Reflecting on Hope and Future Goals

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So sometimes on this podcast our podcast guests have difficulty, and that's happening today. We don't have a podcast guest, or do we ? So Ross, you're the producer of Paul Politics. I've I've found myself roped into the studio on the other side of the microphone for a change. And I was gonna say you're not someone who loves to be in front of cameras, right? Uh yeah, I definitely find it quite uh anxiety inducing. So I think we should start with how we've met, because we've not known each other that long. But um about uh eight months ago. Uh I think I'd just launched my leadership campaign and I got a DM direct message on Instagram. I have to say there's no way of saying sounding this without sounding arrogant, so I'm just gonna say it. I get a lot of DMs from a lot of people I don't know offering me a lot of things. Um but yours was particularly phrased in a way that kind of grabbed my attention. Um I can't remember the story, but I think I might have even said no the first time and then you might have gone with another message. There was definitely hesitance there. Um and I yeah, I think a lot of people don't know this, like even in my personal life when I talk about working with you, it's like, oh, like how long how long have you known Zach? And we hadn't ever met before the podcast came about. I mean there's two levels to it. I think the first one is that I saw you well I I heard you on a very long commute home back to where I live and I heard you on a podcast and was just immediately like, oh, there's somebody who's genuinely answering a question. And I hadn't really heard a politician do that before. And I think that's a really strange that's a really strange phenomenon. I think that going back, I wish I could experience that again. I wish I could hear you speak for the first time again, because it is like such a wonderful moment. And making the podcast, I've got to experience that so many times through other people as well. Lots of people are still hearing you for the first time and going , Oh, that's a politician actually answering a question. And it sh the bar is so low. Like it shouldn't be that way that before I take the compliment too much. Yeah, well like that's that's kind of it. It's it's like uh there's so much deflection in politics. So, you know, I was on my way home from on this very long commute back to my one year old and my few months old baby just not just not feeling hope at all and listening to you on that podcast. I can't even remember what you were talking about. I said do you know what made you switch that on though? Because I always think about people who have never engaged with the Green Party before. What's the first time that they're like, oh I'm gonna listen to a Green Party politician? Or is it that you liked the podcast? For a long time I'd I've been very interested in economics and just capitalism in in general, and uh Grace Blakely was talking about you quite a lot. So I think it was Grace Blakely that I was like, oh, if she's if she's talking about this politician, and she's talking about it with such conviction, like this guy's really good . Um I I think that was quite inspiring to me because for so long we'd all just felt so dejected that there wasn't a politician that had our backs. So for Grace to be like, we should all get behind this guy, I was like, okay, go on then. We'll check him out. I love it. I mean I loved Grace anyway, but I didn't know that she played such a pivotal role in bold politics. That's really cool. Yeah. And I'm glad we've had her on as a guest. I don't know if she knows that though, how pivotal she was. I don't think I've told her either. Yeah. So I listened to you and I felt that hope and I went home and basically just wrote a a direct message to you. But it was also an idea that I'd had for a long time. I'd been making podcasts for a long time, and I know that it's like the most engaged media. When people tune in, it's part of their habit. They listen on a commute, they're really like building that trust with the host, whatever you're listening to. If you listen to the same thing every week. I I spoke to someone yesterday who said, I sp likeike ha I hear conversations with my favorite podcast hosts more than I hear conversations with my friends. And you can imagine the sort of trust that builds between uh a host and an audience. I'm like surely if politici ans want to get to know the electorate or want the electorate to get to know them, this is a perfect medium for it. And I totally totally appreciate that like it takes time . Um, and we've worked out a way to do this and make it as most like the most time efficient thing possible. That was code for Ross makes me film six episodes in a row, so I sit in this room for sometimes six, seven hours. And I love it. Yeah. And I I completely get that aspect of it. But there is a way to do production that makes it really and like obviously you are the Juracell bunny in in terms of being able to just turn up and you get refreshed by talking about different things. So when we have someone talking about the health service, you'll get energized from that. And then you'll go on and talk about housing and then you'll talk about inequality. And each time it's like a new experience for you. I just see you get charged and charged, charged. By the end of the day, I'm completely cooked. And you're like, right, I'm off to go do news night or whatever. I'm like, ha ha, where does the energy come from? But like you are literally fueled by those kinds of convers ations, whether it's with you know one of the hosts of loose women or with someone who has got like a a very human story, like you just you are energized by that. So now I think that's it's it perpetuates it's like the podcast is like it's fed by your energy. And I think the thing you were really right about, and I'll come back to what I mean by that, is the amount of people who stop me in the street who start talking to me like we're already midway in a conversation and I think it's because they've been listening to a podcast or they're used to kind of a dialogue we're having and I think it's called parasocial relationship. I love that. But I think your message basically said, have you thought about launching a podcast? And this story would be easy for me to go. I saw that brilliant straight away, but I think I actually said to you, no, I'm running to be leader of a party and I think I'm about to be leader of a party. The idea of doing a podcast at the same time seems completely unmanageable, and you just made the kind of steps towards it and the reasons for it so compellingly. It's important to say here too, it's not that you had no experience either, you'd worked on the rest of politics, you'd work with Robert Peston. And I suppose I was interested too and it's my question for you now, in someone who I saw as like working in very central spaces, going I want to work with a politician who's very explicitly left wing . Um like my politics are left wing . The reason that I worked uh on those shows was because they're massive. Right. And I think it was also a different time in politics. Like there wasn't really anywhere to look in terms of like hope. There was no one saying we want to put workers' rights first above big business. Um well th there were people saying that it was the Labour Party and they didn't do it. Um so I think you can do a job that like I'm really passionate about the medium. I'm really passionate about storytelling. And you also need to know how th other people are operating. Just because my My politics weren't directly being spoken about in these shows. They also weren't a politics of hate. Like, I would I would never have let something editorially through that was like activ ely, you know, derogator y towards a community or or or anything like that. But you know, we would have a lot of like Labour politicians coming on and talk about uh you know their plans to improve whatever. But those things never manifested because they were always watered down by big business. So when I'm in that space, like you have enough of these conversations with these politicians who at the beginning are quite convincing, but as you go on and on, and like one of the things that I really liked about Labour w w they would they were talking about this kind of, you know, work from home policy as part of their make work pay um bill, the workers' rights bill that Angela Reina put together. And you know, one of the m amazing things for me in that bit would be the the the right to work from home. Right. And like that would have given me like the ability to see my kids, like the amount of bed times I missed because I was in the office. I'm like that's a policy that I can get behind. Right. The problem is it never manifests. And I think so that is the next thing. So then you laid out to me perfectly what a podcast could do and it made absolute sense to me. So we went for a Wagamamas in Westfield, which is hilarious because Westfield's probably the last place either of us would go. I was so yeah, I mean I was so uh so hesitant about like w where to meet like the potential leader of the Green Party. I was like, I d what's the like the the most like vegan like community led space I can find? And we landed on a wagon was in Westfield. I think it's so often it was just like wherever I was that day I probably was doing some community event in Stratford that was just an easy place to be. You came to you cycled over to me 'cause that was where my my train came in. Oh, okay, that does make sense. And like that's you. Like that like no other politician would have like even remotely entertained that. It would have been like, I'm here, meet me And instantly, I don't think I've told you this, but within a minute, I was like, okay, there's something here. And I think it was you were really honest straight away that you weren't that into the Green Party. And I think it's fair to say you are into the Green Party now, but that time, um, I think you were basically like, I don't want my children to grow up in a country where Nigel Farage is prime minister. 100%. And I think that's the path we're on and I think you're my best shot at stopping that. And I just love the way you presented it, not as a business opportunity, not as something that would further my career necessarily, although I think it has done that, but actually just purely as there's something in the country I need to stop right now and I think you're the person who can do that, so I'm gonna do anything I have in my power to make you do it. Yeah, totally. And I think so those are the two that's the kind of two levels to why I wanted to to pitch this to you. Like firstly it was like why doesn't a politician have their own podcast? Like this is the way to speak to people? This is the way to align yourself with the people you want to be seen with. This is the way to reach the masses every single week with good messages. And like the format of the podcast has changed over time. We've made it less um divisive. People really love how inclusive it feels. We have people on the challenge you and that ask you questions and that don't vote for the Green Party, but on the whole it's a very respectful space. We didn't plan for that at the beginning. And I think that's one of the ways that it's like evolved really wonderfully. And when you say mass, we should say we're getting over a million listens a month. And so that's the kind of professional level of it. And then the personal aspect of it is that like That dejection in politics, that that lack of hope that was there for so long was just wearing away at me. And like I always wanted to be a dad. And I think having kids really tapped into the fact that there was no hope for their future. And that made me feel like a failure. That made me feel really sad. Because I was like, the way that politics is now, the way that we're moving as a country , I just don't want my kids to grow up in that space. I just I want them to grow up in a space where they can feel accepted, where they have access to human rights, where they have opportunity and community spaces and all of the things that we've just seen stripped away over the last 10, 20, 30 years. And this was an op this felt like an opportunity to at least move in the direction. This podcast could have been a total flop. Like nobody like it was it was a gamble for both of us. You put out a podcast and it flops the day after you've just won an 85% mandate as the in the leadership election. And then you get an absolutely pants podcast that goes out that nobody listens to. Like that's that's a huge risk for you. Well, the Tesim don't give us two stars. They gave us two stars. What did they say? It was um nauseating left-wing populism. Love that so much. I immediately screenshot it and put it on the header of our YouTube page. But actually that review really informed my leadership. I shouldn't give the Times that much credit. But there was something that they wrote in it which I just thought, oh wow, we're just living in different paradigms. Which is they said that I wasn't a leader because I was sat there listening to Ash Sarkar, who was our first guest that we put out, I think. Um I think Zoe Gardner was the first guest we recorded with, but we were like, we're gonna swap them around. And they said that I wasn't a leader because I was just sat there listening to her and not talking enough. And I was just like, wait, that's literally what my model of leadership is, like to listen to smart people with expertise and thoughts that might not be the exact same but have different perspectives and take what I agree with, reject what I disagree with and kind of also amplify people. And just reading that Times review, I was like, ah, okay, they're not used to this model of leadership or this way of doing politics. Yeah, I think when we first stepped into the studio, I was really like pleasantly surprised with how you engaged in the conversation because we didn't do any pilots, we just jumped straight in, managed to blag some of the best experts in politics onto the podcast. I was just really I was just really pleasantly surprised to see you having a conversation and genuinely just treating these moments as like briefings with people that you would want to meet anyway but sharing that information and sharing that perspective with the audience. And that's a really powerful thing because one, it's it's you being vulnerable because we don't see politicians be vulnerable ever. And then two, it's it's really reinforced to me that we have put great or there's so many great orators out there, people who can speak really clearly, and we seem to put them into positions of power, but we don't put great communicators into positions of power um often. And a great communicator is a two-way thing. And equally with a podcast, it's a two-way thing. Nobody wants to listen to a you know uh just a soliloquy for I mean some people might want to listen to that. I mean it does happen on LBC. Yeah, but I think s a lot of the best podcasts, the most successful podcasts, are that they just feel like a conversation. So the listeners in a place where it's like slightly inconvenient, like a commute, or maybe they don't enjoy cooking and they've got to make dinner for their families and they pop on a podcast and it's people who have really good chemistry and that brings them into that room and creates a conversation they feel like they're part of. They're not actively engaged in it, but in their head they're probably replying to some of the points that are being made. And that's what really makes a good podcast and it's also what really makes a good politician and a good leader, I should say. Um it's that two way street and we need people not in positions of power but in positions of representation. And you can only represent your community if you're listening to them. So you showing that you're listening on a podcast, the the times coming out and saying like this is one of the wild things that they said in the article as well. They said, show us your balls. I I they said that in the article. I think I only skim read it. I was like, what why are they asking ? What what? Um that's a different kind of podcast. Yeah . But like they wanted this like brash, outlandish, you to come out swinging, it's this, this, and this. And actually, you came in with this like we created this beautiful space where you're having conversations. Well I was gonna say that's two things that you've done that like within that first month which I absolutely loved. So one I think when we first met you said you were gonna write scripts for me and as someone who's really busy I was really appreciative of that. But in the first podcast, what I found was uh I think I probably read the first question you'd suggested and then just got lost in the conversation and then afterwards thought you were gonna be bothered by that as a producer. But you were like, no, no, that's fine, you don't need to look at my questions. And then the second podcast, I didn't look at your questions. And by the third podcast, you just didn't write any questions or script anymore. You just you were totally fine with that. And that's how we always do the podcast is I just have the person in front of me go, What do I want to ask? And then just genuinely have a conversation. But the control you relinquish to do that. I mean it makes sense. It's my conversation, but I don't think there'd be many producers who would trust for a politician to go I trust them to make a good uh podcast and I'm just gonna focus on the technicals in the edit, which is amazing. Yeah. You're listening with lots of different ears when you're making a podcast because there's part of it where you're just making sure that nothing goes wrong. And then like a lot of the time, it's not until the edit that I'm really thinking about how to turn it into like a story. And actually, we you're such a natural speaker and conversationalist that a lot of it just w there's not really any editing involved. I should say though I'm in danger of like taking away how much you do do like there's plenty of times where I go down side quests or things go out of date more often and you manage to put the conversation together and make it flow fashionful. I also think that is like relinquishing control it's like any decision, not doing something is still a decision. Right. So relinquishing control is still an active choice in the production process. So allowing you to be comfortable and do it in the way that you want to do is gonna create a more authentic conversation so that that person cooking their dinner is gonna feel like it' s uh a real life interaction and that's what you want to do. Like, and when I work with anyone, I'll always want them to either know a lot about the subject they're talking about, have researched it themselves, or come with a genuine curiosity. And those things are authentic uh feelings. Yeah, too. And like that's what you want to capture. If I write you an eight page document that you sort of skim read and you're looking through your notes while you're speaking. It's it's never gonna c it's ne it's never gonna like sound great, is it? For sure. And then the second thing you did was the kind of initial agreement, although it wasn't, you know, a locked-in agreement, was that we were gonna have some right wingers on. Uh some pretty awful people I think you suggested, where I was just like, I don't want to talk to that person. And you were just a bit like, well let's start with some you know, easy conversations and we'll get there. And by a month in, I think both of those were just like, actually, people are really enjoying the fact that we're not just shouting at each other and we're not just arguing. People are really enjoying the depth and nuanced conversations that don't necessarily happen with someone you disagree with because you're both just trying to win the discussion. And as you said, that doesn't mean that people come on who I always agree with or they always agree with me. But we've deliberately not gone for what could have probably got easier and quicker clicks, which is just me disagreeing with people and not having arguments or winning over people or vice versa. And I was just really pleased when you were just like, yeah, we we don't need to do that. We have something that's really successful that people are really enjoying. And if people want to see me with argue with people, there's a million other places they can go do that. Like I'm doing it every day. But actually in this room in these four walls, it's about like complexity and nuance and sensitivity. Yeah. And I think y you you also took to that really well and it's something like most of the stuff on the podcast just happened really naturally and it just created itself in a lot of ways. It was like the void in politics that needed to be filled, which was a politician listening to people and you just saw it in all the comments. Like I was I love I I I literally read every single comment on the podcast. I love reading the podcast. And and even when that it's constructive, even when they're like dunking on me because my thumbnails aren't good enough, like I'll go away and learn how to do it for the Um and you know, we we've always taken the feedback on board, but like one of the top things that we saw was that people were really commenting about how much they love h seeing you listen. And we actually put up um put up a clip of Sean Faye and you didn't speak in it at all. Right. And everyone was just like, when was the last time that you just saw someone hand over the mic and let the other person speak without without commenting, without without challenging it. Like it's just it was I didn't even put the question in there. It was just Sean Faye like just dropping absolute bars. Amazing. Amazing. That's a great episode. Yeah. And like I think that's that's the sort of um the disjoint between what the Times was saying we want to see Zach Balanski come out swinging, um versus what people wanted, which was to see their politicians listening, to see their politicians learning. You know, it's just like Einstein's metric of intelligence is like changing your views on things based on new information if you're if you're provided with a more reliable source. Like people want to see politicians go, look, I don't know everything. I'm always learning. I and I and I want to learn as well. Like there should be that that action involved in a desire to learn. But far too often we see politicians who we know have no experience in that space talking with absolute clarity and then in six weeks they ha the it turns out they were completely wrong. Yeah. And I hear about Labour a lot when there's these U-turns and people go fair play to Labour, like they got they got it wrong, but they were they they they've they've admitted they got it wrong and they've changed the policy or they've or they've they've gone back and like whyy do do we wh we talk about U-turns as a bad thing? And it's like, because you shouldn't wait to be called out. Like it shouldn't get to the point where you have to U-turn. Like politicians should be constantly learning all the time and listening , not only going, look, I'm always learning when they've been called out by the press and the pressure's like pushing down on them. I know people have really enjoyed, I think Zoe Gardner's an obvious example of this where I've taken the briefing, which is for pod cast, and then they've seen me a few days later be on TV and repeat something that they've heard me learn in real time and that's I mean it's fun in terms of they're really serious issues, but I think it's fun for people to hear the kind of briefing you've had and and how you've taken that. Yeah, I mean one of the most beautiful things actually, and I've never told you this, was that um after we got noodles, like I just said a few things to you, um and you've done this on the podcast a few times as well. Like I'll tell you about my day, an interaction with my kids, a problem with my childcare. Uh I'll say I'm interested in this guest because of XYZ, and you'll you'll then bring that up on the podcast and be like, oh, I I've heard this. And like it really gives me a sense of like my my voice matters. And like when people talk to you, you actually take it on board and you actually like platform other people's issues whenever you get the opportunity. Like it's not coming from some agency, some think tank. It's like you'll listen to people and then you will bring it up on like some of the most watched television shows, you know, or the most listen ed to podcasts, and that's a personal experience, but I know other people have experienced that too. So I've got three I think favourite moments from working with you or times we've worked together. One is when we had Doris in from United Voices of the World, it was just amazing. And I think we wanna do that kind of thing again for sure, which is uh for those who haven't seen the episode, go back and check it. But Doris uh is a hotel supervisor who was part of the first women who went on strike and won their case and we made a very deliberate decision to we've loved the celebrities that have come on and we've loved the experts to come on, but actually to have an expert in some their own lived experience of of how they work. The second, which is the opposite of that, was having Gary Lineker on for the Christmas episode was just epic. And he's a dude anyway, but it just felt like we've hit wherever podcast wanted to get to. That we've got someone with Gary's platform on having a genuinely interesting conversation and challenging me as well. That same day, we had a Guardian journalist Simon Hattenstone as well in the foyer who was interviewing me and interviewing Gary and watching the podcast. And I think we had like a by-election coming up in the like a few days at local. It just felt like everything was coming together and it was a little bit too much. But also we were all just holding it and it was working really, really well. I should say obviously as well as working with you on the podcast a huge shout out to all the Green Party team who I work with regularly in my leadership role who do phenomenal work. But my single biggest kind of memory view is actually being in Calais, where we went to Calais to meet people who were on the move, and we were there for a couple of days, and it's just an very intense experience. Aside from that, though, I think it was around about that time too that you told me you were gonna quit your job um and do the podcast or do working for bold politics as a brand full-time. Yeah. And me being really worried about that, and you just saying with absolute certainty, this is what I want to do , this is what I want to do for my kids' futures. And I think you said to me respectfully actually it wasn't about me at all or what I wanted, it was about you recognising what this could and needed to be and you just putting full faith and confidence in this project. Yeah, no tot,ally . And I think back to that period when I was working my other job, a full-time job, doing this, which is a full-time job as well, and still being a present dad to my kids , like just not knowing where I found the time. Um but it was I feel like when you're working towards something that you actually just you're I see people every day who talk about you and talk about you with such positiv ity and such hope that it's it's like that thing where you're having the conversations that gives you energy. Like that's what gives me energy, like being able to put that message out there to as many people as possible and provide a sense that it doesn't have to be this way like en masse. But also like the like for instance going meeting Doris or going to Calais and speaking to people who are living in the most destitute conditions and having those conversations. Like those are perspectives that I never would have been able to have in any other sort of plot in my life . Like that there's no way that I would be exposed to to those kinds of people. Um and I think that's a really powerful thing. Like that's like seeing the world and and learning from other people's experiences , it shapes your politics. And I think so much of our policymakers and our leaders haven't done those things. They haven't spoken to those people and I just feel really like blessed that working with you has provided the opportunity to meet those people and and learn from them and see firsthand the the hardships that people are facing because we see firsthand every single day how much they're demonized, but we don't actually hear from them and that's why they're scapegoated, because they don't like they don't get to have a platform, they don't get to have their voice amplified. So I think one of the things we really wanted to do on the podcast, kind of from the start, I like always had this kind of like two-stage strategy, and like this is very like inside of football, but like I I just I always wanted to sort of no disrespect to any of the the guests that we've had, but I I always wanted to get guests with big platforms on the show. People that I wanted to meet anywhere, and I d what I know you wanted to meet and have briefings from. But it was always important to me that we highlighted the stories of everyday people as well. And I think we have been able to do that once we built the platform up, we can then have those episodes where you know the algorithm might not favour it but it's the right thing to do. We have a platform and we should be using it to talk about those things. And I also love that you then developed your skills as well to get Oh I'm that was so fun. And like such a brilliant challenge as well because it was just like, oh we we need need a a to make video and I'd you know, I'd not really written a script ever before and then suddenly I'm writing the script to to dress up the leader of a political party like in Dickensian attire and it goes on to raise hundreds of thousands of pounds and I'd never made anything like that and I wrote, directed and produced it, and it was just such an amazing experience. And you know, having done some of the like party political broadcast now as well and they're going on like BBC One and ITV and Prime Slots and I just feel so so grateful to have had those opportunities. And the live shows as well. The live shows have been great. How amazing is it when we do the live shows and 'cause you can you can get a million players or get a million followers and it's still just a number on a screen, it's still just pixels. But when you go and you see people who actively whoops. is not turned his phone off. Um but when you go and you meet these people and they're there and they're fans of the show, that's such a such a beautiful thing. And even though they don't know who I am. The'yre not they're not no one talks to me about it and it's I love seeing them sit there having bought a ticket and watched this show um and in real life like that's such a but you obviously experienced that on such Oh no, it's the same thing though, and it's lovely. I mean the people we work with, so like in my fundraiser, Cody and Amanda, who were um the um the other actors in it uh I'm trying to remember who filmed it, was it Sam Neklin? Uh we had Matt O'Brien film it. And Matt O'Brien who filmed it, uh Jeremy Clancy who did the running video. Like we're working with these amazing creatives and the fact also how passionate you are about expanding the pool of creatives we work with and particularly at the local level as well. So we're using people from the local community. Definitely. I've really enjoyed this conversation, but actually there's a hidden agenda behind this conversation too, which is from the moment I kind of became leader of the Green Party and we launched this podcast, I think I counted it some like 12 or 13 book publishers kept asking me if I wanted to write a book. And almost in parallel to our first conversation together, I kept replying to them. In fact, I'm sorry, I stopped replying to them at some point because it was just becoming a full-time job writing to bub publishers to say, I don't want to write a book. I've only just become leader of a party. I think I've got chapter one of the book. And actually I think the next chapters are going to be really, really exciting. Um and I think you were aware that these conversations were happening and I think you kind of agreed with me uh that it was too soon for me to write a book. But then we came up with an amazing idea. So we are writing a book. It's coming out in September. And it's a it's bold politics with Zach Pol ansky. Hope is here, it's all of us. And it's the podcast's book, essentially. I think the th really powerful thing about it is that it's basically all of the contributors that have been on the podcast. They've brought so much experience and knowledge and stories to the show. Not just the celebrity guests, but also the you know, the people that we we we've platformed in their human stories. Um and the book is essentially like a physical manifestation of hope that has been born off the back of the podcast and it's and what I really love is I think it's balanced all of these things. So it's not a book that I've written or is about me, but it's a book about platforming the people that I've met and been inspired by with my voice intertwined in there too. And Penguin, who were publishing it, also worked on uh Greta's uh Thumbberg's collaboration book and in some ways it's a similar style. It's a collaborative book of people that I think are interesting that we have platformed. And very much also you're a very strong character in that book in terms of your voice, having been someone who's met me, who's met these people. And also as a human being in society right now that's worried about the rise of the right and about the future of your kids. And so what I love about this book is, you know, I'm sure I will have a book one day in the future that's about my journey and the party's journey. And actually this isn't that book because it's not time for that book. But what it absolutely is time for, and that I think is gonna be brilliant, is to think about the state of the country right now, messages of hope, how things can change. And really a book that's not about a book of authority, but a book of curiosity. So what have people saying on this podcast and actually what else needs to happen in this country and not every idea I have to agree with, not every idea certainly is mine, but actually my thoughts about other people's ideas. Yeah, absolutely. You know, there's some there's some brilliant work in there from Zoe Gardner , um and then like lots of uh anecdotes about our time in Calais and the people that we met there and like interviews with people who are actually living in the camps in Calais. Um there's some great stuff from Michaela Loach talking about um you know how we're all interconnected and Michaela was such an amazing guest. Oh everything she said like every time I speak to Michaela Loch, I'm just left feeling so empowered and so much more knowledgeable. Just absolut I I don't know if you remember, but she um at one point I said America and she very like gently but gracefully corrected me and said United States. And honestly whenever I talk about uh the United States I always have McKay in a moment, 'cause I always take a moment ago in the United States. I mean I think I probably um tripped up a couple of times, which case I apologize, but you know, we're fallible human beings, not not perfect. Yeah. And like I had a similar one where I was I asked her a question, we're like, what as privileged people, how can we lift up, you know, those who are more marginalized in our communities? And she she just said to me, like, oh, um, actually like you've got a lot more to learn from those people like you need like as soon as we s we s we need to switch it around it's not about lifting other people up it's about knowing that we're all connected and that you know we're just approaching uh you know, the climate crisis, it's affecting us way less than it has affected uh people in the global south. And the rise of the far right, like there's lots of people around the world who we would see as like marginalized communities, but actually we have so they have so many more community-led tools that they've developed that we should be learning from to deal with all the things that we're worried about in society. Um so it's not about lifting other people up, it's about knowing that we're all interconnected. So leaving that with uh Michaela, like like after that conversation, I was just like my entire perspective on the world had changed. Um and then there was also uh George Monbaio, who is such a beautiful human being. And I phoned him up on like a Tuesday and he sort of said like hello. And I was like, Oh, George, like we're we're supposed to be talking for the for the bold politics book. Are you still alright to chat? And he was like, Oh oh, uh no one's put this in my diary and I was like, Oh um I mean do you ha do you have time? And he was like, oh uh Yeah, yeah, okay, I've I've got a bit of time. I was like, okay, great. And then he just the first question I asked him was just like, uh, why is there no environmental justice w without social, economic and racial justice? And he was like, like, this is gonna take a much longer time than that this is not just a quick answer. And he ended up giving me the most elaborate , beautiful respons es, like creating these images of like how we can have a better society. And we spoke for like forty-five minutes to an hour. He gave me these very well-ougthht-out answers. I say George. And I was just like, what a beautiful human. And um afterwards I was kind of like transcribing the interview. I was like, I just need to check something. Like how old George Mombayo was when Thatcher came into power. And it turned out it was his birthday. Oh wow. He like like the reason he didn't have time supposedly didn't have time for me was because it was his birthday. And yet he still gave me like an hour of his time. I thought you meant his birthday was the day Thatcher came to power, right? No. Oh okay, the day you spoke. The day we spoke on the phone. That was so lovely. He it was his birthday and he'd given me Oh thank you, George. The most beautiful thing. But then also like there's loads of things from the podcast that you know we will have enjoyed at the time. Things that have like you can't remember everything. Yeah, yeah. Um so being able to put some of those quotes down that we've had from the guest s actually on paper in a physical copy of something is also a really nice thing to like hold and like go back to and we wanted to make something that was evergreen in the same way that when you listen to any episode of the podcast , it's still relevant and we try we we sometimes use stuff in the news to like spring water into a subject, but on the whole we try and keep it pretty evergreen so that people can tune in and then go back and listen to the entire back catalogue. And what I really love is we know that lots of people who aren't Green Party members listen to this podcast, which is really important to me that we broaden out. And that's why people often ask me why don't you have more Green Party guests and obviously we had Chloe Swabrick for co leader of New Zealand Greens, he's phenomenal. You should definitely listen to that episode. And I should stop saying one of my favourite episodes because it's like having favourite children. But the episode with Hannah Spencer, who was Hannah Spencer, the plumber and plasterer then. She's now Hannah Spencer, MP Plumber and Plasterer, I the' rightm honourable. Um but to feel the shift in that conversation. Like that was an incredible moment ago. We haven't abused this platform as and we've not made it Green Party propaganda. Obviously it's full of Green Party ideas and I'm the host, so it's a pretty Green Party, but actually we do platform lots with other ideas too. But actually this is a moment where we're going, no, this is a moment where whether you support the Green Party or not, Hannah Spencer is someone we need to get to Parliament and it was amazing to see people respond to that. And I'm really hoping the book can do that too , which is uh it's not a Green Party book. It's a book which is about ideas and ideas that everyone, you know, can and should engage in. Absolutely. And like I that moment with Hannah was like particularly such a beautiful moment to me because I know that there has never been a political leader in the UK with their own podcast and therefore there's never been a situation in a by-election or in a general election where you've seen a podcast between a party leader and a candidate MP, and just to be able to have that conversation and share the stories that you did, which was so powerful. You know, you guys just we were all in tears in the studio when she was talking about her greyhounds and just being able to put that to the voters and be like, this is this is the person that you could vote in as your MP. And like we like nobody can take sole credit for uh Hannah's win other than Hannah . Like it was very much a community people led campaign and that's what won. But I just think like that space that had never existed on a campaign before. And being able to provide that opportunity for people to get to know the person that's going to represent them was it was such a moment of pride for me because I was we we'd scraped away that veneer of politics and just shown the human and the human behind Hannah Spencer is such a beautiful person and you know the plumber, the dog lover, like there's all these levels to her as a human, and we were able to show that. But we were also able to show like what kind of a leader you are, and how you listened to her, and how you spoke to her, and like just provided that space. Like it's gonna be a lot of MPs out there who were terrified of of their whip of their party leader and wouldn't be able to have that kind of conversation with them without tripping over themselves. You'd create a space where she was just having the best time and like, you know, it was was vulnerable and that translated to the voters. I think what's gorgeous about that conversation, which maybe people don't know this context but could probably work it out, in a by-election, you are exhausted. I don't care how much energy you have, and I'm someone who prides myself on having lots of energy. Hannah is she just does not stop going. But I think I remember both of us sitting down and just being like, oh, we're sitting down, this is unusual. And like the vulnerability of being exhausted and having a conversation that I think both of us knew in fact I don't think I know both of us and the the entire team including you knew how important that conversation was and what a moment we were having in that room. And it's just beautiful that that's now captured, you know, for for memory. But also just how relaxed it was as well. Like you just like m I just walk into short at some point with sausage rolls. Two vegan sausage rolls. And just pop them down like you know, w w everyone's been on the campaign trail for for weeks now. Like no one's eaten that morning. Here's a vegan sausage troll. Like it was it was such a beautiful space. I'm really glad that we did it and I'm really grateful that the the podcast exists. I agree. It's wonderful. So Bob Politics, Hope is here, it's all of us. Uh book coming from Penguin. When can people expect it? Uh it's coming out in September, and it's going to be available in all good bookshops and we want to uh get it in as many local bookshops as possible and support them. And I suppose my final question is starting where we began and it's actually with you on a much more personal level. Because you're someone who doesn't love being in front of a camera, you don't necessarily love um the spotlight. But actually we made this joint decision that actually this is your book. How are you feeling about you know, this is a a major step into into the the spotlight in that way? Yeah, I I think I've I I feel I feel very comfortable and I feel like it's a it's a powerful message and there are times when you can like I I think you said it as well, like you actually don't like politics. Like you you actively don't want to get involved in politics. I was introduced the other day by a presenter who disagreed with me, it was a live show of another podcast, and they said something like we're all here because we love politics for politics' sake, so it doesn't matter whether we agree or disagree with the ideas. I kinda came on stage already irritated because I I don't love politics for politics' sake. I find it intensely annoying actually. It's just there's things that need to get done and the politics get in the way of that sometimes. I mean there's the the age old saying like uh if you want to be a politician that should immediately bar you from ever becoming a politician like you actively don't want to get involved in politics but you do feel this complete um drive to represent people . Like you're like, why I I couldn't do anything else. I have to I'm and you know you're a good communicator, so you're like, I'm going to use the skills that I have to get the message out there that it doesn't have to be this way, that there is hope. And I think I'm finding myself in that position now where I'm like, really , really would rather just be at home with my kids , like not doing any of this and just having a a nice quiet life. But what does their future look like if I don't get this book out, if I don't do everything in my power to create a better society, to create a society. Just show people that there can be communities, that there can be society. And you know, I want my kids to grow up in that space that's inclusive and, you know, community led and where there's opportunities and where it's it's green and it's joyous. Like there's n like where's