Final Thoughts and Closing Remarks

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You can't beat it Terms apply, see optimum d. com for details Astonishing Legends Network The views and opinions expressed by hosts and listeners on the Astonishing Dead lettter Office are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of Astonishing Legends productductions, the Astonishing Legends Network or any affiliated entities or guests And something unexplainable happens to you It can make you feel isolated or alone But trust us, you're not For over a decade, you've been sending your strange stories to astonishing legends. And now it's time for our fellow legenders to hear them too Join us weekly in Blanket Fortiana as we dig through your intriguing messages to the astonishing Dead Letter Oice Tonight's episod pitched and bleue Tonight, we're headed out to the Salt Lake Valley and not to the older part of town, which I've been to and is amazing, but to a part of town with a home, in this case anyway, that was built just twenty years ago, two thousand six. When were you in Salt Lake City, sir? Back when in my former career in advertising, I went there frequently because I had some clients in the area and also a very good friend who lived there at the time and lives there once again now And was there anything odd about it? I don't know. It just everything feels kind of new and clean and you know, it's kind of like theuratory the version of purgatory that you see in the movie defending your life Well, that's love. Very nice malls and yes. Unfortunately you do have to have money and defending your life, Right That' right And you could e as many pies as you wanted. But this is what's interesting to me about the story from the start. Everybody has the assumption that oh, it has to be an old storory old town, know Charleston. Yes and an old jailer, an infirmary there or someplace where there was trauma, a Civil warar battlefield. But You really don't. As I always say, the assumption is that that oh, you know, I always go to my friend who said, you know, my Honda is not haunted You don't want to get got a couple of VPs. It's like, it doesn't matter They're floating around everywhere. If you were a spirit, why wouldn't you be just floating around wherever you pleased? I think that's the same. But here there are some towns. I do believe that are More hospitable to these types of activities sppirit wise or maybe even thin places or portals. And in this case, we're going talk about a specific place in a house. but yeah, just in Salt Lake City itself, has it earned that reputation? It's like, well, I don't think it needs to. and it doesn't have to be steeped in spooky history. Yeah, peopleople just they see something old fashioned with a big porch and gothic columns or whatever. that's not always how it goes. Yeah Right, It could just be the land as I've come to learn too, that a brand new house or structure has been on, and also you have to realize Native folks have been around stomping on the terra for tens of thousands of years, perhaps long before you got there and thought it was all nice, clean and squeaky and free of any kind of spiritual shenanigans. Yes. But in terms of houses, yeah, Our storytellers's house is practically brand new. So that doesn't really apply to this, right? Because you know, the house has no past. Then where's the stuff coming from? Well, like I said, it could just be the land, it could be the air. it could be the people bringing stuff with them. That's right. could have hitchhikers. That's the question that hangs over this whole dead letter. Let's set the stage a little bit. The Salt Lake Valley sits in a kind of bowl, the Wassatch Range, walling it off to the east and the Ochre Mountains to the west. And the great Salt Lake is spread out off to the northwest. It's amazing, especially when you fly into it now. The whole valley floor is the bed of an ancient lake, Lake Bonneville, which drained away thousands of years ago and there's a bunch of sediment there, which you'll see and some water, but that's receding very, very quickly. And the Wasach fault runs right along the foot of these mountains. And then in the mid two thousands, there was a building boom And subdivisions got thrown up all across that valley, bigig what they call rambler homes or as we say in the southeast ranch style houses. And they say that in California too. Yeah, there you go. in a lot of cases with deep basements Yeah. basements, boy that's saving my bacon here because you don't get that everywhere. it's funny when you people it's like, none of our houses here have basements. And there's reasons for that. I think in Las Vegas, if you traveled not too far from the state of Utah But I heard also putting in a swimming pool. Yes. You have to have insurance because you can do a whole dig and I forgot the name of the type of earth, but it's so solid. and hard It will stop your digging immediately, and then you're just out of luck I can't remember where that's called. but somebody' explained that to me. It's like, yeah so some places You have basements and others you do not depending on the the geology of the place But I love a good basement. How many of us have fond memories growing up? Ping video games, watching old ladies movies, things like that. Honestly, I had kind of this exact setup from this story. When I was the same age as our seindnder, my mom and I lived in a ranch style rambler house for most of the time I was in high school. It's pretty great being downstairs in my own space. and oh yeah, I loved it. And that's how it is for Daniel from tonight's letter until it wasn't. So Fororest, this one's yours to read tonight. I actually enjoy how Daniel lays the story out and there's some eloquence to some of the passages, which I thought was It really brought me into the story moreore, so I enjoyed that. So anyway, whenever you're ready, sir In twenty eleven, I was a junior in high school and my parents purchased a house in the Salt Lake City, Utah area It was built in two thousand six and a Rambler style home with a basement The basement itself was around fourteen hundred square feet partially finished unprofessionally with drywall up, but no carpet When we moved there, I noticed every doorknob in the basement locked and was backwards. So you could lock someone or something in from the outside I changed that when we moved in, but thought it was really odd Since I was a teenager and wanted to be as far away from my parents as possible, my mom gave me the entire basement to myself Which I loved, but immediately when moving in felt watched anytime I was down there alone I have always been a skeptic of sorts, but after living at this house, I fully believe anything is possible One night, I was up drawing around eleven PM in my room with my back resting on my headboard that was against a wall that booreed the foundation. Next to that room was an unfinished bathroom that had no drywall and had a gap that you could look down the length of that bedroom wall my headboard bordered roughly twenty feet in depth with the bedroom wall set a foot out from the foundation Anyhow, I heard a rapid three knocks behind my head directly on the wall behind me as if someone was knocking on a door It made me jump, and I immediately thought my brother was trying to scare me and had shimmied behind the wall to do so I jumped up and ran out to the bathroom with all the lights off and no light sourced in the bathroom and said aloud. Very funny stuff. You got me. When I heard nothing I turned on the light on my phone and looked between the walls There was nothing, and immediately every hair in my body stood on end As I type this or anyime I tell this story, I get goosebumps There was no way a person could have shimmied fifteen feet or so between walls and ran out of the basement in pitch black as quick as I hopped out of my bed and ran to where I did No one was there just me Realizing this, I went back in my room and locked my door pulled my covers over my head and fell asleep with a TV on. I woke up around four AM or so to my direct TV off and just a blue screen on my TV. The room. pitched in blue. I couldn't move anything but my eyes. and as I lay there, an old woman crawled up from the bottom of my bed, arms first and climb my body until she was on my chest, and I couldn't breathe or make a noise She was somewhat translucent and not very detailed there I was so scared that I was going to suffocate after twenty or so seconds which felt like five minutes Before I closeed my eyes and started to pray the Lord's prayer I was raised Catholic loosely But at the time, my family didn't really practice Anyways, the weight lifted and I jumped out of my bed and as a sixteen year old ran upstairs crying and jumped into bed between my parents like a three year old who saw the boogeyman I didn't sleep down there for three weeks after this Eventually I did though, and lived there for a long time with Strange noises always happening throughout the night. I would hear rummaging through the storage room so bad, I'd sometimes think there was an intruder Eventually, my now wife and her two kids moved in with me in that basement while we saay for a place of our own. My wife would wake me up to noises and tell me to check it, which I did to comfort her a few times. but after a while, I told her If you ignore it, It ignores you whichich was the resolve I found best for strange instances there Needless to say, this house convinced me solidly Hauntings are real And no one can tell me otherwise Sorry for the long one, but I've wanted to share this story with you for a long time. And once he started doing dead letters, figured it was time Thanks for everything you do After these messages, we'll be right back Astonishing Legends is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy. Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save money when you bundle your home and auto policies. The process only takes minutes, and it could mean hundreds more in your pocket. Visit progressive dot com after this episode to see if you could save Progressive casualty insurance compompany and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. This is Lilip Pondons from Sweiteet three hundred five with Lip Pons. Sweite three hundred five with Leter Pwns is brought to you by Durasel Game day at my house, it's chaos, but the fun kind. The TV's ready, the remotes are ready, the kids' toys are going off, somebody's blasting music in the kitchen, and suddenly everybody needs batteries at the exact same time. 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And now back to the show All right, the first thing that jumped out at me, about this story, it's a pretty mundane detail, but maybe there's a lot more to it than it seems is all the doorknobs, everything being lockable from the outside. Like I thought that was a little strange.. I have certainly encountered plenty of incompetent contractors over the years and there's no question that I've known a few that would have done this thinking they were doing it right and doing it completely backwards or people that worked with them. So The other thing I run into, I think they do it on purpose is that they'll do most of the construction on a place But they will not yet have put in doorknobs or face plates on electrical outlets, things like that. Yes. And this actually happened at a place I worked, which is a brand new building, spepeaking of this kind of scenario here where They didn't put door handles in. It's like, Yeahah, you to come back and do that? Like, yeah, we got five other jobs. likeike, yeah, well we're We're paying you for this one And then they had the goal to demand the whole payment And so our office manager said, yeah, we'll pay you everything when you finish everything Right. And R. So anyway, but the question I have for you, if you remember from the story Did any other family or people live in the house before them Who put the doorknobs in on the other side where they were lockable from the outside Yeah, that's a good question because he Daniel doesn't really talk about that. Yeah That's what it My parents purchased the house in Salt Lake. So I don't think it was family necessarily. I mean, they could have been bought from family, but I feel like he would have pointed that out. So. Yeah, no, somebody did that purpose I think in this story. I mean, we're kind of m make right of contractors and and sometimes they deserve it. But the idea is that this was kind of done on purpose. It reminds me of skinwire ranch. Remember when there was locks on every cabinet That's right When the Shermans moved in. So that was somebody else before them doing that. It's like, no, no, you're going to want this. trust me. I know it seems weird, but you're going to want these locks So he changes that and again, it doesn't stop anything, but mayaybe there's something symbolic about That's an issue. I think, and I think like the idea of locking something in is pretty freaky. and yeah. so could it have been a mistake by, you know, somebody who worked on the house or, you know, you could have also had a nefarious character in the home who was locking someone up for some reason that wasn't necessarily paranormal, just, you know, punishment weird, deviant, whatever. could be anything like I hope not. That's worse. I mean, we have to address that. someone is going to say, well,, you know, maybe that was just a perve and yeah, maybe it was just a perve. It's not necessarily a ghost in that scenario. However, Whatever was happening, the next thing is this knocking sound and it took Forrest and I had to spend a little time before we went on the air understanding the geometry Yeah of the basement in the room here. But this is the impression that you and I are getting, right, Forrest is that the bedroom where Daniel was drawing and sitting with against a headboard That wall as he said, borders the foundation. But it's not literally physically touching the foundation. It sounds like there is a chase in there between that what you call that? Yeah. there's a sp Yeah thats you call a little space that's not meant to be lived in or necessarily used, but it does give you access or you can put equipment in there or maybe it makes it easier to work on it if you have a problem or something becausecause if the foundation is under ground and you have enough room in the basement without building the wall right up to the foundation wall, why wouldn't you leave a little space? Plus it helps you fight moisture or some other issues like that. So ye, that's my guess. So what's happening here is that you can get into that chase, which is essentially like a hidden passage, but a very thin one And you can get in there from the bathroom next to the bedroom because of something that's not finished or whatever. So what he was saying was that his brother, Steph, couldn't have possibly gone in there and would have had to get to knock right on the headboard, right behind Daniel's head would have had to travel shhimmy, as he said, down this fifteen feet, down this narrow gap dark wall in the foundation. And then talk cobwbs and spider webs and exactly and spiders and then escape and get away without making any noise or being caught as well because he was talking about running away out of the basement And I love the whole the very funny stuff, like the fact that that was the first thing you said. It's like straight out of a, you know, a Spielberg movie. It's It's always like nope it's not your sibling. It's not your loved one that did that. And when you figure it out, you're going to be pretty freaked out. So I I just thought that that part was interesting. But then you mentioned just last week on a dead letter that we did. you were talking about the physicality of knocking sounds and wondering whether or not those were something that you would hear in the real world or if it's something that is making an impression on your senses, but it's ultimately internal to you. You know? Yeah how does that work? I mean, the best guess I can hazard was would be that something is causing that energy in a burst against something solid and real, at least to our world. make that noise. R. And like I said, or is that happening in the head of Whever's around in that locality And so is it localized or is it really just like a force of energy? Be I wonder about footsteps when people hear footsteps Yeah because that's a little different. you know what I'm saying? there's theres rapping, there's knocking, there's scratching. We've heard so much of that through all the stories we've covered and that there's that kind of variety of low level stuff, which usually is the precursor to a for involved and dramatic haunting. It's like the Bell Witch starts off with scratches and knocks and rarapping and this and that And it's not always the Fox sisters faking something And it leads to usually something else later where that's the first part of the gathering of energy to do this to be able to do this Yeah But the footsteps, you wonder is someone walking around or if there is a ghost And it is walking on something like is it the weight of their being? Like what's causing We iteration of footstep sounds One of the best ones that we've heard of is the u Remember we heard the audio actually of this. The guy is under speaking of crawl spaces and tight spaces, he's under the house. I believe this is in Southern California where there generally are no basements But he's in the the crawl space with the gas guy from the gas company because they're looking at pipes right. And no one is in the house. above them, but they can hear somebody walking around and it freaks both of them out. and the guy actually had his phone with them and recorded the noises. Yeah. Now it doesn't mean anything to anybody else because you weren't there. It's like, well, that could be easily be faked and sure it can be unless you're that person and the gas guy right. The gas guy also knows there's nobody in the house So that's the first part of our story here is like I said, it starts off with a little introductory knocking And also the whistling past the graveyard kind of response. It's like, I don't know what that is. I think it's gott to be my brother. That's the only thing I can think of. Also' three knocks Trinity You know Yeah the time of night, it's eleven PM. you know, we're not talking about the fourth watch hour of the of three AM to three hundred thirty or whatever, but it's at night. Yeah. as Peter, the the psychic on TV used to say Our nighttime is their daytime. so they're just much more active for some reason And that's when he hears it And I think the other thing that he explains with that is that there might be a space behind it, but further out is the foundation wall, which means on the other side of that concrete is just dirt So it's solid Earth Yeah And what's coming through there? Well, it's not something from the outside of the street So that's what you have to contend with and then waking up at four AM Again, you're pass just past the fourth watch here. I'm not sure when that ends And that's the biblical term for the watch segments of the night for the shepherds And that that so the fourth watch would, I think beginner and around three AM And so of course you have to somebody has to be up all night and taking turns and shifts to watch the flock. And that's when stuff happens when people are probably most vulnerable and it's the dark of night And so you wake up and this is part of the story where you were talking about in our introduction where I like the writing because it's very vivid. I can picture this perfectly This blue light from the TV just kind of bated in the room. pitched and bl and then T I've never had a Tivo. Do you remember that though? It probably had a. Oh, yeah, yeah. my dad had one Did he o. So I got to mess with that sometimes. Yeah, It's a very vivid blue, if I recall from friends houses Just giving an ethereal feeling in the bed. And then the next thing here and I think we should do an episode one day, maybe just a collection of the best stories we can find is The old hag or the old woman because it's the same darn thing pretty much every time. Yeah. and so there's there's a lot about that that's really fascinating. and we have talked about it over the years on the main show and everything else. It's cross cultural. There's a lot of people that try to get into what exactly its origins are and does it exist or is it just in your head But the bottom line is lots and lots of cultures have been reporting these for as long as we've been able to find recorded history. And the Japanese actually have a great name for it too. and I can't remember if we've talked about this before, but they call it the Kanashibari or Kanosibari. I'm not sure how to say KA N A S H I B A R I Yes and that loosely translates to something like bound by metals Mal bound heavy metal Pictures invisible iron chains laid over you while you sleep So think about that, weighing you down perfectly describes the feeling you get if this happens to you without the looseness of the change, but just something Heavy and encapsulating an unabbreakable And the root of the word in Japanese is the interesting part here And that comes out of Shugendo, this old tradition of mountain ascetics in Japan. We're talking about Buddhist monks. because originally Keneshibai was a spell that the monk would cast and he was the one doing the binding pinning down of an evil spirit or some form of enemy This happens here a lot A monk that it sounds a little like voodoo almost. like controlling Well No,' every every u I mean, Scott, I mean we know people that have done some practices to dispel you know, a spirit or at least limit their movement and activity. Yes.. And they said, Well, you can't get rid of it completely. You don't have that kind of power. You're not Jesus or a priest, but you can have some power in controlling or limiting their influence. and so that's what can be done. Remember, I think it was a paranormal witness where Again, I think was a I think it was a Ouija board. gone awry and they turned to a Native American Chamman where man that knew that and he did a ceremony and put the board in like a kiddy pool. under the water Right That bal right. the spirit. Now you couldn't get rid of it completely but he was able to control it and that I think somebody foolishly took the board out of the water. Mayhem ensued once again But that's a fascinating concept that you can bind that up or something that cannot be bound. It's like our name is Lgion for we are many And spat of Jesus and having the man who is possessed and no chain could bind him No hold control him And it was completely wild and seemingly insane. and then Jesus casts the spirit out of him or the spirit of many into a flog of pigs which then ran off the cliff, and that's how he dispelled them. But I make that point here because there is a reference to saying the Lord's prayer and for some reason That works And you can believe what you want, but I would be willing to bet It's like there are no atheists and foxholes as the old sayings. And if you're experiencing that and you feel like you're being suffocated, And you have the choice of like, well, I don't believe any of this. This is ridiculous. I'm not saying that. It's like, okay, we'll continue experiencing the asphyxiation. orr maybe try the Lord's prayer And see how that goes. And if that works, it's like, well, I don't know what the mechanism is for that, but it seemed to work and I'm going with that. Well there is there is some idea, you know, folks talk about this and so I'll counterpoint that. and I see both sides of it, frankly, but there is this idea that you know, it's a safety mechanism. You're waking up,re this is what prevents your body from flailing about when you're dreaming. It gets disconnected physically. And so what happens is every now and then on rare occasions, you come back from your RIM state. And in theory, your body's like, oh, we got toa be careful. He's handang gliding in his dream or jogging in a marathon or whatever And it prevents that from being reconnected. And then that is what people are experiencing. and that's why it's cross cultural and all this because it's just a function of being a human being On the other hand Why are you seeing icular thing the old haag or somebody else, and that again comes down to what are you most afraid of? Because you're in this vulnerable state. You're already in that state. Yeah, but my question to that is like, okay, you could say that, well, that's just a function of the human brain in this condition. It's like, okay, so is that a file we all have regardless of culture and background and race and ethnicity Well preservation file, maybe. But why is it always the old lady? You know what I'm saying? It's like But it's not in other culture. Well, my point is we just read this. Yeah, it could be other things. I mean, we've had listeners tell us a story about a demon Yeah this woman Beth. I always remember Beth. It was one of the first u people I conversed with like over the phone in depth about her condition and that's this is from a long time ago. I think we'd been just broadcasting for maybe a year or two and she told me about her mother's experience and I always remember this because how she dealt with it. She had this recurring hypnopopic. experience she'd wake up or would see this demon come to the foot of her bed as sit on her chest and She couldn't breathe and it was not the old hag. It was it was like some kind of demon thing and It was almost every night and she was exhausted and terrified And was, you know, losing her mind because it's like, this is happening way too much to be something. And of course, you go to the dog. it's like, we just go to the doctor and they tell the doctor that and they give you a medication which doesn't rank. until finally she was so fed up with it. It happened again. this thing was like grinning and enjoying its control over her and sucking the fear, you know, feeding off the fear that she was so exhausted, she just started laughing at it And I always remember this what Beth told me. She said the way her mother described it was This thing looks so puzzled and quizzical, like you're supposed to be scared. You're not supposed to laugh at me This isn't funny How dare you And she said as soon as she burst out laughing, it's like, o, I've had enough of you. Just get out of here. ight It left and it never came back And that's the point here is that it could be, yeah, you could say, well, it's the Lord's prayer. Well, that's why does that work? Well, that's just your brain comforting yourself and well, but also that is to be counterpoint on that. And by the way, I frequently call on the Lord's prayer and have with great fervor ever since we went to Kansas. Yeah there Well there you go. That' the foxhole. You you were in your fox. I was in the foxhole. I was and I'm still in it But what I will say is I also know because another thing that you and I both practice and we talk about it off the air is meditation and mindfulness and that sort of thing. That's also a meditative thing. So let's say you are having a physical reaction, you wake up, you're paralyzed And what's happening is is rather than panicking and taking your body into a panic in reciting the Lord's prayer in a way, you are kind of meditating. It's like chanting or whatever else. And that may be all it takes to reconnect the faulty wiring in that instant. if're if you're going down the mundane path. It still means Lord's prayer works. I'm just saying, what if it's something different Or again, Well, what you're saying is that You're laughing at the fear you're controlling the anxiety, which this all goes back to monsters Inc, frankly. There's a lot more power in the laughing than the fear Yeah.. Well, yeah. now here's what I would say about that. again, not to keep counter point counter pointoint Jane, but the idea is that yeah, you could say, all right, well, it's your body waking up, you can't breathe because your functions, your autonomic functions aren't online. W to tell you before, I've heard this before tootal secular way, which I believe and I think it works. If you find yourself frozen, but you're you're waking up and this has happened to me before you get reaked and you start to panic So what you do is you try to concentrate on just moving your pinky And if you can move your pinky and that starts to move and then you can move other fingers and then move your hand and your arm and that will wake you up. Now, what I would say to what you're saying is that you're trying to Just be calm, relaxed If it's the Lord's prayer or just meditation. or're just using visualization techniques of you and a hammock. drinking a daakquiri on the beach and that right calms you and you wake up. That's fine But I don't think I've ever heard, nor have I experienced because I've had a fair number amount of hypnopomic experiences I've never woken up and can't breathe becausecause you still have the autonomic function of like your body like Okay, well, you can't move, but that doesn't mean we're going to shut off your air. you know, like until you die or pass out or asphyxiate. All the stories that I've read of this happening is that you feel this weight on your chest, alsoso the weight The physical weight that as something is actually on your chest And then you are awake and maybe you can't move. But it's not like it's choking you The second thing I would say is that the instance of the Lord's prayer or some kind of spiritual practice or Calisman your sage spray, whatever it is. works when people are fully awake and experiencing some kind of spirit oppression someomewhere else, not in bed, right fully awake h in house, wherever, you know, you might be. And that seems to work as well if you really wanted to and you believe in it a bit. So I would say it's not always just waking up where that's been the case And also you have this condition where you see different things But in a lot of cultures, like I said, well thing you're most afraid of what an old woman, you know, not generally, it's not a fang demon. It's just like It's some disheveled older lady with a long white hair or whatever It's like yeah, it's a little weird. She shouldn't be in my bedroom, but I'm not exactly scared of her. It's like, what is she? seventy pounds soaking wet. I can hand. You know So like I said, it's be very weird and disturbing and shocking, but like not something I couldn't with a swift kick get off my bed The fact that you can't move, it's often an old lady. It's like something, I get it. the idea is like, oh, it's kind of weird. I don't know what this is, but like what's the Baba Yaga doing on my chest? Okay? Why is that image And that's my point earlier. It's like, well, that's just your brain going through that. And people say that about the near death experience. L like, well, that's just a memory tape your brain plays when you're deprived of oxygen and you're going to die. It's like So okay, let's take that as fact Why is that pervasive through all of humanity for all eternity? Why is that why is we go to that one thing And why does the brain have that file in it that just playsight And? Because that's the thing. it's not the same for everyone. You're right. It's not always the same old woman. It's different things that immobilize you. We've heard stories from David Weathery guy seeing his something coming through the window And being a long snake, but like a feminine Pence half woman, half snake that was something like a succumus Rat was smothering his brother. And he would have these experiences And I also wonder in connection to this What about people that die in their sleep? Now there I was gonna to pitch to you actually have a bunch of tabs open that I should close. Don't you open? I always do, but this is one subject is Sudden death syndrome with adults And there's a lot of it in Southeast Asia. about shadow people and coming and actually killing people in their sleep Very sadly and tragically, I do have a good friend who's a relative of theirs Perfectly healthy, young, thirty. Yes, you told me about this. I just died in their sleep. No explanation at all autopsy, the whole thing It just happens sometimes Not saying that anything's spiritual, like the body can do that, right? For whatever reason it just Heart just stopped. That's the only explanation they got But you do wonder about people that have these experiences and does it go that far if you believe this or whether you don't believe this Does it go that far where these things can actually be fatal where R. Your heart was disturbed enough, you've got arrhythmia And you're deprived of oxygen enough that it actually has a very negative effect up until actually killing you Yeah. I don't know, but like a lot of people believe that And that's what I'm saying about some of these cultures, especially in Southeast Asia, where they do believe there's a form of shadow person that can kill you in your sleep And they do what they can to protect against it. But Getting to your point here because I do believe that there is something to this. I don't know why Daniels was experiencing this. It may be the house sounds like he's just a regular average guy that He's not playing with Ouija boards or opening portals. This thing is kind of there. And so I think there's different reasons for people experiencing these things. I think people can unwittingly invite these things when they dabble and and actually invite the stuff in. It's like it can be as simple as I've had friends that like, oh, I got this set of candles and I had this little Magical instruction and it's all very new agey and earth friendly and this and that, but something weird happened to them where they lit these candles said this a little prayer Blew the candles out Fully, went to bed, woke up in the morning, and the candles had all burned down puddles of wax. It's like, okay, what did that? Did you wake up and light those candles again? Maybe. in a sleepwalking semnomialistic kind of state, but They were freaked out and said, I wouldn't be saying just random kind of prayers out loud. you don't know. Yeah yeah. This is a point to our last thing It's like what we're talking about Billy in the Wellington. letter Yes. Wondering, well where are these messages coming from? What are you communicating with? Well you don't really know. And so here we don't know what this what this old hag is, what this being is I believe that this can happen Once again, we have somebody who's like, I don't believe in any of this at all and I didn't. But now I wonder and definitely keep open the possibility that these things kind of can happen because they experienced it themselves and that's the real proof of the pudding One thing I did want to touch on again in the mundane category in the basement could be pipes. could be pipes knocking. waterater haammer effect inside of pipes that you know when you turn Yeah. Okay, well, thank you, Brian Dunning. This is the Well no, I'm just say But again is it also causing the old ha a few extra emails from the inbox. I see. You've got pipes, plus you've got Radon Plus you've got natural gas, plus you've got black mold making you hallucinate. It's like, ye it's a lot to cover all the bases.. And that's usually what I say is that when you have a mundane thing, it covers one base out of five or six. Yeah, that's true. Towards the end here, of course, when he gets married and the kids moved in And they're sleeping in that basement while they look for a house of their own These things are happening and the wife is like, Hey, somebody's in the house. G check on it. And like He will do that like, okay, yeah, because I don't want to tell you that there's a spirit down here So let me just do that the part that I love is that yeah, he did that. lived there for a long time And the noises would happen throughout the night So he's still hearing rummaging through rooms, which is creepy. So the haag didn't Yeah That's my earlier point is that you can buind something or limit its activity, but it's still kind of there You may not have enough power to banish it completely. U, but the new the now new wife there is waking up no noises and asking him to check on it. And then he says after a while, it's like, Well, if you ignore it, it ignores you which was the resolve I found best for strange instances there. What does a wife think about that? It's like wouldn' eat it. Like what are you talking about? If you ignore it, it ignores like what is down here? And so what is that conversation like? Yeah Is that thation. I found that kind of fun and amusing. It's just that the fact that now you're introducing somebody new who has to live there Yeah Like what's going on here? because you definitely have an intruder problem or something else is happening that you're not quite telling me about. And so to kind of leave with that like, yeah, if you just ignore it, It's like, okay, so I wish they would have gone on to explain how that was taken Yeah. I doubt you told the kids. Also it's not totally benign. L there's something there that is causing you discomfort and worry and fear. When I guess he w up being in the house for a while. I mean, he did leave. He said he didn't go back in there for three weeks. He first of all, paranormal apathy went back to bed or basically fell asleep, woke up at four AM. thenen the next day decided I'm not going to sleep down there for three weeks You know, and that's a real kind of fear. I do think it's to the point of me talking about pipes banging or whatever else. I feel like his parents would have said to him Oh, that's just the pipes Or whatever, as opposed to we're gonna to let you stay upstairs for three weeks. They obviously couldn't talk him out of it with some kind of mundane explanation. Yeah, I also wondered what what the parents thought as well, did they experience anything Right whereere you just kind of like like, okay, yeah, you can do that because most parents, I know with mine, it's just like, okay, that's enough. G back to bed. you know, get back to your bed And because part of it is is fine. I think you need to experience, you need to face it although not being armed with any kind of information about what you're dealing with or how to deal with it is terrifying, especially for a young person, you know, But yeah I do wonder what other folks thought and it would be a great place to ghost hunt because it sounds like there's somethingomething residual there always. Yeah. And then what did Steph think? the brother did Yeah, that's a good question. Yeah. A lot of times if Daniel, if you have talked to Steph about this You should listen to our series the Kakowski Intruder on Astonishing Legends. You find out sometimes siblings both experience something and have strangely never shared it with each other. So maybe you should reach out to Steph if that's possible I do wonder, I would say, Scott, I don't I think I show this to you a very long time ago, but Greg and Dana Newkirk had a really fun and we still reference it. I think it's on the wayay backack machine now because it's defunct, but they're weak and weird website series and they posted a picture that someone got when they were taking a picture. I think the background is that it was a photo taken at one of those mock convenience stores or grocery stores that are meant for kids. that it's part of another installation or something you know, like a museum or fun, you know, science fair kind of thing. Yeah. And so it's miniature kind of stuff that kids can roam around and pretend to buy stuff at a store And I think the guy was just taking a picture of it and in the picture is something that looks like the old hag It's very Wraithi, very W R A I T H