W.E. and Final Thoughts

Whats with this band Anway? I don't get it, Can you please explain? Wait like bandplain Hello and welcome to Bandsplay. I am your host, Yasi Soic. This is usually a show where I invite an expert guest on to help me explain a cult band or iconic artist. Today's episode is about the filmography off the one it only You guys, my guest today The esteemed hosts of the big Picture podcast, Amanda Dobbins and Seawn Vennessy Thank you so much for joining me here Thanks for having us. I needed people who understood movies cineophiles. Sure, crritics. I don't know if you actually did for this philmography, but that' said, I'm thrilled to. some I want to do some renegotiation. Okay history here. All right. I think that people have been wrong and wronged Interesting. So you're going to reclaim Roughly the entire filmography. No, There's some parts where they were right. I was having a good time prepping for this until yesterday morning when I was going through a couple like I don't want to deal with that right now. Save it for later, saave it for later. And then I was texting you a little salily. But that's okay. I wanted to be a part of Madonna on Bandple in any way that I could be. And when you did I have to take it all. I did. Yeah. it's all the good and some of Not so good. Yeah Not her fault, Madonna innocent, as far as I'm concerned My wife, Eileen wandered into the bedroom last night while I was watching, Who's that girl, which I'm sure we'll talk about. And she was looking at the screen And she said Why did she want to do this And don't she didn't mean this movie She meant tryry to become this in addition to what she already had I have answers. And Per will dig in. tell her to tune in to this podcast. That was what I told her. This is something we're doing here just for now The gloves or the gloves or or Susan. Yeah, why are you gonna to take them off? I don't know, they're a little like hot L think right now is a little hot. I may have to like strip down for those are They're a little itchy. I mean, I don't know I think I'm sure Madonna's were like quite higher quality than these that I got from Jeff Bezos's online shop. but what's that URL? It's ammazon. com. Uk Amazon. edu, I get a student discount. We talked about this a little bit before on our group text and I was like, me Wild eyed, just like my heart open. I was like, We'll do a Hall of fame And then I was like, oh And then you said there's not enough good movies. I mean, she's only made sixteen movies as an actress. so that's not a lot already. And That doesn't mean there couldn't have been ten to make the Hall of Fame. Yeah I think even for the greatest actress of all timees. If you only had the first sixteen to choose from, it'd be tough to build a real hall, right? Daniel D Lewis which we did a Hall of Fame up on the big picture probably is like in the twenties, but it's not he was know Merril Street numbers. He was a chooser And well Still, we were like rooting around for nine and ten. Yeah. he made some dogs too. so he's got that in common with the Dy Listen, we have all We've all had a checkred Creative output. That's what it means to be an artist If you've only ever made good things, you haven't made enough things. That is how I feel. I agree with you. I think about this in the experience of podcasting. like everybody has a bad pod, right? Like many a bad pod. The trick is when you know the pod is bad and you can feel it mid pod You have to kind of lean into the to the badness to make it of acknowledgement or the ridiculousness of what you're doing. Oh, okay. And I'll say like Sometimes it seems that Madonna as a performer is on that wavelength that other times she doesn't maybe hasn't gotten the memo that something isn't going well. Well, I do think it's so different not that I have you know, a huge amount of experience with filmmaking, although you know that I have a directorial experience. Yes. We do know that. You don't always know. You don't you don't always know until the end. sometometimes you do. and sometimes you're like, wow, I thought this was going to be great. And then you're like, oh man, this is bad as the director like over time, you do know when you learn. But as the actor in a film, you don't always have full control over the production or everything's going on or even how you're going to be used or what take they're going to pick So we'll give her the benefit of the doubt at least until filth and wisdom. and WE Or we WE is that what we're called right? Yeah. I I didn't see Phil in Musim. That's like the one that I missed. I think it's an interesting challenge for any pop star when they try to make this pivot because No one tells you the truth as we learned in Charlie XX is the moment. It's very hard to find a good confidant who can tell you like this movie is not going well or maybe you should do this and that can be shared withith honesty, sincerity, and trust and vulnerability. And that's why a lot of times this sort of thing goes very badly for pop stars. It's a very hard pivot to make. It happened to you now too because you're so famous. Do you feel like Jack Sanders won't give it to you straight anymore? I feel like I'm constantly being told what an idiot I am. so that's not an issue for me. You have Amanda to. That's my job. Yeah. Okay I can't do it anymore M cra, we made it for. Rerepping for Mickey Mouseough. Well, you know, I felt Inspired by your trip to Disneyland yesterday with Alice and also I have maybe four to seven Mickey Mouse t shirts, and I find that they look good on me You're pro Mickey. you're writing for Disney and Amazon in this discussion thus far. I'm a techn fascist and everyone knows that about me. I work as spot. As do you guys. Here we all are How should we do this? Should we take it from the top? Let me ask you this, didid she always want to be an actress? Was that always Yeah it was, right? Yes.. So when she was She was at first a dancer, that was her like primary thing. And then when she moved to New York City in the late seventies, she was dancing and when she got a little I think she got a little over dancing after a while and she started to do music and acting at the same time. She was going to like you know, backstage magazine auditions and stuff Which is how we end up with the film a certain sacrifice, which I didn't say. Did you guys watch it? I did watch it. Okay. How was it? It was quite raw. C clearly like an independent film and kind of exploitation film, and a bit upsetting at times. I've seen clips of it, but I didn't sit down and watch. Interesting artifact of sort of like what you do when you're not quite at the seat of power, you know, but want to have and you know she I'm sure you've talked about this on other episodes, but she's exists in this interesting terrain of like kind of this like outsider artist, but also pursuing the highest levels of pop stardom Yeah and her background in New York. and downtown and in the dance and club scene. It feels like it's happening kind of concurrently to the punk rock scene. So there's something about this being like the safe haven a refuge for a certain kind of like lifestyle point of view. Madonna was in like post punk bands. She dated the guy Michael Gia from Swamp. Right. Like she was actually much more in that world than I think people understand or give her credit for But this was it was like filmed this was filmed so long ago. seventy nine. Right Yeah. The man at a very different point in her career and then it comes out Like in eighty five once she's a Madonna. Man ran out of money. Yeah The film was like basically never completed, but I think once Madononna was sorry he was like, oh we better capitalize on this. It reminded me of do you remember the scene from Notting Hill where Julia Roberts shows up at Hugh Grant's house with the blue door because some pictures that she like did when she was like young and broke are published in the tabloids and it makes them look like she did a You know, and which happened to Madonna as well. V famous it with Clayboy and penthouse So it's, you know, but it was it was of that moment. It's also, look, I'll say again, I've seen the like relevant scenes. I respect you guys for taking in the full the cinema of it. Just like she said, I think about her playlayboy shots because she did do modeling too to make money. She was like, I'm not ashamed I don't think that You know, I don't think she was ashamed of it U If anything, I think she might' have been ashamed of how poor the film turned out, but not that she was like nude in it. I mean, there's just like a really upsetting rape sequence in the movie that you would do differently, I think, if you had a little bit more agency at that time in her career It's also pretty because someomewhere in that time frrame like I don't know if it was before or after the filming of that, but within like a year, Madonna was raped in New York and she's just talked about this publicly. So that kind of adds like this whole like extra layer of horror to that situation. Yeah. She does you know, have scenes later in her in Korean as well I think it's more just like this is kind of a grungy exploitation movie and it's not really handled very sensitively I't that movie probably should never have come out with respect to or maybe not respect to the filmmaker Um, All right, let's talk about a movie that I only saw for the first time. the other day, which is nineteen eighty five's vision quest. Okay. And you and you did the whole I think We used to be a proper country is I just need to say about that. F film. What a movie. Wow. So what was keeping you from Vision Quest all these years? It just never occurred to me to watch it. I don't know how I knew about it because of the songs, but right, I feel like Matthew Modine is giving a little S shan Fenz. Did you feel that when you' were watching it? It huge do that we share the New York Kicks obiously one of the all time Nicks fans, Matthew Modine. have like a similar like smirkiness Yes. I see it. Mathew Dein is another one where he obviously he peaks mid to late eighties And so I L cameame of Watching age like slightly later. And so I never really caught up on everything. I would have seen Vision Quest many years ago. It wouldn' have occurred to me Thank you yeah, I can see it J I say thank you It's wonderful film. Linda Fi Mantino, one of the hottest women to ever exist. I believe it's her first film playling a very similar part to the part she plays in after hours too, where she's like an aspiring kind of avant garde artistotally I loved it. This is not really a Madonna movie, but it's notable in the sense that it's her. first real appearance in an actual film that isn't like a weird Downton Artnuff film. And it like it sets a template that is present in the rest of the career, which is just her doing a musical performance. in a cinematic setting. Yeah, which is sometimes the the best way to use Madonna? I think If people are gonna use Madonna, often, they want that too. until she has enough power to say I'm not doing that you know, which does happen later I think it's an artact of itss time for sure, but it's also like it Stsuck by Harold Becker. It's written Daryryl Ponockson, who wrote L Detail. L it's got some class to it as well. I just like that kind of like simple sports movie about pushing for your dreams You know, it just it warms my heart. And also we don't get a lot of wrestling content. Jake Ryan, whatever that actor's real name is So hot He plays Chuch is that his name? They have the weirdest little shuffling But yeah, that sounds Yeah Great in it playing as a Native American Can we situate Madonna in ' eighty five? Yeah, second album Yeah, we our second album has come out. Yeah and is doing Gngustter's Bay like multi times pllatinum. So that's like a versgin. That's like a version. She filmed this a little prior to that So say this is kind of a weird like little bittdy thing to be doing. Yeah. because she on MTV running sh by this point. Like she is at the center of this was in like eighty three So she hadn't right. She had like Her first album had come out The singles were rolling out and she gets this like small part thanks to John Peters, who was the producer famously. We'll come back to him. And the greatest thing about this movie in terms of Madonna is Crazy Free. which was a song she wrote for the film, which is one of the best Madonna songs of all time and the gambler, which is a little bit forgettable. There's a hilarious episode of The Reewatchables about Vision Quest featuring Ryan Rusillo. I encourage people to check that out. Was Ryanillo a wrestler I don't think so. Oh Do you mean despite his physzque Yeah, I tried to do that. I wasn't commenting on it U that's just for him to do. Yeah. It's first personal pide Wow, so there is a chance that Reewatchables desperly seeking Susan featuring Yusolic is in the future. I'm not really think Do you think Bill is a fan of desperately seeking Susan I don't know. I mean how could you not be? How could you not be? Wonderful movie. Yeahah,s why that's why it makes no sense they like they bet on the right horse becausecause then when it comes out, it's like she's like the biggest star One of the three biggest stars in the world Michael Jackson, Prince and Madonna kind of dominate. of nineteen eighty five. Right. And I han't seen this in a long time like Amanda. and so I think I probably just forgot she was even in it. It't It doesn't feel like she just sings notable part of it. It's not really. It's not I was wanted toob I had't see it You do the work? I did it Well, certainly some things I didn't do the work, but Okay. Let's talk about my f b. Yeah, my heart desperately seeking, Susan. S, I know you've on record that you don't think women should make films, but don't you feel that this is sort of something that goes against your personal beliefs about that? I never did and I never will say that. And in fact, I continue to platform female voices on a consistent basis throughout my career. doing something's like ladyotest. So you're platforming us right now? No Oh, okay, that's how it is. No San did actually platform me, ise Okay No, I mean, Susan Sidoman, one of the most interesting important directors in the nineteen eighties. and this is kind of her rising to the mainstream. Why don't we get more movies like this No no, I If Madonna wasn't in this movie, I wonder what the legacy of it would be. That's true. Because even though she is, you know, effectively a side character who doesn't really have like tremendousount of influence. likeike it's R Anan Arcet's movie right? Yeah yeah. And it's not a huge arc that she has. And she's also used perfectly where she doesn't have to carry any of They' dramatic. Tension. She just has to be herself, which is ye She brings energy and she's also an object of fascination to the characters in the movie, which she does so naturally. I mean, that is her greatest gift in pop music and movies and just in life. So U it uses her really well. Part of the reason we don't get this is because this's like a deeply eighties of it' like moment mayie in a great way. It's like when I think about like, oh, wouldn't it have been fun to be You know In New York were thereabouts in the eighties with with all of these people you know, Before New York got cleaned up, quote unquote. Yeah. This is what I'm imagining, which is obviously like a very shiny, beautiful cleaned up version of it, even though there are, you know, crimes and mobsters in it is mobsters. sure. some Egyptian you know, all it stake is in earrings and we know everyone's gonna be fine. and it's just and it's people living out their dreams They live out yourings it in like in it looks slightly gritty but not scary, way so we don't really have We never had this dream version of the eighties, but part of it is that it's just it's twenty twenty six. I feel like this is like one aspect of what it was like back then. you know? like I don't think it's like untrue in that sense. It's just like doesn't it's not showing the totality of what it was like to live in New York in the eighties, It's just showing the fun part I think it communicated to people who were not close to New York what it seemed like New York could be like. Yeah I think the lasting legacy of it is like you were just wearing those you know, lace gloves and her style and there's all that incredible imagery of like interviews outside of Areas before Madonna played of teenage girls dressing up like her Madonna w And I feel like this was the first look. of hers that people really glommed onto and copied and made like Mga. There probably were other things from the first record that because that Because like a version sells like ten million copies and this is such a massive album And she's basically playing herself in the movie and using her own personal style in the movie and then that is like being ported over into the movie into the Rosanna R K character. like this's like winning quality that they have. It's a little bit of a tough beat for Rosanna Arquet though, you know, because she's the precipice of a certain kind of fame. kind of gets blotted out of her own movie because Madonna is getting so famous at this time Yeah She is so careious about You can't not look at her. Rosan A's amazing. I love her and she's so great in this part And the part is just also not as like able You don't like she's cute and she's just kind of like frustrated housewife. A frustrated housewife has amnesia, you know? like it's not And I think she was a little upset about it There's not think it's where she She's very good in it, but the Madonna outstrips are in this one. and then this movie reminds me a lot of Married to the Mb reminds me a lot of this movie, but that's Michelle Peiffer in the in the Rosetna ar cat, like you know, category or character and It's tough when you're going up against Madonna and then when Michelle Peiffer comes to, you know, eat your lunch three years later. Yeah. But this is the step two in the after hours triangulation for Madonna where she gets to work with herquette now. We'll get to part three Yeah. Yeah really. I just I love this movie. I think like you said, They Susansidelan bet on the right horse with this because I think she She wasn't originally there was some real actresses that were up for the part. I think Ellen Barkin was one of them. I can't remember They were named good together Rosean Ar and Barkin and they had the same kind of and Ellen Barkin had also had a real vibe, a real trractor beam quality back toally. But she Susanalman pushed Madonna becausecause she knew her from like around town and Danceatrea and stuff and It worked and this movie made all its money back in like three days because McDonald was so famous. it might like to your point, it might not have even been remembered at all if it hadn't have had Madonna and particularly if it hadn't have had into the groove in it. which I mean we talk about in the first Madonna episode, but like That was not meant. that song never lived anywhere originally, but it was just a a demo floating around they were going to sing into the groove like on the on the floor somewhere being like, we don't need this. The version that lives in the world and is in this movie was a demo. It was recorded in an apartment in the East Village and they never redid it. And crazy I mean good for her Yeah, Fantastic. Have you seen Smithereens? Yes, I love Smithereens. I love yassy coated movie. Yeah. I think she's so cool. Also, this is a thing I'm obsessed with and I should look up their name And I didn't catch it until I saw the film again like a year or two ago becausecauseuse I'd seen a bunch when I a kid, but I hadn't revisited There's like a scene where I think it's Rosannena Arcet's character's husband and sister played by Aunt Jackie from Roseanne, a wonderful actress. Sure Lurie Lurie Mac. And they're coming to like get her out of prison or whate or jail. and the camera stops and pans cross three triplets in exactly the same outfits Those are the triplets from that documentary about the triplets that were separated at birth. Really? Isn't that not insane? But I reckon I was like, oh my god, it's those guys, but that documentary didn't exist yet, so they were just like probably New York fixtures that hun out and Susan said identical strangers. identical strangers Exactly. And they are in desperately seeking Susan. Wow. Isn't that a fun little tid scream Iw there's a million greatam videos. John Lurry is in this film, Richard Heell is in this film Anne Carlyisle, Rocketss Red Glare. . What happened to Des Aid Qinn Aiden Qinn to me by the way, is one of hottest m that's ever existed. I escially really this. And when I watched it, I was like, you know, I don't think the first time I saw this movie, I really appreciated what was going on there. Hot Sineophile works runs a o, runs a S in a movie theater projector. Yeah yeahper tall ry ch, we don't see that anymore. That doesn't exist. Do you think he's in practical magic too? I think so God Well, he was, you know, Legends of the fall I' not see it hear me on Aiden Quinn'sikipedia. Tough beat. I'm seeing City from the sea starring Dominic Cooper or the Low or Cry from the sea Sorry city from the sea I don't know what that is. It's my. City by the sea. Yeah is No, that's just by the sea is the Bad Pit Angelina film Challenge film This goes into something that's just a small through line that doesn't have to do with Mar that I would love to talk about throughout this, which is that like We don't have men like this in films anymore Irish Americans? No, just like U Matthew Modine is a good example when we get to He nice, what are you saying Like skinny, like not chad L Likees Light anyone. Like a sort of like Thank you, yes, My people. Skinny, but like a little off. like a little unusual. L Griffin Dunn is a great example when we get to use that girl. L theseese are like really interesting looking and I find them quite attractive. but they not used all of them and then they didn't make anymore? Yeah they didn't make any moreore. They anymore That's true. I like not every be Jacob Lord Where can we have some Why is everyone six six and yoked? I don't Butler I wake up and I do actually say why is everyone six six and yoked? I don't think Louis Pullman is kind of a good example. secretly yoked. I just met him and he he was large. ye. And Timothy Chalabet is too confident He's like the closest, at least build wise. He's pretty He's like James Dean. you know Yeah. you're talking this a sort of like ordinary guy. Griffin Dun, I think is a perfect example. likeorry hand to lead a film. When's the last time you saw a man like that lead a film? Now they're all just like the SNL boyfriends, you know, They're all SNL writers and married to Emma Stone and Dave Mcrraay Yeah world. I think we've lost some With that and with everyone fixing their teh, we've absolutely lost something. I agree. Well that yeah. I mean, Griffin Dunn in particular, like a lot of imperfections, but it like just incredibly charactermic. charteric so funny I thought I think could totally lead a movie, some of my favorite films popping up in a lot of her movies for some reason y guys Wh' the regular guys Yeah. Yeah, even honestly, I know this gonna sound great. Even Sean Penn while like Obviously are commanding and hot. presence H like kind of fucked up face L interesting. No he was, I mean, his correct me if I'm wrong, but I think his attractiveness is born of like a crazy confidence. I mean, he's just so in command when he's on screen and feels like he has a secret that no one else is ever going to learn. And so it's a different kind of thing, but you're right that he is like a little unconventional looking. And just we don't's like all that we have older Sean Penn and Sean Penn over the decades to watch him again in the eighties I'm like, you're a little young and a little scrawnny. atast Yeah. fully young and scrawny. Yeah. Not like now or he'ily Rure piece hide leather, you know,. God bless him. Again, they don't make him like that anymore. No, he's living hard. He's living real.is best friend was Bakkowski. Like this guy really like lived he was about that way. He's, you know ripping American spirits and flying into Cuba. I mean he He's literally in a more torn countries like with his own hands. He was in Haiti and he was the mayor of an establishment in Haiti to like rebuild. He donated his Oscar to Ukraine. Yeah. To make more bullets. To be melted. Yes. meelted. I think it's We will follow up on that. I don't actually know whether the bullets have been made You wan to know if they've been fired? H they killed any Russian soldiers? Is that what you're asking? No, I just, I don't, you know, much like Tom Cruise sent his Glden Globes back, but like I never saw the tracking number. I see. We. Yeah. Yeah I don't like I didn't see any smelting. So we don't totally know. It's fair. You think Chan a minute take? Is Is think By the way, I don't really know what is smelting It sounds like it's melting in. That was a real I'm using the word like I definitely know that's what you would do to melt down an Oscar into bullets. I don't know. Ilication also that they would be gold bullets are Oscars made of gold? No They can't be, right? They're way too valuable at this point. Gold prices wayay up there. I see. You want to go to the gold standard? Well no, you think many people don you can't be made of. I don't think. I don't think it's actually made of gold. I don't's maybe not even plated. fourteen was. They'd be likeers may pnts because're not you wanted on bance plane. This is stairs Always banceple. Solid bronze Okay. Anded in twenty four kat gold, according to AI. Okay. Well, gold does not make good bullets as far as I know. I'm not like a weapon. I'm I' not an expert on that. nor do I want to be Sean Fen might be wish offed. Okay Speaking of Seawn P, had three of them or he had three u 'il he start smelting them. Well he still. You can't take them away from him just because he' physically doesn't own smel. You mean like emotionally? Just cosmically It's a prry.s an aw It's an achievement.. Smelting is a process of applying heat and a chemical reducing agent to an ore to extract a desired base metal product. I feel like we need to get Jack Sanders to drop in, even though he's not working on this episode.anda science engineering. Yeah. Maybe we should rebrand it to Woman in STem Yeah. Amandas Stem Cner. I think it's all alienating for all the men. You know, I feel like we want to participate. We want to be able. Are they here listening to this podcast? Are they in this room? Maybe not in this episode. I believe in my audience. I think they can they can roll with it. Okay, we are speaking of Sean Penn. Yeah. so we will speak of Sean Penn because the next film. It's a tough one is Shanghai surprise. nineteen eighty six. Sure. Yeah. I'd never seen this before. I watched this for this episode. I hadn't either. I hadn't either. I enjoy it. I think there's a reason why. You know, watch I watched a documentary last year about handmade films, which was this production company that George Harrison started whichich is was a great production company. they m excuse me, do they mention Chang her surprise I believe it comes up I can't remember. There's a lot of times fent on like the Python films and a lot of the more interesting films like withith Nil and I was onene of my favoritees producers by him of all time. had it all time How to get ahead in advertising the other How what is the actor's name? Richard E Grant? Yeah. I love him. They had this kind of I think along goodood Friday, The Bob Hoskins movie was produced by him. They had this incredible stretch of movies of producing British films in the nineteen eighties. and Harrison just like bankrolled it. It was just his money paying for everything. And Is see the best beetle? did we all agree? Well, he had such a. Yeah. And this was one of the things that he did. He's the best Beatle for you And I think that that's good take. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. are are like other gls. But George is super cool.per And I also love his solo work. And he produced this movie as, and he wrote music for this movie. But I think afterwards, he was like, no I didn't.. Yeah, exactly. Well, so I had also never seen Shanghai surprise. I knew that it It wasn't I knew there was a reason that I hadn't seen it. So when I sat down and I was not expecting like one of the great works of cinema, I did not know that George Tarrison was a producer on it until the credits started rolling. And I just was like, oh no, George, no, I don't want you like you wrapped up in this. But his name is in the credits sp fourteen times. It is. There were five songs for this movie Hey so Okaykay. this is gonna to come up for me a bunch times in Midononnamoar It could have been good I think it could have been like a great work of cinema, but it could have been like a fun time at the movies and it's just really not. And that's confusing to me. while maybe not like the world's greatest acting performance here She's so beautiful. She look like that made the very, very That made the watching for me at like able because she's so stunningly beautiful on camera. It's just like blonde hair and the looks and everything Sean Penn is absolutely phoning it in from seventeen states away. I believe he was And they charged for long distance then I they did I believe he has he has confirmed that he was drunk almost. I feel like it's not that he's phing it in. I feel like he's just off He's giving like a very messy performance. Yeah's like they both made some big choices with the characters in terms of their performance styles And they're going for this kind of U It's very similar to the next movie that we'll talk about where it's a very old fashioned kind of comedy. Well, that's what she wanted to do, right? She wanted to do like nineteen thirty screwball. She loved Carol Lombard. That was like her Which star I think is a great idea and on paper makes a ton of sense. And even to your point I agree she looks like very beautiful in Shanghai surprise and even in Wh's that girl because that styling that, you know, that era of physical presentation really, really works on Madonna fits on what she's playing with in her music and specifically her tours and is like a great reference point. But They don't have whatever magic it is to bring it mismatched. I'm going to make an argument that I think who's that girl is good. I genuinely think it's a good movie and we'll get that Shanggai S surprisees bad The performances are not great. There's no chemistry somehow where even though you're married to each other, I am not buying that you like each other at all Sean P Beard is put on with mascara Yeah. I was like, where was the budget for he looks insane. The story makes Little to no sense. Correct. There's high key racism. It is just quite alarming. Yeah And I know that this is one where like they had a horrible time making it. and like it's bad because everyone hated each other besides Jehn and Madonna. L the crew and the director hated Madonna and Sean. Madonna and Sewn hated the crew and the directors. It was freezing cold and it had supposed to be summer. So she was always wearing these like little dresses. And like again, she's not a seasoned actress to the situation, Sean Panig again drunk, like It's just it's a recipe for disaster. Yeah, I mean, Jim Godard, the director like didn't really make a lot of feature films. He did a lot of British television Yeah. And so like it doesn't really feel like the steadiest hand is there either. Totally. That's what I' saying Madonna Innocent. Also I feel like they could have put a few other like bigger act or better actor they're not their supporting cast isn't amazing either, you know? There's some familiar folks like like Victor Wong who's in a ton of carpenter movies in the eighties and is really funny. like I he's a kind of actor who fits this tone well. You know, Paul Freeman, who's the bad guy from Rid of the Lost Arc There's some memorable British figures here. It's just like This movie and who's that Girl bothoth are totally doing the thing you're describing where she's trying to do a Carool Lombard kind of like Ditszy blonde that's smarter than everybody else move, but that feels a little bit closer to Judy Holiday movies me from the nineteen fifties. And the reason those characters are the way they are is like that was a kind of contemporaneous style of performance and she's trying to bring a very old fashioned performance style, which she really loves and admires and put it into, this is period piece, but the Pacing is more modern and then who's that girl? It's a contemporaryvie And you're like, whyy are you acting like somebody who was born in nineteen oh eight? And it's never really explained, you knows like we're just kind of hoping that her charisma will carry. Well I thought and who's that, okay, so I'll say, I think who's that girl works. I think that people are like unfairly harsh on it. I think it is absolutely super fun. I think Griffin Dunn is amazing. I think the story is interesting. It's just like to me, like fun eighties movie that like has all the best parts of like what I like about this kind of film where they're like, o, we don't have CGI. We trained a Panther and we put diamonds around as. Its name is Murray. I think the screwball Carool Lombard think she's doing here works a lot better than the Shanghai surprise one because it is closer to who she is, at least like stylistically and she's just being It's not a real person. It's not supposed to like she's a cartoon character, you know. And it's kind of charming to me. I don't know if some people were put off by it, but like it's a very nice It's a very old trope, right? Like the like manic pixie insane woman and this like stayed like lawyer who's like trying to do the right thing. I thought it was I really liked it. I don't understand why it was so I think Shanghai surprises ill will bled into this film. That's how I feel Yeah, I I wish who's that girl We're really, really good. and I don't dislike it. I like it, but it is borrowing, you know, I like Madonna, really love all those screwball comedanies. This in the in the Panther has a direct reference to bringing up baby, which is ably my favorite of the old time romantic comedies and, you know, it's a similar structure of Daffy off the wall woman coming in to disrupt the stage social structure of you know, a of a man. Yeah. and The problem is that the The Madonna movie and then the Griffin Dun movie. againg, they're just in different movies. and it is supposed to be like sort of a world's colliding or like a to fish out of water being flipped structure, but they don't ever actually meet, you know, they're almost like just acting against each other on split screens and that's why I don't know, I like the two halves of the movie They don't me. And that's what makes me sad about it. I think it's a really hard tonone to hit correctly and it's so James Fully directed the movie. He directed a bunch of really good movies. but not here that he had only done He had only done the Sean Penn close rangees. And I wonder if that's why he got this job. He had just worked with Seaan Penn. So kind of the context here, which is interesting is Madonna's extremely powerful now. And this is Warner Brothers film and she's a Warnerrothers artist. So she got this film made like wholesale. She got the script. She chose James Foley as the director because that was Sean's best friend. and she trusted him. He had done a couple of her music videos at this point too She changed the name of the film. It was supposed to be called Slammer and she like was writing music and she's like, that doesn't work for a song. I wrote who's that girl? Well this mov is called Wh who's girl And they were like Warner Bothers was like, whatever you want b You' one of our famous artists Yeah, it's just if you look at I really, really like James Foley, he directed Glen G Glen Ross Yeah. He directed afterfter Dark My Sweet. He he He's kind of in he's kind of like, um kind of a sub Fincher. He's like he's he was friends with Fincher Yeah and he worked on House of cards and you know Finisher obviously is a huge figure in the Madonna image making history, which I'm sure we'll get into a little bit. And he didn't make any movies or even Not a drop, like who's that girl? Like everyvery movie he made was a hardboiled thow. It was That was just like a bad. like she wanted him because she felt comfortable, but perhaps this is not his wheel house but it's like not on anyones specifically's fault. It's just like sometimes the am doesn't rise, you know, And this one just kind of feels like it's just like unfinished. I will say Halyn Morris, who plays Griffind Dun's fiance It's like one of my all time movie crushes. She's also around Gremlins too and she's She's the blonde from sixteen candles, but I love her as a redhead U off course you can Of course and She's great. And also that the little subplot of her is like so great. I just I get it. It's not a wonderful movie, but I I think it was very harshly criticized. L it was just It was like just a fine normal movie that wasn't as bad as people made it up. Right. I just think they they were like taking on the Shanghai. But it' also it wasn't amazing. Yeah Ghana in ' eighty seven. Yeah. Where are we We have put out True Blue, which is a fucking smash. It's like eleven times platinum. Yeah. She's married to Sean Penn, That's what True Blue is about. Okay. She's huge. She'd done live aid, you know, like she's a massive massive star. Right. So is any of it just the one hundred percent know, she's like doing these things Oh on the side. was in that close range. Y tootally forgot about that We didn't talk it because she's not in it, but. Lifall also a fun she wrote in like it was supposed to be a song for a different movie and then She her collaborator broadred and she like was like, oh, we can put it in James's movie. She wrote the lyrics in like five minutes and that was it. True Blue is crazy. So is this one of the best albums of all? Yeah. Is it like a little like stick to music? that's what I was I thinks I think it's a one hundred percent of being like, oh, like You can't do it. likeike Madonna gets this her whole career. like Yeah It's never just like on the basis of what she's doing, it's like Don't get too big for your rches. I think also don't try to be a movie star. I think host, Papa donon't preach, she takes on a very like fiery valence in the culture, right? So like every time she does something people are like, hold on. The nude photos have come out because they come out right after Lveid and that was like a huge scandal that she has like eighteen pages of nude photos, which by the way, are like so tasteful. They're for art class. you know Do have them at home right now? No. I've seen them. And like a version was incredibly scandalous. that performance, you know Yeah. I think Annie Lenox called her like a horror or something. Like it was like really it was all everything Annie Lennox wants to take that one back. Yeah But that was I mean, Here's the thing with Madan. I remember this. very well because My mom was a huge pop star fan and she hated Madonna. Re just hated her. Oh no. My mom didn't really hate a lot. So it was always very memorable to me that she was just not into it. And I think that there was something about People who were raised Christian Madonna just got under their skin. You know, and that she was trying to provoke them I mean to call her a slut. Like that was like a thing that that Madonna very, I think cannily very wisely was kind of she was playing with. She was like confronting people with their discomfort. I think yes, but I think like Also very funny, how different. My mother was obsessed with Madonna and that's why it's like the first artist I was ever aware. I was like raised only knowing Madonna music But I think her thing was that she was very entically entrenched in religion herself. She was raised very Catholic. And so what she was doing was working out her own stuff and it just happened to really trigger some other people. Of course, she's very savage and she knows what she's doing. Yeah. She was very good. That's why we actually like a prayer. But she wasn't doing it inauthentically. She was getting a reaction while working out her own art. But she is also some the machine becomes self aware. Not that Madonna is always very self aware, but she's doing it a little on purpose. byy the time you get to like a prayer, which is when I logged on and my family logged on. And I remember Madonna being one of the great early taboos that I was just absolutely obsessed with And then being told like, well, do you know what like a prayer is really about? And you know, all the way you were like six and you're like oral seus. Low jobs. Deinitely not. it's about religious ecstasy. But yeah, she's trying she's trying to provoke. That's part of her artistry. This is like was I raised by wolves? ' my parents were like, this is fine. We love Madonna. you can have like The Madonna naked smoking poster on your wall. They were like, we're going to watch animal poster. one of the best. we were going gonna watch, I don't know it wasn't stole that closter toower reccords and I was like, how was this legal? It might not have been might have been smart My parents let me watch like full Rated I think we watched Bacing Instinct together. I think it was like ten. Like my parents were just not whatever reason I think that they didn't It was an outlier for. I don't think they were being cool. cool. Yeah, I was allowed to watch R rated movies too. you know, it was a fairly permissive experience. I think she just something got under her skin about her. And I do think that's kind of that's been true of Madonna for decades. I think that's part of why she's one of the most important artists of our lifetime because She made people think in a way that pop music hadn't done before. She pushed people to like have to like reconsider things and whether that meant that they didn't agree or agree. like that wasn't really happening much with pop, especially female pop musicians before that, you know wr I read my writer d. Who's that girl innocent? Love who's that girl? Okay. James Foley probably would rather forget. Also, did you notice Stanley Tucci is in the movie for like one second, he doesn't speak I did notice that. He's the other dock worker. Oh he does talk he's the when they get the Panther or the wildcat or whatever. All right, Blood Hounds of Broadway eighteen eighty nine Directed by Howard Brkerner, Are you familiar with Howardrokner's work No. He didn't do a lot because he died before this film even came out. He had done a couple things before and one was a documentary about William S. Burrroughs.. He was kind of part of the Andy Warhol crowd. so Madonna knew him from like back then. I've seen Burrs. Yeahah, it's a good film. He's great. He already had AidDes while they're making this film And he basically like went off of medication. becausecause it was so important for him to just finish the film. and he finished it, but he died before it came out. Also, I think it was pretty heavily recut is this is a black and white film based on four Damon Runyan stories. Sure. Yeah, I wouldn't I I would say to this, my general theory on short stories, which is, you know, write a novel. I' make a whole movie. But maybe don't make a film. Yeah, unless it's forward. They do not totally They don't come together. I just found it hard to follow I was like, I'm not it's really hard for me maybe it's my diminished attention span, but I was like I'm not totally sure what's going on here. Who is that again? Why are He sold his feet to the scientist to pay his gambling debt I didn't revisit this. I've seen this before for the years. You remember Randy Quid selling his feet to science? I don't. I rem You understand. You've done that yourself. I remember Ruter Hower trying to do nineteen twenties New York comedy, you know, like old style gangster comedy Yeah. And to me, it's like for Madonna's purposes, it's the same problem that these other movies have, which is like she keeps trying to be comic actress instead of an actress who can bring comic levity to dramatic circumstances, which she figures out later in her career. trying to be like the funny dame. which is the persona she keeps going for she was trying to do that.''s that's what she was into. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, she's picking the parts right? You said, she's got all this power. Ands it's interesting that she keeps being led to this because to me, it feels like the cultural inverse of what makes her such an interesting presence as a musician. whereere she is like kind of on the cutting edge of something, or at least it feels like it or you know, there's much discourse about how much she was sort of adopting other cultures and shooting what they had built through her prism. but This is all this like old fashioned stuff that It's cool that you like it, but there's nothing really modern about what she's trying to do with it. And so I think these movies, these kind of early stage films all have kind of lousy reputations because it's like she's trying on clothes that don't quite fit her. Yeah. I mean, the only thing I like about this it's not like terrible. it's fine. I watched it. I was like, Oh, Mattylan She did it at like scale because she loved this director and his work and it was kind of like a favor, I think, which is quite kind, you know? And I think she was at his bedside when he died. And so yeah that stuff is nice, you know? I don't think she wass like, this is my proudest moment as an actress, but And I don't think this is her proudest moment as an actress either in nineteen ninetiess Dick Tracy Seaan, speak on it. Well, I worked on me Yeah, she's great at it She's good. she's, you know It is the best use of her trying to recreate thirttyies, forties You know, you know why because the whole the movie is not just reheating it. It is It's an adaptation of a comic book, but it's also referencing a lot of Nars from and knows how it is using the references and knows how it is using her and puts her in a position to succeed. Yeah, I think also just she this character has like a sinis not sinnister is not the right word And transgressive streak, which so does Madonna and it really works here whereas I don't these characters before where she's trying to be this sort of like thirtiest thing didn't quite have that darkness Yeah. And she has. So like we're perfectly here. Yeah, I totally agree. I think it's her realizing that instead of Carool Lombart, she should be trying to be a Barbara Stanwick. that like there's a fem fatal quality to Madonna that she's so alluring and she seems so intelligent that That is that's the archetype for the Femitalle. You need an actress who conveys a kind of like sensuality and an allure to a dumb guy to kind of bring this guy into your web and then spin the web around him and get what you really want. And she as like a popular figure, I think sometimes communicated that really well and born baby knows a thing or two about getting spawned a web, you know, like he' spinning a web. Well, yeah, they want each other a little bit. Do you think a Femfatal also has a quality of vulnerability? Or is that not part of the? I think she brings it in this. I think that might be a little bit of a flaw of the movie is that it's trying to be a little too peG at times. And so the movie doesn't really totally follow through on some of its more a noir shading Iess trying to have what Amand was saying It's trying to be both. It's try to be this comic strip thing and it's also trying to be a really hard boiled story trying to have guys with like lots of weird makeup and funny names, but also people being shot in cold blood I don't know, I love this movie because when if you when I was eight when this came out, I saw in theaters and I was like the colors and the comic book stylings and you know the dash and quality, like I didn't realize that Baby was way too old for the movie. When I saw it, I was like, that guy's cool. You know I couldn't really read it. And so it just kind of sits inside a very nostalgic place for me. Breathless Mahoney is probably along with Jessica Rabbit, one of those like activating agents in my mind of like What am I drawn to? What am I attracted to? And she is she's even though she's riffing on something that happened fifty years earlier, for me, it was the first time I ever saw it. R. Right. And it is a riff rather than just a Xerox copy, whichich is what makes it successful. It was like when I saw a material c video and I was like, this is Gentlemen prefer Bondes because I don't have never seen that film and see what that is now. I don't know what that is, but this is that. No, same thing Wn baby a little too old Um or an insane time where you could get actors of this caliber put it on like insane prosthetics and look like full clown show and come and do like Al Pacino looking like that. Nuts It was an amazing act of autorship. Yeah. At what point does their relationship start? Is it before filming, during after like are they It's before filming. Okay, just before. It's basically like right after she divorces Sean Penn. Okay and gets cast in this and then they pick up. It's kind of like from what I read that was like Warren Baaty sort of like thing likeike he would like I mean, you had many things, but I believe that that was many of them. thirteen thousand is what the I read said So they're dating. Madonna has talked about this that she had a horrible time making this movie that Warn baby would like sort of push the scenes too far and like there's like some just some memories of like Al Pacino like really like laying into her and baby like again until she like started fully actually crying on set which is actually a crazy thing about because that's what Al Pcicino looked like while he was saying Yeah. She said that he insisted that she gain ten pounds. and would take her to the costume store and kept being like tighter, tighter, cut it lower and she was like, I felt like a piece of meat. like She't have a nice she didn't have a nice time making the film She also did this for scale because she wanted the partarts so bad. But she negotiated a percentage of the proceeds of the film and the soundtrack me qu a bit of money in the end because she's very very smart. Good job. Movie was a big hit. Big hit. And one small important thing is that for just the Madonna arc is that because Three of the songs she has to sing in the film are the Steven Sondheim songs. She had to get a vocal coach And so this is like the first iteration of her sort of elevating her voice to another level because she had to like she couldn't The rhythm changes and like the melodic changes of Stevenen Sondheim songs were like so complicated that she like needed help. she needed a different training. Yeah. And then she made her inspired by songs This is not technically a film in the sense of it being a movie, but I think we have shopb truth or there. Yeah, that is a film. It's not like a ' isroductory. It say that because this is probably the only one we're gonna talk about. She made a couple more of these, but they're I never saw them. Yeah yeah. they're good. Yeah. If you want to see your boy Guy Richie, he's in the next one after this, I want to tell you a secret. This is a great movie. I think this is the greatest music documentary. I agree that this is absolutely classic. And I did a similar thing where I did all of the When we do these big rewatching projects, I save something special for very end. And I went out with some friends had several drinks and then came home and was like tr through there in fall. and it was you made Madill so jealous. Yeah. I should have done that I should have done. I think it's a perfect blend of likeike stage managed moments real moments and performance footage. L the blend of those things where like there's something she wants to accomplish that she's kind of performing for the camera. There's other moments where you're like these people are clearly just hanging out. And the fact that they're hanging out means you're getting this Verite gold And then I think a lot of the performance stuff from the tour is really, really amazing. It's really, really seeing her kind of this is really her, I think at the height of her powers where She's got like a ten year catalog She is the biggest pop star in the world She's a better dancer and like stage show person, I think maybe then I had remembered. She I mean, she's a trained daner. Yeah. She's an athlete But once you start watching, you're like, this is an incredible feat. and she can do this. There's but there's not a lot of how to frame this L this is before the kind of boy band and Brittney Craze where those people were sort of like dancers first in some ways before being vocalists but it's not quite You know like Whitney Houston couldn't do this. you know, like there's kind of a middle ground here where she has some vocal chops. she's never like best known for that, but she has so many good songs at this point. She's got like twelve or fourteen songs you' like, I desperately need to hear this tonight and She's just her and her crew of dancers are so good that it's just so visually compelling and great material for a concert video dock as opposed to like watching the Eagles perform or something or you're like guys playing guitar. This is the tour that I think created the blueprint for all pop tours going forward. Like this was not a thing really, where like you'd have multiple worlds and like all these like costume changes. and there was like an art to it where it was theater, you know? this was very Madonna sort of like minted that She had done it a little bit up to here, but this is when she hadn it money and ability resources. She was she wasn't the first person to use the wireless mic. That was Kate Bush actually, but she made it like Like people called it the Madonna so she could move and go freely. I thought it was really interesting that this was supposed to be directed by David Fincher Yes. But he was hired to do David alien three Okay. What if been a sliding door? You know As much as I love David Fintram, Big Dave Stan over here, I don't think it would' have been as good if he had made it disagree. I don't I just I think that I think Madonna had different relationship with him. which would have yielded she was like impressed by him and sort of maybe even a little intimidated. Yeah. So I don't know if you get the candor of all. And I think they might have had a very intimate relationship You know what I mean? An I just think it would have been so different. And the kid that she hired was like twenty three years old. She she. She had been she's so good at this. Like one of her greatest skills, Madonna is identifying collaborators and plucking them from like very early on, She had seen his senior thesis at Harvard, which was like a pop opera version of Wuthering Heights. Okay. whichich actually was gonna to be made at some point and there's Rin, Madonna's Rin song, was before that adaptation that never got made. But anyways, and she was really into him. She'd been following his career. And so when David Fincher could't do it, she was like, I want that guy an incredible leap of faith. And for. But so when it starts, is it just the concert No, So they did want to make a concert do and then she was like No, that was going to be on HBO. It was kind of a regular document. And then she was like, I want to do something totally different. So the HBO was like, there was an HBO a totally separate HBO concert film that was like an incredibly huge hit So then she has Alec Jin, who's like I want to film, which I think I think works so incredibly well. having the black and white and the color be like The BTS is black and white The concert footage is color and putting in these two different worlds, but newew Line cinema was like, where you're not paying for anything in bllack and white And they pulled their money. And so Madonna funded it with her own money four million dollars. Well, good job. Good. I mean So many iconic moments. Obviously Kevin Costner that was neat That was really viral, you know, just like good shit. But also just a really good snapshot of Kostner at that moment and what they. She apologized to him publicly at a concert many years later. How does she do like? Sure Yeah. I mean, she's right in the mom She was like she was like, I'm literally up there like bearing my soul and you called it meat. Yeah. I mean, also just like read the room, sir, which you know, I don't know whether Kevin Cost just could do then likeorny white guys Yeah, whatces he going to pretend to be cool? made It made a great moment in the film. At the very beginning when she's giving that if when the sound isn't working. And it's like if we can't get someone up here To fix the sound, I'm not doing the show, which I think about a lot. I'm like I need extreme Amanda energy. Well, and then paves way for Beyonce, what is the point of giving more notes until I see my notes until I see my notes applied, you know, But this is it all started. Madonna was her d day. I found it very inspiring. I've been trying I've been trying to bring more of that into my life. How do you accomplish greatness Yeah, can't actually see that much live footage of women of any kind giving feedback. Sure. So where started. That's awesome. It's great. Also the thing Must are asked to make this thing and there's her mic cuts out. I will fucking burn this place down. Yeah. So that's at the beginning, but then there's the mic that cuts out during the show And they're just like, well, we don't have any answers. And she's like, but she just like why? why is this happening this way? She's not mean. She's just kind of direct. Yeah, keeps asking. I really appreciate it. The dancers are incredible. They' wonderful. They were cast, I think, specifically for their personalities. So you see that kind of shine through. This is one of the first I mean, this is a hallmark of Madonna's career in general. L we said it on the first episode, but she was the first person to distribute printed material about safe sex in relation to AIDs before the government, like a full year before the government. But like showing gayness in a film like this in this way where like not only was it shown, it wasn't point. Like it wasn't like, oh, we're making a big deal out of it. It's just peopleeople are gay and that's part of what happens in life was so major. and I know to a lot of young gay men who saw this, like really important Yeah, I think She was an incredibly inclusive performer who already, I think In some ways, very fortunately for her because she was so comfortable being confrontational, never worried about people saying like, oh, well, this is for these people or this is for that. Like she felt very comfortable bringing it in I think that, Both the safe sex and queer identity and itss relationship to Pop Stardom. She's like probably the central figure in that story from a pop culture perspective. and I think we're all the age too where all of those things We all felt like maybe more comfortable, I think we were scared out of doing a lot of things because of some the way things were communicated to us, but also we felt like very situated and more comfortable culturally around those ideas because there were these sort of avatars who were showing it in a way that had really not been shown in a cultural way at such scale in the seventies or even the early nineteen eighties. So you know, I don't know if she claims credit for something particularly, but she makes the world just a tiny little bit safer for some of this stuff because of the incredible platform that she had And and she just wouldn't be talked out of it. Another great scene is when I believe it's in Toronto where the police show up and are like we're going to arrest you if you perform re conversion with the masturbation. And she's told this by her brother and she's like, so what is that?? What are they going to do? They're gonna to like book me and she's like, how are we defining masturbation? And she's like taking it seriously, but also It's like you shouldn' have told me Like, I'm gonna do it. I don't care. I found that part really savvy too, because I think that's probably one of the parts that was a little more manufactured. But it's only thirty five years ago that it's like indecency laws in Canada are potentially threatening her ability to do a. There's still anti sodomy laws in like thirty states at this point, you know Yeah, it's also just no one's ever looked more beautiful in the history of the world than Mad Donalonna looks at this time in her career in this just one of the best. One of the like more controversial moments, but like now that I've seen it a couple of times, I feel like I've like come around to a different person is the part with her hairstylist Do you remember this part where she comes and says she was drugged Oh yeah yeah. And why is it tenroversse because she was raped and o Everyone kind of laughs Oh, it's like a very awkward Like Yeahah, but Madonna is like we need to figure out what'. Yeah it's like that initial reaction. Sure. then like It's so authentic because that's what it really is like when something like that happens. L it's not a TV after TV movie or whatever where like everyone suddenly like R It's call the police. It's got a rape kit. It's like nobody knows what to do with the information. So the more times I've watched it I've been like, wow, it's incredible they left that in because it is so real Anyway, it's just one of the greatest things that's ever existed I like it when all the moms come to visit. And take that When the dad who hadn't seen him we hadn't seen in like five years comes to visit, it's so nice Grereat book. trulyares. Iconic. Do you think it's her best movie? Yes. I was thinking about this last night when I was watching it. With her in the last night unfortunately. No, that's your loss. Well, I had a fourteen hour day at Disneyland, so, you know. Well ouris. I'm not dis respect for a film career like that and I'm gonna say no, because this is a documentary and she's had some great films Okay, let's find them. I'm gonna to say it Shadows and Fog. It's not this one. No. nineteen ninety one. Actually I had not seen this one, so I did watch it. I liked it It was fine. but when we started talking about blood Hounds of Broadway, I was like, wait, this isn't the W woody on She keeps doing this. Yeah U Not her best performance like She's in a tricky spot. barely even only couple of scenes, right? She's up against Malkovitich Malkovich really just the god Yeah. and It's like they don't have chemistry. She's trying to do another old fashioned thing. And he's doing his kind of like removed Malkovichch thing and I don't know it's He's doing people ever fuck like they didn. He's in a play. She's in the circus. I don't know what's happening there. Yeah. I mean, once again, Carneys, I sort of turned off. That's not your thing. Yeah, my thing Are you into carnivals? No, circuses Carnivent performers are fascinating people. Yeah, you know, I'm very interested. I love freaks Okay, so yes is the answ. Let me put it in the I don't like theatateright Alley Guamo Dl Toro. I've not seen it. Okay. You should check it out. I like it. Okay Is it about a monster who just wants to be loved? Yes but the monster is a carney played by Bradley Cooper. Yes, that's right. It's a remake of a nineteen forty six. Yeah. o. Is he like the ugly man or something No, he's handsome. They let him stay handsome, right sort of Well, but you's in an are it's over time. Exactly. I'll check it out. He's like a what's the word? notot a medium, but a malist.alist other than things ticks. State Planchett has a very beautiful art deeco office Okay. I think it's a wonderful movie Yeah. I think it's I think you're right. now that you've made me I do like Carn. better than this woody f. than F I I agree with that. This is a very small little I could see the appeal of just she wants to be in a woody Allen. Yeah. And this it's just like a woody Allen thing where he's just like, I'm going to make a couple of jokes and put my than wife in it, you know, like I love seeing Jon Kzak. It it wass a fun artifact for me but I wasn't like, o this is Mon B in most. Okay What about a League of their own? though nineteen ninety two, Maybe this is her best mov.. I think this might be her best movie. It's definitely her best performance and the best integration of Madonna into a movie. She actually No question. has a real character. She gets to be herself. She gets to be funny and because it's set during World War twowo, it is kind of like that throwback throwback Right You know, oldld Hollywood era She is very funny. She has great chemistry with Rosie O'Donnell Are they does this start the friend? Yeah Should they meet? That's so beautiful. She's dating vanilla Iice at the time. Just a fun. Oh Okaykay, Well, you know Rob in Winkle famamously featured in the sext book. Yeah, that's why because they were dating I along with Big Daddy Cane They were not doing any but he Its hard to not be in love with her in this movie. I mean she's the best. Mae is the best Also I remember seeing this movie in theaters with my mom and me being like, M, come come on. You know she was she' so good. She catches it. still Your mom was still carrying the hatred in nineteen ninety two. It was never let it go forever. I remember sitting on the couch watching Grammy performances to her and her being like, Oh funny This is really good and I feel like the I feel like her befriending Rosie weirdly helps her performance. like she just is really comfortable in this movie in a way that she doesn't often feel comfortable They have chemistry. Yeah. She doesn't have chemistry with many other people on screen, including some husbands and, you know, current boyfriend. I wonder what if it's the thing of likeike I think to be a good actor and I don't know anything about because I don't act, but like You you can't be a perfectionist You have to be messy and loose and vulnerable. And I just don't think that's T orientation towards the world. She is an achiever and a perfectionist. And I think that might kind of stand in the way of be a great actress, you know, because she does have a lot of the like other parts that you would think you know, she has the charisma, she has the star power, you love lookingin her on screen. but she's just missing that thing where you have to, I believe, like just completely let go And here it's different because when you're yourself, you kind of can let go, right? Because you're kind of being yourself And her best performances are when she's able to play a character that is very similar to herself which is not Carol M. It is M morbeta or it is Aida, which we'll get into later That's interesting. She, I mean She only worked with two women, two fale filmmakers over care. This is the second of the two Yeah. And this is really the only, I mean, she mostly working with women. Yes. It's really the only time., by the way, Gina Davis Can you even believe people look like that? I know. She She had sort original Instagram face before we even had Instagram face. It's like modeled on her. What do you mean by that? It's just like so the lips, like everything, what do you mean you don't know about Instagram face? Am I really exing to you? Just like give me the specific details that define Instagram face? Yeah, it's like really full lips, high cheek bones, like sort of like lifted eyebrows. Yeah like a sculpted seamless plain face where You can never achieve what she has because you can never is make it look natural. desirable According to Instagram and then thus the plastic surgeons who receive people asking for Instagram. It'ort like Kim Kardashian minted thing I had to if I had to pin it back to a patient's ear. Kim Kardashian and Instagram. computer filters, you know, that that smooth everything out Also like contouring Do you know about contouring in makeup to give you the you know, the rates Some places you want shadows and some places should a little contouring later or I't missed it with me So I need. Anyway, this is just an absolute stunter. someome of the funniest things in my young childhood were from this movie when May Morido was like What if like when the camera comes out All of a sudden My jersey pops open and my bosoms come out. don of those characters is like, I think there's a man in America who ain't seen your bosoms. Also the John Lovitt's character just perfect. Every minute he's on screen, I'm like crying laughing. O she's teaching What's the the teammate to read on the bus, but with the romance novel, M funny. Mil key wide. Are you teaching her m? Don't wor about it. She's learning. She's very supportive And also the end, I just weep every day. listen, the older version I' ever seen my playground, you know, the final needle drop, right It's a wonderful Jimmy Duggan Tomings, what a guy? Yeah, really Really again Always always a delight It's so funny like what comes after this in her career because she really does not take the note that everybody was like,'s Madonna was so winning in this film. Like she got great reviews. You know, she's part of this big ensemble t She finally figured out the movie with the right tone for her, right? whichich is kind of what I was saying before, which is like This movie is a drama that has really great comic moments and very memorable comedy And she fits right in It's never weird that Madonna is on this team, that she's like amongst these people. She's not. No one is more famous than the other in the scenes And then she never makes a movie even close than this ever again. I don't know that she was allowed. So where is she what's ninety two? Okay, ninety two is incredibly important. Okay, but at this point, so like her prayerers out, she's been chastised L Vogue has come out because if you'll remember, Vogue was actually from Dick Tracey. Nobody really rem Vogue was They made it and it was so amazing. It was supposed to be a B side of a single, but it was so good and they had to put it somewhere so it could exist in the world and they put it as one of her original songs on Dick Tracy, but it's a huge hit. The Imaculate Cection has come out. That's a huge hit. This seems to be a playingg aroundround. and then Eerotica and the sext book. Okay, which completely changes the course of the public's perception of Mad. This is the thing. It's july first ninety two for this used to be my playground. for a Lague of their own and this used to be my playground. And then it's October for Eerotica. swit And then she turns the paradigm. And then she's like the most hated woman in America. like she is. How much of this is so manufactured though. It was such like daytime talk show, bullshit. Yeah, you know. Yeah, but it had real implications. I mean she lost like a chunk of her American fanbase. It had like monetary implications I don't want to eg too much, but it's like it' part of that just becausecause Eerodica iss not as good like Eerotica is amazing. but will it is not is not the pop bonanza that any of thoseiouss it'st, But it's art. It's actually, if you look that's not the same And it's been re evaluated like You know what I'm saying though?ure.' not doesn't it didn't appeal to the bass It's not as I shouldn't say the base. It didn't appeal to like the wider public in the way that the previous albums didure But like, I just feel like I get really I get really heated about this because Erotica is such a good album Again, it doesn't, it's not as like legible on the pop radio scale. But it's an incredible work of. This is just the challenge though of being a pop star. She's being measured against all the big hits that she had previous to this. And I mean, there are obviously come after this that have huge hits on it. Yeah. This is the one though, where like it gets real quiet for a minute because people don't love these songs as much. I mean, deeper and deeper was a pretty big hit Yeah, but I'm looking at the tracklist now. I'm ten years old. Yeah. Rain was pretty big. No, I'm eight years old. Went to see League of their own in theaters I know everything from the eighties, like Immaculate collection has been handed down even though you know, the pope and everyone is like tk tisk and I don't, I'm not jamming out to these age eight or nine, which is which is not to say that they are good or that they are What you're saying total sense. it's not like a prayer. And not express yourself Well And it just is also, you know, a Lague of their own is a huge, huge hit and just very mainstream pop star to like everyone in the world knows who Madonna is And she doesn't double down on that level of mainstream stream radio pop. She goes in a totally just like is very qu I st her forever. I guess like The thing that is so interesting to me is like, if it was just the album was mid or whatever youron as pop, she would have been ignored That's what happens to pop stars. They get ignored. Yeah. She was vilified and it was because of the sex book. It It was a one two punch. If Eerotica could come out and there's no sex book, nothing would have really happened. That was the She would have made another album and it would have been fine. She was like public enemy number. I think what I was thinking about when you first said that though was if Eerotica had like a papa don't preach on it. It would have been different because it would have been like you have a chart topping song, but you' stoking controversy with the sex book and you just come up It's just one of those things like the album is just like one song short where it put her in a very vulnerable position to the point about losing some of the. She just never would have had a song like that because it's not the orientation of the album. Like she went in a completely different direction. Honestly like the leap between like a prayer and erotica is so insane. Credit to her for taking an artistic chance. That's not really what I'm trying to say And I just shouldn't have said not as good. It's more like, no, I get what you're saying. It kind of jeopardized her centrality as a pop star by making an artistic choice which is a good thing for her what she does overight times over. Yeah. It could have happened with like a you know, like or like a virgin as well. you know, just is also it is it's the first time that she does that. And so it is just like a turning point For the first decade that we've been talking about now, like Madonna is just Madonna and Michael Jackson are the pop stars And like she Mich Jack all the time faded away, obviously at this point. sort of yeah, please, you know no, but Langerous is ninety one. Dangerous is ninety one, but it yeah yeah it has hits, but it's it's not quite as like Yeah And then after that, what happens after that? I mean, remember the time was on TV and Non stop. Wonderful song. Nonstop. In ninety two. he was still big but it was It's interesting that they both go into a little bit of a lull in this time. And Prince is in a little bit of a lull. Springsteen's in a little bit of a lull. A lot of these icons of the previous seven, eighty nine years Because what happened in ninety two. Rock and roll, babe Yeah. Gr and Nirvana comes around. Yeah That's what it is. But so I do feel like we think of reinvention when we think of Madonna and like now she's trying this and now she's trying this. And but this is the first reinvention, right? Like this is the Well, I mean, she's obviously doing slightly different things and doing costumes and characters The first reinvention, I would say would be Papa D't preach because it's the first time where she's doing like subject matter that is not frivolous And she has a new look and stuff. So that's like really the technical first one. And then like a prayer is the second one where she's brunette and she's playing with you know this is probably the third one. Yeah. But I mean, like now when I think of like the Madas that I know. Yeah. Sure. like there are lots of visual references, but I'm like there's, you know, mega pop star Madonna, then there's sextbook Madonna, then there's Kabala, Madonna. I don't really know where that comes in along with moves to London It has a British accent. Yeah. Madonna But you know, there's the there's sampling Aa, Madonna like you can think of all kind of the fourth. R. There are different phases of her life. and this feels like a new phace. It's funny because I think of yes, I think you're totally right. And I think it's I mean, and you know, maybe that's just what I'm paying attention to and what Im metabolized. I think there was multiple changes between the eighties and nineties, it's just maybe we were a bit young to clock them perfectly. But this is a huge deal As it has to stand with her films, it's a huge deal because She thinks of things grand scale. You know, every part of what she's doing is always connected to everything three hundred and sixty degree. three hundred and sixty degardes. So like, you're putting out Eerotica Pting out the textbook and of course you're doing body of evidence Of course you are. that fits perfectly in with what you're doing. And I'm going to say something, body of evidence is a good movie You guys are wrong. Not you guys that The royal you guys. It's really not It's really nice. G ahe. Well, I didn't revisit it for this, but I did watch it. I think for the first time. In was that twenty twenty or twenty No, it was twenty twenty. Yeah when the big picture in the depths of COVID. not even I think it was the summer of twenty twenty We did an erotic thrillers episode. And there wasn't much else to do. so I did spend a lot of time watching erotic thrillers at, you know, not what I consider to be erotic thriller hours of the day. Again, it was COVID. we weren't going outside very much broadw. Yes. Body of evidence at like two PM is when my husband walked into the room and was like, what's going on here?? And this is this appropriate? And I was like, it's only you and me here. There were no children was professional. I had no children this appropriate? itropriate? I don't think I think he was more just like, could I also be a part of this? But it is It's bracync and they it's a real they go for it. they do go for it and are they going for it on the same team? Is there any exploitation? Is there I, you know, I'm her ts look great. And there is a little bit of like you gota do it and put it on film while you still have it The only person I I agree. I don't think Madonna was exploited. I don't think Maybe Julianne M because I know she's come out and said that she didn't feel that that her nude scene was like necessary and it was like sort of gratuitous I think Madonna is like fully in. I don't know if I'm the most I'm the right person to speak about all of this stuff. The thing about this movie is it's coming in this like really in the wake of basic instinct and basic inststinct you've got Dutch filmaker Pul Ver Hovan who comes to America after you know making a handful of films in Europe that have all these transgressive qualities and he makes roboc cop and he makes total recall and he makes basic instinct, and he's kind of throwing in America's face all of these kind of grriiszly sexual violent ideas that are right on the surface of our culture and kind of almost like making fun of us in real time. And in basic instinct, there's a sort of like male panic about the woman who will take everything from you who will, you know you know, suck you dry and then stab you in the chest And that movie is a huge hit and it's also like a really interesting work of art and it launches Sharon Stone into the stratosphere. And then six months later You get Madonna hand picking Uuladell, who's made like Christian F. Yeah and incredible director. L Last exeit of Brooklyn, like really good films. like really more of like an art house filmmaker for lack of a better word and trying to apply the lessons of the erotic thriller boom and To me, the script is just not good And the script's a little wooden, but I kind of like I just feel like this is a bit camp. whichich is why I like it. You know, L I think feel like through the lens of a bit of camp It's kind of I don't think that was what how it was intended at the time though. like and it was really pillarated at the time. aggree that Madonna is so hot in this movie. it was really mind blowing for me to see this as a teenager, like honestly mind blowing. Her performance is really good. It's okay. I just think when you when you get the reveal of the character at the end, I don't want to spoil for anyone who's hasn't much body of evidence I feel like once the character was revealed and the twist, I was like, oh wow, now every acting choice made a lot of sense to me I think that she does this thing over and over again in her career where Well let's say think who's that girl as an example. Opposite Griffin Dun, she's pretty good because he's a fairly light actor. Yeah. You know he leans on comic mannerism. And so when she wants to do that, they feel comfortable. But in her serious dramatic works You know, she's going opposite John Malkovich and Sean Penn and in this film Willam Defoe Yeah. like these really weighty intense masculine powerhouses and She's just not as skilled an actor as they are. And like you can really see some of the vulnerabilities in her work when she's up against these figures. But when she's up against somebody, you know, in Dick Tracy, it works a little bit better because the tone of that movie and the performance style that everyone's doing is a little bit lighter. So I feel like she suffers because of that. I thought was okay because I thought like her whole The whole problem, if you will, with her acting performanceces is it's a little inscrutable. But then once I realized, I was like, oh, it makes sense for this character to be insscrutable. I don't know if that was a choice, but whatever it is, it worked for me I just the only weird part about this movie is why is it in Portland? None of these people live in Portland. question. None people have ever lived in Portland. What are you talking about? That' really a question. This't, this doesn't happen. And also I love Joe Montaga Joe Montaga for president The ending is wonderful. That last time. I remember when was William Defoe is like you should have convicted her and Will or Joie Mitano goes I did as they're wheeling her body, her lifeless body out of the houseboat.ry spoiler. Damn. We' see like a dramatic fall from a through the pl glass. She kill Yes. she's like shot at by the doctor that she conspired with. in order to like win the case. Right about how she like kill the rich guy she was aiding. I'm just going to take a moment do a dramatic reading . have my friend Patrick Sandberg's letterbox review of this, becauseuse feel like he cook it more eloquently He said everyone was wrong about this movie. Madonna's performance is perfectly calibrated and compulsively watchable. The sex scenes have a performative, outraay quality that makes sense within the context of the film's central erotic mystery. And it all comes across unusually chic due to U Adel's directing, which is utterly phenomenal and drenched with noir references while maintaining a viseral grit This is a much better shot film than Jagged Edge, for example, which commits many of the same supposed sins, but in a less cinematic approach. Back in the old days, the term Vanity project used to be thrown around as an insult against films that were financed by Starr's involvement for their own personal careerist reasons It's funny how that now becomes the de facto business model for filmmaking across the entire spectrum of financing. becausecause it's a good thing. People with taste, artists should be making the decisions. The fact that Madonna wanted to make an erotic legal thriller in the basic instinct and selected the director behind Christianeff and actors like Williem Dafoe, Julianne Moore and Frank Langela, not to mention full metal jacket cinematographer Doug Milsam to do it with is fucking cool Could the script have been better? Yes. Sh they have shot in Seattle instead of Portland? without question. But is it a nasty, fabulous, enthralling pop artifact? It's museum worthy. Apologize now And I stand behind that. That's how I feel. I like the house in Jagged Edge better, not that anyone asks me, but it's a really good house I'm going to go say what I said before about every one of these Mon films It is unfairly criticized Fine, is it Is it? Bet than Siver? Yes. too me, you know, like And no one was like, Siver is the worst movie I've ever seen in my life should be buried in the ground and never thought about be again. These movies very quickly went from being like, Isn't this so exciting that it's happening to like these are all getting picked on and punished publicly. And a lot of it was coded in like middle aged white male critics who didn't necessarily understand Some of the creative choices that were being made. too me, the movie is like, it's witness for the prosecion but what if Marlina Dietrer got naked in the movie? And which is idea also at this point in Madadonna's career, you know, like I am glad that Eeratica in the sex book my God look immortalized like on cinema, that that is art. herer body.'s a gift actually art in this in this particular and it says no, I agree. Sort of interesting movie I did not see it. I'm sorry not to handed, but that's I don't know. That's one of the hottest S sex I find sex scenes in movies Lame and awful, ninety nine percent of time. I'm like noobbody does it like that. I'm bored. I'm going to get some popcorn I was riveted. I was like edge of my seat. I was like, this is actually really cool. I vividly remember rewatching it with Eileen during COVID for that episode that Amanda described and we were just laughing at the. We're having fun. We had fun. Itllows it when Julilliana was like, What is that hurt your chest? Who did that dude? What is that? It's really good. Yeah Okay, well greatreeer disagree. Uh I'm glad you're caping for it I really enjoy I just genuinely enjoyed it also enjoy maybe like I do own it on four K for the rest. Yeah, of course. I'm not. So my litmus test for that your film is good or not is did I enjoy it or not? I feel An orur is in this. Yeah other one of my gals. They know. interestnteresting. I find her completely forgettable. Dangerous Game, nineteen ninety three. Yeah. So I was thinking about this when you were describing some of the challenges that she had on Dick Tracy because this feels like she took this part too channel some of these. Yeah ye, rightight? Yeah. This is a fucking amazing film Yeah a second. It takes I had to metabolize it. It's a middle for me with Ael Far. I'm obsessed Abel Far, the filmmaker. and this is one of his collaborations with Nicolas Stain. John the screenwriter, and like pretty much every movie they made together to me is like Four or five stars. like I really love Aafarars movies. This movie is a little rough and It's a little Jagged. story wise, more so even than some of the like crime movies that that Ferrara made. Yeah, you can you really see the pieces creaking around in this one. It's not as like It's not as tight as the other fr movies, but it's a really interesting Madonna movie. I think she's really good she's greatay in that And I guess it is because to your pr she's borrowing a little bit from real experiences And then the The movie within a movie and the meta quality of it. probably helps her feel more comfortable or more natural in the setting and also then makes her performance just read more naturally because they're like kind of layers to the consciousness of what you're watching. I think she's good in it. I think it's a credit to Ael Fara who like is such an unusual filmmaker and I think definitely did entire like context and scenarios that pushed her to have to access parts of herself that she couldn't before I mean, there's that scene where Kaitel is trying to direct her into that performance and making her repeat her lines over and over again. whichich is like you can see Ferrara doing that to her through him. What does he call her like like a commercial actress? Yes, Yes. You stupid commercial. Also James Russo was one of Sean Penn's best friends So like to put your ex husband's best friend opposite you as your lo. It's crazy. There's a scene where he cuts her hair, which obviously very clearly a wig, but that was like, reported thing that had happened within Sean Penn and Madonna's relationship in one of their last fights is that he had threatened to cut her hair. And it's like putting that in. it's like I don't know. When I first sat after I watched it I was like, o, I didn't like I don't like those so what? And then I Like was like, let's just sit and think about it. and then I was like, Ohh actually, this is absolutely a work of genius feel like kind of meta commentary on Hollywood, the meta commentary on like what it is to make a film. I had never seen this and liked it So ye Yeah, it's a cool movie. It comes right in the middle of like It some extreme formative movies for me.ers. It's Bad Lieutenant O King of New York bad liieutenant body snatchers dangerous game the addiction, the funeral That was when I was really getting turned on to like New York Cime movies.. Tarantino was a huge, huge for our fan and cited him all the time. We eventually did King of New York on the reewatchables with Quintin And this was always the one that was like a little bit of the outlier. Like it was not like guuy with a gun movie. It was a different kind of a thing. Women's interests always get pushed to the back where. Well, I don't know if I would say this is a women's interest movies. It's like being a maniac film director. Yeah Okay You know the wife character is actually Ail Far' wife. Oh, that's his actual wife. I didn't know that. more then now. Then Yeah. But that's also so interesting. Yeah. Also what a time where Harvey Kitel with that haircut could be considered like a hot leading man Ag a different time bad liieutenant, he had a unique energy He's aultureircut. has a hairut. But I loved it. Unfortunately, again, there was the ill will towards Madonna was like at an insane peak and this or was basically not seen and then buried And I guess Abelfar blamed Mononna for that. Not the most commercial of filmmakers in general, though. No, yeah, It's not like it was gonna to have like a blockbuster.ose in a league of their own. Yeah I don't think Madonna thought it was good actually. In the end. she's kind of been quoted saying that I think it's some of her strongest acting.. I know I agree. But she said that he turned it into bad the bad director, which is not untrue. But she doesn't really seem to be interested in doing naturalistic like personal work she wants to be highly stylized. so you know kind of is both in this film. She has highly stylized moments where she's playing the actress character It's like, she looks cool. She's wearing glasses, she's smoking cigs,. And then she's also Oh yeah, the su thank you about the bar scene. I definitely spend a while reverse image searching the exact sunglasses that she's wearing in the find them U if you guys are listening. Yeah, if anyone can source those from thirty three years ago sure. And not very well how long the raay band's been made been they could still be out there. I don't think they're ra b. Maybe they're I'm just saying there's enduring. They they can be sourced I didn't see blue in the face so if anyone has anything to add I've seen it four Wayne Wong movie P part of this like Duopolly movie she made the smoke about people coming into a smoke shop and just shooting the breeze. She's in a super short, like super quick moment. Yeah, her came me out. She's a sing telegram girl. so back to the M I see It's kind of cool that she decided to chip in on this. It a lot there's a lot of cameos and kind of like a lot of small parts throughout the film Just what you just said, important to think about. throughout Madonna could have made a lot of different movies She chooses really interesting projects. She pretty much only does cameos for this three year stretch, you know, These like small parts. Well, she was completely devastated and like kneecapped by how people reacted to Eerotica and this sex but She's talked about it. It took the wind out of herself. L it really made her Like it devastated her. It was horrible for her So I think she kind of lost a bit of confidence and wasn't like kind trying to also have like ten more bad. Can can I ask a question you're not supposed to ask especially Yeah when talking about women, but I'm just interested in at this time. Yeah thirty eight Yeah. okay for thirty like thirty five, thirty.ion up to a tricky time, right? Well, Yeahah, it's certainly like in a pop stars in life ninet two she was Yeah. ninety two she was thirty four. So she was still, you know, pretty young. Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. But yes, of course. And also Don't forget like, but you can also sense her doing all this stuff, doing body of evidence, doing the sext book doing erotica is like, I may never look this good again. Yeah You there's something about just like, let me just radiate at my highest power. I don't know if it was like' like the thought of I M never look this good again. I think it's like a kind of a known thing that like women come into their sexual power and primidee talked about that, actually. Wasn't that part of the pitch for the book I think so. Yeah. I mean even the first looks like's like a ch thing.ike I think men hit their sexual prime like eighteen and women hit at like thirty five, you know? Yeah. She. So she is She's really peein. I love four rooms. fourour rooms in nineteen eighty five. Really an artifact of my youth. I saw you log this on letterbox. This is something you love. I love it because I was there. I was there when it happened. Listen, it is obviously uneven and weird or whatever I love that you just movies like this back then, like you would just be like, wow, I want to W something fun and weird and it's four short films united by Tim Roth being an absolute face actor to the Max as this insane bellhop And you get these like four different directors like having the best time of their life, making some weird little short and it has like huge stars in it. It it's fun, you know. We used to be a country. Yeah. hate short stories? I do. Ag. And I watched this and my response was, I like I like y you like when people try things. This is not what I would have tried with my budget and time. And even I dont Alexander Rockwell's I found like so bizarre. like his which I watched back then, but I was like, I don't know what's happening here I think that this is aase where the accepted wisdom is a right wisom, which is the man from Hollywood, Tarantino segment, the last segment in the movie is a lot of fun. It's basically a remake of a TV show.. You know, it's got Bruce Willis in it. It's got a really funny story. It's really brief Everything else I love Alice Anders. the part of the Madonna is. I think it's like it's fun. It's fun. and it's like it it's really visually arresting. I think you have all these like incredible starletts of their time looking so beautiful. And it's like a funny cute little witchcraft story that has like a lot of sexual innuendo that you almost would think a man would have made, but a woman made it Mad Donald looks fucking incredible in that does latex dress. Yeah, I saw this in theaters. like if you if you were same in on the Sundance wave, like it was a huge deal. I was like, Oh, Mirror Max, I'm my web What you got from me, Mr. Weinstein. But it bombed. I mean it bricked. I mean, you could see. Also nobody wants to see short. pereriod, you know, Yeah. I enjoyed it. I have a great affection for it and I love Timbermer I would follow Tim Roth to the moon. What a great actor This was Mirramax's big Christmas release of ninet was funny. They were like, hereere you go, takeake your family. Yeah. The ending. makes I think the whole thing wor. Yeah. Yeah. that last moment and his little likeoo dancing out of the thing S Singen girl S six in twenty years And I got and watch it last night because I have my ways. This is one of the best movies that ever made in the history of movies. it's pretty strong statement. It is, yeah. I haven't seen it in a long time. So Betterman. Is that what the Robbie Williams movie? That's number one. Girl six, number two. Girl six And Testament of Andley. And what was the allgrzia?r I would' put that in my hotrost. hotrostas. Th these are only the ones I've been allowed to talk about on the big picture, but I have various I would say invited to about they're not allowed to talk about. I love the before trilogy and there's a lot of movies in. Okay. Clics I remember being fun. It's an odd movie for Spike Lee to have made. Well, this is why I find it so interesting. I love I realized that when I saw it originally, I wasn't old enough. for it to it me properly. I would recommend watching it again, Amanda. It's like actually such an incredible meditation on what it is to be sexualized as a woman and what it is to like exist in the patriarchy, sorry for putting on the pink pussy hat. It's phenomenal. Like and the fact that Spike Lee did it so deftly. I mean, he didn't write it, but A woman wrote it Oh it' Susan La Park. T Dogg underdog and yeah famous playwright I think we watch if you haven't seen it because it's He does something really special and he's able like I walked away from him feeling really like, wow, like this was like profound So And it's fun. It's both. Like he does it both and it has obviously like wall to wall prince music. It's visually incredible. L the outfits, the colors, like the saturation of the colors.'s like Disneyland, Naomi Campbell in those moie Debbie Mazars in. Obviously Madonna cameameo. Pro like a repeat Campel. Yeah. she goes time twice and she looks great This is one of the most frustrating unavailable and physical media movies of all time.. Like it's only available on DVD it's five hundred dollars on eBay to buy on DVD. And you're about that life. I think about that life. The only spike movie all the way up toil like he starts doing the streaming movie is that you can't really find it It's notly the training the pr's music and the music. ye. It's ironic because the Madonna scenes in the movie, there's a moment where Madonna is like talking to Theereresa Randall over a print song that is like Spike Prince Madonna meeting and it's like these kind of iconic figures this decade of our lives intersecting in one little two minute period of the movie that is so cool. I remember liking the movie. don' I probably just need to rewatch it. Yeah. I don't know againain I don't wantan a pink psy hat, but it might be like a wom like more impactful if you're a woman It's just there's something really special about way and it's so light touch. It's not so heavy handed as often these stories are, you know? It's satirical. It' Well, or it's like a black comedy. Yeah. It's a dark comedy and it's yeah, it's just like it's's not too po faced about exactly. Yeah. And the actress, Trsa Randall is incredible. She's terrific in the movie. Yeah. John has a lot of really funny little people in it. likeike Michael Mperiolia iss in it. Hall Berry. Halle Berry as herself Its wonderful. Anywways, Madonna has a very small part in it, but she's great. She's good. I rewatch. It's very in that era too because she's playing a mistress, you know Yeah I wish she is funny and yeah This is now we're getting to the really momentous thing where I'm gonna to need you guys Okay I did not rewatch Evita. I did. I will never rewatch Evita. S it with love and respect. I did rewatch it. And you had never, you had not seen it. And you and Sean and I both remember going to the theaters to see this. It was a cinematic and pop cultural event. was I went on a school trip to see this movie when I was in high school. So you answered my question. you had to And you were like, I love musicals Tottally love musicals, but I was Well, right. And I And it was Madonna. And so getting to go to the movies was just you know, a treat. And it was also Despite the backlash after Eerotica and the sex book, like Madonna was still Madonna and this was like a big Christmas movie in nineteen ninety six. We were both Oscar nerds and reading Entertertainment Weekly at this point. was It was a thing. It was a moment. By ninety five, she's put out something to remember, which if you guys remember at all, it's the compilation of all her ballads. That's a huge hit. has a new song on it Take a bow. Oh, sure sure. Big, big h. Yeah big h huge. So this is this is like the rehabilitation of Madonna in the eyes of the she she's she she has not It's her very purposeully classing herself. Not in a cl Yeah, but reminding people like I'm still America's, you know, pop star. L I still have I'm not just like the woman with her vagina out in this se book. like don't forget, you know? And yeah, she's rehabilitating. So that's ninety five. And I will do that by playing an Argentinian woman by yeah, by playing a film where I don't get naked and it's a really dramatic high, you know I don't know, high what value, high high touch. I have no idea. I did not enjoy this movie. I But I also famously hate musicals, so it's like really difficult for me to. I'd like to interrogate what was going on with Andrew Lloyd Weber, which I feel like every time Every time I watch a movie adaptation Andrew Lloyd Weber film I'm like this or musical. I'm like, this film isn' it very good, but also What were you what were you on? And his this started? Wh why did we need to make like a concept album, which is how this started about the life of Ava Perone I think he's a very eccentric artist. I also do not like his film adaptations except for Jesus Christ Superstar, which I think is really cool. Yeah. But I think like Jesus Christ Superstar, another good example of his eccentricities as a writer. It's also, you know, Tim Rice wrote it with him, Tim Rice coming off of I think he had just come off of the Lion King at this point one. And one It's directed by Alan Parker who you know, started out like Pink Floyd's the Wall, but has become the sort of more haallllowed Oscar type figure with stuff like Mississippi burning in the eighties And It's a weird mishmash of a lot of different kind of competing, very strong figures all working. The script is co written by Parker and Oliver Stone, who of course is well known for his films of Revolution. My name is just And also parachuting to South America or Central America.' not inserting his own opinions. That's right. It's something he does. Sean Pen and H should get together on a trip. They do. They did Here's my thing I don't know whose decision this was or who's like inflexibility it was that was like There will be no talking Every piece of understanding in this film will be through songs Yes No, thank you for me. I need a little more connective tissue I'm sorry, I'm not an Argentinian history scholar. I had to look at Wikipedia the entire time. I actually think Andrelaid Weber kudos to you Eva Prone's a fascinating figure. It's a cool story. I get why you were like interested in it. I totally get why Madonna was interested If you look at Madonna's understanding of her own life path And E a Prone's life path, there's a lot of similarities. L came from nothing used your feminine wes and your looks and your skills to ascend to another level. were demonized for being just a entertainer. you know, she I think she saw a lot and she's for her whole life been how whatever you want to say about it philanthropist. I mean, she has she's raised more money for AMFar, I think than anyone during the eighties or whatever. She's always been like interested in the well being of the world in whatever ways she was. I could see why she'd want to do it I just don't understand why we can't know what's going on in the movie with more dialogue. Right. you don't respond to Antonio Beneris narrating through the the lens of the E manan. I This is what Andrew Lod Weber does this. He does su he does sung through musicals. Cats is this Jesus Christ superstar is popular film You know, Miss Ligon never adapted, the Phantom of the Opera. Th are all s m They don't have dialogpera. But the phantom of the opera is like esoteric. Like you don't really need to know what's going on. you feel your way through it. But this is a history. story. I have seen at least three, maybe four Andrel Lloyd Weber musicals staged And there are these like kind of set piece dominated, kind of sweeping chaotic grandelquent stories, right? And so you'd think that they would pred over nicely to cinema, but because of the suong through style, it feel something feels very unnatural. Grandaloquent a word or did you just make That is words. I love that. Thank you. Can I use that It belongs to the English language. so dig in. And so yeah, I mean, I agree with Amanda. I feel like they very rarely translate to something. This movie iss not as kooky as I find some of his other adaptations. like cats is just weird. Yeah. which well, it's about talking cats Sure. which which I do ultimately think is is part of the problem because this is an adaptation that is taking persons. Well It's situated in real political environment. It's suated in real world. And so when they are recreating it, I mean, I was amazed at rewatching it at just, you know how many real people there were in the crowd scenes because you know now You know, my kingdom for one crowd scene filled with real people instead of AI. And have not figured that out. It was very moving. But there's parts that are just so moving where you're like she is the people are crying and responding to this figure and like also it mimics a pop star. Yeah. I mean, that' toally scr deconstruction of fame. But just like the production value and the recreation of this era of Artisa and her costumes is beautiful. But some who's shop by there is conj. Exactly. So it looks good and real world But when you've taken that out of the theater and the kind of fantastical sitting of we're all on this adventure together. and so you're recreating events much like you would at like historical epic U you know and we did see this. This was released like at Oscar season in the nineties and we, you know, so you're expecting something. And then Antonio Banderres is just switching into rock opera, narrating the political situation in Argentina And It is it is so Still not silly, but fantastic.. And it feels a little camp. Yeah. ye, it feels camp. And so there's a mismatch of tones And I think that she's not bad in it. And I' gonna ask youres me Argentina with her doing this and the hair was very, very important to me. And were you telling me that Rachel Zegler is doing this now in London? Yeah. and I think is She She just won the Oliver. Yeah, yeah. And I think it's comingakes sense, I think. because you also I feel like the challenge with the movie is, I think she sings well in this movie, but it's a it feels like it's written for a belter And Madonna is not a belter. She's not a to the raaper singer. Did You know, and the fandom has a lot of opinions about it, but she underwent intense vocal training for this and it kind of permanently changed her voice. All the albums that come after this have a new Madonna voice Okay what's different about it? It's just bigger. It's like she's able to access more it's again yes, she's not like you know, Patty Lapone. know She's never going to be Patty Lapone. That's yeah's on Broadway in sear nine. Yeah. But you know, I think Tim Rice said that they wanted her because she's a brilliant interpreter of song. and I will say her best acting to me is in her own songs That's what makes Madonna's music so compelling to me is that when she's singing her own lyrics, you really feel the character and the story in it. She is able to bring that. And I can see what Tim Rice meant. was like, I need someone who can interpret song. in a dramatic way becausecause that is the whole story. I thought was I thought she was really good. It's not bad. There's just something a little bit. I don't know how to judge how good a person is in a musical so As like an actor. That's like a little difficult for me again, as someone who doesn't really understand musical. It's definitively not a fiasco, which it could have been. R performed well, right? did well Do You w want a golden globe? Yeah Oh, yeah, back. conongratulations on. Well you know what? Jennifer Lope has never w won oneon. And she was upset about it. She Glen Close and Frances McNormand and Debbie Reynolds. And Barbara Streisand. That was the lineup right here It's K kind of impressive. Sure. Yeah. Do she be Dbbie Reynolds for her mother? Yeah, and Frances Norman performance? Bar a go Yeah. that's Is she like poser for that Fran was McDonand did, yeah Yeah, whichich Madonna was her first of three. How many Oscars does Madonna have? Do Well Does she even does she have one for a song? a song? W you must loveve me? It didn't wear you must love me. It was not donated to be her Oscar anyways. I think it did win, but It did win but she didn't write it so she doesn't get the Oscars. She just nominated for an Oscar.. Wow. She has performed at the Oscars twice. Yeah. She performed sooner or later to Tracy and you must love. And you must love. bothoth of which are not her songs. I think sooner or later might have also won. I'm happy that I think she got to have Did the costumes win for A Vita? The costumes serve Oh, they were really great. I think it I think it only won that Oscar Okay Five nominations total. One one for You Must loveove mee was not nominated for costume but was nominated for art direction and cinematography great This is the end, I think of Madonna movie star. She appears in movies after this. She makes more movies But weirdly, even though she did pretty well in this movie, she won a Golden Globe. Yeah, people went out and saw the movie. you can people you can still remember I don't cry for me, right? Like as a moment reallyally understand or like at least get a whiff of her psychology from this because Madonna's an achiever. So like, She achieved it. I think in her estimation, I don't want to psychoanalyze the person I don't know, but like I can looking back from the arc Okay, you made a movie that was unquestionably good. You w want an award for your performance and everyone said you were good, you know? And it's like, okay, also she's, you know, she's Pushing on forty five now I don't know if you know about Hollywood Yeah, she just doesn't have her purple rain, she doesn't have her, a star is born. She she's just missing She's made some good, really good movies. But she's missing that one iconic movie that when you think Madonna and the movies That's supp say truth are there. Yeah, which is but that's really just Or maybe Sth's really seeking Susan Even though she's not the main She kind of You know what I mean, though Yeah. Like like Beyonce doesn't have Z though, Beyonce tried right with Dream Girls and Aome powers. I think Beyonce and Madonna have a very similar thing, which is, again, they' perfectionist achievers. That is not the same being That's the thing with Purple Rign is it's just the best parts of Purple Rign are him performing on stage, but they like make the movie something Iiconic and unforgettable And I don't know if she could have pulled that off. I mean, she does have it with Tuth Thdare where she's performing in that movie and you get that. But I think just I think if things had played out differently may with different collaborators or different like, you know, situations. Also, you know, she's quite busy. like it's true during that time. It's like she's just making movies. She going on like six month world tours or whatever I was unable to watch the next bestest thing because it is for whatever reason, completely unavailable anywhere to watch. And Sean was at Disneyland and couldn't loan me have it on. Yeah. But you didn't rewatch it. I didn't rewatch it. I saw it. I might have even seen it in theaters. It's direct by John Sllesinger. who been a cowboy, which is like fascinating that they, and you know, I'll tell you one of the reasons why they enisted. this's obviously a story to your point about gay men and g gay friendship and her close relationship with Rupert Evet's character in this movie and their desire to They were both best friends in real life. Yeah. And that's why the movie exists. and John Slustinger was a gay man. And I think as I recall, having watched the movie There is something A little like brom comy in a good way I comforting about the movie. I was eighteen. I loved it. I loveved Madonna. It was a fun rom com. I think it's critically not Not well I Well I don't think people were kind about it. I remember seeing it I think also in theaters because this was also after my best friend's wedding. Y. So I was famiar was out every. Yeah, exactly. One of the first actors to come out is Gay in Hollywood I meanm one of the only men who could be the first face on a poster. we were talking about this. Maybe off mic about Jonathan Bailey recently, right? And we were ye it still doesn't not today. Yeah. The movie's fine.' fine. It's fine. It feels like she did it just because she really wanted to. I think she did it because R Ever really wanted to. and she really loved Rorever. And she was like, I'll do this for you. There was a funny tid about, there's two funny tids, because John Slashing iss like seventy five years old this point or something. He's had a fifty year career making movies at this point. Apparently Madonna, like like had completely shifted in how she was, she was married, I think she was either with Guy Richie or married Guy Richie at this point And she like couldn't she wouldn't doer wouldn't do a sex sce. She was like, no heterosexual sex scenes. John Schuschinger, or probably not John Schcher obviously the studio wouldn't do a homosexual sex scene. So There's no sex scenes in the movie. And even when she had to like make out with Benjamin Brat, one of the hottest people ever, she had to drink And so apparently she would keep having a few drinks and then ad liibbing. and Joh Llessinger was getting like increasingly agitated with her ad liibbing. And at some point there was like some scuffle and he fell and broke his cockicks. Oh no,inger. So he kind of hated the experience, I believe of making this phone Tough one. Tough one I didn't see Star You just h? No, no ort film exain what it is. It's a short film that she directed and appeared in gettinget ready to start structing our own features But first we have to do something abomable two thousand two is swpped away D you know it was Stephen Webber's idea you did because I put it in the dock. Stephven Weber, who, one of the hot guys of my youth from Wings. Sure, him and Tim Day. He was friends with them and said that they should remake The Lena Wertmueller nineteen seventy four. Have you seen the original four? C certainly have. Yeah. Jimn Carlo Gini. yeah. Mant to watch it before so I could S the good version, but I didn't. We did a nineteen seventy six movie draft that's coming out later this month and Lina Vertt Millller's seeven Beauties was nominated for an Oscar like a couple of years after this swept away was really like her breakthrough, I think to audiencesond beyond Europe. Madonna was actually as I guess I should have brou it earlier, but it's worth bringing now. She was kind of a deep cenophile like since college. she loved film and films of like You know, every like prominent filmmaker filmaker see that in the the tour direction and the music videos and everything, like every other iteration of what she creates as a pop star and all the visual aspects of being a pop star that she has control over. Like have immense film references. O German exppression is old. herer greatest film is her music videos. Yeah, of course. as a whole. I assume that's what we So' be the end of this conversation. just look at vogue Yeah I mean, that's it. It's a great bedtime story roen Chris Cunningh. I mean like she has made some of the best music videos that have ever existed. Yeah. U Anyway, Swept awayay is not one of them. Swept awayay is just u Insane It incredibly annoying. I would say it is It is probably the worst performance from Madonna. You know what? It is uniquely bad very important they and has made a choice to be really aggressive, but the aggressive tone is not matching with anything that's going on in the movie and no one says it. No one fixs it, fixes it. No one pulls her aside. What's the Charlie and the chocolate factory character Biled girl era salt, Like her whole tone the entire time for Brady. I want it You, me, you're bad. I hate you. Give me this. And I'm like, dude, guy Richie, were you not there Were you asleep is not your job to direct and tell her to be different. It's consistent with performance by the actress, Mary Angela Miladto, who plays the character in the seventy four film. like is they are doing the movie It's just it's not a good version of the movie It's a tough one. You know You had some unkind things to say about guy and like This was really weird that this happened. Like and it kind of fascinatingly like derails him as a filmmaker a minute too becauseuse he's done swted away or that swept away they got married. Well, I'm not sure about that part, but I mean, he makes lock stock of two smoking barrels and snatch. And if you were in the Cime movies these two was hit like a. They were just like, this is the coolest fucking thing I've ever seen. I' obviously riffing on a lot of shit from the seventies, but his dialogue was really funny and fast moving. He was immediately pulling in the Brad Pittits and Beno del Toros like right away, it was a real phenomenon And you know why? Because he's not a kid from the East Side who was poor his whole life as he purported to be. He was a boarding school kid with two parents who married aristocrats. I got no thoughts on his personal life or his background. I don't even know that much about it. I do know that after Snatch, we were like Is this like British Sorsese or something? Yeah obviously wasn't even close to what it turned out to be. And I think he has actually redeemed himself in the last five or so years with like a certain kind of movie that he's gotten really good at But this is so far away. what people thought he was good at. and he did it obviously because he fell in love with someone, right? It's so unclear to me like why this film was made One assumes she wanted to make it.? And he I mean, everyone had to want to make it. Yeah But like immediately the movie' over, he goes right back to. In my study of Guy Richie, he doesn't do a lot of things he doesn't want to do. so you know, he had to want to make it too He liks her beautifully sort of. She looks she's stunning in this film. Again, much like Shanai Surprise. I'm like, sure. But I ate every minute of this film except that she looks so stunningly beautiful. Do you think that this is when I started to Google like Madonna PEDs? What was that like performance enhancing drugs? Oh, because you were so because yeah, the And it's when, you know, obviously She's getting older. as older women know you have to start doing your strength training. like some just's about She's she's an athlete and she's always been really ripped Yeah. and bone density is important. But then like you can start seeing like the veins a little. And this two thousand two is also like the this is Tracy Anderson method, though I think. So Sammys sosa Eera, right? Yeah. I just looked in the. I think she was think she doing You know, I was just kind of like I don't I think I could work really hard Yeah and it wouldn't look like that wororth noting that Guy Richie literally never made another movie again that centered a woman, pereriod every single movie he makes a aboutment Yeah it is worth noting though. One of the reasons the movie doesn't work. It's like he doesn't understand how to makeake a movie like this. It's not something that interests him. So that's why it's such a. I think part of it fromom my understanding, I didn't see the original, but I read up on it is that part of an you correct me. Part of what makes the original work is the political aspect of it and the like Re heavy leaning into the classism and the fact that the woman is like a fascist. Yes they can Not completely, but like they really neuter that in this movie. And all it comes down to is like a few like loose chats about capitalism that are like completely forgetable and you don't also there's there's a scene of sodomy in the first one that is like kind of driving that point home of like, How you get fucked by the rich? Yeah, But like but inverting it, that's completely cut out becausey rich don't want to do that allegedly. So I just think the premise is neutered. It's not going to work anyways The guy was Hopo, the son of the original actor. He's okay. They don't have any chemistry. so they don't but's He's in London looking at this point Yeah It's just and she's friends with Gwyneth Paltrow. She' friends Gwneth Paltr? I think so. I was just prior to Googling this. Yeah. Yeah, yeah yeah. And Sellah McCartney. There's a fun Guenet. There's a mean a fun Guenet a but a fun find Madonna era. Great era. Yeah. There's a really weird commercial that also comes around around this time, a BMW commercial that Guy Richie directed. Do you remember this? I don't Which also I was like, do you hate her Becauseuse the premise is like she's like again, this like really bitchy pop star that's like a massive kunt I feel like she was very comfortable leaning into some of this stuff, though. That's sort of what I was saying where she's kind of she provoked. Yeah Well for, I think it fits back into her life edic she's like o Oh, this is a funny one note comedic actress. Okay, o, Clive Owmen is in it. So it's her up against Clive Owen, and he's like the driver. and the whole thing is like he drives like a psycho to like beat her up in the car. like she's just like flying flopping around the car. And at the end, he like ejects her onto a red carpet and it's like shown that she pissed herself And I was like, why would you make your whyy would you have your wife this Crazy They didn't stay married, so no He had take ninety two million dollars of her money eith when you left takes And that's what funded all your favorite movies. two million dollars. All every league of I think or club of extraordinary gentlemen or group of extraordinary gentlemen. himself. There was a Gy Richie profile. My friend Patrick I was like, what's Gy Richie? He's been making movies and Patrick started listing films, and I was like, wow, I have an entire Baron stay and Barars situation with Guy Richie where I did not I've never heard of any of these films And he's just been cranking out two films a year for twenty years. also TV shows at this point. And TV shows. I did see the Sherlock one, which I did quite enjoy but I didn't know. The Sherlock film? I just. Was it that because I would say Guy Richie's Sherlock Holmes like Guy Richie's the covenant I love Robert Downey Jr and I love Chherl Holmes, What could go wrong? I don't what to say Guy Richie makes a lot of good movies. I' made a lot of good movies. I don't know about I've been talking about for twenty years. open. It's really good. Yeah. Aladdin famously, one of the big pictures. That was good. Yeah. remember when you started crying 'cause the genie fucks That was an unusual choice to give him a romantic and love interest. I'm sorry, I've just chosen my person and it's. There's crazy really funny Esquire profile of Guy Richie from two thousand nine in the Tomchia Railroad. W back when Esquire I would like write these really abrasive chatty kind of profiles. that really, I think shows you what was going on with Guy at post Madonna You know what, to be fair to both of them, I just think it's a crazy pairing. L I think it would be difficult for any male mortal to be with a woman like Madonna because it's the classic thing. like she's so powerful and such a like luminous iconic, rich, like everything that emasculates a normal man and then you're a director on top of it and you need control. like it's not a good parenting. Yeah. I had got. They were very much in love though I had guy on the Big Picture early on in the show Yeah. and it was for the King Arthur film that he made. don't know about it. N never heard of it. King Arthur is like a Samuraied swordsan' weird with Charlles Mn, I kind of enjoy it. They had men blacked about everything the guy res up. I don't know anything about it. But he came in And honestly, was really cool. Like I don't know what to say. He was I think he was extremely polite. He was funny. It worked on you. He was dressed like he was gonna go hunting with his dogs immediately the pod, you know, he just he was given British state lad, and yeah, I enjoyed it. I had a nice time. hopefully they're on good nice terms. I think they are. Okay. I think they are So activation just be deleted deleted not film. I enjoyed her in Die Another Day as very didid you watch this Did I rewatched, I mean, I've seen Die another day. I just rew watched theiro Yeah. It's pretty funny. I totally forgotten it's Rossmond. Me too. She's just so young. Yeah reat. It's a great movie actually. No, it's not. I loved it. It's a very dumb boond movie but it's ent. Are they not supposed be dumb? They are I don' understand Ph. That' such a fun time. I was like, this is fun. I think that's actually exactly what it's supposed to be. You were the correct audience. And also Madonna showing up in a Bond movie 's kind of the right way to use. She's greatin. Yeah. Well also that was the first ever Bnd theme that wasn't about ballot D by Mon die another day. It's an electronic song. so it's awesome. Interesting. Yeah She's she's pretty good. I I'mstand Do I not understand good films? Is this is not good What is a Bond film is it supposed to be like more elevated? Well he doesn't like the Bond films. So that's part of it. Yeah. And sometimes But you like Mission Imossible, which is different why 'causeuse they jump out of planes They did some cool stuff. They St that Hunt is American. Oh, okay, that's yeah. Now I like the Bondles. That's true. I was not raised on them though. So I don't have the same emotional conect to me. Sean Conary is my bond. So I was explaining to my roommate ' she had never she's never seen findinding Forerester. And I was like, who the dog. The way we used to say that to each other all I remember the movie is about Nothingember a basketball playing team who is You befriended an old reclusive author who's like based on Jadady Sallinger, is that right? You've just nailed the film. Yeah.am you. do you know film. What I remember the most is you're the man or dog. Yeah in every trailer and commercial for the so wter. Diee other days, it's not the greatest Bond movie. What's the greatest Bond movie? You say Casino Royaalle, I say Skyfall. No, that's not what I say. I do like Casino Royale quite a bit. Yeah I think it's from Russia with loveove is the best one. of Okay.'s Roger. I'm more a Syful person than. Oh, you are. Oh, that's nice. I don't think that's always been your tune, but welcome. It's not true. we were on the Skyfall reewatchables together. I know. And that was beautiful. But even then you were like, well, the real people think it should be Casino Royale. Have you noticed that they are they're keeping us apart on the rewatchables? When's the last time we did a rewatchables movie together? It would be powerful together Every single episode, you know, Yeah.be don't maybe we don't they don't want to replicate the big p. Wait so what desperately seeking Susan would be your number one pick If we're not if we can't pick truth or err Wow would be interesting I don't I don't think docent iss be made re watchatchables. Oh, no, forurther rewatchable. Yeah, for watchables. So you know what would have been and they already did it is u John Kuzck at the record st. idelityidelity on that the people that were on it because I love Janna and I loved Rob, but that should have been me. Who's more suited to? I mean, the ringer exists because of high fidelity. It's a bunch of people who are high fidelity people, evenven if they're not, even if like I hate high fidelity, but they have their own you have their own version of. that one would be my number one Gross point blank that's a mo. That's probably my favorite movie of all time or at least top and I know it inside and out and I love it and I can speak blore about it.' five star classic. It's a five star classic. and I think unconsciously based good deal of my personality. I'm Debieewberyry. ye Minny is cooking in that movie Yeah. Yeah. so Bill Simmons, if you're listening. He's notudible. He's not. You don't have to say that. we could just let an air of mystery for theist. listen to the big picture either. donon'try about. we don't know. Did they do a casino Royale rewatchables Yeah, we did it I was Maybe it was me and Chris. Yeah, no, see, that's the thing Did didn't do it? You didn't, I thought. Oh, I did do it. Yeah o. Sorry. Hi Bill. Thanks for having me. literally not listening.. Allow some mystery for the listeners who believe that we're friends and listen.id Bill is listen We we all listen to each other. have the Madonna filmography pod? In the sauna. I mean, I would be listening. I listenbe on triple speed Ts Listen, I listened to all the big picture episodes, even the Star Wars draft to which it was pure ASMR for me. It was just my friends voices bathing my brain because I have no idea what the fuck y'all talking. Have you seing a new hope? Iven't seen I've only ever seen the first Star Wars movie. That's a new hope. Yeahah. Is that the first one? a new hope. But you know what? Is that what it's I have found myself explaining that to like other non Star Wars nerds. But like people who know about Star Wars and know a lot of stuff, they just aren't of the generation where they caught onto the. Was it caught that in the beginning No? No. Oh yeah. I onlyw I saw when I was eighteen and that was the only time I saw I saw spaceballs first. So I came to star with being like, o, that Space Balls two coming out next year of my favor moies all time. that's another re watchatchallals I would do. I know every Melbrooks movie inside and out. Oh, can she come on the Mel Brooks episode? we're doing My parents wereed me on that. That's like that's like our shared love language. We've seen every We're gonna to rank every Melrook movie on the big picture. You're booked That's exciting. That's great. Part. There's only twelve movies I can't wait. Okay. I didn't see f ones, I'm sorry. I thought we weren't going really talk about directorial stuff but I do want to because I did see do. I haven't seen it either. you look I? No no. I haven't seen. because you couldn'tt you can't find it, right? Yeah It's not accessible. Like I couldn't even find it on like like archives. org or any like tirated site. Like I couldn't find it interesterest Maybe it is out there. I do want to talk a bit about WE to wrap it up. Sure. Okay I really wanted this to be good I mean, you want That's say' be good. I've also I recently read three books about the Duchess of Windsor. Sure. And what did we learn from this movie or from from the three books. Not a lot. Okay. I think that we did learn that they were both And he, particularly he being were the former Yes, they were Nazis. In this film, they sort of try to soften that by saying they just had dinner once when they didn't know that Hitler was bad. Right And M hasn't had dinner with a person that we found charming, but ended up to be really a bad person. Yeah. So the movie spends a lot of time being like, well, they were misunderstood and we don't really know. And we know We do know In fairness, there' quite a bit of chatter around Ava Peron and her husband and some questionable political. I don't know about it because I'm not a historical scholar, but I believe they also had some comings and goings with M that Andrew Loyd Weber and Tim Rice's musical Avita is not the truest representation of Argentinian history.. I'm not an expert. I have done a little bit more reading on Wallace Simpson and Edward, the Duke of Windsor And I just they were not. But this was so it's so weird. I'm like Ay Cornish is a great actor, but then but you're given nothing to do. And it's like built around the auction of their stuff The transitions are exactly what I did when I first started even directing little pieces of content where you're like, this is so clever. If I just transition from this gloves on sale at the auction to her hands in the gloves. But it does that like twenty five times. It's Julia and Julia or Julia and Julia applied to this right. Soiting where it goes back because her name is Wally. She's named after Wallace Simpson. Yeah. And she understands what happened between them as like one of the most romantic things of all time. Again, you can see that. I mean for I get, I think that is not questionable. Like for a king to abdicate his throne because he loves you so much is like that' pretty That's not what it is. This is like why do we keep telling this story This is the fucking king speech too. L why is this interesting? Well, I think it's interesting for a man to give up power for a woman. Because he was also so Nazi. and so if he hadn't given up to the throne, then there would have been We should care about the British royal. We should think Well we care about the future of Britain and defeating Nazi Germany. Well, I know that I know you know what happened We came through. D. we did. But I think that there were some concerns that if it not it would be reonymous C take birth on the on the throne. Remember in a The physical media draft when Tim was like went to the Claremont Lounge with the guy who was in the King's beach. What was his name? Cinf, which is definitely how he's identy. He's referr to Coinford. Y Mr. Darcy I mean and Chris Ryan here for this particular part about the war and the Nazis? I agree. But do anyway, Meghan, You said it. Markle. Yeah. And that whole situation and Harry have been compared a lot And Harry is a Nazi? Wallace. No, but I do think that both stories in the popular imagination underrate. how lame the man is in the situation. I just like that those are their real problems. Simpson was a CI agent Well, that it could be that would be a cool movie. Yeah. Like, oh, actually the CIA sent Wallace Simpson. You want to watch that honestly, can I tell you my favorite piece of Wallace Simpson related pop culture Yeah is the second, hold on. I gota okay spy S you haveit until the end. this is a second book in a series, the Sy War Red series which are written by Oh sorry. we don't have time for this now. No, Seawn doesn't care about much like Guy Richie, Sewn doesn't care about women's interests. So the Spy W royal family members not in my interest then. The Spy War Red is the first book and it's written by Eene Countess of Romanones. And she was a CIA agent like before it was even the CIA OSS and then she gets trained, she gets sent to Spain, she does some spying. thenen she marries a Spanish c. and so she becomes the countountess of Romanones and then She's reactivated by the CIA and gets sent to Wallace Simpson's house. And I think Wallace this is after they've abated they're in France. So now she's the Duchess of Windsor and they're doing like light CIA work together. So there is historical anyway. Debbie is not good. The point is that the story despite Seaan's beliellf, it is an interesting one, which is why they've made money. It's not really that interesting. They were just like Nazis and not great people. Interesting. But it is not not a love story. But what's cool in this film is Oscar Isaac, isn't it? Yeah. Very early Oscar Isac.. The costumes are nice This spy were red is pretty good. That's all I have that's all I've got for. I mean, this is it. This is the end. This is She doesn't do it's been fifteen years since WE And no movies. Oh, well, they they always cast sixty year old women in movies incly wealthy. You're talking about funding movies. maybe she's not interested anymore. That's's interest. She out of love. She didn't stick with the game. you know? like this is Are you a real one or are you not, Madonna? Make another movie I guess she didn't want to. I guess she left that and guy Richie behind and is focusing on the music. I guess so Yeah I mean, look, There are some of the best films short films of our lifetime that Madonna made and they're called music videos, like we said before Go watch some of David Fincher's greatest work Oh Father is an underseen David Fincher directed Madonna video that's quite good and quite weird It's tr Really good stuff What's your favorite Mononna video? mean, But hung up really made an impact on me phenomenal. And I liked your recreation. Thank you so thought that was I thought I nailed the outfit You nailed the outfit and the editing on that one was it spot off Cory really Coryy Penel really nailed that. Yeah, I mean, there's so the one with Alie G where he's the LMo driver I mean, it's funny that they just her skills in the music video and the image making. and she obviously works with like other great directors on those, but Jonah Ackerland can be like collaborative and make something so visually memorable that just does not. really seem to translate to fature scripted films It's just a different thing. I think it's probably notable that Aita was so successful for her and that she got good notices for it because It's her applying the same rules ass kind of like, Over dramaticized style of performance, which works so well when you're singing, express yourself and doesn't work as well when you're asked to portray like kind of quiet nuance in certain dramatic movies. or comedy. You know who's a great example of someone who's a big, loud performer and an incredible actress Okay, I thought you were going say Lady Ga. You know, and a lot would m acting is not necessarily in the mode of how she's seen as a star too. That's what I'm saying like Pe versus Lar Flint. She's incredibly a man in the moon. Shesw two hundred cigarettes. I mean, she's She's made some really great films and she's actually a really really good actress. I think it's She maybe should have or could have had a bigger and longer Probably that inid women I love it is. I love women. Yeah, it must be nice for. I do. Just gliding through the world d da da to the A MC. Hello, Mrter Fantasy, Wlcome. This but this not because I'm a man. It's because I'm there all the time. It's true And also because his name is on the Stubbs membership. That's know. That's right. Yeah, they have to address you by name. Check your ID on this. I once saw them trying to check a twelve year old's ID for the AMC stuff. his library card? They were like, he has to have an ID. I wasm so angry. I intervened. I was like, let this child experience the greatreat workorks senior And the great workorks were which film? I mean it was probably like I don't know. I can' N you Manji. what was the other movie with Jack Black and Paul Rud? Anacondo. Anaconda. probablyrobably Anaconda, don't want. Yeah. I'm really jealous you guys were seeing shaap Jackives without me and that's how ofose they. We're not going to the same theatater now How to go to a different theater. Okay excited.' sorry to tell you. It's okay. I have to go to the Westide. Yeah. That's a choice that you made. It is. Well, I feel good about it. Okay. love. How many movies are you doing now in R? I'm seeing three movies today. Yeah, rightight after this I'm going to see the sheep detectives. I'm going to see pre screen canann film that I can't reveal And then I'm going to see moreoral combat too really haroowing. Yeah. I'm going to see one and then, what are you seeing? She I'm also seeing sheep detectives and then maybe I'll show my sons some of the great Madamonna works in the form of show them the truth or Dare scene where she gives Fallaceo to a Ev it's not an Evion bottle. it's a French mineral water Vich Vich M Sorry, I want to be correct about that You guys, what an absolute delight and pleasure this has been to spend this time with you and talk about the filmography of Madonna. Thank you for coming on the Bandswayain podcast and for watching some if not all of these films to do this with me. Thanks for having us. It's an honor. Come back next week for an episode of Danceay. If you liked what you heard today, subscribe for more episodes of Fansplane. Our guests today were Amanda Dobbins and Jeann Fennessy The episode was produced by Rob Sunderman and edited by Adrian Bridges with helpelp from Justin Sales. Video Pduction by Sarah Redi. Executive producers for Bandspllant are Gina Dalbeck and me, Yussie Solet. Our gorgeous and catchy themeong was composed and performed by Bethany Cosantino and Jennifer Flavan, and graciously recorded by Carlos D de La Garza in Los Angeles California Special thanks to our producer emermeritus, prodroucer Dylan, AKA Dylan Tupper Ruper And also Sean Fenessey and once again my King Goop Kitchen Come back every Thursday for a new episode of Banslain, on Spotify, or wherever you listen about Yeah, we did go really we went fast into that. I was like w. I thought we were like wasting time. I thought that they were waiting for us Okay now the green light is on. Okay