Final Advice and Closing Thoughts

One of the things I love about Bob politics is the amount of policy experts we get on to talk about their area. Today we're going to be doing things differently though because we are going to be talking to policy experts, but experts in their own lived experience. There's a lot of conversations in the country right now and for the past decade or two about care, why is it not funded properly? Why is it failing people ? And what could be done differently? But rather today than talk to solely a policy expert, I wanted to make sure that we platform policy experts in this area, people who are actually or have been carers themselves. So today I'm delighted to be joined in a different studio by JC, by Edward, and by Isabelle. This episode is sponsored by Crowdfunder. Bring your bold idea to life at crowdfunder. co. uk forward slash bold. And to kick us off, I'm going to ask each of you in turn to tell us your own story and your own words and share as much or as little as you'd like. I'm JC. I cared for my mum for twelve years up until recently, so technically I'm a former carer . My background is nursing and yeah, it's been quite a journey. Thank you very much, Jacy. So I'm Edward . I 'm twenty six and I take care of my mum who has Lepus. I'm Spout and I care for my partner who's got a muscular skeletal condition and a neurological condition. And we've done that for the last four or five years. Thank you. And then just sticking with you for a moment, Isabelle, I mean, it's a very open question, but what's it like to be a carer? What's for kind of the impact of it on you? There's so much to say. It has been it is rewarding. People do say it's rewarding and it is rewarding. I've learned so much from it. I'm kind of just towards the end of training as a psychologist. So I think I'm a naturally sort of caring person and it's I've learnt so much as a psychologist in that way but it's incredibly challenging and isolating at times. I think it's not something that I expected to happen and my partner got progressively ill kind of over a couple of years. It took a long time to identify kind of what was wrong with him and there was very little support and there hasn't been that much support even as we've kind of known what's going on. So yeah, it's tough but I'm kind of I've learned a lot from it. I think JC and I were talking about how you know when you're kind of I think now I've kind of got used to caring a little bit more and it's a little bit more stable , you're able to look back and kind of see what you've gained from it. But there are points in it where you kind of just think , yeah, where do I go from here? Who can support me? And it feels really hard to find out what can be done . Yeah . And Tracey, you said you were caringry for a month for twelve years. How was that? Well it was it was tough but I think a lot of the challenge was within myself internally. You know, my expectations I put on myself You've got your loved one there, you want to do the best for them . And you've got barriers that you face, you know, the system doesn't make it easy. Just coordinating appointments and everyone seems to be talking not liaising with each other. So you're repeating often repeating the same story . You want to get results, you want it's just a constant batt le. A lot of it was a battle, which looking back , I kind of resent now. That relationship I had with my mum with mother and daughter, I feel that was stolen a little bit because you're so consumed with the appointments, the, you know, fighting for things to be right and to be to be the best that they can be for your mum that you that relationship with mother and daughter is kind of a little bit blurred and you're you're a carer is very task orientated . So being with her that connection we had , I feel a lot of that was lost . Looking back , I really treasure the time we had together , but so much of caring is unseen and invisible . You know, the weight of that responsibility that we carry we carry internally. It's not seen, you know, the sleepless nights, the anxiety, the fear, the anticipation of that person not being well and you not you falling short of the mark . Those are the things that I struggled with a lot and it did have an impact on my mental health. And still five , five months after Mum has passed on , I'm still carrying that. And you said that it's often invisible and unseen. Am I right in thinking you didn't realize you're a carer until quite like you were caring but you didn't formally realize you're a care r. You know, I was working. I was a nurse. My thoughts of caring was very physically oriented, you know, doing physical, you know, personal care. For me, it was the emotional support and just coordinate in everything. You know, be aim is just to keep mum well and keep her happy and keep her enjoying an independent life . It's not really something that yeah you think about really am I a carer? And we're speaking today partly because we reached out to Carers UK an amazing organisation that link and provide support networks for carers. Is that how you then realized you were a formal carer or how did you realize did someone say to you one day, do you know you're a carer? Actually I was walking past my local carer centre, going to work and struggling , and struggling, but not knowing what I needed, but I was struggling. And there was there was a leaflet in the window. And I thought, actually , that's me. And I thought, Actually , I'll go in. What's the worst that can happen? And as soon as I went in, I realized they did have an empathy, they did have that understanding, and I thought, I'm in the right place. I'm glad glad you found them. And Edward, if I can come to you, how's it been for you being a carer . I mean Lak thank you both so much just for sort of grounding and Zach, thank you for just giving the space for us to speak. What's up being Lak? So just for context I've been taking care of Wamson for twenty years . And so I've had the what's the word? I've seen a lot through sort of care services. So I was quite I was quite fortunate . I was in school and I believe my teachers picked up that I could be a carer and this is two thousand six . So, you know, we had the phone call. This was with with Young Karer's Crossroads, so this is a Lambeth . And you know, we had to sit down, we identified these different things and you know, I was inducted. I went to a homework club. We went on weekends, weekends out, day trips . And then I remember this would have been twenty eleven, twenty ten Austeria. And all of a sudden , you know, you'd go to sort of young carer sessions and you'd be writing letters to your MPs, to your PMs because we were at risk of losing the space that, you know, us young carers would come to. And I very I very much remember writing a letter to a previous prime minister just asking if we could keep the center open. And we did it. We didn't get to keep it . I remember twenty fourteen. There was another, you know, and we have that conversation a lot about you th centers . Another youth center that we'd come to, again, appealing to local government to keep it open and of course listen losing out and in private services coming and taking over the space . Being a young person , caring for my mom, it was it was weird. I could come from the socials . I remember feeling very and you said something earlier is about like just there's an isolation to it. You know, you be in school and, you know, it might be oh, we'll go into the cinema . How do you explain to people you can't go to the cinema because , you know, so that's one side , but also you know, within the system , there's teachers that don't understand the concept where me stick at . And so oftentimes I have to keep my phone on. I need to have my phone on me. I need to check it to see how my mom's doing and you know, you get confiscated. And then you're having you having to tussle about why you need your phone . So where's that? You know, you come to school late at times, your uniform is in and teachers, you know, back in my weren't able to pick that up or identify that. And so then I was, you know, being pushed into detentions, I'm getting excluded. And so that, you know, that emotional aspect where I need that support wasn't there. So you can imagine how like from all these different facets I'm being filled . I have seen so many people come go, my peers, my community of carers where time a new iteration of like a caring service would come up we would have lost other carers that have gone because the networks don't remain the same and so it's been painful and I still see a lot of my friends who are still carers that have they haven't had those services. You know, JC, like you said, I'm taking care of my mom, you know, I'm doing A levels and I remember I noticed my English paper, English literally the next day and my mom used to sleep with a sleep apnea machine and we were up trying to get to work and 'cause I've, you know, use a machine to sleep. I wasn't confident in leaving us. I'm literally revising for my English paper while I'm sleeping and it's like these are things that you have to deal with because then how do I ask for extra time or extreme circumstances like what he's helping his mom go to sleep, you know ? And then going to university was that was a big thing because I'm like, Hey, I can't go, I can't leave London because that's how I need to be here. And I live I live with my little brother he's in Augini. And that was the whole thing in itself. And luckily, you know, we were able to secure a carer for Mum. And so it was a lot easier for me to go but even then that there's always that tether , you know, those anxieties. And then, you know, being a young adult , where now, you know, and I'm twenty six now. And there's the issue around sort of care contributions . Or haven't you know, my master pay towards a carers, and there was a whole there was an error that had happened with adult social care. And you know, you have to fill out these really long forms of like proving that you're sick , you know . And I'd hear my mom on the phone to social care or to local government just oh, you know, I need help with this. And you know, and this isn't to brag. Like I have a master's degree. Like I've been in rooms , I can speak. It's my mother that taught me all these soft skills. And to hear her on the phone to people that are supposed to help her, public servants, and she's being gaslit, and you know, it's so frustrating and there's that double labor almost of like having to then do the admin like it took me like eight months and that's just because I had the networks to be able to reach order for reach out to my counselors, reach out to other people without working care to help me appeal this. And that's just 'cause I had the networks. I'm thinking about all these different young adults that have to do or cope with fighting. I say all of that to say that I'm very I'm speaking from that from that experience. I'm also very happy in some ways to see younger younger younger carers now sort of have there's a lot more of awareness in schools it's not enough but there are awareness now I see assemblies to work in the school so we'd have care and assemblies and coming there's like a young care is designated lead. But I know that's not the case for a lot of London schools , you know, and I'm happy that now there are people that don't that haven't necessarily had to miss out on some of the guests that I have growing up, but there's still a lot that needs to be done in my opinion . Yeah , I still love that to say that it's a beautiful community to be in with people . And there's a lot of ups, thereets's a lot of downs . I agree with what you were saying earlier just about it's very invisible. You don't really see it. There's not a bad to say that oh I care, you know, there's just that weight . And again, it's a real privilege to be a monster because you can jpoke that temorarily. You can just be when people guess it, it's just like okay, you don't have to justify, you don't have to defend, you don't have to explain . You just be and the identity of being who you are , that gets lost. I feel validated , you know, okay, I feel guilty. Oh I was irritable and I was a bit short tempered. It's okay, you know , you know, I mean, don't feel judged . That's not very caring, is it? You know, I always used to hold things inside because I thought if I say it to someone who doesn't understand, they're going to think, Oh, what a terrible carer she should know better. She's a nurse, you know, oh dear These are the thoughts that I'm thinking internally so with carers and with carers you can they have care for a couple every Monday and we can just talk and we can just be. You know, I can cry if I want to cry, I can rant if I want to rant, I can just be and that is very valuable. You know, it's very precious to me. I'm intensely struck actually by how positive you all are about your experiences . Obviously, that's not to take away from how harrowing and I think we'll get into some of the detail of that. But I know Isabelle, you mentioned that it's quite beautiful actually to care for someone. Edward, you were talking about the kind of peer support network and JC, you're talking about the care for a couple of that. Something that's been coming up and thank you all for sharing all of those I mean they're incredibly powerful . We've heard like already quite a lot of talk about the system. I think all three of you at some point have talked about the system almost seems like a silly question to say is the system working? I guess another way of asking the question is how is the system not working? For me, carrying in itself is easy and hard just like any other job is, but the problem with car ing is that you have to do it twenty four seven even when you're not with the person . And if you were in a normal, if it was seen as a job, you'd have colleagues, you'd have a manager, you'd have someone to support you and the system I think should offer that through social care or through your workplace or the NHS, the doctors. But for me, I kind of know , I guess by being here, I'm quite what is the word like I'll look into things and I'll research and I know what the system should do to support me and I haven't found that that's happened. So with social care I was, in Wimborough and I tried to arrange a carers assessment , which is basically where you can talk about, I think, where you can get carers allowance, but also they should talk about other things to support your physical and mental well being . And I was working part time at the time and I tried to say, Can you call me when I'm not working? Because it's hard enough to juggle work and they kept calling me. We'd arained a day and then they just wouldn't call and I'd be waiting around all day, which was so hard as a career when you're just like there's so much you're juggling and they kept calling me on the wrong day and then they discharged me because they said it wasn't engaging with the service . Then I moved to Bursrough and I tried to get another carers assessment and I think they'd forgot about it or they lost it. So I had to chase up. So it's like always you fight so much for the person that you're caring for, but then to fight for yourself as a carer is like , so ex it'hsaust ing . And I had my carers assessment . And the social worker, she was lovely, but it was kind of okay you don't qualify for carers allowance because I'm a full time student and we don't get care val.ues. And that's it And there wasn't kind of a fallout. It was, oh, do you know the local care center? Yes, I do. They're the ones that told me to speak to you, but you know, it was beginning to have an impact on my physical health and my mental health . And I expected there to be someone that would sort of have an eye on me or to think about that . And to sort of say, you know, if I feel like I can't keep caring or if I need respite, that was one thing I did ask for. I just didn't hear back about whether I would get respite until I called and they said, Oh yeah there isn't really anything that we can do . And then with the NHS , you know, because I've been in healthcare, so I really respect the social workers and the doctors and everything like that. But sometimes I think it's just doctors would forget about the impact it was having on me. So my partner was in hospital for about a month and it had been really difficult at home caring for him until we got to the point that we were in hospital and I really hoped that when we were in hospital that would sort of people would see it. And there were people there were the paramedics and nurses who would see me kind of day to day. They kind of got it. But the doctors or I guess the system as a whole they didn't really say okay now we're discharging him. We can see how hard this is. We can see you've been here twelve hours a day every day for a month looking after your partner. The nurses haven't been you've had to help with this. So now we can see that we could let's do this to support you or let's come up with a plan for when now he's discharged. And I was just told I was told to call the police. Is my need to support ? Because my partner's like 'cause his neurological condition had some changes in his personality, which obviously I wasn't gonna do, but didn't feel like the right thing for me . And actually there was one thing they referred us to a neuro navigation service where we got an occupational health and a neuropsychologist who were there to support him, kind of regain his independence, learn how to do basic things like get a drink of water and things like that again, but their funding was cut. So and they saw me. They paid attention to me. They asked how I was, but that was the only service that I really found that. So I just yeah, I would go on the Carers UK website and sort of look at where can I get help? Like who can support me and what are they supposed to do? And then I'd get to that space. And I think maybe people kind of thought, okay, well it's a financial thing. Like we should do caravans. Obviously that's great as well. But it's also just I wanted someone to see me and I wanted someone to hear what I'd been through and what I was doing and recognized that I was doing that twenty four seven even like you say when you were at school when I was at work I was, you know , constantly worried or checking my phone or sending reminders and things like that yeah . So I feel let down by the system basically. I don't feel like I've been supported unfortunately. And it's something I hear often that this isn't about the individual people in the system who are working really hard often with the best they've got. It's kind of a structural issue. Is that your experience to Edward in terms of interacting with the NHS and the adult social care system? It feels very siloed . There's no total follow through, there's no link . You go to one clinic and you go to your GP, but they don't have they not communicated with each other . Again, local services, you speak to social care, they haven't communicated , it's just like a big kaf u. No one seems to be speaking to anyone. Yeah , no one's speaking to anyone's eye. And JC described earlier of having to tell the same story over and over again to different providers. Is that your experience too? Constantly , constantly. I mean, you know, I'd say, for example, what I mentioned earlier with Mora's contribution to care , I spoke to like thirty six different people like and I have this huge email thread spanning through different months. And it's just like you're saying the same thing, same thing. This person said this hasn't been passed over. This person has left the organization. There are no notes, there are no receipts. You know, you're met with cold calls, this gets canceled. It's it just feels it can feel very like a it's not a chore. It chose not the word I want. It's it feels like a labyrinth because you know you're dealing with those active situations where you're being met with you're met with open hostility. So you got that. And then you have the gigantuan task of like filling out a carers assessment and then you're met and told you you don't qualify for that . You don't qualify, you know, and then the person you're caring for doesn't qualify for this because they've missed out the fine print. So it's like there's no one available to help you fill it out. You do it yourself , you've been told you're doing it wrong and it's just like a cascade. I think people listening to this so that sounds like hard work anyway, even if you don't have other things going on, but if you're rathering the emotional and physical toil of looking after someone or people and then add all the admin, I can imagine how that's just horrendous Jeff, you've kind of got, I guess, several perspectives on this though, because you've worked or you work within the healthcare system as well as experiencing it as a carer. Yeah, I mean like, as being said before, we know the people who are working are working there with good intentions, they're passionate, they're dedicated, but I think it's just the infrastructure of the system, you know Things are so not human centered . I got a text yesterday from my GP surgery saying , I believe are a carer . Would you like to come in for some would you like some support ? And I could have done with that support. Thank you very much last year . But guess what? You know, I'm no longer a carer because my mum is linked to my account. So how things are being missed. There's no I think the GP surgery is a really good opportunity to identify carers you',re talking about , you know, recognizing whether you're a carer. You know, it's just simple things like putting a little flag on on your note saying carer , then maybe inviting you in to see what sort of support you need. It's a great opportunity, but I think a lot of opportunities are being missed. You know, and these opportunities could be very simple solutions right on our doorstep where you do have that human connection and you're not a number, you're not a postcode sometimes often it does feel like that. And you know , and that for me, I don't feel valued at that, you know, I more'm than that, much more than that. But we're we're sort of pedaling away, hamstering on the wheel , twenty four hours a day, you know, every day . And that 's hard. I find that hurtful, really when you don't feel I mean if it's not hard enough as it is just to have that recognition and to be valued and to think, right Key if you're giving out so much, then let's give something to you. Let's give you that support. Not rocket science really, you know, we carers need to be cared for . And that's what's been missed. There's a gap there . And in terms of what you would like to see change, do you have an idea of what that looks like? What would good have looked like for you? I think this recognition somewhere around this recognition and value in, I mean , I gave up a nursing career and I was given carer's allowance , which which is I mean currently, I think when I started caring my carers allowance was sixty seven pounds a week and at the end of my carer journey it was about eighty two pounds a week that's in about nine years difference, nine years difference . So that in itself , because carers still need to live and they need to survive, sometimes care needs to be supplemented . We sacrif ice a lot and if there was any way that that could be compensated for , that would be nice. And certainly this joined up thing, you know, the hospital to community . Getting carers involved , you know, carers , carers know the person they're cared for, they're the experts . And that just seems to be missed. You know, I would be told my mum's having a procedure done and I wasn't informed of it because she had capacity. You know, get the care involved, get the carer involved from discharge to home so things do run smoothly because in my experience it's like okay Mum's discharged home right on to you now and then you're carrying that you know boxes have been ticked, referrals have been made but you're alone with your loved one at home twenty four hours, at night, the worry, the anxiety. What if something goes wrong? What do I do? It's intense. It's intense. So better communication between services , conversations like this is invaluable . Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Edward, you're twenty six . I think you mentioned earlier that you started carrying when you were five or six years old. What kind of additional things would you want people to know, particularly for young carrots? I mean, five or six years old, I have to be honest. It is unfathomable to me that a five or six year old would have such a caring resp onsibility . We need more sort of awareness raise in schools in particular in schools and workplaces because equally for young carers or young adults that go into a place of work , they might not want to disclose that they are a carer because they might affect them from getting the position. So what kind of safeguarding could we introduce in schools for young carers for carers? And then equally just I guess materially like what would it mean for a young carer and I try to share Lambus young carers because they do amazing stuff. But is it a carers card that young people can carry, you know, if they're out on a trip or they're in a public space, could they carry that to sort of eliminate that whole confrontation of I'm going to take your phone away . You know, is it co creating these experiences? Like how do you bring terrorists to the to the forefront? Young terrorists and part icular, you know, and Zack, this isn't for you. Like, you know, just like public figures, politicians wheel out, they wheel us out for full opportunities. And then we take the picture, we take the step, and then it's done. I'm very much interest ed and I guess what I would like people to know is how do what does conversation, what does restitution look like after we've taken that photograph? Like what would it mean for young people to go to school and not feel like they have to sort of finally pose to hide like their safety line. What could they just be like to okay you can hold on to your phone? If they need someone to speak to, is there a designated caring lead? If not, like, what does it look like to I guess equip our systems, our local systems, our schools, our workplaces with things that can aid carers. So like that weight is slightly lessened . But also equally, you said again, like exper tise, I don't know why they didn't like inform me that my mum was having a surgery. Like we know, we know best with our loved ones. And it feels like there's again, there's that conflict with, you know, health professionals telling me, Oh no, it's this or they might shrug it off, but you know that that's not the case. So I'm just like, again , what does it look like tangibly? What can be used to assist us? I guess what's a commitment you can make to carers ? What could your party need? Well, I think it partly is this conversation about making sure that you are listening to people with a lived experience of caring and finding out, first of all, what are the problems before you start to look at solutions? I think some of the wider solutions and to I' morell spe getcific s but the wider solutions are all about austerity, everything that you were saying earlier, that we had kind of fourteen years of austerity under a conservative government and I would argue a labour government continuing that. And I think until you invest in adult social care until you invest in a national health service. Far too often these issues are being pushed to local councils who are already struggling and then you're adding people who are already struggling to care for someone into a system that is not funded to care for them . I don't need to tell you guys this, but to people listening, like the amount that it's saving the economy to have people who are caring is often something that's totally missed if we're going to even look at economic terms. Never mind the conversation we should be having about on humanity's terms, making sure people are supported and cared for. But I think that's the first thing is to make sure that these services are funded properly. Second, I think the carers allowance clearly isn't working and that clearly needs to massively be an actual allowance that can really, really support people to do the work they need. And then free personal social care is something that we're committed to at the last manifesto . So making sure that as well as relying on unpaid carers. There are people who can also support with some of the basics to make sure that carers are getting a little bit of respite and time. Partly why I'm asking these questions about identity so they can run the who they are when they're not a carer and actually get some time to look after themselves. And then finally, as you've all alluded to, I think it's about a discharge service from a national health service and how do you make sure that these things are linked up so people only have to tell their story once, give the full detail so that's on a system that then can be shared with other healthcare providers, other social care providers . And then sorry I said finally, but also I think also looking at the young unpaid carers as well because I think that's an area as you've spoken about several times that really really need support. I think it will be shocking to so many people that you have children aged five, six, maybe even younger who are having to get up several times in the night to look after an elderly parent or even a sibling and just aren't getting the support that they're required and no child should be having to go through that. Like children should be just that children living their life and learning and not having to kind of I hear about the beauty and the grace of looking after another human being, but also a five or six for a child to be able to be a child and that not to be their entire world. Thank you. I'll hold you to it. You can definitely hold it. This episode is brought to you by Crowdfunder . There's a street in Walthamstow where nobody used to talk to each other . Old Victorian houses freezing in winter and gas bills going through the roof. Then Hilary and Dan at number forty four had an idea . What if they turned the whole street into a power station , solar panels on every single roof? So they got their neighbors together and they fundraised for it. And at the same time they, built a community . Together, they raised over three hundred fifty thousand pounds on crowdfunder. Dan and Hillary were fed up with rising energy bills and the government doing nothing about it . So they got together and they did something radical. They turned the whole street in London into a renewable power station . twenty homes, solar panels on every roof , three and forty tons of carbon dioxide saved . And now their blueprint is spreading across the country. What's your bold idea? Start it at crowdfunded. com. UK forward slash bold. I mentioned you before we started filming at the London Assembly, I've recently co produced a report that's cross party with recommendations and one of the kind of key things that runs through this. I'm going to come to Isabelle is we have a cost of living crisis anyway . But if you are someone who's caring for someone during a cost of living crisis, then just for problems are kind of compounded. And did you say before you're not eligible for carers allowance because you're a full time student? Yes . So initially I was working whilst trying to complete my doctorate and care. So I had to stop working. It was quite hard to juggle, obviously, working and caring and on the carers leave was just introduced and it was quite hard, I think , to actually put that in place in the workplace and take time off. So I stopped working and we were able to move in with my partner 's parents. Otherwise, I don't know what we would have done . And yeah, as a full time student, I can't claim Carer's allowance so yeah, I mean that's it. And I think about, you know , young carers , if you, you know, you turn eighteen and you want to go to university and do a degree and maybe also continue to care for the person you're caring for you. You then can't also get carer's allowance. I'm so grateful that I've been able to continue to work towards my doctorate because it's something I started before I became a carer and my partner and all my family were really passionate for me to be able to get to that place, but it was only through their support that I've been able to do that . And yeah, I think it would make such a big difference to be able to support students, to be support who are people trying to work and care. I'm going back to work in a few months . And yeah , I'm excited and apprehensive to see how that goes , but I think it's so we all have our things that we do outside of caring and it's really important to be able to continue to do those things. And so I want to pick up there actually because again it's a theme of something that you've all said which is around identity , which is like part of your identity as a carer and then you have so many other identities to you. How do you work to kind of keep yourself grounded and make sure that you kind of see through things while still kind of devoting your life for a huge part of your life to looking after another person . Gotta work hard. I mean, I've worked hard when I have all my outlets that I do. I mean, connecting with the carers community is part of my self care number one . I don't do it enough . Just having this conversation today is just very inspiring and it's giving me energy . But I do my things like I do my mindfulness, I do my dance in . And I just surround myself with people who can check in on me and say take a bre ak . How you doing It sounds very simple, but just having those people who are my sounding boards and when I need to have a little bit of steam. Sometimes it's like survival and you have to it's like this like you said it's just like this constant fight or flight repetitive cycle and to have that those people around you to ground you and to check in on you is yeah, it's non negotiable really. For a kind of final question and take this however you want, I guess there's two questions you can answer both or either if someone's listening to this, what do you want them to know? That they might not know about caring? And obviously, I'm sat here listening to I'm a national political leader. What would you want a politician to know? So that might be the same answer to both questions or it might be different. But I just wanted to kind of end by giving you all the flour to say whatever it is you think people need to hear really . You know, check in on them, ask them how they're feeling. It's not, you know, just get an understanding of what their day might look like. You know, it's not just doing a bit of shopping or you know washing someone's hair . Get an understanding. Don't assume that you know, you know, or and it's not about self pity. It's not about pitying or feeling off you know your care all lovely love. No, it's just for really recognising the strengths and recognising the love that drives what they're doing and maybe put in putting themselves in that person's shoes if that was your loved one, you know, what would you do? You'd fight like anything to make sure that person stays well , what would you do? How would you feel? How would you feel if your world was turned upside down in an instant ? You know, and just get that understanding, you know? And also, how are you feeling? Not what you're doing, how you feeling? I've heard a lot. I don't know if you heard this in your time, but people often say to me why you're so strong and you're so resilient. And at first , I found that difficult because I felt like it was me and them we were separate. You're so strong. Keep doing what you're doing on your own. That's how it felt me. Now I can hear it more , I feel better in myself and I can hear it for what it is. I am strong. You are strong. We are really strong as carers . So I think if you think that and if you say that great, follow it up with what can I do to help? How can I take something off your shoulders? If you're a friend, I mean I've got mate really lovely friends, you know, who can cook an extra meal for you or say, Can I do laundry for you? You don't have to care for the person because it can be hard and we know we've learned how to do it, but care for the carer. If you're an employer, you will have carers in your workplace. Think about how you can support them. When they ask for help, give it to them. Don't make people fight more because we fight so much for the person that we're caring for so fight for the carers that you know. And obviously if you're a politician, then you know, you've got a lot of work to do to divorce . I'm hearing that a lot. Yeah, absolutely. And I totally take that feedback as well if like if you're going to admire someone's resilience or strength, then follow it up with yeah, how can I practically help or what needs doing? A really good piece of advice that my friend said to me is I kind of said I'm in the hospital and I just can't stop crying every time the doctors speak to me because that's all I have left. She said crying is a communication. So I would say to carers. If all you can do is cry at people then cry at people because at least they'll see how hard it is. And maybe maybe someone will be able to step in to help. So don't worry if that's all you can do. Isabella and JC said it they said but I just say to anyone listening just you might be a carer and I think if you are there, ask yourself the hard question and find out what's available to you a lot. I think we are a nation of carers , and I think it's important that we find out and see how you can be helped and join the community. That's what I had to. This episode was brought to you by Crowdfunder. What's your bold idea? Start at crowdfunder. com uk forward slash bold. A huge thank you to our guests and don't forget this week is Carers Week. This is vital for several reasons. It's a way of making sure we're supporting care in the community. We're supporting people who are doing this vital work to care for loved ones and recognizing what they're going through and looking at how we can support them. We've heard several times today, not to just tell people they're strong or they're resilient, but actually see what we can do to help. And finally, to make sure that carers get the recognition that they deserve and so there's much more awareness in a whole system about what carriers are doing. So check out Carr's Week online.