Final Thoughts on the Paranormal Flap

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Saying slowly back and forth likeike a pendulum A physical trait we've heard of UAP exhibiting before at Astonishing Legends Pauleen Coombs, whatever this was, looked like it was watching her That was the start Over the next year, the Combbs family farm, Ripperston Alone on the cliffs above St. Brid's Bay became the center of one of the longest running UFO cases in British history and the location mattered Within twenty miles, there was an RAF base, a missile range. Army tank ranges and Though nobody knew it at the time a secret U.S. Navy station built attrack Soviet submarinine. What the Combs went through wasn't one sighting. It was months of the Their TV's and cars burned out their wiring again and again Everything but the copper An electrician found power still draining from the house with a main shut offff One night, an orange light followed their car down a lane until the engine quit, and they ran the last half mile home Then the figure started Tall, Silver face standing at the window with a hand on the glass and gone before the police arrived The family dog never recovered from it He became so unhinged they eventually had to put him down They weren't the only ones A few miles up the coast on the fourth of February Fteen children at Broad Haven Primary School saw a silver domed craft in the field behind the playground The headadmaster separated them and had each one draw it on their own and the drawings lined up We had an eyewitness to that, David Davis On episode one hundred and fifteen of Astonishing Legends back in twenty eighteen After that, sightings were everywhere The press showed up and started calling the area the Welsh Triangle The hotel owner, Rosa Granville, reported a saucer and two silver figures near her place Neighbors saw things in their gardens. The sightings ran into the dozens The strangest part wasn't in the sky. Twice, two identical men in dark suits showed up in a big silver car that made no sound on the graveled driveways as they drove up. Their skin look like wax They knew the family members by name They'd appear and disappear and then get in the car to drive away without passing others who are traveling on the same roads And the farm itself seemed to be under some kind of test A hundred cattle locked in chain in their panics Vanished and turned up at a neighbor's farm miles away at only minutes more than once in the same afternoon with no tracks in the wet mine One night in November Polleen Coomb said she found herself not in bed but sitting in a bright domed room with two identical women in front of her Th thenen she was home again Oly call but with a small puncture mark. When the family went to the authorities, the Ministry of Defense wrote back that there was no record of anything unusual in the area That wasn't the whole story The declassified file definitively shows the MOD had quietly had the REF police investigate Brouadhaven while telling Parliament and the public there was nothing to it Were there hoaxers? Yes At least one local later admitted to walking around in a homemade silver suit But by his own account That was after the sightings had already made the papers The pranks came later, and they don't explain what people saw in the beginning of this chain of events The Combs never took it back They offered to take lie detector tests Their account, all dramatized, was written up in Clive Herold's nineteen seventy nine book The Uninvited, the true story of Riverston Far And the crux of their story has outlasted just about every attempt to explain it away they came to believe was simple This was real and ignoring it, which they did attempt to do a few times mistake It's been almost fifty years since these events, and there's still no reasonable explanation as to what happened over Stt Bride's Bay in Southwest Wales Welcome back to Astonishing Lends. I'm Scott Filbrook and this is Forest Burgess You will find no explanations for the events reconstructed here, for there are none Clive Harold, author of the Uninvited Join us tonight for a deep dive with our friend Richard Haddam as we take a look at the extremely strange events at Riperston Farm in nineteen seventy seven And we're all back That we are folks, and it's good to be back with our good friend Richard Haddam. Yes, It's been far too long and we're way overdue for this type of communion. And so I'm glad we're gonna to have him back because I don't get to talk to him enough just on a personal fun level, you know, just as a phone g. We're actually having to schedule shows and topics to catch up with Rich at this point. It's not the way it used to be. No, we're so glad we're gonna to have him back because we owe it to Rich for introducing us to this far out story. and then having now read the book finally, 's just so mind blowing. everything that's going on and as I say, I think in our discussion One of the things I love about it is that there's so many different types of phenomenon. Yes. It's a juicy one and it's one that came to us through the grace of Rich's attention to it. One quick thing before we shift gears. I do't want to say we're into our summer schedule. so our main shows are a little lighter for June, July and August, but the deead Letter offffice will continue weekly. Just pay attention to our feed. and you'll be getting new content just a tiny bit less often in the summer, but we still do seventy eight new shows a year. so I don't see angry emails. but anyway, so Rich, are you there? Wlcome back. I am so glad to be back with you guys. The gangs always is like the old days, back when I was just a guest Before I had my own podcast. That's right. Back in those virginal days when I could just I could just drop in on you guys and ruin your show. Now I've got my own show to ruin. withith no guests. Well actually you've been having more guests on. You start off it was solo rich and then you've been bringing more guest stars on Well, what I've discovered is that by bringing people on and simply talking to them and recording it, it's a billion times easier Yeah than writ already pid you know story of my life and a book report. Anyway. no, but I love doing those. We still obviously that, you know, you get ten every season only and especially right now. while Susan and I were moving, it was like, you know what? let's do the bonus episodes and have a few of those and we'll have more during the breaks. though I love doing those too. and I'm lucky because of you guys, I know a lot of people I can I can reach out to him and say, Hey. Yeah, just you just had Lyo Blackburn on, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that a perfect example. Actually, people started talking about his book on the Facebook group, RHPB Richard Hdam's paranormal bookshelf Facebook group they were talking about the cover of the book, and then I took a look at it and they were talking about the artist and I'm like What is this? And it's like, Oh, it's Lyle this is his new book series. And anyway, that kind of got it started. And then I'm like Well he's selling a book. Let me give him a call. I could probably get him. It's a book and terrific hot sauce, by the way. and a lot of other.es. he does really cool S that goes with it. He's got a lot of style, but it's great having somebody who knows what they're talking about because they've been studying it for years. That's why Scott and I love to have authors on because you know, unlike us who've been immersed in something for, you know, two or three weeks You have somebody who spent two or three years or more on a single subject And as you know, with authors and reporters, like they're living it for a while and Lys no different. Well they also have a different perspective on things having been so immersed in it. By the way, for folks who missed it, Rich's show is called Richard Adams Paranormal bookshelf. Look for it wherever you get your podcast. He's got a lot of shows out there now. It's a great time to go out and find it, subscribe it, like it, tell your friends about it And you can catch up on pretty much everything there is to know about Rich, even what he's got hidden in his sockdor because he talks about it all. But And I wanted to say this one other thing about Lyles. is what I remember last time he was on our show was that he is so cool and his pictures are so cool that Instagram is routinely flagging his photos. hisis real photos is AI And they're saying you have to say this is AI because he's like on a horse in the woods. It's like, nope, that's me. I'm on a horse in the woods, you know So Well, my favorite thing that I found out about him in this interview is that He's like when I was a little kid I saw the leegend of Boggy Creek had no interest in this stuff until that day And after that I was obsessed. My life changed. He was a little kid. Yeah. And he's like, it's all I thought about. Like there is a monster out there that not only could I see one day, but I could be murdered by because it kills people And now he's like looking back at that little kid And now I'm the guy who basically wrote the book And the movie and the Falc mononster and is routinely turned to by people who want to hear the story of Boggy Creek and want someone who's got an encyclopedic knowledge of it. and he's that guy. And he's like for me to think back to that day And to imagine I ever would have been that guy is totally crazy. but it's so I love that story. Well the question I have in relation to that and connection too, tonight's topic is after having now done a couple of years of your own show which is putting a different lens on everything When you first gifted this book to us and Scott and I were all commenting that I think I probably mentioned it in the cold open. This is part of a gift basket of just tremendous books that would launch any you know, adolescent kid into a lifelong obsession with learning about all this stuff. This is just one of the books that was in it. And I think Scott and I would vow to eventually before we retire one day We will have liked to have gotten through all the books and discussed them with you because it was just a treasure trove different generations of flaps and happenings And when you first read the book, the uninvited and now having years past and a different perspective and doing your own show Has your perspective changed on the content of things that appear in this book and in general And having talked to so many more people, has that changed at all Well I remember when I first read the book being super impressed by it and really absorbed, especially in the way that it's written, which is very Doc you drama. Yes, heavy on the drama. And then reading it again now, I wasn't as engaged by that. In fact, I was sort of like, I'm kind of rubbing the wrong way against this sort of, you know, pull up a chair and let me tell you about the Combs family. and I But I liked it. and the stuff that happens in the book is so strange and yet in certain ways, so in line with other UFO paranormal stories like R that I remember thinking, yeah, that's a pretty good one The other books, of course, Siren Call of Hungry Ghost. Yep. Yes. Verttical plane. Yes, both life changers for me. love. Yeah But it was within a year of me meeting you guys. I think it was like Christmas of twenty eighteen. and it's that thing that I always get where it's like Scott Frest are my new paranormal friends I wish we were on the playground and we trading books back and forth. and I'm just like, I got so excited and between being. E both at school and at home. Y. Well, that's the idea, I think, is that what you learned from the book. It comes across in every story where there's an event And I feel really bad for folks that endure this as an individual or just a family or just a couple of friends. You share something so out there and unrelatable to most people and so intimate and so private and terrifying that no one else is really going to get it unless they're part of it too. And that's one of the things that you learn in the book is that Everybody that that the book talks about it's like they all thought this UO ph nonsense was all rubbish And then they come on more because they seen something or experienced it and then you're part of this club that you didn't intend to. It's a little like the scene And I love how Spielberg does this without any words really Remember when Richard Dreif is, he makes his way up to Devil's Twer and then they're going shoe everybody away who were mysteriously and individually called to this. And he gets on the on the Huy helicopter And he looks around and he sees people who were total strangers of all walks of life and ages. But there's that knowing look of like, you know too now, don't you you're part of this. like we can't explain it either, but We're all connected And so that's what came across in the book. And the other thing I was going to ask you now having spent decades as a world renowned screenwriter When you read the book, that's the thing that comes across is that it's very narrative. It's got that blend of fiction and nonfiction. and I mean the fiction part of just Illustrative storytelling and to get you in the mood because you like what people were thinking in bed at three in the morning, that kind of thing. Yeah, right. and that still happens. Look, I have a friend whos who writes for a podcast about Hollywood T true Crime stories and she said Well, you have to write a scene between so and so and La Turners because I don't know what they were talking about. It's like you have to get the feeling across In between the points of the true crime story that actually happened, the facts becausecause people want more than just the laid out bullet points of like the crime blotter So that's what you get with his book. And when you write a movie, I'm sure you got this with the Moth Band prophecies. it's like Well, I'm also trying to tell a story that is definitely tells a story is the feeling of it keepeeping faith to it. But it's its own story as well So did you feel a little bit about that with this story about Ripperton Farm and that Yeah, these are the facts as they were relayed to him as a journalist. But his job also was to infuse it with some real feeling and a bit of insight into the emotions of the people which he may not have known. Here's the tricky part. In the epilogue, he explains how he did the book. came across the story that he found the family and then interviewed them separately and together you know, for days and days. I mean, tons of interviews where I'm sure the emotion came through and he was bringing whatever journalistic ability to discern truth from a lie. And then so based on that, if someone is telling you, oh, I didn't sleep for weeks. I would lie in bed and all I could think about was what's happening to my kid, what's happening to my husband. Now then if you go ahead and write that in a chapter, you know, Pauline, you know was lying awake in bed all night, all she could think about, that's totally legit. You just have to know when you're beginning the book that that's the story you're getting into because Many books aren't written like that, especially about this topic. They are written from a step back a more journalistic almost, you know, here's what happened to the Coombs family on Ripperston Farm And you get a little bit of framing in a short prologue, but it's mostly retroactive afterwards. frankly I don't think most people care. That's what I'm coming to realize as an almost sixty year old person When it comes to people consuming entertainment, most people not only don't care, they don't know. Some people do. like there's a sliver of people who are like, wait is this based on a true story? Wait a second. Is this following the facts And the vast majority of people don't care. They're like I never even knew there was a guy named Freddy Mercury. I just reard there was a movie called Bohemian Rhapsody and I liked it. It's good enough for them. And so You know, we're reading things and we approach things in a way that a lot of people don't, but you know, hey, that's why we're here, doing the work, so you don't have to. So for a very long time, the people around St. Brid's Bay and Wales kept asking one question Is all of this real or is somebody pulling a trick on us? You know, what's the catch? becausecause there's always a catch, isn't there? There is always a catch, which is honestly what we thought too way back when MintMobile first sponsored us in twenty sixteen. What's the catch? This is too good to be. It was too good for everybody. but yeah, we were incredulous You know, back in twenty sixteen, a little bit more than we are now. comeome on, preremium wireless for just fifteen bucks a month. I kept waiting for the fine print to bite. No gimmicks, no gotchas. It just didn't. Well, you know, here's what's true though. Mint took what's wrong with wireless and made it right. And they're still doing it today Unlimited talk, text and data, fast, reliable coverage on the nation's largest five G network, and an award winning care team if you ever need to talk to a real person. You bring your current phone and your number, you choose a three, six or twelve month plan, and you say goodbye to a monthly bill. Yeah, and the savings very real. I've been on Mint the whole time. Yeah, me too. 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I'm not practicing the pronunciation of my last name and the name of the city I live in. I'm listening to astonishing Lgends. Now let's get back to the show Well, that's a great explanation, Rich. I loved how we get a writer's and especially a screen writer's perspective on it because something that having as you know, having gone to film school and you talk to civilians, quote unquote, They still understand that Every medium is a different type of writing If you're a good poet, you write poetry, that doesn't mean you can write a song That doesn't mean you can write a movie. That doesn't mean you know, and make it good. So fromrom that perspective of trying to adapt a series of happenings into a book or a movie or some other medium You have to format it. So people are going to want to listen to it or watch it or read it. And then after you get that hurdle crossed They have to enjoy it. So I understand that there is some license, but you want to remain true to the spirit of it, which is, I think what the point is Well, and I think he was obviously compelled by talking to the family Yeah. by not only their sort of, you know, natural aspect as You know, normal people living a rural life on a farm but also the emotion that he witnessed as they were telling these stories, which Literally this was a horribly upsetting time. Yeah. all of ye And when you hear the stories in the book, you understand why. So I think he was struck by that and was like, well, this is the most compelling ing So I can't just relate this stuff as dry fat. I have to sort of let you know what they were thinking as things were happening and how horribly stressful it was for these people who were just trying to get by on whatever living a farmer is making in Wales in nineteen seventy seven. You know, These are no nonsense quote unquote, salt of the earth type people, know they have a lot of hard work every month of the year People think that farmers have it easy. They don't. It's a lot of sun up to sund down and beyond hours every day of very hard work and they don't have time for a lot of nonsense or goofing around W likeike even like making a suit and running around the field. someome do, but, you know, for the folks that experience this They're very no nonsense type folks. and I understand these types of people and I think you want to, you know, if you're not a total huckster you have a ethical and moral sense to tell the truth about these folks that had a pretty horrible experience And so that's one aspect to it. And the other thing is that this lines up quite a bit with other stories that Scott is going to talk to us about happening in Wales around this time. And so this is really an overdue segment of this whole story of the experience of whales in in the late seventies with varying factors here of experience because this is the other thing that ties in is that I always look to, as you were saying, Rich, you know these are broken down to or you can break these down into just incidents like this happened on this date This is what this person reported seeing But it doesn't really give you the whole picture of what the human experience is because as I always say, These weird things can happen, but really the more important thing to us as humans is how do we react to it What did it do to us? What do we take away from it? Where's the meaning, the human meaning for it for the rest of us that may or may not believe in this Because again, things can happen, these peranamal events can happen, but they don't happen in a vacuum. they are experienced and from our perspective, we're not going to make much sense of this at this point in time knowing why these beings did what they did or not or if this is all a hoax, why that happened or not But we can begin to understand how it affects humans and what we take away from it. So there were other cases because it one reminded me of you know our one of our main heroes here, the story, Billy, nearly or did get punched by somebody else who was like, you got to stop talking about this. You're ruining all the property values. You're freaking everybody out. You got to stop mate and then he got so upset he punched him or or tried toil he took a swing at him. Same thing happened to Dave Davis in the other in the Broadhaven case. And and Scott, so yeah, tell us a little about or refresh our memories about The other cases that were happening around this time Right. So we got we gott to come back on this a little bit and Rich, this is back when we first became friends, but back in twenty eighteen, right? When did we meet? We met twenty seventeen. Yeah, right before that. So and then we had in person on march eighth, twenty seventeen. I just want to say for all who celebrate. if you want to celebrate when Scott and Forrest and Richard met person for the first time, it was march eighth, twenty seventeen. Okay go ahead. How do you know that It's all written down for us. I kept track of everything you've Wa, so we're coming up on ten years. just We just had our eighth year anniversary. I celebrated privately. I don't want to describe it Okay, I don't want to hear it either. All right, so here's what I was going to call back to. We did three shows that were connected together in a art kind of way back in twenty eighteen, episodes one hundred, thirteen, fourteen and fifteen. The first one we did on the Berwin Mountain UFO incident, which predates this particular flap by about three years or four, which isn't a long time That was a particularly noted happening that took place in Wales was a loud explosion, flash of light, noody could find anything. and was there were tons of phone calls that came in. and this was the episode that I famously said, nine hundred ninety nine phone calls when what the point was that over there at nine hundred eleven is nine hundred ninety nine and I sounded like a complete idiot and had to correct that a few episodes later And then we had our good friend Rehese Waters on for that. who's a former BBC producer. He has actually since moved across the pond many years ago and he had a podcast For a while called Canadian politics is boring. That is now Canada is boring and it's a hit podcast. So check that out. Canada is boring with Rehese Waters. Anyway, he was our guest. He shared a bunch of research with us on the Berwin Mountain incident. So we did that. Then episode one hundred fourteen, we had our mutual friend that we all know, Rob Christopfferson on from his show, which he is currently on hiatus, I think, called our Strange Skies. And Rob is a esoteric UFO expert with just all the most mundane and strangest details of the strangest story. So he came on and actually talked about this case, which we're going to be talking about tonight. But at that time, we hadn't read the book. Now we have read the book and we're read up on it and I want to really dive into it this evening. And then right after that, on episode one fifteen, we had David Davison, who was an eyewitness with the other school childildren at what happened in Broadhaven, which is just a couple of miles away. and this was within a couple of a week or two of everything that we're talking about tonight taking place. So that's part of the exact same flap And for me, and I think for Forest two The fact that we've had David on that he was a ten year old there. We'll play a clip from that show here in a little bit. what he saw that day That for me says Something happened here, no matter how dramatized this book is and what the story is with the Coombs family and their farm and all the things that they went through, which you heard some of in the Cld openen Part of for me, what keeps me from dismissing that is like, oh, this is just this something weird happened that they couldn't put their finger on. and this writer was told to come in ride on the coattails of the release of close encounters and blew it up into a big thing. It's like, you might convince me to say that if there wasn't a lot of outside things going on around this story. But there was a huge amount of things going on in Wales at this time And we have had an eyeewitness on the show who's talked about it. So that is just sort of the lead in here This's why we're coming back to this because this is one of the most prominent flaps in history, reallyally, and for humanity. this is right up there with Roswell, which is why they call Broadhaven and Ros Welsh. So That is kind of setting the stage for all of this stuff. So let's look at this timeline of. So nineteen seventy four, late January of nineteen seventy four was the Berwin Mountain incident. That's the one we talked about. We had Ris on talked about that in episode one hundred and thirteen of our show Explosion, Earthquake type thing. The military came. No crater was found official line later was it was an earthquake in a meteor shower that happened at the same time That's what That's how they explain that. In April of nineteen seventy four, just a few months later, the US Navy commissioned a SoS submarine tracking station near RF Bdy, BRAWDY, which is right next to this area that we're talking about tonight September that same year. The Jet weapons unit arrives at RAF Brody that was a tactical weapons unit flying hawker hunters. So there's a lot of There's a lot going on in the sky. It's reasonable to think people might see some unusual stuff here because they are literally surrounded by cutting edge technology both above and below. That's what Pauline was saying is that they were used to seeing all this military action and even Billy right after the big first incident here that you're going to mention goes out and it's like They're wondering. it's like, what could have happened that the Royal Air Force The Navy and the Amy are all together working together in one incident on the land and in the water. and what they told him was like, well, there was a bit of a landlide so we're reconstructing it. and he's like on the land and underwater. Like obviously something's right So then in December of ' seventy six, two years after all that military stuff is getting set up and also the Berwin Mountain incident The Defed flap begins and there's a book about this. and this is where people are seeing cigar and saucer shappecraft Stange lights all across Pemburghire. And investigator Randall Jones Pugh had predicted that. He wrote a book about it, which right now is very hard to get. It's not on Kindle. I couldn't find it any digital copies of it. It's on Amazon for like two hundred thirty bucks. I don't if you have that one, Rich. No, I do not yet. DYFED, it's Welsh, so but it's deffed Yeah so it looks like Di Fed. I did find it on Abe For like a warn copy for like thirty bucks, it's already on its way to me but I won't get it tillil next wee But it's very expensive when you first look for it anywhere So moving on to nineteen seventy seven, january fourteenth, Pauline's first sighting, that's the swinging light hovering over the field Billing went and investigated that, found nothing late that same month That's when they had all these electrical problems with the televisions, the cars, the housewiring burning out, lotots of problems. they had called an electrician out And I remember this fact in the book for folks that were interested. The electrician was there. the power was cut off to the house and the meter was still spinning likey. There was nothing supposed to be going in that moment So I do have some questions about like what's going on there. Late January, early February, their car is actually chased by some kind of orange globe and the car dies. They abandon the car and run the rest of the way home Then february fourth, Broadhaven school sighting. fourteen children see a silver domed cigar shapecraft in the field behind their school. The headmaster has them draw it separately under exam conditions and the drawings match After that, the school story is what takes everything national. The Cb story was kind of quiet until the school story went global. That was a big deal Then in the spring after that That's when they see the figure on the porch in the farmhouse window with its palm on the glass They call the police, the police come they're freaked out. the police come and it vanishes. And that's another thing that folks need to know. The beings that everyone is seeing in the Coombs family They flick in and out of existence instantly when other folks are showing up or even when they appear and no one's there, no witnesses are there, they appear instantly. So that's another thing to keep in mind. whatever's happening, these things are either controlling our reality, if you believe in this at all, or they have some kind of cloaking device or their existing interdimensionalimensional shes. deffinitely on that thing because There are some things that come into our realm. Rich is holding up his pencil mug with our slogan. Yes Yeah, there's something Yeah, that explains a lot and we're getting that's much more of a leaned on hypothesis cururrently is that there is some frequency tuning here coming in and out of our reality and that they're able to do that at will, but it's not entirely perfect like some guys kind of come out after the first incident here was seeing the Being. There's a massive like two foot long That's only one footprint. That's right seeing it nothing going after it. That's right. Sometimes like big foot sightings, just one big foot footprint. What is going on? Right. So then now in the spring, this is when the neighbor, Julia Morrison, who is I think basically on the farm next door, she reported a craft in faceless silver figures walking around her farm, matching exactly what the Combs described And if I'm not, I can't remember, but I'm pretty sure they hadn't said to her what they saw She called and said, I saw this over here and it matched what had already happened to them. Yes. It's a literary device that happens in the book and it may very well be reflecting reality But someone in the Combs family will have an experience that is described to us And then subsequently someone will call up and go Pauline, I hope you're sitting down. I need to tell you what just happened to me. and then they relate the exact same story Yes, whichich is horrifying.'s good. I'm glad that you it is a literary device. So then the question becomes is that part of the manipulation there So april nineteenth now, Rosa Granville, the hotel sighting. That's when she sees a saucer and two silver faceless figures near the hotel. And she wrote to her MP in Parliament Like what is going on here? Now one thing I will say about this and this is interesting and compiling all the research for this episode It has been reported in lots of places that Ros's sighting was in January, but it actually was in April. and April is after some people were definitively confessing to and it's believed we're actually doing hoaxes with the silver outfits And that's a wholen discussion, but essentially they were wearing asbestos fire suits and going out and freaking people out. And I think one of them stopped after he almost got shot But that's the thing about Ros'ide at the hotel. It could be that They went and spooked to her. I think in fact, they might have confessed to going over there. That doesn't change what the Comb saw in their porch much earlier. The two men in the silent car. This is when their neighbor, Carol and separately, Rose's daughter are approached by two identical waxy skinned men in a silent silver car who ask for Pauline Coombs by name And then they seem to vanish and reappear. And these guys, what's interesting is you read about this and people are like, well, it's a silver car. It feels a little bit like it wasn't a car, but they can't decide can't figure out how to describe it, the people that are telling the story. What else is it Is it a craft? Is it hovering off the gr? you know, is it a lands speeder from Star Wars? whatever it is. they couldn't describe. No it's the Deloreian from backack to the future. That's what it is Yeah with all the stuff on the back ipping around. and leaving track markarks full of fire. Yeah. one thing I will say what's interesting thing before I forget when we're talking about the appearance of the med and black figures and their descriptions you know very tall robotic flat voices. Yeah, grotesquely tall foreheads with large glassy eyes One thing I noticed that was interesting is that because they showed up at the Com's house and asked for Pauline. They asked the eldest son if she was there And then they showed up at the you know, in an instant then they're at the neighboring cottage where Carol, I believe is the nurse who lives there. She said she saw them at the doorstep One remains in the car. This is always the pattern. One remains in the car. The other one goes to the house to the doorstep. She sees them at the front door. obviously he didn't get entry. than goodness. And then zips around to the back of the house and next thing she knows Now She's at her place which is like it's impossible to get there like ten seconds. Right. And so he just shows up and then they just kind of vanish And then the other thing is that she saw them drive down away from the farm the Riperston Fm and there's only one way in or out on a very narrow road and Pauline was driving into the house. She should have seen them as the sun said and also Carol said Well, you should they should have passed you because I didn't see anybody at all Right. So they vanish, they come in and out of existence But the other thing is that This is one weird thing. They go to the houses They have this omniscient apparent ability to show up anywhere at any time They know the names of the people. They say, is Pauline Hol they go to Cheryl's cottage is Pauline They go to Rosa they and Ros at the hotel there. They to Rose's daughter who's going to Uni in Spain She's home for the summer They freak her out, but they ask her Where's Rosa So they know your name, who told them that? But they don't know when you're home That's my thing. It's like they haven't got the microip implanted yet. So they can't It's like someone so home like you know all this other stuff, but you know our names, but you don't know when they're actually home Yeah, there's that dissonance of They're hyper advanced with these craft But then when they have to come all the way down and interact with us, then it's this whole other thing. It's like, oh God we right I'm physical And we're gonna take the car. Oh my God, am I driving? I'm sitting in the car. I'm not going. You will I' of these houses already.. It's this whole other thing Right. And it's like, oh my God, do you have those wigs we need? Is this wig this sock I can't even cover my hand. out how to eat aake. I need the waxy, G me the makeup. Give me the waxy makeup. It's like, this doesn't look good. It doesn't matter. We've got to find Pauline. just do it. Richard, what was the other case? Was that a Kel case Where the men in black was he was in the restaurant and the waitress said he was really weird looking. He didn't he ordered a steak. seemed like I didn't know how to how toat utensils. Yeah. Yeah. ye. Maybe that's where they got their taste Yeah. I believe was looking at myd. Why didn't you train him how to use cutlery? The point being is that yeah, they only get there's some things they obviously don't care about. It's like the Terry Lovely story. It's like and the Betty and Barney Hill story. It's just like All right, we did our little poking and prodding and with the needles and whatnot and the and the hypnotic lights Now it's time to put the clothes back on. justust do your best.ust we gott to get out of here. Come on, justust just put the dress on. I don't care if it's backwards or forwards. I don't care if Terry socks are on sideways and the boots are loose. Just get them on. We gott to get out of here. Do the socks go on the top legs or the bottom leg? It doesn't matter.'s I'm sure that the guy the chief is like like just get them on the feet. Come on, man, you know We got we gott to get out of here. But being seriously, it's like they get some so far, it's like they have infinite knowledge almost. and There's some parts it's like it's not important. It's like, it's just It doesn't matter to them because we did our thing we needed to. It's incredibly scary though. I mean, hearing that and just hearing how bad they are and how uncanny valley their appearces. Yeah, they don't get it right It is so disturbing. Is the purpose like maybe they didn't care that Pauline was home or rose up Granville, did the wife of the one of the owners of the hotel there. It was just that they made an appearance to freak people out. Wh knows But the idea was that that's one thing Pauling said, I wish you would have talked to him because I want to know what they were asking Why do they show up? What's the point of that? Yeah. And you don't get that. I mean, and other men in bllack cases It's to warn you from digging deeper. It's like, hey, don't look into that, you know, you didn't see anything, right? Okay, donon't make us come back here. Which sounds much more like it fits into a government conspiracy narrative of you know, these are government guys saying, you didn't see anything, forget it. But it's like Andrew Cold in a way. It's the thing that's trying to look human and it can't quite do it that that I think in a way to me, there's nothing scarier. No, that's what freaks people out about the doppelganger experience is that was trying to really hard to look like my sister But it had a haircut that she had from two weeks ago before her prior haircut. It's not quite right. And that's what disturbs us because that's the uncanny part of the valley. is that it's not your're off. It' And it gets into we're in Joshua Cutchin territory because it gets into fairy lore where the story is of the changeling, where it's the child that looks just like your child that went into the woods and has now come back out. but there's something different about their behavior their moods, their personality. It maybe something some slight physical difference and and it's just the fact that it's a little bit off. Yeah, so it's very strange. I found that to be one of the most interesting, intriguing and disturbing, probably in a way the most disturbing thing And that's why that case is so prominent, much like the case with the school kids in Zimbabwe, which is a different story. But it's interesting to me when these things show themselves to school kids and especially when they're all corroborating each other's events So that for me is like, okay, this is more than just a little bit of a freak thing like Kelly Hopkinsville stands on its own. It's like, that's just this, you know, there's a lot of strange things going on there. But there wasn't a lot of other reports in the same area or in the same time. But in this case, there were. Yeah. and it wasn't just them. It was their friend Rosa living across the bay who had experiences. It was that woman Carol who lived, I guess in a cottage on their property. Like next door. There were other people there. I mean, there was another farmer who was involved in this sort of Cattle herard shell game that was being played in the area. Right. That was Paul and his wife that came to stay with them for for investigating and. Yeah, yeah, the two UFO experts who were there, who witnessed. There was the other farmer, Martin or whatever his name was, was the one who kept calling and saying Why are your cattle in my field? And Billy Coombs is like, I literally just lock them up. Like I heard the phone ringing and turned away from the cattle hearing comp it comes back to the c it's not possible. So it's yeah. Right, which he didn't want to admit because then he's like, I look crazy. He's like, I look crazy on every level. First of all, I have teleporting cattle. Second of all, I can't take care of or keep track of my own cattle. Even without the UFO component, that's embarrassing for a farmer. So there's like all these reasons when he's just like At one point, he's like, yeah, I got a new, I got a new guy and he hasn't figured out how things should work yet. sorry, I'come. You literally think about that for a second For all the accusations of lying He lies to deny the paranormal evidence that he just saw because it's easier than trying to explain it And to Frest's point of of the I think was it was it Clinton or Kirin who got punched in a bar because he had spoken out loud about Billy Billy experiences he was like Yeah Yeah Oh, that's the dad. Billy was the dad. Yeah. Well, but I will say this when people are getting physically attacked and beaten for saying they had a supernatural experience, my question is, How many people in that area equal or even greater experiences and never said a word. Oh yeah, because why were you? Right. And that gets to a thing too. and I don't know, I mean, I'm sure a lot of our listeners, probably most of them live in smaller communities. there's listeners in big cities too. We've all done different parts of that kind of life But and this is something I mentioned on the main show a long time ago, but I had a friend, a family friend, very dear friend of the family Her and her husband and kids, they bought some land up in the mountains in North Carolina The problem was formerly It had been, I think, an apple orchard or some kind of orchard, and it turned out that the ground was horrifically polluted. Like the groundwater was bad, like the houses were essentially valueless And word got out about that and they had just moved to town, but it was still enough that when they would go into town, people would be laughing at them for having bought in this land they'd be at the grocery store and stuff like that. When just think about how brutal like locals can be And these are established members of this community, but this It's like you said, Forest earlier, it's, you know, it's affecting the property value. There's all these kinds of things that you know, and maybe it's good if you have a hotel or you want tourists to come. It's bad if you want your farm to have any value in the future or for your kids. Right. I mean, here's the way to look at it. I think if you have a hotel, and it's funny because one of the things that first jumped out of me in in the earlier chapters of the book is that like wait, I know Rosa. I remember reading about her strictly from the newspaper articles that came with the Broadhaven incident because she commented and she ended up in the papers like that's a very satisfying connection. When you go to read that. it's like, o, I know this person. But totally independent of anything else because of another incident that happened and she was very vocal Remember she was the woman originally from Spain So she's a Spaniard and as they say in the book, that kind of feisty temper of hers, it's like No, no, this is really happening. The government needs to do something because it looks like we're under threat here It's your responsibility to protect us or at least give us answers. You need to do something And she was very vocal about it, but no less affected and freaked out But she was the one who reported the papers because u And people say like, while, you're just doing that to increase your stay at the hotel and get, you know, get visitors in Well, some that are weirdos like us that like this kind of thing, we might stay there. But I would say the majority of people like what? that's going on This ladady is reporting it. I'm not going there And so you could say you know, there's a half and half thing. It's like, Yeahah, you report a hotel to be haunted You're going to get ghost hunter types and people that are into that. but most other folks are going to stay away, which is generally why hotel management does not want you to talk about rooms or hotels being haunted becausecause it has a negative. I totally agree. That is a very recent thing the sort of legend tripping, I want to go and stay in the haaunted Hotel. That was not something even when when I, you know, was writing Mothman back in the nineties, That was not a thing really. I think with the rise of the internet and people sort of talking about their own local legends, it's become sort of a niche area of travel. I really question the theory that in nineteen seventy seven, Someone thought, if I say I'm seeing a bunch of disturbing lights flying around in the sky above my hotel I'm going get a lot more people staying. You're gonna to scare off more people than you're gonna to get. Yeah That's true. Maybe it works in your favor now. Maybe it didn't then. I mean, that's And then of course it's like, oh, the people are crazy. None of this happened, but these people that are there are crazy. Want to avoid them. Well, one thing I found interesting as well is that you had the children, you know, the principal asked them to do the drawings. Same thing with the Aerial school and how they were all similar. It's like, o, children make up stuff. But when there's a consensus of the drawings, like with Dave Davis I think there's something there even with the active childhood imaginations. in connection to that, you do wonder did anybody take a darn photo of anything But it's funny. I just had a posted something about this happened last week, I believe overver Memorial Day weekend, when a group of teenagers said they were stalked or mildly harassed by Multiple Big fooots, multiple Sasquatches. this would be in Parma Idaho, southern Idaho And they had this a lot of encounters that they relayed. And one of our dear listeners here, I think Joe Kyle on X said for what this is worth, group of teenagers and not one got a picture on their phone Which is a very valid comment on that. correct me if I'm wrong, Scott. didid anybody take a photo of the Ripperston farm incident? Did anybody get any kind of photography? I haven't seen any pictures. They're not mentioned in the book, Rich. Have you seen anything to that effect? Becauseuse I didn't see No Yeah. I've never seen any picture reflecting the phenomenon. Yeah Here's the thing, it's circular argument anyway, because first of all, the reality is and on the Lyle Blackburn episode you were referring to that Yes, that I just dropped, we were having the same conversation. I have not, and I haven't heard that one yet. I'm sorry but I am going to listen to it. so it's exceedingly difficult to take a picture of anything in nature. If I told you You've got all day tomorrow to go take a picture of a bird in flight in your neighborhood I would be stunned if you got a picture that was identifiable as a bird. Right R take a picture of an airplane. Take a picture of an thereir. I mean I live in LA. There's airplanes and helicopters going all the time Yeah In nineteen seventy seven, people obviously weren't walking around with cameras all the time But the other problem now is with the cameras that we have, Their use is to get a good picture of you and your friends in a restaurant That's right. Yeah. And they've been improved to the point where They're photographing not what is actually in. If you try to take a picture of the full moon It's impossible Because the iPhone is balancing for other looks like daylight. It looks like daylight. Exactly.. So anything you're getting on an iPhone isn't gonna to look right. adddd to the fact that there's a million apps that can, you make it look like you took an eerie photo of a UFO. Photographic evidence these days means very, very id And in the old days, people weren't walking around with cameras And there has never been a bit of physical evidence of any sort that hasn't been argued into the ground for whatever reason, good or bad by anyone who comes from that point of view. Again, this notion that, while we're all walking around with Camerasooder pockets, how come we don't have pictures of UFO's is an argument that doesn't hold water in. No, And it doesn't matter. That's kind of my point too is that how come nobody has any photos? like, will we do There's a million of them on the internet Certainly a lot of folks don't And back then, it doesn't matter how good they are. Look at the Calvine photo and how relatively clear that is with A jet in the background reference even. And have it framed. Yeah.'s got's got a fram be framed about fifteen feet from me right now that I got from James Fox. My dad was a photographer and videoographer and cinematographer. And so I was trained to operate all manner of cameras And I'm pretty good and Im good on the quick draw. evenven though you think it's pretty quick to snap a thing before it totally vanishes. And then often when you look at it, it looks like nothing. certainly nothing that you would argue for And in my case, the second point of this Gting back to what Joe Kyle said I think maybe what's going on as well in a lot of these cases and perhaps what was happening with the group of teenagers from Parma, Idaho, is that there's a bit of paranormal apathy. happening or shock to the sense that it doesn't even occur to you in the moment until afterwards. there's something that happens when you're so stunned like that that it doesn't occur to you in the moment because you're in a relatively you know, mild state of shock or a great state of shock On the other hand, there might be some kind of Let's say force that is preventing you in a way from doing that. And that's what we call paranormal aathy where it doesn't occur. And for my own sighting I stared at what was happening in the sky for about a minute before I wondered Is anything happening And by the time I saw something unusual happening, it was too late So there's a lot of reasons that photos aren't taken, but that might be the case here is that yeah, they just may not have had a camera or They're so shocked and traumatized by what's going on that It doesn't occur to them that they need to provide proof to combat all the naysayers. So there's a lot of different reasons, but yeah, it's very strange. And until you're in that moment And that's the classic trope iss like, would you get a photo? Like, No, sorry, I didn't or you take something and it's gone or there was another case with a British woman, I just saw on a show and this is another major sighting where she did get some photos. of workers after the fact in odd clothes out cleaning up the site But while it was happening, she said, yeah, there was about I was standing in a group of about eight people. We all got out our phones, None of them worked. Becauseuse I don't know what happened. they worked afterwards This episode is sponsored by Better Help And the theme they sent this month got me thinking. It's about how to thrive in the summer instead of just surviving it. Yeah Right, which is a real distinction. you know for some Summer' is the best stretch of the year. You know, the kids are out of school, traravel picks up, you know, there's room to breathe But for others, it's juggling everything at once. counting the days until September. For me, I'm in the Thrive camp. We get to the beach in Wilmington here with the family whenever we can grab a break and you and I keep the show schedule a little lighter this time of year on purpose so everybody can decompress a little. Yeah, that's right, than goodness for that. You know, we built that in, but not everybody feels allowed to do that. That's right. A lot of folks say yes to everything all summer and then they wonder why they're more wiped out in August than they were in June. Yeah we often feel that way anyway, you know, but that's where therapy can help Figuring out what you need, getting comfortable setting a boundary and then building a summer that feels good instead of when you just get through. And betterter help does the matching work for you? You fill out a short questionnaire and with twelve plus years of experience, they typically get it right the first time. 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And yeah, is he on the bed behind you right now? L at his butt? Yes, yeah, yeah. what about it? That's what he does. Yeah, well anyway, you found him when he was like six weeks old or something and then now he runs your entire house. Yeah. He does actually, year're and a half in and he owns the place for sure. We did rescue him as a tiny, dirty ball of fur outside of Chick Fil and now he's a glossy little carnivore A lot of that, by the way, is his food. Yeah, Smalls, right? Because you know, food is medicine. That's right. Smalls. he actually goes a little feral for it, honestly. Smalls is fresh, gently cooked food made without preservatives, human grade ingredients, the kind of stuff you'd find in your own fridge. Which matters more than people think. you know, most cat food, even some big name brands run on cheap fillers. You know, stuff like grains, artificial ingredients, meat byy products, and none of that is really great for a cat. 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So stop serving your little carnivore a bowl of processed shortcuts For limited time, because you are an astonishing leegends listener Get sixty percent off your first order, plus free shipping and free treats for life When you head to smalls dot com slash aL. That's sixty percent off your first order, plus free shipping and free treats for life when you head to smalls dot com slash aL This is Matt Drew Curator of Mysteries and you're listening to astonishing leegends. Now back to the show . Let's talk a little bit about some of the incidents that they dealt with here because that actually circles back kind of perfectly into what was happening to the Coombs family. because one of the things that they talk about in the book was they went through a ton of televisions. Their televisions were all dying and cars. They had cars where all the wiring was going bad. Everything but copper apparently is what's pointed out in the book. For some reason, the copper wasn't having problems, but The TV's, I got the impression there wasn't a hard count, but I got the impression they went through three, four, maybe five televisions that were just dying over and over. when things were happening. And the other thing, Rich, coming back to your point about the dramatization One other thing that I felt like Clive's book did a lot was It alluded to the possibility that there were behavioral issues going on with the cattle, for example They're just saying, Well, yeah, I don't know, I can't figure out why those cows don't want to go in that field anymore or whatever. And they never really followed up on it. They just sort of implied that there was extra things that were bizarre in terms of the animal behavior. and maybe that's related to the animals experiencing things that the humans aren't witnessing. Did you take that away too, Rich? or like Yeah, I mean, I think in talking to Billy If you were sitting down interviewing him as this guy did you know, that's his job. I mean, this is a guy who's getting up at N Animal husbandry. Every night for six months Yeah to go out and check on who who's pregnant, who's getting pregnant, who's about to cf What's happening out there He is like really, really intimately familiar with the behavior of his cows and his hed because that is his job So when I hear a guy like that say The cattle were acting weird. they were acting spook that field of delicious grass should have been drawing them And for some reason they weren't going. And then later on, I went and looked in the field and there was a giant fiftyot diameter circle that was burned out And he makes a connection. It's like, yeah, okay. the guy knows his hed. so I'll listen to his opinion of They were acting right differently than they should normally act. When we look at how this chain of events unfolds, here's what I think you know the first thing that they start with in the book and this they pin down to january fourteenth of ' seventy seven was that Pauline Combs, she's, I think she's in the kitchen maybe like or was looking out the window or whatever and she sees this light floating like a pendulum back and forth that she got a distinct feeling and this is psychological component too, what somehow either looking at her or interacting or knew that it was looking at her. I know that you know that you're looking at me kind of thing. And then it was doing the falling leaf thing, which is something that Forst brought to my attention. We're like, how often does this come up? It seems to come up all the time. It's like, what is that about? Like already we're having to say, all right, we don't understand the physics of this. Is it interdimensional? Is it is it just poking through from another dimension and we're only seeing it partially? How is it making these you know, right angle turns that would kill anything organic and all of that kind of stuff. it's so far outside the realm of our understanding because the other question is, why is it acting like a falling leaf? but that's what she saw, a light doing that outside her window in the distance happens all the time. That is almost the number one sort of weird observation people make is that falling leaf motion that I Look, if there is something in the natural world that does that that everyone is mistaking, let me know. But it doesn't even make sense to me aeronautically. I don't even know why a UFO would be doing that but apparently it does. And the only thing I've ever thought about and somehow connects for me is the old a When you're hypnotizing someone in an old movie And you're waving the watch in front of them. Yeah. Yeah. what it does is it does, but it puts you in this altered state of consciousness which people describe as sort of the oz effect when they are interacting with something supernatural and This connects with the fact that maybe people aren't going for their phones and people aren't calling to other people, Hey, come over here, look at this It's the thing that J. Allen Heineck called the UFO experience because After interviewing hundreds of people He got to the point where it's like What's interesting here isn't necessarily just what they're talking about. It's the way the people talk about what they talk about when they talk about UFOs. Is not a book? That's a book title, isn't it? The kinds of words they use. yeah by Raven Carver That's right. Yes, right. You know, it's a whole thing when you're interacting with something that is not part of your everyday experience in which might be supernatural And I think people have the same thing when they I think people have a bigfoot experience It's like I had a gun, but I didn't want to shoot it because it looked real. Sometimes people describe getting some sort of telepathic message. I mean, it's a whole experience. And so I've always wondered if the falling leaf is about ye hypnotizing people somehow That's one of the biggest explanations I think that I've heard that makes sense in that it is Part of that experience and I don't know why if that is, you know, you have to talk to cognitive scientists and neurologists about Do that motion or action or that perception of something like that actually have a physiological neurological effect on the brain and this one of mind control. This is the beginning of. Because we've learned a lot that some of these cliched things actually have some effect in the real world. And it also connects up with something that I talked about in my podcast earlier this year when I did induced after Death communication, the book by Alan Bodkin. I know you guys heard the episode because I know you obsessively listen to everything. I'm catching up, yes. But in this one, they talk about EMDR, eye movement desensitization and reprocessing That's a thing used in in psychology sometimes that has to do with sort of moving your fingers back and forth in front of the subject's eyes and so that the eyes jerk back and forth in a way that almost imitates Rem. Yes. That's right. But it actually does something physical that has a psychological effect puts you in a receptive state or someome sort of state that allows you in the case of EMDR to sort of Think about a traumatic experience and reprocess it. hopefully get past the sort of That sort of freezing up feeling that trauma can give you and that post traumatic stress disorder can give you. So it's like when those people like rub a shark's belly and it just rolls over and chills out, that's what they're doing. That's what the aliens are doing to us It's rhythmic. It's something's I know you'ing you're not being flippid, but there's something to that and it's that rhythmic stimulation that produces a desired effect. And what we have here is that it's the introductory signal from something that is trying to communicate or interact with you in some way. And I do believe that there's a purpose to that because you think about it logically from a human monkey perspective Okay, so you're on this craft. And obviously, you know, now the thinking is that they create their own space time. bubble around them. so they're not affected by gravity, which is why they can do you know, one hundred you ninety degree turns instant acceleration, which would kill anybody else in a conventional craft That's how they get away with it. because otherwise you'd just be, you know, doing that pendulum leaf falling thing and be like who Like how is that? It' like the thing at the county fair when you're on the How was that Great wings back and forth For the occupants of a UOO or pilots is like how is that effective or you know, even if you couldn't Even if you're looking out the window, you're going to get car sick or UFO sick And it's like does that making sense? Why do they do That's not generally part of what you would say logical propulsion movement, but why does that happen? Because it is the same thing as another technique is to use a piano metronome which has the ticking also, which is rhythmic and that's an auditory kind of thing that puts you. Yeah. And I was just looking this up and it's saying it's that's all of this is referred to as a focusing prop. So it's less about like what it's doing This goes back toesmar, of course, and then also how that progressed into like stage shows with hypnotism, but like it's less about what it's doing and just you focusing in on it. is the same way you start a session of meditation. It's like by focusing on the breathing so that your mind can't think about other things or stuff like that. But that still overlaps with what we're saying could be happening here with this swaying of the craft It doesn't come up til later in the book, but there is in this case and in many, many other cases that of course, the listeners have heard about is a feeling when a person sees a UFO often say I got a feeling like It was telling me notot to be afraid and to just kind of forget the whole thing. Yeah You know, or it was giving me some kind of telepathic message And yeah, that is a part of it. That is a part of seeing a UFO. Yeah. and I will say it starts off all a lot of these stories in the book the encounters start off the same way. You have somebody who is purortedly very skeptical, which I tend to believe. you they've never experienced this before. Why would they? why would they have any thoughts about it other than It's all rubbish And then you first think it's a flare becausere you are by several military installations in the area and they do see flares as Pauline says like, oh, I've seen lots of military flares. This didn't look anything like it, but that's what your mind goes to first because that's the most logical And so you see that and then it turns into something else. and then you see this movement. And so you have this pendulum like movement that doesn't seem to make sense to us other than to lull us into being receptive for something S kind of communication But overall, I would say the point that I wanted to make is that you could say, you know again, we'll get more towards the end here about the skeptical side of it, which there are some valid points People are making up these stories And maybe you say, well, this went to coincide with all the know close encounters hype for the movie and thisn andt coming out. Well, we've all, most of us have seen that movie None of these concepts that are happening in this book are really I know it's a different story But none of the concepts other than some very basic things about, as I mentioned earlier, group frequency tuning where everybody shows up and they don't know why from different backgrounds because they are there to document this in their own way all these other things that are mentioned are pretty novel concepts for caveat being if this is being accurately reported and written about byike Clive evenven if they weren't, even if they were making this up. he would have to be very knowledgeable and well read researcher in the UFO field. to begin with And if he is accurately reporting what he's being told These farming folks would have to be very knowledgeable because all of this stuff tracks what they're reporting as very sophisticated reportage of their experiences, the movement of the craft. the look of the beings. physical effects that they have All very Skinwalker ranch predate skinwalker ranch by at least a decade. And so you have all all these same effects. It's like, man, that is some very creative shenanigans going on here. some Tom Foolery. in the details that they're expressing, it's like That's pretty sophisticated for nineteen seventy seven Because those certainly weren't concepts I was familiar with Be a kid and liking UFO lore at the time. I'd never heard of these until you start reading the books and getting in depth. And so Like I said, that's pretty unusual that they were coming up with these You know, the men in black The descriptions of the waxy skin, the tall foreheads, the glassy eyes The robots with no face, whatever they were, the gliding instead of walking, all these things that are mentioned in the book as having been observed are part of UFO Canon now But again Press the end for nineteen seventy seven And as far as the family's credibility, there may not be pictures of the UFO's in this book, but there are pictures of the family. and their farm, their're real people. They're out there. Yeah. the neighbors know them and Apparently to the degree that anyone knew what was happening with them This was not something that was helping them They exist. Right. So the constant questioning of, you know, oh, well, what's really it's like, well Family exists, we see pictures of them, we know their names, we know where they live, and they said this stuff happened, as did others I want to go back to the aliens that they saw because that's the weirdest part to me. Anyt timee anyone sees a tall alien I'm freaking out Yeah Beuse I'm like you like to short ke one. I know You got the Nordics, but these didn't sound like Nordics. Th sounded like robots from outer space, which is Very, very weird. That is something that's come up a lot. So and for people, obviously, people should read the book because it'll inform this. We're not going to rehash the whole book here, but one of the things that happened was one of these beings showed itself on the front porch and it was seven feet tall, the head was so high up, it was they couldn't see it from through the window frame, which was already very tall And it was peering in and it had a silver suit on and no face. And this is something that came up with other witnesses too. It was like just black where the face should be which is really interesting. We just did a dead letter. It will have already posted, I think by the time this episode runs, maybe not, but where somebody saw ghost like thing whose face was static likeike a snow on a television like poltergey like black dots. Yeah, that was the u, that was a Shropsure house incident, not too far away, you know, certainly compared to us here in the state. So that's the other thing about this though And that's something I don't think we've conveyed yet This story oververlaps in paranormal lore with two distinct genres of behavior and activity, really three if you count this cattle situation. So one of the things is One of the kids sees a black mass moving around inside the house. They come back to the house, Ebody's away. The dad and this I can't remember which son it was, but out they're out working. He comes back to the house and won't go inside. Dad comes up, Billy and is like, What's the matter? And he's like, there's something in there. I saw it moving all around. bl you know, maybe vaguely humanoid shape moving around inside the house, which was locked and no one should have been in there That's like a haunting. That's a spooky sort of haunting type of situation And then there are other things that start to feel poltergeisty and ghost like And that's in addition to the famil seeing the UFO's. And then by the way, also people all over the area are seeing UFOs and strange things are happening And then that progresses to the cattle situation, which we've alluded to. and to be more clear on this, we've talked about a little bit. J an overview of that situation is that the Coombs family has a hundred head of cattle And as we said, Billy Coombbs that's his thing. He is into running the farm as efficiently as he can and he's does he practices animal husbandry, which they point out in the book or the author, Clive points out very much that a lot of farmers, they call the vets when it comes time to do the husbandry stuff. and that stuff is hard. Everything I know about it, I admit, I have learned from watching Jeremy Clarksons showow Clarkson's Fm But I am telling you, just from seeing that, I have seen how difficult it is to do all this stuff. So this guy's doing that himself. He can save money by not calling vets and managing it personally. And as Rich said, he's very in touch with the animals and knowing where they're at and what's going on with them. And they mean a lot to them him personally. I mean, they say you're not supposed to name your cattle, but and they don't talk about names. but you get the feeling that he was connected to his livestock And the family was in general too, and they took pride in the work they were doing. So they got to the point where during the time of year that they it was time for calving and mating and all that, he was there paying attention to what was going on, making sure, you know that there weren't any issues with stillborn calves or other kinds of things happening. He even liked to keep track of which bull was getting with which cows. and I guess that informed all kinds of things about behavior So he's managing all that stuff And then he's getting to the point and this was after if correct me if I'm wrong, Rich and I don't want to quote me on this or youuphorest. I'm pretty sure there was a lull in activity. Like all these things happened and then they had a couple months where not much was going on Yeah. And that was the other thing that I did like and I thought Clive put through in the book, he put this forward in a very clear way was that They were so focused on running the farm and getting back to it, that whenever the things started to die down, they were very interested in Okay, it's over. whatever it was, we don't know. it's over. let's get back to our lives. This is all we got. We got our farm here and this is what we need to do. And I believe there was a couple of months after seeing the UFO, seeing this giant seven foot silver preacure or being on the porch experiencing other things in the home that That's when the first thing happened with the cattle. and I think I even texted you, Rich because I was like, oh my God I'm on page eighty one and this you know the cattle entire herd of cattle has vanished. And I was like, oh, wait, where do we know this from? We know this from the Skinwalker Ranch story, the original one, the first book about Skinwalker Ranch. There was all kinds of strange stuff that went on with the cattle out there There's a lot of cattle stuff, you know? There was no cattle mutilations as far as I know in this story This weird extraterrestrial obsession with our cattle That's one that I've never heard of explanation for other than, oh, well, they're taking our cattle to learn how to breed them in their own weird farming obsession. But they're doing that with us. So why do they need our catt? Yeah. Well, one, it's their food for us certainly, and they provide milk. and food. I know what cows are for us. Yeah. Well, I'd saying for them, you might wonder, you know, I mean, there some of the dark our smashburger technology as well Yeah' smashburger I love animals but better the cows than us, even though the darker theories in the lore now or saying, you know, the Reppttilians there there was an agreement between our government and the Reptilians to take a certain amount of humans for food because they love Taste of us And you can't get us anywhere else in the universe So we're one stop shopping here I don't know what the reason is, but you know, cows with their four stomachs and their various physiology here it's unique to them perhaps It's that they're kind of universal. I mean, that's one thing. on this planet Cows are in a lot of different places. There's a lot of variety of them And you know, I'm saying it's a good baseline for livestock in general I wish human scientists would find a way to give me four stomachs Thank You're not satisfied with the l. I would like I don't think you want that. Yeah, you're regurgitating from one to the other. I don't dinner parties would be a whole lot messier and different and unpleasant. Andt NC State University, when I was a kid, they had cows that had windows in their sides that you could go into the field holyow. Well you know to the richest point here, what we're what we're seeing with this flap and we're going to get into the details of what happened and when is that this is why I like this book in this case because it is the kitchen sink, like skkinwalker, like all these things. R I think there's most every element of this experience that's going on plus A lot of stuff that could be attributed to ghosts and spirit. and other personal activities that are happening, but which begs the question, do those things overlap in ways that we don't understand? Yeah, which is a big question. I mean, everybody's asking that question right now and over and over. Yeah, they're asking it now, especially, but they're telling about this in nineteen seventy seven. That's kind of my point is that right Wow, this is you know, this has been going on, But here you have a case where most all of this is going on Even stuff like Pauline's case, Scott's going to talk about here in a second, a case of actinic junctivitis, Welder's eye And and having this thing touch her and having a physical out having a physical effect This is predating Moth man. This is predating a lot of this stuff. And so are they pulling all these other stories pulling it from this wild fantastic tale fromr nineteen seventy seven to Cr. Well, it's actually not predating I'm sorry san was six Yes Predating like widespread knowgeility and also conjunctiveivis. Okay are the Combs taking these facts from cases like the Mothman stories and others, probably not. Here's a weird thing that know I know Scott was thinking about For us probably you too Trope of the car breaking down in the presence of UFO That doesn't really happen anymore. R We don't hear about that being reported as much And also the Kleue conjunctivitis, the sort of eye injury from looking at a UFO, I feel like we heard about that way more in the seventies And now we just don't really hear about it anymore. And I don't know what's That's a real symptom of overexposure to UV light though. So that is not just a thing that you make up.' that will happen if you are Overexposed to UV light ultraviolet light Well, but I mean, are UFOs in the seventies were they emitting more U rays than they do now? Is that it? or more this, they've figured out a well we should put this filter on. muchuch like our blue blocker glasses now, which we didn't have Yeah You know, and Scott as a car guy certainly knows that Cars are far more computerized now ye than they were in the seventies. But at the same time, I mean, you know, everything in your car is electric to a certain extent Why aren't cars shutting down in the presence of UFOs In the way that it feels like that was like a classic, like everyone knew that. It's definitely happened over and over in those cases. But the other thing and I don't know, I could be wrong about this, I don't feel like you're hearing a whole lot the car chase down sequences, which there's one of those in this book, actually, where the craft chases the car down and the car dies along the way or something happens thoseose stories all seem to be older now, very few and far between where the car is chased down, you know, the Betty and Barney Hill situation, whatever. Like more and more now it seems like or in the more recent time period. It' Mundabrilla it's Right, exactly that we've covered in Australia. But what year was that? That was I can't remember now, Was that the eighties That might have been the eighties, I can't remember, but I feel like you don't hear about those as often as you used to. know, and instead it's a couple of unfortunate guys out cutting down trees or they've gone fishing or they've gone camping or whatever, and something has happened and the car isn't part of it anymore. But then to you know to force point, maybe they figured out that capturing us in cars was difficult And so they went to camping. Well, you got to you got to wonder' fishing? How much has our, you know the Mandorabila UFO wasited that was january nineteen eighty eight in Australia the Nilibore plane, but, you know, how far is our technology advanced? since the eighties even or the seventies. And but has theirter even experiencing time? Well, that's what I'm saying No, I don't I don't think so. But this series of events out plays with ebbs and flows in the timeline. But you you got to wonder like if they are interacting with us at all, obviously they're probably studying us to some degree whyy not just bypass us or just go to the cattle and not not mess with humans, but They are making breaches into the house the Combs. And it also feels very personal. You should read the book The Uninvited by Clive Heralold. And there are several books called The Uninvited. I accidentally bought one of the other one two about a house in Missouri that was haunted called the Screaming House and I was so intrigued with it, I did not send it back. So I'm gonna to there may be another that one future. Maybe that's the next episode. It's lots of fun I briefly, I wrote an opening we're like, Hey, we're welcoming back the Uninvited with Rich Haddam. It's like, no, you are invited, Rich. So we here We should I' inviting you at YST The Uninvited was my nickname in high school You know, it's been almost fifty years and tonight's story still doesn't make sense. You know, I'm talking about the c, The men in the silent silver car, which I wish we own one And the lights over the bay. you know, there's still no explanation that survives a second look. Yeah, yeah, that's right. And that's the whole reason we and our genre in general keep circling back to this story. It is, you know, but honestly, after a few weeks buried in something that makes no sense, it's kind of nice to talk about something that does. And summer' the perfect time for it. Look, the heat changes how I get dressed. I want lighter, breathable, easy to throw on, but I also want to look like I tried Quintinces is the only place I keep going back to for that. Oh yeah, same here, me too. You know, they do high quality essentials over there. thingsings like breathable linen, soft organic cotton, you know, the well made basics without the luxury markup. So everything feels good, including your wallet. Yeah, and I'm still making great use of my European linen shirt that I actually got last year. It's long sleeve, but it's so light and comfortable I'm comfortably wearing it even on the hottest and humidest days when we go out here and my wife loves the olive color It's a great way to dress up for a nice meal without being too hot in the summer Well, this season, their European linen pants and shirts are starting at just thirty four dollars. That's your warm weather upgrade right there. Yeah and as I've been telling everybody, I basically lived in their linen shirts all last summer. So this year I grabbed the tees. They're soft, you forget you got one on Plus, they're lightweight cotton sweaters when it gets a little bit chilly. perfect for those cool summer nights. That's right, when you want it look nice. And here's the part I like. Everything at Quince is priced fifty percent to eighty percent less than similar brands. 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You know, there's a wet, hot, bad magic palpable energy out there and a history of high strangeness that just kind of hangs in the air It's the perfect setting for what we're about to do. Our Patreon supporters have heard this already, but we've got some exciting news. We're officially on the lineup for the twenty twenty six wet hot Bad Magic summer camp happening september tenth through the thirteenth at the Achres in Equinunk, Pennsylvania. Yes, we were graciously invited by the powerhouse duo of Dan and Lindsey Cummins and their incredible crew from timeime suck and scared to death to their third year of this awesome summer camp It'll be a gathering of space lizards, robberts, Annabelles, and now you are listeners. A totally judgment free zone to just let your freak flag fly. But we aren't just going to hang out, do archery, and watch the Ninja wararrior course. I wonder if you can combine the archery with the Ninja Warrior. What do you mean like that event where you shoot arrows while attempting to conquer obstacles? I'm not sure that exists Well, if it did, I feel like I'd be good at it. Yeah, D didnn't you tweak your knee going up the stairs to your studio the other day? You know, not everything I tell you before we press record is for the world But Yes, I did. Okay, that's what I thought. Well, I'm sure you'll be better by then. You know, they're going to have a ton of great stuff going on at wet Hot, Bad Magic Summer Camp twenty twenty six. in addition to that stuff There's also going be speed friendnding. Oh, nice. That's what I used to call riding the subway in New York. But for the main thing we will be there to do is a live show. We're going deep into the dusty boxes of evidence in the basement of Blanket Fortiana for this one, digging down on our own past fieldwork. Yep, and we're gonna be talking about some of our most chilling personal experiences visceral off mic moments from our time at the Sally House, take a shot, or the various lockdowns I've attended, like those long dark hours inside Weverly Hills auditorium the evidence we gathered and the feelings that stuck with us Telling those stories out there in the dark surrounded by that camp atmosphere, it's going to be unsettling in the best possible way. And it's an all inclusive weekend. Dorm style cabins, meals, drinks, live bands, comedy. It's a four day three night escape. Tickets go incredibly fast for this folks, and we want to see you there. So come find us by the campfire Head over to badmagicproductions d. com or just click the link in our show notes to grab your tickets for the twenty twenty six wet hot Badmagic suummer camp We'll see you in the woods Hell, you My name is Bees. I do not have More astonishing legends, please Now back to the shop All right, so I want to bounce back to the timeline of events here. We're almost to the end of the ones that are most relevant to the book One that goes back into the haunting category that I actually forgot about earlier when we were talking about the ghost part of this, like the black figure inside the house was the fact that small items were going missing in the house, cigarettes, money, other household items were just like disappearing cllassic polter guy stuff. then Becauseuse course, you were talking about the kitchen sink. this is when we get into resurrection Maryerritory, lady in white situation. All the tropes On september tenth The sun, Kuron. O Keon, we were trying to debate how K his name, but Karein. I think it's Karein. I think it's like. Okay. He's driving a tractor on the farm and what happens is Billy is coming back and he sees Kirin over off the tractor and he's like, why isn't he Why isn' he working? Why is he on the tr? He loves the tractor. He never gets Uually I can't get him off of it, but he's off of it and he's freaked out. and he goes Billy goes up to his son and it's like, what's the matter? And Kiiran says, I was riding along and this woman And a lady in white just appeared, materialized in front of me and I didn't have time to stop. And I ran over her And he goes in I just run over her. it it was there was a he felt it likeike the tractor felt it. Yes, he felt himself driving over a body. then he gets, he stops. he gets out. There's nothing there So it's like what is that? And then probably the most bizarre thing happens on november twelfth I second most bizarre, I guess, depending how you look at things But that is when they watch they see these crafts going out towards this island that's in the St. Brad in the Bay there called Stack Rocks, which you can see on Google Earth. There's a couple of different places called Stack Rocks. I found this out during research But this is the one connected to this particular area If you find Broad Haven, it's right off the coast there, which is like these rock columns, you know, think about Avatar, but it's only one or two of them instead of a thousand. but like So they're out there in the water And they're chasing the craft. They see a craft go down. the family, the whole family and they're like, are we Billy or one of them just like, I'm going to go see what's going on. And they're like, you're not going. We're all going. And it's there's a funny moment in the book where it's like they where they apparently they all look at each other and there's like, there's no way anyone is staying home. We're all going to go try to see where this thing went. So they go out and they and they go towards the cliff. and if you look at the geraphy of the area, they go we like we saw it go down near Stack Rocks We to go out there And They get out there and're like, oh, we don't really see anything and then they're like, wait a minute And they're looking at it and this is offshore and it's far enough away that they can't make out any detail, but they see these white humanoid figures basically floating around off the surface of this essentially what is a skyscraper of rock, what looks like a natural formation Now the way Clive presents it in the book, he's like, this island's really weird. The water iss always calm around it even when it's churning everywhere else. And like kind of Painting a stage is like maybe it's not really an island or whatever or it has some kind of spiritual thing to it. But either way, What they witness is two little figures going up and down and then going in and out of some kind of portal type doorway that's black inside, which again takes me right back to Skinwalker Ranch and the tube that the hairy thing crawled out of. So it's like What is happening? and is that aate? And by the way, that's still there. So we need to get out there and go knock on the door, I guess. But like Stack Rocks is not going anywhere whichich then begs the question is's like, why't you just put a portal anywhere and like, why is it out here and offshore? And But they saw these fig, but humans aren't likely to go climbing on it. It's treacherous. Yeah, you can't they can't quite get there. So we can go around here and steal all the blue footed booby eggs we want and no one's going to bother us But then the interesting thing is that another eyewitness reported seeing something very similar in the distance. it might have been It was Ros Sbody was Ros Hotel, right? Yes. Yeah Because her hotel overlooked that. That building is still there. It's not I think it's not a hotel now. I think it's a you can rent it, maybe or whatever. but So She said that she saw something out there too. So it's like they've got this base out there. they're coming back and forth. Also that's probably not far from where the Sosis array is for which I only know about from the hunt for Red October. that's how you figure out where submarines are going by for your enemy country or whatever. So there is a lot of military technology here that maybe aliens would be interested in. Clive puts forth in the book this idea that they're like the perfect microcosm to study. They got this farm, they got the livestock, like Fst said earlier. They're all different ages and they have land and they're in this spot. and, you know, we can kill two birds once and we go down here and see what's going on with all this military tech and we can study these humans and their cows, which we love to mutilate in Colorado, but here we're just gonna move them around because then that's the other part of this is that Billy And it's hard to convey all the different times that this happened, but the cows, a hundred head of cattle would just disappear in minutes and be at a farm down the road, that it would take him a half hour or an hour to round them up and bring them back. And in some cases, hed bring them back in five minutes later, the other farmers calling and saying they're back That happened to him. It sounded like multiple times. I didn't count how many times in the book, but it was inexplicable. And this again happened at Skinwalker Ranch, cattle that were locked in pinens turned up in a trailer or they were out in a field and then they were locked into a trailer and jammed in and in a trance of some kind. Yeah, that was like fascinating part of that is that the story that Terry Sherbin tells is that, you know, his three prize bowls go missing canan't find them anywhere. They were just there. They just saw them. now they're missing. And he looked everywhere and the last place he looked like, well, they might be in that old cattle carrier That hasn't been used for years In fact, the handle is rusted, wired shut. There's here's the thing the little detail biling wire and there' it's full of cobwebs So nobody just rewired it They said, Well, that last place we look. So they cut it open. they cut the wire, they open it up, the bowles are in there. Three bs are in there shouldoulder to shoulder And they look like they're asleep. They're just kind of in a trance and then He said o well, thank goodness, they're here because yeah, they're like what two, three thousand apiece They wake them up to get them out and that's where they just go bananas and they kick the crap out of the trailer, he said And so there's a portation going on of lots of beef, lots of There're just thousands of pounds of meat instantaneous things about steake. Yeah, Well that's part of. Im like again, I'm just glad people aren't involved in that and then apparently these aren't there's some other species of alien and they're not the Reptilians who like to feast on us. So ye there's that point of that they're doing this at will, but what point I think not just Oh let me quickly ask you this before you continue on with the timeline. Did you ever come across an element of the tricksterism Kind of thing that we saw at S skinwalker. Well, yeah, in my opinion, I'd made a note that even said trickster Is like to me, it did feel very trickstery specifically with the cattle, spepecifically with the cattle because it's like, over here, It's like that commercial that made me laugh. I don't remember what he with the guy and the waiters and he has the pole with the dollar on it. And he's like, you're not gonna to get it. That's what's happening here. It's like got cows back? No, you don't. Did you get the cows back? No. Are they which farm they arere they at Martin's farm? Yeah. Now they're at Dale's farmight You know, and it's like, you gott to go get them and you're bring them back and it did seem very much like they were screwing with the Coombs family and Billy specifically, it seemed pointed and personal. And that is just like what is that? which of course You know, that comes back because the other thing about the missing cigarettes and the things around the house is like it's It's weird, it's annoying, it's anomalous, but it's also maybe not that big a deal. You can live with it, work around it, whatever. But this is a much, this is their livelihood and it's more unexplainable. That said, and Rich, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I can tell, there's not a ton of corroboration about the cattle incidents. likeike the only thing I know about the other farmers where the cattle would have been turning up is in the book I could not find them on the record anywhere else saying, oh, yeah, this happened. Those cows were kept appearing on my farm. On the other hand I could also see those farmers where the cows were winding up, not wanting to talk to anybody about it. So it's like I'm not sure how solid that particular chain of events is. and it is one of the most fantastical ones. Yeah, I haven't done any background checking on these events. So whether if anyone else at a neighboring farm went on the record and said, yes, I was on the receiving end of all this cattle showing up in my form.ight don't I' not heard. I want to keep looking for that. listeners, if you find that out there, send that to us and be interested. Wed do a little follow up on it. There were a couple of more significant events in the Combs timeline that the Stack Rcks thing was a big deal. and that's also the the by the way, the cattle started disappearing after Kirin ran over the ghost Yeah that disappeared, the lady and White. So that's when the cows started teleporting all over the place. Now, the next thing that happens near the end and this is November. Nowind you, this's been almost an entire year now since things started Pauleen has some kind of weird waking dream where she's on a bench that's like formed into a wall, the bench, and It's in a domed room and there's two identical women in there. and I think some other people that she thought looked familiar, but wasn't sure who they were And then she just is kind of back home in bed lying next to Billy. And she so she doesn't know what that was But in the end, she later concludes about a month later, they see this huge orange globe whole family and they go over, it's hovering over the cow sheds and it's swaying like a pendulum, the whole house sees it And as they're approaching it Pauline is very calm. She's got a very calm sense. She's like, there's nothing to worry about anymore. She's like, this is all going to be fine Everything is cool, donon't worry about it. This is it. And they're like, this is it. And they're like, this is it. And then that thing shoots up into the sky. It's gone and nothing else happens after that. Yeah So there's this suggestion, it's not overtly stated. There's a suggestion that she was given a sense of calm or like because there was a whole thing about, I guess they do say this, We're not here to harm you, don't be scared, but not verbally. it was just like a feeling she got, right? And then She seemed to know that it was about to be over in December of ' seventy seven. Yeah, the way she felt on what can only be understood as an abduction you know, suddenly she finds herself in a circular room. I mean, right rightight there we're like, okay, we're we're in abduction town. Which typically is a terrifying experience as it is described usually by the people Unless you're Truan Bam, which he also was in the room with the benches that came that were part of the wall which struck me as a yeahu similarity. Yeah. And in her case, she overtly was made to feel There's nothing to worry about. you're okay. You don't need to worry, which is totally new. I mean, these people have been freaked out for a year. No one has felt okay about anything Yeah And during what is arguably one of the more terrifying things, she feels, oh No, there's no reason to be afraid for whatever reason and that Like you said, Scott feels like it informs the visit of the Orb later. where her demeanor is suddenly shared by the rest of the family, I guess, and it's sort of like They're staring up in wonder and awe at this thing and they're not scared and the thing leaves. And that's the end of that. Right. So again, in terms of literary devices and writing and the dramatization of their story, I will just say that for me, that felt particularly pat, as they say in cards. Like it was sort of too perfect of an ending It's like there's nothing to see here. It went away. It's a happy Joyland. Everything is fine Nothing to see move along. To me, it felt a little bit like they were going to the end of the book and whether it was still going on or not, they were going to say that it wasn't because they wanted to be done talking about it. Yeah, it does have a feeling of, you know, a bow gets sort of put on it and and the story's over. Yeah, Yeah. But another thing that that happens though in the book is that, which I thought was interesting and it did, like Forrest said, rememinded me of the Mothman prophecies There were a lot of points throughout the book where people were like This thing happened and this thing happened and what is it all leading to Right They kept asking that question Like what does it mean? What is this it must be signaling that something is going to happen, which I find really interesting that Obviously there was a feeling of Scary thing happens, anotherother scary thing happens, Is another scary thing going to happen But then there's an that's different than I feel like these are warnings or prophecies or Yeah it's leading up to a big event, which in this book, a big event really doesn't happen a change in feeling happens. But there's no collapse of the Silver Bridge, for instance. Right, Right. By the way, here's what's interesting about Clive Harold too and looking him up, he passed away, I think in two thousand two He had been a respected journalist and an author, and he got called and basically assigned to this story. He later in life, I guess, was having a lot of issues with alcoholism and general destitution. and he was homeless. And I think living at a train station in London or something like that, And at some point, King Charles, who was still Prince Charles at that point, was asked to come and visit him because they had gone to the same prep school when they were kids. And so they were eight or ten years old and they were at the same prep school. And I guess Charles told him, according to this one vog entry we have. We'll share the link to that. told him, you know, no, I don't remember you, to be honest, but we were eight or ten or whatever, but they did both go to that school and he had a nice meeting with him And then about four or five years after that, that was ninety seven, I think, if I remember correctly, Clive passed away at a very young age, like fifty two somethinghing like that. whichich is so interesting to me, just his story and how that played out in his crossover with the current King of England. But I said this earlier in the show, but for me The thing that keeps me from really putting this in a little bit of a possibly I can't prove this as anything other than fiction category is the whole Broadhaven School event because not only is that a prominent event that's been talked about and researched and investigated by literally dozens of people and reported on for decades We had one of those eyewitnesses on the show This was just up the street and just what I think it was a couple of weeks later that we were talking about So I think for me when I hear what David Davis said about what he saw, when he was ten years old at the Broadhaven schoolchool That tells me Because I believe him and I believe what he said. That tells me that something definitely happened here. And so no matter how it might have been packaged by a writer who was tasked to write a book that could capitalize on the release of close encounters in the UFO what that did to the UFO movement at large. No matter what, it still feels to me like there's definitely a story at the root of this. Now all those extra details that are so far out about the cows and the black figure inside and the the things going missing in the house and the lady in white, that it's all ghostly and paranormal for me those disparate things make the story more believable because it seems to me that when we cross into the stories that are the most fantastic, They're not falling into a narrative structure and that in a way is a telltale sign that something real is happening, att least that's how I take it personally from all the years of doing the show And with that, I wanted to play of David Davis talking about what he saw just a few weeks later and just a few miles away from where what happened to the Combs happened Let's talk about the event itself. You know, if you're willing to recount it to us, I know you've probably done it many, many times, but I was wondering if maybe you could tell us a little bit about the location and the school and that day in February of nineteen seventy seven. Well the school is in Broadhaven on the west coast of Wales whal school, we about home time U Ebody knew each other, very close family atmosphere at the school. it was definitely out of the ordinary happen then normal day, but throughout the day coming in from break times and saying that they'd seen a flying saucer or strange flying around the school perimeter. Now, I'm a natural born skeptic. I didn't believe a single word. that anyone was saying For me flying saources were purely in the realm of old. right movies So at the end of the day, I decided to have a look in the vicinity of the area they were talking about and went to the perimeter of the sk and couldn't actually see anything. so I thought I'd make my way into the sort of field where they'd seen the object Thats I was crosseding the fence behind some trees Gh shaped object be about forty five feet long seem to have a peescent finish to it I mean, the fight had only lasted for a matter of maybe five or six seconds of ten before it disappeared down behind some trees again Now One thing I've always found strange about the sight in was No time was I frightened at all? There was no fear in me whatsoever However urge to run away as if there was suggestion going on that I still can't explain to this day Would you call that like a fight or flight reaction that you think was related to the incident itself or maybe just instinct? I don't think it was instinct It seem like my reaction to run away. There is no fear My only emotion really was of No to run away from where I was at the time. Can you tell me a little bit about the dimensions of it? How long was it? How tall was it, you know relative to the trees that you saw? What was its size fe long. I equated it to about the size of a ' cigar shape. was one that covered the vehicle. I don't talk that ro pulsite in light, which didn't stand out like a light on top of a police car or an ambulance Gow seem to come from the top of the dome itself rather than a light outstanding Can you tell me again what the craft was doing when you first saw it? It was already landed or you saw it in motion? It was obviously obstructed by some trees that were about maybe about two hundred, three hundred yards away from the school itself.. As I was trying to climb over the fence it actually appeared hind the trees rose up counterpay and There was a slight movement, no sounds, but there was a movement Wow and then it's simply just behind the trees again. Interesting. So yeah, you saw it go up and go back down, though. Ohes absolutely. Right. This gets a little out there, but I'm sure you've been asked some out there questions in the course of your life. But I mean, do you feel like that desire to run away may have been some kind of warning or telepathic message in your mind that came from the craft I'm willing to entertain I'm It was just an ge that really wasn't mine Interesting. What about noise? Did it make any noise? No, There was noise at all. However, there was a little bit of wind at the time. The weather conditions weren't brilliant. Certainly no noticeable noise. And again, how far away is this? how distant from you? This would possibly be Okay, not, so not really that far. No, o. o. It was about the length of a field that was adjacent to the school itself. And you did not see any kind of occupant of the craft? No, none at all. How many people were with you at this time? I was actually on my own. It was purely come to the area to disprove what the other kids were saying at the time. I had no I had no idea that I would even be seeing an object like that. Your thing was they had all come back. They said, this is what we saw And you're like, yeah, right. And so you go out there. R. And you were skeptical, even at that age. Absolutely. like I said you in my reality at all until that day. Wow. Okay. So you would say when you were younger, you weren't obsessed with science fiction or anything like that? No, absolutely not. to be quite truthful. I mean I do love sci fi, but my main love of sci fi tends to be with dystopian scenarios, etceta, like that We' never a big thing with meal alien invasions or anything like that. Right, right. So that was maybe too far out for you. So how long were you out there? okay, you saw it go up and go back down? That's everything you saw it do come out above the trees and go back. That's basically it yeah. So what was your inclination then, you return back to the school and say, Yep, it's out there or like what happened next? I was in an excited state. However, this was at the end of the school day and we had a regular school taxi that G couldn't know. When I got home that was it And she asked me what was wrong. And I said, you know You're not going to believe this, but sort of UFO U My mother was the sort of person she could spot me lying a mile off. sure. But She realized immediately that what I was saying was we had in fact seen something No Unbeknown to me, my mother at the time knew a gentleman by the name of Randall Jones Pugh, who was a local veterinary surgeon in the area The other thing that he did was he worked for an organisation called Bufora. which is the British Unidentified Flying Object Research Association much different ays as a research organisation, but at the time they were quite prolific. So she gave him a phone call came down spoke to me, then together we went back down to the site where We had'd seen the object Unfortunately, by that time the weather had deteriorated even more it had got dark And because of the boggy surroundings of the field, we couldn't actually make it to the location from that that is basically what Media circus envelop the site end So what happened when you say the media circus, how long did that take to unfold and what exactly happened? the media circus started quite rapidly. on the Friday Basically we have the whole weekend and by the Monday morning We were already getting a few new contacts from reporters By the end of the week they had to take the phone off the hook We're getting reporters phoneing up from all over the world, TV crews wanting to come down and do interviews. It went silly. It really. Let me ask you this then. canan you tell me a little bit about headadmaster Luellen and the drawings and how that all unfolded? That happened the same that afternoon, wereere you part of that? or because you had said you went home pretty close to after the sighting? How did that all play out with the drawings llow in and be wom in.. Like I said, we had the weekend, but you've got to appreciate that this was nineteen seventy seven Pembrokshire We had a lamsy weekend. It was terrible weather you know, we didn't have mobile phones, we didn't have entteret sure. The only access to phones we had were the house phones and these were in the days where use the house phone, your parents were going to be listening to every word you said. Right. So the Monday morning we went into school and Ralph Lwellin had obviously been alerted to the situation of what had happened And he basically spits us all up and put us all in exam condition uh, and ask to write a small report of what happened accompanied by a picture There is no collusion between the children and I mean, if you've seen the pictures, you will appreciate the were all pretty much the same. Yeah. When you say he put you guys in exam conditions, what is that like? Is was it a strict regimen? That was basically splitting us up on separate tables within the classroom so that we couldn't copy off each other oated by about three or four feet each of us And it was done with him watching over us as we did it so that there was no collusion Okay. W he a strict headmaster air He was a very old fashioned headmaster, very down to earth, but I still look back on him with a lot of affection Right, so he was good. He kept the rules, but you enjoyed learning from him.. UFOs were completely outside of his world as well And I don't think he ever believed in UFO's as such after us, but what he actually believed was that we had seen something out of the ordinary that he couldn't possibly explain and he supported us all the way. Fascinating. Yes, his reaction to the finished drawings and everything You felt like that was one that convinced him that something had actually happened Oh yes, absolutely. He changed He was trying to make a joke of it until he did that with us and his demeanor changed completely It was no longer something to ridicule. What were the ages of all the students where you guys mixed ages Uh no we will between ten and eleven. Okay. So then I guess with the ensuing media circus, as you said I mean, I know now the drawings are all over the internet. everyverybody is has seen them did they get into the media pretty much immediately? Is that something that happened down the road? Oh yeah, pretty much sure. I mean, um, newspaper featured to obviously took some pictures of our illustrations and put them in the local paper and from there on it just went around the globe Wow, do you think that u Ralph Lell and became a believer after that or how do you think he reconciled it after you guys went through that experience All I can ever say about Ralph Lllen is that he did appreciate that we did see something However, I don't think he would have ever said he was a believer in UFO's, but he certainly did appreciate that we've seen something Astonishing Legends is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy. Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save money when you bundle your home and auto policies. The process only takes minutes, and it could mean hundreds more in your pocket Visit progressive. com after this episode to see if you could save. Progressive casualty insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states The stage is set and the drivers are ready as NASCAR returns to TNT for an unforgettable summer This week, the NASCAR summer series rolls into the Windy City for the Eero four hundred, as the stars of the Cup series make their return to Chicagoand Speedway for the first time since twenty nineteen Former winners Alex Bowman and Denny Hamlin know what it takes to conquer this track, but they'll face a stacked field including Chase Elliott, Ty Gibbs, and Buba Wallace. And the stakes just got bigger. The Eo four hundred marks the second race of this year's in season challenge, where every pass, every pit stop, and every lap bring drivers one step closer to a one million dollar prize Add in pride, points and playoff positioning, and you've got all the ingredients for an unforgettable afternoon of racing. Don't miss NASCAR's return to Chicagoand Speedway. 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Now let's get back to the show Well, another part of this story that are combined. again, I love the whole flap idea because I don't know about you folks, but I wish that a flap would happen that I was able to experience without, of course, all the negative physical effects because I don't need any more than the ones I'm experiencing already So the idea though is that there's a big happening going on Yeah I get the feeling, you know, look, we How apropo I'm sensing as a lot of us are that somethingomething significant is on the horizon I'm not going to say full disclosure, but I think It seems like we're getting prerep for that somethingomet And if you if you listen to the scuttle but like this is the year of you don't got to meet the aliens or whatever Or as a Neil degrras Tyson says, like, just grab an ash tray if you get abducted. L brring something back that I can look at. We're not there yet, but I think it's the idea that being is being broached. It's my understanding that he's recently changed his tool that's of the cliffs, but I've seen little things that said he's now he's Mister Pro alien. Well, I mean, the thing is look, I've seen those clips and the thing is like the book somebody pointed out, it's like if you look at his book, it is still tongue in cheek about that. It's just like, well, if this was true then what about this and this and that? And so Look, he' he's mainstream. you know, he's a science educator for the masses You know, I find them entertaining and informative But the idea is that he's approaching it he's not gone full bananas as some would say like just, oh, yeah I been I knew it all along. now I'm just going to tell everybody, I'm on board with all this. Well you can't do that, I think, but career anyway. So but he's more warming up to okay, I'll entertain what if You know, again, he's a scientist. He wants to see physical proof as everybody who is now tired of hearing about disclosure. It's like just show me the thing Show me the ghost in the jar, the Bigfoot in the cage, the UFO in the warehouse thirteen or a hangar eighteen. Right You, showh me the thing. Just don't show me pictures Grainy from a gun camera I want to see the thing. And it's like and I I can understand that. I do too The thing is we're being eased into it. Now I just what did I see like a kitcat commercial and there's a UFO pulling up a kitcat bar. It has been everywhere And what I would say is stories like this that are going to resurface and I think should be revisited. And I'm so glad that this was documented. reggardless of what you feel about the book. I found it to be a very enjoyable read It's it's enjoyable. And so it is fun It's very cinematic. It is very cinematic and it's weird. It would make a great movie. Yeah, exactly. It's weird. It's wild. It's got it all Unlike, you know, all these other films that I see that you could tell like a Rich could inform us on this. It looks like a screenwriter or as David Litch said, it's just, you know, it's just notes from a director's notebook hashed together. and look, I'm under contract to get two more screenplays done this year. So here you go. It's just like a bunch of stuff tied together with some points that are real but a bunch of mishmash in between hereere it's like it's pretty compelling. So what we the clip we just heard is that seems pretty forthright and emotional and you know, again, as far as we can believe any of the stuff It seems like this person did experience something strange and is doing their best to relay exactly what they experienced. And so I'll give them that credit But overall, you know, what we're hearing is that You know, this is an idea that could break the world and you don't just jump into the deep end on this. You got to stick a toe in first and that's what's happening now So when we visit stories like this, it's like, well, this is a lot, okay? So You're saying like nothing major or it's leading up to something major and everybody's wondering like, okay, is this coming to an invasion? Well, well no That's not seemingly the way these things work if you have a desired effect not to screw everything up in the world and how we do everything. It's like You know, that's going to put the brakes on something and it's going to be a huge hiccup So what you do is that you stick that toe in and maybe that's what visitors. these uninvited were doing is just a little u a little sampling here, sticking the thermometer and any way that they could and seeing like, okay, what's happening here? We're going to take some samples. The other thing is that's one report is that the two beings and I think it was the annt. Tina there's there's Gran Granny. and the sister of Pauline Tina, who said, I think it was them who saw the two beings come out againgain, always tall and skinny. That's their thing And their morphology it looks like they were taking samples of the ground. It's like they're kind of looking around like, Oh, interesting. kind interesting. That's right. the sister saw. And then the craft took off and it dropped around dropped a red box. What happened to that thing that they couldn't find They went looking for it, but couldn't find. No, but they figured that one out. They actually, they did find the red box and when they open it up inside it was the Betf. See Oh the bga. Yeah. seeee the becausecause the bestphere had there's no instructions on it. The Bgasphere does have designs and instructions written on it, which I appreciate for ease of use But the idea is that you're testing each other out It's like we're getting this from our experience. They're getting a novel experience of their own, perhaps, of who we are. We land in this field. I think I just stepped in something. Boy does that stink? You know, scrape your shoes off before you get back into the UFO It's a new world for them, perhaps, or maybe they've been here all along. but it seems like There are different levels and experiences of other uninvited visitors that they're coming here and obviously they don't need an invitation. They're just doing it You know, what I would say like with would Dave Davis is that these things are lining up. and so It's all very compelling in a certain way. and it felt like everybody experiencing it was saying, this is leading to something big. Well It starts off with the individual, I think. and that's what's happening now with the UFO experience and belief in it is that we don't have group universal worldwide belieelf or like here it is. we just dumped everything in your lap. Have a great weekend We'll see you on Monday and see what you think where then you don't sleep all weekend. It's small experiences by individuals all kind of coming together. in a measured way And here you have something that just if one of these things happened, purortedly happened in the book to any of us here Especially us three right now. If I said, Scott, I woke up and there was a disembodied silvery hand that came floating through the door and it touched me on the arm and now I can't type. so we got to push the show another week. Right That's pretty major That would be the biggest story or thing that ever happened to me in my life and hopefully that would be it And I'm sure, you know, I would hope you would believe me, but like, okay, that's pretty major. But it didn't lead to anything global or weird. It's just like, that's the biggest thing happened to me. and it's freaking me out. but it's very interesting. And as Scott always says, and I think it was his grandmother, I would dine out on that story for the rest of my life after every talked about it, guess what? You see this you see these fingerprints on my arm? I didn't just get them. That's when an alien hand touched me in my sleep and for jokes to follow and people rolling their eyes. And so I get that, but like all this this is a major, major event, much like it is it would be for the family that experienced the conjuring You know, these things happen. You move to another house, you move on And that's a chapter literally in a book for these folks and hopefully one you can close the book when you need to, but like it happened, you know, something happened to them And it's very profound, but it happened to them so nobody else can really feel like could experience that. because they didn't go through it and Or it's like the Polish Pouter guys girl what terrible, you know set of years they experienced with No real aliens. It might be just a paranormal like I said, a natural event where there's a telekinesis. But it ruined her apartment for years and everywhere she went It was horrible, but also the most astounding, remarkable thing ever Anyway, so that's I've got a few other thoughts, but like this is I think with hearing these accounts, if you knew were good friends with Dave Davis, like, what do you do with that? What do you do if you live next door to the Combs Or if I told you this just happened to me and I have a like, come look at the burnt patch of grass in my backyard There's a certain amount of of nothing you can do. L you show up and it's sort of it's sort of like Rob's story of seeing the UFO or In that documentary about the people who see the man who sees UFOs or what when the two people are sitting on the beach wall and he's like, lookook at that UFO out there and they're like on a date and having ice cream cones and they' like, Ohh yeah, and I just think about that cream. Yeah. What can you do though? It's X thousand feet away. It's not I can't control it. Like all you can kind of do is look at it. You don't know what it is. You know, you've still got your mortgages due in the morning or your rent or whatever. It's like they When does it become this thing you have to act on? Now the one last thing I want to touch on and I'm like pretty much done here with like the stuff from the story, but is the fact that Randall Jones Pgh, who predicted the flap, he's the one that wrote the Defed ennigma. pell DY FED predicted a lot of this stuff that came along here. He is one of the original guys that turned the trickster component of this into the idea of all of these things being demonic and devil related. And is as a result, drew from ephology in the early eighties. And this is a theme we still hear today going on within the walls of the Pentagon. if you read Skinwalkers at the Pentagon, that book talks about hitchhikers, not the kind that are on the side of the road, but the kind that follow you home. You go to Skinwalker Ranch, you get home and not only do you have problems, but so do your neighbors that can even go with you. A lot of that stuff and then the bad things that happen when an orb passes through your body, not good either So if you see orbs, that's great, observe, but do not try to intersect the orb. That's the thing I would say, do not taunt, happappy funun Ball. But those are the things that you have to watch out for. But like for me in this case, my closing thought about it, it's like a very fascinating case. I wish the book was written a little more clinically and I wish I could find more corroboration on some of the most fantastical points about it But also when you listen to David Davis, I do believe something happened in this area for sure. So it's hard for me to discount what the Coombs family is saying, even if it's coming to us through this narrative, you know, this carefully crafted narrative structure So as a result, I believe something went down. I do think it's entirely possible that it's lots of parts of it are very different from how they' portrayed, but I think they're probably still equally disconcerting and it's hard to figure out what's going on there. and it does fit into a lot of O cases that we've heard since then, there's a lot of common ground with some of the weirdness. So that's where I'm at with it. I think people should read the book And it's not really a well known book. It's not like everyone read this book and it influenced a million other things. I do think about the kids though, because those kids are about our age. Yeah. where are those kids and are they listening? It's like Clive said at the end of the book, you know, God rest hisou, but he was like They did a good job of disappearing. Actually no, there was the person Sorry, it was the article about what happened to Clebe and him passing away and being connected with King Charles. That guy was like, seemed like he had found them or knew where they were because his last sentences were just like, oh, yeah, they', they did a very good job of getting out of the limeline Yeah. And I'll leave it at that. It's basically what that person said in that article. There's a lot of tragedy also that follows these stories, which is the heartbreaking part, but also makes it very real and human There are some novel things about It's like I say, novel. It's not a novel But the way that it was portrayed, like I said, it's very readable I would say as far as the truthiness of it, the emotional aspects, of course It's like your friends retelling a story And sometimes they even do it in front of you like the like Like I had this friend who also was a writer, but he would be telling some coworker about how I felt That's some incident he and I were at. He's like Well, fororece are totally scared. And it's like, no, no, no, come on. It's like I could tell those riderly chops were coming out. It's like, no, no, no, dude, that's not how I felt But he thought it made the story more interesting. So he embellished like how I was feeling even in front of me. But you know, look, those parts, you don't exactly know how they reacted. and that might be some literary license But I think the bullet points, like I said, if he interviewed them and wrote down pretty much exactly, it's like what did you see on the night of February so and so when you looked out the window? Well, I saw this. It was about seven feet tall. It had like a black screen in front of its face. The things that were reported, I'm gonna go with them being accurately reported to The author Clyde And so if you take that, it's a bunch of weird stuff. Yes no less weird and all the weird crap we've been hearing about since we've been doing the show the Grove incident. in the tree with just all the different robots and creatures and beings and they're also different things that make this story Oh, the battle of Cisco Grove Cisco Grove. Yes. Yes. Also Sam the Sandown Clown. Also Oh, I thought about that too. Remember there's one description of a tall be a Rano box. Oh yes, a box in front of his mouth R Yeah likeike to breathe or to or to transcribe or like a translator with a tube going to its back and an antenna on the shoulder. I believe it was the nephew Pauline's nephew that saw this thing. It has an aerial very very analog this t like a steam bl You don knowt no. Yeahah, but that's how like I said, is that it's often wondered in the book too, is this some form that we're more likely to be able to interpret visually Are they taking this form? And then you see other ghostly kind of things with The sun. I think it was the eldest sonon L yeah, when he took the tractor back to the house and he was freaked out and wouldn't go inside and Billy, the dad says, what's wrong? And he says, I see this amorphous black shadowy thing inside the living room when the doors were all locked and no one else was in the house It's like that's pontiffract. And then you have disembodied hands like Pontiffract. There's a huge spiritual element going on here as well or things somethingomething that we term is usually just spiritual But is that connected? And where does it overlap? And how much connection is going on This story evokes all of that and a lot of interesting thoughts. and So then you wonder like, what's all this weirdness here? But details in the story are novel in the fact that for that time, I would say that they're pretty sophisticated in just the range of weirdness and interactions and now after ten years of being in the genre. It's like, no that that kind of tracks now If it was a modern story, like I said, it just came out last year. It's like, oh, by the way, you know, this happened at our farm thirty years ago, but I'm now telling the story. It's like, okay, then you wonder This guy probably just maybe read a lot of these books and he's cherry picking the best Freaky concepts that have been calledulled from all this research and experiencecer testimonies and At this time, in ' seventy seven, it seems less likely to me. because these are they're so weird and wild because usually I remember growing up in the seventies and it was just like, I saw this Silvery saucer with a dome on top. How classic is that The only thing more class could be like a plexiglass bubble with a little green guy with an antenna sticking out his head piloting the thing. Right. But the overall shape of this thing changes but essentially stays the same cigar shappeed from the side, Sucery, silvery Dome shaped lights around the side A ramp coming down. All these things from Broad Haven even to Aerial school to our case here It's generally consistent So that's an interesting aspect to me as far as consistent with cartoon UFO's and Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, because when she had the Zone dream and we didn't mention that, but she was like, I could look down this ramp and I saw my driveway or whatever It's like, okay, so this thing is coming down. It's got a ramp You know, and Marvin the Martian' going to march you back down to your house. But the other thing that's consistent is that This thing doesn't they don't seem to need to be able to walk on the ground Yeah because the arms are stiff. They're always describes, the arms are straight down. Well, when a bipedal being walks, what aidge in locomotion is the swinging of the arms And you don't need that. you know, why walk when you can float, right So this thing's coming down, although it does make a foot imprint here and there And that seems like skkinwalker wrench kind of stuff too, is that these things are kind of gliding around Also with the Paskagoula case thingsings robotic, weird Michelen floating down So they have that technology, but they also need a ramp just is It's like every U haul trailer just helps. okay U and you have these things that are kind of consistent through all the tellings of the story That makes it compelling And there are some as far as like the spiritual thing, we've heard about this as well. likeike where do you hear about somebody being touched and being physically affected? Well, Greay Friars somebody being touched on the skin and like that that part always being a different color of your melanin and it never tans What's that about? But here I wonder if the touch and the interaction and the negative physical effects are inadvertent in that you have a curious being The other thing is that they're interdimensal. so a hand is only manifesting, a silvery hand comes out that the daughter sees touches the mother, Pauline on the arm And then her arm is dead. Yeah, I didn't break that one. I forgot about that one. Yeah. her arm is dead for at least a week and a half or so Is that like, oh, I'm sorry I didn't mean to hurt you. I just I was curious what you felt like. So I touched your arm while I was in this Nebulous state and Sorry, I gave you a dead arm. Also pink eye. Sorry sorry about that. I should have washed my hands. But the idea is that you have all these effects that we hear about later and throughout that are consistent with other stories going on And so the curious thing to me, one of the biggest questions The overall picture of the grand Unified theory of the paranormal is is there a spiritual aspect of it or something that we term or identify or relate to as spiritual And I' talkking about ghosts ethereal beings Gods with a small G this and that is demons even, angels. What's going on here? Is there some Mishmash, arere we misidentifying something or are we identifying it absolutely correctly? but it's so out there. We can't put the pieces together We don't know what to make of it, but is it the origin story for our origin story? Well, that's the other big, Right. That's the other big thing And so what's going on here, but like I said, is that I guess very simply is some of what we think are ghosts actually extraterrestrial or utraterrestrial inter dimensional visitors that are uninvited or all over. Well those the conversations. Yeah us for five hundred thousand years in the future. That's the us just after we die, we become aliens and then we come back as ghosts. Maybe it's all You're in another realm. Obviously here's the techy ways that you could do is that your You go there are other reales. world Yeah You gott to get permission to use that clip. I don't care if you have to pay universal young to pay five hundred dollars's just wondering what we're talking about. But that's the idea is that there are other realms. It's like that's always when I was a little kid, I thought that seem likely impossible when I heard about that. It's like, well why not? And these are this is so shocking to folks that only deal with the one realm which is Mother Nature and the moist rich earth under your feet and in your hands in the cows and the trees and the sea, it's so idyllic And then you have an invasion of uninvited otherwiness and it just flips your world upside down But that is also part of a spirituality of sorts and that you have to consider other realms powers and forces and states of being that are greater or just different than us. That is part of spirituality So this story forces you to think about all of that And that's why I like it so much. It is funny how we read books and then it's like, well This is a detail I've heard a lot before, therefore it fits a pattern, therefore I believe it. And then the outlier stuff werere like, well, that I don't quite believe. I wish that wasn't in it because that doesn't fit into the sort of grand picture that I've already designed inside my mind based on, you know, decades of reading these kinds of books. When you're reading this book and it's from fifty years ago, almost exactly. I think you're surprised at how many connections it has to stories you hear. for skkinwalker ranch and things like that. you're like, oh, this is all kind of making sense because you do Instinctually wanted to make sense. People believe it's all leading up to something. peopleeople like us hosting this show and listening to this show You know, we're getting caught up in the disclosure excitement because it fits into a personal narrative of cognitive closure that it all must mean something And it must be leading up to something, but peopleeople who haveve been talking about disclosure have been talking about it for decades that there's a lot of you know, talk among politicians You know, look, if the aliens want to disclose, they'll disclose