Empty Homes and Future Solutions

A spectacle far beyond your imagination . Be amazed . Be moved . Be there . For an experience that will stay with you forever . Disney's The Lion King. At London's Lyceum Theatre. Book now at thelionking.co.ukK M Ms for Marvel take one I am Wolverine that was super thanks terrible where's the confidence? Where's the bravado? Come on, like I am Wolverine. Wait, I thought you were gonna be Deadpool. Well, I am. I don't get it. Is your superpower disappointing me . Scan your pack to win heroic Marvel prizes. M M's in Marvel. It's more fun together. See full terms and conditions when you scan . Housing is a huge issue. It's an issue outside of election time , but it becomes really present when politicians are asking for your vote. We know that housing has been an issue in this country for a long time, from the lack of social housing to rip-off rents, to the fact that it's almost impossible for many people to get on the housing market. We know people need safe, accessible, and affordable homes. That's before we even get to the conversation about the outrageousness that goes on in far too many councils across this country where people are living in damp and moldy homes or even worse conditions. Who better then to chat to on the eve of the election than the amazing housing campaigner Quayjo Twenabua? With local elections tomorrow, housing is a huge issue. I'd say it's the issue of this local election campaign. So Quay Joe to have you in the studio feels like beyond uh relevant and important, and I've wanted you to come on for a long time, so I'm glad we made it work in the schedule. I'm someone who works in politics, I do a lot around housing and I'm also online a lot, so I know exactly who you are. If someone is living under a rock or doesn't quite know what you do, um you came from well in fact do you want to tell your story? Who are you, Quay J? Yeah, so I I mean I was sort of given the title of um a housing campaigner, but about five or six years ago I decided to talk about the subject and go around my estate and talk to people up and down the country who were quite frankly living in absolutely slum conditions and often paying extortionate rents, especially in the private rented sector, who were sick and tired of having to be subject to that. And I mean, it started with my own story as a child experiencing homelessness, living in social housing, growing up in social housing. And then when we finally did receive permanent social housing, and that was after being told we would have to move to Luton whilst I was studying for my A levels and my younger sister was studying for her GCSEs. That accommodation was falling to bits too. And my dad uh became ill. He was diagnosed with stage one esophageal cancer that progressed quite rapidly um over the space of a year. Uh we were living with issues like mice, cockroaches, damp, mold, a bathroom which uh wasn't fit for use, a kitchen which wasn't fit for use, um, and his health very rapidly declined in and amongst those conditions and we had been complaining about it. And then he passed away and things went from bad to worse. I remember on the day of his funeral a ceiling collapsed, um, directly above where his hospital bed was actually. And that was in February of the year. And no one actually came out until October of the year to take the ceiling down. And when they did, they didn't put one back up until the January the following year. And by that point I had become absolutely sick and tired with having to to beg for what I thought was a bare minimum. So I went to social media, I took pictures and videos of my accommodation, expects expected to receive loads of abuse about it, was blown away when that wasn't the case, and actually people were reaching out saying they're going through similar and have been for many, many years. And I decided um to then reach out to news outlets. Um ITV BBC came down to film and that's really where my journey began in terms of campaigning. I then travelled the country going into homes, shaming landlords and providers into doing what they're contractually responsible for doing but weren't doing at the time, and in a way, sort of built a name through doing that. Aaron Powell I mean you've done an incredible job. And uh I know sometimes when guests come on here, even some of our more famous people, they're not used to sitting down with politicians. But actually I know this is normal for you. Like you've started with housing minist ers, I think even prime ministers, right? Yes, yes. I mean it's it's it's weird. I think the first Secretary of State that I met was Michael Gove under the Conservatives. Uh I've met Keir Starmer, I've sat down with Angela Rayner, I've met housing ministers. I've met quite a few politicians now and had quite a few conversations. And it's across the political spectrum from all four corners of Westminster, really, because one thing that I was very clear about is regardless of my own political, personal political beliefs, this issue of housing is far beyond that. And what I care about is who is genuinely wanting and has a credible plan to address fixing it. Because what I'm clear about is housing is the biggest crisis we face as a country, and millions of people continue to suffer, and that number continues to grow. And I really want to get into what that credible plan looks like in a moment and also get into the real issues of housing. Just want to talk about you for a few more moments and then I'll get onto the issue. You've had this amazing uh try and use avoid word using word the journey, but you have had this amazing journey and your social media videos uh popping up constantly where you visited some of the worst conditions and you've sat down with people who must have told you the most horrific stories. I'm wondering how you've kind of emotionally protected yourself from that, because it's a lot to take on. That is a good question, and for years I think I I neglected that and it's weird. Even with my dad's story, you almost build a wall, an emotional wall, so you can continue going and speaking about it and pushing on their behalf. But it's very, very difficult. I mean, I have left homes absolutely depressed after hearing what it is I've heard or seeing what it is I've seen after going into those homes. And in some cases it's completely worse than what me and my family were having to to go through. And in some cases, there are very similar um connections between what I see when I go into other people's homes and my own story, which is difficult. But I almost have to ignore that and and and just continue going. But when I do go and speak to someone who has terminal cancer, for example, um having to go and wash in McDonald's or sleep on night buses, or kids who have become really, really unwell in their homes or having to wear uh bags over my shoes before I go into a property because I'm ankle deep in raw sewage. It of course is hard. It's difficult. Um but the reason I continue to do what I do is because I I feel it for them. I I understand what it feels like. I know what it's like. I constantly think of my dad when I'm going into these homes. And I firmly believe in my heart that it is completely unacceptable. Um, and therefore I feel I have a duty and responsibility to call it out, and often when I do it it does get sorted. We have these local elections coming up. How much of this do you think is a local council level issue? How much of it is a national issue? I know the answer is it's both, but where do you think the main points of intervention are? It's both the buck stops I think at number ten and the Prime Minister. In terms of a local level, there is so much that they could and should be doing, which I don't believe that they are, and obviously there are those financial constraints. Um and I will be the first to cue up and scream about the need to genuinely fund councils so that they can provide their services. Otherwise, the mass simply won't add up and people will suffer. But then again, with local authorities, and I talk about landlords, some of the local authorities are the worst landlords I have come across. I mean, in terms of systemically, the culture and stigma towards those that are homeless and the attitudes towards those that are homeless is completely rotten. And one thing I'll make clear is it costs absolutely zero pounds and zero pence to treat people with human decency and respect. But there have been many instances where I've seen in local government them being devoid of just showing the absolute basic towards people who are fundamentally suffering . But it's a systemic problem across the whole housing spectrum with landlords. And fundamentally I think that needs to change. And that change starts with um the Prime Minister. I think you make such a good point about councils being strapped for cash. It's been something I've been thinking about a lot that obviously I hope in a week or two's time that there'll be more green councils. But actually some of the impossible situations they're going to be put in by a national government who are not funding services properly. We live in the sixth wealthiest economy in the world and they say there's no money left, but it feels like there's lots of money for multimillionaires and billionaires, but not so money for our communities or or to build council houses. That being said, because that feels like a slightly separate discussion to to the housing one. You said that some local councils are uh uh are terrible landlords. What what do you think they need to do to be good landlords? Like what does best practice look like? What does best practice look like ? I think there needs to be a complete overhaul when it comes to homelessness departments across local authorities, especially London local authorities. It's almost as if they listen to homeless individuals just to simply respond, not to understand what it is that they're going through. Um, often what they will use is policy, policy, policy as an excuse of not doing what you believe a council would when it comes to provid ing assistance. And in some instances, it's almost as if these local authorities want to do absolutely everything to absolve themselves of any responsibility to help individuals, then actually helping those individuals. For example, people fleeing domestic violence. I have doubt dealt with countless cases in the past, but it's almost as if some of these local authorities make things so hard for those fleeing domestic violence. I understand why some of them consider returning back to their abusers and those homes because of how hard it's made for them. That's not right. Like I said, people with terminal illnesses having to sleep on night buses and wash in McDonald's instead of being provided with emergency accommodation. That's not right. I've had people with stage four brain cancer who's had to have their cancer treatment stopped by their oncologist because they're sleeping in their car and have nowhere to recover safely. That's not right. And I know those are extreme cases, but if that's happening, what does that say for everyone else that may go through it? And we know homeless figures, especially amongst kids, is constantly climbing. I think we're over 170,000 homeless kids in England alone at the moment. And that number will continue to grow. What hope do they have? Yeah, and those are just for cases you know about, right? There'll be d even worse cases that never even reach your there is a massive cultural shift that needs to happen, a genuine culture shift. I'm so sick and tired of hearing lip service, but not just lip service by uh local authorities, but also government too. That fundamentally needs to change. People aren't stupid. The people I meet up and down the country, on estates and beyond, they're not stupid. They can see what is what is happening and they also understand that every let's say five years, politicians are coming out and begging them for their votes and promising that they're gonna sort housing, they're gonna sort their situations, they're gonna address the homelessness crisis. And then they get into power and that simply doesn't happen. And that's why they become so sick and tired of politics and see everyone as the same. And I think the start is ten percent of MPs are landlords. I would say this is a huge part of the problem. I don't know what your diagnosis is with that. It's interesting, especially when we're talking about change and changes in regards to um renters' rights. So remember thinking that when the Conservatives are in power and thinking surely this is a conflict of interest. Aaron Powell And in terms of one of the number one tools to tackle the housing crisis, I would say it's to build more council housing or social housing. Why do you think that's not happening at the scale that it needs to happen at? Again, comes down to stigma towards social housing that's been building since before I was even alive. We talk about the the 1980s and the Thatcher government and how that really changed things, the introduction of the right to buy and therefore social housing becoming a scarce resource and therefore first and foremost prioritized for those most in need, which is completely understandable when that happens. But ultimately what that meant was we had a situation where social housing and council housing was looked down upon and not just that, the people living in council and social housing. We also then had shows like Benefit Street. Many people remember that and some other shows which sort of to me I would describe as poverty porn and and and made real fun out of the situations of working class individuals and built a name, a negative name, for so many up and down the country. And I can tell you now, it couldn't be further from the truth compared to what I've seen when I've gone onto estates, when I've gone up and down the country speaking to working working class people and getting their views going into their homes. Um and it was very, very sad to see. But it was the underinvestment of council and social housing. We saw under the Conservatives that more social homes, council housing was being knocked down and sold off than being built annually. And then we wonder why we're in a situation where one point three million households , not individuals, households, are stuck on council waiting lists up and down the country and we've got over one hundred and seventy thousand homeless kids waiting for social housing. Many of them will spend their entire childhoods living in emergency accommodation because we simply do not have enough social housing. And I do believe in order to tackle this crisis, we have to start with a bottom up approach and that fundamentally starts with building more council housing. The reason I say that is because it's a safety net for so many. And I'm sure we're gonna come onto the private rented sector where rents are completely extortionate and homelessness is spiralling. But what's happening is because we're not dealing with that, it means more and more people and more and more families are being pushed to local authorities and councils. They don't have the houses or homes to house them. So what it means is in places like London, we're now spending £5.5 million a day on temporary accommodation, the majority of which will be from the private rented sector. Yeah. And that isn't efficient. That's not how we tackle the housing crisis. We need long-term solutions. And that is building quality, decent council housing. Now I hope one day will be seen as a tenure not only for those most in need and not just for the poorest in society. And you look at places like Austria where that's not the case. It's the only, in my mind, the only form of genuinely affordable housing and we fundamentally need more of it to rebalance the crisis we're facing at the moment and to reduce the crisis that we're facing. To push back it's not really my pushback, it's just something I hear all the time. So I'm interested what your answer is. So uh I definitely want to end right to buy. But you often hear people go, but were people not right to buy their own homes? Like was not owning a home something that you know, someone who is working class and in a council house entitled to do so. Right to buy. I mean, that is the bane of my life. I I think it is the most devastating housing policy that was possibly introduced under the guise of helping uh working class people to get onto the property ladder. If you look at the number of homes sold under right to buy that has now fallen into the private rented sector, it's astonishing um how many homes we have lost under right to buy since it was introduced in the nineteen eighties. And people asked me, was the right to buy a success? No, it was an absolute failure. The reason being is under right to buy, it was promised that for the homes that were sold off they, would be replaced. That never happened. Automatically, in my eyes, that policy was a failure. And people say, well, they were trying to help um working class people. I don't think that was the case. I think they were trying to get rid of social housing and wanted to do that by introducing the right to buy scheme. But when people say that, I ask them at the expense of who? At the expense of one point three million households, working class households now stuck on waiting lists across the country, a hundred and seventy two thousand homeless kids who will probably spend their entire childhood homeless or in emergency accommodation, often slum conditions. Is that the success that they're talking about? Because that is the reality as a result of of the introduction the right to buy scheme. And I fundamentally do believe that they would have understood that if they didn't, alongside the right to buy scheme, replace those homes, we would further down the line end up in a situation like this, but by that point they're no longer in government and therefore it's not their problem anymore. And it's not just Margaret Thatcher, there's been consecutive governments, Labour and Conservative governments, who have failed to address this issue, have fail whoed to give council and social housing the respect it deserves, who have failed to admit that it's one of the biggest ways that we're going to get out of the housing crisis that we have faced, and they have been incredibly underwhelming with that . So it's not just we blame one. There is a whole host of reasons as to why we've ended up where we are now. But often you can trace it back to the introduction of the right to buy scheme and the Housing Act of nineteen eighty eight. Aaron Powell So so well articulated. You mentioned the private rented sector and of course that's the place to go next. We've had the renters' rights bill and I I'm sure you'd agree there's been some good improvements in it. But also things like um ending Section twenty one evictions, no fault evictions, it took so long and we still had councils, the councils themselves who were still using Section 21s with different loopholes. What do you still think are the biggest gaps in terms of rights for private renters? I don't think enough's being done with estate agents and there ha we haven't really spotlighted just how much of a problem they have become in terms of the misery that renters are facing. But I also believe they've become a problem for landlords too, because often they act as the middleman and fail to communicate between the two, but are happy to collect money off of the back of it. In terms of rent is rights, there was a point that I wanted to mention, and that was the affordability issue in the private rented sector. That is a massive reason as to why we have the levels of homelessness that we are facing at the moment. Yes, we had section 21, and I'm glad to see the back of that. But the big elephant in the room is the affordability crisis in the private rented sector and people really, really struggling in some cases paying the majority of their income per month to their private landlord. And in many cases, the conditions of their homes are shambolic. Something has to be done about it. And people don't like the term rent control or rent stabilization. What I am fundamentally clear on is something, in order to tackle this housing crisis, something has to be done to address the affordability crisis in the private rented sector. And so I am calling for rent controls. Do you have a position on rent controls or in terms of rent controls, I mean as I said, something has to be done to address the affordability crisis in the private rented sector. Rent controls, people will often ask, well, what does that look like? And I think it's important to actually, create a model which fund amentally works. I think a big problem that I see online often is people talk about well, if we introduced rent controls, would that then mean that landlords are leaving at a rapid pace and therefore people become homeless off the back of that and then have to turn to local authorities that don't have council housing. So we have to address the issues where I guess with rent controls, rents are fair, but in the long and short term, it doesn't end up having uh the the sort of impact that we don't want, and that is driving people towards homelessness. Um but with rent controls, people panic when they hear it. There are some other countries that have had rent controls or rent stabilization to address unaffordable rent specifically with private housing. You can look at New York City, for example, you can look at Berlin. I think in 2020 they introduced that. Scotland, I think, and I know there was issues with all of these, uh I mean none of these models were perfect, but what was shown was a willingness to address the elephant in the room and that is millions of people are struggling, really struggling to pay their rent on a monthly basis because they keep receiving rent hikes, which is completely, completely unfair. And I think a fair point to make is if landlords were going through that situation where it was reversed and they were receiving rent hikes, living in poor conditions, for example, um having to choose whether they're gonna put clothes on their kids back, feed themselves, or pay the rent at the end of the month, they would think it's completely fair. So I like to believe in treating people how you would like to be treated. And I think that the same should apply when it comes to renting. Whether we call it rent control or we call it something else, I don't care. Um what I do care about though is people not having to pay the majority of their income on a monthly basis to their landlords and therefore having a poorer quality of life as a result of that? We have to, just like building council housing , it's equally as po it is important to address that crisis. Otherwise, we're gonna see more and more pressure being piled onto local authorities who simply do not have the resources, the money or the homes to deal with it. Yeah, I' suppose the thing Id say and not that we've come here to have a discussion about rent controls, it's an episode I'd love to have later on probably with someone who's designing a model. Yeah. Is that you know if landlords did leave, we'd still have the buildings themselves. So actually that doesn't necessarily mean that, you know, that that exacerbates the housing crisis. I think uh there's eighteen countries across Europe where rent controls are a perfectly normal model of of how it works. And um places where it's not worked or not worked as well as it could it's often been because they've chosen to rent control a few homes or a sector of homes but not the entire market. And it feels like you kind of need a blanket approach rather than just a piecemeal approach. I do think it can work. I mean in terms of Scotland, I guess that was a unique situation because they introduced that because of the cost of living crisis that we are facing. And I think short term there were positives in regards to it. I mean it did what they intended for it to do, and that was make rents fairer. But then what we saw was in between tenancies, landlords would then hike their hike the rents for tenants then moving into those properties, which is unfair, and just continued that process. So it's about thinking about well, how do we do it in a way that's fair, that's efficient and don't have any sort of counter effects that we don't want it to have. But then if we think about it right, we had I think it was called Fair Rents. Yeah, I need to rem try to remember the dates now, but I think was that up until nineteen eighties? I think it was around about that. Yeah, nineteen eighties. And we saw during the second world war and the first world war this idea of uh rent control or rent stabilization. We had that for a long period of time. Then we 're kind of in the experiment now as opposed to the other way around. Like rent controls isn't the experiment. What we have now is the experiment that's gone wrong. Yeah. And I mean again I I referenced the Housing Act of 1998, but we saw that massive shift away from that. And since then, more and more people have just suffered as a result of that. So we have to get back to a model that's fair. We absolutely have to address the unafford or the affordability crisis in the private rented sector. And that starts with some sort of rent control, rent stabilization, but addressing that in particular, whether people like it or not, because ultimately no one wants to be in that position. Yeah, finally on rent controls and I'll move on. Zoe Garbett. Yes. She's been pushing the May ofor London for a renters commission, which is about having renters and renters unions all round the table together going actually let's design what a fair rent looks like, how we do rent controls and then start to lobby to make it happen. So I think it's filling in some of these gaps. I think there is amongst some MPs a willingness to consider it and take it on board because I think I mean for any MP it's it's really hard for me to believe that they don't think the the the the situation of the private rental sector needs to be addressed in terms of extortion at rents. So I think there's more and more of a willingness to accept that something needs to be done. The question is about how and whether senior leaders want to consider it or think it's important enough to take on on on board. But I commend anyone that works in politics openly and admitting there's a problem here. There is an elephant in a room and it needs to be addressed. Yeah, definitely we need to bring those people together. Um I reckon ten years ago if we'd had this conversation about housing and we're talking about people who are living in financially precarious situations, we'd be talking about temporary accommodation, renting, and people living in council houses. We wouldn't talk about people who own their own homes necessarily. But it feels like leaseholders created a whole new tier of financial financial precar ity. I believe there's over five million people in London in leasehold accommodation and more countrywide. Kalash, what the difficulties are about leasehold? Well it's it's I guess very similar to what I deal with in rented accommodation and in particular I haven't had loads of leaseholders approach me in regards to their situation. It's more so renters, but them again being them at the mercy of those in charge and their freeholders, then basically charging whatever they want, however extortionate it may be, and expect them to pay it. They're basically essentially saying uh, or telling them to jump and expecting them to turn around and say, well, how how high? And it's been going on for a very, very long time. I've spoken to many leaseholders who are put in extremely financi ally precarious situations because of their freeholders. Not only that, some of them not being able to sell their homes because of safety issues, for example. So they feel fundamentally trapped in a system which isn't fair. Now, this government said they were going to address it. I've been seen a lot online in in r relation to leasehold. I know there are some leaseholders out there that certainly feel that um the government promised one thing and now they're shifting goalposts. And that for me is a problem. That for me is unfair. If you say you're going to do something, then just get on with doing it, because otherwise it sows distrust and leaseholders, quite frankly and quite rightly, are going to end up pissed off as a result of that. Right. And I partly asked the question, because I'm wondering how hopeful you feel that we can turn situation around housing more generally around. Because it felt like it used to be a small amount of people who had uh unsafe and unfair living conditions and that wasn't when it was a few people. But now it feels like everyone knows someone who's living in somewhere that's got damp mold or some sort of housing issue where the person who owns it isn't taking responsibility they need to. It's true. And we often see leasehold separate from private rented, separate from social housing, separate from temporary accommodation. But when we add all of those people up, we are talking about millions of people up and down the country. And the reason I say tackling this housing crisis is important is because the one thing that we all need as human beings and we expect to go back to the end of the day is And safe and affordable roof over our head. That's what unites us all. But for so many, they do not have access to that, and that is a growing number of people. We're talking about millions, millions of people. If I was in politics and thought, what is the issue that affects the majority of people up and down the country is in a state and needs fixing? The first thing that I will come to is housing. It affects a child's educ ation. We talk about people leaving the prison system and being handed tents to live in, people sustaining jobs, people sustaining uh education. I've seen people drop out of university as a result of the impact living in a dangerous home is having on them. We talk about the NHS and hospital beds have people having to be kept in hospitals because there's nowhere safe to discharge them to, people with terminal illnesses and cancer treatment being paused because again they don't have anywhere safe to go back to. It aff when ha when you don't have somewhere that is safe, decent and affordable and that is taken away from you, it affects all four corners of your lives. And as you said quite rightly, there is now I would probably argue the highest level of people suffering as a result of not having adequate and decent and affordable housing at the moment in this country. And I have been screaming this for a very, very long time. But we've seen it over decades. Housing has never been seen as that political priority that needs to be tackled. It's always been seen as a secondary issue, pushed down that the sort of political agenda. And therefore, what it's meant is for decades this crisis has been allowed to build. And now I think some politicians look at it and think, well, that mountain's too high to climb. Let's kick it under vote for a spectacle far beyond your imagination. Be amazed, be moved, be there for an experience that will stay with you forever. Disney's The Lion King at London's Lyceum Theatre. Book now at thelionking.co.uk . Take one . I am Wolverine. That was super terrible. Oh. Where's the confidence? Where's the bravado? Come on, like this. What I am Wolverine. Wait, I thought you were gonna be deadpool. Well, I am. I don't get it. Is your super power disappointing me? Scan your pack to win heroic Marvel prizes. M M's and Marvel. It's more fun together. See full terms and conditions when you scan. I'm Professor Noel Fitzpatrick, and as a vet, I know you want the best care for your animal companion. Pet insurance can help, but you need to choose wisely as not all policies are the same. Pet plan aim to pay claims quickly and without a fuss, and that's one reason why so many vets work with them. Get your pet the best veterinary care. Save 10% on new policies when you ensure at petplan.co.uk. Ts and Cs apply Fits All Media as an appointed representative of Petplan Lim And the one tenure I haven't asked you about is uh temporary accommodation and that often gets messed from these conversations because it feels like sometimes people feel invisible or they're not seen or heard. Um what's going on with temporary accommodation and and what needs to happen. The biggest issue I'm dealing with at the moment is um the state of temporary accommodation. I mean it's it's hard to talk about it without becoming somewhat upset. You're talking about people who are homeless whose only other alternative is to sleep on the street and they are given accommodation often and told you either take it or leave it. But if you leave it you're making yourself intentionally homeless and therefore we're not gonna help you. So they're trapped in often accepting accommodation which is completely unsuitable for their needs, which massively affects their mental health, and in many cases affects their physical health too. I've seen people living in temporary accommodation who have had ceilings collapse on top of them. I went to one HMO, which is temporary accommodation, where um that landlord was receiving about seven to ten thousand pounds a month from a local authority. Um, and I had to have all seven members of that accommodation who were homeless moved out and that property condemned because of how dangerous it was. I went in there and genuinely thought I was going to be electrocuted. There was water pouring from the lights. It meant on the ground floor where the residents were sleeping. They had fridges plugged in their rooms, but that would often trip because of the electrical leak. There was bars on the window, um the kitchen didn't even have a working oven. It just blew my mind because I've seen so many cases of this um in temporary accommodation where local authorities are just paying ridiculous prices and accepted any form of uh accommodation from private landlords that they offer because they feel they have no alternative, whether it poses a dangerous risk to those living in those homes or not. And I think that is quite frankly disgraceful, nearly nine years on from Grenfell, when we talk about building safety, when we talk about the way in which residents are treated, whether they are heard or not heard, but ultimately their health and safety, nothing should come before that. But within temporary accommodation, that is completely And you've just triggered in mere memory, which was about ten years ago I lived in an HMO, which is basically a old hostel bedsit area, and it was ruled to be environmentally unsustainable. And um the landlord there, was all sorts of problems with the landlord, and actually he was a conservative counselor at the time. And I got a rent repayment order. So actually I got money back off my rent. But to get that rent repayment order, I had to read so much policy. Uh, my friend who I was living with at the time also read that and we kind of had to really apply ourselves to make sure that we got that money back. But how many people is a rent repayment order available to or how many people know their rights? It's it's so minimal. Well this is it and that's the case. And legal aid. Look at the state of legal aid and how that's been massively reduced. It's almost as if renters and ordinary individuals have been, especially living in HMOs or temporary accommodation, condemned to whatever it is that they're offered without any recourse to challenge that, which I think is completely and utterly unfair. And I don't think enough is being done about that. But also to educate renters. Often, if you don't know, you just don't know. You don't know where the help is. You don't know where to go. And often it's made so complicated and so difficult that it's in some cases just more convenient to put up with it than the headache of having to knock on so many doors to then be turned away before eventually you are helped. And that is why so many people end up coming to me because the people that are supposed to be there, the agencies that are supposed to be there that receive money, individuals are paid to make sure this sort of stuff isn't happening and those individuals are helped, fundamentally are not doing their job. I, in my role, cannot help absolutely everyone. It is at times completely and utterly overwhelming. And that's why I believe there has to be systemic change and once and for all taking housing in this country as a serious issue that needs to be tackled and dealt with. You cannot fix all of the other social issues that we are facing as a country without first and foremost addressing the issue of housing. And it's not just me saying that. I remember a couple of years ago NHS bosses came out and said, you can't claim to have fixed the NHS without first and foremost addressing housing and the crisis of housing because it is putting extra pressure on our NHS. Thank you for everything that you've done. I know you don't need my thanks, but just uh I think you put it so well there that this is a system failure. And in place of that, you've stepped in and given your time and your effort and your emotional energy and physical time and kind of brain space to helping other people who have really needed help and you shouldn't have to do that. But also, you know, on behalf of all of those people, I think, you know, you can't be thanked enough for that. When people do come to you, how much are they worried about revenge eviction or um repercussions as a result of you kind of amplifying their story? I mean in the beginning it was all the time there was two things. There was a fear of revenge evictions or revenge responses from their landlords, but also on top of that, the shame and stigma that it could carried to their situations. That was a big, big problem. I've spoken to people in absolute tears at their complete wits end, wanting things to change, but frightened to expose what it is they're going through in order to get that help. And people fail to understand and realize that you being in your situation isn't necessarily your fault. And by talking about your situation, the shame shouldn't lie with you. It should lie with those responsible who would never accept having to go through the situation that you are going through. And if there's one message, it would be that the shame should never lie with those going through it, but those responsible and ultimately that is why I've been able to do what I've been able to do for the last five years is because I've taken that shame away from them and handed it to those responsible. And I think as a country, we need to do more and more of that. But also everyone needs to understand, whether you're young or old, the importance of shelter and decent, safe and affordable shelter for us all, if not for us now as individuals, for the next generation who absolutely deserve what we weren't given. For sure. As an elected politician, the thing I hear about more than anything else with housing is damper mold. Trevor Burrus Yeah, damper mould is still a massive, massive issue. I still get loads of messages and emails of people living in damper mould. And that's even after the introduction of um Aweb's law. With that being said, I think after Aweb passed away, obviously it dominated headlines in terms of people are living with damp and mold and no one should have to, which is absolutely right. But what we began to forget was there are so many other dangerous issues that people are living with. Uh damaged asbestos, for example. I mentioned earlier that I've been into homes and have to put bags over my shoes because of people's homes being flooded with raw sewage. I've seen that count less times. I've left properties with cockroaches on me because of the infestation that families have faced. People have found mice in their kids' cornflakes. I've seen pictures of that. People have become unwell. I remember there was one young girl who was in hospital after developing sepsis. She was uh bitten. There was an infestation of I think there were fire ants in her property. There were like red ants in her property, um, she was rushed to the hospital in her organs started to fail. Um, off of the back of that. There are so many other issues that people are living with, not just damp and mould, that really puts their health and safety at serious risk. And I've even taken people to AE after they have had uh their ceiling, cave in and collapse on top of them, which is a very, very common issue too, on top of leaks. Aaron Powell And this is in twenty twenty six in Britain. Yeah. And I think it's a point of yeah, we need to insulate homes, but we also need to ventilate homes because actually we need to make sure that there's that air to to pass through. Yeah and I also want to make um the point before I entirely forget is we often talk about cold homes during winter, but what we don't necessarily speak about enough is warm homes during summer. I remember a couple summers ago we had like 40 degree heat. And I actually remember that because I was in Leeds climbing tower blocks at the time and knocking on people's residence doors to speak to them about the conditions they were living in. But I remember at that time people reaching out talking about how hot their homes were, especially in older um blocks, tower blocks, people sending pictures of thermometers and the the heat in their property being absolutely ridiculous. Some people having to go and sleep on their friends' sofas because of how unbearably hot their homes were. And I guess we're gonna see more and more with that. We can expect more and more of that. Um and in winter we can expect more and more rain, leaks, those types of things, but we cannot forget that summer's becoming a real issue in terms of homes becoming too hot, and we do absolutely need to do something to address that before people die. And I know there are some countries during that period of time where a number of people died as a result Yeah, I mean that's really bad for everyone, but particularly older populations. I have to say, when you said you were climbing a tower block, I had Spider-Man things, and then I realized you meant that down the stairs. Yeah. But you're absolutely right, the climate crisis means we're going to get colder winters with more rain We have to keep that in mind, not just with older homes, but with new builds. Just in the state of new builds. And it's absolutely shocking what's being allowed to go up in some instances. And I've said time and time again: if we think we've got a housing crisis now and we allow new blocks just to be knocked up shoddily. U,h we're gonna have an even bigger crisis in twenty years' time when they have to be torn down. If we're going to and we're serious about building homes, we have to do it right first and foremost. Otherwise, there is no point. Um, and some of the new builds that I've seen go up, I remember there was one in particular, only two years old. And I went in there, I went from top to bottom, and there was issues like damper mould, ceilings collapsing, um, sewage running from the top right down into the basement of this block. And from the outside it looked like something that should belong in Canary Wharf or central London, but was an absolute state. And in fact I think all residents now have to be moved out as a result of that. That block isn't even five years old. And if this can all sound a bit grim, there was definitely some hope recently, which I saw that you were on a march for national renters demonstration uh where literally thousands of people turned out. How much of an important moment was that for you? Oh, it was absolutely huge. Uh even talk about it now, like hairs are standing up on my arm. I think even going there, I underestimated uh the numbers of people that would that would show up. And when I started five years ago going into people's homes, I would talk to individuals and I even remember thinking in my own situation, oh it's just me going through it. Um we're gonna be blamed for it. Then to come five years later out on a national housing demonstration, I would have never believed that was possible back then. And not only that, for the amount of people to show up on the first one in years was absolutely incredi ble to see and everyone unified, all of the organizations that showed up, all of the volunteers that showed up, individuals on the rough end of the housing crisis, quite frankly, pissed off with what is going on and the fact enough isn't being done all united and calling for the same things. It certainly filled me with hope. And I do feel like I'm hopeful that this crisis can be tackled once and all for. The only reason that I'm here and talking about it and still doing this five years on is because I genuinely do believe this is an issue that can be fixed, but it takes the right will to do so. And I hope certainly within my lifetime that I look back and I'm able to say, I told you so , it could be done. And if people want to help out or they want things to get better, obviously the first thing I would say is go out and vote tomorrow. It's really important that you make sure that you're voting for a councillor who will hold housing as an important issue as a conversation we've had here. What else can people do other than voting? First and foremost, talking about the issues, talking to your neighbours, talking to your friends about how important housing is. Just like we talk about the NHS and education, housing is equally as important to that, and they all intertwine in effect to each other. Um, but not only that, volunteer, volunteer to help people going through it. Th'eres so many organizations who I feel absolutely overwhelmed with the crisis that we're facing at the moment, and there are loads of organizations who are under-resourced trying to support that that could do with people volunteering and assisting. And it really does open your eyes into the reality of what people are going on and what's happening on a daily basis, but also put pressure on your politicians because they will come round every five years and beg you for your votes and they will ask you what is it that you need and you will tell them, Well, my housing, my leaks fixed, my rent's not to go up, not having to worry whether I'm going to have to pay the majority of my wage in rent at the end of each month. And they will say, Yeah, we will do that. And then you will elect them and that's not the case. Accountability needs to happen and holding them to account. And I certainly think if your councillor isn't talking about housing in the run up to this election, personally, it's up to you who it is that you vote for. Um but I would have very, very serious questions. It strikes me I I don't want to deter from a really serious issue of housing, but I'm really interested in your story too, because you talked about how you'd come from from living in in this accommodation. But you're you're seemingly so confident, um so relaxed about talking about these issues and you've been on, you know, huge national media platforms . What would you say to people who might be nervous to speak up on these things or have stories to tell, but think it's it's not for them to to speak? It absolutely is. Everyone's story is important. And I would never say to the next person, oh, your story isn't as important as mine, X, Y, and Z. Everyone should speak about their situation. Live there's nothing more important, I don't believe, than lived experience and hearing about lived experience because that's ultimately how we create change and people realiz ing that it's not just them, there are other people going through the same thing, and ultimately these things need to change, and in the beginning I remember thinking, Oh my gosh, am I gonna be an absolute nightmare? I remember the first time I did any sort of podcast or interview, never done it in the past, hated public speaking, would get nervous, mind blank. That's why I'm not and it all sometimes it does still um occur and and happen. But I feel like when you genuinely care about a subject like housing and because you've got that lived experience and you've been through it, that confidence already comes through and it comes through in passion. Yeah, it just shines off you. And if so if you're someone who's living in accommodation that's unsuitable or there's a problem, would you encourage someone to kind of create their own video and publish it out loud? Absolutely. There's nothing more important than shame and I can tell you that because again, that that's sort of what I built a name off of. And it's weird because you're often told and I remember the first time it happened in fact. So before I shared my videos on social media of my property. I remember having a housing officer come in my house and they were looking around and they were trying to basically gaslight me into believing it wasn't as bad as what it was. And then I put on social media and it went viral and they picked up on it. This is the biggest housing association in Europe. They picked up on it. The following week, it was like he he came back to my property, but it was like I was talking to a brand new person. And that I realized that's when a penny dropped for me. It was the shame. And I think people need to sort of get over that idea of them needing to feel that sense of shame and really hand it back to those responsible. So absolutely, I would encourage people to turn to social media, share their experiences, and don't be afraid to call individuals out for not doing what they're responsible for doing or paid to do. There's nothing wrong with that. Everyone deserves to live in a home which is safe, decent, and affordable . And I would say that to absolutely anyone and everyone, regardless of who you vote for, regardless of your job, of your background, and I think we all need to be united in that understanding if we're to really move forward Aaron Powell I wouldn't want to end this conversation without talking about an issue I often hear that I imagine has probably come across to you as well, which is the issue of uh people with disabilities uh living in non-accessible housing or housing that's not appropriate, or being stuck on like an eighth floor without a lift, you know, that's working for for a week or two. Which you know, a week or two might not sound like a huge amount of time, but if you're in a wheelchair, then that's uh one day really isn't acceptable. It's a big issue. A really, really big issue. And I remember saying in the past we talk about the Equalities Act, I don't believe in many situations that I've seen that it's been applied. And often to those with disabilities, unfortunately. I've seen many, many cases of people in wheelchairs, for example, trapped in their homes for months because they haven't got a working lift or can't get out of their property. Not only that when it comes to the allocation of housing, them being placed on the top floor or very high floors in tower blocks. And that for me is a massive problem. Look in terms of what we saw with Grenfell, why is it that we're not caring for these individuals and their needs? And in fact, um this I think highlights how big of a problem it comes to when we're talking about people with disabilities or accessible homes in this country, especially social housing. I not long ago, uh I'd say maybe six months to a year ago, I FOI'd local authorities and I asked them about accessibility and how many people on their waiting list in the woods councils that turned around to me and turned back and said they don't record it. Gosh. They don't record it. Which if that doesn't highlight the sort of lack of or lack of respect shown towards those with disabilities or v ulnerable individuals or those in mental health, for example, I don't know what does. That is a huge problem. And I find it hard to believe that there are people in housing departments with massive titles and none of them possibly thought maybe this is something that we should have been recorded. This is why I get so frustrated and this is why I get so angry. The culture and stigma needs to massively shift towards those that are renting, but also those that are vulnerable with mental health and with disabilities. As we come to the end of this conversation, which has been amazing, you're full of knowledge as I expect and passion, it feels like we need to talk about Gremfell because I think there's probably no bigger symbol not just symbol, but practical action that happened that showed the failure of housing in this country. And what lessons do you think need to be learned? It's interesting that nine years on, we're still we still have to talk about lessons being learned from the biggest tragedy in relation to housing this country has ever faced. The biggest lesson that really should have come from that is treating people like human beings like equals, which still to today fundamentally doesn't happen. And residents who survived the disaster have spoken about even before the fire, the way in which they were treated, the way in which they were stigmatized, they were treated the as less than human beings. And that's the foundation, that's the basis where things really could have changed and should have changed. It didn't take a lot of money in order to do that. It took a shift in culture. Um, it took those at the sort of top of the political spectrum to point that out and to talk about that and to really implement that. And it hasn't happened enough. And and and one thing I say in terms of cause often it's landlords or organizations and businesses versus residents. We as a country have gone from treating housing as a human right, something that we all need into a hobby or an opportunity to accumulate wealth by investing in property and housing. And as a result of that, more and more people have continued to suffer and businesses have got away with avoiding safety regulations or ensuring health and safety, treating health and safety as a number one priority for those who are living in their properties. And I think Grenfell was an example of just that . Organizational abuse, organiz ational power, um the exploitation of residents and tenants, the attitudes towards them. I can't tell you the amount of times I've heard people say, well, those individuals shouldn't be complaining, they should feel lucky to live in social housing regardless of the conditions. That's part of the problem. And one of the reasons I continue doing what I am doing is one because of my dad, and two because of Grenfell and what happened. I remember where I was. I remember the time uh when I first watched the news and I saw aerial footage of Grenfell was before I was gonna go off to sixth one and I remember how I felt and that has stayed with me ever since. And if I can I if I can do my bit to try and prevent anything like that ever happening, then I want to be able to to do that And there's still evidence that comes out. I've found out recently that when people called the the fire brigade or the the call controllers, they would be treated differently depending on their accent or how well they spoke English. And I think it points how housing is one thing, but actually it speaks to every other discrimination and every other problem we have in society. All of these things are interlinked actually and it comes back to treating everyone with with humanity and dignity. Yeah, and that feeds on across stories that I've heard. My dad, for example, when he used to call up the local authorities, his medal name is Robert. My dad had a strong West African accent, and he used to when he used to phone them up, he would give the name Robert instead of Kwahu, because he he felt he would be taken a bit more seriously had he done that. And that goes to show like it's not isolated incidents. This is a systemic cultural cultural problem ultimately. The point I wanted to make in regards to Grenfell is that we are nearly nine years on and no one's gone to jail for it, no one's been prosecuted for it. And I can't help but think if Grenfell were to have happened in Canary Wharf in an office block or in a rich, a really, really rich block in London with wealthy individuals, would they really have had to wait nine years to see individuals prosecuted as a result of that happening because of their failure, because of their negligence negligence, corporate negligence? Um I don't think that would would be the case, unfortunately. I fundamentally believe b it's because of the type of people that were living in, Grenfell. And that is a real, real big shame. And they deserve justice. The community is still reeling because they are waiting for justice and they will continue to wait for justice, I'm sure. Governments haven't gone far enough, they've paid a lot of s lip service, consistently paid a lot of lip service, but haven't gone far enough in terms of action to deliver for those that were living in Grenfell, those that lost their lives and those in and amongst the community too. Can I make your housing secretary and ask you what you do about the issue of second homes or empty buildings Empty buildings, my however forgotten I'm glad you're pointing all of these out. Empty properties, it's an absolute disgrace that we have over a million empty homes whilst we've got 170 odd thousand homeless kids in England. If we're talking about efficiency, you would think if we've got empty homes there, we would invest in bringing them up to standard and making sure that we are renting them out. There's a lot of local authorities who say they're absolutely cash-strapped yet are sat on hundreds of empty property. And to me that is financial illiteracy. But the most important point here is the amount of homeless people and people stuck on waiting lists. Yes, some of those homes may be beyond repair. Yes, some of those homes may need extensive repair. But also what we need to realize is when there's inefficiency when it comes to housing, especially council properties, where tenants move out and then they've mismanaged it in the sense where those properties are then left for a year or two to sat sit empty. They then develop issues like damp and mould and begin to deteriorate and become one of those homes which is where it's gonna cost a lot to invest in it to bring it back up to standard. We need better efficiency, but first and foremost, we need a common sense approach and you would think bringing empty homes back into use would be an absolute fundamental priority. I think another thing that I've said in the the past is this issue with foreign investors in terms of buying up wealthy investors, buying up properties, buying up in some cases entire development s and then they go left sat empty when we're in the biggest housing crisis we have faced during the Second World War. What I suggested in the past was, and I'm sure I haven't been the first person to say this, is if that's the case and they are willing to leave these properties empty, why is it that we haven't thought about slapping taxes on them and taking that money and investing building the homes that British people need here and now and that is council housing, perhaps using some of that money to give to councils who are cash-strapped to begin building homes that so many of the people living in their areas so desperately need. Whether or not that's being considered, I don't know, but something that there are smarter, more efficient things that we could be doing to tackle this crisis, like empty homes, like taxes on homes that are left sat empty. Um and I've been screaming about it for a very long time, but I just don't understand why it's not been implemented or even considered yet. I keep shouting out my colleagues' work today, but that's because we're doing a lot on housing. Uh Sean Berry, the MP for Brighton Pavilion. She's been doing something called buy the supply or pushing something called Buy the Supply, which is about uh councils having first refusal or buying back empty homes or homes not in use to make sure that they can be used for council housing. I think she has a petition at the moment out online that people can find by searching Sean Berry by the supply. Should get first refusal in in in regards to to buying back those properties. Yes, we need to build homes and we could be building homes, but if we've got loads of stock already out there that we could use and it's not going to take years to build, why are we not utilising that? Um because it means we are shortening the length of time families are going to have to suffer stuck on council waiting lists, living in dangerous um HMOs, or being moved to other sides of the country because they're being told that there are no homes available. We need to think smart about tackling this crisis. And can I put in one more caution? It's very niche, but I think it's important.