The Sudarium and Burial Traditions

You know we've heard the stories, Lu Glowing eyes in the forest. sureure You know, a portal opening up at the gas station, fine. Paying three hundred dollars for a sweater? No, we don't do that. No, we don't do that. And we don't wear sweaters in the summer, either. But what do you wearing in the summer? I think summer always changes how we get dressed and the things we gotta wear. and you gotta refresh that wardrobe. And that's why we keep coming back to Quinns. They focus on high quality essentials that feel and look amazing, breathable linen, soft organic cotton, well made basics without the luxury markup. And right now, Quinns has got a full summer line, European linen pants and shirts startart at just thirty four dollars. That's right. They've got all kinds of things. Mongolian, cashmere, washable silk, linen, leather bags, bedding, all the good stuff without the luxury markup. 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So this means the body emanated out. What of power? thirty four billion watts, but it doesn't burn it. Where I want to help modern Christians is this, It is important to have evidence. Yeah. It is important to have an evidence based belief. That's good, man. When I was on Sean Ryan, my favorite question asked, he's like, I thought it was just about faith. Like why do we need proof Yeah. And I remind people, well, the early disciples needed proof. There's one hundred thirty eight thousand words in the Greek New Testament. and not a shred of those words would have been written had they not had many infallible proofs. That's Acts one three that Jesus was seen The history of our earth is so different from what we can imagine joy. The Smithsonian and if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere was to go get it. I'm gonna assume at least one person is right because if one person's riding bus parag, it all goes back to the phone cherm. And the problem with the modern day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Herman event Y's blurry And this guy defects from the kingdom That's a big deal Well, we're excited. Wlcome back to Blurry Creatures, Dr. Jeremiah John is in the house. I'm gonna re the back of your book. You have new books out and We're going to talk about the blurriest creature, but maybe the brightest creature. and then we're gonna to get into that. But thank you for coming into our basement. I'm going to read this. You're an elected member of the preeminent New Testament scholarly guuild. SNTS, I'm not going to read that because I'm a butcher it and serves internationally as a president of Christian Thinker Society. Jeremiah loves the local church and serves as a pastor apologetics and cultural engagement pressed in wood Baptist Church. He's auth of several books including Proof of the Body and the peace of God Bible. This is your new book Jesus discoveries and we're going to talk all about there's a lot of skeptics Obviously, maybe not as many in our camp because maybe we over believe in the blurry verse but Jesus, you know, it's not a legend. And I think that we have come to have a full understanding. just when you introduce all the other characters in the biblical story, non human characters, you start to believe in Jesus in a new way. So we're excited to go down the rabbit hole today with you. If you are skeptical about Jesus, you probably won't be after this episode. Thank you for coming on. Thank you for flying here. doctor. I' theer part. callall me, Jeremiah. This is a learned doctor. to prove if he's a doctor. Listen, you forgot the most important part of my bio I am the overstressed father of tririplea boys who are nine so I've not slept in nine yearss. We both got cou a couple kids ourselves. So someone' on the younger boys. another one here So My kids go screensaver mode if I'm not interesting in two minutes or less, so I've perfected I've perfected how to answer these questions I love minutes or less. And they get weird here. I love it Thank you for being willing to come on how you ended up on our show because I think a lot of people pass pass. thoseose guys are a little strange and weird. But what are your thoughts on Bigfoot? You know the show? That's what we start That's where we start? Well, Id take all eyewitness accounts seriously. How can you not? I mean, that's I have an inclination. As a historian, eyewitness testimony is huge for me. Yeah. And one thing that I've not personally had a bigfoot encounter. But I actually sent out an email to our societies. peopleeople can go on my emailist Christianthinkers. com and We have a very active society. and I said, I need a real deal bigigfoot story. So I need to blow these guys' minds with a bigigfoot story. So can I read you what was sent to me? love I read it last night. I love your crowdsourcing. I got a bigot question. It's like, I want to be ready. prepped Yeah. And this gentleman, Josh writes back I just noticed an email you were asking about a Bigfoot story. I'm sure there are many more engaging stories. While my father and I were assisting the underground church in China, my dad ended up in Tibet. on a bus, and he was asked by a local to come visit the village. The village was a couple days walk from the last supply town where public transportation ended Through the meeting, a friendship emerged and my dad took my sister on subsequent trips to his village over the years. Yeah, we were Americans, so we did have to sneak around the border to get into China because of the American visa issue I had read of reports earlier about bigigfoot sightings in Tibet. And so when we were out in the mountains hanging out with the locals, I thought it would be awesome to ask them directly since that they were so disconnected from the outside world. Their villagers literally looked like they were their villages literally looked like they were from a thousand years ago Anyway, we had a monk that had been with the Dali Lllama and had gotten saved and he was our translator. Check this out Josh continues. I asked him to ask the locals if they had any experiences with Bigfoot. I forgot what they call it, but I describeed Bigfoot and they clearly understood. Immediately, they excitedly related stories that yes, they did have sightings and encounters They said how it liked alcohol, the Bfoot there at which Tibetans always seem to have their homemade milky white alcohol on hand, and related a story where around a fire one evening on a trail, a Bigfoot attacked the group and used one of their knives and killed a man There are other stories I don't remember. They seem to think that Bigfoot was connected to evil. This was back in the early two thousands, and I was just amazed because these people would have no bias on the idea of Bigfoot. They thought America was just over the mountains a little ways away. That's wild. So we have a bigfoot sighting. He likes Tibetan alcohol and he kills people. What knives Sometimes they get mad when you steal their secret stash. So he, you know, sixty years of sightings. I take I take that into account, but here's my big question for you guys. Where's the body How? Well You're going to tell us more about that today. I'm guessing Yes. I mean, that's that's always been this sort sort of skeptical answer whereere's the body? whereere are the bones? you know, all these questions that we've tried to answer over the years. There's a few answers to that, too. I love it. They' interesting. I think like We've had a At least one episode that we did with a gentleman that shot a Bigfoot and was really reluctant to come on. said more or less that he had a visit shortly after from The men in black The Men in black essentially it said that we know what happened. We know where it happened. We know where it happened, etera. And he took him they took him to the location. They thought that he statched the body in the wood somewhere and they were trying to figure out That was sort of what my After he told the story, I was like, they were trying to figure out if he had the body. So he shot it and it fell off the side of the mountain He doesn't know what happened to it. But there's a much more materialistic and naturalistic idea. If there really is a small population, we've had it postulated before that like if you've ever seen like a time lapse of a deer carcass disappearing in a forest If almost everything is gone You know, it's very So there's that idea too. And like forty days too. pererhaps Th those things just being so remote and so I guess you' scarce that you could have it disappearing. But there's also all the weird stuff. right you talk about the weird stuff and why it matters, there's enough crazy stories of foot Dmaterializing our or Tracking a big foot and having the track. dies in a different dimension. Yeah It does Without a doubt. He's like quantum computer. his body. The stories are that they're pretty intelligent. they can evade all kinds of detection. They know not to be seen somehow. They know like to avoid trail cams. I think they can sense those things too. So they would probably bury their dead or they would go to remote places or they go down in caves and they just go places where you just won't find them. so I think they're smart enough to kind of. do whatever it is to avoid detection. Exactly. Have you guys covered any angelic encounters? Yeah Yeah A lot of near death experiences and a lot of I know I experienceced an angel. You're gonna tell a story before we get into, let's do it. Yeah. I was in Trenton, New Jersey in a car accident And I was in seventh grade And we were trying to get back to the Big boy restaurant. Remember the Big boy.igh. And a car hit us head on. No way. My dad was driving and I look up at him as a seventh grader and he's like this I mean, it looks like he's dead. I can't get the door open. and all of a sudden this African American man just pulls the door off the car. pulls me out helpels me get my dad out And then I look around and he is gone. Like rips the door off the car. Yeah. and he is gone. Wow. the angel beed. It could have been a of ced, But I believe I entertained an angel un'aware I've always thought that was an angel. Wow Yeah, we interviewed a guy that was a great story. Remember that. rememember that story when this guy was driving home and his dad was drunk And says, Dad was swerving inlaine and these golden hands came out and just grabbed the wheel and drive the car and We hear that all the bizarre stories Well, the scripture even says that. We entertain angels unaware.ware often. Although they were very aware of the angels in Sodom. Yes They were. The que Sodomites were. Yeah, I don't think they're too much different than us. I think that's sort of our understanding over the years of You know, there's stories of angels interacting with humans. and again, people get skeptical of how does those things go together? We think angels are spirits or something else and there's no physicality to them. And I'm like, well, what's a resting state of an angel? Right What's the resting state of Jesus? And I obviously here we talk about the physical body of Christ today and all the evidence that surrounds that Um That's professional of a segue as I can do that. No I've got one too, but Jeremy, like I think if people aren't familiar, I'd be surprised because you kind you're kind of having a cultural moment. You have the number one book. Yeah. We were talking about this for Number one. The Jesus Discoveries is New York Times' number one book. Of course, we were on Sean Ryan here in town for Easter Episode of Million Views. You've done Pierce Morgan, Daily Wire, Michael Knowles You went to Davos for the World Economic Forum And now you've really stied it up. You' gone on blurry creatures. You I mean, this is the pentacle. I'm sorry, it goes downhill from here. but now this is peak, right? But an academic you get invited to Davos to talk to the World Economic Forum. and That's wild. That's wild. And you're at evidence, guys. So it's really good. this line of thinking for us is like you're asking, what's the evidence? What do you think about? Bakefoot, Where's the body Um And you're going to leave people without any skeptical Absolutely today. Well, and Tucker too. I mean, Tucker is the one who kicked it all off. Tucker, ye. So yeah Sometimes you're walking through the woods, Luke. Look for all things blurry. You look down and you say Whoa, Bigfoot's getting a lot of fiber. He's eating tree roots and stumps and grass. He doesn't need any help, but the rest of us do. It's not new, it's not trendy, but it might be the most important and most overlooked parts of your health nearly ninety five percent of people are not getting enough fibernate. And that's why Momentus launch Fiber pllus, a triple action formula combines soluble insoluble fiber with prebiotic resistant starch to support that gut health and digestion. It helps your body absorb nutrients better, stabilizes blood sugar and improves recovery. Momentus took a different approach with fiber pllus, combining three different types of fiber, helping you close that major gap in modern nutrition And think about it this way, if your gut's functioning better. 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That's liveementus. com promo code blurry for up to thirty five percent off liveMentus. com promo code blurry So you have a bunch of you have a bunch of things you brought with us. We're going to do show and tell people where we start? People have got a Well the first place I want to start is I understand how real that experience was. I believe without a doubt, I experienced an angel. So I don't discount these testimonies of people that see things, see Bigfoot, if he's interdimensional I don't discount that. As a historian and I work with evidence and eyewitness testimony, and I want to get as close to the event as possible. so And I also know that eyewitness testimony and half the eyewitnesses think that the Titanic sunk in one piece and the other half believe that it broke apart. to varying views of people that were actually there nineteen twelve. So the'sappinting part, Jerem, I was there was probably room for Jack. Yeah to get on the life. I mean exactly. I mean Yeah What about conspiracy theory? S we're hybrow here. I know. I love that. Deep, deep Well you know, I know your North star is Heiser and I mean, he says one experience of truth can break a whole paradigm and evidence. And so That's what I've experienced. I've experienced the evidence for Jesus Christ and it has transformed my life. And so my kiddos who are five, two teenagers, three, nine year olds, we're at dinner. And they're like, Dad, all my friends on TikTok and Snap We cannot appeal to the Bible to tell them why Jesus is who He says He is If he's really who he says he is, there should be archaeological fallout all over the Mediterranean world. And they say, Dad, Write a book And let us know everything we can know about Jesus outside the Bible. And I looked at my son Abel. I was like, hold my diet Cke. So I wrote that book it took sixteen years of research. but I wrote it in a month. Yeah, that's right. Don't open Don't That's what nineteen eighty six. Speaking of Ring. we have a few here as well. I have some Luther beer from Martin Luther's brewery, by the way. It's like getting old But no, that's the answer. And so it's amazing. and I had to stop at ten. I mean, I just picked the coolest ten pieces of evidence. And so for those that are skeptical, I invite you to enjoy this program because I was too Yeah But I think we've always gone to context, or's so much context because the Bible gives you sort of these topics and keeps going People ask questions about, okay, what's Genesis six really mean? How do we understand these things? And I think that It wasn't written for skeptics. It was just sort of a linear story. and I think that we kind of bring our skepticism into everything as modern Western thinkers use I don't think ancients were as skeptical about these. No. They weren't. And one thing the reason your show is so wildly popular is you embrace the supernatural. And there is a part of modern Christianity that wants to put God in a box and not embrace the modern supernatural. When you think about the life of Jesus, we have eighty nine chapters in the gospels only for the infancy narratives Christmas Two thirds of the gospels is what the heck happened at a historical moment in time that first Easter weekend. So we have parts of and people don't realize this, we have parts of twenty six days of the life of Jesus in the gospels. I don't mean parts twenty four hours of twenty six days. I mean parts of twenty six days And Jesus is made famous first and foremost as an exorcist and a healer in the first century. And that's why I pull out the Jesus Cup, which is a great segue to it. I want to show you guys my first artifact. Can I do that? Yeah. Be I mean this is mind blowing And you know, we we know that we know that it one one interesting thing too Often they brought the demon possessed or what we'd call demonized individuals at night to Jesus. If you read the gospels And if you actually read them closely, there's an economy of words, but they would often bring them to Jesus at night And Jesus could exorcise demons and he wouldn't charge you for it. He could even exercise demons over a long distance. And so long before the Dominical tradition, his teaching, longong before the resurrection event itself, Jesus is a famous miracle worker. And remember, they come to him, they're like, Hey These guys are over here, they're casting out demons in your name. What do we do with them? And he said, Hey, let them do it. You know not foright.ight Let's do this. Yeah. And that's just another interesting evidential detail. It goes it says he went throughout Galilee, Samaria, healing, all who were sick and exorcising demons By the way, I see Contra up up, down down left right, BA select start. Select start Infinite life. we've just romanceced. We've just connected. You're just as distracted as I can. I just saw Cra over there. Forgive me. I'm in the middle of my sppiel and ye thank you guys. I' got aanic here too might be out of view. You can give it to. was superable There wasper If there's super technable over there, then you guys had Speaking about Jackson. Yeah hanging on off. Everyone knows about this It's sorry. So why and I we've heard it seems like there's an uptick of blurry things that happen at night, specifically like two A. Al also just like as you you're getting to, it's an interesting detail. Yeah. like it's just a detail that's like, okay, it happened at night. so it becomes that much more I mean, Christians believe the Bible, but it becomes that much more believable to be like, wow Why put this tiny detail in here if it's I think it's not real. I think there's a variety of cultural reasons for it. Remember also the rejection that those there was a health and wealth gospel in Judaism in the first century. If you were sick, if you had problems, God wasn't with you. I mean this was the temple establishment was rife with this teaching. A lot of it might be just they were embarrassed. They came at night as sick or hey, okay, My son's demonized. I don't want anyone to see me. And what's fascinating is twenty five percent. of the Roman Empire is sick dying or in need of immediate medical attention on any given day in the life of Jesus. And so Most of them were starving, They averaged about two meals a day. So when you have Jesus, this is why we have to do the CIA method of Bible study, context, interpretation, application. We got to get into the world of the text. We've got to see the text in first century with first century eyes, not western eyes. And so in Luke seven, it's one of my favorite passages, John the Baptist is having serious doubts. And why wouldn't he We know from Josephus that he's in the dungeons of Maciris, where he will lose his head from Antipass. and John the Baptist is like, manan, did I get this right Was he really the son of God? And how does Jesus respond? And this is why your program is so great Jesus does not shame John the Baptist. I mean, John the Baptist baptized him. And John's like, hey, did I really get it right And he responds and of course, echoing Elijah and Elisha, seven hundred twenty two of Luke blind C. The deaf here dead are neecros Gyro, literally the dead stand up He responds with evidence. So he doesn't shame him. he sharpens him. So that's another prayer I have for this broadcast right now is all of us go through times, even John the Baptist where we doubt, we wonder, is this really true And guess what There's a lot of evidence to back it up. Well, it's also like some of the story the disciples, which is I think is such the human story is the people that walked and talked his brother James, for example, these people Doubts, right? I mean, Jesus When he's sleeping in the boat, That's what I think about. Yeah. is like, why are you waking me up? You guys just don't believe that I'm him who I am. And they lived and ate and joked and hung out, walked around with them And his family thought he was nuts. Yeah. He struggled with that. I mean, you're getting ahead of me with James No but I got to show you this. Okay. I got to show you this.olutely. Nothing like this has ever happened. I published this book that now thank God is a number one New York Times bestseller, but in the first time in my scholarly career that global headlines were covering a section of my book And this is a cup that was taken out of the waters of Alexandria by Frank Gotio. And I have permission from him to use these photographs. What's cool about my book, there's pictures throughout it. so parents can read it with their kiddos. So You can see it almost looks like a teacup. One of the handles has been broken off And this is a picture De Christu on the back. That's a variant form of Christ, whole, Gistace in Greek. Th Jesus, the Echanter. Isn't that interesting? Or through Jesus the magicians. And this was likely Pagan. we don't know for sure, but likely talking to the archaeologists, they're poking fun at Jesus as a healer. and yet we have all of these different artifacts, including this one. And by the way, this is the earliest writing that we have with the name of Christ on it. This antidates the gospels. This is dated to the fifties guys eighty fifty. Wow. And so Jesus, what and it's in Alexandria, it tells us that in his lifetime In his own lifetime, his name is so famous that people are like, hey, if I insert this in a chant or if I insert this in a curse it works because there's power associated with this name. So it's not necessarily like likeike reverence for Jesus No. No, it's it's it's just what we see in actcts, you know, when Simon Magus, you know, they're trying they how much do I need to pay to do these miracles? You know, how do I get this gift you have? And people just know that his name had power. And again, the point here is Jesus is a famous exorcist and miracle worker. Jesus embraced the supernatural. and that's something that your show, I think is bringing back into vogue because we can get real boring Christianity if we're not believing in the Jesus of the Bible You know, you downloaded that app New Year, New M And now it's June, Luke. and you need to cancel that subscription because you didn't follow through with your New Year's resolution. So what do you do? Well, Rocket Money has been something we've talked about on the show a lot that has really revolutionized a lot of the ways you can manage your finances. And for us, it will findine subscriptions didn't know you had or didn't know you werere still paying for or had doubled up on something. We all reached a point where maybe have a moment of financial panic. and rocket money is the solution. Rocket money not only found subscriptions that I had doubles of or that I wasn't using anymore, and helped me cancel those, but also can renegotiate bills for you. That's one the things I always talk about. I loved about Rocket Money. It was able to lower my bill for my internet and for my cell phone Did it on my behalf and I'm saving more than a thousand dollars this year and savings I didn't know I could save if I hadn't used rocket money. That's right. Rocket money can help you. See where your money is actually going and which is helpful when your budget mysteriously disappears somewhere between coffee groceries and late night online purchases. Yeah, Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps you find and cancel unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps you lower your bills so you can grow your savings. They saved users over eight hundred eighty million in canceled subscriptions in the last year It'll help you set budgets, goals, personalized insights, regular reports And the average user who uses the financial goal with rocket money saved over seventy dollars on average in the first thirty days So check out Rocket Money, Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals Faster, try it for zero dollars at rocketmoney d. com slash blurry. That's rocketmoney d. com slash blurry. Rocketmoney dot com slash blurry Obviously there's this legend that's kind of spreading after the fact, right? And I think there's people that actually knew him, have a relationship with him, which is the ultimate You know, call the gospel. it's more than just knowing about something. It's having a relationship with the Son of God. So But this is you said Alexandria. Yeah yeah. So I mean He found it underwater in Alexandria. So're like eighty fif two thousand eight. Is this like the height of the empire? Well, I'm saying that's how far the message. And you have to understand in Judaism, we've seen Jewish magic books, Jewish incantation spells. It took Solomon's name around seven thousand to eight hundred years to be used. Solomon's name was the name that would be invoked by exorcists Um Wow. And it took eight hundred years for his name to climb to that pedestal of being the name that they would use. And this goes back to the sons of Scava in Acts nineteen Remember, they go in and they have phylactteries on. They're wearing essentially battle garments. phylacteries, they're wearing all their amulets that the demons are supposed to be afraid of. And that's where we get that evidential that unique detail in Acts nineteen that they went out of the room naked meaning their phylactteries had no power over the demon. And that's when the demon says Jesus, I know, Paul, I know, who are you? Yeah So they were trying to invoke his power without having that relationship. Yeah. And isn't it interesting that Jesus is made famous? And I feel like we miss this. We miss the fact that there's been more documented miracles in the last fifty years of the church than the previous three hundred combined God still works miracles today So Jesus' name is famous quickly. Yes. and it's not it doesn't take a long time for that. He'll feed you, He'll heal you, He won't charge you, and he knows you and he sees your needs. And he can heal long distance. and he can exercise demons long distance as well. But also we know that I remember as just talking about this, there's also these accounts in the gospels and of The Disciples going out and it doesn't work for them. Mark nine. Yeah. They're like, we can't do this And he's like, you have little faith. Where's your faith? Yeah And but you know what? my heart goes out to them at that point because It's one of the great questions that Jesus ased. Jesus asks over three hundred questions in the gospels And in Mark nine, that very passage, Jesus has just been transfigured. Some people believe, I think it was RT France who thought that his body may have still been glistening comoming down from the mountains And and the father is under such duress because of his son I have four sons. I've been under duress before And he looks at Jesus and he said, If you can do anything, will you do it And the great question Jesus asked in Mark nine twenty two to twenty four If I can If I can. Yeah All things are possible for those who believe. And he said, Lord, I believe. Hel my unbelief. And I know that's where a lot of people are at right now. Lord I belief, help my un belieief. guess what? That was enough fith for Jesus to. You know, and I want to go back just real quickly because like You know, we' talked about the book being number one and we have our first like piece of evidence here. We've talked on the show before about how There's more evidence outside the Bible for the existence of Jesus Christ and there is for Caesar Augustus. It' something like eight references for Caesar who everyone says that's the real person. off course, He ruled Rome, right And Jesus all these other You know documentations would be Josephist and historians, et cetera, right So it seems like there's a lot of evidence F fact this book goes number one. I mean, what And I want to get back to the evidence, but Doid that surprise you or and why do you think Why do you think people are so interested at this moment in time? Yeah Because people want truth and they want it to be a truth that changes their life and they're tired of the Christian fluff. There's been a lot of Christian fluff books, The touchy Fey Christian fluff And guess what? The Bible is really exciting. Jesus' life is freaking exciting And we need to do a better job. And we need to not present the boring version of Christianity anymore. We need to present the supernatural version that changed the world. I mean, you can't there is no Western civilization without the Jesus movement. I mean, Galatians three hundred and twenty eight changes the world. There's neither Jew nor Greeks, slave nor free, male nor female. We're all one in Christ Jesus. I mean that was seditious for Paul to write that Women were elevated in the early church. I met with the late Rodney Stark. By eighty eighty, fifty years after the resurrection, the church is two thirds female. The Christianity's closest competitor was a cult of Mithra. that was a male only cult. It was dominant in the Roman legions. And so why is it so popular versus just the blessing of God? Secondly, it's dedicated to my son, Abel. We experienced a physical healing with him. so I believe God honored that And also it's crisp. The problem with academics is we just want to drone on. and even when I talk about the shroud, less is more. So you in about two and a half hours of reading with your kids, you're going to know the top ten discoveries of Jesus It was a labor of love But I got permission and paid thousands of dollars to have all these photos throughout the book because it's so cool to actually see it, like I'm showing y' allall Yeah. So I mean, I think Obviously in the skepticism we talked about in the beginning of the show, I mean, disciples were skeptical. They're like looking at them Christianity We should be skeptical of this Yeah, shouldn't we? But I think that We kind of come hard wired as skeptical people. I think doing this, it's like there's certain topics we've and I was skeptical at first and then I kind of slowly came along to it. Christi are skeptical You said say there's a little over forty days documented in the Bible. The Bible doesn't help us in terms of our skepticism. You have to sort of read it You only sometimes get a little chunk Yeah I go why What do I think about that? Right? Why do you think the Bible things like that doesn't give us long detailed descriptions of things. It just sort of drops it. Because they knew that someday we would we would need to see something every nine seconds and our attention sps would be so ridiculously low. I mean, you think Josephus gives us an account that's twenty eight times longer than a single gospel And I think though the gospels say what they needed to say. They get the job done. And that's why brevity is a gift. You can give the gospel in two minutes. and you can share the evidence and that's why we've packaged the book this way where hey, let me appeal to the Shroud. Let me appeal to the James Oshuary. Let me appeal to coins, which I have tons of show and tell to show you guys. So let's do it. Just real quick, I like theitanic Mmm you know, sort of story that some people think a broken half and some people say Even eyewitness accounts, we still debate what we saw. Yeah, Was it one angel of the tomb or two? was? Well, I mean, we don't doubt what happened, but people saw what they think they saw. Yeah But I think you know, blessed is those who believe it didn't see. And I think that there's something where you have to have a relationship with God to then see, not with your physical eyes, but with the eyes of your heart. And I think that that is the difference is that A religious of the time knew all the facts. couldn't see Jesus in front of them. So I think that absolutely they wanted to tell himp. Yeah So it's interesting though too, where I want to help modern Christians as this. It is important to have evidence. It is important to have an evidence based belief. I mean, when I was on Sean Ryan, and my favorite question asked, he's like, I thought it was just about faith. Like why do we need proof? Yeah? And I remind people, well, the early disciples needed proof There's one hundred thirty eight thousand words in the Greek New Testament. and not a shred of those words would have been written had they not had many infallible proofs. That's Acts one three that Jesus was seen And that's why I love that John twenty se eight says he saw And he believed, E donon, this Greek word to see is used one hundred and eighty six times in the New Testament. So the Bible invites people to look and see Jesus and believe. In invited Thomas. come on call over He didnt try. Oh. I hope we can time travel someday. I write about this in my chapter on James, the Lord's brother I mean, remember John's sevenenty five, not even his brothers believed in him. They were humiliated by Brother Jesus. James is probably back in the family stone shop working. He's embarrassed. Brother Jesus has been crucified He's already been achieved his brother was accused of being a bastard by some. this son of ill repute is's not the carpenter's son. and he's there. and there's this amazing appearance tradition in F Corinthians fifteen seven where it says, and then he appears to James. And I wish I could go back to that moment where and he's like, bro Check out my side Check out my wrists. They really got me And we know that James then becomes the leader of the first Mgach Church He's a pillar of the church. Paul meets with James to make sure he has the gospel right And James dies, and we know this according to Josephus in eighty sixty two stoned to death believing that his brother is the Messiah. Yeah. And so I play with the audience I mean, I have four sons. What would it take for you to believe your brother was the son of God? Right? mean we have to ask ourselves these questions. with brothers is like ye Yeah, it's like, I know that guy he's definitely not the son of. Well they did they did kind of believe before. obviously, if you have a false prophet, your brother is gonna know first if you're a false prophet, right Any family out there, all the the guys cashing in on the the right sort of the the prophetic movement of sealen, you know sell the church his brothers are going to know. I think your family always knows the real you and that's why you're not you're not famous in your own hometown because like this guy. You know, we talk a lot about mysteries, talk a lot about design and ancient architecture and the things and the beginning of human history And every single person walking around this earth is unique and it started long before we got here and we were thought of. And I think that's why we're so grateful to partner with preborn because they provide free ultrasounds for women. We're facing unplanned pregnancies And those ultra sounds matter and it helps bring one more unique life into the world. Yeahere the Bible's pretty specific that we were knitted together in our mother's wombs and that he knows the number of hairs on our heads. For a lot of people, unexpected pregnancies, they happen. Dads feel overwhelmed, unsure they're not sure if they're ready for fatherhood. Moms, the same thing Like This is why preborn is so important and why we're so vocal about supporting preborn bringing pro life is that preborn provides free ultrasounds. So expectant parents can see their baby often for the first time. and these parents, often overwhelmed by the unknown, are met with support, encouragement, incredible resources. they have to walk. this road alone. And today you can help another father or a mother out there that needs that same moment of hope For just twenty eight dollars, you can sponsor an ultrasound through preborn and help expectant parents see a future filled with life passion and the hope of God's love. to donate pound two hundred fifty and say baby pound two fifty. Baby Or visit preborn d. com slash blurry. That's preborn d. com slash blurry sponsored by preborn. It's interesting to think, why do you think Jesus even in growing up? It's a myster. We don't know anything about his childhood. We don't know anything about like his teen years Brothers kind of get probably a glimpse in childhood that he's something different, but they still don't know Even til the end we has to reappear at the final Is there something else a different mission that Jesus is on than just proving to the locals who He is? Well, I think the Bible I think the gospels answer the question. Yeah. If we wrote everything down that Jesus did, the libraries of the world couldn't contain it. Saint John says that. But these things have been written so that you will believe The gospels are extremely missional and yet your question is valid because the early church, nascent Christianity wants to answer all those questions. Jesus wasn't the greatest playmate. He would do weird things. He would kill things and heal them. And so this is where the apocryphal gospels come in and try to fill those gaps.. And one thing that's interesting, my expertise is in the extra canonical gospels The greatest event of all time. you're talking about, you know blurry creatures, a blurry event. Where's the body We have no eyewitness accounts of the actual moment of resurrection. And the gospel of Peter comes along, which is not written by Peter in its's late second century, and that purports to tell us what happened at the tomb. Jesus emerges as a giant. Two angels follow after him. The cross follows after Jesus and the cross is talking We have a talking, hovering, levitating cross. And so it attempts to fill in the gaps. so there's a lot of gap filling in some of these extra canonical works. So that's why the early churches looking at them saying, No, that's not going to be in the Bible. That's not what happens. But someome of it gives you context though. It's hard to know which Right, You know, extra biblical literature helps and what hurts Well, and that's why I encourage my students just to read them and you'll see an immediate difference. I mean, just when you read them, they get names wrong. they don't seem to know the geography correct And then they answer questions that Later generations of Christians were asking not the first original Yes, the Church fathers, right? Yeah. And we've started our show with a lot of data. like we have a big foot footprint here. I love cast it in nineteen sixty seven. We got the scientists on, we didn't just rely on stories alone. that's what you're doing is you're like, these are the artifacts, These are some coins, bringing all the receipts. This is a shroud Yeah, You know,re you're piecing together evidence and like we have is like, this is the hair, this is the DNA, this is the footprints. This is the scientist who says this can't be faked. This is not a fake thing This is a real preacher whatever it is, right? And I think that You have to appeal to that skept. You got to start there and then work your way to the more relational stuff, which is hard to prove exists or doesn't exist, right? Like does he love us? Yes Well, you can't You can't show the shroud and say he does. but we can see the evidence that he he was a real person who died and resurrected And whereere do we go from the cup? You showed us that It's showing tilt time. Yeah. Okay. So I want you to hold some first century dice. All right And check out his house. And I don't know if you guys arere these real They are made from bone. They are first century unearth in Jerusalem. Got it from my friend Zack Antiquities store number twenty four. Everybody needs a Zack. That's right.s handice You know, and you can even throw them around on the table if you want. but I want to I want you to just knowish I the crap That's right. Let's go. I'm hot. All four gospels record the evidential detail. and just hold on to him while I talk and explain it. I mean, they all record this evidential detail that the executioners orre gambling before the clothes of Jesus, while the author of L was dying right behind them And of course, this of completes Palm twenty two Literally, they cast lots for my garments. David sees this prophetically a thousand years before And you know what that tells me? It just reminds me how desensitized I can get to what happened on the cross so many of us are there. We're like, just gamba. Oh, yeah, okay, he died And those dice are a reminder to me of his love. Romans five eight says, but God demonstrated H love for us and that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. I said this on Wreussell Brand the other day because he's a movie guy. I said It's written in the Greek. It's only one of two places in the Greek where it's written in the continuous. It's like a movie on a loop that never ends. God keeps demonstrating H love for you and me and that while we were at our worst, he sent his best. And he sent his bestest for guys that were gambling for his clothes and killing his son at the same time It's a love so unimaginable It could only be grace because it doesn't make sense That's cool, man. So you can see, I just did that in two minutes. Yeah, so you take the evidence. And then it has a context give you the application and now the interpretation and the application is Lord, don't let my heart be cold to what you've done. ever. It's hard though. I mean, people still in our comment section all the time, the Bible's, you know It's totally been disproven and And you can show them all the prophecies that have come true and all how the books connect and how all the things. There's no way But all these writers could have connected all these things. and still it's like you can't prove in this day and age. somethingomething is real or not? Do you believe the Holy Spirit has to come into that conversation somewhere to help us belieelve the evidence or well, I would say it two ways The evidence for the Bible is such that It is the I view them as un impeachable historical document. Sure based on text criticism. You don't have to have any faith to believe that. We can go back to the earliest manuscripts and see that, o, that's what they wrote. That's what they said. People believe this. and oh, look what it did to the Mediterranean world. It utterly transformed the Mediterranean world. It Christianizes Rome. Christians care about sick people. They care about they care about university education. they care about women. they love children. There's a letter P Oxrinkus seven hundred forty four that I published where it says own aint dea. it's if it's a boy, keep it. if it's a girl, throw it away This is a love letter A guy wrote to his wife and what changes that? the Jesus movement. So I mean, we can look at the impact the scriptures made. Now, does the Holy Spirit help us believe, convict us withithout a doubt. The Holy Spirit is our truth guide. In Greek, he's our Hodgo. He's literally our truth tour guide. He leads us along the road, it's Hod road in Greek, Hodgo, He leads us along the road to truth. So there's no question that the Holy Spirit empowers that belief. But again We're not believing in fairy tales or legends. The Bible is about real people, real places, real events, and that is evidenced as we see What's the next thing you got? Oh man. Let's go. I want you to hold this. This is brand new. justust got this. This is a Roman needle. Don't prick yourself And do you remember Jesus is speaking to the rich people? and he is saying that it would be easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven. Well, you're holding the eye of the needle right there And a lot of camels getting through that. No. But what's cool about that is to me, that's a picture of grace. So again, we're using an object from the first century. This is not a replica, this is an artifact to say, well, Jesus, who can be saved? And he said, Hey, with God, all things are possible. It's another reminder of the incredible grace of God that does not make sense. If it is too good to be true, and that's how you know it's grace Some people You know, need to see these things. Some people need to touch the hands. some people have to have more evidence What are some stories like when you're sharing Th u pieces of evidence to people that they've started to believe in this story I receive messages every day. of these kind of podcasts in these books where people come back to Christ happened in the airport yesterday on the way here. and it is such a blessing because people want to know they're believing the truth. Everything rises and falls. If we lose our grasp on truth, we lose our grasp on God. And in a world of AI and a world of where do you get verified information? And that's just growing to know that the absolute truth is found in Jesus. Ipil trruth, JES US It's utterly life changing. I mean, it is it is my it is utopia for me to get these emails because people are saying, I'm using this book to talk to all my skeptical friends because I don't BeCause like you said, I mean, Reiley, you're going to get comments all the time bashing the Bible, The Bible bashers. Yeah. But guess what? We don't even have to privilege the text. I mean, the first three generations of the church didn't have a Bible They just had oral testimony and it transformed everything.. Well, all the academ appealed to the evidence. So academics believe in Jesus. He existed. He was a character in history. What's the difference between When you present this evidence you have to believe something else about Jesus. What do you What do you think happens there in terms of their changing their view? like, Yeahah, Jesus existed too He was the son of God. Right. And that's what archaeology can't do.. That is an act of faith And but again, this is again, we believe in there is a body of content That Christianity is content and Christianity is an event and it is facts of the gospel. Jayi Packer would always say that. He would say, we believe in the person and the facts of the gospel. And so Christianity, our worldview, has content to it. That's why we have to know something. We have to know the gospel to believe. Now what's so great about it, we don't have to know hardly anything to become a Christian.ight. It's what we learn I love what RT Kendall said to me All of Bible study the rest of your life is trying to figure out what happened to you at the moment of conversion. I mean, that's literally all of it. And so I think, you know, but yet there are many skeptics who are Bible scholars. I mean, the guy that examined me, I did a ninety three thousand word thesis on the resurrection in Oxford and literally in Oxford, december eleventh, twenty twelve He shows up and he my vivo Vo at my living voice. And he said, I just have one question. He said, Do you actually believe the resurrection happened? And then he goes, O is that just imaginative storytelling I said Professor Telford, the evidence leads and David Humes said a wiseemen chues probability the evidence leads me to believe, yes, he physically, bodily rose from the grave. I believe that with all my heart. And he goes, Ohh, I don't see it that way. Let's start your Viva And you pass me with commendation. Now he was a student of William Barclay who, like John MacArthur would use Barclay Bible backgrounds all the time. That guy didn't believe in the supernatural at all. Yeah. And so there is a disconnect. I mean And they don't want to believe it to accommodate their lifestyles either. Is that the shrouds' point right there. Oh yeah yes. Go to SBL. It's a party culture Society Biblical literature, five thousand Bible scholars They know all the facts, they just don't want to believe them because they would actually have to live by them. Because they would have to transform you. Yeah. Good, man. I mean. And I would that was my struggle. I would go I would come home from faculty of Theology at Keeeel College And my wife, I mean, and I would say Audrey I don't know if anyone else is a Christian in the group. all We all have our Greek New Testaments on our lab And I don't mean that judgmentally. I mean that like I'm looking for a brother or a sister in Christ around the room who actually believes in this. And they didn't. And so it was a lonely road. But I wanted to go that track with my professor Craig Evans found this track to go to Oxford. whereere he could be my doctor father, but where I could hold the biblical manuscripts in my hand. I mean, do you know what that was like for me? I would be in the Griffith Paprolologogy lab under a microscope holding a third century Gspel of John fragment in my hand And that's when God really spoke to me And I don't use that term often. I know God led me to marry my red headed wife, and I know God spoke to me to do what I do now. This is the lane I've been called to. So He doesn't know the context of why you just just do it, know. He makes fun of redheads a lot. Really? Yeah, I'm glad she's not here. of respect. It's one that. So producer Ben, that's another thing. but so we make geer jokes a lot. Over the years we have like an understanding of why a piece of evidence is important, right? Right. For the average person, look at this and go, it's just a footprint, no big deal. But for the nerds and people who really. It's a big deal because You know, And so someone will look at this and be like, okay, cool, a needle.'s there's nothing supernatural woven into this. You can't prove that. But you do have an artifact or evidence of an artifact that has that supernatural Yes. evidence in And I think that's why the shhroud is such an important part of this conversation. The shhroud of Turin is an artifact. that has the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus included. and no other artifact does that outside of the Bible. It is an artifact that is a moment That is the most significant moment of all time Physicist Paulo deeloazaro, who I interviewed in inter in Italy said that the light energy it would take to change the linen flax which that's what happens. It is zero two microns thin So if you took a piece of your beard and you divided up one of your beard hairs, one fifth of your beard hairs, is how superficial the image is on the shrub. This is why it vanishes. If you get closer than eight feet, you can hardly see it So this is what science, the greatest scientists cannot replicate today. So an energy hits this cloth that does not scorch it And so I'm meeting with the physicist and he's like, you know, it's pick power. It's cold power. I'm like, yeah, you know, okay, I'm just trying to stay. I'm not a physicist. and I didn't stay at a holidayress last night either. So I mean, the physicist is telling me and he said, no, it's pick power. It's thirty four billion watts of energy traveling at one fortieth of a billionth of a second That's what he was able to replicate. He has a weapons clearance at a neeilabs. So he works with one of the strongest lasers on planet Earth And he and I actually have a sample They grew from flax, a linen shroud That would be identical to a first century linen shroud, herringbone three one herring bone weave And it took thirty four billion watts of energy one fortty eighteth of a billionth of a second to change the chemical nature to leave an image or an impression in the shroud But it only happened in a postage sized stamp. The shroud we have is fourteen feet long. It's like a bedsheet. It's three and a half feet wide. And we and that's three to four times power on Earth. I've had many mathematicians and physicists email me since the book came out, verifying We have we don't have that kind of power. And so when you think about this,, this is light power. this is light energy. This is a moment when his body burst back into life. And what I like to say is if a Big Bang created the earth An even bigger bang redeemed the worth. Isn't that powerful to think about Yeah I mean, it's incredible. I think we did one episode on it before, and I left a believer It's something supernatural happened to that the linen Why do you think it's I mean, it's been called the most studied artifact in human history? Because it has, there's not even a close second. onene hundred and two academic disciplines have studied the shroud and put their academic reputation on the line. And these are everyone from mathematicians to physicists, to medical doctors, hematologists, archaeologists, et cetera. They're all saying the same thing. We cannot explain how there's an image in the cloth. The Shroud of Turn Research project team StEp. that went to Tin in nineteen seventy eight. I spoke with the late Barry Schwartz on the phone, offtten, sadly, he's now dead. they thought they were getting a free trip to Italy. They go there. They're having drinks in the lobby And they're all giggling and saying things like, well, give me fifteen minutes in the scientific record And I will prove that the shroud is a hoax No one was giggling after the first day They slept next to it. They had one weekend with the shhroud that the Savoy family, the Catholic Church would have never allowed it. The Savoy family allowed the shhroud to be examined. becausecause remember, this is nineteen seventy eight, the Catholic Church doesn't take control of it until nineteen eighty three when the Duke of Savoy is exiled And he bequeaths it to John Paul II.. So they would have never let it. This is a private family that allows the shroud to be studied. And they're doing all of these different it takes four years for them to publish all their work and they prove And this is the first time I've used the word prove They prove that it is not a man made object It cannot be replicated What do you do with the know I've watched enough and listened to enough about this and I want your take, but there's The skeptic argument back is always well that carbonated in ' eighty eight and it came back as medieval. And a lot of people take that and run with them and be like, well, this qualifies everything. It's a medieval forgery. Of course, we've just g through why this isn't a painting and why it's not There's no pigment, There's no dye, There's no breaststrokes. And so the carbon dating happens in nineteen eighty eight. My friend Tristan Casia Blanca just did a book on it British liibrary sat on the raw data for twenty seven years So we couldn't study what they actually studied. We couldn't access what they actually what their raw materials were. Seven labs were supposed to do the carbon dating. Only three did Arizona, Zurich and Oxford Seven were're supposed to The gentlemen, they write on the board twelve sixty to thirteen ninety based on the carbon dating The Shroud of Turn research scientific community based, they begged these labs, whatever you do donon't cararbonate the edges Even the shroud that I travel with, which is a replica, we had to add gaff, whatever you call it, We had to re phrase. And so the shroud has been patched on the sides because I mean, it's a linen cloth. And linen will last forever, by the way. We have the Tarquan dress. from three thousand BC, okay. So that's three thousand years older than the shroud. I mean, given the right circumstances, linen will last forever. Let telly Bahamas so their Exactly. those shirts are not going out. Right. So yeah. And so what's amazing about it, they they carbonate at the top left. That's obviously been patched. After twenty seven years, Tristan gets access to the data. The data shows that the sample they use is not homogenous with the shroud itself. And then there's a journal of archaeometry same Oxford study twenty nineteen that now she says The carbon dating is totally untenable. So if you were a skeptic of the shroud, you would be outdated in your skepticism to claim or appeal to the carbon dating. likeike be a skeptic all you want. but you're going to be laughed out of the room now because no one takes the carbon dating seriously anymore because so many problems with it. One of the professors was given a one million pound chair academically Isn't that interesting? He was awarded that right after he gave the dating of of the carbon You have to kind of debunk the debunkers a lot. Totally. When people run with the debunk Yeah and they don't look at any of the data. So there's like, you know, a hundred reasons to believe this is legit. and then someone comes out with one thing And then we all run with that Why do you think that happens a lot? Well, because we have the dumbest Christians of all time in our church. They're credulous. They live by sound bites instead of substance. and that's why your podcast is so important. You guys get down into the substance. and that's why you have such a large hearing People are tired of it. and I think that's why the book's jumping off too. People are tired of being dumbed down by their pastors. They want the facts, they want the truth, they want the evidence, and they want to have the hard conversations. I mean, this is a the shroud, it took I used to be the biggest skeptic of the shroud. And I was hugely skeptical of it. But I would get on the phone with Barry Schwartz who did the TED talk on the shroud And he would walk me through patiently all of my skepticism. We edited a journal where I was a professor in Houston and I invited Barry to give a wonderful article, which I summarize and give him all the credit, five things Christians get wrong about the shroud. And it's a phenomenal part of my new book becausecause a lot of Christians are like, o, you're violating the Second commommandment. You're worshippping the shroud.'re you know listen, I have never shrop exists on so many stupid things in the church. And Barry's response was, hey, guess what? It's not man madeade Yeah. So you worshippping a manes this. Wh? Why do you think the British Museum held held the data for twenty seven years? What's happening with that All I All I can do is speculate. sureure. but that's why Why do you sit on the data if the data is going to erase the inflammatoryult is legit. Yeah it shows how Rife with problems the carbon dating was. Yeah They didn't date it where it was supposed to be dated. They were you supposed to use seven labs, they only use three. It's all secretive. and then the raw data is not allowed to be seen. I think it's interesting though, I think go back to what you said a minute ago, Christians specifically. We believe in Jesus, yes But we're still very skeptical of all things Christian The story requires us to continue to believe. I think Peter, for example, They're all in the bow, they all kind of believe in Jesus. They kind of they're theyre following him. but only one of them out you know, has a different belief a little bit further down the path And obviously in a life of a Christian, you keep going down the path, you keep trusting more and more But there is this disconnect between, it doesn't matter how much evidence you're presented with You have to get past this hurdle in your mind and You're probably running up against that hurdle all the time with skeptics and scholars and Christians. And we all think, well, I'm a Christian I'm a different camp Now we're all still have this human part of us that keeps us from jumping that hurdle, right? Right. And you're Blasting those down left and right There's probably a lot of people you still can't manag to convince? Well, the most dangerous place a person can get is where they stop seeking truth Craig Evans and I have seen it. We've seen it with Bible scholars where when you stop seeking truth, that's a very dangerous place. and that's the place that in John eleven, the Pharisees were in They saw Lazarus rise from the dead. Can you imagine? They saw it. And then they wanted to kill him again, and then they wanted to kill Jesus So you have a miracle and that still was not enough to believe. And so yes, there are people who, hey, God is a gentleman. And if you close your mind off to God, you close your heart off to God, God's gonna give you what you wish. You are already experiencing hell. ' hell is I've just read the Wight of Gory on vacation Hell is absence from God. And God will, I mean, heaven is in God wants us to enjoy our life even now and enjoy our relationship with Him. And God give you what you desire. It's just deeply relational. I keep coming with that. and it's more relational than you can even fathom. It's more humanizing, it's more present in And being known, then But I think that part is missed a lot in the way that we're presented with the gospel. It's all this data, all these facts, but it's like But we we have relational skepticism as well. That's right. I don't know why that is Maybe we've been hurt by somebody or a parent or a father figure, and so we can't see Jesus as a loving father. But we make choices every day based on fewer bits of evidence You know, I got on a plane here yesterday with both feet I didn't know the pilot captain I don't really know how the plane works, but I knew enough to think it would get me here. Yeah. And so when is enough information enough for you to give your heart to Christ We have the greatest data that shows that on april fifth, AD thirty three, That man physically walked out of the grave alive He appeared to those who believed in him. He appeared to those who were indifferent to him, and he appeared to those who were hostile against him. Oh And Paul, I love it twenty years later is saying, Hey, check it out the five hundred saw. They're still alive today. You can go ask Isn't that amazing to think about? And so when you have where I push back on the skeptics is you make all these decisions. You don't know how your car works, but you're going to get in it and drive your Tesla and let it drive you. Sure, you don't have everybody else is going to drive. Yeah. I mean, there's a million variables, right? But like when is it enough for you to say yes to Jesus? I mean, that We have an abundance of evidence And we can't say that. The other religions can't say that. The other religions do not call Christianity their or excuse me, archaeology their closest cousin. I always say that archaeology is Christianity's closest cousin because it's true Walk us through the rest of the shroud because I mean, there's You know, of the things I know you talk about are the wounds and those impressions Yeah and kind of how you kind of already talked about some of the physics like this inssane bursts of energy we can't replicate. right? It's this image on a cloth. you really can't see I mean, it was was really discovered by a negative photograph, right? It was someone took the negative photograph And it was like, hey, there's a guy there. Yes, you know. And So eighteen ninety eight Sicondaia is a lawyer prorofessional photography does not exist at the time And I've seen the actual camera. It's the size of like a dorm fridge from the nineteen eighties over here And its a spange take work. Yeah, he takes glass plates The expos this is before celluloid film. I just saw all this in turn. I went to turn to see it all. And the exposures take fourteen minutes and twenty minutes. He has to build scaffolding in the church. The church does not have electricity, so he gets generators This is one of the first flash photography photos And so he takes the picture He's in the dorm room And he sees the picture, which we have we have the We have it in the sepia kind of normal color that people are used to In the dark room, this is what he sees And you see all of the details in the negative, which is actually the photo positive And never more appropriately, he says, Ohh my God Because he was a follower of Jesus and Secanda believes he is the first person since the Apostolic era to see the face of Jesus. He's immediately accused of being a hoaxer. of course. He's ridiculed until onnreay's phhotos in nineteen thirty one. So the guy goes through all of this, just ridicule. you're a faker, you're a hoaxer. could you hoax that. With ancient Photoshop? Yeah ye Yeah, you're literally like anoc. How how did you do that? oldop. Really, your question is great because eighteen ninety eight is this is what kicks off the scientific study of the shroud because until this photo was taken and we see the wounds, we see you can even see I'm looking right now at the wound in the side. I'm looking at all of the blood. I'm looking at the wounds and the wrists. and this would be a good point to hand you another artifact. Yeah, because the shroud gets hold that up. So you this is not a reproduction This is an actual crucifixion nail from the first century. Now, I'm not saying it's the nail that crucified Jesus. I'm saying it's an actual first century crucifixion nail. We know that beyond any doubt because of the square shaft And it's been hammered multiple times I love this. Let Colossiions two hundred fourteen wash over you as you hold that. that it says that all of our indebtedness was nailed to the cross. So we don't owe that sin anymore. It was paid for. Praise the Lord But it's six inches. Was this used on someone? Yes And it was used many times because that's why it's curved It's cryptic, it'll give you chills. The Romans wanted to minimize movement but maximize torment. so they would often adjust the nails during the crucifixion just to inflict more pain And they they were bending the nail. Bending it. And the amazing thing is The shhroud gets it right. I'm pulling up you know, medieval art has the holes through the palms. Medieval That's what medieval Christian art got wrong No, they did it through the wrists right here. And again, that's the shroud gets it right. So if the shhroud is a medieval forgery And it's matching medieval art at the time, the holes would be in the palms, not in the wrists. Which we know wouldn't hold up the body weight. Exactly, Yeah. Isn't that fascinating? Jeez So when did the when did the wrists start to come onto the scene and as Part of the discussion The well, the redieval art The palms did. Yeah, medieval. That's when all so much of of what we think we know about Jesus comes out of medieval Christian art, Eeminate Jesus, not a man's man U weak No, this was a strong Jewish man who probably walked twenty thousand miles in his ministry. Jesus probably had a six pack. know, he probably was very healthy, strong. Faster than John. That's right. No, no, that's that's yeah, yeah, He probably was, even though John was faster than Peter. Yeah. But Elijah, though Elijahs like tucks his tucks his cloak and he He can he move a little bit Yeah abbsolutely It's amazing And what else mean what else we have there is? we've got the The nail placement correct in the shroud. you've got Oh we've got the Crown of Thorns. Yeah. Here's a great side by side. And to your point, right? L this at the time of this of this photo and also at the time of what that purportedly would be have been faked in that argument The Wounds, especially in the hands would have been or in the arm on the wrist would have been in the hand. so you have this problem with it being a medieval forgery because none of the medieval artists are saying just' reering. Right would have had it in the wrist. This is not no. But we know enough now about Roman crucifixion Um You don't know where we get information from about the crucifixion stuff that we can from all the skeletal remains. We have remains of twenty one different individuals who are nailed across us. And it's all between the arm always like this thing's getting passed around from like generation to generation. likeike this is and then finally and lady we take we can take a photo of the thing see it F a different perspective. Right. But there is this history of this thing. This was the legit thing people believe that obviously to keep it You know, in their family. Absolutely pass it down. And they saw it, but they saw but what they saw was this faint image, this CB image on the left. And then boom, you see the image on the right And that's like, wow. And so oftentimes when I'm doing our live events, I will actually show a picture of just the sepia looking shroud and And then you can do a classic invert on your phone And then you can see it just like Seanda pasot in the dark room whichich is really cool Yeah I mean, it takes time sometimes to catch up to these things and when you can actually see it and And you know We've gone over some of the evidence for the blurry things and say it took time and technology to prove that whatever it was it was used as evidence was actually legit. Eactly. You know, they blew up some of the footage of these old cameras and things like that and we've've we've gone over that a lot on our Our show it takes time Well, it does. and again, I just keep coming back to where's the body? I mean, like where's the body? Yeah You know, Where's the body? All they had to do to end the Christian movement was produce the body Yeah, could and they couldn't And they even had to make up a story because they couldn't find the body Yeah Again, skeptics, rightight. And then this is cool. This is this is the path that the shroud likely took. This is great slide U and this is there's pollen evidence for it as well But this is, you know, people forget that the Greek Orthodox Church doesn't get enough credit for protecting the shroud for one thousand years So the Church of the East protects it and then it goes eventually to turn in fifteen seventy eight. How do we know How do we know where' how we know about Adasse of five hundred forty four, how about The King of Agbar? becauseusebius, we have writings about the shroud that go back to nascent Christianity And then we have the pollen evidence, which is very compelling. What's your conspiracy theory on how it gets to Padessa or who grabs it. I mean, because obiously're I love doing this in blurry because we get theologians in here and we're like, let's just do some postulating this time. I'm thinking Jude brought it and I'm thinking that It gets lost for a while and then it's found miraculously. and then it is escaping. You see the dates there, if you know anything about Islam, it begins to escape the Islamic Caliphate killing everyone And that's why it ultimately ends up in Constantinople. And then we have evidence of it in Athens in twelve o five and then all the way up into Europe, France. I was meeting with a geneticist in Georgia who came to one of our events and he was verifying the pollen grains. That's what he called them. I used to call them spores. He said, no, you'd call them grains And he said the pollen grains that are on the shroud did not exist in France in the medieval times. They didn't exist So you couldn't have faked that. I mean every when you start going down the rabbit hole and get red pilled on this, I mean, you can't stop Yeah So to pick up other things? I mean, I mean contaminated or, you know, what are the skeptics saying that You know, I mean, these like pollen grains they're How many are there? There's fifty eight. thirty eight come from the land of Israel and only bloom in springtime. Let's go So Max Fry is a criminologist. and again, there's always people that are doubting his research and new research certainly can be conducted, but what I can say citing Max Fry who's a criminologist who spent five years of his life studying the shroud as he said. The thirty eight of the fifty eight pollen spores, thirty eight of them only bloom in springtime of Passover in Jerusalem You just can't make it up. I mean, that's And then the other cool thing is the image of Christ. So I want to show you something really cool. I'm really into ancient coins because Coins are the social media of the first century world. I want you to hold this one. This is the Justinian Roman Solidus And if you look on the front of it, you're going to see an image of Jesus on that's Justinian on the back But if you look on the front, you're going to see an image of Jesus. Now this is the late seventh century, okay? This is the six hundreds Justinian does something really, really important. This is the first time that we have and this is all in my book, but this is the first time we have coinage with Jesus' image imprinted on it And this was an act of faith and defiance against Islam, by the way because the Caliphate was crouching at the door. And my friend gives me this This coin, I was showing him my Herd the G coin if you want to see it. And he's like, Well, I've got this coin. I was buying gold during COVID and I bought this coin I said, Well, look at the face. Well, the face Acording to Alan Wegner, a Duke professor matches the face on the man of the Shroud at two hundred points of correspondence. So you have a coin that matches the face of the man of the Shroud How's up us How is it possible if it's a hoax? What is this? it says it on their late six hundred. I see we were going here, so they were So right there, yeah. Take it from the shr. Look at this. H's all of what is the source material for this coin? What is the source material for all of this art? These are all the icons They all have the same source material because the whole church knew This is what the face of Jesus looked like. So that's why we have all of this art. This is the Christ Panto Crotter icon from the five hundreds, which is in Sinai at Saint Catherine's monastery again matching the Man of the Shroud, which again, and then look at that, see the overlay we do here This is cool Well, me see how you get to it W. I mean, that is the source material. So what is all this art coming from? And then my friend Doug Powell built this, who's a Sroud scholar and used Midjourney AI. and took he took just these just those two data points and put it in I don't know if you guys have played with midjourney at all but he took only those two data points. to produce what Jesus would have looked like. And guess what? That became the cover of my book, that Jesus disiscoveries So boom, boom. Oh, and then there it is. So you're this is the this is the Justinian Roman Solidus So we have a sermon and a coin, essentially This is where the gospel is literally traveling. So if you and I went back into The seventh century, we would see, wow, Christ is honored here. And wow, that face sure looks like the man of the shhroud. Isn't that fascinating?cinating So you have you have Christian art now has been impacted by it. You have the coins that are impacted by it. You have pollens, you have blood type. It just goes on and on. And again, this is what it looked like. Again, these are not images that match is these images. He doesn't have a beard cleanly shaed and doesn't even look like a Jewish man. This shows when it gets off the rails, when we get a Jesus that's not the Jesus of the New Testament I think it's incredible because we've done similar episodes on things like You know, the arrk of the covenant where it ended up and theories of where There's all these famous relics that kind of get passed around and find different. and there's a whole story of it. Obviously, Jesus is uch an impactful character that people held on to these things. And some people Christians get hung up on, well, you're worshhiping the shrroud. No you're saying But it's like, no, its a piece of evidence that you can trust the story. Exactly. I mean, am I worshippping Contra over there? No, but it's a piece of evidence of my childhood that I can remember the cheat code to have unlimited bullets and lives. mind, what in your mind does the shhroud prove In my mind, the shroud proves the resurrection of Jesus. It's scientific proof. So we have evididentiary and then we've got sort of eyewitness, right? which is basically a building a case. Yeah.tant show. you know, have appearance tradition, we have empty tomb tradition. We have no body And then we have this scientific evidence and I say this now I believe that the shroud is authentically the shroud of Jesus. and I believe that because I'm not irrational Yeah. And so what does it mean? For me, and I'll quote you had Rus Brial on. He's a great guy. He said it best. It's an itemized receipt of how much Jesus loves us. That' good And I think that you know, over the years, obviously we can understand some things in like four dimensions. like when you hear Near death experiences where people encnter Jesus and he's like this being oblight that you can't describe He transfigures before Even the angels described and the watchers were like shiny ones, you know? So there is this understanding and the blurry verse and our listeners that certain beings shine in a certain way. And then after the fact, he's even got a resurrected body, which is different. Moses comes down like He was saying with this glowing encounters with God or Jesus himself, he's shining. So he comes back into his body And it basically creates a photo negative on this This like Yeah It's a residue. It's a signature. of that light. Yeah. Jesus is the blurriest of all blurry creatures Yeah. because when he manifests himself, he always manifests himself in brilliant light. It's Mark nine, the transfiguration. And people want to hang out in this light. It's Acts twenty five twenty six when Paul is giving his testimony. He's on the way to Syria, Damascus and he sees a light that's Yeah greater than the noonday sun And I have filmed on first century roads at noontime. It is hot and the sun is bright. And so I'm wondering, what kind of light did he see It blinded him? Yeah We know in Revelation twenty two that there'll be no need for the sun Because Jesus will give light to all. He is the light of the world. John one five, Cato Lombano, the light shines in the darkness and the darkness cannot overcome it or take it down So that's blurry to me. That's amazingly And then you've got the skeptics even and I even appeal to them. this is Ed Sanders u who by no means likely believed in the physical resurrection, but he could not deny. you were just talking about appearance traditions. that that Jesus followers and Paul had experiences, talkal about blurry experiences In my judgment is a fact What the reality was that gave rise to those experiences, he does not know. But here's a skeptical. He wrote Paul in Palestinian Judism. I mean, a heavyweight Bible scholar saying these people had experiences and that's a fact You you have Gartt Ludemon, no longer an atheist because he's dead now But he said it may be taken as historically certain Peter and the disciples had, and I'm going to add a blurry experience after Jesus' death in which Jesus appeared to the risen Christ. We have Anthony Fleu. The evidence for the resurrection is better than for cllaimed miracles in any other religion. It is outstandingly different in quality and in quantity. And so what I say is,, the written and archeological sources overwhelmingly support the gospel's narratives. that are embedded that show the resurrection narratives that are embedded. I love this this is trarein. like I love what you're doing with this work as well. It's like You speak to, we live in this empirical academic era. Right? that where People like show me the evidence. Yeah you mean about social media. All these can do on social media cheating in elections. are they is there aliens? or is it whatever? Is it show me the evidence. Yeah right And you're bringing the receipts here. And I think It's really hard. And it's like the idea that takes more faith to look at all this and be like,ah. Yeah,ah, it's not. What I love is it's equipping and resourcing normal people. I did not write this book for scholars. I wrote this book for moms like mine who are in lineups, you know, waiting for an hour. They can listen to the book, they can read it, they can read it with their kids. My nine year old was reading it to me the other night And it is giving Christians a new level of confidence to have these conversations because the more I know about my faith, the more comfortable I am in a faith conversation. That's the feedback I'm getting. I mean, I was just at the National Mall for the Prayer thing. couldouldn't walk five feet without someone saying I read that book, it has given me so much more confidence to talk about Jesus to my friends What do you think is the difference between the faith of the woman who touches His garment or the centurion who sent his servant to go tell Jesus what to do. And Jesus said, this guy has more faith than anybody here. Right. What's different about their faith, you think I think it's amazing. we talk a lot about their faith And yet faith is only defined by its object We don't have faith in faith And faith is a mustard seed is all that Jesus said But It's amazing though, that there are people that believe more Yeah And John did When John followed Jesus, his whole ministry, He was the only one who stayed at the cross, and yet when he sees the linen garments, it says, and he saw and believed So we can believe more So I think that these people, you know, the Christian faith is a living faith It is a faith that, you know, the deeper you go into Christianity, the more rock solid it is, the more strong your faith gets, the more close you get to Christ And you're in a spirit of prayer just all the time praying with your eyes open just all day long. You're just constantly with the Lord. That's where it gets exciting. because I think that would be the only difference is they're willing to take God at His word And they're willing to say, yes, I believe. And yet let's not put down those that are the dad of Mark nine. Lord, I believe help my unbelf. No because that's where a lot of us are. I think maybe at some point we land there, right? Absolutely. Yeah. It's a dark Ny of theoul. John the Baptist did. Yes. And no one greater among women and men and women had been born Jesus said, no one greater than John the Baptist and he had his moments. wrestling with Doubt as is a human experience. And doubt is not unbelief And but there's also like scales over eyes. Yeah. There seems to be a description of Almost like a physical blindness. What do you think of that Well, I think that Satan is real And he is the deceiver like spiritual entities keep us from belief or seeing the evidence. And I believe many pastors commit spiritual adultery every Sunday from their pulpits and deceive people How do you think that happens? Like what are they doing? They are apostates who don't believe the Bible and they twist the scripture They make it say things. they commit essentially isoesis and they foisted a meaning on the scripture that was never intended to be there. And because we have a culture that goes to AI now and Google instead of God's worord We have the most credulous Christians of all time And so they're soft targets It's laziness, right? It You want AI to do your writing and' reading for you, and you want your pastor to do read the Bible for you and tell you what it means. But these guys are knowingly deceiving their congregation. They're deceived themselves. Do you believe like some of the ancient Like Jesus is obviously appearing to Muslims this is one hundred percent. And he's appearing to people over time and they're seeing him Maybe the artists see even and they're painting what they see and then it matches the shroud. Yes, also Where are they getting that image from? I believe that the closer this is kind of my blurry thought The cl we are seeing a controlled revelation of Jesus, the closer we get to the secondcond Coming. of Christ. And I believe that we're seeing more and more of it. This control, what I would call tied to technology this controlled revelation tied to technology. I mean, we have so many more advances just in archaeology of things we can see now that they couldn't see Grenfell and Hunt when they dug up, you know manuscripts in Egypt you know, over a hundred years ago, this is an exciting time to be a Christian. There's never been a more exciting time to be a follower of Jesus because these experiences are happening And God is a God to be experienced. I experience God through all these artifacts. I experience hisis love, H presence. When I the first time I saw The helmet of Thorns, which here I am a PhD. I've studied what I'm supposed to be the smartest guy in the room on Roman crucifixion. You are in this room, Jermman. And no, but I'm saying to myself Craigs here. I thought yeah, he is and I thought I thought it was just a little headband of thorns Yeah. And then I see the shroud. We have a minimum of thirty to fifty puncture marks. And then I see this crown of thorns I posted on it on my social media the actual thorn that they used, and it's pictured right in front of the Eastern gate in Jerusalem and then the Crown of Thorns and It just took my breath away of God's love for me. it should have been my head in that crown It shouldould have been my hands But it wasn't. And God knows me at my worst and he sent his best for me And so to experience it, the love of Christ And that's what the Bible's about. It's about relationship. It's about redemption. No one is beyond his redemption right now. And I think that's why the shroud is reaching so many people right now is they're seeing What lengths Jesus went through to pay for our sin And we get desensitized to it. The dice remind me of that. And when you get a reminder, a fresh reminder, of this demonstration that Luke that excuse me that Peter excuse me that Paul says in Romans five eight God demonstrate it in a way where his love is undeniable. He demonstrates it in the most the most Visceral way possible, how much he loves us Yeah. What about some of the other things you wrad about? Can we talk about? Absolutely quickly? Like what about the James Oshuwar? Oh my gosh. Well, let me show this too. Have you heard of the aar I saw his recently.. So this is this is another chapter. I mean, when you have hostile witnesses And I've written about this extensively If the Jesus thing didn't happen, why are so many people upset about it? for a few hundred years. what this is called the This is the Alex Saminos Graffito. So that's Alex Saminos sebatee Theon in Greek And on the left, this is called the Palatine Graffito because it's on Rome's Palatine Hill. This This was the nine hundred two z area of Rome. Okay. This is where all the fancy places were. This is found in eighteen sixty seven, but it dates to the late second century and notice that they're mocking Christians. for worshippping an ass. That's the head of a donkey. What's amazing, That's likely a soldier And he has his arm up, he's worshiping Jesus, but he's being ridiculed for it Look, he worships his God, the God that has, you know the donkey head And what's interesting is on the adj on the room inside And by the way, this reminds me of the passage of the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who don't believe, but to us who are believing, it's the power of God unto salvation. And so This the point of this though This is the earliest image that we have of Roman crucifixion and from late antiquity and it's ridiculing a faithful man for worshiping Jesus. Isn't that interesting? Out of all the crucifixion victims. O of all the things you could This is This is the OG illustration of crucifixion. We do not have an earlier depiction of crucifixion in the Roman Empire before the Palatine graffita. How old? And it's mock this is late second century. Okay. So It' moocking Rome, Palatine Hill. But on the inside of the building, and I'll quote my friend Paul Foster on this from the UK, a great Bible scholar There's another inscription. This one in Latin And it says Alex Saminos Fidelis Alex Saminos is faithful. 'cause sometimes we got to stand alone. You know, I've been I've had more hate on me. you know, because people hate the truth. And so this chapter reminds me, A, we have hostility towards it. But that hostility, just like you have hostility towards the bigigfoot stuff I mean Hostility actually proves some things to me. because know you look at Kelsus and Porphyy that ridicule they're like the early newew atheists that are ridiculing the Christian movement for being dumb. L you have women as your eyewitnesses. Why didn't Jesus appear to Pilate or to the elites of his day? And that's where you have the apocryphal gospels come in. and who does Jesus appear to? He appears to pilate. He appears to the high priests And it tries to fill in those gaps because I presented a paper at SBL twenty Society of Biblical Literature, Chicago, twenty twelve, what the writers of the Gspels should have done better if they were inventing the gospel narrative. and not telling any I in witnesses. No, there's so much embarrassment in it where it's like You wouldn't write it this way unless it actually happened. And this is where I learned this from my mentor, Craig Evans. I mean, nobody believed in resurrection outside of Judaism. And even in Judaism, It was an eschatological resurrection that was going to happen someday, not an individual resurrection. There's no psychological motivation to invent a resurrection narrative unless it actually happened. Judaism is a coherent religion. They already had a resurrection in the end. They could have They could have honored Jesus as a great rabbi or prophet, but no, they speak of his body being resurrected, which was an anathema to the Roman mind. I mean, they would have mocked. I mean, we live in the Walking Dead day where it's cool to talk zombies. It's fun to talk about bodies nobody believed in resurrection And so this was truly innovative The worst possible talking point to start a religion would be that. And that's why I think you have the skeptics in Luke twenty four twenty one Cleopus and likely his wife Mary They said we had hoped that he was the Messiah, but he was just killed. And then they don't realize Jesus is walking the seven mile journey with him, and they later say, We're not our hearts burning within us. I've been in more first century tombs, by the way than probably anyone you've ever met And it is fascinating to go in these tombs and to see what they it approximates what they would have experienced at that first Easter morning. We can date the resurrection to april fifth, eighty thirty three. We know according to the Jet proropulsion Laboratory that sunrise It was early five forty three AM that morning. Women are going to the tomb. Why to spice the body, to do to S Shiva to worship to pray. All first century tombs, they look like your hand. You've got the stone cover. you go inside, you'll worship, mourn and pray, spice the body And you do that for seven days. So they're just following Jewish burial traditions. And that's why women are the first witnesses of the empty tomb. saying Why are they close it then Do you think? was a tomb, right? They rolled the rock and in front of that W was that to prevent? Was that the preventing them And they sealed it. Yeah. And you can't come in and do your thing. Yes, Eactly. because they had heard they had heard, you know, rememember, Antipast thought thatohn Jesus was John the Baptist resurrected. He was afraid that Judism in the first century is very blurry, very superstitious. ghosts, phhantom stories. We've seen Jewish magic books that have mummified bats on them. we have photographs of Well I don't I mean, I think thats stuff still happens today. So Yeah. Well, I mean, they think when Peter It gets out of prison and shows up as a ghost. I mean, there's a guy that's really get into the Bible. They knowew what So I mean, the Bible is obviously poetic too. I mean, I think that some people think, well more information is going to help people believe, but I think if you're a writer O you or you Okay musician Not just layer on fifty thousand layers because because this fits Mic There's a balance there. So the gospels are not going to put everything in there It's not going to be the the buffet or what's you always say the menu at a cheesecake factory. It's be a cheesecake fact you can order everything Yeah It's in. I, not's to beleager at this point though, Jerea, but it's like it's such an interesting piece of evidence this graffiti because This is not a believer of Christ being like I'm putting this for posterity. Right. It's actually someone saying It's an ancient b are idiots. Yeah and you're God as a donkey head. Literally. And this is this is what I'm choosing to spend my time etching into a wall. So because people believed in Jesus at the time and they were telling people Obviously and then you had the you had the The skeptics of his day making fun Totally. And again, learning from hostile witnesses.. And that's where I appreciate the hostile appearances to Solve Tarsus and to James. And so let me apply this. M this really is helpful This shows all of the correspondence of the wounds, the abrasions that match the way in which Jesus is crucified. Nobody has crucified the way Jesus is crucified. The Crown of Thorns puts it beyond all doubt that the man of the shhroud, do you see the wound patterns in the head? do you see the scourge marks Are you all aware of how many scourge marks are on the man of the shroud? No No. You want to guess? two hundred, three seventy four So three hundred and seventy four lashes.re? discovering new things about the shroud? Oh, yes. And there's a resurgence of new science going into that. Yeah, if you're listening with us right now now watching, we've got the shhroud picture up and Jeremiah's is pointing to the wounds, wound patterns, shoulder abrasions, scourgeed marks. I'll let him walk through. almost look like what we're looking at the shrines. Yeah, those those are scorch marks because those are the and then you've got Remember, it survives a fire And I've seen the silver box where the molten dripped on it. Those are those sixteen triangles. But look at the side wound. I mean, we've got the side wound perfectly between rib five and six We we have arterial and venous blood. The blood is flowing in the right direction if you're being crucified. I mean, it gets every detail right U he's in gamortus And another interesting thing, think about the scriptures that wash over you, His body will not see decay. There's no bodily decay on the shroud. So Jesus is in rigamortis and then resurrected out of that rigamortis. So that's why his body almost looks like it's flexing even in the buttocks hisis head is up, his knees are because it's in igamortis and then he emerges, resurrected from that The shoulder abrasions get me every time Jesus carries the pitibulum. I love the passion of the Christ, but the one thing that they didn't get right, He doesn't carry the whole cross. That would have been like five hundred pounds. He carries the cross beam. And so you can see there's abrasions at a diagonal from the top right shoulder down to the left. where he's holding And he falls Now this always gets to me. and may it never not We have We have limestone from the grottos of Jerusalem in three spots, his knees hisis feet, obviously, but also in the nose When Jesus collapses And he's lost one third of his blood volume from the scourging The hematologist's report show he has high levels of ferritin. High levels of creatinin, his kidneys are failing, he's dehydrated. He can't carry the cross any further. But when he falls, he face plants on the ground. And so that's why you have on the tip of the nose This same limestone signature again, only found from Jerusalem He face plants, I believe, this is the point where hisis shoulders are likely separated Pierce Morgan. Jeremiah anatomy is all off on Jesus. You know why Let me quote Psalm twenty two to you My bones are out of joint Remember Psalm twenty two, my bones are out of joint So again, all of this We're looking at a visual picture of how our Savior was crucified and it matches not only Psalm twenty two, it matches Isaiah fifty three, the Forbidden chapter. all the correct ways. And so this I'm a visual learner, and so I wouldd encourage anyone while watching. And then here's the here's Here's the mathematician that I interviewed, Bruno Barberis. He has seen the actual shroud over one hundred times He did a probability of all of the factors that we went through And his probability is that there is a one in two hundred billion chance it is not the Jesus of the Bible. W And I said, Sir you telling me you believe, you know I'm an Americ. I'm like, okay, that'sool The the probability, sir are you telling me you personally believe. he's like, how can I not believe? Yeah The numbers compel me to believe. Yeah. So we're seeing here an amazing amount of evidence U, that I think is just Fabulous. So I have a couple of more things to show you if we have time. So on the inverted image of the shroud we just saw, there' a detail that many miss We have to ask ourselves what truly kicked off the scientific exploration of the shroud. We talked about the eighteen ninety eight photograph Let me introduce you to two physicist, Eric Jumper and John Jackson. John Jackson and I just keynoted the Innational Shroud conference last year together. They're at the Air Force Academy and they have a VP eight image analyzer in their possession because they have weapons clearance. They work atanda and Los Alamos laboratories, this is where we got to get things correct. There's a lot of bad information. Some say that the VP eight image analyzer is used to study the Mon surface. That's not correct. The military had the VP eight image analyzer to study the effects of the nuclear bomb on the surface of the Earth So they have this is an analog VP eight image analyzer And when they put an image of the shroud through The VP eight image analyzer, it had it had literal three D en coding in the image. Its like Lidar kind of looks But when they put like their kids, it's all murky, muddy. But when you put the image of the shroud, look at that on the left It has this holographic three D encoding Yeah And it's showing light Okay. so I want to do this live. That's why I'm trying to actually so if anyone out there has a VPA image analyzer, I'll buy it from you for a ministry's sake. So it's so cool though. And this is what Jumper and John Jackson could not explain that you have this this holographic three D Star Wars looking output And no one can explain this. that And this isn't the shroud itself. They didn't have the shroud itself. They just had a picture of the shroud When they put it through this machine All they could see was this essentially topographical three D information. What does the PPA do? So it looks at It looks at light densities. Light density. And that's how I would study the density of the atomic bomb, how it would affect the surface of the Earth And so they put it through there. And so this this is nineteen seventy six two years later is the Shroud of Turn research project theisturRp team that goes to Italy to research it. So this VPA image, a lot of people don't know that history It has it showed that there is a three dimensional nature. You talk about blurry. The shroud is three dimensional. Crazy So that the body itself Every single You know Part of the body is illuminating the light. It's not like a light behind it. But here's the crazy part Part of it. Illuminating even where the cloth is not touching the body So this means the body emanated out. Yeah T a power. thirty four billion watts. is the estimate from Paolo de Lazaro. but it doesn't burn it But it doesn't's it's cold pick power And it's the it's the speed at which the power and, you know, you think about the passages. Well, and think about first Corinthians fifteen, our bodies will be changed and a flash, the Bible says. And the twinkling of an eye, Paul says. Isn't interesteresting? He says our bodies will be changed in a flash y The only thing that we can get that kind of power is a bolt of lightning. Yes And unfortunately no no more one's going to see. This is a this is what if we do? This is almost like a a computer This is another image of what it approximates that moment he comes back to life. Wow So the flashlight is Do you think he just disappears? He emanates out of it and his body no longer needs that's how the shroud would cover it, by the way. This is an important This is the x ray dating, the wax. I go into all the ways the shroud has been dated in my book, The Jesus Discoveries. So that's very important. It's been dated and several other ways besides the carbon dating. This is the Heritage scientific journal. Wide angle x ray scattering shows that the Shroud has been getting old for two thousand years. It compares it with other shrouds, which is fascinating. So quick question. Yeah Could there be a way today to forge this or is it's kind of like the pyramids we still don't know No. There's no way you even st still with our tech. A British guy put up a million pounds for anyone that can replicate the shroud. He'llay him to do that. Okay. we know he's taking them up. How strong as a dollar right now is like Yeah.s like's like how has that conversion? So check this out. This is this is a this is the herringbone weave Yeah. Armothy is a wealthy man. We believe that Arimathea, and again, imagine this, okay? I want you guys put yourself in the world of Jesus for a second Jesus dies at three PM. They have to get him buried by six PM We know Nicodemus. asks pilot for the body of Jesus This is where it gets I have a chapter in my book that was written by Doug Powell. I actually read it recently because it had been a while since I read it. I began to weep because he has a chapter on the Sudarium, the face cover that we should talk about that covered Jesus Imagine these two older men, Nicodemus and Arermathea. trying to get Jesus's body off the cross. Do you think the Romans helped? Of course not. No And they they have to get his body to the tomb within three hours. The tomb is close by two hundred feet And what's fascinating is they cover his face with a facecloth because according to Leviticus, the life is in the blood in Jewish burial traditions, they cared for Every part of the body, even the blood, if the blood touched the ground, they wanted that buried with the body And what's interesting is they carry him And they lay his body on the shroud They take off the facecloth at that time and they put it in the corner of the tomb. This is where there's three terms for burial, Sindon, Ethonia and then Sudariim. The facecloth does not have the image on it. A lot of people are like, a lot of Christians who are fine Christians, They read the Bible. They don't realize that the facecloth was used to transport his body They even have it where they're plugging his nose because so much blood is oozing out of his corpse So I have images of the Sudariam But the pudarium is removed then and then the shroud covers the body And the blood stays red. This was another thing the skeptics were jumping all over because they would say, well, blood doesn't stay red. It turns like a dark brown. unless the blood has been traumatized Red blood cells break down and the plasma and bilirubin is excreted, which causeed the blood to still stay red to this day. So there it is. Where Where's that blood at? It's all there's blood all over the shroud. So it's all in the same together. And it stays red. And it stays red. Be because of trauma Because the blood has been traumatized. The red blood cells break down and it forms this bilirubin, which keeps the blood red. Where else do we see this happening? Is this like something that happens at murder scenes? Yes. Yeah. o. So we know it's traumatized blood We can say confidently but not conclusively It's type A B blood. It's human blood AB blood is Semitic blood And if you really want to unlock the key of the shroud, that's the exact same blood type on the Sudarium which is an Novo to Spain right now. type A B blood. So what do you know about that type of blood and sort of the lineage of Well, as a generalist, I quote the scholars. and so And there's there are those that disagree with it, but there are published articles that the blood is human blood and it's type AB blood And then I read or the reports that studied the blood that showed the high ferritin and creatinin that he was suffering his body was shutting down.. Th're saying kidney shutting down? Yeah That's isn't that interesting? So wild This would be a rich guy's burial shroud. Yep. It's the hererringbone weave. And we have other shrouds as well And I believe that he purchased this for his own death planning. I believe he gives Jesus his own burial shrouout, not only his tomb He's trying to get more crowns. I know. That's right., you know. So I have something else to show you guys Yeah that really was touching to me I can find it here. So I'm in CS Lewis' home. Everybody needs to see this I've been in CS Lus so many times living in O. Dude, well, I live there. not in this home, but we were in Oxford for so many months But I took my pastor, Jack Graham to C Oxford. He had never been. This is twenty twenty three. and this is about the time. This is right I was in Israel a few days before the Hamas attack, filming at all of the resurrection sites And that's when I really came to believe the shroud was authentic But so this is a few months before that And this was so this is only thirteen seconds. This is a female obviously shrou CS Lewis scholar. She's taking us in Lewis' bedroom And I had never seen this before. So check this out So there is kept an image of the shaded Tran of his mantle piece as a reminder that our Godd had a face H is and we're in this bedroom right now. Lewis kept an image of the shroud in his bedroom. to be reminded every day that our God has a face So Lewis is no Catholic And he's the greatest mind of the twentieth century And he revered the shroud. That's the nineteen thirty one E Ray photo, by the way. I'd never seen that before until twenty twenty three. Doid you see his wardrobe too? Yes.. They have one that approximates it in the house. You went in it I didn't. Did you come back? Yeah.omewhere I was going. Yeah, I did. So my point is serious these scholars take the shroud seriously. so I think we should too. So until until like the late eighteen hundreds, nobody really kind of knew What was on it, right? The pollen, the blood, and all the image which made it so clear how it corresponds and fres crucified. Well it survived three fires. Th. In fact, oh my gosh. I think that's like a d attack. Yes. and I just you know, I received recently the coolest email I didn't realize the guy that saved the shroud was an agnostic. So there's a nineteen ninety seven YouTube video. You can pull it up And the shroud is behind bulletproof unbreakable glass and the church is burning down. And this heroic fireman goes in with almost superhuman strength and you see him with an axe Just It was like, yeah, the strength of Sampson and he breaks the glass saves the shroud. He I'm giving chills talking about this. He himself was an agnostic And someone just emailed me the story the rest of the story of this guy who God used, this fireman. to save the shroud in ninety seven. But this come to faith? I hope so. I'm trying to find the. How many fires we have here? So it survived three fires. Okay. So when's the first one? fifteen thirties, I think, somewhere fifteen thirty two. Howftten fires breaking out in these random places? Yeah, I know. And then it's been doused with water. there's burn marks on it. was used probably is a as a worshipful tablecloth. so there's these L shaped burn marks in it as well. So peopleople would cut off strips in the medieval time and say, you know if you were if you had a by, let me just send you a piece of the shroud as a Good luck charm for your child. like a key chain or something. Yeah. ye. So regardless, it's got a, you know, it's got a colorful history of Yeah. And that's the thing a lot of people have to get past to just all the contact points with the shroud and then to get to the actual image on the shroud. Which probably is why some people get skeptical of it because begin to worship the item not the The reason why it's popular is the person it was laying on top of, you know, I think that's I don't know I think that's kind of what we run into a lot of our sidees that like The evidence is about, you know, to give you context to believe the story and then that sort of becomes sort of, I don't know Like we were talking about a minute ago, like New age, we start to worship, you know the way that it's done or the things behind it and not understand that this all points back to Jesus is real. He was and he's worth having a relationship with. That's the point Well, and the point is it gives context, which it helps us interpret the Bible and read the Bible with greater accuracy. It helps us read theible. It To me, the shroud is just like going to the land of Israel. It's seeing it, walking where he walked, understanding that I can interpret scripture with so much more precision when I understand the culture in which he was performing these miracles when I understand the battles that early Christians were facing. in the book of Acts, it really brings it to life because here's all we need is Jesus in no context or the Bible in no context and we have heresy. and that happens all the time. so these Fings like bring context. I mean, here's the temple tax coin I want you to hold. This is fourteen grams That's very expensive U And this this is Judas would have been paid thirty of those to betray Jesus This is the Tyriion silver Temple tax currency. So if you were paying your temple tax, you had to get it in this currency And I don't know if y' all have ever been ripped off on a currency exchange That's legit. That's very expensive. And so that's fourteen grams. So half shekel was the temple tax, full shekel would have paid for two. Remember Jesus tells Peter to catch a fish and in the mouth of the fish, there's a coin and that's what it would have been, go pay a temple tax And so this is why Jesus overturns the money changers on the South part of the south the southern S contemporary to Christ timee. Whatas his contemporary? Oh, abbsolutely. ye. literally from the twenties This silver? Y Tyrian silver. They would only accept They would only accept the Tyrrian silver t on the wax. Malkirk, a pagan deity, which is Interesting, almost like a baail like figure. That was a Temple tax coin. So there they're holding it. Is that a hand with like a shekel or something It's u What's on it It's like a bird actually. and the is a bird. so It looks like then I have coins of everyone who tried to kill Jesus. By the way, have you ever heldarius? No So This is a Denarius Denari plural, Denariis So that's a Tiberius Denarius. That one cost me a lot more money for my man JR Bizle because it has this nice green hue to it. But I want you to hold that because Remember, I'm taking you into the world of the text. and this is why my book, Jesus Discoveries is so helpelful. when Jesus holds up the Denarius and says, whose likeness is on us? They say Caesar And he says, we'll give Caesar what's Cesar. But the point is give God your life. God's likeness is on you and me. He made us in his image give to Caesar with Caesar, but give God your life. these things. Here's Herod the Great. I just got this one. This is dated to thirty seven. and by the way, it's always in the genitative It's of Herod the Great. It's interesting, it's in the genenitative because all the money ultimately belongs to him. So he so even if we're trading right now, it still belongs to him. That's why it's in that Jenitative. craz. So that's Herod the Great who tried to kill Jesus. We have the wonderful coin of Augustus Again, mentioned again in the infancy narratives, that's an Arius. Now that is very by the way, gold's gone up a lot lately. So staying here hu? Y. So these are what I love about this is These are just parallels to the past My favorite though is the Tiberius Arius where it says Pontif maxim, you know, where on the back it's chief priest And on the front, it's he is the divine Son of God, son of Augustus Unfortunately, we read the gospels far too quickly that when Mark one one opens up in the Greek and it says Jesus is the true son of God not. Tiberius I mean, can you imagine he was signing his death warrant? Becauseuse they would have said, Wait a minute, the Son of God, that's Tiberius And he's saying, No, I'm giving you the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, Son of God. So when you hold a coin like that, you see how powerful and how bold these gospel writers were. See, I'm just guiding you by the hand, using evidident. This is what Jesus and so the point is then, it brings you closer to Christ. You realize these things actually happened. And I get to have a relationship with this man who resurrected and I'm promised thirty nine irrefutable benefits the minute that I say yes to Jesus and salvation. So when I ask like and kind of like wrapping some of this up, like you go We made a joke pre roll and people get mad about we don't share pre roll you know about Davos. You go, you speak at Davos, the World Economic Forum about the resurrection as an academic. The O only person never really do that And then of course, you do Seaan Ryan massive show, you know, Navy Seal seeking Christ and you talk about the resurrection and it's reaching All these people are Why do you think evidence is reaching people that the church is missing? The church has dumbed down our messages and we have forgotten that we are in evidence based faith. Unlike any other religion in the world, we have evidence that backs up our faith. Islam doesn't care about archaeology. They actually ran an oped in the New York Times that the Jewish temple never existed. I mean, they don't care about archaeology. Hinduism doesn't. Buddhism doesn't matter. But what's amazing about the Christian faith is it all comes down to what happened that first Easter morning and that showed that God will love us, He will forgive us And yet he has work for us to do You were mentioning, you know, we wish there were more details. This is why Ephesians one and two says, we're all going to go to graduate school someday in the eternity to figure out what it actually took to redeem us. Jesus is going to keep the scars. I believe that physically And we're going to see him And to see him face to face. You think of first Corinthians thirteen, Revelation twenty two four The Christian wants to see the face of Jesus And that's why I feel like the subtitle is A proropo. theseese findings, they bring us his face into sharper focus, I'll say in our lives.ur. Again, I want ye, that's a blurry. And what's neat about this is I just can't say this enough. We have evidence based medicine, we have evidence based therapy Christian, we have evidence based belief. We believe in content, facts, and a person. And that evidence is life changing How has Jesus changed for you after acquiring all this evidence and like Y perspective before, obviously a lot of us get saved when we're younger or We we read the gospel. we don't have any evidence, but we just believe in our heart because It's compelling versus what you believe now and how you see it today. It has made me as bold as a lion. I am like David right now. running after Goliath. I was full of so much adrenaline pumping through my veins when Jilly and Tet the provroest, you have to say like you're from England of Kings's College Cambridge on the editorial committee of the Financial Times was interviewing me and there was a room full of I mean, you've got the AI people there, you've got all the new what's the Iry I have cryptids on the mind. cryptocurrency. There's a lot of rettilians' people. I've got all of them in the room and I just was so excited and bold. I couldn't I had to calm down. I mean, this is a c thing. When you unlock this truth in your life, it not only sets you free, You become effective and not in a bulldoze way I feel like I'm so much more relaxed now in a faith conversation. becausecause this is why I so badly want to go on Joe Rogan now. He's been given some information and seems fascinated by the shroud, but I want to give him all of the information. It just I'm getting stbed by military guys A lot of men are stopping me saying, I'm coming back to faith because of your contact. And so that's what I'm called to do. And so But again, the only reason I'm really doing it and I don't know how well I'm doing it at this point, but I want to pass on a legacy of faith to my five kids. And if I'm not going to do that, if I'm unsuccessful, I'm going to go work at Home Depot or Lowe's because All I'm the pastor of my home. You know, Jonathan Edwards said every dad is a pastor of his home. And so Really, all of this is just to reach my kids. And so I'll buyem a museum, I'll buy this shroud, whatever it takes for my kids to love Jesus. So they all have come to Christ. They've been baptized at our church, and I want them to have a faith that they own. And so it works in my house. I feelelt like as a father too, I just went to my grandma's funeral. She was one hundred and three and the whole thing was about her faith And at the end My ten year old looks like. I want to buy a. That was that powerful. Yeah it was like man, you know, you You talk about all this stuff all the time and you're like, you hope it connects in a way. obbviously it is. And we live in this fake world right now. Fake food Fake news You know, even the sky, everyone says it's fake, fake clouds. Yeah everythingverything's fake. and we're living in a simulation. Yeah. AI everywhere And now it's like What do you think is are people just their hearts are ready for the truth of Jesus. And I think we should pause about the implications of all this I mean, that's that's the key the implications or Your life matters to God God loves you And he has a massive plan for your life And you need to bow the knee of God and say, yes, Lord, I'm ready That's when life is truly fulfilling. And yous to enter into our story Ch change our story, right? The implications are huge. so it validates everything Jesus taught Everything he said, it validates it. That's what rises and falls. That is what is at stake with this conversation. Yeah. I mean,onecursge that too, because I was reading something recent in Jeremiah. that was so interesting is that all these kids that grow up and go to Christian school, for example and a crazy number of them walk away from their faith when they get to high school and college. and I think Theough The thread that they're saying is that I was told to believe, but not why to believe. Right So this idea of even evidentiary apologetics, this idea of like, here's why We believe, not because we're told we're supposed to or because our parents believe or because Grandma believed or whoever, but because I can testify to the realities of Christ to the realness of Christ. And I think for a lot of folks, the reason I think this is resonating so Amazingly number one New York New York Times and millions of views all over the internet is because again, people want a reason to point back to say, this is why I believe I can put my You know the power of testimony is really what, you know, it's the power of testimony that changes people's lives. It's your story. But in order to have that story, you've got to start somewhere with Jesus. and you got to believe on some level that He is who he says he is He really existed. He walked, He did the things the Bible says. and I mean, I think this is just I mean, you try to believe in legacy if for your kids, I And I would hope that most the parents listening and kids listening would say like Here's a place to start to say that I can I can believe within with within reason within my own reasoning that Jesus was real that he did what he said here's who he says he wasn' and he died and rose again on the third day and and here's what we here's why. And I think that's so powerful because I think We all grew up in eighties and all these things, and I remember going to Christian school and you just you do what you're told. Yeah, you don't you just believe, you don't ask questions. There's not a lot of like, here's why. I think the why is where we're at now with the information at our fingertips and the things that are happening in our world There's a lot of emotional coercion that happens if you grew up in the church. It's almost child abuse level at some of these camps. Yeah. like it's the VBS was awesome. Yeah it's hard. I mean, there's there's I know you're saying. was legitimate conversion, but there's a lot of then there' the We got to teach these kids why it is so fruitful to walk with Jesus because they're all looking for fulfillment. We live in a culture of despair right now. You know, this this shows that my life matters to God. that I will live forever with him. We're going to be given charge over galaxies someday in eternity. I mean, I is not seen can I quote for Corinthians two nine I is not seen nor ear heard, nor has entered into the heart of man, All that God has prepared for them that love him old testament taken it by the way. I mean that's Yeah. I mean, I think that when they get to the evidence when they get to college and when they come out of the emotional experience and then you have professors telling you, well, this's It's a hoax then they They sort of get frustrated and then like you say, they deconstruct walk away from their faith, but you're kind of presenting them with irrefutable evidence And I would I would guess like if you when you encountered Christ and you were skeptical, you You are emotional There's a part of emotion when you finally see the evidence, but You're not coerced into moving it. You can't help but look at it and go, this is real. And then I believe, and then I have an emotional connection to my faith after the evidence. Right. Would you say that's the steps of? Yes, I became a truth addict I met Craig Evans, who's in our audience, who's the finest Jesus scholar in the English speaking world. Let's go Cra. eight hundred publications on Jesus I had never seen the Dead Sea Scrolls. I had never seen the artifacts presented this way And in two thousand six, I stayed in stood in a three hundred person book signing line and I just shook his hand And I said, I want to know you And then I asked to study with him a year later and he took me on as his padawan. I've never looked back. I mean, it has changed my life. And so I think if people are willing to give a little more time to their faith as well, and I don't want to talk down to anyone, but Truth is exciting, and if you'll just be a truth addict It'll set you free and it will put you on a mission for a mission, for a purpose. And so my purpose now is and my only advice is we got to learn to do it faster What I'm learning to do is use these artifacts and like two minute clips like boom and they change people's lives. We don't have to go on and on in a faith conversation. We don't have to beat people over the head with it. It's like, hey, hold this nail. this really happened And I think that's it. I mean, like we We've looking kid nine second attention spans, right? how are you going communicate that? You know, we do a long form thing here and we've had a couple hours of talkking through it, which is amazing Yeah, these younger generations they want that thirty second snippet and they build there nition They' whole worldview off of that. Yeah. I mean, think how crazy that is. how much stuff is out there? people say, Well well, that's the truth. But another way to look at it, I mean, like Abraham Lincoln's second inaugural was seven hundred words. He said it in five minutes and we all rememember it to this day orr taking a Roovelt shot in fourutesess less more a lot. Yeah. Well, and the truth speaks for itself. you know, you just the truth is a lie. you just let it out and it'll do it It's worth fourour gospels less than forty days or for twenty six partarts of twenty six days, twenty six. But I wantanna also say this It took sixteen years to write that book of research and going into all these places. took money, too It took a lot of effort, a lot of nights away from my family in places that I didn't necessarily want to be, but I needed to be to learn it. Yeah. So where do people find that? whereere do they find your book? work you show some really cool videos. I think we're going to include some of that in the episode. just I'm just happy to be a blurry creature member now. amm I blurry enough for you guys?. You're in. I hope I've elevated the blurry game And don't forget about the yeti that drinks alcohol and kills people Yeah notot all stories are bigfot or bad, but ye a lot of them are A lot of them are real. I was bringing my A game and props to the Christian Thinker Society for giving me these stories. I got some freaky ones too. Well, I appreciate it because I think that it's a unique blend belief that is required Um, to kind of want to sit here. But guys like Heiser and a lot of these Theologians have come to see like the full circle of You know, all the weird stories in the Bible and how we can believe them today as Christians and It's cool to like kind of blow the doors off of someome of the uh boxes that we've put God in over the years, and like you said, the church is notorious for doing that in it. If I'm a skeptical person and I want to like look at Jesus from outside of the Bible, what's the first thing you would tell them Read the Jesus discoveries because we only went through three of it Okay because they the Bible may be too intimidating for them.ure first and they need somebody they need somebody to translate it to them. So I would start with the Jesus discoveries. That's why it's written to reach as many as possible. It'll guide you by the hand for on the top ten. And then what what unfortunately I never get to is we've lost I have a whole section in the book. We have lost the notion of Jesus as the most intelligent person who ever lived Time Magazine published the top fifty thinkers of all time, Jesus was not listed So we have to recover the great intellectual tradition of our faith as well. So I think that's another cool story. his life and ministry and resurrection changed the entire trajectory humanity This might not make the show, but On Mother's D, I was like doing some research. I was like Why? idn't Jesus repare to His mother in the New Testament And there was I think a saint had a vision that when he The first person he sees when he comes back is his mom because she would be there crying at the Hill or saying prayers. Like you were just saying there for seven days. Yes The women. He appears to his mom. but they don't include it in the Bible because it was such a deeply relational connection that it would have diminished The relationship he had with his mom. Yeah And I thought, what a What a powerful concept that the Bible is so relational that even just trying to like You know, when people post their love story out on the world, it kind of take diminishes this private thing that happened. And I thought I want to believe that's true. It's interesting one footnote on that. When you look at first Corinthians fifteen, the women are left out When Paul goes through all the appearance tradition and the empty tomb tradition, the women are not mentioned And remember, that's written before the gospels. So it took a lot of boldness for the gospel writers to say, by the way, it was really the women that were the first witnesses. Yeah. Just a little footnote I think his mom would be the most devastating. Oh yeah, withithout a doubt She had the first relationship when Joseph Bro he gets no bones. He was dead already, right? the point was They say Joseph was already dead by the time. so Mary was left. Yeah, she was she was a widow That's what that's the research I was doing because I was just like M'sdayay you know, thinking about it, but I don't know Somet to maybe write a book about it. Yeah. The great we got through like three of the dis. we got to part too. W about the oshuary and the pilot stone and next time. Yeah, it's wow. I think it's incredible. I think that it's cool that all these mainstream podcasters and people out there having you on Tucker and This is the one I really wanted to come on. All guys have to know to everybody. That's blurry. I've been hearing about it. Brian Bailey's in the audience I've been hearing about blurry creatures for years, so you have no idea how excited I was. That's man. That means a lot. We appreciate you being here. Well we're all gl to spend time with. Thank you so much.. Thanks for thaning me, man. Thank forving in studio. here's the book way better. Try not to damage any of your items. Here's the book again. Check it out.ll put a link in the show notes and we'll be on our website as well. Click it, get it and learn some things. So thank you And I'll send the Bigfoot story for the show notes as well because I was email that. I love it. All right. All right, thanks, man. Thank you guys. All right, than you