunately, a small minority It has to be done by them and I would say also by Western governments who should not tolerate it We should not tolerate Islamist anti Semitism in the name of pluralism or being open to know to third world cultures or in the name of multiculturalism Multiculturalism does not justify the theory that you can advocate the killing of another people or you can justify rape against oers. I would say no convince also Europeans and Jose are the first, you'll be the second, you know, We have always been the first victims We are the cananari in in the coal miner, okay? that we are the first victims of of intolerance or rapid movements You will be next. you will be next unless you' dearress it H Is it easy? No Does it have a chance Yes Oh it Am I certain of success and'm not very optimistic, but I hope May Litvak, thank you so much for joining me. We know a little bit more and You know, you didn't end with everything's going to be fine. donon't worry But that's our situation Unfortunately Thank you for joining me Y' m welcome