Culture as a Political Tool

I was really proud a few years ago to be arrested with Extinction Rebellion. I'm so proud of the activist tradition within the Green Party, both in England and Wales, but frankly all around the world. I'm also really proud of Greens across the world, many of whom who have been in government, who are there ready to bring in change and make it happen. One brilliant example right now is in Spain in coalition with Pedro Sanchez, is a green eco-socialist movement. People often talk to me about what would compromise look like if Greens were in government? What does a coalition look like? And so it's really exciting to talk to an eco-socialist today about how you hold your space to make it clear what you stand for and what are your crucial red lines. Here is Ernest Ortesen, who is minister This episode is sponsored by Crowdfunder . Bring your bold idea to life at crowdfunder.co.ek forward slash Five hundred orders a month was manageable. Five thousand is madness. Embrace intelligent order fulfillment with shipStation. The only platform combining order management, warehouse workflows, inventory, returns, and analytics in one place. What used to take five separate tools, ShipStation does in one. Go to ShipStation .com and use code START to try SHIPSTIN free for 60 days. Hey! Did you know that GIFGAF offer a wide range of refurbished phones from the biggest brands. With GIFGAF, you'll always get high-quality refurbished phones at a lower price. These refurbished phones work just like new. The only difference is the price tag. Plus, at GiftGAF you'll get a minimum 12-month warranty. Save money and it's a more sustainable choice too, because you're helping reduce waste. Take a look at their wide range of refurbished phones at giftgaff.com. Terms apply. See giftga.com slash refurbished. Ernest, thank you so much for coming on. Thanks for having me. You're our first government minister on the podcast. So this is a big moment for us. Oh okay. Well it's me to be in your podcast, Zach. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. Now you're culture minister. Um as a former theatre actor, I have to talk to you about culture, but I I want to begin with Spain. Um as someone who doesn't know a huge amount about Spanish politics, I know what what I observe. The biggest thing I think about your government recently is actually the leadership it's shown on international affairs. So both in terms of recognizing Palestine but also in standing up to Donald Trump um removing the use of US airspaces and the use of US military on Spanish soil. Which is a position that I strongly wanted the UK to take, which we haven't taken. Yeah. And I found myself I kept referring to Spain. How's that position gone down in Spain? And how has it been able to hold? Look, uh, you need to understand Spain has a very strong memory of what happened in two thousand and four. When we illegally invaded uh Iraq together with your Tony Blair and with Bush, society was very much against that war. There was a huge demonstration in the street and going around. And we managed to change the government mainly because of that illegal war of aggression and our troops were removed from Iraq at that time. So I'm saying that because there's a very strong memory of Spanish society that we were already once trapped in into an illegal war of aggression and we are not going to go down that path again. So that's why I mean the Spanish society is very strongly against this kind of wars of aggression that is happening in Iran. I'm very proud that we have taken as a government a very strong stance. And yes, indeed, we have also decided not to allow the US to use the bases, they have two bases in southern Spain for the illegal attacks. Of course this has created uh diplomatic troubles with the current administration, but I'm very proud that we're standing on the side of uh international law and the UN system. And it's the same a bit with Palestine. I mean w what we are defending in Palestine is international law, and we are very strongly the uh saying that uh what is going on in Palestine is com completely unacceptable, that is uh there's a genocide going on. I mean we are really taking a position which I I know at the moment is follow uh massively in the world. But I'm very proud of what we're doing at international level really. Aaron Ross Powell And how is Spanish media taking this? Because in the UK, the the thought to me that if we had denied Donald Trump access to our military, the media would have just gone wild. How are you dealing with the the Spanish media, who I presume are owned by similar billionaires to the UK media? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well of course no we're we're massively attacked for that, uh for for certain uh media and uh right wing media in also in our country But also look it's very straightforward. The agreements that we have with the US they very basically state that the basis can be used uh only for missions that are covered under international law or UN. Otherwise, they need to ask specifically for mission to Spain. So that's why we are able to deny that. And uh well of course that that has created lots of uh of tensions and Donald Trump has threatened with new tariff threats and things like that. I have to tell you all also very honestly, so far nothing has really happened. And on the other hand, I think that what has happened in Europe is that Spain has taken that position and then other countries that were more reluctant to take that position are now following. So more and more I think that we have opened the door for other European countries to start saying no. And at a certain moment with Donald Trump we know that the only way it works is to say no. All these appeasement strategies that we have seen in the last months are complete failure. It doesn't work. At a certain moment we need to stand up and defend international law. And that links in with a wider question that we both have as progressives. We're seeing the rise of the far right, including here in the UK, we have Nigel Farage and reform for the for the right and Tommy Robinson marching through the streets. And I know that you have similar problems in Spain. What role do you think we have internationally as progressives to make sure that there's solidarity to stand against the far right? Well, and that that that's one reason why I'm very happy to be here with you because I follow a lot of your and everything that is doing and that that you are doing. Well, I think there are two things that are very important. Firstly, I think it is a moment where the wars of aggression come back in the international arena. It's very important that we internationalists progressive, that we work together. That we are not isolated, that we work together. One of the things that I liked the most in the last months uh was when we marched in Budapest, all progressive people around Europe just to say no to Orban when he wanted to ban the LGBTI demonstration there. So this kind of solidarity at the moment is very much needed. And the fact that we are having this conversation and other competition among progressives in in denouncing illegal wars of aggression, the genocides in Palestine, et cetera, I think it's very important. But the other thing I think is I guess a moment where we need to discuss also among progressive how do we fight the rising far right in our countries. You have a problem, we have a big problem also in Spain, I have to say we have a rise and far right. And one of the things I have followed you most is that idea that we need again to talk to people, to talk to to talk about housing, to talk about inequalities, to talk about cost of living. I think we need to reconnect with people and particularly to people in in certain neighborhoods that have been, after years and years of austerity, completely abandoned in our society and completely decoupled from politics, which is what also ha has been happening. So one of the things and I love to see a green politician doing that is really we need to speak to those people again. And this is something we need to learn from each other as well. I think the label that maybe you describe for your politics is eco-socialist. Absolutely. What is eco socialism for you? Eco socialism for me is to understand that both the climate crisis and the neoliberal politics are both affecting the lives of the working class in our societies. And we need to understand that both fighting climate change and fighting inequalities fighters, those big billionaires, are at the end the same battle. There's one sentence in one of your videos that I saw that I loved it when you said the same system that is So basically being an eco socialist is to understand that both fights are completely interlinked. Look, very modestly I have to tell you, when we arrive in government as a junior partner of the Social Democrats, our main main concern was indeed ecological transformation, but also to start taking decisions that affect the most deprived in our society. We have raised minimum statutory wage more than sixty percent in Spain. That was very, very important. That was very, very important. And there's and and particularly for women, because we all know that it's mainly women who are receiving the minimum statutory salary in a country. So it's sixty percent of increase. It's very, very important. We have created a reform of the labour law enabling permanent contracts where we had in the past eighty percent of newly created contracts that were precarious and temporary, which was And also we are trying to do politics and policies that affect a cost of living. And particularly the big challenge that we have ahead of us now is housing. So housing is really an issue. So what does it mean to be an eco socialist in the twenty first century is to understand that the fight for our lives is the fight against climate change and the fight for social justice. Well I think you beautifully put it and I'm I'm aware we're wearing the same costume as well. My team told me just take off the the the the costume when you will do the podcast. No, it's great. So I started the podcast by being complimentary about Prime Minister Sanchez and obviously you are in a coalition That doesn't mean you have to agree on everything and I think we definitely agree with him on international affairs. I know there are points of disagreement and housing is is one of them. Look, we have a major problem with housing 'cause uh eighty percent of the uh investment in residential housing in Spain is done by foreign investment who is which is basically treating housing as a financial asset. And this is the same I assume it's the same in London, it's the same in Paris because this isn't this is a global issue. So we really have a problem with that. We have a policy that we share with the social democrats, which is to build more and more public housing, which we agree. I mean in Spain we only have two point five percent of the housing is in public hands, which is very limited. We are working in a long term plan to build public housing, we agree, but then we have a strong disagreement in measures that are more targeted on market intervention. So for instance we are very much pushing to forbid having foreign investment schemes buying or investing in housing in Spain. We have other countries that have created schemes at national level to prevent this kind of investment to happen and we need to forbid that investment in Spain. And also we want to have a mandatory cap of the rents. One of the m things that we are most discussing now at the moment is that we want a mandatory prolongation of the rents in order to stop uh housing rents to increase because we have increases uh I mean this year we have I think three hundred thousand contracts that will be renewed and people will have to face uh increases in their rents of three hundred four hundred euros for many of them it will mean they would have to leave. So this capping is absolutely important. So these kind of measures that are direct market intervention, sometimes it's true the social democrats are more reluctant to take. And there we have uh differences at the coalition level, yes we do. And I suppose asking you these questions as someone who maybe might be interested in coalition or supplying confidence in the future, how do you maintain your own sense of identity and be really clear what you stand for, what you've needed to compromise on and what you won't compromise on because it's unacceptable. How do you how do you juggle those bulls? Yeah. Well it's not an easy one. Uh I mean, of course when you're in a coalition government, you have to compromise. I think it was a wise decision to enter government and to be in a coalition. Because sometimes the social democrats they treat us as they j unior partners. They d they only want their votes but they want to be in charge. And this is not how it works any longer. I mean not in Spain, not in any other country. I mean the social democrats have been for the last decades applying neoliberal policies. Many, many people do not believe in their solutions any longer and in f they look for other political options. And I think in that sense, when we have uh enough strength, we need to be in government. And look, many of the labor policies that I just mentioned to you , that was only possible with our ministers in government. I can also tell you we have the the health ministry is also in the hands of one of our green colleagues. So she's basically developing new laws to protect public health to stop privatization in some areas. So she's doing a fantastic job. This happens because we are in charge in those ministries. So I think the being in the government, I think it's an important issue. And then of course what is very important is to have at the beginning of the government a very, very concrete governmental agreement where the issues that you want to have are very clearly stated. And then of course it creates fractions. That is life. So one of the important things that the junior coalition partner needs to do is not to forget that we are an independent political project. And in in some areas you will not agree with your partner. And that creates tensions of course. But those tensions I think are sometimes manageable. But the most important thing is not to lose your political profile. That is very important. And so was there an explicit agreement that you could disagree in public, for instance? I mean fighting is one thing, but just saying this is our position, this is the government's position, and it's fine we disagree. Aaron Powell Yes, we have had that in the past. And for instance, I can tell you the measures that uh trying to for bid, as I said before, foreign investment in housing in our country, the social democrats do not agree on that in Spain. I can also tell you the very, very fast increase of the minimum statutory salary that we had in Spain, the former Social Democratic econom minister was not in favor of that. He was using the kind of argument that this is going to kill our competitiveness, that this is not gonna work, you cannot go that fast. And that created tensions too. But in order for those policies to advance, it's better to be in charge of the portfolios. That is also very important. I think that we have we we would have been less successful just being in a position of supporting the government from the outside. That is very clear for me. And as eco socialists, obviously a huge part of our programme is about tackling the climate crisis. Absolutely. But it is also that we make sure that in government we get the policies we need on a a just transition or uh investing in renewable energy. What is your government managing to achieve are you as a party on tackling the climate crisis? Well I think that there are two ways of tackling the climate crisis. There is one way of tackling the climate crisis that I do not agree on that. You need to engage with citizens by trying to create a just transition by fighting climate change, improving their working conditions and the cost of living. That is very clear. So how do you do that? Indeed, public transport, this is extremely important. And we have been fighting for uh for free public transport in Spain. During the beginning of the war with Ukraine we took very strong measures in guaranteeing public transport for everybody and that was very, very Also you need to invest in clean energy in housing and also we need to be aware that when you invest in clean energy in housing, your energy bill massively goes down. And this is something you also t need to tell citizens that invest ing in green policies for housing it also have a positive effect in an energetic bills. So these kind of policies is the way we see and we think we need to tackle the climate crisis. So I think that building a fair transition is the game changer and is what ca can really work. Otherwise you can derail the transition. If people do not follow you, the transition will derail. And in Spain I think we have been more or less successful in that, yes. It's such a breath of fresh air listening to you 'cause obviously these are conversations I have including in the studio all the time. Yeah. But to know someone is in government with what I would say is basic common sense. Yeah. Saying we're pushing for this rather than for corporate profit or for donations. We're doing this 'cause it's the right thing to do. It's it's it's so lovely to hear it. It feels a bit surreal, but pinch me a little bit. Okay. It also strikes me too that maybe it's because of the questions I've asked, but you've avoided what we would call in this country the culture war type stuff. Yes, yes, yes. Like you've just talked about basic cost of living and inequality. I've noticed Spain has had more positive stances on things like migration than the UK has. How's that conversation been to navigate? Yeah. Well, the conversation sometimes it's uh it's complicated to navigate but I think that we took the correct choice. The correct choice with when it comes to migration is first to tell the truth about what happens with migration. And at the end of the day, you cannot allow the far right to start saying that migrants are responsible for problems in social services. No look, the problems with social services is lack of investment. The regions in Spain are in the hands of the conservatives and they have cut it massively investment in health and education. And you cannot blame the migrants for that. You cannot have a society where public uh services are cut. On the other hand, the ultra billionaires are gaining more and more money and you blame the migrants. So that these kind of conversations we have taken And this has worked. And we just have taken the measure to make legal more than half a million people in Spain who are working i irregularly in our country and living irregularly in our country, which was a shame because these was people working in our country and contributing to the wealth of the country without no social protection, with no labor rights at all. That was really a shame. And we have taken the decision to regularize them and And uh of course this has created a strong debate against the far right. But I think that in those kind of debates, in this kind of cultural wars, when you stand principled is when you win. This is my opinion. And for the moment the debate I have to tell you goes pretty well It sounds like a parallel universe I'm listening to because obviously we have labor in this country as social democrats who have been so toxic on migration and actually just a measure as simple as whether it's an amnesty or regularizing people to get into the system, I just think it's something they would just never accept. No. Do you think it's just a different culture in Spain or is it just been a different type of conversation? I'm kind of listening, thinking how can we have the conversation and the respect that you've had in Spain and in this country? Trevor Burrus But look look at the social democrats in Europe that have taken the decision to uh imitate the right when it comes to migration. It's a massive failure. Absolutely. Everywhere. Everywhere it's a massive failure. If you begin running after the arguments of your opponents, you're going directly to the defeat. No, on that we need to be very, very strongly defending the principles. And also I have to tell you in Spain we have the memory in two thousand and four we already took the decision to regularize more than in that time it was even more, eight hundred thousand people. And it was very successful. And those are people, they are our neighbors, working in our communities going, to schools, it worked pretty well. So I think um at the end of the day in those kind of debates, and you do that very successfully also in your campaigns, we need to very explicitly say that the problem will never be the workers in our communities. That you ha we have had in the last years a massive amount of wealth being amassed by the ultra billionaires that are really cutting of social services. And here is where the problem lies. I think I was looking at the statistic. I think that uh since two thousand twenty the wealth of the ultra billionaires in the world has increased for more than eighty percent. And here is where the problem lies. We can never accept that this is put into the shoulders of migrants. I mean this is very very clear. And a few years ago, I think it's still going on you have the solidarity tax in Spain, which was looking at tackling inequality. Trevor Burrus Well in Spain we do still have a lot to do with with tax. It's true that we have created a tax for wealth in Spain. Why tax for wealth? Because what what happened in the past is that we had regional taxes for wealth that were dismantled by the right and then we decided to create a nationwide wealt h tax that has been working pretty well. We still have a lot to do in taxation uh in Spain. We still have a system where where labor is much more taxed than the capital profits. It's the same everywhere in Europe. But we are more and more trying to to tax wealth. But also on wealth taxation I have to tell you, it is very important that we cooperate at European level. Because it is true with tactic that capital flights, we know how that works. And uh we have also found difficulties in taxing wealth uh when it's not coordinated at European level. And that's why I think that we on that we need to be m uh more and more coordinated to really have taxation at the international level. In the last years we there there have been efforts to create wealt And now a quick break with our friends from Crowdfunder. This episode is brought to you by There's a street in Walthamstow where nobody used to talk to each other. Old Victorian houses freezing in winter and gas bills going through the roof. Then Hilary and Dan at number forty four had an idea. What if they turned the whole street into a power station? Solar panels on every single roof. So they got their neighbours together and they fundraised for it. And at the same time, they built a community. Together they raised over 3 50,000 pounds on crowdfunding. 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And at the same time, I have a sensitivity or respect to people who are on the left who point out, you know, the European Union is a deeply neoliberal organisation that was problematic ten years ago when we chose to Brexit, but has arguably got even worse, with some rare exceptions like Hungary moving in maybe a better direction than than Orban. There's still a lot of um uh creeping of the right across Europe. My argument I suppose would be I would rather be in there to be able to challenge that rather than be watching it from the from the outside. Absolutely, absolutely. No, look, I think that uh we progressives I think we need to understand that the main battle that we have is with international capital. International capital flying and ultra billionaires amassing uh huge amounts of wealth. This is probably the fight of the twenty first century together with the fight against And I think for that we need strong international and European institutions. more successful if we manage to have strong European taxes that can really tax wealth. Also when I mean if we discuss for example technology and we discuss the ultra big tech companies that come from the US, if we want to better regulate them, we need to do that at European level. So that's why I'm a strong defender of the idea of having a strong European Union, strong European cooperation, because I see it as a way of creating more uh instruments to fight international capital and to really regulate international capital. And that is why I would love to have the UK back with us at the EU level and trying to build a better Europe. Because it's true that in the past the European Union has not only been uh serving those goals but it has a it has acted otherwise and I was a member of the European Parliament when the austerity policies were massively imposed in Greece and that was terrible. And it's true that for for some years the European Union worked as a machine for imposing austeritarian policies. It also happened in Spain. In Spain during the financial crisis, the European Union imposed budgetary cuts and austerity policies. But I think well that ha changed the a bit in last years, but the most important is that we need to be within the EU to have the correct policies to be applied and to build the really this public power that can face international capital. And there's the campaign organization in the UK but, it's across Europe called Another Europe is Possible. Yes. Which imagines another European Union if there were more left progressive socialists running things. Again are we back to kind of what international solidarity looks like in terms of supporting each other. Yeah. No, no, no, absolutely. No. And uh and by the way, I when I was at the European Parliament, uh you uh uh Greens from the UK you had fantastic MEPs. I remember very well Gene Lambert and uh and others who are really, really fantastic. Maurice Cot Gator, who was really a good friend of mine, and she was uh working with me on economics. And basically we were hand in hand working together in order to trying to build a strong taxation system at European level. And that we were working together with you guys. So I I think that uh also when when talking about having more international cooperation, having you more engaged with us benefits of artificial intelligence, but the risks as well. How are you as culture minister kind of navigating the role of artificial intelligence, particularly in the creative sectors, where I know musicians, actors, artists are increasingly worried? All these AI language models have So there was nobody asked them whether they wanted the works to be used to train AR models. Nobody paid them a cent. There was no transparency at all about what kind of works were used to train those models. So at the end of the day, what happened, and this is something I'm I'm very strongly advocating for real change here as a culture minister is that the big tech companies are making huge profits using works of our creators all over Europe, also here in the UK. So we are working also again at EU level to have a strong framework regulating that. What what do we want? We want first authorization. I don't want no big tech company using any song, any book to train their AI models without their permission. Transparency. I think creators have the right to know whether their works have been used to train AI models. And thirdly, remuneration. So if they allow their works to be used to train AI models, they need to be paid. And at the moment it's the law of the jungle. It's not regulated at all and we have all those big companies making huge amounts of profit on the shoulders of the our creative sectors. And I'm very, very much working on that at the EU level. And I think you have these debates in the UK as well, because I think that all both cultural sectors in the UK and Spa Okay. Genuinely believe culture secret ary is I don't know the most important, but most powerful position in terms of how we're going to get ourselves out of the mess, the various messes we have. And that's because I think so much of this comes down to storytelling, with storytelling of who we are I feel it very strongly. And I have to tell you that I feel that the most important wall that we can build against the arrival of the far right in in the Spanish government is our culture. Our culture, the capacity that our culture can have to create stories around fundamental values linked to social justice, to freedom, to gender equality. And I have to tell I'm very I'm very honored as a Spanish culture minister that our cultural sector is very much engaged. It's very much engaged. As a culture minister I'm, very proud to see Javier Bardem in Hollywood fighting for the Palestinians. And I can tell you we have uh our cinema is uh particularly engaged in defending fundamental values of social progress, and I agree with you, this is probably because at the end of the day politics are just a translation of the values and of the cultural waves that go uh through society. And if we want to hold and if we want to continue building a uh a progressive society, we I'm proud to be a minister of a country where I think culture is very much engaged. Yes. And I don't know if you have the same parallel in Spain, but we have a real issue in the UK that um the stories that are told are very rarely by working class communities mm because of the fact that whether it's drama schools or art schools they've become increasingly expensive. So the people who write the stories or commission the films or in fact are able to produce their own things. There's a certain privilege to be able to have a podcast studio and have a microphone in front of you. It is. And uh for for many years uh cultural politics in Spain was bas ically targeting making culture consumption easier. But that was it. There was nothing about creation. And it's true that we have developed certain policies to allow certain communities that have always been excluded from cultural creation to be able to do that. We have some particular programs of cultural creation in deprived communities for every young people in Spain when they arrive at the at their maturity, we give them a voucher uh for culture. And we have changed that voucher for them also to be able, for instance, not only to buy a book or not only to go to a cinema, but also if you want to buy yourself a guitar, if you want to create, or buy yourself a microphone if you want to organize a podcast. And we are trying that these vouchers are also arriving to the most deprived communities in our country. So yes, I think there we we need uh to give opportunities for everybody to participate in cultural creation We are also trying now to support some particular associations that do cultural creations in some particular neighborhood. So I think this is indeed very, very important. So we cannot allow to have culture to be seen just as a as a consumption tool and then creation is just for one small elite. And this is what we need to break. And finally, uh we're on a podcast which is about bold politics. Yeah. What does bold politics feel like to you and and where where do you find hope? Because we could easily get into a very kind of despairing conversation about inequality, the state of wars happening around the world and and the state of um polycrisis. But where do you find your hope from? Where do I find hope? Okay, I would say I've seen more and more in young people engaged in politics. Some years ago, I saw lots of young people engaged against the climate crisis and we had all the Green Wave and the Friday's for future a movement that was very important. And I have to tell you that during the last month I have seen also lots of young people engaged against the genocide in Palestine. So f really feeling this internationalism. There's a general feeling in and and this is some very much discussed in certain media that uh the young people do not care about politics or they are turning massively to the far right. I have the the feeling that that is not correct. I mean we have more and more young people engaged in in in politics, in associations. Also if you see the housing crisis in Spain, all the housing movements are led by young people. And here is where I think uh I find my hope. And then I find my hope also in seeing so particular political experiences in some countries in Europe where I think there's very positive developments happening. And you are leading one of the most important develop political developments as a Green Party leader at the moment in the UK. This gives us hope. Because everybody talks about reform and about the the possibility that the reform comes to government. But when we saw the success of the Green Party in the last local elections here in the UK, that gave us hope too. So thanks for that. Aaron Powell Thank you. I mean I massively appreciate that. And as I think I've said a couple of times in this podcast, I feel incredibly hopeful that I think lots of people associate the Green Party with uh activism and community organizing, which absolutely is a huge part of us. But I want people to increasingly associate us with governance and governing and actually making the the decisions to to run a country and to have someone who's the living embodiment of that is is really exciting. I said final question, but actually you've sparked one more final question. Okay. Because I would say one of the biggest challenges um I'm experiencing at the moment is the role of the traditional media. Yeah. In terms of for a long time they were smearing kind of the message, which is about wealth tax and inequality. And now that they've realized they can't smear that because it's incredibly popular the wealth tax. Yeah. They're starting to kind of attack me as an individual. And and that's fine. That's you know I saw that. They did the same in Spain with us. Right. Sure. I imagine so. And I think it's the most common story as old as time that you go for the message and then if the message becomes popular, then you go for the messenger. How much are you thinking about alternative ways to connect that kind of go round mainstream media? Because I'm presuming you have the same problem that, you know, the media aren't just kind of allowing you to say your message unfiltered. No no no absolutely and uh we are of course using more and more alternative ways of uh of communicating with people. We try to have a more direct communication with citizens using all the tools that we have. And particularly when we want to pass certain messages. To put you an example, going back to housing, it's sometimes difficult in some media in Spain to make your message pass when you want to talk about uh about uh cutting uh speculative investments in housing because the b the the interests that are behind those media do not allow certain messages to pass massively. So these kind of issues are very common in Spain and other countries and we need to find other ways to engage with the with citizens. Thankfully in today's society we you have all kinds of ways of getting to to citizens, no. And again to come back to your previous comment, indeed we have uh also uh lived that in Spain uh for many, many years that all kinds of campaigns of uh digital harassment were created and organized against our leaders just because uh they defending certain ideas. So when I saw the different Twitter attacks but