Helping Veterans Through Dark Horse

You know we've heard the stories, Lu Glowing eyes in the forest. sureure You know, a portal opening up at the gas station, fine. aying three hundred dollars for a sweater? No, we don't do that. No, we don't do that. And we don't wear sweaters in the summer, either. But what do you wearing in the summer? I think summer always changes how we get dressed and the things we gott to wear. And you gotta refresh that wardrobe. And that's why we keep coming back to Quinns. They focus on high quality essentials that feel and look amazing, breathable linen, soft organic cotton, well made basics without the luxury markup. And right now, Quinns has got a full summer line, European linen pants and shirts startart at just thirty four dollars. That's right. They've got all kinds of things. Mongolian, cashmere, washable silk, linen, leather bags, bedding, all the good stuff without the luxury markup. Soft tees that are easy to wear and lightweight cotton sweaters that are perfect for summeright Ive found some amazing go to t shirts there. They fit great, they wash great. Wn them all spring and summer. Also amazing towels. The latest purchase I had there was their Turkish ultra plush bath towels. Everyone needs to upgrade their bath towel game and everything at Quins is priced fiftycent to eighty percent less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories, cut out the middlemments you're paying for quality and not brand markup, and guess what? goes way beyond clothes. Elevate your summer wardrobe, go to quintince dot com slash blurry for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns now available in Canada too. That's quQintince dot com slash blurry for free shipping and three hundred sixty five day returns, quQince dot com slash blurry. Fourth of July savings are happening now at the Home Depot with select appliances starting at three hundred and ninety eight dollars Plus, get free delivery on appliance purchases of three hundred and ninety eight dollars or more, no membership required. Upgrade your kitchen with a modern and sleek GE profile refrigerator featuring hands free autofill for the perfect pour every time. And make laundry day easier with two in one washer dryer combo innovation that completes laundry in about ninety minutes Shop top brand appliances now at the Home Depot. offer about june seventeenth to Julyih US only store online for details. It went right through him. There's nothing there. There's no breath, There's no lungs There's probably not a heart They said it was in an instant. In the blink of an eye, he was gone. They told me that there's no way he said that, but it was your brother's voice Call me by name He identified the threat, even though they had never seen one, he knew it's an ID, and the command was to keep moving forward. It's not physically possible that that happened that everybody heard it The only vision I've ever had in my life happens. All of a sudden I'm in Iraack. I'm where it happened. And God shows me this vision of his hand coming down out of the clouds and like literally just snatching up Josh. and I hear him say I've got it This is an episode about Brothers Luke was the older brother. I was the youngest brother. You were the middle? Yeah. So we we have the full spectrum here. Yeah. We have the full spectrum of brothers. Welcome Blry Creatures. We're talking about brothers today We have a lot of stories to tell, but I remember being a kid and my older brother was watching the Growing pains and there were some jokes because You learned a lot from your older brother. Luke had to be, you were like the trailblazer in your family. D when you're the oldest. Man, I remember It's always hardest for you going through because your parents number one don't know really what they're doing And typically I would say my experience from hearing from other famil and stuff is it brrothers from other mothers? Parents are more strict, probably. I know my family because I remember my youngest brother, Jordan. There was an incident when he was in high school and my parents were telling me about what he did. and I was like Oh was he dead? Is he grounded for the rest of his life? Yeah we like now we just like, we got away with it. We took away, we took away some privileges for the week. I'm like, Oh my God. what did I go through? Yeah Eactly. But it's sort of a thing. And I mean having kids now, you know, we have kids. It's like Well your kids are older, but just I think you know more of what you're doing and maybe you get more tired You's gotta be it because I have three boys. and one girl and the oldest has a completely different experience of growing up. hundred percent, it's totally true And we hear that all the time. Well what are you going do about that Yeah. You're like think he's the third parent. So this is a great episode because we got Myelon Myyers in the house today and it's going to be a little Christian rock and roll nostalgia. Yeah And you're in the band Bleach Yes. And for you fourfront record kids out there, right? You were on fourfront records? Yeah. so Bleach put three albums out on Forefront. Yeah and then we moved tooth and nail and did three there. you did And obviously, Luke and I, that's kind of our connection. I don't know if a lot of people know this, but we had a bunch of friends. We had a similar like background in music, like all the old kind of like Rck and roll Christian bands that were on toooth and nail records and some of our best Yeah Brandon Ebble know his best pal Yeah. His best pal and I went on tour. years ago. And so When we kind of circled the wagons, let's try this podcast, we had a bunch of mutual friends. And I think it was good that we didn't know each other too well because I think Well, I was always like the jocke, the like, athlete, they hung out. All my friends were in bands. Yeah. then I worked at a Christian rock station in college in Chico, California, where do your rock foroice It was de it was Y one hundred five. Why did an afternoon show and I got in trouble because I didn't understand how radio worked at the time. so I would just listen put all the play all the music that I liked. It was like acceptance. She played on real estate and you know, fill in the blank. May they didn't have any they didn't have any licensing for it. It's like I got a call from the gym. He's like, stop playing that stuff dude we don't have license we're gonna get trouble. And I was like, a Christian rock station to what Yeah. And that was a fun time for me because I got to meet everybody. I remember Amberlyn came through on their radio. was Stehven and Joe. Oh yeah. and I was like wal in they're like, I was wearing Like a used shirt and they're like, you like the used Like yeah, they're like,, G on this tour and it's like Caleb, we're like we became bros and like ye. it was a fun time. I hung up the guys from Switchfoot. like when they came through. I'm it basically everybody came through to tryed to do radio tours. Yeah. You guys did not come through, but I spend some time in Chico though because it's wrong fr rest of the home team. Yeah. I mean, number one gun Well, Jeff S knew was. Yeah. My best friend growing up. Yeah. so we took them on tour Dude We were on tour them for like a month, two months Yeah Jeffved those guys, messed with them. Oh the best. You guys were You guys were fun. So my band's first show, we played with Bleach No joke. amazing. I didn't know that was your first show. I remember hanging out. Yeah, I totally remember it. That was our very first show. So my music career started with Bleach. And I remember, dude, I have this memory Rripp in your tape on the way tape Going up u seeven highighway seventeen through the mountains of Santa Cruz to Mount Herman. ripping your tape on on headphones. I was probably eighth grade freshman year of high school Those were the days. My mom was like You gott to start listening to this music. so I went into Berean Bookstore and bought your tape.. and I liked it. You and White Cross all the way. Oh wow. so different. All the way about Hrman. this is already a different circle. This is already a different blurry Christas episode. But this is kind you know, we talk about from time to time, this bleeds into the show, right? I mean Obviously everyone who listens know you play in a band called Sherwood for about fifteen years. and we have so many the reasons this show exists is because we had all these relationships before and from the music space. So it's pretty fun. It's fun. I love to have like a full circle moment. We're not letting you off the hook. Yeah. as we start this episode as I was ripping through the hills of Santa Cruz thinking big guy might be out there listening to your music. Who knew all these years later? We'd be sitting here In a pudo rail with that memory wild And what are your thoughts on Bigfoot? He was there. I'm convinced., but he just let me go without scaring me half to death. And then years later here we are. So what are your thoughts on Bigfoot? and then we can get into your story about your brother. I know this is Kind of go a little more on the serious route, but a very blurry story So I'm excited to kind of get into it. What do you think? Yeah, well, Bigfoot I haven't seen a big foot, but I will say going back to touring Most of our late nights because we had to drive through the night. Yeah almost all the time, you know. Yeah. And it wasn't a bus most of the time. It was the van and trailer. And our guitar player Sam would always three in the morning to be listening to George Nori and you know, three the. Oh yeah And so we would always talk, especially if we were in the Pacific Northwest, which just feels like big Bigfoot's there, you know U So we would always talk about these types of things., But even like currently I think there's probably too much evidence to say it's not that it's nothing, you know I don't really know what. Yeah. I think there's definitely a spiritual element involved. some kind of portals or things that We don't really know, but Your mind was open Totally. Yeah. Yeah. It' such a good I mean, that experience though, late nights, listening to coast to coast is like my childhood, like coming back from my grandmother's house. I got memories of like my parents listening to it and I'm falling asleep, listening to it. Yeah. I always thought a band would see the big guy, but it wouldd be hard to. Right. 'ause you're in places that yeah, most people aren't driving already often. Driving all night Yeah, in the middle of nowhere. I'm sure a band has, but it's not going to make the forums, you know. The forums are gone Absolute punk d. com remember that. And those things, you know, like, well that was kind of the two thousands. You guys were long before that. So when does bleach start And tell us little about your childhood and kind of growing up and You know, getting into the rock and roll business. Yeah Well, Bleach started in ' ninety six, like that was the first record. so we're kind of celebrating thirty years right now, doing some shows re recording some songs is fun So That tape you had, Yeah, hopefully we're making some versions that sound a lot better than what happened in ' ninety six I didn't join the band until two thousand I'd been in a couple bands touring and Met those guys in ' ninety nine because my band was opening for them on a three month tour And their guitar player left and they called me and So I came into the fold like kind of halfway through. L the third record had just come out and we toured that in the next couple years and just kind of took off from there But how I got into music, I mean, we were talking earlier about brothers and my older brother was definitely my gateway. He's three years older I got into it really young. likeike music always like deeply like I always felt like It was just something it was a different experience for me. Like I didn't feel like my friends were experiencing the same things with music, you know, It's like it's really all I cared about, all I wanted to do. fromom the time I was ten And that was because we brought home to hell with the deevil. by Striper and By the grace of God, my parents actually let me see that show. Like our youth leader at the church was going to the show and I went in Spartanburg, South Carolina to see Striper. What was that like When I was ten and my mind was blown. I didn't know that could possibly exist. Like all the lights and like everything was just so epic. So hair in the space Ls of hair. You know, we grew up in the days of the Mystery Mobile Luke, justust wondering what Scooby Doo is gonna do. What's he gonna find out there? But today the mystery wagon shows up Some grocery store and drops off mystery meat We don't want any of that. No not at all. We're good ranchers guys. That's right. And goodood Ranchers have been a partner an maining service. I was telling my wife, I think we've been with goodood Ranchers for almost three years before They became a sponsor of the show. I love what they do. I mean, goodood Ranchers partners with local farmers and ranchers to deliver one hundred percent American meat straight to your door. This is no mystery meet. Pastor raise, no antibiotics, no ended hormones. and for Father's Day, they make gifting incredibly easy. You can schedule delivery for A day, you know your dad will be home, add a custom gift message The free expxpress shipping and every order is backed by There satisfaction guarantee, there's no stress about shipping or perishable food You'll give dad Some steaks. Did some chicken this weekend, Luke and threw a couple fillts on the grill myself and my kids love that I get the custom box. so I pick up bonone and rib eyes, bonone in New Yorkks, I get flet mignons, I get chicken breasts. you can really design whatever you want and it shows up When you want to show up, For a limited time when you purchase any Father's Day gift box from good ranchers, they'll throw in free Wagu burgers for dad to enjoy Just head to goodoodranchers. comot pick out any Father's Day gift box and the free Wagoo burgers will automatically be applied at check out You know, because dad deserves a gift that's a cut above the rest Goodranchers. com American meat deellivered So I don't know, that would just like blew my little ten year old mind. And I could never get away from that. Like that was always like I have to do that somehow, some wayay and ended up starting my first band in college And we sounded absolutely nothing like Striper. Nor can I play guitar like Osfox and Michael Sweet, but That was the that was the catalyst for sure. And Josh, my older brother and I would Beacause he was older, he would trade tapes at school, like middle school. Tade he would bring home like Rat and Motley Crw and all the things that we were never supposed to listen to. And we'd go out into the woods behind our house with a walkman and just sit in the woods and we'd hideem in trees and like under stumps and Listened to forbidden music. De That's a blurry story. that's when Sasquatch came to the portal Just looking at you out in the woods or listening to the crew. Yeah. ye. And that's the thing. you know, your brothererss kind of introduced you to a little bit of danger. you know, for me, it was like Yeah. You couldn't ask dad, but you could ask your brother and then you learned a little too much too quick But u I mean, that's the dynamic. I think if you didn't grow up with like brothers or sisters, it your whole life is different, I think. And you don't realize how much like having siblings shapes who you are, who you become, what you get into. And obviously like music, the same thing happened for me. I remember listening to some And I was like, It just transformed. but back in the day Christian music All these kids in youth groups were giving guitars and then they were all starting bands. That was an era dude. I don't feel like that exists in the sort of more digital age. It doesn't. But we growing up A little younger, like Yeah than both of you guys, but not by five years maybe from you, Milam, but All my pals in high school were starting garage bands. that was kind of what You did unless you were playing sports or youth group was the catalyst, you know? Yeah. you had to learn how to play a couple of worship songs and then you're in the with your buddies not true Mike. And you're playing Nirvana songs in the woods right? you know, which' a youth fassard and you you' just not listening. but ye You know, and there was so much music that kind of exploded out of that era. And then I think from like Once they got to their night nineteen twenty There was just Hundreds of good bands Yeah out of the Christian rocks. And it was actually creative. Yeah Like there were All these sub genres within Christian music that's been gone for probably years But getting on the radio, being on mainstream tours, opening it up for other bands that weren't Christian. I mean, it was it was a mixture that we just didn't see. and I think it inspired a bunch of like my friends and me to try and do it. Well we were a few years later, you know, we didn't really crack in til the two thousands 's your younger brother plays drums for you now, right? Yeah. So he's in the band too. Yeah. But you guys you guys were like a unit. I remember when we played with you first time, you were just You guys were fun, you were funny. You look like you were having the best time. I think some bands don go of that He guys you guys played Ple. Yeah, first show Dude that's wild. Sure it with first show yeah. H's a full circle moment, right? Yeah. I mean yeah So we were just a local band in San Los Oiso You guys were coming to play a festival through a mutual friend and we opened the show just a three piece. And then we all went to Denny's afterwards. Yeah I remember Denny's, ye. Grand Slams I don't know. But I do remember that. Yeah ye. Well, that was a thing. I mean, and I remember thinking, man, these guys have these guys have a lot of fun. You guys didn't feel burned out For how long you've been playing music, you felt like you guys were like brothers. Yeah, and it still it's still that way All these years later U very much so And they always called them like, there was a term for like bands that were like, I can't remember that were like best hang of all like all the bands knew, like you want to bring them on tour becausecause they're like the best bang. there was a term. I can't remember what it was called, but anyway, you guys were that band. Everyone wanted to hang out with you, Everyone wanted to bring you on tour. you were going make the tour fun. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that was the goal. was like that was just the culture of bleach even before I got into it, you know. like We're going to see everybody. We're going to love everybody. no matter what they do and who they are and Honestly, a lot of bands don't operate that way, you know? Yeah, because it's hyper competitive, right? Its V very competitive. Well the musicians things go to your head real quick. I mean, Well, a lot of people are good at their their craft, you know, they're a good drummer. It doesn't mean that like their personalities match. Right. But sometimes it's the music matches and their ability to play together and then off Off stage, it's a nightmare. They can't stand each other. They don't get along. Nobody wants to hang out. common. Yeah. Yeah. It's just like The point is to make good music, not, but you guys seem to have both, and that was cool ool see that. hopefully we had both. That was It was c always go better at the music part. but it's rare that you can like, o yeah, overcome personal differences and you fight and then so many great bands ended early because they just hated each other. Yeah. yeah. And that sad part. Even having my brother in the band. Yeah, we never fought We were We were not the Gallaghers of Christian music those guys and they're back. come from a family of how many kids in your family There's three of us. Three brothers. Yeah, o. So I'm in the middle. As we said, oldest middle baby. Yeah. May in the baby Ja in the by.ay in the baby' the probably the least surprising revelation we'll get on this show. Yeah. You just had to deal with a lot as a baby. You had to make a lot of noise to get people to pay attention and you had to know how to do it, right Yeah. So try to create a scene a little bit. Well, they say the middle is like the invisible child, you know? It's a bigfoot. Just phasing out. Nobody knows he's there. The middle child somewhere right here. We don't know where I'm standing right here. Yeah. Oh I'm sorry. But I mean, obviously it's hard to transition into your story because there's so much we could go we could talk music nostalgia foralgia for hours for sure. But that's not why you're here today. And for those of us that are still listening to this episode because they're like, whoo are these guys? What are they talking about? They're speaking some foreign language. I don't even know if they're talking about If you grew up in in the musicen union. It's going Amberlland line, isn't it? speaking foreign language? God They're hitting it all. That's right. We're hitting it all. We gotta like speak in like old tooth and nail lyrics the rest of the band lyrics in the rest of the episode, but we could kind of transition more into like We went out to lunch, and you kind of sat down and you kind of told me a little bit about your story And then it kind of felt like, man, this is the beginning of a blurry moment here And over the years, obviously, when we were starting this, we were getting into some of these rabbit holes and it's gone so many different places. and a lot of people are telling stories that are sort of adjacent to some of the weirder paranormal experiences that people have had. but ye. Blurry is kind of a therapy session for a lot of people to like come out and say You know, this thing happened to me or this experience I went through. You know, I don't really know what to make of it. I don't really have a place for it. and a lot of people just are skeptical of people's stories, but hear Not as much anymore. And I think that you have one of those. So where does it start and I loveve to hear like What do you think about what you've experienced totality of it. Yeah, yeah Well, I guess the best place to start is you know Josh, my oldlder brother. We cannot have been more different, you know, like I obviously followed the music path and creative and all that. and Josh being the firstborn was perfectionists like by the book and in In like seventh, eighth grade, he decided he want to go to a service academy. So his whole life from that point on, which is wild to think as a father now that like a kid would know like that early on. What I want to do at like twelve years old, you know? But he did And everything he did in middle school and high school was like I'm going to serervice Academy. this is what I'm going to do and he achieved that. He got appointments to both the Naval Academy and West Point. I think he was the only person to get We lived in Nevada at the time because my dad was a church planner and He's the only one to get all three congressional appointments from Nevada for the service accademies because you have to have a senator or a Congress personerson to endorse Yeah to give you their endorsement. and he got like everyone you could get and chose West Point because of their honor code. A few years before that, the Naval Academy and this tells you a lot about who he was. The Naval Academy had dropped the end of the the honor code off which is A cadet will not lie, cheat or steal nor tolerate those who do And they had taken off the nor tolerate those who do. and West Point has always kept that and he felt like that was the the right way to have an honor code was that if you tolerate lying, cheating, and stealing, then you're just like those who broke their honor. So. And then he ends up his junior and senior year at West Point being the executive officer of the honor committee. So they sit in like a courtroom and look at these cases of honor, which could be lying about brushing your teeth before morning formation or something much larger like cheating on a physics test or something, you know? And so U that was kind of the thread he carried throughout. life in general, you know? And so IXPX Yes. there it is. did it He did it,y. Anyway, we all speak the sameu. you were playing the game. I guess you're not playing the game. All right, sh up for my career. Yeah If Bigfoot's not feeling good and he's out there, he probably mixes a couple pieces of bark and some wildflowers. But for the rest of us, Luke What do we need to get the nutritional supplements? Be we don't have that we don't have that knowledge. Roughage, right? You're talking about roughage. Talking about fiber. But sometimes I don' think we're getting enough fiber. fiber really is the key to getting your gut back to the place it needs to be. Most people, ninety five percent of people aren't getting enough fiber. modern diets and busy lifestyles make it hard to get it consistently, and that's why Mentus launched Fiber pllus and We've been partners with Mentis for a long time. They really love everything they do. mean I'm super into their sleep stuff. And this new product, the Fiber Plus has been It's amazing. Triple action formula, combining soluble and insoluble fiber. It's about energy. It's about getting your gut right So when it's functioning better, everything you're doing, your diet, your workouts are recovery, they also become more effective. The greatest part is they use clean ingredients, minimal ingredients and unnecessary fillers, no artificial flavors that disrupt your gut. And we use it, put it in our smoothies every morning. If I take their vitamin D every day as well. weve just got so much more energy now, you know. So support your gut health and overall performance with Mementis's Fiber pllus and get up to thirty five percent off your first order at livementis dot com d com promo code Burry, that's liiveMentous. com promo code blurry for up to thirty five percent off Lvementus. com promo code Blurry So in two thousand three, yeah Josh was a cavalry officer and out of Colorado. and he was like seven years out of West Point at this point. He was a captain. And they were deployed to Iraq Skf is the gof for No no, it was this This was when we went right went went into Iraq in zero three. so. A couple of years after nine eleven. Yeah Yeah. So the Bush, the second Bush. Yeah, the second Bush. That' be Iraack. Yeah. All thing think about is Wilferrow pretend to be George W. Bush when when he's rattling the anlers together, you this skid is Look it up, everybody. It's worth your time. So ozero three, he gets called up And They actually deploy, they get in country like The first of April And his unit is like one of the first like to cross the border from Kuwait to Iraq And I don't know, there's a lot of So I said goodbye to my brother april first of two thousand three, and you know When we went into that war It wasn't like it is today where like soldiers had no ability to call home, to email, like there was absolutely nothing. I mean, this was just There's no Starlink. no technology out there at all. Yeah. So You know, we're writing letters that we know he's not going to read for weeks and maybe months, you know, when they finally find where he is U that sort of thing. So we say goodbye and They You know, and it was kind of a crazy season. My parents had just moved to Guam which I didn't even know where that was until they told me they were moving there. So I said goodbye to my parents in February They're off to Guam like to plan a church or they? Yeah, my dad was like the director of missions for the Pacific Islands out there. so it was like just struggling for the Lord and Gam. Yeah. whichich is a beautiful place. It is. but is in the middle of nowhere. Our family was literally all over the world at that time. Josh is in Iraq, they're in Guam, Jared and I are crossing the country in a van or a bus nonstop. becausecause bleach is full steam ahead at that point Um And So we heard from Josh just Ver periodically. Like I got a couple letters from him his wife, Kim, would call us and she would She would hear from him more often through letters mostly, but she got one or two phone calls. He kind of commandeered a Sat phone from a spepecial Forces team and called home for five minutes one time. You know, it was just very veryer distant, didn't really know what was going on, constantly thinking about him. but Josh was one of those people that like he did everything he ever set out to do and he did it with excellence And so even going into that and it was like We are going to be fine. Like Whatever happens over there You're gonna be fine. So I'll see you when you get back, you know? And so in July, of er three Um My wife of twenty two years, Ashley, asked her to marry me on july twenty first. We get engaged And My parents are, for the first time since they moved to Guam, are coming back to the States Dad was speaking at a missions conference in Atlanta And we had a few days off the road. So they were flying to Atlanta on the next day the twenty second from Guam. And so Jared, my fiancee and myself go down to Atlanta We were just gonna have dinner together with them because Jared and I had to get back on the road and celebrate our engagement. and my mom's fiftieth birthday is the twenty third So we get a call on the twenty second that Their plane was delayed in Tokyo that they weren't able to take off. And you know massive time difference and distance they're like, we're not getting there tntill tomorrow. It's going to be tomorrow afternoon. It's not going to be Um I think they're supposed land at like three or four o'clock on that Tuesday, twenty second So my mom's like, get a hotel If you guys can stay, maybe we can Have a quick dinner and you guys can make it back in time to leave on tour. So so we overnight in Atlanta by the airport And That next morning, which is the twenty third I get a call from my sister in law and I thought she was calling to ask if mom and dad had gotten there all right or catch up with everybody because she knew we were all together U but she was hysterical and the only word she could get out is Josh is dead. So that's how I learned the news. My brother was in the shower and he heard me React to that And that's when he knew When your brother' at war, I mean you're always a little on the edge of your seat It's definitely phone calls you don't want to get timimes you don't want to Have that phone ring And so We know we weren't supposed to find out that way. But she had already known for probably To three hours at that point. they had knocked on our door And she just couldn't wait anymore because she knew my parents were unreachable The arrmy had already visited Jared Ny's apartment here in Nashville and we weren't home Like literally nobody in our immediate family was where they were supposed to be. It was this wild, you know string of events And so the army basically tells her We only try two places and like That's it They the protocol is like, Yeahah, we didn't we didn't, they weren't home Yeah. so That's it. So they're begging her not to tell us by phone, but she eventually just like I have to call as brothers. Yeah. So that's how I found out. I'll go into kind of everything that I would learn later. I didn't know much at that point, obviously. I just knew that we had lost him. Probably the The heaviest part of this is that my parents weren't landing from Tokyo for another Six hours after I got that phone call And I can't tell anybody until my mom and dad know, you know Um But like the worst thing has happened. Yeah. And it was just it was a lonely five or six hours. I mean just Plus, you know, you're going to deliver something to your parents that's going to be devastating. Yeah. L like life has changed forever. Yeah We go to Atlanta, they get through customs, and we're just waiting for them in the baggage claim And I remember calling my sister in law in in the interim after things have calm down a little bit And I wass just like, can't you send somebody? Like we're in Atlanta This is a huge city. There's got to be somebody in the army that can show up and meet us at the airport And it was like, no And so I remember standing in that baggage claim and seeing we're at war in two different places at that time. So I saw a uniformed Army folks everywhere Um and just hoping, just thinking, God, please let one of them be here for us.. And they would just walk on by and hoping that somebody else would do what I knew I had to do. So Mom and dad come out, they want to see Ashley's ring. We just gotten engaged. You know, thirty six hours ago. But they immediately know something's wrong. And I kind of pulled them to an area where there were no people And I had to tell him. and You know, my dad hit the ground immediately And I think we held M up But somethingomething in them It felt like they knew what was about to happen. They told me later And You know, they knew the news was coming I seem if something was off. Something was off that morning. and my mom has always had like this kind of crazy discernment And She couldn't pinpoint it, like she didn't know And hoping, you know, it wasn't that. Right. It wasn't anything that tou your out of it too. You're like No Right, right yeah I' just U So, you know, after that's just like a whirlwind that, you know, I knew nothing at this time about trauma and the effects of trauma on your brain and like all the things that I would later have to work through. but Th through counseling and a lot of like godly help yearsars later I was able to understand that my trauma, which happens in a split sacket. like if you see a car accident or you see someone getting killed or you walk in on a family member Like when you experience horrific things, which I had not. I was not there Yeah But my trauma had happened in the airport because I had to be the one I had to be the messenger. It was only until I found a a counselor who was who work for the VA because they do provide Gold Star families with free counseling And this was like eight or nine years later U, And he told me he wass like, My mom like that's not normal Like don' you don't have a typical like Gold Star brother story. Like what happened to you is not okay And so we started digging at that time and He had ask me, like, weren't you in a band? L didid you ever write songs? Did you ever write the music? Did you do any of those things? I was like, yeah, I did. And he's like, well How many songs have you written since July of two thousand three And this was in like twenty eleven And I'd never asked myself that question or wondered and I had not written a single thing. years. And he was like, that's what I thought you would say. And when tra trauma like blocks, I think it's the left side of the brain, which is your narrative and your creative and it kind of tells you what's going on in the world and how you interpret things It basically blocks that off because it's too painful And so he was like, I'm not releasing you from from counseling until you write a song about the airport. Oh man. And that was a challenge. and it happened. And like I remember thinking like, dude, nobody wants to hear that song. L, that's awful. What a terrible song. And he's like, noobody's gonna hear it. Like just do it for yourself, get it out. And it happened. happened that was a bit of a miracle as well. It happened on a jog at Centennial Park in Nashville And it literally just came pouring out of me Like something shifted And so Listen, ancient giants question it. Government governments definitely question it. A paying one hundred dollars hundred for a phone? That's fine. No one questions. What's the conspiracy theory here? The theory is you can spend a lot less for the same service. When people here admit mobile plans are only fifteen dollars fif a month, Nate, a lot of people wonder, what's the catch? Is this real? Is this a conspiracy?. I tell you its not. There's no gimmicks, no gotachas. This is real. Just unlimited talk, text and data, fast for reliable coverage onn the nation's largest five G network An award winning care team. MittMobile took what's wrong with wireless and made it right Premium wireless for fifteen bucks a month. You can even bring your current phone and number, bring all your contacts, and you can choose from three, six or twelve month plans and say goodbye to a monthly bill So ditch overpriced wireless Mint mobile, it's easy to sign up online and get three months of premium wireless service for just fifteen dollars a month. Every time I reach out to doctor Jud Burton he comes in crystal clear, he has Mint mobile and looves it. Well, he's a learned doctor. And he went straight to the source. smart guy. Smart deal. Mint Mobile and he's saving hundreds if not thousands dollars a year using Mint mobile. Get your new wireless plan for just fifteen bucks a month. goo to mint mobile dot com slash blurry. That's Mint moobile.ot com slash blurry. Cut your wireless spill to fifteen bucks a month at mint mobile d.ot com slash blurry. That's it. There's no catch. forty five dollars upfront payment required equivalent to fifteen dollars per month, new customers on first three month plan only Speeds slower above forty gigabytes on unlimited plan, additional taxes fees, and restrictions appl, so meant mobile for details I only say that to say that like I didn't think I didn't think I was a victim of trauma. And there might be people that hear this and don't realize they have trauma. But I had to have somebody tell me they like, oh no, like that's What happened there, the fact that you told your parents in the airport and like I rememember taking their luggage out to the parking garage We had bought Mam a birthday cake. It was her fiftieth birthday And I see the cake You know? And it's just like all these like heartbreaking like moments of like, you know, like you're engaged. your mom's bir. Just that moment where it's like we're supposed to celebrate. Yeah. Mom's fifty. We just got engaged and you know, it was anything but and just that That realization that man life can be really hard. and You lose things that you never wanted to lose. And so I didn't think I had trauma because didn I wasn't on the ground. I wasn't in the humvee, you know? Like I didn't see it But my trauma happened kind of secondarily because of what happened in the desert And so, So' fast forward to the blurry part of this shared with Nate. over lunch So I mean, the military doesn't tell you. they're not big on details.. So you get like this This very cold, sterile like report of incident That tells you your brother's dead. Yeah Um, and They even got the location wrong, you know? It's like sounds like the military? Yeah. It was like they didn't even do that part, right? But you can't really ask questions. But u you know, it is military tradition that someone escorts to fallen home And so one of his best friends escorted him home Its name is Jesse. and We found out in the days following because Jesse was here Um some more of the details of what had happened And and in the years since we've learned a much fuller picture. and some of these things I didn't know until a few years ago, which is wild But we would later find out that He was leading a convoy in his humvee. from Mosul to Fallusjia whichich was like the most dangerous place in the world in two thousand three. Like unequivocally. So that's wherer Chris Kyle was set up Ghost of Falluser. That's right. was the Yeah' supped to be the narliest place you could go.. Yeah, and you're talking about like a few months into U. S. forces being on the ground. So there was a lot of A lot of other groups sneaking in over the Syrian border that they were dealing with. they weren't just dealing with Iraqi like terrorist cells and stuff. there was a lot of things going on. and so they were about to move their They' kind of base of operations to the hottest place in the world, which was Fallujia. So Josh was leading the convoy where they were going to scout out for the day and and basically find out where the unit was going Take up camp So They're traveling on a highway and because IEDs, which is an improvised explosive device, had not really been used much yet. they would later become probablyrob like the biggest part of that war, roadside bombs U All they had seen up until that point was like cheap, trashy, ineffective, like homemade bombs.. So They're traveling and They had just left where they were kind of based outside of Mozul And They're going like seventy, seventy five miles an hour in a humvee And Hidei goes off And I would later find out that the guys that were still back at the base Jesse, his escort being one of them. they could feel that explosion two miles away. That's how big it was Dude And they are not They had not seen that in that war yet So it was new a new tactic and We later find out that there was a trigger man that was kind of off the road with a cell phone that triggered the bomb. we would also learn because it was written about in a magazine that someone sent us a Well known publication that he had a price on his head. J Josh did. They knew it was a targeted kill. Really? Yeah. He had bust in some really bad guys a week or two prior and really messed up their their terrorism and taking their money and a lot of what they were doing. , you know, Josh is, 'cause I have all his letters And he would write about, you know, like I want to be so effective that the enemy knows my name You know And would every single letter, he would write, I'd rather be here knowing that I'm in God's will and doing what He made me to do than sitting on some beach sipping pina cololadas. and taking life easy. So He knew what he was doing He knew I was there Um, And he really felt God and all of it And so I would say he kind of achieved his goal because they did know who he was. Yeah. And you know, in those situations when you sit down and have lunch with a a sheikh or a leader or a mayor, like he was constantly in these meetings almost on a daily basis You literally represent the United States of America. Like he's just a captain who's twenty nine years old, but he's literally sitting at that table representing. an entire country, you know. U and so The bomb goes off. There's I don't know how many vehicles were in the convoy, but it wasn't a small convoy. His colonel was in the vehicle right behind him and was kind of first on the scene Um His driver, a guy named Tim, who was with him Everywhere they went in Iraq, every operation, every night raid, everything they did, Tim was Josh's driver They were really close And so The story I know is from Tim who was driving that morning. And They're traveling down the highway and bomb goes off, which obviously rocks this humvee. I mean this humve has no doors There's a gunner sticking out of the roof, like a turret gunner. Yeah on sergeant. Y. You know, constantly looking for danger And The bomb goes off in the road Tim, here's a command His commander' sitting right beside him. Josh is sitting shotgun And the command is Sergeant, it's an ID. Keep moving forward in that moment Tim just guns it. Like this explosion This humvee's not moving very well But his instinct and his training is just like, I'm gonna keep moving forward because they knew There would be one blast and then they would follow it up with another one to finish everybody off So he guns it. The humumve just kind of hobbles. like there's all flat tires, it's been blown up, but somehow it gets out of the way Oother bomb goes off And it's behind them So That command It saved everyone in that humbee Um Tim didn't know it at the time because he heard his commander clearly yell out a command. So there's just smoke and blood and dust everywhere He jumps out And The gunner has catastrophic injuries the blast went right through his legs because he was standing out the roof Tim immediately goes behind there and grabs Dean's the same He's hanging about like, a Proably like a safety rope or some kind of strap so he doesn't fall out of the humbee because they're going fast. He's literally hanging like dangling from it. So Tim cuts him free U And you know, just kind of thinks like I don't know if he's liive or not, like It is just massive. goosh makes his way around to where Josh is. There is an interpreter, a local interpreter sitting right behind Josh. who's also wounded like he took a brunt of the blast Josh is sitting up. He think Tim thinks Josh is fine. He just He just yelled out of command. No He's not blown out of the vehicle. It's not gruesome. And he looks at him and a medic is already there from behind the convoy And's already like he's gone H Tim said he looked like he was sleeping. But he was also confused because he's like I just heard him talk. No, yeah. L what's going on right now So A lot of chaos ensues at that point, obviously. major attack on a convoy And so This is some years later I solve the The autopsy report from Dover which is the National Morgue, where every soldier goes through And I didn't actually choose to see it There was an envelope sitting in my parents' house. I didn't know what it was. in Azat the photos or just a report? Yeah. everything. Tuma, man. So we talk about trauma. Yeah Yeah, and this happened before my counseling so U I only bring that up because The size of this blast felt, you know, the earth shook two miles away The Humve took like all the impact and it's visible, you know. You see pictures of the hum? The violence, yes, I've seen pictures of that And Josh died because a piece of shrapnel probably You know, six inches wet right into his side. So he has a flack vest, like a vest on, bulletproof vest. But in those days they didn't have any protection on the side. It was just like front and back. Hopefully they make them better now So because there was no door, like it literally went right. Like he was he was the first he took he took the The majority of that blast and It went right through him. And only say that Because there's no way he spoke words after that 's just not possible Yeah There's nothing there. There's no breath, There's no lungs There's probably not a heart They said it was in an instant. In the blink of an eye, he was gone. Yeah And Tim, I was with Tim a few years ago and I heard this firsthand the whole story And He's like, they told me that there's no way he said that, but it was your brother's voice It was the right command. He did everything right. He called me by name He identified the threat Even though they had never seen one, he knew, it's an ID And the command was to keep moving forward And I don't It's not physically possible that that happened But everybody heard it that was there And it was his voice. And I just Everyone survived, but your brother? W D make it? The interpreter did not survive For the gun the other three guys made it Yeah Yeah, the gunner had a They reattached his legs in Germany And I ran a five K with him. That' Jesus Unbelievable. Unreal. Has a beautiful family She's retired now U wow. So I don't know, justust theologically, it's like God did God breathe in him that he could utter those words I don't know, but I think there was something supernatural taking place in that moment. We didn't know any of this for a couple years And to know that his last words like we're Keep moving forward That kind of rocks you as well, you know? 'causeuse there's in grief, there's so many things that just don't move forward You know, like it's devastating. And you know, it changes everything. There's like a hinge. There's like before beforefore that happened and after And Um, it's like your brother's telling you what to do. Ryan then what to do Well What's that do for your faith? My unlark, what is it I mean, obviously like you have this Its traumatic you lose your brother wrestling with that and the sovereignty of God and is probablybably a really tough and hard thing to do anyway. But then you have this whole other really supernatural kind of crazy event that happens when you hear the story again. and what Do it what does that do? does How do you process that? Do Does it make it easier? Does it Like what kind of insights do you pull about the nature of God from that? as you think through it? Yeah Man, so much. Yeah, I can imagine. I mean it informed so much because I think sometimes we go through life thinking And I know I did in the midst of grief and processing it that God Was he not there? Right? Did he not hear me every morning cry out to him to protect my brother? My dad's cries, my mom's like There was probably no other soldier more covered in prayer than Josh, you know? And so you do ask those questions, like what happened that morning? Where were you, right? And that story reminds me that he was there Like he's real. Yeah Um I don't understand it likeike why it happened the way it did, you know? Like I've gone through The anger of like It ruined my engagement. Yeah. My mom's birthday has never been the same obviously. Yeah. We're trying to celebrate her and think about her birthday, but We all know it happened on that day, you know. Just a just a lot of things. but I think I've always had like a I think an appreciation and almost an obsession was like the theology of suffering and pain and That sounds weird. but what I mean by that is how people that have gone through just insurmountable grief and pain in their life. and how it strengthens their faith and how The Bible is full is threaded throughout. with this theology of suffering and pain and Um You know, the gospel's the only The only answer to that and what I mean is like the gospel is the only thing where your weakness is not wasted. That's good. And I mean weakness, I mean in grief and loss in a whole lot of unanswered questions. Our weakness is not wasted. It's actually because of the cross is actually where God does the work It's like the roots And so and losing Josh and I mean, really being given that gift There's absolutely no guarantee that I would know his last words or that that I would know that story I just told you But I think it's a gift and There's another part of this I think I shared with you. Kind of reminds me of The movie signs when her last words were swing away You know, and it's like the hinge of the whole movie of how that that's gonna play in the future kindind of reminds me of that Puture science quota s such a I mean, it's a good. so it's like the blurious movie, but it's a story about faith. Yeah. It's the pastor loses his faith when his wife dies, you know and and her last words, you know, and she was I mean, and I think it's one of the best Christian movies ever made, you know, And then it's just because you don't know it's T commommandments with Charles Histon. But you don't know it's a Christian movie. Like you don't It's like you think it's an alien movie, you know Yep. But those last words are You know Exactly what you need to hear then then and then in the future of your brother telling you, you know, keep moving forward Mh. I mean, that applies every day, right? Yeah I mean I've had I' I've been in the midst of a kind of a wilderness season the last two years of my life and those truths that I've learned and I've developed and the seeds that God has grown through that loss and even those words I really like that daily sustenance and time with him and just notot understanding things, but just putting my faith and trust that There's something else going on, you know, there's something bigger at play here And There's a part of this that the very few people know Um that was kind of another, I think, a bookend Two What happened and It was The night after Josh was killed We were back here in Nashville They're all crammed in this apartment. And Could sleep. I don't want to keep anybody else awake or for them to know So I went into the closet and I shut the door And it was just kind of one, you know, like when scripture says like the groans that are too deep to understand. that's what I was feeling. U I didn't know if you know, like it wasn't I was just crying or I was emotional It was like a groaning, a longing and a deep sadness And middle of the night I'm not asleep. But I get The only vision I've ever had in my life happens in that closet and All of a sudden, I'm in Iraq And I'm at I'm where it happened And God shows me this vision of his hand coming down out of the clouds and like literally just Snatching up Josh And I hear him say I've got him And then there's kind of a There's kind of a freeze frame at that point, and it kind of turns into an oil painting in my mind. And that's the way I've always seen it of this hand in the sky of Iraq Um with this soldier, who's my brother And I also knew in that moment that it was instantaneous Like it literally was like the moment almost before anyone realized there was an explosion He had him in his hand And you know, that doesn't take away sadness or longing or missing your brother and all the things that come after But That was like this supernatural otherwly experience that I'd never had before since. Were you trusting that experience or were you kind of No,ew I knew deeply that it was real and still do. I've not shared that with anybody but a couple people And A few years ago We were on a trip and the driver Tim, was with us. It was the first time I would meet him Another soldier of my brotherers had kind of orchestrated this moment. and Tim shares the story. He took he probably took two hours to tell a story that's, you know, fifty seconds long because he's gone through the work and has pro reprocessed and like had to do those things. And He shows me the humvee that they were in. And he says, hey, actually, I have I can show you, I know on the map exactly where it happened And I was like, I want to see it He zooms in on his phone on Google Maps And he's like right there So I can see the road I can see what's behind it and Quietly My mind is completely blown 'cause the only part of that vision that didn't make sense to me In the closet? Yeah wasas that it didn't look like I thought Iraq looked like I thought it was just this desolate brown desert, desert, with nothing and some highway going through it that Josh was driving on And it wasn't, it was green It was like a ditch with the reeds were six, eight feet tall growing out of this ditch. The humvee wasn't even painted likeike Desert Tan It was green And so in that moment in Kansas City three years ago I kind of have that final assurance that like, oh, I've been there. And that's exactly what I thought when Tim showed me. the satellite image. I was like, Ohh, I've been there. But I questioned it because I didn't think That's it can't be what it looks like. Maybe I I just went somewhere that seemed that was like representative of the place. But in that moment I knew I'd been there It's wild. Yeah So you're in the closet saying a scene in your mind of an Iraq. You know it's your brother, but you don't All the setting is off. feeleels off for the moment feels off. Yeah. You're like, I don't get it. Like I'm thinking I had this, you know, desert storm kind of image in my mind. and then how many years went by until you connect to the dots that it was It was nineteen years later. So he shows you on Google Maps In instant and you're like, that's the same vision I had That's crazy. I' never seen it before. That's crazy. N. Yeah, 'use I'm sure everyone listening this was thinking, that's the vision I got It's like kind of like a like a freeway in Nevada Yeah. Yeah. That's right. just like it's flat. you can see the hills in the distance, but it's just There's nothing on either side for miles. That's right. That's what I was envisioning when you were talking about that. And then you see this vision in the closet and it's like ere is this green stuff growing and Yeah what does that do for you? I mean, obviously it's like you were taken there the next day. I mean, I think that It's been so foundational to just my faith of You know, like Walking you know, walking with friends who have You know lost their faith or perhaps never never had a solid faith and, you know, and question even the existence of God and is He good? And you know, the big questions that have always been And that to me is like man I know he's real Like nobody could talk me out of that. Nobody could convince me that there is no God or if there is a God or there is a force then he's not personal and he's not involved or you know, like all of the arguments is like No, I like I've I've experienced it and I've experienced it in like the the deepest darkest valley of my life, you know, like That's extremely personal. Yes That's about as personal as it could get, you know, I think that Yeah We doubt that. We doubt that God cares about the details. I was going to ask you, I mean, there's people listening that I know out there going through trauma, like heavy trauma and loss. how do you How do you resist or work through likeike feeling like you're at enity with God, like feeling like like youre blaming God for Not hearing your prayers to protect your brother or taking him. I mean, how do you process? L a lot of people, I know a lot of people who have super traumatic things that I've met in my life decide to blame God and walk away. Yeah L can you speak to that for a second? Be of course, you have the supernatural experience where you get a vision and by the kindness of God, right? that you have that. but There are countless people that have lose somebody close to them and blame God for it and then and that's it. That's their final That's the final straw. Yeah. ye. And I think in in those moments in those momoments of just disappointment and anger. One of the things is like a good southern Baptist kid A preachers kid. Yeah. P. that I had to learn and kind of work out of me and this process was not really being open and honest with God, as if that was possible But actually like airing it out and talking to him and going to him, you know. And Um beinging okay with those moments of like not having answers whichich is really hard for me. I like to have the answer. like this is what happened or this is This is how I respond to this question or do this thing. and the humility and just the kind of the brokenness of like, I don't I don't have the answer for this. but knowing that Man, God sees and hears and he is so personal in those moments You know, like I think about CS. Lewis and the problem of pain. He says, I'm probably going to butcher this, but the gist of this is U In our pleasures, God whispers in our conscious conscience, he speaks But in our pain, he shouts It is his megaphone to rouse a deaf world. So in your pain, in your trauma in your suffering God is more evident even shouting. And I mean, I've experienced that recently way beyond the death of my brother You know? H Our mom now has been battling stage four metastatic cancer And Facing death of a parent loss How do I model that for my own children You know But man, the beauty of it is that you know, our weakness, our pain, our tears is never wasted And it doesn't make sense, but maybe stopping and listening And just being raw. and honest before God knowing He can handle it. He can handle it. now Yeah. What about creativity? from your standpoint of I mean you're a songwriter, an artist and you don't write songs for eight years? Yeah How is that such traumatic experience, but also this really revelatory experience where God is showing up, how hass that impacted your creativity or craft as far as, you know, we talked pre roll and bleaches. Yeah working on new stuff and your plac to playing shows for what it your thirtieth anniversary? Yeahight. But that what has that done to the? I mean you are a creative person. You've known since you were ten that you wanted to play in a band. We talked about the beginning stripe for all these things. Yeah. Yeah How has that impacted the way that you create Yeah, I mean, it definitely does because creativity is not just like what I did in the band. like ve I've seen that as I've gotten older in my career and, you know, creating businesses and u working in the nonprofit space. it just takes different forms, right? And Um When I lost that Unknowingly. The timing was just perfect. We ended up like breaking up soon after that. It wasn't because of what happened to my brother and I, but I mean, that certainly was a contributing factor We were tired and ready to be home and figure out what was after that. And so like it was like this convenient time where I like slipped through and like nobody's looking at me going Are you writing anything? Like What's going on? We got a record. We' trying to make a record. Yeah. So like that was weird, but, you know, even now, you know, creatively I think I'm just like coming out of that I just want to Stewward it in a way. Yeah. that is Meaningful. You know, like I don't think I put a lot of thought to like probably what I was writing or That sounds That sounds bad. I mean, I put a lot of thought to it, but like not in the spiritual sense of like Okay, what's coming out of me? Like what am I going create? What am I going make? What's my? Um, You know, what's my legacy? Like what's my what am I going to leave the world with? you know? And so I think prior to losing Josh, like that wasn't really what I was thinking about. We were just trying to Make it. Well, I think some of the best songs are written out of like that. just that pain of something. Oh man, yeah. Just the best. There's no other outlet than just put it on the put it all on a song and And I think people can connect to it. And I think instantly people can tell if it's real or fake. If it's a real story, this is birth out is something that happened to this writer versus he's trying to write a song about someone who's sad versus, no, I'm the guy who's sad. I'm the person who went through this experience. Its like the whole email thing. It's being rejected by the ladies too We got a whole was When you're nineteen, that was the hardest thing you've been through. Yeah is like a breakup with a girl and I You really didn't have anything that was difficult. And I think You know, any guy who's been in a band, a breakup of a band feels like a death It feels like you devoted your entire life to this thing You've spent more time with each other than most marriages You know, you're with each other all day long. you're fighting through the hardest things you've ever been through. you're in the middle, breaking down in the middle, getting robbed, getting, you know, all these things happen to you and then it just doesn't work. Yeah. And that is that is a hard. Yeah, there's grief in that for sure. And so many band dudes are messed up. And your part of your story was like being a minist Kind of a chaplain road chaplain to a lot of band guys because you Yeah, you turned your grief into more than just you know, a sermon on Sunday, you were actually like trying to help other band members work through it. And then to come full circle, I know a little bit about your story. Chris Bumgardner and Hill You ended up there too Yeah which is where we were connected at his birthday and he was on the show. I didn't Okay. So he ended up listening to a blurry that episode, right? Yeah Yeah. Chris Chris's episode. Yeah So that that's yeah, that's truly the full circle moment. I don't know if you want to leave that into this episode, but I mean I'm happy to you. Okay like It's kind of cool how like the podcast goes from just being storied to like real life, like we're all. Wait, you listened to this episode, then you went to the hill, you had experienceced it. Yeah. And we were there too. Yeah, we've been there. It Wild. So wild And like like I couldn't comprehend that, you know? But like even thinking about Just the goodness of God and just like how personal God is. Yeah. like Its it's through that whole story. Like my wife was just telling me over and over for like a week You gott listen to this blurry episode And she's like explaining it and I'm just like, okay And I'm thinking like What does this guy's story have to do with me? He's like a biotech you, guy who lost his job, but like she knew like the season that we've been in and she's like, I just think you could You're gonna relate to a lot of what this guy's talking about, It's kind of blowing my mind So I finally listened to it after, you know, it was definitely a few days of her like Have you started it yet? Like what's going on? So goodood wife Yeah. And I finally listened to it. And man, it was just How many podcasts have I listened to? but this one was just different And at the end of it, I was like, I feel like I didn't even talk to that guy I wish I could have coffee with him. How'd you find Chris This is weird too. D you walcome to cigar sh? 'cause that's basically where you find Bom Garner, any given. Yeah. I'm I mean, that's kind of related. Yeah. The episode ends, and I'm like I don't know why, but like this is the only podcast I've listened to it. I'm like, I I want to sit down with this guy. I want to talk to him Knowing he's in Franklin, like, well, that's convenient. I don't have to fly anywhere to go meet this guy It ends and I get like an alert on my phone And it's from a signal group I'm in It's called Puffs and Pores. Oh yeah. know that one? I'm not haven't invited to the signal chat yet, but But I'm in it. I've been there two times I barely I barely stap in that one? He's not. Unfortunately not. Okay. He's not.'alere's a signal with Scutt.'s a whole st for another time. Anyway, singer of Creed for all those young kids out there. This signal alert comes up and I probably hadn't checked It's the only group I'm in on signignal. and it had probably been two weeks since I checked it And for some reason I just click through. And it's literally Chris who I had not met. I'd only been to a couple like gatherings I forget not no. I always forget it's the last You know, day of the last week of the month and I never rememberered to go hide out. S. Yeah. So he's in there like posting the link to the episode. he had done it like a week before. And I'm like, wait That guy' in this group and like We've already shared like all of our info And so I was like, I literally have his phone number And this all happens like five minutes within five minutes of me finishing the episode, listening to it. Weird So I texted him. And you guys know Chris. Of course he met with me because I know that now. That's what he does. But I'm thinking this guy's this is probably random. He's probably getting hit up by A ton of people that have heard this episode. And I mean, within days, we were sitting down and having coffee together And From thatdy invited me to the hill My wife and I go to that That's a whole thing That's a whole other thing. Yeah So And now here we are. And then I see you guys at Chris's birthday party A few months ago, I guess. Yeah. Nate and I reconnect after Probably decades. After that first show I had seen was? How was that first show? This we have a non amazing nonpartan. They were good. That was Sherwood. Yeah. they were good. I mean, we were three piece. I don't even think we were called Sherwood yet. was still summer snow. No, that was freshman year of high school. I told Luke my first band name You'll never Well you just got to sing to keep going, you? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I know We didn'trow enough emo lines throughout this episode, but ye. I mean, your story is so so raw and real. I appreciate that I think sometimes I think the thing that Chris's episode was was just yeah. it's just a raw heart bleeding on the, you know, this is what happened to me. And I think it's easy in the podcasting space to kind of be a little inauthentic or shock rock or whatever and And he made me cry in that episode particularly in U. it it It felll Like he wanted to turn the story back ono us, like tell your story, tell your story. and he's such a genuine guy to do that instead of talking about himself the whole time. He was This is your story too guys. and I think we've been in the situation where we're trying to get something out of somebody else mostost of the time And it changes our it's changed our lives doing it, but You know, I think that Chris Lee left that impression on a lot of people. People are emailing us. I want to guy. I want who is this guy Yeah I to go to the hill. Yeah.'s not that easy actually J because he cares, you know, he's a real he's a real one And everythingthing's fake these days. so that pain is something raw and real that people can connect to and then go full circle, I think that like if we're pulling Stings Beline, like talking to Chris and then here in his story and then here in your story Is this Potent reminder The Godd is so Very, very intntimate involved in our lives and so very, very close even when The world feels upside down, tragic, or it's cving in on you. God is there. Like whether it's with Chris, it's You know, COVID patent one and then and having this stillill ongoing, really miraculous conversation God or you having this catastrophic moment where as I said before, I think it's pretty remarkable. A lot of people turn God and blame him for that Right? And and that's I understand that actually. I mean, you don't really just grasping to try to figure out what is happening and how can this happen and But the reminder then got in a closet in Nashville, you have this vision that you can confirm nineteen years later And guys said I have him You know, I I'm blown away as we discuss these two things, just being reminded of how God very much cares about the minutia, like the very, very smallest things, and that our heaviest and most traumatic things are notot too much for him Yeah, you know, I That's right Can I I don't think anyone wants to walk through somethingomet so traumatic But When you do be reminded that God cares about the details and the small things and he's there. I mean that's rememarkable, I think. And it's a revelation, I think that anyone listening. It's a good reminder, you know that all the things that we in our lives that we deal with are also not too big, not too far, not too traumatic. It's kind of a weird moment for me. I think my dad's calling me to tell me my grandma just passed away. So That's why the phone is ringing. Oh bom. Oh ye I should lived a good one though Yeah, It's funny how this podcast of terms like Yeah man. Oh we love you, dude. I u Th know we've walked with you behind, I have behind The microphone with all the stuff that's going on with your grandmom And I lost my grandmother Reentallyly too, so I understand the pain and I This Italing, I mean, it's Funny fununny not in aaha way how things work out sometimes. Yeah, yeah. ye details. Yeah And she she is a special woman, you know, like one hundred and three lived a good life, but It's funny how what happens when in the middle of recording that. Yeah. I think that we've always tried to just I mean, ever since starting this show, we've been going through crazy personal stuff and trying to keep the show going like through You my marriage kind of fell apart right in the beginning and blurry. There was like a couple weeks of like, you know man, I don't know if I can keep doing this. like Yeah, it's hard to like talk about giants and pig foot and stuff when your heart's broken and you're just like and your kids are asking questions but So my grandma, like I got to go home and it's a good story. It's just It's kind of like Itesn't any easier? Well, it's just funny how God kind of like ties it all together. you know, like of course it would be probably like right about now and I'm talking about vulnerability that I have to You know, know that something happened, but Dude, I just appreciate you sharing your story. It's not about me, it's just To me it's funny how we're talking about Chris and, you know, the Hill and then you're there. Yeah. Yeah. L's life's weird. It's like, u You get blown apart and then you have to like put it all back together. I think what you're describing is like people just don't want to put it back together. They don't want to go like, they want to stay bitter, they want to stay hurt, they want to stay in the pain And they're like, screw it, screw God, screw this story. I't I just want to stay hurt and wounded forever. And I think you're Even nineteen years later, kind of putting it all back together. And sometimes twenty years, thirty years, however long it takes, God's patient to like help us Don't give up He's not mad that we wasted that time because that time's important and some people it's like sometometimes it's sometes it's the wilderness. Yeah. Yeah. But Sorry to She, u yeah L lifeife's a wild ride and What's your story now where obviously you've had your own moment of coming out of you know, going into the hill and maybe feeling like a renewed cononnection to God Yeah, certainly. What u Where are you at right now? and what's what's the obbviously you're making another record. Yeah what's cooking? Yeah. Man, I it's been u I mean, the hills such a big part of that and part of that was like trying to because of things that have happened in the last couple years, you know, with like business partners and such U you do I just have a tendency to just like pull back of like, o man, can I trust anybody? H Am I crazy? Should I try to do this? Like is this stupid Am I too old for this? And I don't mean music. I just mean like business in general. How do you how do I make my way? And that was, u So yeah, like I've got kind of this newfound freedom and creativity over the last few months too Um, you know hopefully create some things that matter and ill very heavily involved in the music industry and nonprofit work One of my outlets is something called Dark Horse Elite, and that that was started by one of my brother's soldiers Patrick Benson and He's the one that hosted us and like made all that happen a few years ago with Tim, the driver. But he started Dark Horse ellite specifically to help spepecial Operations veterans Um, there is a A lot of those guys are retiring right now And so a lot of them are just now Daling with trauma that's fifteen, twenty years old, because they've been spun up for decades u in deployments one after the other and he does it holistically through equine therapy. Horses are a big part of it. hence the Dark horse but also just redemptive emotional, physical, like it's a full body, full mind, full spirit type of program for them And so I'm helping him with some development stuff, fundraising, and also it kind of the spiritual chaplaincy component of what these guys are facing. And for me, that's just it's a way to feel close to my brother. and kind of answer that question of like, what would he do right now? Yeah. What would he care about? you know? And so I love being like anyime I can spend time with a veteran, Horseback is even better U I'm all I'm all in. I'm game I don't think we do this very often, but I kind of see you being you know, a force for that, putting people back together, helping people put themselves back together and standing in the gap between the pain and what they've experienced and I don't know, Id see you doing that in the future. You know I don't normally feel like someone's supposed to do this, but that's how I feel for you. You're supposed to do that So Thanks, man. Yeah, see that. There's a lot of people a lot of men in particular really suck at expressing and getting and opening up and just bottle it up and it destroys them. So ye. there's certain guys though like Chris who can get you to kind of Open up and talk and if you have that gift, it's reallyre needed, especially for vets. yeah I know we've had Zach from Veteran with the S on a few times and that's a big part of his heart too. So shout out to Zach. Maybe you guys can work together, partner and talk but I don't know if you know him. I don't know him. Okay. I know who he is. Okay. yeah. He's pal. Yeah He's a good buddy. Yeah. So it's awesome. And Bleach is gonna play? Yeah, there's tour dates right now. What can if people find that? Theyish a record last week. When does that come out I don't know. Okay. Yeah I have one last question. Did you ever do anything with the song that you wrote the first song