Writing Habits and Future Projects

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And that was updated and reissued five times since, most recently in twenty fourteen, as the new biographical Dictionary of film in which he profiles hundreds of key figures from across film history, offering not just facts but also opinions that are often contrarian and always thought provoking. T the extent that the book was selected in a twenty twenty three survey of film industry heavyweights, conducted by the Hollywood Reporter. as one of the one hundred greatest film books of all time. And in a twenty ten poll of critics and writers conducted by Sight and Sound as the single best film book of all time A man whose latest book, A Sudden Flicker of Light or Revisionist History of moovies will be published by Simon and Schuster on july seventh Thompson. Thompson has been described by the Los Angeles Times as Cinema's doctor Johnson without doubt the greatest living film historian, archivist, and professional fans Among contemporary film writers, are greatest stylists, with a voice that is arch, witty, playful, and surprising By the New York Times, as, among the most ardent cineophiles of the past half century, not many people have thought as deeply or as passionately about movies Sometimes his books deliver greater pleasure than the multiplex itself. by the Atlantic Monthly, as probably the greatest living film critic and historian writer of The most fun and enthralling proros aboutout the movies Since Pauling Kale. by author Michael andndache as the best writer on film in our time, our most argumentative and trustworthy historian of the screen and by author Sam Giuliano as the most erudite and addictive writer on film in history Kale Kaufman, Rosenbaum, AG, Saris, Houston, Powell, you name it. Thompson eclipses them all He's confrontational, opinionated, forthright, and yet also welcoming, or unput downable, as Gilbert Adair put it You may want to throw the book at the wall from time to time, but you'll always go back to pick it up As for the biographical dictionary, it has been described by the New York Times as monumental, indispensable, marvelously idiosyncratic By the Los Angeles Times as everyone's favorite movie Cat cheat by author Scott Ayman in the Observer as never less than interesting, frequently irritating, occasionally maddening, and one of perhaps half a dozen indispensable books about the movies and by author Jeff Dyer as not only an indispensable book about cinema, but one of the most absurdly ambitious literary achievements of our time Over the course of the conversation via Zoom, the eighty five year old and I discussed how a childhood stammer led him to a fascination with language and an urge to speak out Now he wound up being asked to write a book for the first time, which became nineteen sixty seven's Movie Man and how the first edition of the biographical dictionary took shape just a few years later Why of all his books, he's proudest of a trilogy that he wrote that blended fact and fiction Why in recent years, his books have tended to focus on the way that movies impact those who watch them Why, in a sudden flicker of light, he suggests that the glorification of antiheroes on screens big and small may have led to the presidency of Donald Trump and other assorted global problems. Pus M more. And so without further ado, let's go to that conversation David, thank you so much for doing the podcast. It's greatreat to have you. I have read and I'm looking at about twenty of your books. and the crazy thing is it' not even half of them, I think, right? What number are you up to at this point? It's a little alming number I don't keep count by U It's somewhere between twenty and forty, let's say You know what? I actually I have to tell you, I did a rough count myself. I think you're under counting yourself. I think you're up to forty four, but I could be I could be under counting anyway. it's incredible. when you when you get when you get to my age, you try not to count. Well, it's very exciting to get to speak with you. and I'm very happy to be here and Thank you. Good to talk to On this podcast with each guest, we like to go back to the very beginning for Some listeners, you know are going to be more familiar with the guest and their work than others. So just to set the scene, can you share where you were born and raised and what your parents did for a living? Yes, I was born in South London in nineteen forty one U, and my mother? Oh around the household My father was in management in business in ways that, um I don't think my mother understood and I certainly didn't understand and it was all a part of An incredible, I think, u mystery about him which was prompted by the fact that He had told my mother that he didn't want to have children and that if she got pregnant and had a child, he would leave her And she was uncertain whether that was the kind of bullying threat or a boast And in fact, he did act upon it And he went away and he lived somewhere else. and uh, he came back sort of every other weekend for a couple of days so that he and I had a relationship and because I didn't really know any other way of living, it didn't seem that abnormal until, you know, I got to I don't know, around ten or something like that and began to think about it more and more and see that it was not the way my friends lived. So you know, it was an unusual and complicated upbringing. And I would have to say that while I never really had a good relationship with my father. and I think I had a happy child. I was born Well the war was going on and I have no direct memories of that I was told about the war afterwards and afterwards as I became more aware of things Uh I could see that our house that had bomb damagage and many others in the area had And I realized that although we had won the war We were an impoverished broken nation and and and You know, it was a hard life, but it was the only life I'd had. so uh, I was very happy to have it. and and, uh, I don't wish to, uh tell the story in a way that makes me anything like of hardship, I didn't feel that way at all. Sure. Well I know that in the absence of your father, I understand you were, I believe quite close with one of your grandmothers and that she was maybe the one who kind of escorted you to the movies a lot as a child. And I should note also, I guess that Coming out of the war was really sort of a golden age for British cinema, right Well, yeah, I mean, I didn't know that at the time, but but the first film I saw I was taken to by my parents together It was the only time I can recall them taking me to a film together. And it was Henry V F, the Olivier version And they took me into it, I think, simply because They were so pleased and proud that England had come through the war and this was a story about The English defeating the French And it was the sort of patriotic duty to see the film And obviously, I couldn't follow it. I didn't understand it. But when the film broke out into the Green fields of Island where were shot uh, for the Battle of Ajgincour, uh I loved the sight of knights and arrmor on horseback. and you know, I can still recall the feeling of just sheer pleasure at the spectacle. And within moments of that Uh, I was screaming and crying and had to be taken out of the theater because there is a moment when the French attack the English camp and set fire to the encampment And I was I had seen The faces of page boys burning in the fire In fact A long time later when I saw the film again, I realized that I had just seen su a superimosition, the two images but I totally believed I had seen the real thing and found it terrifying and was crying so much that my father took me out into the lobby. And as soon as I was in the lobby, I said, No, no, no, we gott to go back. Weve got to go back. And I think that's That's certainly a pattern of my early film going that I was in awe of the image and often often frightened by it uh felt compelled with it and to keep looking at it, you know. Interesting. Well, I read in one interview that you did several years ago that you'd had a very bad stammer as a child and that you know, it's interesting how many People who in one way or another get into the arts have something like that. And I wonder for you How do you think it? you know, how did it affect your childhood? And how do you think it impacted the direction that you took in life as far as being so much of, you know watching and writing is u, you know, kind of isolated experience and but everything to do with words except having to To say them yourself, I guess, verbally Well, the Dama was easily the single Most. stressing thing about my childhood and it was pretty bad in that When I went to school I was barely able to say a word and I felt tremendous embarrassment about that and, uh, I sort of shame and I felt I did feel cut off. from communication in the ordinary sense. and It was so bad that my school recommended when I was about twelve or thirteen, recommended that I go to speech therapy classes And you know, I had never imagined that you could do anything about a stammer. It seemed to me to be and an organic failing. It made me very angry because there were things I wanted to say. Anyway, I went to speech therapy classes and immediately the first session there, they said There is no cure for stammering, but There are ways we can teeach you. how to handle it. And one of those was Hording me speaking seeing the words or the sounds that I had particular trouble with Uh stammering and therefore formulating what I wanted to say in ways that avoided my big problems, if you understand what I'm saying. Absolutely. And there was no doubt about it in hindsight looking back. This was This was the first situation in which I had sort of analyzed language and seen that it was something that you could manipulate and play with. And I do think that that That triggered a love of language and an urge to speak out. and although Once upon a time, I think I had dreams of being an actor The stamu up is bad enough that I internalize spepeech But I do think that it It was tremendous sort of energy that drove me towards Writing. Wow. Well, I I u I think that the you obviously must have been a very strong student to be offered a place at Oxford, but what you did at that point, I think must have perplexed a lot of people, maybe even in your own home. I know you instead elected to go to film school and this is Must have been end of the fifties, very beginning of the sixties at a time when I don't think very many film schools even existed. So what went into that decision and how did it go over with h the people around you Well, I had seen Uh, inight and sound The British magazine which still exists. Um, there had been An advertisement for what was called the London School of Film teechnique And as you say, was the only place of any sort of higher education in the United Kingdom where film could be A. pursued and I I thought that sounded veryery intriguing. What they said they would do was give you a sort of grounding in film making That had been a very sort of mysterious closed area to me. I didn't really understand at all how films were made and I had the place of Oxford and I could have gone up there and read history and probably would have become I'm academic because of that But I was tempted by this ad and you know, by my By my late teens, I was Really obsessed with film and I would go to see everything I possibly could. And u I decided and I told My school and my parents I wanted not to go to Oxford and to go to the film school. and it shocked people. certainly my teachers who had been dedicated to getting me into Oxford were sort of horrified. And one of them told me that I was minaking what might be the greatest mistake of my life. And maybe he was right, who knows? Well, when they asked you, I mean what did you what did you in your own mind at that point think that I education would set you up to do. What did you think you were going are? I think I had lofty and crazy ideas. I think I dreamed I would become a film director. by the late nineteen fifties I had sort of progressed from Just the simple and sheer enjoyment of going to the movies to asking Well, who made them? And how did Wh did they come to be? Some were better than others And I had discovered inlo Berkman, I had joined the National Film Theatater because they held a complete Bergman season and I think about fifty eight or fifty nine. And that was prompted by the way within the space of a year The seeventh seal and Wild strawberries that opened you know had an amazing effect. Legit over here as well as in Britain. But I was taking films very seriously, I read the few books that were available then, and there were very few. Do you remember which ones you did read? There was a book by Paul Rothther, which was called The Film Now, which had actually been published, I think in the ninetenth thirties. And it was interesting and there was a film by Roger Manville, and that was where I discovered This is an pain whichich of course you could not see at that time U and Then one day a local referegetory cinema said they were going to play Sizors and Ke. and because I had had read about it I believe there would be a huge crowd there to see the film, which was at last re released. because essentially from nineteen forty one to about nineteen fifty five, it had been unseeable So I went to this theatre for the first screening and I was the only person there. That's unbelievable. I know. But that meant I sawces again for the first time in solitude And I would thoroughly recommend that way of seeing it this time Well, you know, I also got a big kick out of reading the kind of impetus for your first il reviews. I know that you sometimes people when they're trying to describe your work, they call you a film critic and that you, I think have sort of distance yourself from that that most of what you've done has not been you know, reviewing on a regular basis in the traditional sense. Obviously your writing is great and could be interpreted as reviews, but most of the time it hasn't been just, you know, reviewing lots of films. However I think the first who who were the first reviews that you wrote for I botght them for my mother. Yeah. She was, u I think she was alarmed that I was spending so much time seeing films. And she was afraid that I was neglecting my schoolwork because of it, which I'm sure I was So she said, well, U if you're going to go to see the films I want you to write something about them. and you know, it was just basically saying Think about what you feel Try to say what you feel. And I wrote handwritten reviews for her. I don't know that she actually read them, but It was, you know I wish I had them now in a way because I would be in intrigue Uh, but It was my first attempt to try to say what I felt while I was seeing a film. And that has always been For me u a touchstone in film writing. It uh I've always believed there's something very Special about watching a film and what you feel at the time and that I always liked film criticism that gets into that area. And I've tried to get into it myself.. Well, it was while you were at film school, I guess that you were making films but found that you were more drawn to writing and and writing about them what what u sort of was there were there people you were Reading who pull you in that direction or what was I know you said also in during film school is when, you know education was was fine, but you were kind of self taught outside of school by going to see so many So at that time, right Yeah. well, It was a very in that uh school. cameame the London Film schoolchool, which is a much more serious and respectable place In nineteen sixty when I was there it was It was so poor a school that some of the students thought ofsing a school Um, I enjoyed it enormously I was I was much younger than other students there And they came from all over the world and it was really the first time I had mixed with people who were not English And I found that exciting. The first American I ever knew was someone at the film school And you know, we got into groups and we did things and we shot little films And many of them knew much, much more about the technology of the camera and of editing that I did but the thing that I was good at compared with other people was to say, well Why don't we make a film about so and so And and I had ideeas for films And in a very crude way, that drew me into being a screenwriter, I suppose, you know? I mean, obviously What I wrote was about one page saying Let's make a film. We made a film, I remember about a man coming out of prison And and and the idea that he was just You were shocked by the world, by the outside world, by other people, by traffic. and there was a big prison quite near the film school and they allowed us to shoot something where our actor came out of the out of the prison and I don't know, it was like a fifteen, twenty minute film. and it was more about space and sound. than anything else. There was no real story, but it was the situation of someone facing a world he'd half forgotten because he'd been in prison for a while. Anyway, I mean, things like that led me into writing. And I think that in turn started me writing short stories And and, uh I I became so interested in that world that I had to get a job to survive and had been unable to get into the film industry. And I went to an employment agency and this talkal to me and ask me what I could do and what I couldn't do and I tryed to say and, um They recommended that I get a job in publishing. and miraculously, they had a job opening already and I think the same day I went to the agency, I had an interview for the job, which led me into publishing. and that was the next great stage of my life. And and I guess it was in that I capacity that you ended up being asked to write a book for the first time about film, right? This is Movie Man in nineteen sixty seven, But you if you had been left to your own devices, Would you have ever even attempted to write a book or was it because of the circumstances of what that company needed if I had been left to my own dream Devices I would have become like an infant film director and I would have played cricket and soccer for England. I mean, those Others were by fantasies and and they meant a great deal to me and I'm still Absolutely riveted for tomorrow Soccer game when England play Congo sport has been a huge part of my life. but But no, that's what I would have done. And what happened was that I was in a Publishing. I had a friend at another publishing house who had talked to me and knew how interested in film I was and He said, would you look at a manuscript we've just had submitted about fil and tell us you give us a report on it? And I gave a report on it and nothing happened. But then about two months later the same guy called me and said, we were looking at your report and we just got the idea that maybe you could write a book about film and I had not dreamed of writing a book before then. I I had dreamed maybe of getting short stories published in magazines. I didn't do that. Uh, that was part of my life. and uh, I sat down and thought, well, maybe I could write a book about What is like going to a movie and you know what the history of the medium has been. And the book you referred to, Movie Man in nineteen sixty seven was published and it was by an American publisher So That was the beginning, but I had not. I had not dreamed of being book writer in that sense, No. Amazing. And I believe A Movie Man, it wasn't like I mean, you've now, as I said earlier, written so many books about film, but the books that were immediately after Movie Man, I think were novels, right? It wasn't for a few years. And and then how do we get from nineteen sixty seven and the publication of Movie Man to this sort of decade, just a few years, starting a few years after that. It looks like seventy one to eighty one. then academia, which is what in some ways, you'd been trying to escape from? was that just sort of a necessity if you're, you know, wanting to make a living while I guess remaining involved with with film and film history and consumption. Was it just that that was the thing that you had to do or was it something that you sought out doing initially in England and then over at Dartmou Well, um, W my wife and three children We moved to the country . Out of London. in sixty seven, I think it was And, you know, we we had a hard time managing making a living And lo and behold an American college based in New Hampshire announced that they were going to open an English campus about ten miles away from where we lived And I thought, well, that's interesting and I had, you know, my book was a published moovie Man and I wrote to them and said, would you have any opening where I could teach or W And they said, come and talk to us And they had a film class advertised in their perspectives, but no one to teach it. So I was hired. And, um I mean, in a way that was Probably the most significant turning point in my life because I started teaching part time there And after a few years they said, wouldould you think of coming to the American campus teach and I did And it was while I was there that I discovered Darkmouth which was about fifty miles away from the campus of this college, which is called New England College. and that led to a a job at Dartmouth, uh, which which was, um at that time a sort of heaven sent opportunity I just want to mention for listeners a few of the things that I have gathered happened during the four years you were at Dartmouth because it's pretty interesting. You were talking about early film books before there were many of them. I imagine one of them that you might have Red was by Arthur Mayer, right? co written by Arthur Mayor and I think that was what was it the literally called the movies, I think? was that one so. Yeah. ye Well, Arthur Mayer was a very old man by the time I got there and he taught a sort of general introduction film one hundred one and, um I co taught it with what was the last time he taught the class at Dartmouth And he was I think he was in his early nineties. and he was a fabulous storyteller And he would he would Gift the class ures where he gave wonderful stories from his time in film distribution. And then I would organize U the class, which was Well over a hundred students into discussion groups. I would lead some of those. And it was a it was a very it was a very exciting time and he was a Wonderfully friendly, lovable guy and and, um did not live much longer, obviously, but We had a great, great time there and I remember He knew everyone and at one lecture He got Paul named Kale to come off from Massachusetts where she lived. And she gave a lecture. That was the first time I met her And another old timer who I think you worked closely with there, who I think even Maybe ran the film program before you What became the chair was Maurice Raps, right Absolutely. and and and u He he gave me the job, which, you know, was pretty Remarkable because I had No degrees but I had published the biographical dictionary by that time. And that's really what got me the job, I think. plus the way Mari rap To me li me. Welcome me was was a tremendous friendriend And eventually after a year or two, I took his position, he retired and I became director of the Film Studies program there. The last of the people I've got to ask you about from the Dartmouth years is It's really you played kind of a pivotal role in the revival of interest in Michael Powell. And I think it was in fact you brought him there. He wrote his memoirs there. And in fact, it sounds like he was also the reason you did not remain there Absolutely. Yeah. I mean Quite extraordinary thing I got a letter one day handwen letter from him which had been redirected by my publisher saying than you for what I had said about him in the biographical dictionary. And we got into correspondence and I I I took the plunge and I asked him, would he be interested in visiting Dartmouth and giving a lecture, that kind of thing, you know, for a weekend, let's say. And he wrote straight back when We raised enough money for him to be a visiting professor And he came to Dartmouth and he actually made with a group of students a film about twenty minutes derived from Urschala Lguin's Earthy trilogy, which he was hoping he might be able to make as a full film at that time. Anyway, he and I became Very close And he u He was an example to me and he sort of asked me once. He said, David How long are you gonna stay here Dartmouth And I said, Well, I don't really No, but I need to make a living you know, and he said, Well think you should think about leaving. And in due course I did And we long en I mean not long en but subsequently we became people who live for a time in the Bay Area in San Francisco. But the great story I have about him is that He came to see me one Friday And he said, David, how do you how do you get down to New York City from here Quickly And I said, Well, there's an aircraft, there's a plane is a service that flies out of a small local airport here and takes you to Lag Guardia So he went and he said, I'm going down to see Marty He metits Scorsese couple of years earlier, I think at the Tayor Ride Film Festival, and they'd become friendly. and he went down and he went down to see Marty Eediting, Rging Bull And there he was in the editing room with Marty and her H editor Thla Schonmaker, the great Thla Schooolmaker, who is still with us. Yes. And of course he ended up marrying her Fantastic. Well The thing that I'm sure some listeners are screaming to themselves, how have I glossed over the biographical dictionary? And as you mentioned, that was in between the two academic positions that you held or the two different I wanted to just stick with the theme of academia for a minute, but I have to of course ask you a bit about what was originally a biographical dictionary of film when it was published in ' seventy five, but obviously later became the and the new and I you know changed over the years. But how did this this was initially written when you were still liivving and teaching in England. Whose idea was it and what was the original vision and just how did it become veryery different from that Well, um, The idea was initially to have an encyclopedia and and uh there would be entntries on Mical terms on national cinemas and some on u leading figures And it was it was reckoned to be a big book In terms of length, And I went away and started riding it. And I found that I was sort of carried away by writing The biographical entries on people And I wasn't doing the other parts of the book. And I showed what I had to the publisher and said, you know, I don't know whether you'll approve of what I've been doing. And they looked at it and they said, yes, we do approve. Go on like that So that it became a book of biographical sketches of directors as actresses, produces, writes and a few other people And um I don't know. I mean, it it It was a book in which I discovered how to do the book but discovered a lot about what really interested me most about film And, um When it was first published In ' seventy five, it was greeted with virtual silence. and I think that I think peopleople just weren't ready for the book and It took a little time and um, about Nine months or so after it was published, that was really the first big review it had had in an English magazine by Gavin Lambert. Id never met him But I admired him and you know what he'd done as a writer. and later I met him and we became friendly. But was it was a very positive review and it sort of woke u the film world up to the book and it began to make its way, although a lot of the opinions in the book and it was a very opinionated book. Anyone who knows the book knows that very well. A lot of those opinions were U startling and talking to people. I mean, One of the things that got talked about most was where I said that Care Grant was the most important actor of the films I've ever had, which I think today is more generally acceptable.. In ' seventy five, it was sort of outlandish E any way, u Over the over the years and six editions, which is what the book is had now it became It became recognized as Proocative. but youthful and stimulating book and It's certainly the best selling book I've ever had And it's the book that everyone I think think so first of all. Well, and I love how you've described it as somewhere between a memoir and a novel disguised as a reference book, a huge untidy autobiography, and even a novel about a man trying to write a book. and there are two people who it sounds like were' kind of key to the evolution of the book and the success of the book. initially the or the original editor who's the one that told you to keep going with that new direction. I guess was Tom Rosenthal. And then you've said that the first three editions of the books, nineteen seventy five, nineteen eighty, nineteen ninety six. didn't really sell well, but it was after you began working with Robert Gottave on the fourth which came out in two thousand two that it really took off. So just if there's anything you want to say about those two gentlemen, I'd be curious to hear it Well, u Bob Gotleib, I had I had written A sort of novel called suspects, which comeot for taken on I mean they They saw a promise in it It was never a big seller, but they had taken it on And I had met and got involved with Bob And he was a really extraordinary. person an obsessive whenever he found something that interested him He wanted to know all about it. So the dictionary was sort of made for him. and, um, H He became the editor on the book And For I think I think I'm right. The third and the fourth editions particularly Oh We had bicoastal phone calls, endless phone calls where he went through the text very closely. suggested other people that might be added to the book And he did a lot to augment it and build it and make it into really what the book is today. and it was the most Fke full wrriter, editor, relationship I've ever had And we should just note for listeners. I mean, it's kind of amazing when you look at the list of people who he had that kind of effect on, everyone from, you know, kind of peopleople who wrote about film like Yourself and Janine Basinger through Robert Carrow, through, ye on and done One last question specifically about the biographical dictionary if I can Are you always making notes and tinkers and things for a future ition between editions? you know, so that it's not just a workload when somebody says, let's go. And or you know, like for instance, right now, it's been U I think twelve years since the sixth edition, have you been working towards you know, doing anything that might appear in a future edition? No. I mean, I'll tell you what's happened The book In its latest form might be twice as long as the first edition It had grown enormously. I'd taken in many more people to deal with in the book And It's over a thousand pages now And I think to keep going at that rate, It would have been a book that would be hard to bind and hold in the hand. In other words, there would have to have been Two volumes And I think that alarm publishers and for good reason because We we're talking now about the age of the internet where The reference part of the book, the lists of films are so easily found on the net. that the book G sort of outdated technologically as a form. and up the publisher of the book. Over here U reached a point where they said, well We're not sure it's economically viable to Go on making this book bigger and bigger and bigger when already most of the people Oh. would be potential buyers for the book have one edition or maybe two or even three editions. they've been keeping up. They came to the decision, which was sort of ping me at the time that no they would not do a seventh edition Um That meant that I was able to making notes in the way I had them. And and, um, I now see, which maybe they saw and didn't really want to tell me, that I was getting to be a little too old for the labor, which was fairly fairly intense. So, u I was sort of freed from it in a way and there will not be another edition. Well, you've but but That has given me time to do other things, which I would to say you've been so prolific in the years s that it's unbelievable. Yeah. And I will just note that another previous guests of this podcast, a very different I The film historian who writes very differently approaches it very differently, but might There was a similar situation for Leonard Malton where they just said it doesn't make sense anymore to keep updating things. but If it's all right with you, I would love to spend our remaining time. I've just sort of grouped your your other books into kind of Datic groupings or just somewhere they seem to make sense to me. If I could ask you a question or two about different groups. I'd love, thank you. You mentioned San Francisco. I know you moved there, I believe in nineteen eighty one. and you have said that quote, upon arriving in San Francisco, I started to write a different kind of book, close quote. And I think that was a reference to suspects, which you also mentioned, that came out in ' eighty five Others and you have sort of described as part of a trilogy of novels inspired by movie genres. There's Suspects in ' eighty five, Silver Light in nineteen ninety, and Connecticut in twenty twenty three. Can just You've also said I think the trilogy is the best stuff I will ever do. So how did it come about this sort of unusual style of writing of where it's really blending real characters and film references with novelistic style Well, I had the feeling That film worked A a level of fantasy. that Very few people had found a way to describe properly So that a lot of film reviews and a lot of film writing wrote about the films as if they were nobles. and they didn't get at The extraordinary Visceral connection between sight and sound and meaning and I had been thinking about that more and more. That's background to what I'm now going to tell you. A publisher came to me after the dictionary appeared And so they love the format of biographical sketches. and thought that I was well suited to it whichich was absolutely cororrect And they said, what about a dictionary of characters from films And I was immediately turned on by it. It was not my idea But I loved the idea And I said I thought about it. and I said, well, yeah, I think that could be terrific. I don't think you can mix genres So I think it has to be The whole book would be characters from one genre or another. and film noir was the obvious one to start with So I proposed a book that would be, let's say a hundred chararacters from Filmmoir prettyty well famous characters from Filenoir. And I would write a biographical sketch that included What we know about the character from the films they're in, but it would be ready to go back beforehand and then afterwards so that you you would tell the story character as if the movie, the famous movie was just one part of that life and that turned into suspects u, which is I mean, it's now called a metapfiction But as I was doing it, it seemed to me that it was fiction but it was a kind of film commentary got at what the films were most about And, um That was written in the early eighties and That was the turning point for me because I just I discovered by doing it As genre That was me, the absolute confusion of fact and fiction. Yeah and over the years I haveve done two more books I saw the light, which is the worst and Connecticut, which is screwball comedy. And I, you know, I as you just said, I do feel that Uh, there's another the trilogy of books that I would sort of offer Uh for the best I've done and probably will ever do. Amazing. Not everyone agrees with that, but that's fair enough. But I mean that's how those books came into being. And I do think In ways I can't really articulate thoroughly, but I do think that the freedom and the daring in those books had a lot to do with California. I have never been happier than I am out in California. I just love being here and my wife and I came to San Francisco when we thought inevitably we will actually end up in Los Angeles because it's the natural place. That's what I always wondered. why is San Francisco instead of LA It was the sheer charms of San Francisco and also the realization that A few people told me is It's great to be obsessed with the philone business and Los Angeles Don't get too close. And I do think that if I had gone to live in Los Angeles I would have ended up a screenwriter. and, you know, to be a screenwriter in Los Angeles is it's it's a life for G frustration because you write a lot and only a little gets done and not necessarily done in the way you would most admire. and and, um I write a lot. I write every day And I emotionally, I need to get the stuff out there and have people see it. and I think that the life I have carved out for myself is determined by that really. and I think I would have become As many writers in Los Angeles do, I would have become embittdered by the process Well, here's the next pairing of your books that seem to make sense to me. Warren Baty and Desert Eyes and Nicole Kedman. So that's nineteen eighty seven and two thousand six. There's long gap between them, but both sort of combination of The historical record again and then imagination. I mean, Warren By and Desert Eyes, I think the chapters literally alternate They do they do. Yeah. And then Nicole Kidman which I think is underutter pretty you took you took flack for it because of I mean, people did it they're not I guess it's almost its own genre of wrriting, but you so you spoke with Nicole, but not with Warren, and yet All right It's just an it's a let me let me leave it to you to describe what what those what those books mean to you Well, I mean, they're very much related to the impulse behind suspects and The other novels It's the interaction of the real and the dream And, um I I I got the assignment to write a book about Warren Baty And it was to be a straightforward Biography and I discovered, as anyone who's written that kind of book has discovered that the big figures and the sort of starry figures. and Baty's a good example of people who You can you can describe the facts about Warren Basy's career, which are pretty impressive, but then there is a sort of a halo or a cloud floating above him, which is the atmosphere. which is the legend. of Warren Baty. And as I researched that got into it and as it became clear, that he would not talk to me But I knew people who knew him very well and I discovered I felt this, um This sort of vagueness, this There's uncertainty about what you knew about him and what you were imagining about him. It was crucial to him. And I wrote a book which as you say, alternates between fact and fiction. and the publisher was, I think dumbfounded is a fair way of describing it. And they were very worried legally about the book And in the end, a quite extraordinary thing happened and this was this is AD seven, I think. Yeah and and, um They did not know whether they could approve the book legally And I said, well, u Let me suggest this I hadn gotot to know Warren's cousin very well and he had helped me. and I knew very well that he was reporting back to Warren about the whole process And so there was a kind of uncertain link of reference. and I said, I'm going show Cousin. The book And I'm gonna to suggest that he shows it to Warren. And If Warren would just say, yes or no, whether he's going to take action against the book or whether he's going to sit back and watch what effects it has Now this is unthinkable today, but In fact, the word came down Warren's okay with the book. It doesn't mean he approved of the book. Right. But he was not going to do anything to impede it or block it Oh my God, imagine if he'd said he was I don't know what would have happened. I don't know. Anyway The book got published and after that up toil that point I had never met him. I talked to him on the phone, but I never met him. sububsequently. I have met him and we've had couple of meetings, one of which where we talkk for a long time And, you know, I would say that we have a sort of a wary and distant friendship, but a real but a real friendship and anyway, the book on Nicole came quite a bit later But it was it was in the same vein. It was trying to get at what she is and what she had done but also about what she meant as the iconic figure And this this book was done U a while ago when she was still a young woman, if you know what I mean. I mean, she's gone on to a middle aged career, and obviously she's going to become an old lady. and she's interesting enough and smart enough to make those period as interesting as when she was a very young, very hot, sexy woman. I'm not saying she isn't sexy still. I did get a lot of flag for it and teasing u which No, was was based upon the idea that I had a great crush on the be I liked her very much I don't think I had a crusher. N that der I don't have crushes on people, but I you think it it, right? Well yeah, there you are, there you are. Yeah. ye. All right. well, the second to last group that I've got I've sort of put together are I guess more ition traditionally formatted biographies, right? So there's Showman, the lifeife of David O Selznick, nineteen ninety three, Rosebud, the Story of Orison Wells nineteen ninety six, and Marlon Brando two thousand three. These are very interesting and the backstories are interesting. I know with Sowman, you got to know the Selsniicks with Rosebud. very interesting to get into you know, Wells and Saysan Caine which I know you have kind of, it seems like complicated feelings about. I'll just quote that with about Wells, you said, I fear I'm like him And you know, it seems like you said Susan Kan, you first saw in nineteen fifty five seen it many times since. you said I'm not the only person in the world of film who will tell you about the way their life was changed changed the first time they saw that film. but it seems complicated because You've seen it doz of times, you've taught it, you've written about it in many of your books. You acknowledge its greatness and yet you were advocating ahead of that twenty twelve sight and sound poll that it not continue to be chosen as the greatest of all time. So anyway, I could go on and on, but I just wonder the more kind of traditionally styled biographies do you O did you enjoy writing those as much as the more kind of surrealistic almost ones that we just talked about Well, u Burn away. biggest of the other books. The biggest project was The life of David It thing. Uh, which was u u I was asked to do it. by his two sons, Jeoffrey and Daniel. and They gave me access to this this incredible Thursday archive which is down in Austin, Texas at the Ransom center. And it was clear that it was a project that was going to take years. It took five years And it involved work in the archive But it also involved interviews with so many people who had known Selsnich. And that was a very conventional biography. that begins at the beginning and goes to the end. It's very thoroughly researched uh backed up with sore sts Um It's it's a it's a conventional book about a man who had enormous success early in his life. and then really increasing failure. And what made the book Personally so compelling was that I got to know the Selzmick family Irene feels like David F wife when I first met her, said to me, you know, if you're going to do this You're going have to become part of the family And I sort of said, well, sure, yeah. But I didn't think about it and I didn't understand how complicated that would be because I did become very, very close So the three of them and u I you know, I live with them in the sense that I would talk to them daily almost and spend a lot of time with them and I reinll who died just before The book came out She was a major figure in my life in I mean, just in a personal sense. She was a she was a sort of turtle even grand maternal like figure and a very complicated person and quite sad and lonely at the end of her life, but enormously entertaining and we got on very well. So anyway, you know In doing that book, I think I showed, well, yes, I do understand what a conventional biography is like and I think I know how to do it. And the Wells biography is not quite as intense or thorough as the Slsink one, but U doing the Sell Think book I was never a resident of Los Angeles, but I spent a lot of time there and it was the period in which I got to know people in the phonem business well And you know I had friendships with Bob Donovich and Rayelson, Robert Town, particularly. and Phil Kaoufman my understanding of what it was like to be a filmmaker in Los Angeles I think there was a lot to that time to meeting so many people. Interesting. and the final grouping, I have to just say, personally, I think these are the books actually more than even the biographical dictionary through which I kind of discovered and really got hooked on your on your work. And I guess we could say these are maybe more in the essay format in a sense, very long essays that, you know, are sometimes literally essays, sometimes chapters of larger book but like for instance, Beneath Moholland was nineteen ninety eight. I really liked that. It might have been the first one that I came upon then the whole equation, which I also thought was terrific. that in two thousand four Have you seen a personal introduction to the Thousand films two thousand eight, The big screen, the story of the movies and what they did to us twenty twelve, How to Watch a movie twenty fifteen, and then now this most recent book, which by my count, I believe is Number forty I'll have to double check again. forty three, forty four, a sudden flicker of light. So I wonder it seems like These are more about the role of movies and Hollywood in the world. You once said Broadly speaking, the way film has changed us. is my subject, close quote, certainly more in than ever maybe in the most recent book that's about to come out. I think it seems like Uh, you've even taking it. as a personal reflection on you've said whether you feel you've spent your life well close quote being so immersed in movies and how they might have changed us as people, our values, our society. And so I just wonder if you it's not that you weren't thinking in any of these terms with the earlier things, but it seems like that's increasingly been a focus of yours in last few decades. So is that overver analyzing it or has something happened that made you think more about that No, I think that's u I think that's a very acute And. account of what's happened I um I don't know how to put this. There is a way in which film buffs Watch old movies over the years, over the decades. as a habit and and I I, uh I know several people H Proudly. Watch the Godfather like once a year And I thought I'd detected This may be unfair, but it prompted me. I thought I detected a way in which They were sitting down and watching the film, but they were not really experiencing it. had they had stopped living in it and with it. They were just renewing an old pleasure And It seemed to me that they were therefore missing. The way in which there is something Dreadful. about the Godfather. It's, let us say One of the best made films ever. It did hugely well at the box office. It won prizes, deservedly so. But it is about say mean fantasy, which is, I think, The guys who watch it and it's really a guysy's film The guys who watch it want to be in that gang. They find the security and the companionship so attractive and so appealing that They dream of being Cly own and I think that is a terribly dangerous situation. and I've been prompted particularly in this line of thought by the realization that we have a president clearly, in my view is acting as if he's in a movie And it's like a version of the Godfather. I mean, it is the emperor As a gangster And and and I don't think I don't think that process is one that film buffs could simply right off. I think it's in the nature of the medium where So much pressure is there to fantasize Well, it's also anti hero thread that's always been there in our entertainment going back to Charles Foster Kane and before that, but I mean, it's interesting you You mentioned or you refer to Trump. Trump says claims, although I'm not I don't know if I totally believe that he's even watched it that Sitizen Cane is his favorite movie. You could see why he would on certain levels relate to Charles Foster Ke, but not be self aware enough to understand why that's That's not necessarily a good thing, but let's just say there's the citiz. there's Charles Foster Kane through the through the Corlees through The pllatin era TV that we're essentially in the midst of right now and Tony Soprano, Walter White, Don Drapper, Marty Byird. Absolutely. abbsolutely. Yeah. And it's something that I think has to be noted also talking to you that you've been treating TV with increasing seriousness for decades. I just got to mention a few things because people should this is not just blowing smoke but I mean, we' you when you were at Dartmouth, so that's back in the late seventies, I think you proposed the TV course. That was crazy at the time, right? That was a radical idea. You had an entry for Johnny Carson, I think added to the third edition of the biographical Dictionary then quite a few more people known for TV in More in the most recent edition, twenty fourteen, you wrote in the whole equation that HBO is the best old style film studio in operation and that the great modern movie is the Spranos. You wrote the books Breaking Bad, the official book in twenty fifteen, television and biography, twenty sixteen and remotely travels in the binge of TV in twenty twenty four Your twenty twenty two sight and Sound topop ten list included the TV limited series, the Underground Railroad and the documentary series, the Vietnam War. In twenty twenty, you told the LA Times that you were amazed at quote, how close Ozark has come to being the great American novel of this moment, close quote. And you really write admiringly about TV in a sudden flicker of light. So I guess that's a long way of getting to the point of asking, is David Thompson now more of a fan and or believer in the future of TV than movies Well, I mean We're kidding ourselves if We don't understand that I was h say. or Babylon Berlin or, you know, name any of those long form series They're movies. They're like old fashioned cereals And you follow them for forty, fifty, sixty hours. And we found a way of making films that virtually go on forever And the audience loves them, loved them Now I don't think that richness of those years quite sustained now. I think that something about long form television rose and now it's subsided a bit. But I mean, it seems to me that You can't think of making a list of the great American movies of the last thirty years without including Panas Breaking bad Ozak. several of this U They are the great works They're beautifully made in the way in which they're shot and acted and written. veryy high quality work They're about the real country in a way that the movies simply don't match these days. And and um Yeah, you know, a time came as you say, where For me, it became increasingly clear that What was being shown on my television screen was actually more compelling than what was being shown on movie screens. And it was silly not to take account of that and recognize it. I I've spent more and more time watching those things and writing about them and I think they're central to the modern experience With the last minute, if I may, we like to close with just sort of what we call rapid fire. justust a sentence or two that comes to mind in response to just a Popery of random things if that's okay. So you are so unbelievably prolific. How do you what's the secret to that? I mean, do you do you treat writing like a nine to five job every day or how are you able to be so prolific I don't sleep very much which proble but It gives me more time. And also for decades now I have had Oh issues of depression, manic depression. that Nothing treats them better than writing posing for me, it is not just composing a sentence or a book It's composing myself, my inner self So I do it I do it to stay well. and to stay alive really. uh, I mean, there's something profoundly organic about it for me. U I have to write. and really if I don't write two days in a row I get very edgy and I'm likely to get very depressed and so on and so forth Fascinating. Okay. Where do you like to write Oh, I will do it anywhere. I I mean, obviously I I spend Most of the time sitting at the desk where I'm sitting talking to you today in my office, which is very untidy, but it's an expression of me and it's arranged the way that suits me best. But I I can write anywhere and, you know, I mean, sometimes An idea will occur to me and I just I have a notebook or I get a scrap of paper and just write something down So it goes all the time. That sort of anticipates, but the next question, which is on what do you write? I guess youd make notes on whatever's around, but do you Do you handandwrite? Do you sit at a computer? whereere are these coming together Well, for years, I believed in nothing less than handwriting all the time and I still believe in handwriting. I think there is a a way in which the movement of the hand and the arm does something to simulate ideas u just practically and professionally Now I write much more with a keyboard than I used to. I'm a very bad typist. I'm a one finger typist And I make a lot of M mistakes Uh, but that but that leads me to this which I think I'm more a rewriter than a writer I write a first draft passassionately headlong sort of thing And there's an awful lot wrong with it beyond the mis typing. But it's I get to be me, I think in the rewriting, of going over what I put down and saying, no, that's no good. That's awful that, change that. and it's in the rewriting that I think I deliver If I do deliver something that is personal and sometimes effective. Is is the writing and rewriting the result of outlining however strictly or is it just pouring out and then organizing it Um I would say that I spend a lot of time thinking about what a book is going to be And I have a sort of framework in my head. I don't often have it down on paper and yes, I thought to pour it out And I then look at it again and I say, no, that's not good. But I can see what the guy is trying to get And and so then I go back to it And I startve to refine it. And that Readwriting is a constant process and Usually at the end of the process, I just have to surrender the book because the publisher says, lookook, if we don't have it now, we're not going to publish it. And so I delivever it and turn my back on it in the sense that I stopped thinking about it in that way. but I could easily keep rewriting a book forever, I think. Do you like or avoid distractions? Is it some people like to have it kind of broken up or they need things going on that take them away from. Do you do you, you know, if somebody walks in the room when you're working and wants to ask you something, Is that a good thing or a bad thing That's okay. I I find that I can't really work writing for more than about four hours at a time So, u, you know anything else that comes along. I mean, for instance tomorrow morning I will watch the soccer And u I I I like to go walking in the hills around here and and u I I'm I'm Ihe of a very, I mean, this may sound absurd But I have a very lazy streak, which I protect and believe in. I like to sit and do nothing at all sometimes. and I think I'm quite good at it. Now what do you do? This is one that all the rest of us who wish we could be as talented and prolific as you would would need an answer to you. What do you do if you get writer's bluck? I have been that Writer's Book for about fifty years. Well, I need to know I need to know the secret to that, but my ally asked if I would be Do it every day. Yeah. I mean, I mean, it it for me, it's like having breakfast taking a shower It's something I do without thinking about it. I know I'm going to do it In advance, I know I have to do it. It's like, you know Every now and then I have to go to the birathroom. E now and then I have to write. And and maybe one product is not that different from the other Al almost at the end here, but I have to ask as far as the dictionary, who was the most challenging person to write an entry about Gsh, this' a good question. G Well I would say bast song. I'm a huge lover of Bresson, but I've always found it very I've I found it hard to write about him and just say what I feel about him and and I think he's been the most challenging. Yes. I mean, two people, Bisson and Bonoel and I adore both of them, but I find them I find them hard to write about. Yeah. Who's come along since the last edition of the book in twenty fourteen who you would be most excited to write about if there were to be another edition of the Oh, well, Paul Thomasan this obviously. I I did not like the most recent film nearly as much as some of the older ones, but one but I Yeah Yeahah. but I think he had a period. I hope it will return where he did just incredibly interesting pictures. So I mean, he's someone I would really like to write about. I've not written about it at any length and I would love to do that. And a lot of actors who've come along, you know, I mean, I mean, I think r Pitt is in the book, but what has happened to Brad Pitt? as both an actor and a producer, an enabler Fascinating and and a really great career Who's the best living writer on film not named David Thompson Oh there's so many of them. I mean, I I I I would say immmediately jumps to my mind I would say Jeff Die Now Jeff writes about A lot of things which is why he writes so well about one thing and another. but hisis book on Tarkvsky is a great book And and um You know, we're friends, but but um I'm just in awe in admiration of what he does. There's another person who is sort of, I think the David Thompson of Music. and I wonder I believe you two may know each other and I wonder if you've influenced each other and that's Griil Marcus We know each other very well. We're sort of family friends. Griel and Jenny And LucyM I we see each other a lot and I think we're very close to them And Griel has been a huge influence and I revere him, but I love him as a person and Uh, yes, I I I think I think we're trying to do the same kind of thing and I feel you're very close to it, Yes Last three raapid fire. Are you writing a book now Yes Can you give us any teas about what it might be pertaining to Mickey mouse. Really Yeah Okay. I hope the answer to this next one is No, but is retirement something that has any appeal to you Asolutely impossible. I'm prepared to I'm prepared to die But I absolutely refuse the possibility of retirement. And finally, many years from now when we are all gone, how would you like to be remembered All I don't want to be remembered. I mean, you know, Iice I mean, the anw is to that. be through children and grandchildren And people can hopefully they if they still know how to read, they can go and check out the books, right? That's sure. One of the concerns I know in a sudden fl flicker of light, this most Reent book is that seems like people's curiosity and proficiency with with reading is not increasing. but ye, I'm afraid so I'm afraid so. Well you thank you for giving me so much great material to read over the years. and thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate it. Well, I thank you. It was a wonderful conversation Thanks for listening to Awards Chatter. We really appreciate it and would really appreciate you taking just a minute more to subscribe to the podcast and to leave us a rating and review on your podcast app And to follow us on Twitter and Instagram, where our handle is at Awards Chatter On those platforms, we announce upcoming guests and provide details about special live recordings of the podcast that you can attend Until next time, thanks again for tuning in. Stitch fix, stop shopping, get styled. A plus on the outfit, Miss Turner You are about to slay parent teacher conferences. Oh these? Just the most perfect fitting jeans my stylist sent me. Oh, hello, you? Who didn't set one foot in a mall and still looks amazing You to share your size, style, and budget, and your stylist sends personalized looks right to your door. Stitchfix. G started today at stitchfix d. com to my stylist This look is dedicated to you Thank you, than you