Strategies for Change and Hope

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From the world of legally blonde, watch L, a new original series only on Prime videoideo july first Hey, it's Christiey from Lu Eleven. I'm here at the office and we just dropped some really fun new summer colors in the Fow Y styles. If you're like me, you've loved the Flow Y tank and bra for years, and as of this year, it also comes in a dress and a crop tank These are made in our buttery soft newouu fabric, and my favorite part is the built in bra It makes it super easy to wear for yoga or honestly as an everyday basic. You can find Flow Y sttyles in store or online at lululemon. com Being a narcissist relationship, it's as strong as heroin addiction, The damage they can do can last a lifetime. Kathleen, you are a psychotherapist and you specialise in narcissism. I'd love to talk to you about how narcissists can affect our work lives, our relationships, our friendships. I lived it and recovered it. Things like my dad died during COVID. The next day he said, let's end the relationship, I don't want to be around your sadness. The ex wife, when I contacted her, said, I wondered how long it would be before you come back Narcissists will want to feel good in whatever form that matters to them. I want to ask you, what does gaslighting really mean How would you start seeing the pattern of a narcissistic pnt What should you do if you don't feel psychologically safe for someone? But there's four things that meanans you're in the company of a narcissist. Tell me about that now. So that's the first time we begin to realize that something is not quite right at home and then we realise maybe it never has been. There's some brilliant critical questions that we can ask that I think unearth things quite quickly., yeah go go. What Ileene Saxxton I just want to welcome you to Begin again. Thank you so much So you are You specialize in narcissism as psychotherapist. Yeah,'s right. you often deal with people in midlife who are kind of realizing that they have a narcissistic parent and helping them navigate that and obviously I'll love to talk to you a bit about that but not only that how narcissists can affect every walk of our life, our work lives and our relationships, our friendships, So I'd like to kind of dip into all of that, but I would like to kick off with Narcissistic parents, of course. And this book came out last year. It did. It's a mega I mean, so unbelievably helpful Um because there are even kind of I love these diagrams. They are so brilliant at helping helping you navigate These as well, in particular amazing So What constitutes, let's kick off with what constitutes a narcissist? What is a narcissist? So there's two ways of looking at it, I think. One is the pure diagnostic. So it is a diagnosable personality disorder, cllus to B sits alongside other things It was first kind of noticed and named in nineteen eighty and it's listed in the DSM five, which w nineteen eighty. nineteen eighty relatively recent. That feels so what That's completely blown my mind. I was convinced you're gonna to say eighteen? No I know very, very recently. I think we've just learned to understand a lot more about personality disorders per se O the last few years and we've done more research in it and research has been funded. I think lots of research just wasn't funded. So we might have felt that something was a bit amiss with someone, but we couldn't really nail what it was. So since nineteen eighty. So there's lots of statistics. We talk about between zer point five and six point two percent. That's quite a big delta between the two of people that are actually diagnosable. If they went to a psychiatrist, they would be diagnosed with a personality disorder But narcissism is a spectrum. I think we've all got a little few traits knocking about. I think that's why we were all quite interested as humans in it. those that have more of a personality type in the middle And you've got those that are disordered. So we think about it on a spectrum Okay, so this is interesting because it's not a switch. it's a I feel like If I'm honest, yeah, what I do would require a certain level of narcissism like I love what I do E with his ghostss to say You know I like I've done it for so long, I feel like I know what I'm doing.. And I keep thinking is that Narcissism, but it could be narcissism, but on a spectrum. It could be on a spectrum, but it's absolutely fine for us to be really good at what we do and to kind of know that we're actually quite good at what we do. We can tell the difference and the way that I then look at it out of the diagnostic frame is It's not about a diagnosis necessarily, it's how the people make you feel and your central nervous system feel when you're with them Because we can be great at something, but is at someone else's expense. Right Narcissists will want to feel good in whatever form that matters to them and you are an object to them. You're not a person. There's no relationship between them. They might performatively act as though you're in a relationship or a friendship but actually you're just an object for them to get what they need. and what they need is narcissistic supply, which is either aberration or sympathy or something where you're going to be drawn towards them So we've got the narcissistic criteria But lots of narcissists will never go anywhere near a psychiatrist. they will never really know, which can be difficult when you haven't got someone that's being diagnosed. So for me it's about how do you start to feel when you are in their company That's interesting. So narcissists don't want to go to a psychiatrist. No Because the misconception is that narcissists love themselves and think they're fabulous It's the complete opposite They are absolutely splintered, fractured, they think so little of themselves, they've had to create a mask. persona and a defence that says areren't I great? because if you could actually see behind this you would realize that I'm nothing and nobody and they cannot bear that. So it's a defence. We call it a deficiency defence that they know that they're deficient in so many ways and they've probably felt that since they were a kid. So they create this mask that they wear and that's the mask that we have to deal with all the time And would a psychotherapist then see that quite quickly person it because I've studied it so much. Most psychotherapists would get a feel for it. mostost people untrained would get a feel that some Well, I think now we're almost all kind of looking sometimes or we're with somebody or we've been with somebody and you think Oh, I think something was off there. But I'm quite interested and I will We will move on in a minute, but when you meet somebody and you think Oh, I think you have Narcissistic traits here. Yeah be quite hard to tell it. Someone they had narcissistic traits because Paint it So badly, like it's become a commonal garden insult Y. Yeah. You're a narcissist. Yeah. Everyone's a narcissist. Yes. So we're throwing it out like sweeties, but actually if you're really in the company of someone who is disordered it's a very, very different thing and the damage that they can do that can last a lifetime is very, very serious. So to some degree, although as a therapist, I'm glad that we are talking about it more in general, I'm also concerned that those that have really suffered, if you had a parent, a partner, or a boss, a friend Actually, are you really getting the attention and the care and the healing that you need because everyone's a little bit like, well everyone's a narcissist, sort of get over it type of thing. So it's tricky. We have to really think about what we're saying. I think we've had this in the last year with OCD. We've all them a bit OCD, and we've been pulled back a bit on it, which is if you've really got OCD, it's a very difficult condition to have to navigate through your life. So I think narcissism will begin to tip back into the center where we realize that really you shouldn't be calling people that unless they've had a diagnosis, or indeed you feel some wayay qualified to make that diagnosis with them traraits is another thing. We can all have a few little narcissistic traits and we can be aware of them And we can manage them if we're disordered, it's a completely different thing. And I mean, the likelihood of somebody who's disordered going to get help from a psychotherapist is so Almost saying I want you to take my mask off, Well they wouldn't want you to take the mask a million years. They're not going to do that. They're going to deflect it in some other way Those that might be in couples therapy, for example, that are desperately trying to save a relationship may in the final knockings of that therapy think a better come forward and say maybe there is something wrong with me But often again, it's performative within a couple of weeks that have slipped straight back to their way that they were before So it's the only mental health condition ofeno where there is no medical cure and there's no psychotherapeutic cure. If someone has a disorder when I was studying it and I was told that by the professors, couldn't I'm a woman built on hope. My belief is everything's fixible, everything's possible. we'll find a way. There is no cure and I find that so unpalatable, but that is the current research that we are told, There is no cure if you have the disorder That slightly bw my mind. Yeah. I always thought there was some way path to redemption, but no. No. Lots of other personality disorders absolutely not NPD Wow I mean, I like this idea of that you'll know because you'll know how you feel. I am I've been thinking a lot recently about my kids and their partners and u The question isn't do you love them It's u How do they make you feel about yourself Do you love yourself when you're with them? Yes. Do they lift you? Do they make feel better? Do they make you want to be better? It's all of those things. So we say there's four D's that I talk about when I might feel that I might be in the company of a narcissist. So we talk about dazzle Do they dazzle you?Quite early on. You're sort of thenen they draw you in, you're drawn into them. Then they start devaluing you and then they discard you that's the pattern that I'm looking for. when I'm hearing stories about or I'm hearing them talk about their relationships I'm hearing some of what's going on, the pattern of something that happens I mean, when we're talking about a parent obbviously, you you've You were born and either from them or that they were your dad And throughout your life So they're either a a mam or a dad and So unless you were adopted, and You would have known them your entire life. Yes. So how would you start realizing or start seeing the pattern of a narcissistic parent, what would that look like? So as the child of one and we'll get at some point into the spectrum of there's lots of different flavours of them. There's some sense that there's a performiveness about what you need to be for them Are they showing you off because you're clever, pretty, good at Badmonton? Doesn't matter what it is. But is there something about you being talked about by them because of something brilliant that you are doing? So are they showing you off? Are they living vicariously through you? If they wanted to be a great ballerine or they wanted to be a barrister and they're pushing you in that direction, are they getting their own dreams lived you in some way The opposite of that is we talk about scapegoating as well. The things they don't like about themselves, maybe they've got a temper or they're untidy or something. They start projecting that onto one of the children the child has to hold all the negative things that they can't hold about themselves because the narcissist can't withstand that back to deficiency. So they give it to one of the children. So often in these families we'll find that if there are a number of children, they're all given slightly different roles in the familyies And some people will say to me, well, it's all right for brother or sister because they were the golden child. Tust me, it doesn't matter what position they' in. it's miserable. because you aren't allowed to be yourself. I call it identity theft in the book. And I think narcissism in general, I say it's like a thousand tiny identity thefts. Slowly, slowly, slowly. they take away the truth of who you are and start to tell you who they need you to be instead in whatever guysy they might be in And so as a parent, they are stealing your true self, your identity. And it can take us a lifetime to realize that and then think, how the hell do I get back to the person that I was meant to be when I came into this world? And that's often the work we do, particularly if someone in midlife to your question has found that maybe that they've had a narcissistic parent. I mean, I can't help but think about the kind of twenty and thirty year olds as well. you know, Theyre just starting on your journey of life but being robbed of your identity, it's very hard for them because It's harder to identify Is there anything that a twenty or thirty year old could do to kind of think, Oh, Hang on a minute I'm seeing pn here that doesn't fill or are they as well as we were talking about? How do they make you feel? Should you be looking at yourself There's definitely something about how do they make you feel? And of course it's often when we leave home go to college, university, move up to wherever you want to live with your mates You begin to separate. so individuation is very important for any child. So we tend to start doing that around fourteen, fifteen. So we start to say, actually, you, I don't want cheese with my baked beans, thansks very much. We start to decide what we want rather than what we've been given Be when we leave home and we start to spend time in other people's families We start to notice what other family sort of systems are like. We start to notice what other people's parents are like when they come to visit, whatever it may be. That gives us context for right n this isn't like my family or I notice how they are with their mum or their dad and it's really relaxed and easy and So we begin to get a sense of what that looks like and that's the first time that often we begin to realize that maybe something is not quite right at home, and then we realise maybe it never has been also then brings into question the other parent which we call the enabler who may have felt they were trapped and could do nothing about it. But often in therapy someone comes with the angst of the narcissistic parent they want to fix and heal whatever's going on there. But then they start to wonder why didn't my mum or my dad step in or grandparent step in and stop some of this happening? So it can be we have to unravel it a bit before we can build it back in again. So sometimes people come thinking they's going to talk about one parent or one boss or one partner, but it starts to unravel the people that were around them Be narcissist why can't anybody protect me? Absolutely. Oh God, it's quite sad that, isn't it? The layering And sometimes that needs a discussion with the other parent who might be able to say, listen, I was aware. I had a choice what was the best way I could protect you and maybe it was to stay in the system rather than to leave. But we see it again in offices as well. P Oh know o in parenting. In parenting. Yeah someomebody might decide to stay to protect the children. Yes, they might stay in the marriage. even though they know their partner' a narcissist to protect the children, but the child might not feel fully protected because they'd rather the parent had just left left and taken them with Right. So there's lots of sort of timings and context to think about when we're beginning to heal from these people. Wow boardrooms You'll be aware that the boss there's a problem, but nobody wants to lose their job. Everyone's got their mortgages banking on it. So everyone becomes aware But nobody wants to become the whistlebower because they tend to get outcast Same with a child and a family. Same with a friend in a friendship group. If you're the one that finally raises the flag and says Something's not right with this It can unravel a whole system And that's why it's so difficult Is there a gender that is more prone to narcissism So for many, many years, people said it was much more male orientated. The fact the statistics were cleanly seventy five, twenty five Its a load of rubbish, it's fifty fifty. Oh, is it that interesteresting. It's just that men and women with you know it's tricky not being stereotypical, but tend to display it slightly differently. Right. So you'll find slightly more grandiose flavour of narcissism with men. So what does that look like? Pompous, arrogant, takes all the oxygen in the room, makes all the conversations about them The female side might be slightly more vulnerable covert, so thinking about the nurturing side, so very giving, very sacrificing, often a victim have got a sad backstory that they want to tell everybody so that you're drawn in again, but you're dazzled or drawn in by the story, or you could be dazzled and drawn in by someone's confidence or sort of charisma and those kinds of things This is so interesting because I don't think I've ever heard the word vulnerable associated with a narcissist. That's fascinating that that actually it's your kind of victimhood and your big backstory that brings the attention. Yeah. Oh wow. narcissistic supply. So they need supply in whatever form they can get it And in sort of classic narcissism, it was the attention seeking but you can get just as much attention by being what we call covert or vulnerable narcissist It's by doing it a different way, talking about self sacrifice. And you can get grandiose, I'm sure women. Absolutely. Wh Cnda so different Fiday.. And we talk about malignant narcissists and social narcissists. Oh wait, I want to know all of that note. Tell me about that now. So let's say we think about communal narcissists and you might get this in a friendship group So these are people that areing they're organising the girls trip, they're organising the golfing trip. they're organising all the communal things that we do. the PTA, all the stuff that we have to do They'll be organizing that and everyone's very grateful and thankful for that. Yeah. Tust me. There There's lots of people that do that and they do it with the best heart ever and we love them for If later down the line they start to say, well Because I did all of that, I really need you to do this for me. I need to call in a favour because I did all of that. You remember I did all of that and now I'd like you to do this for me It's not without cost in. So we have that. We have those that work a lot for lots of big charities tellell everyone but for the wrong reasons, not to raise more money for the charity to say, aren't I amazing that I do all this for this charity? That's me that did that. So it's like virtue signaling going, look at me, I'm such a saint. virtue signaling on acid. Yes. And so there's a huge difference. you know what's the real reason they're doing it? And look a little bit closer We can tend to start to feel when something's a bit off and again, you'll feel it You'll feel the way they're talking about it. they're not promoting the charity, they're promoting what they did for the charity. It's very subtle but interesting difference. So we have those types as well. But again, in friendship groups, there'll be all sorts of different types that will be coming forward. So those that have always got a crisis, one hundred percent, they're always the one that's got the worst thing that's going on for them You might have broken up with your boyfriend, you might have a dog that's very unwell. They'll immediately trump you with the bigger story that they had about exactly the same things. Again, they just find a way of taking all the attention and making it bigger and better so that they feel that their're top dog in some form. Yes Sorry, I was laughing because u My husband died, That's not funny My husband died once and he was telling somebody and he died for three and a half minutes. Wow. And the guy went Oh. Well, I died for nine. I'll take your three and a half and I'll raise you. I was like Oh wow, like at least just go, o, that sounds good. sing how were that story. it? Yeah, I had the similar experience. It happened to me, it wasn't about that, it was like, I died for longer than you. Yeah again, the story is pulled round to them in some form. Yeah I mean, it is interesting, I think, how much more attuned we are, I think, to Sensing someone's energy and their focus of attention. but something I was really interested in was when you were talking about when somebody's trying to steal the thunder or the attention or steer something towards them When you were talking about covert and how somebody can seem really quite nice when they're not around you, but then when they're with you, it's about please feel sorry for me. Yeah. I'm having this terrible time. It's a very kind of It is hugely manipulative. And also really confusing if you are the partner or the child. You know the perfect word of this. confonfusion is one of the big things that you would start to feel if you accompananyied this person. Somehing's off Oftten we're left confused also by their behaviour So particularly if they're a partner actually, there'll be something where by in public they couldn't be lovely. only you go for dinner with them and their friends and they hold your hand under the table and they're super attentive and gorgeous and lovely. The minute you're in the taxi home, the minute the front door shuts, shut down, silent treatment. old and awful belittles you for what you said over dinner. So it's like a Jekyll and hyidee that you're dealing with. And this sort of we call it intermittent reinforcement the slot machine analogy, which is because when they're lovely, they're gorgeous, we keep trying to get them back to that sp. So we hold on in make them better. even when we've seen the very worst of them and think, actually, were if they were like that all the time I'd leave you in a heartbeat because you're Dreadful We have this loveliness that they show in public. and so we almost dread going home. And the same for parents. Oh wow when we getting we get in the door of the house Everything changes and it's very, very confusing. Yes. Yeah It's quite interesting Because as well I suppose as talking about who is a narcissist There's a little pce of me now that's questioning whether my mother was a narcissist from what you're saying. Yeah. I think she was just an alcoholic And alcoholics are selfish very I think it's difficult they going through feels like something a bit different that and this is quite a nice Maybe a reassurance that maybe not qu. Why did you think, maybe? What have led you to think that or to be curious about it for her? aboutb her being a narcissist? Yeah because she was a bit like me, a peacock, but an extreme peacock. It was walking down the street. I've talked about this before, but with with a long fake fur coat on and flashing people, she was naked. Yeah she's with me and I was eleven little you know. or putting me in kind of danger or taking me to a nightclub when I was thirteen and then going to school weed and leaving me on my own in the DJ booth. Um, where But and then she's like, you're fine, I need to go and do this. Like it's just thinking about herself. But I wonder whether that is just Absolutely chaotic alcoholic, chaotic and the seishness of the being so she was in The addiction. Yeah. Yeah. because She was totally self absorbed and never was interested. I mean, she did get she did get angry with me if I tried to impress her. I just wanted her to be proud of me really. That's what I was constantly seeking. What happened when you challenged her in life I would never challenge her I was terrified. I mean she'd go mental Because feedback or challenge for a narcissist is very, very difficult because for them, it's the equivalent of you picking at the mask Yeah and they're thinking you stay away Okaykay thatbe she was a bit be something you might give them the spectrum somewhere. Yeah Because I would I would never I would never even try and approach her because she'd just go S shit. Yeah. We were always just trying to keep her, keep the peace and keep the courseuse. But what happens and where do you put all those feelings if you weren't able to find a place to put them as a kid? It's tough. Well, I was just very lucky because I only spent my school holidays with her, but my sisteres is over there. Yeah. She was with her all the time and she had a very, very difficult life And she protected me from quite a lot when I was over there So I when she came over here. But what was interesting? I thought you were talking about kids not knowing their identity My sister lost her identity. ye I think But is the chronic lying something attached to anything No is it? Yeah. Is it attached to that? Yeah, it was partly attached to that, which is If we think about because my sister was a compulsive liar, but we used to laugh about it in the end because I'd just go Is that a porky party? go Yeah, it is yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was just part of our This is loss of identity again, and wanting to be accepted. So we talk about as Donald Winnicott's theory who's the most amazing he was the most amazing psychiatrist and psychotherapist If we're born a true self, so we come into the world as a tiny baby and nothing's happened to us and whatever spirit pilot light we have is ours to own But very quickly, we realize that we need to know we're keeping the peace with Mum. We're worrying about what's going to kick off, etcetera. We start adapting. So we have an adapted self that know we're in it a lot of the time if we've got difficult parents It then can move out to false self. We completely start lying about what we are, who we are, what we've done in order again to be accepted in some way. That's exactly what she did And the very worst is also idealized self must I must be idyllic in order to be accepted and loved. But if your sister got caught in false which would have not been her fault was because it was the way she survived. Yeah.. was I knew it was a survival. But what we say is we're quite a long way from home And so if we can find a way to bring ourselves back to home, that's the therapeutic work that I do with my clients. Yeah. Can I just say What a lovely thing be able to do. Yeah. This idea to be able to take someone home, is the greatest privilege Oh and to watch Sone grow in that way and thinking back to my sister that would have dumb For her whole life, you know, going forwards I mean life changing, right? You must know. How hard is it to kind of train someone who has like when you're talking about this journey going from someone who has literally had to change themselves to survive an arcissist. how kind of long I mean, I know it's a bit hard for you to say because everybody's different. Everyone's different, but I genuinely think it can take about eighteen months of concentrated work because we say that when a child doesn't feel loved they don't stop loving their parent, they stop loving themselves. So I've got to work with them on that to start with. We also quite naturally tend to defend our parents, even though we know I did that. Of course There's clearly things that are right. that our natural instinct is we've only got one or two or maybe three of the step or blended, but So therefore, we tend to defend them initially or we'll say other people have had it much worse than me because let's say that parent hasn't physically being violent or sexually being difficult or abusive Then we come of feel psychologically, know, should I be complaining at all? So there's all sorts of things that people will say initially as defence mechanisms and it's really clever that as a kid you've come up with that But over time in therapy we begin to slowly just peel it back to the point where they can get a little bit more comfortable with accepting It wasn't okay. Yeah I did that I mean, what a wonderful realisation to realise that you were wronged. Yes, as a person. Yes. And people often say, yes, but my mum or my dad had a difficult upbringing and they might have done. orth they were in the grip of addiction? Yes, absolutely But what we say is it might explain it But it doesn't excuse it. Yes, the difference there Wow And so that's also the work gently helping someone come to terms with that because then what does that also for them if their parent is alive or their parent has passed? What does that mean and what do they want to do with it? What I can't do is sort of open Pandora's box and show them and then kind of leave it there. you're leaving them right in the middle of that pain. So that's why the work takes some time because we need to be very gentle with these inner children, if you like, to help them begin to slowly come to terms with it accept that that is what happened and then where can I find the compassion for myself that I went through that as a kid if that was the story that this person's had in front of me Same for someone who's been married for twenty years to someone Had children with someone who's a narcissist, hasas worked for someone for twenty years? Yes. beginning to actually accept What I've observed what I'veelt what I've seen what I know It's true. I'm actually dealing with someone that's like that the hell do I do with it? Yes. Yeah I mean, I think u when you've been in an unhealthy relationship, I guess' Any sort with anyone? Yeah. gettingetting to a point where you can give yourself a little hug and go, o Cool, that was a lot, wasn't it? Like Well done you. I mean, what a What a beautiful place to get to because I think when you're in it I mean, it must be so Mad. I do G Kath think it's just quite difficult because there's so much I want to talk to you about And I'm trying to navigate which kind of avenue I want to go down. I think Let's park parents for a moment because I'd like to go to relationships where I want to talk about the word because the word gaslighting just came to my head. I was sort of thinking, how mad you go when You know, you must be like in this relationship and just thinking What is going on? I just feel I don't know which way I'm going. The word gaslighting I feel like gets banded about a lot all over the place. What does it really mean What it really means is the person you are in most senses, sound of mind your. much as we can who knows? We say in therapy, we call them an apparently normal person. I think apparently apparently, great, great So we observe something, someomeone hurts us, injures us, lets us down in a partnership. and we challenge them elegantly, gently and say, lookook, that actually really hurt me when you did that And they will say, I don't know what you're talking about I never did that You were imagining that or it wasn't as bad as that. You're just, you know, you're being a bit over the top I sometimes wonder if you're a little bit unhinged. I wonder if actually Oh God, you make feel uncomfortable like the way you're saying. But that's what happed. Y. So there's a truth that the narcissist cannot withstand because that would again knock on the mask for them So they've got to very quickly deflect it to you. You've got to be the one that is in some way not getting it. You've misunderstood, you've got it wrong. That's gaslighting An actual factual thing, feeling that's happening, happened, situation that's going on, and they will tell you that black is white and white is black and you're sitting thinking, I'm sure it's not, sure it's not. Yeah, reallyally sure it's not. God, I want this relationship to work. So maybe I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe I've got it a bit wrong, Maybe I'm being a bit over the top. Maybe I'm a bit anxious about this. So we begin to negotiate with ourselves So then we start to gaslight ourselves because is that a thing? Yeah. We begin to w. Yes. So you start accepting untruths about yourself even when you know they're untruths. Yes It's the chipping away. So if you're in a long relationship with someone They start it and it go a bit more and a bit more before you know it, you have dismantled your own sense of self with yourself in order to try and keep this relationship alive. Be they might say, if you really think that about me, then I should probably leave. So then the relationship's in jeopardy. It's not a kind of we've had a disagreement. Let's see how it is tomorrow. canan we find a way to make up or talk it through? They'll go straight to abandonment if they think that's the thing that's going to trigger you up. So they'll threaten the entire relationship because you said actually, it hurt me when you didn't turn up to my play or you didn't support me with my parent at the weekend or you ridic calleded me in front of your friends at dinner last night They cannot take any level of criticism or feedback, so they'll go straight for the jugular level. but it will start with the gaslighting We've got this lovely saying in therapy, which is if it's hysterical, it's hyistorical If it really gets you, if it really winds you up about something, the chances are it's touching on something from your historical past. Wait, and we can all learn from that Like if I could overreact something we've all got a bit of a thing about something Yes. wouldould I be right say it's trigger? Is that a trigger trigger? Okay Do you like the word trigger? I think it's over useded. I think it's everyveryone's triggered with everything. That's why I asked you. it's like peopleople are over triggered. Yes. st Stop being triggered. it's not a trigger That's why I asked if that was a trigger. because I think I think you're right. I think what happens is we all get a word into our vocabulary. It was a bit like gaslighting. Yeah. You know, when somebody goes, you gasl at me and you think, I don't think I did. I just said what I thought. Yeah. that's what I mean. Gaslighting is again, it's about intention If their intention is to get away with the thing you're accusing them of, that's gaslighting. A, sometometimes we misunderstand. so it's about was what's their intent If their intent is, yeah, you've caught me on this and I don't wantan to admit to it, I'm going to gas like you. It's about intent You know when you've got that little idea in the back of your mind, something that You think, you know what, I might do that one day. and then life gets kind of busy and it just sort of stays there. 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With millions of deals on flights, hotels, and rental cars, you can go see the game live D just dream about the trip, book it with prriceline. Download the prriceline app or visit priceline. comot Actual prices may vary, limited time offer the other quite interesting thing around narcissistic relationships is that you were saying sometimes if you've had a narcissistic parent, not all the time, but Sometimes if you've had an narcissistic parent can lead you to find a narcissist attractive Why is that? So we say in our upbringing, even if it's been difficult and hairy It's familiar Yeah And we mix familiarity with safety So something feels familiar, we translate that in our brain as it being safe It's not it's probably very, very unsafe but it's very, very familiar And it's why sometimes people with domestic abuse find another partner. Sometimes if we've grown up with an alcoholic parent, we have a temptation to become because it's familiar. We know this pattern, we feel comfortable in it because it feels safe. It's the complete opposite of safe When I work with people that have eating disorders and things like that again, the eating disorder feels very safe to them. Safe eating, restricted eating because it feels familiar So we have to start identifying for us, is it really safe? What's the interrogation of that thought? or is it simply familiar? So when we have a narcissistic parent who might be quite controlling of us in some form Do we find ourselves attracted to slightly controlling people it's completely unconscious, but unconsciously, Oh, I met them, I met them and I had two dinners, and do you know what I felt like I've known them my whole life. When someone says, to, I met them my whole life, or I've met them, I've three dates, do you know what I think I'm going to marry them I'm literally like stop Let's just check here Is there something in the past that wasn't good? Wait, so let's Yeah, I want to go over that So interesting. So you meet somebodyes and you feel an instant connection. Yes. But if it goes too fast, is a red flag.. Wh? He is a therapist. red flag because I'm wondering what is it you're really connecting to Because when we first meet someone we can't help ourselves, it's completely unconscious, we project onto each other. So you and I' have never met before. so I would have had a load of projections about you before I turned up today. And you might have read a bit of my book or heard something from the producers and thought, I think this is what I'm going to think about, Kathleen It's only when we spend time together that we begin to both dismiss some of those projections and or find new truths about someone because it's a lived experience that we're having.. So in date one, date two, date three, we're pretty much dating our projections Right It's not until something goes a little bit awry or wrong. Like if I spilt my drink over me right now, you'd get to see you get a quick flustered part of me and you'd see a little bit of you know what I was just imagining then? I was like imagining what would happen because I see you as like someone who really knows their sort of and psychology, psychiatist stuff. ye. And it wouldd be really funny if you spilt your drink. And then went absolutely ached it through a proper tantrum and stormed off and you'd be like Who was that? Yeah, you know, that Yeah. It is. I always say to peopleople that friends of mine or whatever, like have you had a row yet? Exactly like a how notot a row, but what we were just saying Yeah when I say I'm saying what I need and someone's been Either brilliant back Yeah or gas lightighty back. That's what you need to say you first off O. Yeah is first. So of course, we notice all the usual stuff, you know, how are they with waitresses and waiters and We notice behaviours I think it's very telling. There's so many things I think on a first dayate. I' just Can you give me few of them? give me a few of them? So wellll notice, you know who's who's driving he's the driving force If you go to the bathroom, how do they wait for you or not wait for you? How are they with the people they're ordering food from Do they observe what you're deciding to eat and then have a conversation about that in some form Might they ask you how long have you got? know how are you getting home? They might check let me know when you've got home safely or not, as the case may be. And everybody will want different sorts of things depending on how we're built, but we'll notice some of these elements. But what we'll notice on dates six, seven, and eight is are they keeping it up Right? Wh's the consistency? Oh okay, sorry, this is so interesting because on a first date you would kind of go, oh, they're this person. Yeah But actually best behavior. proroject. Yes. Yes Okay. It's all about consistency. So narcissists. Yeah, never consistent are on best behaviour though I first with narcissists. I know, I lived it and recovered it Just delicious Gorgeous, delicious. everything you think you've ever wanted and looked at. they'll often ask you what you're looking for and you'll happily tell them and then they'll reflect it all back to you and you think This is amazing They're reading the books I'm reading, They love the same film directors, they like the same music All of you're thinking this this is it likeith This is it. I won the Jack putut You wait till date six seven, eight, nine, ten. seeee what. What's happening then dismissive, starting to devalue this devalue and discard you know sort of putting down what you do for a living, maybe and questioning, isn't therapy just a l of old hcus pocus? They might well believe that, someome people do, but they'd be quite happy to start chipping away. Whereas in dayate one or two, oh my God, amazing that you're a psychotherapist seven eight Hcus pocus. But I think that's interesting with language because you could disagree with somebody about what they do in a way that is agreeable. Yes. Of course Yeah. you know, like we were saying, Do you what's your intention with what you're saying. Yes. If you're like Oh well it's interesting because I'd never really thought of it like that. I'd thought you know Yeah. if someone there's a way of saying it. If they're teasing you, that again, we feel the intent behind it and we feel the energy that's behind it. What is it they're really trying to do when they're saying that. And sometimes I will say what did you mean by that? and see where they go with it. So again, if we ask the right questions, I think the better educated we are actually in dating, there's some brilliant critical questions that we can ask that I think unearth things quite quickly. yeah go. Yeah. So know it's one of the famous questions, which is what's too serious for me to joke about Oh. I mean, okay, Mega, what would be your answer? Mine yeah I would say Race Yes I would say harm to children Those would be my two bigg ones I think. Yeah And then you'd ask someone tellell me more about why The Tell me more question is always beautiful. Because if someone's being performative, if the narcissist is being performative, there'll be very little depth to the answer. Can I just tell you Kathleen but I'm single. I'm telling you, after this podcast Trust me, you're a presenter I'm gonna find you someone. pererfect. I can't wait. Yeah. So just don't you worry about that? Excellent. but you to me are the gift that keeps on giving. because you keep saying things, you keep kind of adding a bit where I go, o That has slightly blown my mind. ye This consistency thing on general narcissism will really help navigate people by the way. Yeah. becausecause you know this is the hot cold Jekylln Hyde. It's the inconsistent you knowness of them and this you know, this sort of intermittent reinforcement. intermittent, absolutely lovely to you and you think this is it. I've finally got there, we're home and dry and then suddenly not again. It's the push pull. You'll feel the push pull a lot with any flavour of narcissists, no matter what relationship you are in with them, you'll feel it they don't know they're doing it Absolutely know they're doing it Okay and it worked. they're doing it because it works. It works. They have to do it to protect and defend This fractured piece of theay behind, right? So this this defence mask has got to be foolproof at all times. If they think that you're onto them And certainly my lived experience was, once they think you're onto them, you've got to be annihilated because you are at danger of pulling that mask right off How long were you in years engaged. Can I Do you mind me asking? you can ask me o. So how old, I mean, are we talking the last six years? No, L how long ago? was it ended three years ago, so it was six years. But you were an adult. I was an adult woman. I was a mother. I was a therapist by then. whichich made it worse, which made it worse Why Well I mean, what I want to ask you is like how How why and all of it. Yeah. So I think being a therapist and being in a narcissist relationship was almost the double bind that nearly took my life in a way because I was an adult, I was a mother And I was a woman of the world. I was a chief executive for her business. I got myself sorted. I was sorted. And I thought I'd found the perfect person, amazing Early signs were there And I'm a therapist So I think there's something going on with this person. I can feel it. I can pick it quite quickly. It was, you know, within the first three to six months and odd behaviours and things. And I thought I'm a therapist I'm older an an older woman. So there's not loads of them out there. I need to make it work, that was my wound could help make it work, That's my rescuer, maybe a bit of ego. I'm a therapist, so I'm used to working with personality disorders. So if I really, really work hard at this, if I study him and I really try and understand what's going on for him and maybe about his childhood and maybe he's had a difficult life and maybe, maybe, maybe maybe, I can make it work And so I stayed way too long at the fair because I was a therapist this sense of hope. and I learnnt my lesson the hard way. I'll never do it again. And there was another final part to that Davina, which is the shame. The shame of being a grown up woman who runs the business who has brought her children up, you know they're fantastic and gorgeous And and I'm a therapist And I'm in an abusive relationship and I can't tell anyone. because I'm so ashamed because I should know better compleplete trap and in a way a win for them. Perfect for them. I couldn't have been more attentive to what they wanted and what they needed and tried to correct all the gaslighting and tried to get them to read books and watch films and come to therapy and all sorts of things. And they were safe in the night that you couldn't tell anyone. couldouldn't tell anyone And you know their mask wasn't going to come off. That was super glued on And I did everything I could to dissolve that and say, I know who you are behind it and it's okay. I'll love you anyway Actually, I should have packed my little bags and run for the hills, but I didn't So you were saying that actually when you do find out who they are, it is all out war It's all at war. on onnce they know that you're onto it. Yeah. What was that like? I mean, complete annihilation of me. So anything I would do, say, want to be at, whatever. So things like, you know, I had an operation I needed to have four hour general anesthetic on the morning said, sorry, I can't be there. I'm busy at work died during COVID The next day, he said, let's end the relationship. know, I don't w want to be around your sadness. Went to the funeral on my own during COVID. things like that, things that if you explain them and this is I think important to get on to, you explain it to an apparently normal person and you can see them thinking What are you doing on Hey, what are you doing? of course? Surely it can't have been exactly like that. Particularly if they know the person. They seem so lovely and gentle and charming when one was a covert They seem so giving and lovely, etcetera Something else must have gone on in that story. Yeah He's omitted M be something else really, really wasn't. So you're trapped in a sense of I've also got sunk cost fallacy. You know, I've stayed so long bet so many chips at the poker table, I've got to make it work. Yes. I can't I can't have lost all the money and walked away. Do you remember that filming deccent proposal? Yes. Robert Redford or whatever. They've bet all their money So they cannot then walk. They've got to hope that if I dis bet a few more chips, it might come good. It's got to come good. Yeah Yeah So that was their story. but my story and it was I went into it thinking, I'm older, I might not find anyone My distorted belief was that this could be my last chance. I really thought it was my last chance to get married, settle down in a happy ever after. And so that was the work I then had to go back and do with my amazing therapist to say, what was that that we need to heal so that if you ever come into this situation again, you would never stay And also, I think, You being good at your job was almost a problem because you werere like fix you Yeah know, I've done it to so many people Yeah and for so many people that U I've got these baseline feelings, so let's kind of heal you so you can become perfect. What was interesting when I was training, you know you do, know term or two mean it's five a half years of training. you do a couple of terms on personality disorders. Back when I trained, I think we must have done five minutes on narcissism. There was nothing. So I didn't understand it at all at that point. It was only when I was trying to understand what the hell was going on and then went and studied under sort of specific professors that have really research narcissism that suddenly the whole world of it opened up to me. and at that point I was like Oh my God, I really am with one. I really am. You asked the question thereough a second ago about do they know what they're doing which I get asked a lot? Yes. Well because because you feel like ye, they must see a pattern beavior and it's that it's cruel. Yes And they do deep down. Yes, becausecause the reason we know that is the minute the lights, camera action are on in whatever part of their life I don't do it Oh, I see.es. So when they're out in public. Yes, not just alone with you. They would neveright. They would never ever do it. And towards the end when things were particularly hairy, every now and again something would be happening and I'd think, you know what? going to try and film it or record it because it's the only way that I can And the minute they realized That's the cruel reality when you realize, oh my God, you can control the way that you're behavving.. And it's really it's very disturbing Yes to see that in someone. It's really not just in someone, someone that you love love someone that you are well intended towards But once you finally truly accept it You know you have to leave. and then it's about and Is it about how do I do it because they make it very difficult for you to leave? Not necessarily. someome of them do. They'll be very manipulative with you to, you know we call it hoovering. You know, they'll write you letters and send you mix tapes and you know tell you actually I used to have one this my one said to me Look, here's a house that I think we should buy. know I've put in for the I've put in for us to go and see it next Tuesday. And was that the dream that wasam ye together Yeah. So all the things that we call it bread crrumbing or future faking. So they know the story that you want to be true. So suddenly they'll come right back in with It's fine. We'll buy the house, we'll do the thing, we'll all the things that we were meant to have. And so you think, maybe because you wanted to be true. So maybe this is going to be what happens. So you go back in and within a matter of weeks, you're straight back in. It is like domestic abuse and I do think we need to accept that psychological abuse is as abusive We just don't have any bruises. we don't want anyone to have any bruises, but we don't have any bruises and that's what makes it difficult. If you turned up to work or at their parents or you know your best friends with king great big black eyes, people would act, people would have an opinion, people would come into the rescue All they've got are your stories. don't quite add up. and it's a bit like you said that people go 't be We know them. We see them when we're out, they're lovely. It can't be that bad. It's quite an interesting protection mechanism. It's very, very clever. It's very cle makes again, it makes you look a bit mad. It's like perfect bit in diseray Yeah ye We call it reactive abuse. you know you take so much of it that eventually, you know you have a bit of a meltdown or you'll go to a dinner party where in the car on the way there They've been absolutely hell on wheels. So you turn up and you put your smile on, but it's pretty clear that your central nervous system is all over the show. But they're fine but they're fine. So theirir friends are probably thinking, Yes, she was a bit strange at that dinner They have no idea what' going going on in the car on the way there But it's it's rightening you know want to say other things and we've touched on it a bit, but I definitely want to deep dive into this because there will be lots of people watching who are parents. Yes. And I've got two girls and a boy and I know that you know all relationships when you're a kid and you're growing up and you're and you're going through puberty and everything's changing and school is like sometimes a battlefield, isn't it? for some It is. But u This kind of group mentality a sort of pack Bullying wasas it What did you call it When there's a narcissism with like a person, one person who's the head of everything the PTA for adults, but is it communal? Is it possible to have that? in kids Yes, school. Absolute friendships. Of course in schools. So all of these are what we know what we'd call sort of systemic they're systems in some form, social systems. And in every social system, there is normally a scapegoat. There's a common enemy horribly. Yes, o in a group. Yeah. You've also got the leader of the pack that everyone looks up to for variousasons. They're talking scapegoat, that's generally the kid that's bullied Iid get this bullied ago. the one was ridiculed, bullied, blamed. All of those things horrible. Yeah. And if you are that in a group at school, veryy, very difficult to undo it. It normally means you need to change school schools year group, you know, or go to the other know if there's six classes, you go to the other one over here. Wait. I want to say that again. for parents because I know a lot of parents who will have had the scapegoat. and we'll be thinking I'm going to keep them here. it'll get better next year. d I think that is a brilliant piece of advice because I think sometimes you think Oh Let's not move them because it's such a And we think we want to teach them to work it through. as we do. we want stand up to our children, of course. St up to them or whatever forms we have. I think it's okay to teach them those things to start with and see if it has any manoeuverability But if a kid's been cancellled in a group, if you like horrible language, but it's now happening, or they're constantly, it's weeks and it's months of this Genuinely as a therapist, I would say, I've seen too many people struggle for too long. Yeah. takeake them out, help them to settle somewhere better. And also, you want them to go and settle somewhere better before they're broken. That's the thing. Yeah. These belief sets that we get in long before we leave home They're with us forever unless we work them out probably later in life in therapy.ople know People that are in their forties, fifty, sixties will come to me now and talk about bullying even now and the impact it had on them. I do a lot of work with the stacking dolls. I'm sort of known for it and I will talk about what ages were you when certain things really hurt, right And often it will be an early teenage incident where they'll say this happened at school and that will be impacting them in their fifties and sixties even now I mean, that is fascinating, isn't it? Yeah. that you can still be carrying that around s And I wonder how these groups, you know so the person sometimes the leader of the pack might have some narcissistic Tes and how they would feel if they saw that person later on in life You know, whether it would just all happen all over again. Oen not, because often something's happened for them to even become that person in the group Often there's a story going on for all the members and we can have some empathy for all the members. Why is that kid the need to take that role in some form, right? So there's something going on for them I'm a huge advocate of going back and finding some of the people that have hurt you and seeing whether or not it would be safe and appropriate to have a conversation. How are you? I do it now with people and their parents. so I will teach them using empty chair technique, a gestalt technique and then in real life, rehearsing, going and finding the parent Wait, when you say gestalt technique is the name of the technique. the names the Gestalt therapy, which is a particular form of therapy Empty chair work is a very well known technique, where we put a chair And we would imagine your mum in the chair now. Oh okay. What might you want to say to her? So we'd rehearse that and that ofen if they've passed, that's the only way we can do it But if they are still here, we might be very, very terrified of them, but we might decide slowly to find a way to go and spend an afternoon and say, listen, there's a conversation I need to have with you Having the conversation as an adult on behalf of the little child, I imagine you've put the child on your knee And you're saying, I'm going to speak for my little Kathleen. And she will say to the mother, the father, the partner of the bully at school, This is what it was like for me when you did that. I just need you to know that And it's the only time in therapy we're not interested in a two way conversation. In that work, we're letting the little girl say This is what this is what happened when you did that to me Has it ever happened to you that that went badly wrong people aren't prepared A they go in too quick too soon? Right. So as a therapist, I work and work and work on the person. and I always can tell because I can tell what's going on for them somatically, what's going in the body. What does that mean? So Somatically is what's going canan you feel it? S people say, my God, even the thought that my mum's in that chair , I've got an erased heartbeat,' got sweaty palms, you know, something's kicking off in my body. So it's a physical reaction Pysical reaction to even the imagination of them to an imaginary thing. Yeah, Right a school bully maybe in that instance. If we've worked long and hard enough and they actually want to do it, it's up to them and ready When we do the final rehearsal, they'll say My central nervous system is perfectly online. Wow. abbsolutely fine. I'm ready So they've done it that many times. many times that they they've them has said safe, I'm safe. Now once we've done that, whether they actually have the conversation or not is slightly immaterial, but many people that do do it say it freed me all those years and all those feelings that I had. I finally said what I needed to say. Lots of people say s I'm worried about what my parent would say back to me, what my ex partner would say back to me, what my school bully would say. We're not interested. It's the only time of therapy. We're not interested in what they would say And also I guess like if they're really worried about what they might say, then they're not ready to go. Okay, notot ready. Okay. It's about us being able to speak up. part that never, ever found the courage ability space to do so That's why it's so beautiful because they finally get the chance to be seen and Their reaction is immaterial, particularly their narcissist, they're not going to really care us anyway. Yeah. Other than we maybe angry, but we don't care be angry. It's about saying I've said what I needed to say and I can leave that there and I never have to carry it ever again. It's yours now That's brilliant to hear as well. I think if you've been a victim, yes, of a narcissistic anybody. and it's really affected you That visual you've just done that. Yeah is very powerful. We literally take all those feelings, we make sure we've seen them, accepted them, had some sense of compassion for them, and then we're like, okay, I'm ready. It's time. Here it is. Thankk you very much Do you know I think u A really powerful tool is when you realize that you can advocate for yourself that is feels like that. Yeah U that You don't need somebody to apologise. you need to go and advocate for yourself, but you need to be in a place where you are doing it, not expecting or needing anything in return, you're done. But validation is very interesting with narcissistic abuse because the risk of course is if as you've just said, we're seeking their validation. I mean, good luck, you know They're not going to say you're absolutely right. I'm a dreadful person. I've got this terrible personality disorder. So if we're waiting them to say, you know what? I was awful We're going to be waiting very. We't be disappointed. Where we can get validation is from people that understand narcissistic abuse. and that's why you know any group, whether it's AA you know, whether it's a Is there a narcissaristic abuse? Thatroup isn't in the UK. Oh. And if I could get funding to set it up, Oh, set it up tomorrow because I found when I was in my recovery, when I found other people that had really experienced it It's like a shorthand where they're like First of all, I completely and utterly believe you. Secondly, did they do a bit of stuff like that? and you're like, o my go, totally. And then you can actually feel they get it, I'm safe to tell them the stories.. Because often these stories are quite convoluted because it's quite insidious and so confused.. So I think we definitely need this because it's so insidious, it's great idea It's definitely needed, and I find that the validation in that sense is incredibly helpful. I actually found the X two partners of my narcissist and I sat with them both across it was a three decade and The abuse was identical And it was shocking but it was the most healing It released me from everything. It was amazing and I'm still very grateful to them today Did they they knew he was going out with you? Yeah And were they thinking, o, maybe he's changed. Maybe she's changed him. The ex wife When I contacted her said, I wondered how long I wondered how long it would be before you contacted me In NA, they used to say the value of one addict helping another is without parallel and the value of one victim That's narcissism helping another victim of narcissism is without parallel. It's that deep Yeah rooted empathy that nothing can beat. Nothing can beat. Yeah. and it's got similar dynamics, you know, people fall off the wagon in the sense that they go back to their nist. How common is that? Oh, we say it's very similar to addiction. seeven or eight times would be the average times you'll go back. Wow Tuma bonding The trauma bonding weven' talked about trauma bonding is the very centre of the pain What is that? Trauma bonding is that You feel that you cannot live without them. They're my one and only, they're my last chance So we get bonded in that. And what happens is when they discard you, you go through the devastation of being left or discarded. and then they say a month later Here's the house. hereere's the promise. hereere's the And your whole body is flooded with dopamine and you're like relief, we're back together again It's a brain chemical, it's just as strong. They say in some quarters and I hope this won't offend anybody that's had any heroin issues, but it's as strong as heroin addiction, trauma bonding, because the anticipation and then the relief is a very similar chemical cycle that you go through and we call it trauma bonding in narcissistic relationships. Wow I cannot be without them. I have to be with them. I've got to make it work breaks and we have we go through cold turkey. it's so hideous. They come back and say you want another hit and you're like Yes Please I've changed It's going be different. Yeahah.. I've learned my lesson. I nearly lost you But six or seven times. Six or seven times. So the family and friends and colleagues they go sick and tired of Oh Godd. because the further they time they're like than God, you're leaving them and after a while they're like listen and she's back with him again. him or her can't be bothered to you know, she's bound to go back to him. So then you're even more isolated Wh's no ones supporting you anymore. They've sort of sicken and tired it all that is like an abusive relationship because then That isolates you even more from the people that care about you and it's great for the abuser. Yeah. So isolation is there twice. A you can't say what they're really doing to you because you think I should leave them then because they are doing that to me, and you'll never believe me because they appear so gorgeous in reality. And when they finally believe you and you leave them, if you go back you've lost their support So the isolation is very central to narcissistic relationships. In families, you might be the one sibling that speaks up and says This is what's going on. The whole family will close in get rid of you. They put it under the carpet, you are then ostracised from the family for daring to speak up happens in boardrooms. I see it all the time, happens in friendship groups. I want to talk about boardrooms because that's the area we haven't really kind of touched on yet and work. You mentioned earlier and I thought this was such a really otent Obviously because I'm self employed I work in TV cast literally I've never met someone mean. like I just everybody that I seem to work with is just joyful in a cutthroat business situation in a company You know, your income depends on it. Your whole livelihood is dependent on you staying in this business.. And things are tough at the moment potential for a narcissist to really take advantage of staff How does that present itself Start at the beginning, which isvard Harvard studies have showed us this. Narcissists are brilliant at interviews Mm, first date, same thing. Oh my god, of course. Secondly, if you read a standard job description for a chief executive or a chief anything Cfidence, deliberateness you know, can speak really well in public can instruct people well narcissists, charismatic. We are advertising for these people. That's the irony of it. We're calling for them And then eighteen months later when it's all Guse my French gone to shit. We're then like, o God, have you seen what they're like? If they're in a leadership role, they can be very persuasive You know money makes the world go round. They might be making a lot of money for a business But the collateral damage of the people that are working for them is unbelievable And the way I talk about it is, you know on corporate boards, we have governance, you know for risk policy for all sort of stuff. What is governance? Governance you're a trustee or you're a board member of a board. I'm a trustee for the NSPCC, for example. Governance is about making sure the business is being run well and safely and within the rules of operation. So you have a duty of care. So we have governance for policy, for risk For lots for finance, you'll have people that are singularly governing those things We have nobody governing behaviour. Nobody The only people we might think about Is HR? I call them human remains because actually what they're doing is they're at the directive of the CEO So they don't even have, even if they wanted to, they don't have the power to question The CEO is doing. Right So there is no power check for these people. They are free to do as they wish. and if they're bringing the money into the business behaviour is swept under the carpet. But this is really interesting because not only have you now got to start NA. Yeah u narcissist anonymous, but you've also now got to change that. in the boardroom. That is not right. It's not right. Someone someone has to hold the CEO accountable completely.ow really going to campaign strongly for this. Yes. I've just finished my next book'sline Mighty and it's all about that. What are we going to do about it? Everyone says, well, the CEO doesn't have a boss. They've probably got shareholders, they've got investors from the city. There willll be other people that fundamentally can. And so I've come up with this sort of is a bit cheeky, but the strategy is, do you stay at this business play as in do you utilize it to your use for a period of time or do you slay I'm not condoning anyone kills anybody. But Say means how do we get rid of a narcissistic boss? Yes. And the only way you can do it is not as an individual. You've got to do it as a collective So you have to form a coup If a lot of you on the board of the business say we cannot work with him or her any longer to the shareholders, the investors or whatever Funnily en find they'll get rid of them. So there's a whole world now we've got to look at about how do we manage our way through these people because they are rife. I talk about about the dark triad. Narcissism, Machiavellianism and psychopathy. That's the dark's psychopathy. Psychopath tendenies. Oh, I see. People donselt doesn't caret they don't care Yeahah yeah yeah. Okay. When they did the research, in the general population Davina, one percent has got It feels like quite a lot a lot Business. Iuess what? No, how many? four percent? Oh Oh my God. Are you serious four hundred percent more psychopaths in the workplace because leadership, if you've got leadership ability, unfortunately, you may well have some of the dark triad traits. BeCause they want that. if you're going to have to sack a load of people, they don't want anybody with any feelings, you've just got to do it. Absolutely. And they see that as a bonus. Oh God, it's awful. Research twenty percent have high narcissistic traits percent a lot of people. W. So statistically in business, we are more likely to find these personality disorders than in the commonal dating everyday life. And that's why we've got to bring it to everybody's attention in a way that we can think about, are you that boss? And if you are, You know, you're leaving a legacy of harm. Do you want to go to therapy and do something about it if it's traits and personality, not the disorder? If you're one of the people suffering, what can we do to help you? If you're an investor, if you're a bystander. If you're in the team and you're seeing it happen and you don't know what to do to help the person be in a group at school What are you going to do about it? So I'm on a mission to start looking at what we do in workplaces. It would work the same in schools, work the same in friendship groups. Any there was a group of people What can we do to start getting this right That's in a school group, you know, There are sometimes u like there's sometimes one person who kind of secretly will go off and Be nice person that's being bullied and goes, you know, Sorry like this is happening to you, but then they're too frightened to do that when the gang is together. Totally the same business. It will be You can see you're being bullied in the board meetings or in the sales meetings or whatever meetings, but they can't they feel they can't speak up because it could be their job on the line and it's their mortgage on the line. So it's really high stakes. It's huge stakes, isn't it?? And at school, it's like life and death. Of course, out of that gang then done Um PTA meeting, you know, if you st your kids are at that school for the next few years, that one person could make your life a nightmare. It is It's really hard all that power. So will you just remind me us the name of the book? It's called Sly and Mighty. That's such a good because they' mighty. that's very good. They're mighty, but they're really soding sly. And so how can we really expose the slyness of their behaviour? which will help us decide can we get mighty with the Sly And tools. you're giving everybody loads of tools great. So in both my books starts off with what the hell is it? whatever it is. This is amazing for tools. It really really is. What is it? is thed first third. How does it look in real life is the middle third in both books? The final third is, okay, what are we going to do about it? And there's so much we can do about it that's where the hope And I'd just like to also say to any CEOs watching, donon't forget there are eighty percent that are good Yes. you're not all bad. just wanted to say that You know, we we got to p big up the good guys. Total girls. And when they're good, it's so extremely wonderful. I've had so many bosses in my lifetime. in the main, they've been absolutely amazing. And I credit so much of what I've been able to become because of them. this is the thing. But like great teachers, like great partners, you've just said with Michael. Yes. When we get it right, it changes our life for the better Oh my Godd, like literally I'm just gonna hold this up again. Kathleen Thank you, Kathleen Saxton. She's written this amazing book My parent, the Peacock to say I think My kids might say that about me I I do stress about in like ridiculous outfits and everything. But I like to feel like I I make up for it another other way, so like, you know I' got but my parent the peacock and u Sly and mighty Sly and mighty coming out in September U so yeah We've got you covered. Cathan's got you covered And thanks so much. That was absolutely brilliant. Round of applause for Kathleen, please. Thank you. So just in case you missed this episode here, U If you love this episode, I know you're going to love that