Reflecting on Our Chosen Family

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I have to watch one hundred and four soccer games, follow the pre game, the post game, yell useless opinions at the TV It's a li So I knew that when it comes to screening for colon cancer, the choice was clear Cola Guard pllus test. It can be used at home and can only take fifteen minutes, so I can do it during halftime and not miss any action If you are forty five or older or at average risk, ask your healthcare provider about screening for colon cancer with the colgard test. You can also request a prescription at colgard dot com d E Miet dejulio Nespera tina Operaco Tempoe Mundo Liles resrespondero Al Gamadoino Plo unospoos Garana la galaserroanjosllol Ganesto de Operaco T Bo, Cado Sidos, Marteta deculio Portte Mundo Epico People are going to think that I'm this terrible person because I chose heroin over my children. In a car ready, it's usually you that's crying. Oh Godd. Sarah Hiscockx, you are my best friend. I don't know if I'd be alive without you. I remember meeting you and it was love at first sight. You were taking heroin. and I thought it was going to lose you. Will you just tell the story where my begin again happened with you There was a big void in me. I must have been thirteen and I found some pills in the bathroom cabinet and they were very, very strong opioid and so I definitely remember being addicted to those. I don't know if I'd be alive without you. And so I was really worried when you went I tried heroin for the first time. I'm not gonna do it again. And that's how it was. God. until it wasn't. In the end, my husband divorced me and took custody of the children People lose their families all the time but there is something about a mother Losing her own children. I thought, I've got to try and start pulling a life back together they're gonna read you something. Oh Godd Oh God Oh Goden This is weird. Very weird. Yeah ye. This is Sarah Hiscocks and she is my best friend and Very importantly You help me begin again. ye Profound to begin again. Yeah. I don't know if I'd be alive without you And I helped you begin again. In a very profound manner and the same, I don't know if I'd be alive without you I'm going to cry already. it's usually you that's crying. Oh God. And also I think that you are very inspirational for anybody out there who is just trying to find their things. So you have tried many different things to find out if that was going to be your creative outlet. Yeah. And I want to talk through that later. but You ended up taking a writing course.. You got a literary agent Then you got a book deal and you have released a bloody book. Bloody book. Can you believe it? I know. stillill can't quite believe it. Wow. Yeah. So Sarah Hiscoook's the beginning and the end of everything out now. ye Forward by some bird called Davina McCall. N never heard of her. No.s some old bag. No idea she is. I don't think anybody's in the least interested either. It's the Sarah Hiscocks bit they' be looking at Noother Davina McCorbt. I Regalaaniac M. And you've got a little bit of a recommendation from Jillian Anderson on here. She very kindly gave me a quote, which was very generous of her, yeah. That's good. Very nice. Yeah reallyally lovely. But this is a massive achievement Yes. I just want to say well done. It feels weird, though you saying that? doesn't that doesn't sit comfortably with me, you saying that. I just want to talk about something else, which is ridiculous because that's why I'm here because it's that It's that impmoster syndrome thing of Well I'm not a real writer, you know, It's I know because I've written a book and it's been published. Like how much more proof do I need? But I think that really is what the book I mean, as you know, the book is about a lot more stuff central it's about centrally it's about feelings of low self esteem and low self worth, which I've struggled with for all my life, That's really it, I think And for me, it's the ultimate love story. Oh And you are right, it is the ultimate love story. I mean, really honestly beyond all odds. I keep Whenever against all odds, I think, I keep thinking of that Phil Collins song Take a look at me I would like to talk about how interesting it was, seeing how autobiographical this is and how much about you having known you and been your best friend for forty years. Yeah How much I didn't know? I know that's crazy. It is weird. becausecause we have had so many conversations, obviously over the years, you know, deep, meaningful conversations So that is strange. Yeah. When I read about your childhood, and I think really when we became friends at nineteen, I just started our life from there. Yeah. Well so did And we didn't ask each other tons of questions about our childhood. We were just like, whoo are you now? You're my person. Let's go But also we didn't have the emotional language learn But we did have a trauma bond. We did have a trauma bond. Our mothers, our mothers, you know, and they made us close the get go, I think. Yeah. Well, first off, where did you grow up I grew up in London And then we moved to Suffolk when I was about eight and I was D deffinitely a kind of daddy's girl. I D didn't get on with my momum She was an alcoholic and notot particularly brilliant Mothering She prized sort of thinness and beauty above all. And there was a mantra that she used to say to my sister and I, which was Laugh and the world laugh with you, cry and you cry alone. which is not great for a small child. So basically chin up, get on with it. Yeah you know, Nobody's interested in your hist onics. just smile and look pretty And and manners was a big thing And she was a terrible snob as well You weren't allowed to say, Seti We weren't allowed to read Innard Blyson books because she said they were badly written. And I mean, she would have positively burst into flames if we'd used the word radio instead of wireless. I mean yeah, just so Yeah so weird And she wasn't grand herself. so I don't know where that came from Um That's from very young and it seems a lot. I mean, I know you know, you have similar experience And a lot of my girlfriends do this sort of seventies rather neglectful parenting. Yeah And I think that you know, them being our parents being the children of people, you know, who were alive during the war. I don't know why that is But it seems quite common. That kind of seventies neglectful parenting And I want to be really careful not to blame her because what I do know and we've discussed this before, is that she absolutely did the best she could with what she had. She was unable to give anymore because she didn't have it in her. you know I want to be careful not to blame her, but There was from a very early age, this feeling of not being good enough. But then I suffered from terrible nightmares. I don't remember what they were, but just not sleeping, not sleeping. So my mom remember I'm eight. My mom took me to the local doctor And he gave me Mugadom No, I mean, again, I don't think I was fully aware that that had started for you so young. But nor is I me. This is insane. I wasn't aware until I started writing the book It just I, it was so Normal in my house to just help hisself to pills. They were everywhere So Okay It didn't really occur to me. But I mean, you know, it's one thing to give a grown woman something like that. but an eight year old to Morodon was what? a down her road. It's a very powerful sleeping pill. Right. You know, prescription only sleeping pill. Yeah. That is not available anymore probablyroably because it's so addictive and powerful then I mean, it would just, you know, knock out a bloody horse and I was a small eight year old girl and my mother didn't think twice about giving it to me. It had been sanctioned by a doctor, so it must be allright. So I remember taking a pill. I mean, it was a gateway to So something completely different. It was like having a big blanket wrapped around me. It was delicious And I think I was prescribed them for a couple of weeks wo weeks of sleeping pills. I mean, nowadays they say not be completely addicted. Yeah. Three days they say now. But then two weeks is a long time But anyway, two weeks and then and then and then the Um Nightmares returning Then when I was a bit older, I found some pills in the So I must have been twelve or thirteen And I found some pills in my dad's or in the bathroom cabinet and they were called palfum And they're very, very strong Pioid very, very powerful, very fast acting. And I would take those when I got home from school. But again, I mean They're in the bathroom cabinet, along with my momum's tamp packs. clinique, Toner You know, so it was it was fine And so I definitely remember being addicted to those when I was thirteen. And when they ran out comoming in You know, diarrhea, Wow, stomach ache, all of that stuff, but I didn't know what it was. W. You know, so But again, it wasn't until I started writing the book that I remembered all that stuff. So when we met, let's just set this story up. Yeah, you and I met at a party. Yeah. And u I remember meeting you and it was love at first sight. Yeah. And by the end of the party I was like, I want to see you. a lot more every day everyvery day. Yeah. It was really funny. Yeah, falling in love with a girl. Yeah being like You're my person at this disge. Yeah And it was instant fromrom then on. Now before that, before I met you because this is very key to our story, I think You had been in a car crash. Can you just talk us through what had happened in the car crash Yes, so I had just finished my A levels at school and I had gone to Spain with two girlfriends to stay with people that we knew that we're living out there, in N Malaga And we were in a car Coming home from a nightclub and we were going around a hairpin bend. It' really windy wind windy roads in the mountains in Spain and we're on the wrong side of the road And basically we got knocked the car came around the bend and knocked us off when we fell down the side of a cliff and the c s are crumpled up like paper The other two were sort of okay, superficial scars I had cut into the protective layer of my brain And so I had to be in hospital for a long time. How long I think I was in hospital for three months. But I wasn't because with well, I mean, as you know, with a head injury or brain injury, any you have to be very careful. So I was told that I had to take I had I'd had a place at arrt collollege that I was going to go to and I told I had to take a year off from that to recover No kind of going out late, no partying, no drugs I had to be really careful of all that stuff. So obviously that was quite That was quite difficult at that time because I was eighteen. And that's when everybody's celebrating going and it's your start of your adulthood isn't it? And also just remembering that This was around the time of like nineteen eighty eight, Summer of loveo. Ecstasy was everywhere. Yeah. everyveryone's like, you know, in the football terrac was everywhere. on the L it was huge raidves, there' enormous raves, illegal raides everywhere couldn't Now delve into any of that. So for me who was in all of that Yeah and I was on beginning of me going really Matt. Yeah you felt like my safe place? Yeah you didn't feel safe or confident, but to me I thought you were. It was reading the book was such an eye opener for me knowing how you really felt back then. But we both served We both served a purpose for each other. Maybe you didn't know But I didn't really know. I just saw you as this fabulous sort of peacock that I wanted to be more like, you know? and that you, you know, you you're When you turn your light on someone, it's very warm there. it feels good, you know, And so I felt I felt so happy that you you know that you did that for me. And so the But we were doing that for each other And also I did know your backstory and I I could, you know, you were living in your dad's like basically in your dad and stepmother's flats in Olympia Yeahom so well. I mean, that's where You know, that's where my begin again happened with you. Yeah. just it's I mean, it makes me laugh sometimes actually when you think about how it happened, but will you just tell the story of how how I confronted you. So what like I'd got bad. So you got bad and I could tell that it wasn't just like a couple of E. you were taking heroin, you know, and that to me Well, to most people with any sense is Inredibly dangerous And I thought was going to lose you And it wasn't just being the center of attention of a party or something much darker that had taken you over. And I was aware people talking about you behind your back And I was aware that you were kind of sliding out of gar And I was losing myself. You were losing yourself And you'd always to me One of the huge attractions of you to me was that you always seem so self assured, you knew who you were. You knew who you were, you knew what you wanted But then that suddenly seemed to go. And so remember I was working for a PR company. I'd been giving tickets to Santana, the Hammersmouth Palaet. and I was like, do you want to come? You were like, yeah, al right? I was, whyy would you? But anyway, I remember picking you up In my little mini metro outside the your flat, Dad's flat. And youre getting in the car and me turning to you and saying Listen I'm really worried about you. Can I just say something I'm back there? you can I can feel that I'm right lack in that car as so weird. So weird. It was dark, it was winter and I like you It's funny because we have slightly different memories of it. Yes, which is also strange. I remember you being crumbling quite quickly because I think were you were scared You realizeed Well, I was a bit angry. you were bit ang you were talking to me about it. I had. But then the minute I got out of the car I mean, your memory might maybe I did crumble before. I mean, it was so long ago, right? I cried all the way to the front door, but I was like, I can't let her see how broken I am, but I know I know I'm fucked. And you were fucked And I know this is the end. Yeah. I was so full of shame. you telling me that people were talking about me hard that was the thing that finished me off because I thought, oh my god I am the topic of conversation and I'm not there. I know how awful. I hate that. Yeah, I hate the idea that And this' sort of like slightly patronising Yeah I heard about Davine. She's such a merl. Yeah, she's a real. Shes lost it. And because also there is a There is a in some people, there is a gle in that You know, I remember hearing in a meeting once, you can really tell how healthy you are by how you feel about your friend's success Yes. and that's so true, you know. And so there was there was a ge in some people. That Ohh dear, she's lost it, you know. but I was frightened you I did know that. ye I did't know that. There was no no that' I confronted you. There was no matter. I wanted you to stop. I wanted you back because also I could feel and you know what it's like with heroin. it puts a It puts a wall between you both and I could feel that wall. And I didn't want that there because you were the person that I spoke to. You were my person. you know, you were mother, father, brother, sister to me. So I needed you back So it was purely selvage actually. so I remember that very well and that was a huge turning point for you. What was everything. I didn't use again. I went to a meeting the next day and that was it. and that was it. And I didn't drink again and I've never had a drink again. is It's a big deal Oh my darlings Oh. Oh Oh I am I'm so grateful I'm so grateful that you saw me. Yeah. Thank you And u What's funny was When I said I was going to interview you to a couple of people that didn't know about your book and everything. I said, I'm interviewing my best friend. And they went, What the one from the car? Because on Diary of a CEO when I did my interview, I talked about you and that moment and how you changed My life There are there are moments that one remembers. Yeah, huge moments that that you begin again with. Yeah, you know, you can have more than one. You can have I've had a few You've had a few, you know, but is that willingness and to try and begin again and also to and I hope that it will be better as well. And and you had that. And then then life just completely changed for you. Well for us For us, it was amazing. Once that once you've taken that step it was yeah. M your Mic tell Pleasure Well, honestly, you did the same. And you you got married. Yeah, very young Reasonably young, yeah. How old were you when you married Rrench? I was twenty three when I got married. So let's just talk about how you met and how annoying I was, I'm really sorry. Oh my Godd, you were so annoying I mean, you were meant to be my friend You humiliated me in front of my soon to be hopeful boyfriend. So basically I met Renhort. and was mad about him. Couldn't quite believe he was mad about me And I remember him taking him to your club quuiet Storm, which was just slight full of like the trendiest grooviest like was. And I was just, you know, I was on the guest list. Yeah. So it was a real like We should go to quuiet Storm. I'm on the guest list and plus one, you can be my plus one. you know It's a win for me. Bringing him into the club, I was so excited And you were so excited because obviously it' my fun. You knew all about it And what did you do? Can I show you what you did So there you come towards us in the PVC or whatever you're wearing. and you come towards us and I'm like, Div, this is Renchaw, Renchaw, this is Div. And you go, Oh my God. Oh my God, I've had so much about you. And I just stood back in absolute horror What are you doing? L He me to pretend, I haven't even mentioned his name. It's like all sense of being cool and nonchalant W was gone. But you did fall in love. I did absolutely fall in love. And so did he, love of my life. And it was the most unbelievable thing to behold, I've got to say as an outsider looking in. Yeah I remember wishing and hoping that I might one day also enjoy a love like that It was um It was extraordinary and your wedding was one of the most joyful days of my life. Well, I've just when I think of you talking about the wedding Do you know I see? What? I see you on the pole onn the pove of the Marquis in a really, really short kilt. Tiny tiny kelts Bobby socks and high heels. She hasn't moved on.ight. poole dancing against the Marquis. But I'm so glad you had fun. What I love about you is that you create your own fun, you know I remember being in a restaurant. I haven't stopped. I' still I miss. I remembered for my fortieth we went to this restaurant and they were taking a really long time bringing the food. There was like some some issue in the kitchen, maybe then out a fire or something. And so everybody, we're like there for an hour, the food don come. You just start dancing and singing and it's like she's just creating her own fun. It's just leave her to it No, I love it. I love it, I love it. I love it. Thank God for that because it's not joing. I know and I never want it to change My partner would do Health for this episode and I want to tell you why Fty six percent of Due Health members showed signs of hidden cardiovascular risk after doing their blood test forty six percent And you know what? they had absolutely no idea, no symptoms, no big dramatic warning. And look, I get why people put this stuff off because results can feel reallyally scary. you know, you think What if I find out something I can't Ik Finding things early can change everything and that's what's great about what Dr. Rongand has done with Doo Health. This app gives you something clear enough to question. 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Know your sleep score with Apple Watch iPhone eleven or later required If you've ever blasted synth bes from your boom box or burn C Bes for your besties, this one's for you As people get older, much like their music tastes, their health needs change AG one is the simple Daily health drink designed to deliver over seventy five essential daily nutrients in pre and probiotics to support energy, digestion, and mood So you can make the most out of every decade and dance break Learn more at drinkagy one. com It was at around This time that you told me Yeah, and this was heavy. Yeah, you were buemic. Yeah, ye When did that start Okay, so that started in my early twenties. late teens, early twenties, it was something that I could do that nobody knew about that gave me some kind of relief from the feelings that I was feeling inside. And the interesting work. The thing about bulhimia is that people don't tend to talk about it because With anorexia, which of course is a deadly disease. Yes. There seems to be quite a lot of people talk about anorexia, maybe because there is that sense of control around it. Bulimia, there's no control and it's deeply shameful. You know, it's Drug addicts, I hear it in meetings tend to talk up their drug addiction You know, like, oh man, I was so bad. I was, you know, sticking a needle in my eye all. There is nothing glamorous or rock and roll about coming back from a party and eating sort of seventeen M andS shortbread and then throwing it up. there's no glamour there And there's a disgust And there's definitely self disgusted. this idea of stuffing. Yeah. and then pud and then putting off his don her throat and throwing it up. Yeah. It's disgusting. And it is disgusting, you know, so I kept that quiet for a long time, but it became very bad. You know, I was going it very thin I got very thin, but then then I put on a lot of weight. So at first, I don't know if you remember, but I lost weight. This is working marvellously. And then because of the amount of food I was eating, I couldn't get rid of it. So I started putting on weight. And then that just spun me out and I couldn't understand why I wasn't losing weight And then that feeling of the, like I said, the self disgust The hatefulness that I felt toward myself, the violence I felt towards myself was The way that I spoke to myself, just like, you know, you're ugly, you're fat, you know, you're just this This self loathing absolute disgust at myself and I put on the weight very quickly after that. And and also your face becomes puffy. I mean, your body's just trying to probably hold ono anything. Yeah because just thinks it's dying. you know, he doesn't you're going to get rid of it. so it's holding on to everything and just I was thinking the other day, o my God, if I spoke to my children The way that I spoke to myself during that time. They would have been taken away from me. I mean, imagine if one of your daughters came up to you and said, I hate myself. I hate the way I look. I disgust myself. Yes. You would just put your arms around them, like we're going to get you any kind of help we can Thats you didn't tell anybody. I didn't tell anyone, but then I told you. Yeah And you were the only person I told And the thing was that The difficult thing with food, which is different from drugs and alcohol, is that the drugs and alcohol you're abstinent from them. With food, you can't, youve got to eat So it's really hard And its not it's not lost on me now that I'm the thinnest person I know. You know, I have a complicated relationship with food. I still do. I have to be very careful about what I eat when I eat I don't, I don't u stop myself from eating the things that I want, but I'm just mindful because Honestly, the bulimia was so much worse in many ways than the drug addiction. Yeah. reallyally. Although the consequences, the outside consequences for the heroin addiction were were much bigger. But the internal consequences I have terrible. Yeah. it's the shame And and Shame keeps people quiet, it keeps people sil yes So If you don't shine a light on it by talking about it, it just grows in the corner, which is what happened So I didn't get help So at the time, you know, you on paper, it looks like your life is going brilliantly. Yeah. You've done art collllege, you've met Ransshaw. Yeah, you're getting married. you're getting married. But isn't healing you No, why not because it's an inside job, you know, it's a void that within that is within me. I remember listening watching one of your begin agains with them Spencer Matthews and he was talking about his addiction And he was saying that When he met his wife, it made him want to be a better person and he stopped That was the opposite from I didn't have that experience. That was not my experience. My experience was that If I wasn't alright, he would leave me. you know, So I had to keep all these things undercover. If I wasn't thin enough, if I wasn't pretty enough, if I wasn't clever enough, if I wasn't funny enough, that's your mum. Yeah, then he was gonna to leave me. And oh my God, he might find out anyime anyyt timee he's going to I'm an imposter. He's going to find out who I really am. And if he knew how I felt about myself, he'd be off in a minute. So I had to keep these things truly hidden. And like I said, when they're hidden that's when it's poisonous and it goes bad. So there was this It just felt like a big void in me and I tried filling it with Rntchw, with food, with I don't know a new pair of jeans or Nothing work, now becausecause That's not how you fill it. That's not what happens. but I didn't know that then. I didn't have any book to say, O, well this is what you need to do. Yeah. So I just felt Well, I'm going to get pregnant one day and that'll stop because when I have a baby, yes, then everything's gonna to be fine. Y and then had a baby And honestly, when he was born, your godson, Linus All that all those feelings I'd felt all my life about not being enough, not this enough, not that enough disappeared Tiny thing of perfectness of beauty and purity and the love that you have for a baby is so different from any kind of love The love that I experienced before was either with my parents, which is very complicated Love hate Rren Shaw loved him, but there's always jealousies and there's so much more in that word of love But with your child, it's pure. It's just love, and I'd never experienced that before And it was overwhelming. And I remember staring at him on the bed and Just being quite overwhelmed with that feeling of love And that You know, lasted and then Motherhood, I was scared of being a mother. because I'd not been mothered very well myself. I remember calling my sister Belinda and saying, I'm scared I'm going to be a terrible mother. And she said to me, Whatever our momum did ust do the opposite And that seemed like a really good place to start. I was like, okay, that's good. that makes sense And I thought, well, if I just love him, you know, nothing else matters I was young, everyone was on these care my bestest friend in the whole world on this massive career trajectory because I'd started working on MTV. You are on MTV and traveling traveling, haaving an exciting, glamorous life. Yeah. I hadn't thought about what that must be be like if you're at home with a baby. I was jealous I was jealous of you I was envious. ' funny because I I know. I wanted you life You want I know It's that thing of It'nst every always you have What you haven't got. Yeah. And I just felt so Lonely. Rensshaw was doing a degree in architecture I think it was his final year. So he He was away most of the time at work most of the time And I was at home with Linus on my own, you know, making Shepherd's pie washing the Tweenies. and I I just I felt completely isolated. and that void of you're not enough. He just You know, you're not. It's just not enough You know That opened up again and I didn't know how to fill it. and I was really scared about Bimia which I was still making myself sick then not as much, but it was just a feeling of hopelessness, like I don't know where to go with this empty feeling And and even while I'm saying it to you now, I'm thinking, God you sound just like a spoiler You know, but it It wasn't about that It was about internally, what was going on inside? Well like you said earlier, it's an inside job. good handsad. Yeah, it's all in here. Yeah. and it doesn't matter what's happening O the outside. If you're not well in here, you can't enjoy anything. No. So I got a part time job And it was working with somebody who was taking heroin. They were people that worked sort of in and around the kind of fashion industry and there was an element of excitement and danger to these people because they took heroin. I thought the first time that you'd taken heroin was in India It was. Oh, okay, it was It was. So because that I think that is' the story worth telling because you and I had lunch models one, you might not remember this But you came to You came to Models one. Yeah. And we went out for coffee on at World's End. Yeah and we went to go and have lunch. and you'd come back from India, I was like, how was it? wasas it good? And you went, yeah, it was amazing. Th then we were chatting away and you went, I tried heroin for the first time. And I went what And I's like Why did you do that? And you went, No, I'm not going do it again I just I do I just I just You know, I just tried it I And you were like, o, I mean me and Wrench both tried it and we're definitely not going to do it again And I was thinking to myself, but you know what it did to me? No. Why would you do that? But I didn't say it out loud because I thought, well Let's just wait and see I was really worried after that lunch we did try in India and I had built it up into this thing because of you, because of other people we knew that had had problems, had problems, lost their life to it Yeah and So it was something that was very scary for me I mean, sort of drugs were quite scary for me really because ten years with no drugs. No drugs. and also I didn't like the idea of not being in control or something. Like I didn't like what if I think I've got wings and I want to fly off or Yes What if I go mad? That was a thing like couldn't control my thoughts. Yes. and also you'd been told by the doctor don't do anything no adoltering because it would be dangerous. Exactly is a reality that you think could happen. absolutely. So Hoin was always well, heroin was something obviously I'd had the experience with you, but also kind of Zamo in Grain Chill, you know, people People se their grandmother, you know, to So I was said, o I'm not going to do that. And then we did end up doing it in India and I have to say that the first time I did it, I was very sick. reallyally sick like I'd been pois well, I had been poisoned. And the moment the sick was finished, I was I only to do it again. The thing about it is for me was all those things, the pills, the food They work to a certain extent on filling the void making me feel As good as Mentarily Momentarily not really. Yeah. they didn't really do the job. Heroin did the job I mean, it was like that hole just went And I was normal. It wasn't like I was some craze junkie that was behaving in an irrational way just felt Normal like, o my go. This is how normal people feel. This is how they cope in their life without those voices of your shit, your' fat, your thing, you're stupid. you know, all the voices just disappeared and so I was in I was in, but like you said I just thought that I'm I'm going to be the one in control of this. that that shit that happened to you isn't going to happen to me but she's an addict. Yeah, she's an addict. I'm not and I've got a baby and a husband and a house and a life and a life. I don't I don't need to If I could just do this alongside those things I don't need that career that you've got. I don't need to have a MA in philosophy. know I'll be all right And that's how it was. God until it wasn't Bad did it It got really bad. so I had gone to rehabs. You know, I was in a very privileged position that my husband could afford to send me to rehabs. and pay for therapists And I did those things and that didn't stop me using. Why not? Because I is such a good question that. Why not? because I wasn't ready. I mean, how ready do you need to be? But that void kept opening up every time I stopped. And now I knew how to fill it and And even though I could see my life crashing around me It just didn't seem like an option It felt like, I mean this is the most ridiculous thing to say, and I know it doesn't make sense. and I know that it's not true, but it almost felt like this malevolent spirit had taken over And it was making me do things that I didn't want to do I just tried It wasn't like every time I came out of rehab, I just thought, No, fuck it, I can't be bothered. I tried so hard every day, I'm not going to use, I'm not going to use. And then something would a switch would go And the choice have been taken away from me and I couldn't understand why because In the end Rren sh divorce me. You loved Rrenshaw. Yes. You still loved Rrenshaw even though you were using. Yeah. And you knew if you didn't stop using, I would lose him. You would lose him. Yeah, but still you couldn't I couldn't stop. and What was it like? When did you know he was going to say it? He given me so many chances and I had almost given up on myself and thought I didn't have the courage to take my own life. I couldn't see a life in which I wasn't using heroin. I couldn't I couldn't do it. I tried many times, I couldn't it so obviously wasn't capable of it. and then one day see. called me and we met up We weren't living together at that time. I don't know where I think maybe I was at my sisters I can't remember and He spoke to me and he said It's like they've been, it's like you've had a lover I've lost you to someone else, but instead of a man, it's heroine. and can't do this anymore, Sarah. now, I can't, o God He said, I can't I'm Mar a dot I'm going to end up bringing the children to, you know, a grave And I can't do that to them I have to look after them And so He he said You know, that's it. I can't, you know, you don't seem to want to do it. so And I remember screaming inside thinking, No, no, I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it And I remember him saying becausecause we had two sons then, Linus, who must have been F and beach who was one and him saying I'm going to have to tell Linus. And I just I just didn't want him to tell Linus because I knew Oh, it was just awful and When he left that pub after he said I You better get a lawyer because I'm going to divorce you and I'm going to take custody of the children That sort of sense of hopelessness. But then within that hopelessness, a tiny little flame of hope of like, I'm going to do it this time. I'm going to do it. I remember walking past the house Our old family house where he still live with the children And I remember him thinking he'd be upstairs with liners, you know? reading a story and it should be me that was in there and didn't The house was just there. It was just me and the house and how to get from where I was outside the house into the house. And it seems so simple, justust stop taking heroin. Just stop taking it, you stupid woman. And I just couldn't fucking do it, you know? And But again, that feeling of like, I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it and not doing it If I asked you something, you mentioned Beach there, your second son How did you navigate being clean with him with him. I imposeed this very strict rule on myself that I would use three days on and three days off because somebody told me not a doctor, obviously that The baby wouldn't be born addicted to heroin So that's what I did. And it was those three days off All I could think about was those three days on. And then the three days on were just filled with this awful gil, this terrible gilt of like You know, who are you?'re why why is the love of your children not enough? Like why isn't it enough And I don't know why it wasn't enough, but I do know that addiction is You hear it all the time. you know, peoplee lose their families all the time. but there is something about a mother. losing her own children Pe judge that very harshly So I was ' also scared to get hell because peopleople would be so disapproving, so shocked, like she's a mother. And and I think that's what I think that's what keeps a lot of women and mothers quiet because it's the shame of it. Addiction is more powerful. than in anything and it's difficult for people to understand And I can see that Because as I'm saying it, I'm thinking, o my God, people if they watch this, they're going to think that I'm this terrible person because I chose heroin over my children, which I did. you know, And then I was only allowed to see them with supervised contact You know, that's pretty. just to say that. In the end Rnts are gone, the children are gone. My sister had gone My mother had gone I don't speak to my father You were the only one I had left I could still felt like it could I could still call you up and say, Oh, poor me, poor me You give me slightly short shift, I' then remember coming to stay at your house for the weekend and I was using at that time and I knew I couldn't use heroin because you ady know. So I took a bottle of methadone And and when I left and I hated the weekend because You were this like happy family, you had this great career, this wonderful husband, this book wonderful house, like You know, perfect family and I was this person that was only and the only I was only allowed to be there with my children because you were the supervised contact at that point Rntal had allowed it and I took methadone with me, which is a prescription medicine that the doctor will give you to ease withdrawal symptoms to help stop using And I left a bottle of it in the bin and then do you remember you called me Hry wellell? Yeah. and you went a list it didnidn't you? And you were like, that's say it, I'm done I'm done, I'm done If you're ready to get clean, I'm here And that was very painful for me because I just thought like Sink I was like I mean, I hadn't Sen methadone. Yes And there were some in it Yeah. there was like, some in the bottom and And I was like What did I do with it? It was like a nuclear Yeah kind of I like Wow w. Yeah, quuick I needed to like drive to Oxsted to put it in a public bin so I couldn't go and get it out of a bin. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, I do know what It was like Danger and When I put the phone down from that I saw wonder if she's gonna make Gre skirat because I thought I'm the only one she's got left cut her loose, like is this gonna be it? Is she going not make it? because you'd done all the treatment centers. Yeah, it was like I was really feeling desperate and You know, could Rrenchall still loved you like And I still love you didn't know. to do, he was like, he had not the children. Nothing's working So are just Put the phone down and just prayed please Take care of Sarah, like please do something, something change Um So what happened Then After that for. Yeah I mean, Carry on kneing for a bet. I overdosed That was really sorry I ended up in some Hostile in Elscourt I know. and was two people and who I didn't really know, one I did one person I'd met in treatment And the other person I didn't know and she had She had I think she did have three children. they'd all been adopted now, she'd l them more was really bad and I was using and I'd never used needles before And she said to me Well you're not you're not smoking it. if you want it, you're going to have to use a needle But by this days I don't give a f. whatever just do it. And I overdosed and I ended up I remember waking up in an ambulance and u paramedic saying to me, who's the prime minister How many fingers am I holding up? Who's a prrime minis And I didn't know what had happened to me u told me you've overdosed and this Fear gripped me. of Oh my go, am I gonna die? because I had no control now, I'd taken the drg. I didn't know how it work. likeike, am I going to die now? And he took and they took me on a stretcher into a room where I think I was injected with adrenaline or something and The doctor there was quite harsh with me. I was wasting their time. Yeah. Like there were people who were really sick and need them. And here was I some stupid junkie overdosed and they were having to that's how I felt. I remember saying I'm sorry to him. I'm sorry, I'm sorry And I was crying because I was frightened. I was crying because I was frightened. And I thought how have I let it get? How has it got to this? L how like nobody else is doing this, Nobody else is making me do these things. I'm doing this. Couldn't understand how I'd let Let it get this far And he was very sweet and said Do you really want to stop? Yes, I really want to stop. You know, here's gave me some pamphlets or something And I came out of the hospital and I remember sitting on a bench and just feeling so utterly hopeless, lookingking at the pamphlets, thinking it's too late You know, that It's just too late and then going off and scoring again. I mean the insanity of it and the absolute insanity Ds. Give me a fright And you know, a couple of other things happened, but I'd sort of come to a decision. evenven I can't really explain it. I didn't have this epip I didn't fall on my knees and have some spiritual awakening, where I thought, I've ve given up, you know, I'm I've stopped No, I never had that I think you just don't stop trying Didn't stop trying Yeah. Even though there were times of hopelessness. Yes There was still I always think of it as like I was on this merry al was like a misery round around around on the misery round and these exit signs flash up And you either take them, yes, or you don't. But you don't know when the next one's coming. or if the next one's coming. Oh God, that's a very It's a good one. It't it a visualization and Caps missing those exit signs. Bing seeing them but dismissing them and I just took one And I stopped. and one day turned into I didn't go to treatment. I did go to meetings I did go to one our meetings and at that point, if somebody had said to me, you need to St in the corner, I was upside down in a Bcket of pigs wellell For forty eight hours, to stay clear and I'll be like, o yeah yeah, sure, I'm doing it. That's whatever it. It' the same. Yeah. When I was ready, when you were ready have done anything. But what was so weird, Dave is Why I was ready then and not earlier? Yeah. I don't know just don't know, but I do know if you just keep trying. Keep trying Ay give up. It does Work Yeah. Do you know what? You wrote me a letter? I don't know if you remember that. I do remember writing a letter, yeah but I don't remember you wrote me a letter. And I got it and this was after You know, I'd said, right, contact me when you're When you're willing to get clean. Yeah. But you wrote me a letter, All my tits and anything Iint nice. A you enjoying that? Yeah, it's why I'm used to. That' why we're all used to that I read the letter and I was like, she's clean I knew from the letter. What did I say in the letter? You were humble. Oh, okay. That's so interesting. Yeahah, because I was also so full of It was it. a completely different you It was an old you. Yeah It was like reading a letter from my old friend. You could say I was back. tootally. Yeah, that malevolent spirit had gone Yeah. And I called you immediately. Yeah. And I was like, you're clean and you went, how do you know And I said, You humble. And you and you were like I am. And I was like, rightight, I'm coming. It was like wild horses couldn't keep me away. I was like, getet me to you immediately. C to your flat. L I remember being at your flat. and us just being Like straight back to normal again. Yeah you were so different. Yeah. So it was incredible And I was all in like We're here right back together again. Yeah. like we'd never been apart. Like we'd never been apart. So what happened then because You obviously had had no contact with the kids. No. Rentchall had given up on you. Rinch' given up on me. So how did you start to rebuild the trust with Reninchaall? Primarily from staying clean. Yeah. And like you said, you know when somebody's clean up. Yeah. you know So he knew And I was allowed to come and say goodnight to the children and read them a story When I was three months clean. I'd had a dream. that had been my dream Inide the house. Exactly. that had been my dream. just just to say to preempt that For that three months clean, I'd had to have urine tests by the doctor to show Rnchel that I was clean. R Um And when I got to that three month stage, I was allowed to come and read the children a story. Sometimes I'd stay for supper U Yeah, sometimes he cook me supper in my old home with the children upstairs Yeah, like wow Sometimes after a while, we'd end up in bed together Oh wait. Yes. What like having sex? Having sex. Yeah Sorry, Rrenhaw that he won't watch this. He won't watch it. No. Okay, it's fine. We can talk about it. Is it fine? You'll never know. But what Did he Ever make you any promises then, never. In fact I was I always thought once I clean I had this dream that we get back together because usually when people divorce, it's because you know, there's been adultery or they've fallen out of love with each other. But that wasn't the case for them. No it wasn't. We still loved each other, but yes, there was this huge other bloody great thing thates And now that thing had gone We hoped So the love was still there, but there was the trust needed to be eared damaged. it was damaged, exactly. And then it slightly changed because then they were allowed after I can't remember how many months, six or nine months, they were then allowed to stay with me. So he would come round and read them a story. Now bear in mind, I hadn't been out for about three years, you know My going out involve going to a meeting And somebody had called me up and said Did I want to go to some kind of spprancy event, the VNA And I said, yes, terrified terrified And I remember getting all dressed up. I didn't know I hadn't dressed up for so long, I didn't know what to wear. I didn't even know what I liked anymore. I was like, oh go, I look ridiculously And he came round to say good night and read the childildren a story to my flat. And I opened the door and I was all doled up. And he was like, Bloody Ell, where are you going I said why I'm going to this you know, spportwnsy event And he said As you know he loves motorbikes. And he said, Do you want me to take you on the bike because it'll be a nightmare of the traffic, you know, blah blah blah, blah bl And I remember thinking, oh God Because I remember he'd said to me before, it's not going to happen again. Oh my god huge partart of the story I missed, the day before the Deree Absolute had come through. Yes. I remember calling saying, Oh my go, the they absolutees come true. That's it. It's over. That's it. So bear in mind The divorce was done. It was yesterday I did yesterday Today, that's why I went out. I thought I cannot sit in my flat being miserable. I've got to get it. I've got to try and start pulling a life back together that doesn't involve wrench for myself So he comes around, o. Do you want to lift the VNA? Yes, okay. And we walked in and I just remember being met by this kind of sea of glamour. and I just thought I can't just I cannot deal with this. I'm not ready for this yet. So I said, I can't do it wrench I can't do it. And he said, Let's out for dinner I was like, why would we do that And he said, to celebrate the end of our marriage, to celebrate the divorce Oh And I was like Oh, I don't know if I can do that But I just wanted to be with him So I was like I feel a little bit weird about it, but okay And he went to this restaurant that we had a relationship with, you know, birthdays, anniversaries, we would go to this restaurant and we went there and I said, was a Friday night, you'll never get a table And he got a table So we walked into the restaurant, sat down I felt very sad You know because I wanted to be with this man and here we were celebrating our divorce. And he said something I need to tell you. and I was like, Oh my God, he's met someone else, you know, Some like suupermodel You know, still those old messages, you're not good enough, you're not good enough I thought, o God, here we go. I don't know if I can cope with this. And he said, do you want to try again And I was like What? And he said do you want to try again? And I said Yes. Absolutely yes But I said also, do you think that we'll be able to so much has happened, There's so much from water under the bridge Can you forgive me? you know Can we forgive each other in some instances And he was like, well, let's try Yes, Rachel. Oh God us. So that's what we did. and how did that work? I moved back into the family home which how quickly Oh, like by the weekend. You know, I book onn the way home, I b the removal van.'s like not wasting any time here. It might change his mind. Oh my god. So but the removal van. I was I was in there, you know, the dinner was on the Friday. I was in there on the Saturday. I have never been more happy. Oh God, nor have I I knew the work. Yeah you had to do both of you to make it work Yeah. But I had no doubt in my mind I would do it I had doubt Did you not? No, no Not that there was love, but I thought was the just so much is he? Is he going throw stuff at me? did when we were angry? He did a bit. He did a bit the beginning. He did a bit at the beginning and I just not surprised. Fair enough, you know? L I had to eat humble pie a lot. And you were And can I just say also? Well done because you really did. I did. yeah. And you never fought back No and you were You know, that was a lot It was a lot because you'd done so well And there you were eating humble pie even though you were doing so well. ye There was a lot to make up for But you were aware of that. I was aware of that and I knew that and I knew that it was worth giving it a chance, you know the relationship is going to be slightly different and And he was making that I didn't I didn't have a voice yet in our When we had that second chance. I still was trying to find my voice. I didn't feel I had it yet I don't know I earned it yet. But I really wanted to have another baby And he was very anti that at the beginning and said You know, the children who are a bit bigger than they've gone through so much We're getting to the stage where they're now at school all day, we can have more of a lifeve to work. For us Why don't, you know, do we really want to go back some babies? But for me there was Well it at the table. Yeah, and it was also You'd be clean be clean and I hadn't had that. And I wanted to do that all the cake sales and the swimming garlars the PTA lu. I wanted to do that because I hadn't been able to do that before And and I It was really important to me to do that Anyway, I got pregnant. Howd still manage that? and He was V very happy about it. And then we had Lucy. He's now twenty Wh healed so much. you know, she I felt she was such a gift that I didn't really deserve that I was given Always giing this another chance And amazing to be able to parent in a way that I wasn't before U It was I was just so grateful for that. I felt so lucky. And now looking at the three of them can't imagine life without Lucy. No' such a weird conceptet rocket Yeah And then I remember you being like I want to get remarried. Yeah after you'd had Luer. And I remember thinking I really don't And like I remember Saying to Rnthort Do you think you might ask her? He go, Div, it's none of your business It's none of your business. I think, God damn it. I can't pill know, I can't like I know, butt you don't you remember we went away from to New York to New York. Yeah forortieth. And one day he said to you, Listen, I want to take Sarah, I think we went for three nights. I want to take Sarah up on my own nonights. and we were like, He's definitely. You're definitely going to ask me.' definitely going to ask me. I like, Ohh my good, he'sinitely gonna to ask me. In't, couldn't? And we get to the restaurant and I was like, Okay, come on and he said I know you think I'm going to ask you to know But I'm not I'm gonna ask you when I want to ask you, not when you and Davina want on I was like, o, that'd terribly disappointing. I was like, Oh, no I remember saying to. We were like what? What the hell? C come on to the other side of the world for this and I'm not even gonna to bloody do it. I couldn't believe it. And so I'd sort of given up on that. it was And then Yeah, we both had. And then It was Christmas. How many years ago was it? Well, if Lucy's twenty now, must have been like sixteen years ago, maybe seventeen years ago It was Christmas and we were all on the bed, me, Wrench and the three kids and they were opening their stockings, their Christmas stockings and Wrench had done me a stocking. and one of the last presence was A wedding ring. Bedding right. And u He said, Will you marry me And I was like I don't know why I'm crying. I know because it was a so. I know. So. A few months later We had a very, very small wedding The only friends of mine that were there were you and your husband and children And Renhaw and his brothers and me and my brother and sister, and that was it. Because my parents weren't there. Linus walked me down the aisle and gave me away. God, it wasant. Little Beachy Red, the Velvetine rabbit and Lucy was bridesmaid And Yeah, it was magical. It was perfect It was really perfect It was the most but what I remember Is that So how clean must I have been then like? I don't know S six, seven years clean or something around that. like, you know, a while. And we've been back together, obviously for a while I remember getting to being absolutely fine, excited about the wedding and then getting to the door of the church where Linus was waiting for me. and seeing him and just losing it I couldn't I just couldn't stop crying. I don't know if you remember. I just I'm not going to be able to get down the aisle and I'm not a big, big crier like you. I like you I can cry, but I just and I do quite enjoy crying, but I can s it' like a big It was like all the things that had happened over the years and so much had happened. Yes It just felt overwhelming. it felt too much. Yes. And then getting to managing and sort of liners hanging on sort of looking at me like, you're right, mom And then just sort of seeing Rrench at the end of the aisle and thinking, oh God, there he is, you know, And here we are. A everything. A everything, here we are. Literally beginning and end of everything. and that is the story. yeah It is the most incredible love story It is You withstood all of that. Yeah. and you are still so in love. Still so in love but is also You know you Wrench and Iy Have all known each other for so long And we have all been through so much, you know, more recently with you in your boobs in your brain and There has been It's just extraordinary to look back on All those years, nearly forty years of love and friendship and Can I just say something actually Hm? I'm going to acknowledge God, I couldn't have got through last year. H I was really lost It was very frightening You kept me grounded I was really in danger of losing my mind. And I couldn't have got through it without you. I'm so unbelievably grateful to you for that Thank you. I love you. I love every more. And the thing is that we both being through those things where we thought we were going to lose each other. You know, when you had that brain Tuma I It seems to me there was a very real possibility that Yeah, something terrible would happen. Yeah And there is nothing something like that where things come into focus so clearly and you see what's important and all that past that we have had with each other just comees so and cddertainenly nothing else about us. Yeah. and like going through everything with my dad and like you've just You are in the fabric of my life, your children. I said that in the forward. Yeah. Your children are in my DNA. Yeah. If anything happened to you and Renshaw, I'm taking them all on. Yeah. You are. It's the same. And We are family. We are family. We are family and somet time family. Chosen family and we've discussed this before but how chosen family can be so much cllose eye. More important, I mean Definitely, you know, with with my parents and So Sarah, yeah, I want to end on something. What have you got something back there? Yeah. Oh my go What is that S anamazon token no. I'monna read you something. Oh go Okay Are you ready? Yeah Oh God Oh Goden them. It's very difficult to know what to say to someone who's given us so much. I'm wing up just thinking about it I know Mum often worries that her trouble years have fucked us up that what she did way back then had a negative impact on our future lives I'm sitting here Stning a wedding with the woman of my dreams trying to find the time in and around the job of my dreams Beach is sitting in Paris all the things we know he dreamed of doing And Lucy is living all of our dreams Just having fun at Uni without a care in the world All I know of you. is that you've given your life to us Every day I can remember You've made us feel safe and loved And we've not questioned that ever for one second You didn't fuck us up You made our dreams come true. This We all cried when we got. Oh my go. Linus is an amazing writer lightight, isn't he? Yeah. Such a gentle soul Oh that's so lovely. So that's for you. Oh thank you so much. Oh dear, thank you, Sarah. well thank you for asking me. It's so funny because I thought I thought, it this is going to be so weird because like we're friends. like we're just Well like I want to chat about things that we can't talk about in front of the camera. I don't want' talk about me and you and what But actually it's been incredible. It's been so moving. And I think because you know you were there, it's not like well, I've literally loved it so much. That' so funny Round of applause everybody, please. Well, thank you, everyone But just in case you missed this episode here If you love this episode, I know you're going to love that