Future Political Ambitions and Intersectionality

On this podcast we've had economists, sociologists and politicians A Love Island contestant isn't maybe the most obvious fit. But actually there's been a tradition and a recent trend of contestants leaving the show and going on to do important work with their platforms and campaigning. And one of those trailblazers is Sharon Gafka, who I'm delighted to have on the episode today. Welcome to Bold Politics. Sharon, wonderful to have you in the studio. Now you are a Love Island contestant alongside many other things, but that's probably something that lots of people will know you for. People might go, oh, are they about to have a conversation about influencing and branding? And the truth is you absolutely do influence, but you use your platform particularly to talk about women's rights. It almost sounds like a silly question, but it seems a good place to start. Why is that important? And then what aspects of women's rights particularly should we be talking about today? I mean there is an element of influencing and personal branding when it comes to politics anyway, right? But um firstly I'm a woman. I have very much lived experience of what it's like to grow up. in the UK as a as a woman and hearing the experiences of my friends. is all firstly enough to to make you angry and go, Why is this something that we're told we basically have to put up with. Some people might not know 'cause I I think there's a conversation about the Love Island politics pipeline. I was a a civil servant for six and a half years before I went on Love Island. So I kind of had understanding of how government works, how policy's made. And then I knew that leaving a show like Love Island, British media are so interested in what you've got to say for whatever reason. So I was like, right, I'm gonna use this moment to like make my mark, I guess, because I wasn't interested in an the stereotypical Love Island brand deals. And then my inbox like it just snowballed so I got one DM and then two and then ended up having thousands at one point of just women just telling me things they've been through. It feels like an injustice that someone was brave enough to disclose something to you and then to just not do anything with it. That was like my motivation, basically. And then there's this acronym that's often used VOG, which is violence against women and girls. Um one would be interesting to have a conversation about the acronym in itself, because I know for lots of people they go actually they They don't like the fact that that gets acronymed, if that's a word. Yeah. Um and also what what specifically are you doing or highlighting around violence against women and girls? Yeah, I think it's as an Asian woman, it's the same as the phrase BAME. Like I hate being uh being acronymed. I prefer to call it male violence against women because that that is exactly what it is. Um, you know, it's not women on women violence. Um, for me, it kind of started talking about my own experience of of being spiked. So the year before I went on to Love Island, I'd experienced drink spiking here in in London and I was ashamed. It made me feel like it was my fault. Like is there something I could have done differently when actually No, it's not my fault. If I did something differently or behave differently, it would have been somebody else. And other person might not have had the support system that I had in order to be able to to cope with it and to kind of break it down and deal with it emotionally and physically so in a way it's like semi grateful that it happened to someone who has support, but I shouldn't think about it in that way. I always call myself a lucky survivor because the worst thing that was supposed to happen to me didn't happen. And again, it's why do I think that way? Why are women conditioned to think that way? And then also leaving Love Island, lots of misogynistic hate. lots of racial abuse actually that I received. And I've noticed that lots of young women in particular taught that love is very different to what it should be with the rise of technology that Because we're so used to sharing our locations with our friends. as a safety mechanism from coming home from a night out. potential perpetrators are also using this as a sign of like I love you and I care for you. So that I've noticed a trend where young women are struggling to differentiate between what is Safe and healthy love. No. So it it's kind of a it's kind of taken lots of different angles. And I was very fortunate, I think it's four years now that I've been a an ambassador for refuge and they've done some amazing work and I've been able to help help change laws with them and bring online safety into actual legislative conversation as opposed to just something that We sh it would be a nice to have. What laws have you been working on with refuge and what what still needs to happen? Yeah, so um with refuge it was mostly the Online Safety Act. We wanted to make sure that children are protected when they're online, first of all. But also that women can actually get justice for some of the things they're experiencing. So For example, if you flash somebody in the street. that's automatically a crime. Whereas if you send if you sent somebody an unsolicited image. Not necessarily. And it shouldn't be like that. The real world and the online world are not two separate entities anymore. They are very much one part of life and society. And that sh it shouldn't be like that. And the other thing that I started talking about recently is that um I discovered a Reddit thread of myself where men were using my images to ejaculate over them. And that was not seen as a crime. Um but obviously if that happened to me in the street. that is very much a crime. So it's about making sure that women feel like they are not removed from online spaces and they feel safe to to live a normal life. And then as a result of spiking, I managed to h reclassify G H B to a class B drug, so if you're caught in possession before you even do anything, it's a strict prison sentence. and have spiking as a standalone offence and not for victims or police officers to have to look. through loads of different pieces of legislation to find where the crime sits in order for victims to get justice. Makes a lot of sense. And in terms of um the Online Safety Act, because also it's had a fair bit of criticism though as well. Particularly the the point that you know if someone wants to use a VPN or there's there's ways around things. How involved were you with the act overall, or was this very specifically uh these are measures for women that I want to make sure are in there? Yeah, for me it was specifically about the measures for women. The violence against women and girls code of practice was something that was a little bit toyed around with with the then government. And it's not something that should be toyed around with, you know, majority of the hate that is online is geared towards women and girls. So therefore we need to take that into consideration with the piece of legislation and and that was the part that I played in it. And you used the word survivor a few moments ago, and I know that's increasingly the word used rather than victim. If someone's not heard that distinction before, would you mind outlining why why that's important? I think when we talk about gender based violence languages. so important. For me, I always refer to someone as a survivor because that's something you have survived and that's something you've come through. I think it's more empowering. because that person is incredibly brave to have to go through what they've done through and to come out the other side. And you are a victim. You were a victim at that moment in time, but you don't always remain a victim. And the women that I've met in real life and and spoken to and seen, they've transformed their lives. They've come so far to keep using the phrase victim. Does that hard work such a disservice? And was there something that uh you you start to be upset by saying I'm a woman, I care about this. Even growing up, were these things that you cared about? Was it through your work, through the civil service, or various that you've got involved with, whether you've gone actually this is what I want to dedicate my life's work to? I've always had an interest in politics. I think when I talk to people I always say that the next election will be a social media general election. It'll be where young people look for their their news because they don't watch mainstream news, but I did as a kid growing up. It was so normal to come downstairs and see I think it is what whatever would have been Good Morning Britain or BBC News on. And that's what I would watch. And I always wanted to be involved in politics in some way. But my family history probably led me up to that. So I am a child of first and second generation immigrants. Um My mum's from Indonesia where Democracy was not necessarily like a right. for my grandparents' lifetime death like definitely. It was something that you struggled to earn. When I used to go to Indonesia as a kid. access to free education, that access to free health care felt like. It was luxury because over there they don't have that. Like there are lots of children living without birth certificates, therefore not able to access. necessities that they need to live. And My grandfather actually escaped Nazi occupied Poland to come to the UK. So I learned lots of stories about World War Two and All of those things. kind of just made me who I am. And so there was no way that I was never gonna be involved in politics in some way growing up. It just Waiting for me to find my own path in it, I guess. And then you were working for the civil service. Now obviously there might be only so much you can say about that, but without uh getting yourself into trouble, I'm definitely not intending to see that. H how was the experience of working for for government? Do you know what I think It wasn't necessarily what I thought it was going to be. I went in thinking I want to go in because I want to make people's lives better. I want to do something that's gonna make the country better. But actually as a civil servant, you're taking direction from the top. And that doesn't mean you don't you necessarily agree with everything, right? Like I worked in Brexit for a long period of time and I was quite avidly a remainer. And so I found I found that challenging. And also there's some topics I just don't necessarily care about. So it doesn't feel the same the same kind of passions as the work I do now. In some roles I had when you could see real life impact in things that you were actually doing. It made things feel worthwhile. So I actually met Gina Martin. I I've we followed each other after my accident on Love Island, but I actually met her a few times w as a civil servant because when she was campaigning for the upskirting bill. I was working in the Spads office at the Justice Department at moment in time. So when I saw that bill. become legislation. It was like, okay, I can actually make a difference. But maybe I'm just in the wrong place for it. That's really interesting. And were you in the civil service when Dominic Cummings was attacking the civil service? Um No, I think I narrowly escaped that one. Um Believe it or not, I actually went on Love Island for a career break from the civil service. So people always find that as a very interesting fact. And that was the experience of Love Island. How much care are you given afterwards? 'Cause you talked about the kind of misogyny and um racial hate crime that you experience afterwards. Yeah. Is a program set up to kind of support people after? I think They try their best. They to tell me when I was going through the process the process of getting onto a show like that in the first place is incredibly gruelling. They don't make it easy because they they need to let you know that it's gonna be challenging when you leave. obviously you're not in control of the edit you're given. I wasn't happy with the edit I was given. I didn't feel like it was an accurate representation of me. can spike the hate and abuse you get. So it felt like when I was coming out trying to do violence against women and girls. Campaign work. and trying to show people who I really am. You always get stuck with the Love Island tagline. It felt when I was in there. I describe it to people as if it was a Covid lockdown, except I've taken away your access to the internet, I've taken away your hour, walk a day, books, music, everything. And it's like a social experiment. So you're not in control of your like mental and emotional faculties. And that's what makes the show interesting. So, you know, how you would deem a normal reaction to something isn't something you're gonna do because your emotions are unstable. So it's not something I would rush in to do again. Obviously I'm engaged now, so I wouldn't be doing it anyway, but um yeah, it's not an experience I I would I'd rush to do again. But I think that I don't have any regrets from it because I've managed to turn it around, but there is still a level level of misogyny, I believe, that I think if I found a cure to cancer, it wouldn't be Sharon Gafka finds a cure to cancer, it would be Love Island Sharing Gafka finds a cure to cancer. So there is unfortunately Nothing I can do for that to just disappear one day. And um this isn't necessarily my frame, but I'm thinking about people who haven't seen the show. Um you're someone who I presume would class themselves as a feminist. But like is there something inherently misogynistic about the show, or can you absolutely be a feminist and go on Love Island and and do what you're doing now? I think there's an Element of feminism in the sense that it's a choice. I made the choice to go on there. I think there is elements of it of it that is inherently misogynistic in a sense you are hit it against other women for the attention of men. Um which probably is the reason why my stint in there didn't last as long as some others 'cause that's not my whole MO, I'm really not that interested in it, which kinda defeats the point of the show itself. But I think my season in particular, the women representation or the women friendships that were there when I was there were so strong that it kind of made it hard to perform for what the show really wanted. And when you look at certain seasons of Love Island, actually what the women come out to do to go on and achieve outside of the stereotypical Love Islander label is amazing. There's lots of female campaign that have come from Love Island, that have gone on to do huge things in women's rights, in animal rights. You don't necessarily see that with men, which I think is a shame because Especially when talking about women's rights, you need male allies. For sure. So I think there's definitely two different pathways which I've seen for men and women coming out of the show as well. And so that's a really good link to the next area one to ask you about, which is about male allyship. Um so there's certain issues around women's rights and um feminism that when I'm asked as a politician I often just think I'd rather listen to the women and amplify their voices and make sure that they've got a microphone in front of them. There's other times where it feels like actually allyship is really important here. Um and as long as you're speaking with women and not for women, then that's the the root. For men who are listening to this or who want to be good allies, what what kind of advice or or suggestions would you make in terms of how to be a good ally? I think they're already doing something amazing by listening. Um, whenever I've gone to a gender based flights round table and I'm shocked to see men around the room, but they listen. that's something that's super important because when you're disclosing something, you usually disclose the women because they won't try and offer you a solution straight away. They just want to listen to what you've got to say and kind of r gau what you need from them at that moment. So You know, if we're gonna take it back to really basics. Your friends, your family members, all of them have experiences of some form of gender based violence, in whether it be physical or verbal. Or emotional. And I think actually having those conversations with those people to make it seem like it's not a distant statistic that this is something that affects everybody. It's actually even sad to say that you should only really that people should only be listened to if you And I actually think as well is that The Internet is a very challenging place right now, particularly for men. I think the algorithm can push you in a very, very negative way. And if there are Issu in your own life you look for someone to blame. And it tends to be women in certain areas. And I think it's about, you know. also challenging your male friends around you. Unfortunately, we live in a society where your male friend is more likely to respect you for saying something than they are for the woman that they are potentially cat calling in the street. And I think it's nice for them to just step in and check in on their friends and check in on their friends' behavior. 'Cause that's you know, every single perpetrator of very serious gender based violence doesn't just wake up one day and and commit what they've done, like the perpetrator against Sarah Everard. never just wake up one day. It was a small pattern of behavior that was persistently allowed to happen. that was completely unchecked, that ended in the result of Sarah Everard losing her life. You mentioned Sarah Everard. That's that leads me a little bit to uh how we make people safe and community policing and obviously policing is a contentious area, particularly around gender based violence. I suppose what are the police getting right, what they're getting wrong and and what needs to happen. It's unfortunate because it's when we say not all men, it's not all police officers. I've met some really remarkable police officers, but unfortunately They are tarnished by the ones that aren't very good and they're the ones that we hear about the most, particularly Zara Everard's case we heard about. all the police officers that were allowing. her perpetrators' behavior to happen, or if you look at the BBC Panorama into Charing Cross Police Station, for example. where I'd like to see policing go is that in areas that impact women, I'd like to see more female police officers with better training. be able to deal with very sensitive issues. I mean, I remember myself, a man attempted to sexually assault me on a train a couple of years ago. And when I disc when I reported that to the police, I had a male police officer which is It's fine. But he was consistently asking me questions that are completely irrelevant to Actually dealing. with the perpetrator and it felt like I was being victim blamed and shamed. And I think that's where the language the police also use is super important. So it I'd like to see more female police officers and and a lot better language and training. And you've done a lot of campaigning specifically on domestic violence. What would you want people to know, particularly around domestic violence? Um and how does that differ from kind of more broader forms of gender based violence? It's such an old fashioned view that we think gender based violence is is physical, that it's something you can see. Um, it's not anymore. with the rise of technology, unfortunately, domestic violence is taking a lot of different forms. And that is like part of my relationship with refuge that we we try to educate people on. Um actually at at International Women's Day, they released a really I found incredibly watched. movie, short film. Um, but it was so educational and so well done. And it was a an estate agent showing potential family around a new home. And it shows you all the ways in which women are actually unsafe in the home. Before I came here today, I actually was with the chair of Refuge Hetty and she's running the London Marathon for Refuge. And on the back of her cape is a hundred and ten butterflies that represent the hundred and ten women that have lost their life in the last year. She actually said to me. that are seventy five of those. were women that lost their life in home. So that's the the biggest part, right? It's also that We also tell people. Why don't you just leave? But if they're controlling your finances, your technology, your ability to to work. they've cut you off from your friends. You you can't leave. And the most dangerous time for women is actually when they decide that they're ready to leave, which is why services like refugees are so important. And I think that when people start to actually understand that. That's when we can help more women. And that we don't lose. those hundred and ten lives that we lost last year. again next year. I actually think it doesn't isn't that different from the rest of gender based violence. I think everything Kind of leads up to it. Perpetrators behaviour. Inside. home also replicates outside the home. But in just small microaggressive ways. So you don't necessarily see Perpetrator of domestic abuse. going to the pub and having fist fights every weekend. but they will have very misogynistic opinions. And they'll they'll be vocal about them. They'll make really r crude, rude jokes. I've I don't know why, but we've come to a stage where rape jokes in in some circles are still If you don't educate young boys before they're old enough. they will have some level of domestic abuse in their home, even if they don't recognize those behaviors themselves. And how much is the culture of so called banter a problem here? Because sometimes with groups with lads or not just lads grown men. They'll say they weren't being misogynist because sexist, they were bantering. How how do we tackle that? The topic of banter has been something that I've literally dealt with all my life. I was even as a teenager deemed the angry woman um by male um peers. And that's because I would tell them that I didn't find something funny. And I think if it happened in real life, if it's not funny, then it's not Panta. And I think that We always think, Well, boys should be boys or like, you know, they're just being young when actually these young men will go on to be politicians, police officers, teachers, doctors. And that we actually should take it seriously, look at the bigger picture. It goes back to what I was saying about perpetrators not waking up one day and committing the most heinous crimes. It starts off with banter. If it's stopped at banter, you could accept it as banter, but it doesn't. So I think it is about checking Checking your friends and checking the level of But I think it does Parenting is hard, right? I'm about to become a mum to a boy. And this is the thing that worries me the most. Parenting is already incredibly hard, but I do think that parents need to have a bit more input in what their children are seeing online. Cause even if you think, well, my boy won't be watching that, or my daughter won't be looking at that, they'll see it from their friends. So sitting down and having conversation. I already know. I've said it with my um When he's old enough. I will sit him down and have it have conversations with him before it gets to the point of seeing something or hearing something from his peers that he shouldn't. So that he knows. This is wrong. And it's not something that's funny and is allowed to just A lot of this uh sounds like um important and vital parenting and it's amazing that you're having this conversation with a little boy in your stomach. It's lovely. Um and some of it is about people educating their friends or calling out or calling in their friends. How much of it requires political intervention or actual legislation to to change laws or to change the way things are done as opposed to cultural change? I think it's it's a mixture of the two. I think that firstly I think there's lots of male politicians that should be better. Right. They should be setting an example. And I actually think that when you see them get away with it, it shows to other people if they can get away with it, then why can't I? But actually w going back to when we were talking about online safety and me being concerned about what my son will potentially see in the future. we've left the online space to be so unregulated and so open and free for so long. that it's almost like the cat is out of the bag and it's like, how can you put that back in now? And I think that it needs to be to the point where we get ahead of it or we s we try and look at things later down the line and be more proactive rather than reactive. And my issue is, and I've said it a number of times. Is that this? Nobody disagrees with that people should be safe online. I think you'd have to be some kind of crazy to think that children shouldn't be safe when they're online. This government has such a big majority. I don't understand why it takes so long. for you to try and get these things through when nobody really disagrees with it, particularly not in your own party. So for me to have to constantly get stories. And examples and women saying I don't know what to do in my inbox. as a girl from Love Island instead of a politician's email inbox as a case worker. That's something that's really terrifying for me as well. Why are we not Being more accessible. to the people that need us. And that it it becomes reliant on on people like me to try and hold it up. Yesterday I had a pretty awful interview with a right wing journalist who I won't name because they're not they're not here to defend themselves. But one bit of the interview that I thought was particularly uncomfortable was they were pushing the idea of violence against women and girls, but they were using it as a frame for anti migration. Rhetoric. Yeah. And I know what my answer is and I'm happy to to give that answer again, but I'm just really interested in how you you kind of deal with this. Particularly when people are trying to stoke hatred towards migrants, uh refugees or asylum seekers, and they're doing it in the name of stopping gender based violence. Firstly, it's actually disgusting because Uh I was explaining to you the time that I some a man tried to sexually assault me on a train. I had lots of support and the moment I referenced his ethnicity. all of a sudden I'm not believed because it didn't fit their narrative. So If your story doesn't fit the narrative, they don't care. So it's obviously not. in the name of protecting women and girls. The other thing I have as well as an issue is that we know gender based violence isn't An imported issue. I think it was only fifty years ago. This year. that marital rape was made illegal. In Great Britain. Like in my mum and dad's lifetime. Which is absolutely insane. So for you to sit there and say this is an importer is wrong. When we look at the Netflix show adolescence I actually don't think it's that far from the truth. When I look at my inbox and I look at the types of Lads are Interacting with me. saying the most violent things to me. Then no. immigrants are not important. And it allows that the people that are doing it to get away with doing it because we're not putting The focus that we need to on them. I remember and I will never forget it, the worst message I ever received. through Instagram after Love Island was voice notes from a group of five lads in Scotland. And White. saying that they would rape me, they would murder me, if they saw me, all these things. And if we constantly focus on Migration. Those lads will be allowed to get away with sending those messages and they'll think it's okay because they're not seen as part of the problem because their their skin colour is a certain way. And I think that's what really hurt survivors I speak to. that it's like, well if my perpetrator doesn't fit that person's narrative. the my pain isn't acknowledged and real. And I think that those people actually need to sit down with actual survivors. and understand what they've gone through. And that it's Men. Men from a certain background. I'm so sorry you've been through that experience, but that's an understatement. Um, I obviously experience lots of abuse and hatred online, but I also know that it's when I compare it to my female colleagues, it's a very different type of abuse. I'm often aware when I'm encouraging people to get into politics, particularly young women. that we're encouraging them to enter a space where this just does exist. And of course it shouldn't, but the fact is it actually does. What would you say to young women, in fact, women of any age that maybe have been quiet or not getting involved because they don't feel like they can put up with this level of abuse? I think it is really scary and sometimes it makes me sceptical about how far in politics I'm willing to go. um particularly now if I'm having a family, like I don't want to put a target on their backs, right? And that's how it would feel. I think that's where m male allyship is super important. If you feel supported by your male colleagues, it feels like water off a duck's back. It's not, but it feels more bearable and easy to deal with. Despite all of the things that have happened to me since leaving Love Island and being more vocal. They only happen because I get more vocal. So I know after doing this podcast I'll probably get some something in my inbox after doing some media rounds. I'll get something in my own box. Because they want to keep you quiet. They don't want to see you in positions of power. They don't want to see you taking up their space. So they're trying to do it to keep you down. And my biggest thing is Remembering why. I remember why my reason is for being involved in politics and it's not. For me. It's for the survivors I speak on behalf of. And when you have your why. and you remember that this is somebody that's just trying to keep you down and keep you out of a space that you deserve to be in. give you the motivation, the power you need to think, no, I deserve to be here and I'm going to stay here. So beautifully articulated. There's also an organization who want to shower at this moment called Electra, who are a cross party organization, but they work with women who might want to get further involved with politics and they do training, also provide money of support resources for if women can't afford to go to Hustings or to go campaign. And but also they have a lot of conversations like this too. Uh so just wanted to shout out Elector. Um in terms of where you think you might be going next in politics, what what do you have plans or the the things you want to do? I don't know. I feel like politics is so fluid, right? Um for a long time, I know a lot of young people felt feel the same as that I felt politically homeless. Um I didn't know where I sat um until more recently. Um until I became a member of the Green Party. Welcome. I don't know. I don't know where this is going, but it's okay well not a party political podcast. No, I I felt politically homeless for a long time. So I think that That actually makes it a bit more difficult to kind of see where you should branch out and go. But yeah, I think you know, you never never say never and and watch the space, I guess. So without putting you on pressure on on the podcast for the party leader, but would you consider running for parliament in the future? Um I think so. I think, you know, you'll never find a party where you agree with everything. Right. But I think that For me I need to know that if I was going to run in parliament, that I'm gonna be behind a leader who is very intersectional with their feminism that won't ever make me question my intersectionality and and the women that I represent and support. And So yeah. We'll we'll see. Amazing. And and you mention intersectionality there. And very often we have this constant pitting of women's rights against trans people's rights. Just to see where you kind of sit with that. No, for me, trans women are women. I've always said that, I will always say that. And I don't understand where the obsession with what people have in their pants has come from. Like it for me it just is extremely bizarre. And I will never look at a trans woman and think that they're any less of a woman just because they don't Born the same way I am. It's it it's ridiculous. And I think that the whole I get upset when I see the bathroom debate because Lots of my trans friends. felt like they could no longer walk out in society and and live their life. That's all they want. to live their life right. They don't want to cause harm to anybody. Some of them stopped going to the gym because they didn't feel comfortable. Some of them stopped like going out and socialising. And that breaks my heart because They're lovely people. They've done nothing wrong. And we forget that. Gen gender based violence happens to trans women too. These aren't women that are ex excluded from the conversation. That's why. my intersectionality is so important. I can't sit here and call myself a feminist if I'm gonna pick and choose which types of women I represent. They are all women. And that includes trans women. And more widely outside of the issue of gender based violence and and women's rights, are there are there other issues that you're planning to campaign on? Or have you very much chosen and it would be completely legitimate to say I've got quite enough doing this? Yeah, I mean it is a a handful, I feel like, with gender based violence once you unpick one thing, you kind of end up down a rabbit hole. But for me, I've always been really keen on educational reform. When I went into civil service, I always said my dream department was either justice or education, because I think how we educate our young people has a massive impact on the future of the country. And that also feeds into to gender based violence. Um I've spoken lots about how sex education needs reforming, 'cause the children I speak to now, or the teenagers I speak to now Um, and there was nothing intersectional about my sex education whatsoever. So you're kind of left the dark to figure it out on when the growth of the internet. Like it just becomes Crazy. So yeah, for me, I I would love to to be part of like educational reform somewhere down the line. I love this. I've love this conversation so much and I really hope to see you pursuing uh any political kind of ambition that you might have and most importantly getting the work done on the campaigns. People have heard from this and they want to know more about you. I know you have a podcast. Yes. And so I can ask you about your podcast, what is it and what happens on it. We've had a little bit of a break, but actually I think the episodes are still relevant even if they were recorded two, three years ago. Yes, unfortunately. So um it's called Girls Know Nothing. It's a business and career based podcast. Um I actually talk to women about their lives and what led them to the careers that they they have now. Um, because unfortunately, regardless of what industry you're in, whether you are an adult content creator or an MP, you share a similar experience in the fact that you've had to overcome misogyny and sexism and for some people ableism and racism in order to get to where you are. And also I think that Because the internet is a highlight reel. It doesn't actually show you the nitty gritty of where somebody has got to or how they've got there. So if you were like, Well, I want to be an MP, how do I do it? that conversation's already there, ready for you to press play. And something you're saying to me just before we came on there, so I hope you don't mind me repeating, is that you found out that lots of people who watch and listen to that podcast actually live in places with higher gender inequality? Yeah, so I podcasting this expensive this is an expensive hobby. So actually when I was writing a pitch deck to pitch to sponsors, I was looking at the country breakdown. Obviously majority of the audience is women. um I fully expect to see that majority of the women a around my age. What actually blew my mind was that it wasn't just something that was listened to in the UK or the US where Love Island is a big thing. So people would might recognize my name. Actually, there are lots of countries in Africa in the Middle East where gender equality is a problem. that actually I've got quite a high listenership as well. And that really tells us something that that's why feminism is so important and why intersectionality is so important because It's not just a problem here. It's a a problem across the world and women from all walks of life have very similar lived experiences. Totally. And finally, if people want to know more about you, how do they find you? I am chronically online. So if you want to know more about me, I'm big oversharer, so definitely on um on my Instagram, it's very original username, Sharon Gafka. Um but you'll you'll find me there and I'm a chronic over sharer, so. Well thank you so much for coming on. Love the conversation. Thank you for having me.