Embracing Power in Menopause

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There was paparazzi trying to photograph me in the care home at my school. That was completely bonkers that you were that young. It feels like you withstood horrific amounts of press intrusion. I had Atlanta, my daughter at nineteen and the media was so brutal about my body post pregnancy. Amanda De Flabonet orrible body sham. I was wrapped up in my consumption of drugs and alcohol. and I said, I've gott to get out of here. I can't take this. I got sober at twenty two. But what I realized was I'm a storyteller and I loved photography. I was on the cover of GQ at the time, and I went in with like a little box of photos to say, Hi, here's my work, Would you hire me as a photographer? You're such a hustler, I love you. How did the conversation start? The cononversation TV series. Yeah. I basically ask women, please come to my house and we're going to talk about difficult issues for women. I can sit opposite Jane Fndnder, Hillary Clinton, Miley Cyrus prove that, if you have an idea, you can make something. sometometimes you just have to say Nay I Vina McCle, happappy to have you here in front of me. because, um Well, not only are we good, very good old friends. Old friends. I was thinking about how old I was when I met you I was fourteen Yeah And you were my model booker. I was nineteen. And it was the beginning of my career. like very beginning. And you were just fantastic. What a career you've had Okay, I'm not going interview you. I'm sorry. But I'm not But I think what is interesting is that I saw so much of myself even back then I felt really at nineteen maternal. towards you because I had been where you'd been, I started going out at fourteen, fifteen. and you were going out clubbing at that age.. So could you just explain to sort of anybody watching now? because It's so different now. Yeah what life was like for a young girl trying to get into a nightclub It was actually quite easy because I looked older than I was. I started developing boobs when I was like twelve. and so I suddenly went from being invisible to very visible. I was super curvy And it was very easy to get into clubs. You know, no one asked for an ID. E. Never, never, ever, ever And in many ways, it was like you know, I'm like the last generation before the internet And thank God, because my stuff was on the cover of all the tabloids if the internet had have been around it would have been even worse than what it was. So I mean, I think in many ways, there was a lot of fun was had Although when I think about like my kids at fourteen Going out to clubs and the people, it was a lot of older men that I was around. And of course, they want young girls in clubs. So they're like, yeah, come on in When I think back to you you particularly were very vulnerable but at the same time, really wanting to be seen as a grown up and enjoying kind of attention which was the same I totally ag. But I'd like to just go back to your parents because I sometimes think like but where were they? what was going on I thought as well. Yeah. So what was it like for you growing up before they got divorced U you know, it's interesting because being back in London, I have a story on so many street corners here. Do you know what I mean? There's so many streets that I go to. I'm like o Oh my, I did this and this here. and That's been one of the reasons why I've stayed away for so long because I didn't know that I could handle Being back here, you know, I sort of left the UK as a massive trauma response being you tabloid fodder at such a young age, which was so detrimental to my sense of self. So I didn't come back here for years. but I've really loved walking around and just remembering all the different experiences I had. And I've been thinking, where were my parents? you know? My dad was, you know racing cars. He was a race car driver and that was his passion. And he was Mega, right?? He was amazing. He was a brilliant charismatic , you know, innovator that kind of really came from N not a lot and made made a life for himself. And so his first passion was racing cars and it remained that way throughout my life. you know He was off having a career And I think my mom couldn't really cope with me. I think, you know, when I was Teenagers are difficult, you know? And in hindsight, I don't think I was any more difficult than what the average teenager is. I have to say, now having raised three teenagers, I'm not particularly alarmed by how I was at that age, given my own kids, but I just think she didn't have the resilience and the support to be a single mom raising a teenager. You know So I mean, your dad was off racing. Yeah. she had a kid and she was at home trying to br when you were in alone. Yes and didn't and really just didn't have the You know, the thing about generational trauma, is that You know, if you're raised by people who weren't raised by people, who weren't raised by people How the fuck do they know what to do Yeah? They're just going on instincts, you know And so she did what she could based on what she knew, which was not a lot She wasn't raised by anyone And that person wasn't raised by anyone. That person was raised by nannies and that person was raised by nannies. So it kind of makes sense I mean, it It's interesting as well because for you and I'm Please tell me if I'm wrong, but this was my experience. When I was in France and there were no boundaries. I was like, o, this is great. Oh yeah, of course. I can go out. Yeah. likeike whenever I want. Yeah I mean, I think Having boundaries, I don't know how different my life would have been. I think my mother tried to put boundaries in, but I just went straight over them. You know I was forceful and I was determined to have a life that was different than the one that was expected of me, you know, And so I I was very committed to building a life for myself. I wanted to be financially independent from a young age. I did not want to rely on anyone. What made you want that Had you seen something where you were like, hang on a minute My mum is reliant on my dad or Yes, when my My parents separated. My mother did not know. she didn't have any skills She did not know how to provide for my brother and I financially. And so she went from this kind of like bougie Chelsea life to like working in you know, the chippy down the road. And it was really shocking for her. and it was a huge adjustment. And I saw that and I thought, I will never be reliant upon someone else to provide for me and you know, I was fififteen, when I got my job hosting The word And I was so grateful because I could then buy my own school shoes You know what I mean? It was like I was like, I've now got income and I can provide for myself. and it was That's why I talk to women a lot about financial autonomy and how important it is, even if you're in a partnership, like have your own bank account, do your own bills, write your own checks, balance your own accounts, like really learn financicial literate, be financially literate so that you You can make the choices you want in your life. You can have the freedom to say, I don't have to stay here because I can afford to leave, or I don't have to stay in this job that is undermining me or not paying me enough because I can afford to go and do a job somewhere else And I think that is one of the greatest freedoms. And I saw that early on, early on, I was like, I must have that How vulnerable were you to predatory men? because You were saying you were out fourteen years. Yeah. It's a dangerous place to be. Yeah We all know that from that time. Yeah, deffinitely. I mean you know, I definitely was independent and I definitely and you know learned to take care of myself at a young age of necessity I think I was very Um Looking back I think I was definitely in situations that were nonc consensual because as a fourteen year old girl You don't really have the wherewithal to know what you're consenting to when you're with men who are much older And it's interesting because my Boved Torana Bke is the founder of the Me too moveovement and I've done I've been active with that initiative and There were many stories that came back to me where I was like, Ha, that was nonconsensual. That was nonconsensual. What does consent mean And u you know, I just decided to not follow follow up on any of those things for my own personal reasons, but I think I was very susceptible because I wanted to belong to someone You know, like I had this feeling of like, will someone please take ownership of me because I'm a kid, I'm fourteen And I'm not getting parented and I don't know who I belong to So I knew that Being an independent person and giving the vibe that I didn't need anyone was the way to go. but I don't think that's how I really felt inside Yeah M might be a bit sad Yes, it's sad. It's very sad. It's such a vulnerable place to be, isn't it? Yeah You know, and I guess I'm identifying with you where you get yourself into situations and you don't know What's going on and you're still trying to pretend to be an adult. Yeah, but you're suddenly feeling very vulnerable. and then you decide not to do anything about it. I'm still like can hand Well, you know who I think was so inspiring? I don't know what it did for you in terms of things that have happened to you in the past W was Chiseelle Pellic Oh my Godd, I mean talking. Wow. What did it bring up Yes. stuff for you.. really did for me. Definitely Yeah Definitely. I mean, I think you know, a big part of my story as you know, is that this kind of Before I got sober and after I got sober.. Yeah. and everything that kind of happened before I got sober at twenty two Every that happened before was largely wrapped up in my consumption of drugs and alcohol, you know, so my decision making was very reactive instead of from a mindful place And it was really just about survival. And so a lot of the choices I made were just because I was trying to survive And then once I got sober at twenty two I was the first time that I had real agency over myself where it was like, Hmm, hang on a minute. Do I want to do this thing What are the consequences if I do this? What are the pros and cons? And I I for the first time in my life had a kind of mindfulness I had never experienced before because When you're drinking and doing a lot of drugs, you just don't have the same agency over yourself So that was kind of I look at my life as like before sobriety and then after sobriety I think another very sad thing of before sobriety is the situations that and And I will talk about myself here that I got into that I I was young And I basically thought that it was my fault because I'd let myself get into that dangerous situation and somebody taken advantage of me.. And I think, well, it's your fault, you know, don't do that again And that's how I I all my life. I mean, I realized when I was older, have you like had maybe therapy where you've kind of gone God like, all my life, I've kind of blame myself for taking these decisions. or did you know at the time, Oh, I know this is wrong, I need to get away? I didn't know at the time. I mean, I experienced When I was fourteen years old, I experienced a sexual assault um at you know, like a party in the country in England and I remember coming back on the train with my clothes all ripped and I didn't tell anybody because I thought if I told my mom she's going to say, I told you, she shouldn't have gone out And so that person I used to see them on the street afterwards and I had this terrible that assaulted you. Yeah. I had a terrible feeling of shame that it was like It was like a feeling in my stomach of like this being so small and that I had done something wrong And I came to realize when I got sober and I did a lot of work around around, you know a sex inventory basically, that that was not my fault. actually was the responsibility of the man who chose to do that despite me saying, no, I don't want to do that And so I don't feel like I've taken ownership of that. I've done a lot of therapy and a lot of work on freeing myself from being. And also I don't feel victimized you know, I've done a lot of work to kind of understand and have compassion for myself As that fourteen year old girl, I was doing the best I could do. You know, and I made the choices I made Um, you know, and really to have compassion for myself You know, Amanda was a fourteen year old girl who was really desperate for attention and really wanted to be admired and loved and seen. And that led me down paths that were not healthy. I was very S shhocked hear about you going into care. I never knew that. Can you just explain how that happened? Yeah, it's kind of shocking actually. and it's only now I'm writing a book at the moment and it's only now when I work with my editor and she's like, wait, you were in a children's home. You were a ward of court. that I'm kind of realizing the gravity and the impact that that had on me. So I was I moved out of my house,, my mother's house And it was very difficult to live with my mother at the time. She had her own emotional struggles going on And I How were How old were you? I was fourteen. I mean almost fifteen. Yeah. It's nuts to think that. Where did you go? I went to I stayed at different friends' houses. I remember sleeping under my best friend's desk Hello at one point. at her mom's house. Nuts No, it's ns. If any of our kids did, it would be like I'd never allow it But I basically was arrested and I was because I was reported as a missing person I wasn't because my parents knew where I was But I was it's a long story that I amm writing about at the moment. but I will say that I was made a ward of court, meaning that your parents no longer have jurisdiction of you. and wasas this because you were arrested and they were like, whereere are your parents? Why are you not living parentsre not looking after you Eactly. Okay But did your momum go, I want to look after her? No, My mom And I've been reading all the social workers' records at the moment. How's that? It's fascinating. It's really filling in the blanks for me in some areas that therapy couldn't because I'm getting to read the psychologist and the therapists notes and observations of me and things that I said and my parents and our interactions. Wow. I've been able to putull a lot together It's been really helpful spepending time at White City Children's home was when I was, you know, a very public person and on you know, there was I was on the cover of a lot of tabloids and You know, there were TV shows talking about what had happened to me that I had gone into care U It was One of the most terrifying experiences of my life And it was also a phenomenal gift because it taught me in no uncertain terms that no matter what our zip code is, we're all having a human experience and we're all trying to live life And you know, some of us just have more support and tools than others. And so I saw kids that came from very different backgrounds to me and were in there for very different reasons to me that they felt in a very similar way to the way I did And so I learned to connect with people through their emotional experience as opposed to the outside stuff You know, maybe I had like, you know, fancier shoes But the way we felt was very similar. And it was my first exposure to really understanding that you know humanity and life experiences are what connect all of us you know, whether you' driving like you know, whatever car you're driving or zip code you live in, you're not exempt from life's experiences. And it taught me that and it taught me how to pretty much connect with anyone. I can find something similar about practically anyone. If I'm on the tube or I'm waiting in line for a coffee or wherever I meet random people, if I talk long enough, I'll find some common ground with anybody taught me that and I'm so grateful that I had the opportunity to learn that. commommander. Can I just already say What a life? Iire am ti I had no idea of We were sort of superficially connected. partartying Yes, clubbing, modeling superficial I just I'm sort of sitting here going like Yeah, I know. and it I I know I feel such compassion for little you. Little Amanda. Yeah, I know. You talked about going into care and about how seeing all these different people from different places, but you're all the same. Yeah You were very different in you were famous and none of them probably were. How did you navigate that? Because that's really hard. and also Did you because I knew you then, you were out all the time, but were you allowed out when you were in care? No did you go clubbing? No? No, no, no, no. I was driven to school every day in a police van to Holland Park compomrehensive police would bring me in up to my classroom and I would have to do my classes and then the end of the class said, walk me to the next class. And then at the end of the day, I was taken back to the care home. And it was very odd because there was a lot of media attension and a lot of You know, paparazzi trying to photograph me in the care home at my school. Oh my go. Yeah, I know it was really. It's just nut. It was nuts. Like the shame. talk about shame You know, L it was I just felt like there was a sort of light, a beacon pointing at me all the time. Like look at her, you know, she's done all these things that are unacceptable. But the thing is at the time, you're just like, you're just trying to survive. like I was in survival mode for so longes that it's only really now and in writing this book that I'm sort of really connecting with how traumatic and scary that was, you know, for L at a fourteen, fifteen year old Amander. to be in that situation, but I was so used to being in scary situations. that I think I just toughed it out and just you know, just got through. you know, when you're just in survival mode, you're just like, I need to get through the day. you know And and just and I've also realized just because I can handle a lot, It doesn't mean that I have to And so now when things get to be kind of you know, the first stage of a lot I'm like, okay, I don't have to do this. I can stop as opposed to, oh, I can take a lot more You know, because I've been conditioned to take a lot more because of my life experience But I don't have to do that anymore That is very interesting, isn't it? Resilience also comes with a burden of like I can do anything, but actually Exactly. It's a burden. One of the lovely things about being in London right now and I was saying this to to Ella, my daughter, who's nineteen, because Ella hasn't really been with me in London as an adult And so she was like, Mom, all these people come up to you and say, you know, and are excited to meet you. And Ella's got no clue what my life was like here 'causeuse she lives with me in LA. And she're just momum. Yeah, I'm just you're mother. yeah But what is so lovely being here now is that it's the first time that I've been back here in so long where like I'm not really a famous person anymore. There's people that grew up with me on TV So they they come up to me and are sweet and lovely and excited and then that anyone who's like you know, under forty, like doesn't know anything about me And so it's so nice to be able to walk around. And I've noticed that I don't look at the ground when I walk around. I look up and I can meet people's eyes without that flicker of recognition And that flicker of recognition for so many years would induce a feeling of shame inside me. And so I just couldn't come here. And so it's been so freeing. to be able to be here And A, I've dealt with that shame and understood that You know I have compassion for myself as that young person, that young woman, and just people don't know my don't know my history. You know, And it it's been a whole different experience and it's been it's been lovely You know, I'm like, I don't really want to go back to L.A. I think I could stay here a bit longer Yes, We' keep you. Yes Maybe, don't go back. I know I might stay a bit longer. Yeah. Yes. I know plubbing Can you imagine? Can you imagine for your birthday? Yeah, my birthday. Oh my is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney pllus. We're somewhere in the Gulf of Hailand. Getting us out of here shouldould be your focus. I'm your boss. 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So you can spend less time worrying about insurance and more time enjoying the ride. Download the State Farm app or go online at statefarm dot com like a good neighbor State Farm is there. Get businessusiness done with the new American Express Graphite Business Cash Unlimited card, with unlimited two percent cashback on all eligible purchases, Unlimited five percent cashback on flights and prepaid hotels booked through American Express travel online, and a flexible spending capacity that can grow with your business. You'll have the confidence to keep building. Apply today and earn a welcome offer of one thousand five hundred dollars cashback After you spend fifty thousand dollars in qualifying purchases on your new card within the first six months of card membership, Terms apply learen more at go. Aamic slash graphi. God, amazing. I'm gonna to do like a women's circle. Yeah. Great. Yeah, that's what I'm gonna do. Isn't it funny like how we work differently now? I like every night I go to bed listening to RamDas like who I know. I know, S I've got my de my deep sleep four eighty five kilohertz music to sleep to, you know, I know. it's really crazy. Frequencies, yes.. they're really helpful. They're reallyally helpful. When you came out of care, how long did they keep you in there for I don't really know because I don't remember and I I was thinking about it, isn't it? Yeah. I mean When I when I got out of care, I You know, it's interesting because I think of my life as went before sobriety and after sobriety but I also think of it in terms of relationships partner with Doo Health for this episode and I want to tell you why Fty six percent of Due Health members showed signs of hidden cardiovascular risk after doing their blood test. forty six percent And you know what, they had absolutely no idea, no symptoms, no big dramatic warning. 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I'm like a serial monogamist And my first husband, John Taylor, who I had my daughter at Atlanta with I met him right when I came out of care And I said to him, lookook, you might have to adopt me so that I don't go back in the care home because they' basically many Yeah That's just so wait, that's so blown my mind John You said to John Tayl that he might have to doot you in case you had to go back. Yes. I was terrriified. How old were you when you met John? I was six sixteen God so Yeah. I mean, but we don'try allowed to but yeah We got married that much better And that sorted that out Um, but, you know, I'm so grateful that I met him and how did you meet I met him at a play A matinee play because I had to be back by six PM. It was sort of like house arrest after I got out. And I really love kind people.es. I love kind people. and he was very gentle with me and very kind. So I mean that's I've picked that in my partners. They're all very decent people and who, you know, their kind of moral compass is in a direction that I respect And so I was lucky enough to be able to meet him and kind of start a new life. you know, it was like Okay. All that tabloid craziness Then you know, hosting the word I needed a job. I had to get a job when I got out of. How did you get the word? ' that was absolutely mega and completely bonkers that you were l young. I know. On Telly. I was on live Telly and it was Again, it was normal for me, you know, it's crazy. I mean, I remember just like And we had no delay We had no delay. So you could you said sock it was on TV at that time, you know, It was great. And I love like it has prepared me so well for life because you know, at that time, it's like you've got an airpiece and they're counting you down And there's a million people watching you, you know, live on TV and you're like, wait, who am I talking to? What am I doing? And you just wing it. It's taught me how to just wing life. because it's great training. You can feel such nerves and terror, but you're like, I gotta fucking do it because I'm live, you know, It really prepared me for life in a great way And also I think you were great with just hustling with with whatever was happening. Yes. You know, you could just adapt. Because look at my training for life. have to just adapt. You know what I mean? So I was a great person to host live TV because whatever happens I could just handle it You know, And so it's been a great training for life. Again, like You know, all these things make sense the older you get where you're like, Oh, I see what that taught me. Right, I see why that needed to happen. It taught me this thing. You know, and I just had that over and over again Has writing the book been good for that? It has been really good for that. Connecting the dots you know, and seeing stuff in black and white. It's like doing an inventory in many ways. Yes, you know. Can you explain to people what an inventory is? Oh, an inventory is so wonderful. It's the same way as like business can't stay in business without taking stock of, you know, what what what's working and what isn't. and it's an inventory is what we do in recovery on ourselves. What aspects of us as a human being are working, what isn't, what is a defect? what is something that is really holding me back or sabotaging myself? And it's a way to look at everything written down on a page and go, oh, right I see a pattern that's really negative here in my life and I need to really be mindful of changing that. How do I change that? Because that's not serving me. I've got this amazing asset over here that I've been developing that is really moving me forward in a direction that I want. let me spend more time doing that and less time doing that. And I love doing inventories because it lets me really see where I'm at in a very honest unbiased way and I share it with somebody else who then it removes the shame because most often than not, they're like, oh yeah, I did that too. And you're like, really? And they're like, Yeahah, and you're like, oh great, you know, just freese yourself up from more shame basically. And it allows you to move forward with more intentionality. That's the thing. like I don't want to be reactive I want to be responsive with what I do in life. So I listen to myself. It doesn't matter what other people have to say about it. It's like, how do I feel about it? And do I feel good about who I am in the world whether anyone knows about it or not you know in private, do I feel good And there's things I feel great about and there's things that I definitely keep working on and have to improve You know, and my kids, you know, remind me of those things They're humbling kids. They are. Oh my go. They really are. But my k my kids just take the piss out of me using a phone so badly. Why? Oh my go, the way I text the way I dictate messages. So do I? because it's just I know it's same I. I've got long nails as well. And they're going full stop That's what mine do. That's what mine do. Mine do the same thing Oh my God. It's so funny. but our kids they put up with a lot. They do. and my kids have been very clear about you know, boundaries what the boundaries are. Yeah and how is it for you because you're very respectful of that, right? I am, but it's difficult because there's things that I think would be helpful for other people My my family no that I use my life experiences and I try to make it into something that will be helpful for other people And that at times might include them. And so it's a fine line that I walk. and that's an ongoing discussion, you know of what that line is I think for anybody kind of of later generations watching this or listening to this might be interested to hear what press intrusion was like Um when you were famous When you were really, really famous, I mean, you're famous now, but when you were like when it was unbearable Yeah. Well because you actually ended up leaving the UK because it' just too much with John. We did. What was it like before you left? How bad was it? Can you give us some kind of examples? For a young person, at the time I was I was I had Atlanta, my daughter at nineteen And I think the combination of a member of Duran Duran being married to you know, television presenter Amanda De Cadneay was just like, a match made in tabloid heaven, the combination of us. was very intense and Atlanta was less than a year old and the media was so brutal about my body post pregnancy And there was The worst Imagine that. And headlines, you know, Amanda De Flabonet and just like horrible, horrible body shaming. And I remember I was breastfeeding in the park by where I lived And not like with my boobs out, like discreetly breastfeeding I guess Paparazzi got photos of those pictures and put them on blast. And just to say So people know You couldn't you never saw the paparazzi. No know that they were no close. People would go like, oh, well they knew. you don't you don't know. They are brilliant at hiding. Really good. And they can take them from miles away. Yeah. I mean was it was bad enough that I was I was telling Ella, my daughter because I walked past my old house that I used to live in And I said, that's where I used to live with John in Atlanta And I said, you know, I left this lovely house in Notting Hill with food in the fridge and laundry in the hamper And I said to him, I've got to get out of here. I can't take this. And we went on a holiday to LA and I never went back. Wow. And so my house had to get packed up and shipped to Los Angeles And I didn't come back here for ten years. Wow. Yeah, it's such a shame It's such a shame because You know, there's so many wonderful things about being here and so many old friends And my career left my career Like I really just like got up and left And it's only kind of through all the work that I've done all the different therapies that I've done, you know, that I've been able to kind of heal a lot of that that pain from that period of time when I when I used to live here, you know How much did having Atlanta help you and like it feels like You withstood horrific amounts of press intrusion. Yeah, I did. But then you had Atlanta and it was like, okay, not okay anymore. Yeah, it was st for me. What was it about having Atlanta that ang I think having a daughter at nineteen allowed me to get my focus off of myself and onto someone else, which is always helpful. It's so unhealthy to be person who has that much attention on them because then you're focusing on yourself to such a degree that like that's all you think about And so to have Atlanta and to be able to think about someone else and to want to protect her and take care of her in a way that like I didn't feel like I had had and I just didn't want anyone photographing her Hm I think she saved my life in many ways. Yeah, I did. Breaking that that generational cycle And Atlanta saved my life, you know? She really did. She I don't know. if I had stayed here and not left and gotten sober. I wouldn't have gotten sober if I hadn't have had her U I got sober when I was pregnant with her and I stayed sober because I wanted her to have a conscious mother And I don't know that I would have survived had I not have had her So I kind of thank her with so much gratitude for my life really. She kind of gave me gave me a life that a trajectory that I wasn't on And I truly think as well as having Atlanta, getting sober and going into recovery proper recoveryvery at twenty two. At nineteen, which is when I was pregnant with Atlanta, I just stopped drinking and doing drugs. But I went into recovery meaning I actually got a program and I got into a support system that gave me a structure that I had never had and gave me a community that I had never had And that is what really changed my life, you know. And if you change your life You are giving yourself the best opportunity to not drink again. Exactly. And for a long time, I didn't understand that I could have help to stop I just thought I'm a strong person, I'm a capable person. I've got phenomenal willpower. Look at my life. Why can't I stop doing this? And I didn't understand the nature of addiction is that it doesn't matter how strong you are and how smart you are. You know addiction and alcoholism is not discerning and it will outsmart even the smartest of us And so being able to be in a recovery community has been the bedrock of my life. Absolutely. withithout that, it's at the center of every single thing I do. go through the filter of recovery and it's given me an internal supportort system and tools that I live by daily. you know, for twenty two years now Thank you. Well done. thank you. Yeah And I mean, when you moved, you literally left everything behind and just got on a plane and left You went to America. Were you famous in America at all? Did you just start completely from scratch. I started completely from scratch. It was Terrifying, and it was exciting. And I, you know I had gone from this kind of big high profile life and hosting live late night time overwhelming like so much to like being an anonymous person And I remember buying a car that was like a two thousand dollars car that kept breaking down and I had a new baby and we were renting like two bedrooms out of this person's house in Laurel Canyon, and it was the most kind of happy I had been. Is funy? Yeah, I was so happy to just, it was like that felt genuine to me, you know And it was so needed. It was like I need to find out who I am without having an identity thrust upon me you know, And I think that's We didn't have social media then, so I couldn't communicate to the world who I really was It was a one way conversation and it was with what the media put out. You couldn't respond. There was no way of responding. Yes. And so you had an identity thrust upon you. You couldn't write the wrongs. You couldn't. And so that's also what's great about this book is that I'm able to tell my story from my perspective And that has been so freeing, you know One of the first gifts of sobriety was about a year after I got to America, I was so grateful to be able to just like live a normal life and find out what that was and did I enjoy that? or did I miss Be that person that was on TV and very known And I didn't miss it but what I realized was Around twenty two when I got into recovery, it was around twenty three that I realized that actually like I'm a storyteller. Yes. What is it about me? I'm a communicator, I'm a storyteller And I loved photography And I had been photographed by some of the most phenomenal photographers in the world. as name something Be they are you have really. Yeah. So two of my favorites are Mario Sarenti and Glen Lutchford who I just love so much. They're amazing. bothoth of those incredible. ye. And I would ask photographers so many questions. like what is that like? Soophia Coppola photographed me a lot And so I was always asking them, like what film do you use? what camera is that? what lens is that And so when I was about twenty three, I discovered, actually, I do want to tell stories that matter. I just don't want it to be my face and my voice. Yes. so That was another pivot where I actually became a photographer And I remember going into GQ magazine and I was on the cover of GQ at the time. and I went in with like a little box of photos that I had taken to meet the photo editor to say, Hi, here's my work. Would you hire me as a photographer And everyone in the office was like, our cover girl is in here. As a photographer and no one understood why I would put in a box. Yes. I love you. They weren't in a book No they were in a box. My God, love you, Amanda. I didn't know. I just didn't know. No. I love that. And you were actually on the cover of GK. as a box of picturesly. Yes. And I wanted them to hire me as a photographer. You're such a hustler. I love you. And I was not I was so excited to have the meeting with the photo editor And so unfortunately, my first jobs as a photographer required me to be in the pictures because people were like, okay, you can do self portraits. And this is before selfies. So you had to like load up your camera, focus your lens on something, put like a stand in, and then get them to move. And you had to jump in and press the cable on a clicker and take your own pictures. W. So those were my first jobs as a photographer But it was such a relief to be able to tell stories. through my perspective as opposed to my body and my physicality And that was a brave decision. Yeah. But it was just brought me so much joy because I got to photograph women in my community in a way that really showed a female perspective because it was mostly men who were the top photographers, there just weren't women who were in my age range. No. There were people who were much older And I just didn't really have a path forward as a photographer. So I was like, I have to create the path where one doesn't exist because the female perspective is invaluable and we're not women are not seeing ourselves portrayed by our own eyes.. We're seeing ourselves portrayed through the male gaze. and there's nothing wrong with that, but we need balance. We need the female gaze too That's what you with your photographs, you can you really tell a story I want to. That' to with just an image, which is amazing. Thank you. I love photographing people and my last book that I published was a mix of super high profile people and completely unknown people.. likeike I've got, you know, Orlando Bloom asleep on the sofa with a dog to a man who I saw in Holland Park who is deaf and he has a hearing aid and he's got a cookie Monster t shirt on. And I photograph them the same way with the same reverence and respect, you know, And I like to tell a story of who someone authentically is, whether I'm interviewing them or photographing them. I'm looking for that true essence of them And I think that's what I That's what I give to people when I'm working with them, whether I'm shooting them or interviewing them. And that's what I am looking for is that authentic honest connection of Let me show you who I am and I want to know who you are genuinely, even if there's parts of you that you don't feel great about, like it's all welcome here, you know through the vogue cover. So I photographed Keana Reeves for the cover of Vogue U and u It's a beautiful photograph You know, I don't think he really likes being photographed, but I said, Hey, this is something fun that we can do And at the time there were so again, few women who were photographing You know successfully at the time and I love that photograph of him. It's a very authentic image of him. as someone who's been photographed a lot. I just feel like he looks so comfortable in his eyes. Yeah, like he's really likeike he feels safe. Yes. So it' it feels like And not that I know I've interviewed him once. We were talking about this before And I was like hoping that he was as nice as I I think he was and you said he is. Yes, he's a very kind man. Yeah. youot that. I did picture. I did. And I think that photo of him really marks a time in his life and in my life I love those photographs so much of him. we shot at his house and I was like, can you get in the pool? You know, and he was like, o okay, you know, all right, for you, I'll get in the pool. But I love that photo and I think it does show his true essence. Like I said, I have gravitated towards kind, genuine people in my life, and he's definitely one of them. When did you meet Demi Moore and how did the conversation start Conversation TV series Yeah, which is now my podcast. So I when I had my twins, I was thirty five years old. So I had had my first baby at nineteen and then fourteen years later, I had twins. And it was very diffult. Can we start on Yeah, I just wanted to talk to you about your experience second time round because obviously nineteen was so young And then thirty four, you have learnt so much in life It was a lot harder What was it? Yeah, it was a lot harder becausecause I knew so much more. And twins. And twins. whichich was a beautiful surprise, but I was like, o my God, too and so After that pregnancy, I had really severe postpartum And at that time, which was nineteen years ago could not find stories from women postpartem, Nobbody was talking about it. Could you just explain how did it manifest itself and when did you know and did D notice Did anybody see? didid your husband see? We did notice and the people around me were like, maybe you need to get some extra help for this because I was breastfeeding twins. I breastfeed them for a year, one of them for a year and one for six months And I was exhausted and I felt like maybe this is just a twin new twin mom. But it was much deeper than that. It was like an apathy And it kind of like I really felt like I couldn't bond with my kids. And it was a horrible feeling. And I was very, very depressed and u I was desperately looking online for stories about post pregnancy mental health issues and I couldn't find it. And I thought, this is crazy Like I found some on some forums. Yes, you know, like bear those days the forums. Yeah werent. And I was like, this is nuts. I mean, if I'm going through this, there have to be millions of other women who are how are they getting support And so what I start, I thought, you know what? I'm going to find people who have talked about difficult issues for women and I'm going to talk about these things. Because I was a photographer, I knew how to light a room and I knew how to use my cameras And so in my community of women, I found out who were the people that could talk about these different things, whether it was Gwyneth Paltru who talked about the death of her dad or it was Minni Driver who talked about Um have choosing to have a child by herself or it was u Who else did I talk to I mean, that was, I'm thinking of the beginning interviews that I did And I basically asked women, please come to my house and we're going to talk about this subject matter. And I filmed it myself, I lit it myself And I found a friend who knew how to edit on the computer And I did these interviews withith the lens of Let me Have women talk about these things that are stigmatized. and I will put this online And therefore, the woman who is Googling postpartum mental health will find my interviews and will feel less alone. And so I was doing these interviews with women in my community and Di who is, you know, a sol family, you know, my How do I describe Di? Dem' like chosen family. And so She said to me, what these interviews you're doing? you know, and I showed them to her. She said, Wow, these are amazing Can I help you to get them out in the world And that just love. Yes. That is women who really love the women who are like, I see you. let me use what I have in the world to help you. And that was such a gift because we have the same manager And she said, let's talk to Jason Weinberg about this. And Jason said, These are amazing Let's sell this as a TV show And u initially, nobody wanted it. beforefore I had showed them the footage People were like, yeah, right, you're going get Lady Garagar to talk about cocaine addiction and self harm And I was like, yeah, I am I think it's really important and I think she will talk about it And no one believed that I was going to be able to do it. But you know why you could of your life. Yes. The your experience. Yes. It's like sitting in front of somebody who totally gets everything you're saying. Whatever you say, whatever experience you've had, you've done it. That has been my experience largely, and it's been been why I feel so grateful I've been able to turn all these life experience into something positive. I can sit opposite Jane Fonda, Hillary Clinton. Miley Cyrus, you know And you know, Camela Harris and whoever these women are, and by the way, not just famous women, women from all walks of life And most of the time, they talk about an experience they've had that I can relate to myself And that is so incredible to be able to do that. And what happened with Demi and Jason was we took it out and once people saw the footage, then they wanted it And at the time, no one really gave a shit about women and girls And so We were fighting the media who were saying in America, it was like there's one network that's dedicated to women And we've got one show talking to women I was like, what? You know? And so it was a fight, but we got this show licensed on eighteen different networks around the world. It was on Sky in the UK. And I have to say when it was on Sky in the UK, I came back here And I was so excited to talk to the women in media. And I was like, who are the women with their own shows here? I want to go talk to them The one ten I And that was so upsetting to I was like, I can't believe You know, eighteen years later, nineteen years later, since I've left the UK. Nothing's changed. Nothing's changed. There isn't a woman that is anchoring her own show. No. There's aan There's a show called Loose Women for fuck's sake Why? Why call it loose women? Give them another name, that amazing group of women? You know, and I was so disheartened, but that is why I made this show. I made the conversation because A show like that just wasn't existing in so many countries around the world. proof that if you have an idea and that you're really committed. you can make something. We have technology and we have tools now that we can create so many things now without someone giving you permission to do it. Yes. And so when that show launched, it kind of established me as an interviewer in America And I didn't mind being Kown for that because it was for a purpose. You know, it really was like I was able to be a conduit for all these incredible women's stories and things that they hadn't shared before publicly and to put those stories out in the world so that other women could relate. And that show is now a podcast because in COVID we had to stop filming. and it's done what I wanted it to do, which is that it has exposed so many women to choices and alternatives and tools that they can use and apply to their lives through the power of storytelling How much healing has doing the conversation given you. I've had so much healing from doing the conversation and being able to talk to people The conversation mirrors what's going on in my life So The last three years, I've been really immersed in grief. culture When my dad died three years ago, it was the beginning of me understanding that I needed to get intimate with grief. I had a series of losses I learned is called compound grief, compounded grief. And at that time, I knew I had to learn more about grief because I didn't know what grief was. I had no idea that I was grieving and how multifaceted and multiayered grieving is And so I took a course to become certified as a grief counselllor. Oh wow. Yeah. That's amazing. It' so beautiful. Oh wow T be grieving and to be able to be in a space of other people learning about grief and how to support people through grief. It helped me move through my grief. Can I just ask you what is what could you explain what is compounded grief? Compounded grief is when you have a series of losses that ultimately were not your choice One after the other. And I had multiple losses starting with the death of my dad in an eighteen month period and I had just I was just about get my head above water and then I would get another I had another loss. and then I had another loss. and it's u You know, when you learn about grief, It is You know, I I'm doing a course right now to my certification about attachment based grie, which is so interesting. and it makes It's so interesting. It makes sense to me that people grieve based on their sort of attachment styles. You've got someone who's avoidant of their feelings They're going to agrieve in an avoidant way, which is they're going to push those uncomfortable feelings away and not deal with them. And they're going to come out sideways And if you've got someone who's got like a disorganized attachment style, they're going to have an ambivalent feeling towards grief. and their feelings and themselves And so if you look at grieving through the attachment lens, which is something that I have spent a lot of time looking at because of my early childhood and the kind of attachment ruptures It makes so much sense and you can help someone through their grief process if you understand how their attachment process works. It's just another lens to be able to look at grief. U And so you know, being becoming intimate with grief has been phenomenal for me, you know, because in life we're experiencing, you know Big grief Yeah and mental grief. I mean, especially I think when when people I would say probably my followers are often around midlife. Yeah and at a stage where we're going to less weddings and more funerals. Well not only that, but like we have children leaving home. Yeah. We have marriagesving. Yes. Of course there's not We've got careers ending. Yes, you know, changing. W. So learning to grieve, learning to understand what grief is, whether it's and by the way, even for someone who is leaving high school and is going to college That is there's a grieving process. that's a little grief, little G. You know, because we're experiencing grief all stages of life and we just don't know that that's what's happening to us. And so You know, my daughter, my eldest daughter got married And yes. ye, it was amazing. It was amazing. Well done at. I know. I'm so proud of her. and her husband is like She has, she has married. She's God. She did. She did it. She's married a man who is so kind and thoughtful and loving And he's my other son and he's He's wonderful. He's about five years younger than me and he's an amazing man and she's got a beautiful marriage and I'm so proud of her. And when your oldest daughter gets married and you had her at nineteen And we've definitely had an amasment There's a grief in that transition. you are no longer responsible for that adult. Now her husband has taken on the role because she's married And so there's also a grieving, that's a beautiful grieving in that process too My oldest daughter Ella moved out and started her career There's a grief in that too. and I'm so proud of her and she's so brave You know, for like setting her up herself up in another country and starting to work. I wonder where she gets that from. Exactly best parts of my survival skills U but but there's a grief in that too, you know, And so I think learning that it's okay to grieve and learning what grief looks like. is really important possibly process it in a healthy way. What do we do? I mean, there's many different things that we can do. I think everyone is different. There isn't a kind of one size fits all there are there's the initial kind of talking to someone which connects you to your feelings. If you're talking, but you're not connecting to your feelings, it's not really going to help you. If you're trying to Work it out and make sense of it just in your head alone. It's not going to move the emotion. The emotion is somatic. It's in your body, it's felt And so when I talk about somatic therapy, it includes your body and your mind and what are the ways that you can connect with your body? Being in nature, swimming, doing yoga, those are all things that put us into our bodies as well as talking to someone. There's also EMDR which is a type of therapy where you're using eye movements to activate parts of the brain that store memory and emotion And so you either do it through holding these tappers that vibrate or you do it through looking at a light that moves across in a horizontal motion like this. And there's something about that vibrating pattern or that eye movement that accesses stored and repressed emotion And that's a really great way to connect with your feelings and Cry a lot Cry alert. How important is crying? It's so important People say, Oh, don't cry. you know, or like, o, you know, that person cries too much. No, cry as much as you need to cry You know, I cry most days a little bit, sometimes a lot, sometimes a little bit You know, waail, if you need to wail If you need to like beat the shit out of your pillows on your bed and get angry Do that too. Let it go. Let it, just let it up and out you know, and know that there isn't There isn't like an end date Like it's not that you're one day going to wake up and go, o, I don't have grief about that person dying anymore. You just learn to metabolize it and it becomes integrated into you And it just becomes a part of you Grief is a part of me You know, loss is a part of me now. It used to be a huge part of me. and it swallowed me for a while.. And now it's a smaller part and it's in me. This is an unbelievably helpful grief chat because I think we will all encounter grief It's the only inevitability. Yeah, really This is the only inevitability is that we're gonna die people we love are going to die and we will experience grief and loss in our lives. And the fact that Western culture is so uneducated and doesn't prepare us in any way whatsoever to metabolize grief and to even know what it looks and feels like I didn't know what was going on with me. I thought I was losing my mind. It turns out I was in perimenopause and grieving You know, and I wish that I had have had the knowledge to identify what was going on with me And that's You know, I've been I was doing these grief circles in Los Angeles after the fires when people had lost their homes And obviously, I had just become certified as a grieve counselor so I wasn't leading it, I was the backup person. And it's weird because all my years of interviewing people and knowing how to kind of like manage a lot of people talking, hosting live TV, prepared me to do these grief sury with forty people. Amazing. You know, And I was I learned how to like quietly sh shut people up and let someone else speak and to ask questions that help people you know express what they were feeling. So it was weird. It was like my experience of hosting live television and interviewing people got put to use as a grief counselor in these grief circles that I was doing Who knew? I'm wondering whether you'd been able to see because it feels like you've done a lot of retrospective work now. that's been able to make you see the positives and everything. But were you always able to say Oh actually I'm I'm pleased I went through that. I learned something Or was that something that happened much later on in your life I have I think recovery teaches you. to really find truth of the situation and it teaches you compassion for yourself and others It teaches you forgiveness And no, I have not been in a place of acceptance. and forgiveness for all of the situations and things that have happened to me in my life. It's been a really long process. Some things were easier and other things were much harder Um, you know, I had These losses that I had over this three year period, I was very angry about a couple of them, like really, really furious and felt very wronged. Um and, you know, teenageer Amanda who will like fuck you up Like she came to life within me, you know? And I was like, hang on a minute Hang on a minute You are a woman in recovery. You cannot be acting out from a place of rage and anger And I took that anger and put it into you know my therapeutic process and my recovery process And I feel like at the moment, I've done a really good job in being in more acceptance How are you with anger I think it's a really important motivating force I think it's something that people are afraid of in women They don't like it. It's threatening. You're considered you're labeled as crazy if you show any anger And it is a really important emotion to have How you express it is the key thing, yes. Just because you feel anger, it doesn't mean that you can go about you know cussing at people or being violent towards people or being mean It is okay and important to express anger in a way that is appropriate And I think I want women to be able to connect all emotions that they have and not feel that there's a part of themselves that they should deny because that's when we get into problems. I feel very much that I have been forging a path my whole career for bringing issues and conversations about stigmatized things to light, mostly for women because I was so stigmatized And I really have advocated for freedom of speech and to be able to talk about things that most people feel a lot of shame or embarrassment about. I mean, you've single handedly brought the word perimenopause and menopause into the language of so many women You know, I mean, you did for me when I was After my dad had died and I was in terrible, terrible grief and so incapacitated you know, I would send you these these Faceetime messages sobbing, saying, I don't know I know I'm in grief. But like this feels like something else. And you'd say to me, have you had your hormones checked? And I said, yes, they're fine. And you said, it doesn't matter. your symptomology, what you're describing to me, it sounds like you're in perimenopause, get on some hormones And I did and I didn't know anything about menopause or perimenopause. in all my years of interviewing it m women. And I've interviewed so many phenomenal women. Not one woman mentioned either one of those two words. And I realized it's because we are it's internalized misogyny We live in such an ageist culture that no woman wants to say, Guess what? I'm not fertile anymore. Yeah. no more eggs. I'm done. becausecause it means that you are a certain age. Yes. And then you start to experience ageism. And it's like I've experienced all kinds of prejudice in my life. And now once I say I'm in perimenopause, it's interesting because now I'm getting to experience some ageism too It's Absolutely madness. It isn't it. And I have to say I am fifty eight, so I'm on the other side, no more periods. I'm in menopause est I have ever been Wow completely feeling in my power I am like in my greatest You give me l. You give me hope. Well, can I just Can I just say Amanda DeCadangh, you are like such an absolute boss bitch. like I I cannot tell you too see you sat here and everything that you've said and to be able to see all the learning. Yeah, so much learning. and that you're sharing that learning with other people. Yeah. your kids will be, and I know they are now So extremely proud of you Thank you I'm going to do a message for your kids. Okay Lanta Syvan and Ella. Giv your mum stop like giving your mum a hard time. She's not embarrassing. She's literally the coolest woman I've ever met I just want to say she deserves a lot of fuss, a lot of attention and you're very, very lucky All of you She's amazing U Fandider, hadn't I? I'd like to say thank you so much for coming us. Thank you Amazing. Auck me. Oh my God Allright I can't believe your life So just in case you miss this episode here If you love this episode, I know you're going to love that