Alex Stamos on AI Cybersecurity

Though for many of you, he needs no introduction, let me introduce Ron John Roy Ive first started reading Ron Jean Roy's writing. In twenty twenty one He had wr written this newsletter called Margins and I thought it was a terrific newsletter. I saved it. I spent my winter break reading it. I DMed him. And byy that January, we had decided to do an emergency podcast about a crazy financial situation. and then Ronja and I kept talking more and more. And then by january twenty twenty three, I wrote to him and said, hey. Don't you want to just come and do this every week? and lucky for me and lucky for us on With anyone involved with big technology podcast, Ron Jun said yes. And so getting a chance to speak with Ron Jun every Friday is an absolute joy. It's definitely one of the highlights of my week And today we're thrilled to be able to do our Friday showhow live here with you with your audience questions and then we'll just run it tomorrow, like a normal podcast. So I hope you're ready. We definitely need your participation, and please join me in welcoming Ron Don Roy Got him on. I'm going to take these off though. We'll get into the snap spectacles. This is This is a medium risk maneuver because I have this microphone on, so Those are the snapchat speacles. These are not the snapchat spectacles. They're the original Developer Beta edition, though, so They're not the new ones, but I had twenty twenty one. Now everyone knows how cool you are All right, should I start the Myicalsevin Spiegel. That's right.ah.'s all right, little cool All right, let's do it How would I start it U didid I throw you off? Yeah? No, no, no, I didn't write this down. Okay, I'll try to do it right Snapchat comes out with new spectacles and we take your audience questions. That's coming up right after this on a big technology podcast Friday edition, recorded on Thursday. This summer, Fandoo is the best place to bet on goals. Including equalizers. Uhuh Followers? 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Audience, let's hear you The way this is going to work is Ronda and I will break down one story and then we definitely welcome your questions, your prompts, your arguments with us If you don't have anything, we have plenty to do, but we'd love to have your participation. You can line up at either of the mics there to ask us a question. Let's start with our top story this week. I promised myself when this summit was being planned that I would not be mean to snapchat However, Snaptat has left me with no choice, John. let's roll image C, please Listeners, if you are listening on the podcast, you'll see what we're looking at the audience here is a im image of Evan Spiegel on CNBC wearing the latest Snap specs. The headline is Snap stock falls after AR specs debut Um Almost twenty years since the launch of the iPhone, people are ready to think about computing differently, Spiegel said in an interview with CNBC. The market reacted differently. of Ron Jhn, let me just go to you quickly. Do you think that you know Snapchat and Meta and all these other companies have been trying to build this AI device of the future for years and This is what we're looking at. This is what we're looking at. You kind of ruined my surprise. Can we go to D, please I mean I brought them. I had to bring them after sending Alex. Is it time for us to finally accept that we're not going to have an AR device Interesting. So So these again, I got these in twenty twenty one. It's actually a very cool technology. Like it's no I'm serious, augmented reality. If you ever use Magic Lap in the twenty ten s, like being able to paint throughout your room and walk around that painting, being able to play games where you're chasing zombies, again, my seven year old son actually is probably the only fan of Snap spepectacles in the world right now. He still loves using them. He also likes to watch YouTube on them, which is kind of amazing. But I think That form factor in the experience is amazing Vision Pro has not quite captured it what we just saw on Evan Spiegel' face is going to capture it. I think eventually maybe Apple or someone will, but I don't think we're there yet, but I think we will be. I still am betting on AR eyeglasses of some sort Here's some of the social media reaction. Does anyone, anyone that works at Snapchat have the gut to tell leadership that these things are ugly? That feeling when your glasses are so heavy, they give you cauliflower ear Snap is the best brand in the world when you're sixteen and the worst brand when you're to be associated with when you're twenty one Um The people who actually buy two thousand dollars AI glasses aren't teenagers. If you think you really want to wear always on camera around in public, it should have to look like this with a picture of Evan Spiegel U Let me make the case that it's over Good, because I'm going to take the other side. I think that the iPhone seri that released that we just saw, so Is anyone here listening Rondjown on Fridays. We have listeners, all right. So you'll know Okay. Which direction this might go? What's this guy been begging for for like since he came on the show the first time Better Si. Better Si I think they actually did it. Like the new serory, if you look at the videos, looks terrific And so Maybe this idea of we have to wear the computing on our face is something that like kind of sounds good in concept, but model after model. It's not and the AI device is the iPhone. Okay, that's I that is an interesting direction to take it. I still think the form factor, do any of the audience have like metaay bands or any other device like that, I see a few. L you start to feel as you're walking around, as you're kind of interacting in the real world stuff can happen. that's not just maybe eventually Siri talking to you and using a traditional AI model to actually give you kind of information. I don't know. still I still think AR as a form factor via glasses is going to happen I think you have metorabans. you enjoy them You know, I didn't want to say this publicly, but I have not used them I I mean, I have, but I don't I use them for a bit. And like I said on our show recently, I was in a hike. It was cold. I was ready to get to the summit And put those glasses on and The batteries started blinking red and I couldn't use them I had to use my old phone Let let me say this, like You know, they haven't taken off as a mainstream consumer device. And if you look at the stock of every single company that's pursuing them not good Well Napchat, like we just said, is struggling. Meta, as we know, has its problems No one's looking at these raybands to save meta. Well no, but to me, the Apple Vision Pro is like the more direct correlated product You wantan to know what The best thing about the Vision Pro was? Fign Vision Pro. They put the person on Vision Pro on Siri. And he fixed it. Wait, Mike Rockwell. Oh, so I would not have guessed that the person who made the Vision Pro would be the one to fix Siri after all these years. but I guess if that's the case, that's excited Yeah So you're going to still're going can you put those glasses on one more time Again, I was told backstage this might destroy my microphone, but I'm gonna to try. Do I look cool No No No now. I mean even We were we were joking that Evan Spiegel is goingo to the Met gala with his model wife, like this is like the coolest person in the world and how bad they made him look that if it was like when Zuck wore Project Orion, no one really cared that much. But I think because Evan Spiegel is such a cool looking dude That's why it looks so egregious That's my take. So your answer on the way to make those things work is just be less handsome. That's it, That's it We'll write to Spiegel and let him know No questions. Okay, All right, great. All right. Yeah, don't be shy Yes, it is on. And hey guys if you're willing, let us know who you are. And this is J J Hall actually an industrialist from Sa I am New York a day earlier to join UA. wecome you. Let's give them aks for. Thank you Yes quick question about actually, it's an observation. I want to get your take on this when companies have this gap between what people need today and what they're working on, which is like in future. it can be two plus years out. So they lose that traction from the investors's point of view as well as employees and partners Do you see that that's happening to Ma and others? likeike it happened to IBM and they were living in future with Wats and X, for example So what's your take on that? A can be B to C or B to B examples Okay, thank you for the question. Yeah, no, no, that's a great question. I do think like if we're talking about kind of how the interface for how you interact with a computer I have been begging for something else other than me holding my phone looking at it. and we haven't really gotten anything for a long time I mean, Humane tried with the pin I still think maybe some kind of pin is going to be around Johnny Ibspin at open AI, maybe, maybe at some point. Well Greg Brockman is coming so we'll We got ask about that. We'll talk about thatin But I think like being able to interact with all of this information now being able to like process information so much more reliably with AI, Just I don't want to have to keep looking at my phone and just looking at it on there. But even actually on the phone I'm guessing, do a lot of people here dictate more to their phone right now? Like that's completely changed in the past. like I would have felt weird just dogg to my phone and now I'm constantly using whisper flow and just Tking to whatever. So that' tell a story about you and your wife. I know that o I don't know if this is the most depressing thing or and my wife is not here and hopefully won't kill me if this is being live streamed right now, we're broadcast. So I am constantly dictating to my computer, to my phone. And the other day it was like Friday night, we had put our son to bed. We're both on our laptops and I'm on one side of the couch dictating and then I look over and she's also has her laptop open and is kind of whispering to her computer too and And I'm like, is this the future of future? But it's a new computing interface, so I'm happy about it. Right I look I think the gentleman brings up a great question which is that things are moving so fast, how do you plan right now? And honestly, I don't know how you do it because Every day there seems to be a new capability. then the capabilityities taken off the table, like Fable, for instance. I mean, the tweets about Fable where like people are adding Dave Sachs and they're like, please, I'll do anything for Fable back. just bring it back and he won't bring it back. But it's just like I don't understand how any company does that, and I think that actually would be a good topic for us to sort of get into on a future show. Y Okay, let's go this way Hi, thank you for taking my question. I was curious your views on in the next like five years as Air gllasses evolve. whether Like the chunky spectacles is the way to go or thinner glasses with like upoward compute likeike either wireless here, iPhone or like Division Pro cable down to the battery pack and compute Well, it's a battery for aision pro but it could also have compute onbard So I'm curious like the next five years where you think Cumers will gravitate towards. No,s it's a great question because if you ever use magic Lap, there was like a That's what it was. Here's my hot take. anything, any device that requires a puck Not working. Well how about this though? Okay? What my mind? What if the puck is your iPhone? Oh shit. All right. exxactly. So which gives App Appl an opportunity that like If the compute is taking place on the phone in your pocket It allows you to be much slimmer from a power perspective. You don't want like a lightning cable connected to your face, but like it's still, I think there is it makes me think Apple still has a good chance in this space because the iPhone can do all of the heavy lifting versus this thing on that is really heavy an I canan I ask so what's your name yle Kyle. So what do you want to use a like face computer for That's a good question. See I told you Ron John, this stuff does not happen No, no, Kyle's got something. All right, let's give Kyle an opportunity here you think for I' mean to put you on. But thank you for helping me prove my point Oh, I think one cool thing would be like A shared like TV or something like Imagine Vision Pro and you have just a shared just like movie theater You're on a plane with your family or something and you just have like the shared experience, but it's just glass. I like that. I like that like For me one of the coolest things I always like is you know as you get older, you move further away from your friends. It would be cool to like be in the Vision Proal together. Yeah, s sit half court, watch the Kicks next to Timothy Chale, but we're just in the Vision Pro. But you know what's interesting Apple never advertised that as a social device. All the marketing was just You're sitting alone at home. all you're doing is the Vision Pro. noobody else exists The other big one. Yes, sorry interrupt.. I say the other big one for me is just having lot of monitors around and I'm working. L even though I have like an ultra wide or like three monitors, I feel like sometimes I could have more So just being able to like interact with AI to pull up the exact page I'm looking for out of like I'm one of those people has like a thousand tabs. So just being able to pull up the thing And I just say open up that tab and it just pops up pretty quick Would eight thousand individual tabs in a giant planner's hice be better or I going with this.. All right know, but I do agree like that being able to do more in scaled work and like look at different charts and I think there's that's still and I know like I friendriends who own the Vision Pro who U it for that. stillill They did. They had a nice time. All right, than you, Ky. Let's go here Hey, hey, what's up? This is Sasha Hey from Yale University doing research on AI agents for finance. First of all Love you guys listening to you guys chat on my way to work has been my. I think this is a love eent shared by not just me, but many people in the audience. thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you Appreciate that. And thank you for coming, all the did you fly in Yes. Oh my God. Thankk you for coming. It's great to see you. It's worth it. and I appreciate your sharp line of reasoning and questioning. What's your view on the meter benchmarks of how long A AI agents can work independently being saturated? Are we at that point that of them being at infinite Work number of hours working yet? or are we reaching that soon And what is the world going to be looking like after we hit that infinite mark? That is an excellent question. So first of all, There is some controversy about the meter monitoring, but I think it's kind of directionally accurate, right? I showed the meter chart at the very beginning of our event today. that like you saw these models, they could not code autonomously for more than thirty minutes in twenty twenty three And now they can code autonomously for the human equivalent of eighteen hours, right? So what happens if they just kind of blad past that limit and then they can code all the time? Uh That is an excellent question. Do you have any thoughts I felt that with the goal mode and automation mode It practically felt that they are already doing this autonomously forever.. I to want them to send me reports. My prompt would be if you find something interesting, send me an email. then when I see it, I will come back and intervene. I felt that for many tasks, it's already at that mark Yeah Now, a perplexity computer will basically do that. So that's definitely something that's happening. But I'll just say one more thing and then we'll go to Ranjan. Greg Brockman, who willll be here later, has this like idea of a compute powered economy where like you sort of once you get these bots working the way that you explained, maybe he'll say this later. You just kind of throw them at any problem and then they just kind of work autonomously through it. Now wet we've never seen what the world looks like when you can do something like that But I do think given the progress that we've seen with the models, you would imagine that something substantial will come at a certain point So my day job, I work at a company Riter. We're an enterprise AI company. and the goal mode was asked about recently, again, the idea that you just provide the goal, the agent will iteratively loop and keep doing work until it finds the right solution In the real world, that is like the benchmarks versus the real world, I still think there's such a massive gap in terms of What does the data look like? what is the actual problem? Does the customer or the person actually understand the goal in a clear enough way that they're able to define it to kind of push that forward. so I think it's an interesting I think with a lot of AI, again, even around the benchmarking, like again, versus real world understanding of how to use it, what's happening, and what's available for it to use There's still a lot of work to be done I mean, you can do these goal modes for like less complicated tasks I like What have you gold moded? So I worked with Pplexity compomputer recently To try to like have it find a hotel discount for me. No travel stories. I've been on a This has been for like two years. Every time I remember like Sundar, actually it was, I don't know if you people remember in twenty nineteen Re generered my example. Wait wa, no, I'm just saying, why does everyone when they talk about aentic talk about travel get because travel is such a pain the S. But it's a I don't know. Okaykay I'm sheepish now. No, no, no, hotel discount, hotel discount. I just looked at the hotel every hour and when it dropped behind us below a certain threshold emailed me All right, that's pretty good. Okay, that's a clear goal. I'll give you that is a clear goal Ipect I think you're right that we definitely need better examples than. It's a pet peeve. It's just for some reason, every Apple, the original ridiculous Bella Ramsey commercials around Apple intntelligence, of c, everything is flight booking. And again, like you killed that Bella Ramsey commercial so often. That one the creative agency is just gonna write to you I love the last of us and I love Bill Those commercials still hurt to me What happened in those commercials? U One of them, she's sitting at someone that she can't remember who that person is and in real time asks Apple intelligence like tellell me about this person and my interactions, which again, is just such a weird thing like I'm so much better than you that I don't know who you are and I need to remember who you are and have AI tell me, but and it didn't even come close to working with Apple Intelligence.. That was That was the worst one. You know it would be good for that actually Pull mode? AR glasses? Oh, AR glasses. There's the real world use case. Or the fact that that commercial was so bad Again, proves my point that Air glasses aren't going to work. Okay, sorry Thank you so much for the quest. Thank you. And we'll go overver here Okay, fine. We'll go here. Okay. Hi. Hey. Harris I'm on the board of the Conwealth Club here and I run some programs for the club and I have the small. scenario planning consultancy. But here's my question that I think it hasn't come up here Tob what should we be concerned about in terms of using the AI models them building a database on us and then turning that into advertising So the advertising potential revenue from users Do you think the AIN companies ever goo off that revenue or U that information for advertising purposes Ooh, that's a good one. So will AIs build an amazing profile of you based off of all the personal data and then use that for ads Most certainly someone left one of the companies and wrote about that in the New York Times about three months. Yeah. No, definitely. Yeah, that's coming. think that Advertising is obviously going to be one use where we're going to start to see some of the problematic stuff here. But actually if you look at the ads that OpenAI gave you, it's sort of like more of a and obviously they always come out with the high touch brand And then they will like get you on the direct response, like super targeted stuff once they realize they can't make money on Brand But like it looks pretty good. L if you're sorry to go with a travel example again, but if you're like just researching travel on chat GPT, like you can go into an advertising chat experience and it will help you But I think that like we have never had technology ever that collecting this much information about us. Is anyone here U'm like talkal to like ChatCT or Claude and say, can you psycho analyze me If you're not or give me any insight about myself Just like five of you, the rest of you have done it admit it. It's scary. and we're and that's the like gated stuff and we're giving this all this information to two companies and It's a a trust thing that we don't really know where it's going to go. Yeah, I think It's interesting because again, open AI originally, ads are going to be a big part of the business. Now they've pivoted away from that a bit, but are still releasing ad products At least Anthropic is not. I mean, I don't think they're going in that direction at all Google and Gemini Obviously, one hundred percent will than like probably will get a really good at experience. I mean The more it knows about you, the types of questions you're asking But it is like you know, like thousands and tens of thousands of three to five word Google searches are a lot different than entire thought partnership Thrapy, like research exploration, these models will know everything about you and it is it's terrifying. Have you done the psychoanalyze Me prompt No, but I did. so I use Claude and Chat GPT Gemini. I'll kind of go through the three of them and cycle around. So it is funny. So I have asked like, what do you know about me? L what would you ask back And they all have very different kind of like jagged jarring aggregations of who I am like I don't know. that they' u I don't have one that just knows me. I've done diversify. I've done it with Jat GPT. Yeah. It's pretty good And then like it will first give you a answer that's like kind of sanitized And then you say go a little deeper And then you say get a little darker. Oh. I have not red teamed Chet GPT. I challenge you all to give it a shot Or don't darker. don't don't go dark But if you really want to, Okay, thank you. overver here. Thank you's move on. Let's move on. Yeah Thank you guys, and really appreciate all the work that you all do on the podcast on YouTube. Your conversations go so deep and still very broad, so I really appreciate that. Thank you. We appreciate it. And you're listener of your. Oh yeah happ. Thank you so much. It depends on where I am. Amazing. Areciate it. And know my name is Saoji. I'm an advisor for startups in AIpace. been in product management and go to market strategy My question for you am somewhat related to the gentlemen before You know, there is a lot of coverage on agents and what agents can do and a little bit about the governance and cost control what I don't see a lot about, you know, is, you know, agents do drift sroably why we don't have Bet examples than travel And you know, over a period of time, they don't get better at that specific you know understanding of the people and the business context and the operating model they are working in Um and you know, learn from it and I was wondering there is there a lot of conversation that you guys are seeing around the learning of the learning layer in the agents And is it too early or, you know for that to happen. And the conversation is mostly around governance and cost and access. That's actually a good question for Rjan. Yeah So again, like working in this all day and thank you for the question. I think what's going to happen I'm already starting to see is like Six to twelve months ago The approach was just jam as much information into whatever system you can. We were kind of promised that it would just work. And AI is just going to and like there's, you know, you'd get this feeling that oh wait, a hundred page PDF it actually could parse and I can get information out of But then when you're doing that at any kind of aentic scale It doesn't. And I think already, like how information gets chunked up and like distributed in different ways and context windows. everyveryone would see like one million token context window, but we didn't really know what it meant And now more and more like, and I actually think this is going to be one of the most interesting professional opportunities and areas to be an expert in going forward is like being able to kind of, it's funny, like It is as much art as science right now But I think like the more you can start to grab a hold of how information flows through these agents and how you actually get it reliable It's going to be a really, really interesting space. It's not It's no one job right now Okay, thank you for the question. All right, we have seven minutes, three questions. Let's see if we can keep the questions brief and we'll keep the answers brief and we'll get to everybody I try to be quick Thank you everyone. bigig fan of the pod, by the way. Chris of way. I'm one of the co founders of a company called Virus Watcher. I'm here My colleague. Oh cool. Flew He Alex. He flew in from Austin. Nice. big fan. We got a couple of Dallas folks here today Who's Dallas? shhout out Dallas. D. Okay, go mad.. Oh yeah, we're big in Texas. I'm going go in a different direction with my question. is I want to know kind of what y'all's thoughts. and honestly, if you can ask this kind of later on with Greg Brockman and others What is the thought on using AI models and AI and technology for biological intelligence, biourveillance and public health for emerging risk detection with infectious diseases. is a very interesting project that we're working on. We have a lot of epidemiologists on our team We were just at the UN two weeks ago with the World He Health Organization and trying to discuss these problems and how we can use the technology to kind of detect these things early on. So I kind of want to get you guys thoughts on that. Can I ask you a question back If you could give a brief answer that would be great. Okay. Are you a believer in the bio capabilities of these models like Fable? Like do you think Anthropic made the right decision by them. Waitit, bio capabilities meaning like you're talking about biological weapons. He's talking about like disease. I think that way he's gone to biolog His answer will give us insight into the quest I mean, I think it's it's a very touchy, you know, it's a There's no rightide answer, I don't think. but I do think it probably did more harm you know than you, not allowing everyone to kind of take advantage of. So're not you're not basically worried that today's cutting edge models could cause and the new bio threats. No, I am, but I think there's also a lot of positive that come out of it as well. Let everybody use it though yeah I mean, I just, you know, it doesn't even have to be a fable style model. We can you can take a frontier model toist still a more rightight a safe custom model. Yeah, safety what, you know, safety standards involved, but I sorry, I don't want to too long on this one a great question. Ranja I in terms of the first partart of it I do think again, and it's one of the underappreciated things and I feel in the AI industry, like disease prevention and scenario modeling around virus like we don't talk about that stuff enough Whever is trying to talk about it, it does not get listened to enough. I love the kind of work you're doing and like those kind of stories would bring the AI industry a little bit Better reputation, I Yeah. No, I agree. thinking about biological weapons. No, I think that if well, if you can do one, then you could certainly do the other Am I I don't know I'm not Is one like butt Okay. I actually have no idea.'s giving me these problems here No, I hope that we can. and we I know it's a very, If we're going to speak with we'll hopefully have some time to talk about health with Brockman. Yeah, I'll love. Yeah, if you can have that. Okay.. Thank you for the question. Over here My name is Heidi. I your linking online friend. That's right. You messaged me yesterday. Yeah ye. Thankk you for Puts jin this event see each other in person. My question about her before you was a different speaker mention about China. So I'm Chinese. I curious about her Why do you think China is important be this partnership with USA special high tech. S question about R. So you mentioned a lot her RM larage model. So my question about Greamli, GJDP and Clouuddy and Anerson Which one you would prefer? Think about it in fature is more stronger, smarter ino fature. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the question Well, the question on China is Sorry, what's the question on China Why you think it's important Billy's relationship with USA. So yeah, thank you. You know All right, I will take that question and then Rondjan will answer which model he likes better. Um You know, I think that we're obviously in this competition. the US and China are in this competition and there's like a lot of suspicion on both ends. You know, I've said in the past that like it would be great if there was better cooperation between the two countries And people have told me that I'm naive, but I'm not going to lose that hope. I think that if If I mean, in some ways, competition is good, right? because then you'll just have everybody striving to build the better thing you know, we just talked about AI for health, if the countries were able to work together maybe on specific initiatives That would be much welcome I think The most interesting part of like US versus or US with China in terms of AI in the last few months The conversation around moving towards deep seek and adding it into your agentic process or adding Chinese models did not exist in any conversation I was in twelve months ago and now is in almost every conversation, at least as an option because cost has become such a larger part of the conversation. So I think it's a good thing. I think the more integration there is overall across these systems, the better. Yeah, but watch out for la Chotonat No the shopping fair We said that holding hands of Dario and Sam is my favorite med whole year. Okay, we have one minute left, but let's see if we can do it in a minute. I'll go through this quickly. Hi,' Maria Sarah Robertts Simmon, Business mananagement Consulting. My question is a little bit different. As we are evolving into or entering or in a world already where endless possibilities are available, where and how do you see the evolution of the responsibilities big tech companies have in supporting making this world better, not the product and our engagement and how we interact with all the screens better, but rather like the real big problems that the world has. and not because they should, but because they can. So how do you think about the evolution of that as we step into this world I'll answer that. Or you want to answer? Go ahead I just we had a backstage. We had a long rant because I'd forgotten that Anthropic is a PBC public benefit corporation. I still think there is a responsibility I don't actually see it happening in any kind of way because competition is so fierce. Now I wish it would, but I don't see it happening Um, Um That was a good answ. comeome on. I want to make people make sure everybodyes All right, gets to coffee. Oh, no, screw it, I'll answer it So Jeff Bezos, so I think they have an obligation to do good for the world. I don't know if and I know people within the companies are are very serious about that. So they have their own side projects. But I think, you know, as a society, maybe we can't expect them to do it out of the goodness of their own hearts. Jeff Bezos was recently During an interview and he said He said, I think what I do in the private sector is going to outweigh whatever I could do charitably I disagree with that. And I think that that's just the mindset of a lot of people at the top of these companies. And so Everybody else needs to be aware of that and not count on it even though it would be nice. So that's my perspective All right. Ronan, will you come back with us after the break and speak with Alex Stamos and I about whether U This mythos and fable stuff is material or marketing. You know, I would love to. You guys want to get a coffee break You guys are right. than you very much Switch up the way you play slots with new flex spins on Golden Nugget Online casino. Now you can earn and redeem spins on the slots you actually want to play. New Golden Nugget players get five hundred flex spins on your choice of over one hundred slots. Just play five dollars to unlock fifty spins a day for ten days. Use your flex spins across a variety of popular slots like Huff and Morepuff, Catch Eruption, Cleopatra, and more! The choice is yours. Download the app today and sign up with promo code Nugget onene That's promo code Nugget one to make any moment golden. 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This reality TV spin of the week has been presented by Fanatics Casino, where the house always rewards be twenty pl inew Jy Pennylania or Michan G gbling problem call one eight hundred gambl. So you may have heard that AI is in some trouble in Washington And that story has led to a lot of guessing. People have guessed are these models actually that dangerous? How much better are they than previous generations? and do they deserve to be restricted by the federal government We've certainly done a lot of guessing. and I think the only way to get to the bottom of this is to speak with somebody who is deep in the weeds on the cybersecurity aspects of AI models, someone who secures them, and someone who has spent a career working in security. And that would be Alex Stamos. Alex Damos is the former Chief seecurity Officer at Meta And he's a current chief Prouct Officer at Corridor. Roga and I have this debate all the time is what's going on with Mythos marketing or material Well let's get to the bottom of it. Ron Jon will come out and be my co interviewer for this one. So ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Alex Damos and once again, Ron Jon Roy Alex, boring timimes in your industry. Yeah. It's an honor to be here. I am by far the poorest person in the afternoon lineup. It's like I bring down the mean net worth by a comma, I believe. So I do appreciate being here. Well, Alex, I don't want to ceue you into podcas or finances, but I think you're good. have the guest, I guess, yeah ye So talk a little bit about we're obviously at this moment where the government has pulled down or basically forced anthropic to pull down fable or mythos its frontier model. Right. Yes. What happened? So just for recap for everybody last Friday, U What happened was the White House became aware of research that Amazon had done. It is not Unreasonable for Amazon to do this work, right? So Amazon hosts anthropics models in what they call bedrock This includes in all of the classified spaces. So if the NSA is using anthropics models, it is running in AWS secret clloud or top secret cloud So Amazon is doing security testing. I expect This is part of getting ready to host Fable and Bedrock and found some things that they wanted to complain about with fables. protections that make fable different than mythos. I guess we can talk about the exact ones Amazon had sent over these results to Anthropic. There was some disagreement between Anthropic and Amazon during the week of how serious they were Now, I don't have the exact details here, but somehow apparently Andy Jassie, the CEO of Amazon, mentions this to somebody at the White House And the White House freaks out And according to reporting callsazon are anthropic and is not happy with how quickly they can get Anthropic on the phone. Anthropic is asking for more technical details. They're not able to get details from the White House of what the White House wants. So the White House orders them to take Fable down H. Anthropic says, no, we can just fix these issues. whyy don't we work it out together? And as a result, instead of working out together On Friday afternoon, something around five PM Pacific time, the Commerce Department signs an order saying that the models are designated export controlled and that no foreigner, including the foreign citizens who worked and actually built the models themselves can can touch them. whether or not the administration actually has that legal power is disputed. But Anthropic decides to actually follow through instead of immediately getting a temporary restraining order. and they because they have no ability to make sure that no foreign citizen is seing the models actually pulls them down both Mythos, which was privately accessible as well as Fable, which was publicly available Now you spent a career working in security. Yes Ron John and I for months now have had this debate about whether All of this talk of doom and super powerful models from anthropic like, for instance, mythos, a model so powerful that you can't access it whether that represented a real capability increase or whether that was Just marketing And it's a step change not really a step change in capabilities. So I actually want to toss it to Rajon who is firmly on the marketing side of this thing, just to make the argument of why you think this is marketing, and Alex can address that. Yeah, I think trying to understand what is that capab new capability that is so dangerous, what is that step change? I think the reason I get so suspect on it is how perfectlyord coordinated a lot of the marketing and communication are around how they roll these out. Like again, midthos is the most dangerous thing. There's someone eating a sandwich in a park that actually got like where the model broke out of containment. was like a PR release. was It was a very coordinated thing. So is that danger that they're trying to kind of bring to the world? Like what is it really? What does it look like feel like or what is it actually going to be a problem How much money do you guys have writing on this? Well, how would we even play this? Like I don't even know like as a bet. As a bet, Like is there a polymarket Yeah. know I'm trying to see My my angle is here. apppparently I have no, you are the person that Trump act. You know the answers here and we have just been kind of like debating just like here We just argue on So okay, so's actually it's actually a little bit of a complicated answer So Mythos is almost It is The best bug finding model We know about them for sure It is most likely the best bug finding model in the world. And I say most likely. because We do not know what the Chinese secretly have in their labs. But for all the stuff for which we have open known security evaluations for It scores the best Is it the avenging cyber god that Anthropic makes it out to be? I personally don't think so. Yes. you're not necessarily're not right it. But but it is it is really good. It is really good at finding bugs From my perspective, the like oppus fluorate GPT five point five, a bunch of other models were here in mythosis here. at bugfing att bugfing and exploit development and it is not here, which is kind of where you would think from reading all this stuff O thing is that Everybody pretends that Mythos was the breakthrough, but that is not true. For people in the security world have been paying attention, this Rubicon was crossed Well last year withith the Opus four series, with the GPD five series That is when the models became better or as good or better than the best human bugfinders. just as good as the best Bgfers, and there's like fifty or hundred of these people and I know a couple dozen of them. The problem is those people are very expensive And they don't scale. You can't Just throw water on them and make them multiply like gremlins, that would be nice. I mean, certainly the NSA would love that. Models can. You can just scale them as much as you want with money and power and GPU's And so that last year was a huge deal Because all of a sudden you saw these ammateur bugfinders Imagine you went to a high school track meet every single kid is posting Olympic World Record timimes. You'd be like, man, they're juicing, right? That's something that happenens. That is what last year was like. like mid mid to late last year in the vulnerability discovery world is the kids started juicing And it's because the models hit this point where they could find everything. And so yes, Mythos is really good at finding bugs, it's really good writing explo Fable is not. And so that is what the whole point of fable is it is The same model weights as mytho Anthropic put a protection in place to keep it from doing the really nasty stuff that Mythos will do and And Amazon has some complaints about that What happened is the complaints Amazon has A number of us have looked at them and then anthropic has pushed back Even with the jail breaks that Amazon has, you cannot get fable to do things that you can't do with the Opus series with GPD five and even with a bunch of Chinese models So that is why the actions by the Trump administration make absolutely no sense because Those models will not refuse at all. You can just ask GPD five to go find these bugs and it will go do it for you You can just ask Kimmi, which is an open source Chinese model, it will go write you these exploits. And so yes, you can trick Fable into doing certain things, but you can't trick it into doing the really powerful mythos stuff. which is like grind on the linux kernel for all day and find a bunch of bugs, which will cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars, it turns out, if you pay the full price And those have not been jailbroken. And so there's no real good reason for what happened So yes, mythos is really powerful only been accessible to a very small number. of companies, it is not. magically powerful The other thing you have to remember here is like Bugs are cheap. Exploits are like we're now drowning in bugs because these models are so good at finding and we have so much bad software We've been writing bad software forever, and it turns out that like Witing human beings writing code and CNC plus plus, especially. was a really bad idea. that like we should not have been writing like buildilding our entire lives, like based upon memory, unsafe languages And then in the presence of these superhuman bugfinders, not just Mythos, but all of them That was not a good idea And so A If you're a pedestrian and you get hit by up F one fifty at eighty miles per hour or McLaren at two hundred miles per hour You don't really care You're dead, right? And that's the difference here is like The mythos is the F one preference. rightos is like F one. Yeah, exactly. and Kimmy or G one five two is the F one fifty. And so You could take the McLaren off the market, but all you've done is actually hurt the defenders who want to have full coverage, right? who want to be able to find all the bugs. An attacker only needs one or two bugs to string together to actually pull off the attack. And so that's why you know so about one hundred fifty of us wrote this open letter and signed it saying this is really stupid because all you're doing is hurting Defenders and you're also really hurting the U.S. AI industry Okay, I think Ranjan wins the debate. Well, no still still it's not a maltarity, but it's It's not all marketing, but like I just want to say like, Mythos is really powerful, but doesn't really matter Because there's so many bugs out there that you can use any of these models to find them What Id like to do is I'd like to shift the debate one away from finding bugs. because the other problem here is like, We cannot set the standard that U. S. AI models can't find bugs is a terrible terrible, terrible standard If you have a if you are writing software with an LLM It has to be able to understand looks like, so it does not write those bugs It has to And that's the trick actually Amazon used was they tricked it into basically finding bugs in individual lines of code because it has to be able to do that to write secure code O American LMs know nothing about security, they will create more security flaws So we cannot create a standard where American LLMs are dumb about security, That would be a humonggous own goal. And that is one of the possible outcomes here of of this whole Buhaa, that would be really stupid And so I think yes, I don't think either one of you wins. I mean as the referee here. I think Ron Jon has a little bit of a You have a point, but Mythos is really good. It just does not Anthropic has pleed up too much OpenAI is rumored to be releasing something that's mythos quality really soon Um And I doubt that they're going to like They'll just give it a number. I think they've learned phanthropic. you don't call your thing like the Cyber Gorgon. That actually would sell Yeah's a. Yeah it sells a little too well, right Right Maybe as a Greek with the Odyssey coming out and I' get a little sensitive about the marketing here, but like you know, let's let's like back off on the naming scheme and move back to numbers, But like I think A big part of this is we just have to like reset the standard of like not bugfing, but the actual creation of exploits and then other kinds of offensive operations, of which there's a bunch of other things you can do offensively with these models. Those are things that we should call off limits, not bugfinding because that is something that we have to do much more quickly than we're doing right now. Can I I just want to try to articulate my point, which is, you know This is all right. So when we talk about as mythos material or as mythos marketing my argument would be like If something was material, it would look a lot like what we're seeing today, right? Like at a certain point, these models are increasing in capabilities You're gonna to want to put some safeguards on them. Yeah. And so was what anthropic is doing that different from like where you'd want to be if you actually had these concerns I mean, I think both Anthropic and O AI have a path in which they have like a KYC model. Now your customer., your customer. Yeah. So open AI actually has a couple levels. They have a public one where you can basically say, I want access to cyber capabilities. and then they have a private one. I believe Anthropic only has the private one right to get access to mythos But u I do think it's reasonable to have some level of gaitating. but in the case of glasswaying, I think it was honestly I thought it was not widespread enough. I know of like critical infrastructure companies that don't have access to mythos right now noobody does right now. Well, right now. before last week, L people who should have had access did nott have access. Now, seeing what happened here You can see why they were so careful Um, But from my perspective as defenders We are in a race against time We have all of these bugs that need to be fixed. And we also have this weird thing where we're like, This whole conversation is predicated on the idea that like the American labs are years ahead of our adversaries And that is just not true. Right. So while Fable was shut down Tuesday of this week GLM five point two was shipped, right from Zida AI, which is a Chinese lab. This is an open weight model. It is MIT licensed. So any of you can go not just download the weights from hugging face but you can it in your own product and you can retrain it It is within percentage points of the top closed models from anthropic and open AI in a bunch of things. a bunch of eValves. We don't know how good it is at bug finding yet, so there hasn't been any good testing here. But encoding and a bunch of other intelligence tasks Almost as good as the best the United States has And that's the best Chinese model we know about Unlike American labs, the Chinese are not going to announce their mythos Right. And so the idea that we should be doing everything in the United States to just be playing defense We're playing like a defensive model here. That is stupid from my perspective. We need to be accelerating our capability to do these things and not just playing defense Well, now I am sufficiently scared, even though I've thought that the Mythos was pure marketing, But but what do we do about it? Like how do we what is that like and I think I share that glasswing Again, why it felt like marketing to me, it was this kind of exclusive club that people were invited to and I actually spoke with people who are using it and they spoke about it almost like it was a club. like, oh yeah, we got access to Mythos, we're spending a ton of money. L I think what should it look like this kind of rollout to actually When they get. In Glasswing, I mean, they're fixing real bugs. they have found like ten thousand bugs. One of the problems with Glasswine is they've found like ten thousand bugs, but they've only fixed a thousand, right? So like you do not want a ten to one ratio of the bugs youve found to fixed Um We just joined a thing called Project Athena, which Chain Guard is running, which is all about fixing specifically open source bugs, right? So glass wing A lot of that is closed source with inside commercial companies We are part of this coalition that is using mythos to fix open source bugs, which is a huge challenge because like just finding the people who have access to that That source code, commit access is difficult Uh, so That's going to be like a huge push. So it's not like just totally BS I do think that one of the things that's going on here is that if these companies ran any modern AI security tool gets their code base, they'd find eighty percent of those bugs. They don't have to use mythos. R. So it's just that they've never looked, right? they're like That's concerning. Yeah, right. so They're like, oh yeah, I've got this raode and they look for the first time and all of a sudden they find they could have done it a year ago or six months ago and found some number or some percentage. I had this conversation with a CEO this morning who's like, how do I get into Mythos? Alex Wh just sa. And I said, don't wait Here you go. Here's an API key for Opus right now. It works today because do not wait for the Trump administration to figure out what they're doing with Mythos Use Opus for eight right now and I guarantee you'll get seventy percent of the bugs you care about. Alex, you're a security researcher, One of the stipulations about getting fable back. So by the way, anthropic I said, they expect able to come back on soon. But one of the stistipulations that's been talked about to do that is that they have to prevent it from being able to be jail broken Is that possible? Yeah I saw you did jailbreak in air quotes. Yeah. No. So we have two minutes left. So talk a little bit about why that's not possible. No, there's actually a paper from NIS. It's like a kind of a Gal completeness theorem kind of paper that basically says it's impossible to make a model that is completely not jailbreakable. Like I said, Fable needs to be able to understand what security flaws are to be able to do its job. I think Butanthropic might What interpic might the game they might be playing here is redefine what jail brereak is back to what their system card says. So their system card says We define different levels of cyber capability, and finding a couple of bugs and knowing who a bug is is okay, but we won't let you like build exploit chains and do lots of long term stuff. And so if they can define back to their system card what a jailbreak is, then they're fine would be terrible for the entire American AI and cybersecurity industries is if the Trump administration defines a jailbreak as having any ability to find any vulnerability in code, because then all of us have to go to Chinese models. That really That's it. Yes Like that would be a terrible terrible outcome And that might happen because unfortunately, one of the news that broke just in the last couple of hours is Politico is reporting that Anthropic and the Trump administration are negotiating what the AI safety standards should be So like I don't know, it's like, Howard Lutnick writing an eal right now. Like I find that a little terrifying. So I am hoping that Anthropic, obviously there's very smart people inthropic working on this. I am hoping that they were able to come up with something reasonable that mo stuff towards exploitation, not bugsinding We have to have the ability as defenders to find and fix flaws. The other thing I just want because we don't have a lot of time. other real own goal here was that this injected a type of political instability and political risk into the USAI industry that did not exist. There are a bunch of companies that are now going to be have to use open weight models because at any time on a Friday afternoon, it's good thing that Fable' only out for a week because people didn't have time to work into their critical path But if If people had been out for a month, And at five PM on Friday, all of a sudden it got yinked, then pagers across the country would have gone off because every systems were have fallen off And so now this week, CIs and CTOs are signing contracts to have open weight models on different hosts on US hosts, They're using Chinese hosts, but they're using Chinese models on