Final Thoughts on Jade's Trajectory

Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of British Scandal ad free right now. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app I'm Alice Levine, and I'm Matt Ford. And this is British Scandal, an Audible original And this is Episode four in the Jared Goody series So Matt, Big Brother M J Goody, the biggest reality star this country has ever seen But it was far from sunshine and rainbows. What did you take from looking back I think my main takeaway is that four oxocubes too much for pasta. Yes, that's the real scandal. You'd be up all night drinking pints of water. But it is always about food with you, isn't it? Is that all you took from it? I obviously took serious lessons as well and it is incredible the impact that it had on conversations about racism and bullying in class not just in the UK, but then incredibly around the world And obviously it was horrific at the time, revisiting it. reminds you just of how vivid it all was. and It's very easy to judge things in retrospect. you hope now many years later that lessons have been learned. And what about Jade? What did you think of her in the end Well she obviously made massive mistakes goodood thing is that the show in a way revealed her true character And ultimately it's about her response to that controversy that is the making of her because she was genuinely mortified, she was apologetic and she wanted to make amends. That doesn't take away prejudice that she displayed all the offense and the hurt that was caused But I just think if Cho Pachetti could find it within herself to forgive her than I guess I can to. And I just think all of us are imperfect And the real risk with all these things is it's very easy to sit at home and judge put in a high pressure situation. on television around people, effectively cast to bring out your worst elements and your best, but your worst as well But who hummungsters can honestly say that our less favorable elements of our personality wouldn't be displayed there. And Who were we really to judge her? Be she'd had a very difficult life. She hadn't had the sort of education that a lot of her detractors had enjoyed. And a lot of those people are racist anyway. Everyone has their own prejudices. And I think in the end I really felt for her. I was very fond of her I didn't like the way she behaved, but I thought her reaction to it was wonderful and It was just really sad the way ended for her. but I think overall she was A really special person It's so hard to discuss Jade without discussing reality television and vice versa because she really became The face of a whole new medium, a whole new revolution in television. And I know a lot of people listening will be interested in the making of Jade via television, how the shows were produced, how decisions were made about her portrayal, which is why today we're speaking to a man who not only watched it all unfold firsthand, but was part of that team making those decisions Paul Osborne. Paul first met Jade during her initial application process for Big Brother and then went on to be the executive producer of her celebrity Big Brother Return Paul Osbourne joins us after this Paul, Thankk you so much for joining us. Welcome. So you worked as a producer on Big Brother from the very first series. When did you first hear about it and what made you want to work on it and get involved U It was an interesting one for me because I had been on a Working holiday in Australia in like nineteen ninety nine two thousand Prior to that I've watched on the big Breakfast and a couple of other shows And I wasn't kind of sure if I wanted to king TV and on the plane back to the UK All the newspapers that were laid out were covering the press launch of the first ever series. And so lots of pictures of Davina and the sort of first stirrings of controversy over what this brand new genre of TV would bring But I remember reading it or reading some of the articles andin, God, I wish I wish I was working on that I wish I was arounded when it was being crwed up Ruth Riggy, who was the exec on that first season. she'd worked on the Big Breakfast. I'd been there as well And so I sense that I might have been in that circle and might have been able to actually I roll on it, but I remember I came onto the show quite late. premier of the first episode is happening just as I was coming in to work on the show someomeone had left and I took over their role as the task guy And I remember watching it with some friends and it was the first episode. so therefore it was the first thirty minute cutdown of the show And I remember watching it and we just didn't know what was happening. We werere like, well, where's Seina? Why isn't she there? How does this work I do remember feeling at the time how brand new and completely alien, it was Ccept So for series three in two thousand two, you were sent to vet Jade. Yes. What was your first impression of her Bubbly Funny U, energetic, nervous. very anxious about producer coming into her home and You know, I think realize that You know, this was just a final step in the kind of audition process. So yeah, she was like she was a ball of energy basically and ultimately quite anxious and nervous that she didn't want to do anything wrong And at that point, what was home life like for her I mean, when I met her, she was was at her mom's house in Bermindsey and I remember walking in and Jackie was at the store you know, making a chicken drumstick curry. She had like a sort of like pink bath towel around her like acting like like an apron And yes, I mean, it was just a regular little flat in Bermindsey. Jade's bedroom was Pay sparse,m not I'm not sure if she was living there at the time, but she did have her son bed, like actually in her bedroom, so she Jade lo to time And did you think then I found a star I think Jade was Compelling in many ways. Like I said, she was funny, she was bubbly, she was charming She stood out That's what she did, is she stood out And oftentimes when you're going through those audition processes for Big Brother, it's really people will just stand out like that And she was definitely onene of them. I didn't think she was going to be a star at that point. whoo knew But we knew that she was a great personality Was there anything in that meeting that made you think she might be divisive? Oh yes Um I mean, I think Jade was just generally quite polarizing like you, you know, she was polarizing from the outset, you either you know, sort of like really took to her and sort of loved her warmth and our bubbliness, but you could also be like, you know, a little She could be alone And so that was, you know, you're sort of looking at her thinking, could I live with this person not that that's the criteria for casting someone You In fact the opposite. In fact in many ways, the opposite We were looking for a real mix of characters and she was so, so different from anyone else Big Brother at that time was such a huge shore. And it was such a massive opportunity for just ordinary people to become something J just by sir being themselves. so you're kind of conscious of that from the outset. This is like a possible life changing. moment for people And when you're going on that initial visit or even when you're looking at audition tapes and things, is part of your decision making at that point Is this person going to cope well with the experience? An fragility that you sense? how is that going to react with that very unusual setup of the format Well, I think the first thing I would say is that it's not like you, one person making the decision. It's a collective group of producers from you know senior to the lower level of producers. So everyone is responsible in many ways for putting together the cast on by Brother. But yes, no, there's a hugely robust. psychological screening process that everyone goes through and And you know, and also from producer's responsibility aspect, you're making sure that you, you know, that these people are going to be able to handle the experience because Obviously it's quite intense. And it's unprecedented. you know you can't really prepare them because it's such a strange setup Totally. I mean from the outset, though, for like, you know, they They send their videotapes in back in the day when you had to buy a video camera or borrow one. You know from the moment that we receive the application videos and we start talking to them and then when we invite them to the sort group audition days And then throughout that process as it gets closer and closer to the selection part of it constantly made aware of the intntensity. of the experience and the fact that You know, that you're putting yourself out there to be judged both internally within the house and externally with the public. So That's definitely a consideration all the way through What was it that made Jade so popular in the end? in the end because initially Obviously, she was vilified in the press And also that first episode or the first week or so of Big Brother was kind of a brand new twist idea. reop the phone lines and the public would vote for who they wanted to save and the people with the least votes would then go up for eviction. they didn't know that. And she was one of the two of the boms Obviously initially, she wasn't popular with the public, then she wasn't popular with the press and she wasn't hugely popular within the House in many ways either. but I think people started to see her Vulnerability. As the show went on and also I think became like sympathetic towards her because she had no idea people were seeing outside of the house and so there was an element of empathy for for her as a person But I think her vulnerability was a key factor in turning the tide towards her. Do you think there was a classest element to that reaction from the public or maybe more importantly from the press H hundred percent, yes I think it was Fastest. I think people thought bright and bubbly and had lots of common sense, but she wasn't like educated and you know, she got a lot of things wrong and that became part of the comedy. off her with like East anngular comments and all that sort of stuff I think there was a little bit of misogyny as well. likeike, you know, they took screenshots of her when she was yawning, like, you know, they were literally saying in the papers, you know evict the pig You know, that's Perrific. Totally shocking, yeah. which you would never get away with these days B in the day apparently, that was fair game People definitely looked down their noses at Jade and her inclusion in The show I mean, the show itself was looked down upon. So the show was looked down upon and she was looked down upon, but turned it around And she's a particular type of working class person. She's had working class people on before. Craig had won the first series working class scout up from obviously from Liverpool It was the type of working class she was, wasn't it that drove that snobbery. She was the wrong type of working class Yes, I think probably that's true. I mean J didn't have a A solid upbringing You know, she had struggled when she was a kid and throughout her adolescence and she was bullied at school and You know, she'd managed to make something of herself in the sense that she'd got, you know, a decent job. She was a dental hygienist and But yes People were looking down on her It's sort of like an underclass, right? So you know, I'm working class myself. So I could identify with her, but she just hadn't had the opportunities that a lot of other people had had. With that came her personality Jade had no boundaries,? You know she had she was honest to a fault and I think the combination of that plus the fact that, you know People were on Big Brother were becoming famous for being themselves. Famous for being famous is the usual thing that's thrown at it, but it's just famous for being you and so because There was lots of criticisms about they had no discernible talent. so why would they why should they be on the TV every night? And Big Bother had had that for for a couple of years by that point. And so they just thought that that was it vindicated det trractor's perspective on the show through herart. And what's the reaction in the production office when you see a contestant going through that sort of public and media prorium? withith a sense of protection really U But also you're making the show and you are, you know the c The concept of Big Brother is you show life in real time. who people really are And so there was an element of protectionism, but We're still just making the show. and also you have to You know, as a balance required, you can't be just focused on Jade the entire time. U so you're focusing all the other contestants as well and just it's an unfolding soap opera that she was one cast member of I mean, it was proven, right? So I said that she stood out in theudition process and then in the show itself again, she stood out. That's who she was. She was a standout character. And obviously, some of those moments are completely innocuous, you know Beast Angla is that's a funny moment and you're probably delighted that episode to have that you know, that mistaken and that becomes like a really enjoyable, you know, moment or thread for her. So I suppose one thing is trying to filter out moments that you think may or may not be humiliating. But another thing is, like you say, it's a patchwork, it's a patchwork of people and you're filming all day every day. I mean, that's the part that I kind of forget now. You've got so much material Filming Austie Eday and let's not forget back in those days, it was streamed. As well think at that time, the streaming you also had the opportunity to choose which feed you wanted. So There was a constant stream and you could access the show. in real time albeit, you know legally compliance Um and then also back in the day, The shows were half hour long They were half hours. So you're condensing twenty four hours material that a lot of people have already seen Down to the sort of thirty minute edit of the days You could say there's a transparency to having the stream. you know, the receipts are there. Yeah, true I mean you have to follow that transparency as well. I mean, Big Bother as well, chronological, right? You know you don't move things around You start at the top of the day and you end at the bottom of the day and that's sure. D five, whatever it is in the Big Brother house. You're following it chronologically You're not even like moving di rooms around. like you know it's like you show them coming to the di room at the time that they came, you show what's going on at the same time as that dier room's takaking place. There was definitely an element of you know, stay in Fruthful What's going on in the house and balanced. So we should talk about the innovation in the format that was celebrity Big Brother. In two thousand seven, you were executive producer How was the casting for that decided? know an incredible mix of people, iconic mix of people from a variety of backgrounds. How are you creating that mood board of people Well, I mean, with celebrity Big Brother, people have to be willing to take part. Obviously, that's the first kind of hurdle. I think one of the earliest people we had in that cast was Ken Russell. because he was a huge fan of the show. Mind bllow just became our casting person, became aware of the fact that Ken Russell would like to take part So that's the first thing. And then you're kind of looking for You want a few big household or recognizable name stars in there So you got Jermaine Jackson You know, we li like to have those kind of like throwback pop culture cast members as well. A again, you just you're throwing the rope out and hoping someone's going to grab it. And then the inclusion of Jade, Jade was a huge star. like, you know, she was the biggest reality TV star that had ever been been him probably has ever been in this country And the previous year we had had Chantel Hon go in pretend to be a celebrity. We started rolling with the idea that it's kind of interesting to play around with what the concept of celebrity actually is in that series, could she convince celebrities that she was in fact a celebrity? so similarly in JH year We thought bringing in someone that Big Brother had turned into a celebrity would be fascinating and interesting. By the same turn We thought it wouldd be interesting with Chilpa. because Sof it was a huge sort of Bollywood Star The biggest film industry in the world and yet unknown outside of IndiaR or The Indian diaspora And so that was another sort like I guess meta comment on celebrity. It was definitely part of What we thought would be interesting. All those things combined was how we were putting the cast together Probably the most famous challenge in that series is the masters and servants. You abide in the house, Which obviously given the class dynamics that we've already discussed Hly controversial and obviously tempting task to to those people When you're designing a task like that You're obviously thinking of entertainment values subverting people's positions in society and how people are going to react to power and all the rest of it does it occur to you that actually this could have potentially explosive consequences L's like upstairs downstairs, right? No, I mean, very innocent L you know, we had the rich poor side previously, I think in the previous celebrity bigig B brother The one before that even there was like a sort of royal hierarchy with Queen Mother Jackie Stallone and going all the way down to bed warmers and all that sort of stuff. So it had been done before. it was just another way of sort of creating an interesting dynamic in the house and to see how people would react and also a commentary on Jade's celebrity status. I mean, you know, we're aware that her celebrity status wouldn't necessarily be looked at by these very professional people who had careers in entertainment that they wouldn't equate their own celebrity status with that. So we were sort of, you know, playing around with that concept a little bit as well And we had no idea it was going to lead to what it led to Otherwise We't done it. How accurate was what people saw on TV compared to what was happening in the house and I guess behind the scenes as well with the levers that you're pulling as producers We always stayed as true to what was happening as we possibly could within the confines of having to put together an edited version of the show It was always a kind of S of a sacred c, big brother that you told the truth So it was as accurate as it could be. And also again That was also streaming live, you could tune into that at any point. So you it was always something that we strove to do, but it was something that you also had to do because, you know, the public at large and Journalists getting their stories are watching the streaming and you know they're utilizing that material for stories in the press forming opinions about you know, what's going on in the house and who people are and whether they like them or not So it's, you know accurate. As accurate as it gets in an edited show I mean, I've been in and around the show myself It really is an ecosystem all of its own. you were there and sort of the most famous years What is the makeup of that team? How is that getting put together? How many people have got eyes on that stream and then finally you know are churning out the final episode? At the time, at least there was a team of a rotating team of twelve producers and new responsibilities where You're either running the gallery the control room and therefore being B Bother and talking to the housemates, but also, you know, when sort of conflicts arose or intensity increased, then a lot of the housemates would come to the diro room. they would talk to the producers as Big B brothers. So that was part of your part of your responsibilities And then your other responsibility is that once every twelve days because it's a rotating team of twelve producers you would be sort of in charge of or the main set of eyes onn the going on in the house and therefore the next nights. S Big brother's little brother, that entire team is also watching Everything that's going on, they're looking for unseen material that they can utilize Legal teams, like the streaming was complied by lawyers and so it's on a fifteen minute delay. so those people are watching, the directors that are putting together all the shots and following everything. They're watching. Everyone's watching. I mean, you've seen it. It's a village. It's a village, yes And are there ever any discussions about narratives and saying, well, hang on, he's basically the bad guy If there are moments in the day that contradict that narrative, we're more likely to leave them out. Or is it not approach like that? No, it's not a approach like that actually. You're always looking for balance and you don't want to be accused of creating a character that the public then like or disli based on your choices. So you're always looking for balance. I suppose the other thing we haven't mentioned is For a lot of the day, the housemates aren't doing an awful lot. So a lot of what you're leaving out is, you know there'll be a snippet of that conversation that's interesting or relates back to what happened the day before, but there is also quite a lot of lying on the sofa There's a lot lying the so phone and there's a lot of kind of like mundane everyday life, but sometimes that's also a great inclusion. Like I was doing a little bit of watching back a few things in advance of this and it's like there's a whole story about Kate. Boiling her pants in a saucepoan. You know, that made it into the show. L it's, you know, there's a lot there's a lot of mundane things going on that are humorous, funny character revealing But yes, of course, there's things going on that don't make it into the show for many obvious reasons In retrospect, perhaps these viewers formed Reality TV around this time is basically becoming sadistic and that People were cast to sort of deliberately reveal the worst parts of their personalities and TV producers were thinking of very inventive ways to create conflict. I remember one in I think it was in the civilian series of Big Brother We People would just s with the nuts and bolts I it was basically a pointless t askk Maxwell. Yeah. You went mad. Obviously alcohol played a part as well You know, did you ever work with people where you thought, Ohh go, I think they're getting off on the tension too much? Youre basically just trying to have fun and think of new inventive ways because it's a TV show that has to evolve. And only in retrospect the public who were loving it at the time now saying, oh actually this was awful, you know it crossed the line I mean, it's inherently quite an interesting format without any of those twists, right? The nomination process, the popularity contest of it all, the fact that they're cut off from the outside world and nobody really knows how they're being perceived by the audience outside in itself does create um, you know, great interestnteresting. TV The great thing about Big Brother is it is a tong format, but you can build on top of it without ruining the core aspect of it. Twist was something that kind of like really introduced at on that series with Jade and then that's become part of the format both here and everywhere in the world either there's a twist or there's a theme or there's something that gives that series an identity of its own. and that one was rich poor As you've said, you know, friction and tension is good drama. you know that is good TV But we should talk about Jaden Chilper and how things went beyond that. and it turned nasty to say the least. Some of the scenes we've been watching back for the purposes of this series and they're incredibly hard to watch The three girls ganging up on Chopper is obviously what springs to mind. Do you remember at the time watching those scenes and how you felt then. Yes. I do remember. Good stuck, No I shall and Early on it didn't seem Unprecedented that we've had that kind of bitchiness going on and usually Those things were dealt with in some way or another via the interior of the house and the housemates themselves or by the public voting ineictions. And so early on it felt like bitching that we've seen quite a few times before and it usually resulted in whoever was orchestrating the bitch and being evicted from the house And then of course, when it blew up and when things got a little differentifferent after that, it felt I felt H to watch because it was Jade and we knew her And she was part of the Big brother. History. And then it became quite overwhelming as things spiraled in the outside world and quite difficult to Dal with And how do you decide parts of that to broadcast. It's a collective decision and know it crosses all sort of editorial and legal boundaries and broadcast guidelines and everything, but ultimately you're trying to put everything in as much context as you possibly can to make sure that it is fair own Concerned When you talk about the outside response, what exactly were you seeing? Obviously there were headlines, but I mean, How was it escalating and what was the pace of that? Because obviously this blew up within This is real time, as you've described, because of streaming, this is a sort of real time reaction. Yeah I remember coming in one morning and Sky News were broadcasting live from outside of the studios. That's probably the first sign that things were like snowballing The studios are right next to the house in Elstreay And so I'm up in my office kind of like, editing down the voiceover script and then suddenly there is a helelicopter literally coming past the window and Your first thought is well can't see that because they can't have any contact with the outside world. so you're kind of like you know, getting the housemates inside the house and putting the shutters down which youve seen in the program But yeah, that was when it became pretty clear that it was becoming aort massive news story. And obviously a lot of people are involved in dealing with that At the same time You're also rushing to get a show out in the you know, the manner that you normally do, which is You a viewing in mor It gets, you knowort of finesed edited down for the broadcast that evening. Like I said, there's a voice overver script to edit and you know decision to be made editorially. So on top of all of that, you have you know, the outside world having an impact on How you deal with what has been takaking place in the house. And this is before the argument And what was the feeling within the team point because you're simultaneously you've got byy any measure, now the most talked about TV show on the planet It's a point of kind of maximum peril because you simultaneously create a hit and a massive international news story that the Prime Minister gets drawn into. So why are you thinking in some way this success. or are you thinking we are seconds away from being closed out Again, I would say at some moments with before it became quite vile It wasn't unfamiliar It was holding a meter up ee. in many ways I don't think anyone, I certainly wasn't thinking, oh, this is great, this is a hit yourour main concern is for the housemaidates themselves And then secondary to that, you know, you need to get a show out. You need to you need to make sure that you're Do your job So we you surprised that it became such a major diplomatic row, rather than just a sort of TV reality rle That's literally the line from one of the news reports, isn't it major diplomatic rout It was a confluence of so many things, wasn't it? L Obviously, there was the offc complaints that were coming in. There was the, you know, there was the behavior of what was going on inside the house. and then compleompletely by coincidence, Gordon Brown is arriving in India at the same time. Chancellor of the Exequer at the time. I think it was already part of the the news that he was, you know, he was inline for the Prime Ministership And then yes, then making Prime Ministers question timee and Tony Blair having to make a comment on it. Yeah, that all that that was all unprecedented The early stages of it, I think, were a little bit more familiar and then it just kind of snowballed and to Kular I mean, just to put it in context for people, eight million people watched Jade leave the house and OCOom received over forty thousand complaints, the third highest number of complaints they'd ever had You were one of many on the team, as you've said, you know, this is a network of people making constant decisions you know throughout the series. but did you have personal feelings, as you've said, you know, she was for want of a better expression part of the family And then she's out in the world and has no idea what this reaction has been. D you have personal feelings about that? I mean, yes, it's kind of like, you know, um You're sort of like, you know, shaking your head and You know wishing that She and the others making it worse A, I fel protective towards our But then I also You know, I knew that I had responsibilities as a Should you, sir to make the showone to make it faair and balanced and that You know, there was a collective responsibility to and decide what was legally and ethically setet for broadcast whilst it was moving really, really fast and again, it was unprecedented. We had had contontroversy before, but it had never been to that scale wouldould it have felt inappropriate then to you and the team to remove it from the edit, leeave it in the stream But you know be ready for people to ask the question why it wasn't there, but kind of have it justified because it was Hateful U there's legal and editorial guidelines coming together to decide what is going into the show with you know a time limit on when those decisions can be Mead. Um So it was always about contextualizing what was happening and taking sort of, you know, legal guidelines about what was It's it for Broadcast And I guess previously, nothing of high drama or nothing of high controversy would have been taken out, off course that would have gone in the episode If it could be Cextualized withithin the broadcasting code and it was trruthful and necessary, then it would go into the show because there are ethical considerations with leaving something out as well, aren't they? You would be manipulating the truth in know removing something like that, which would then reflect far more favorably on the people that had crossed a line You could make the case that's ethically worse than broadcasting it. I think you could make that case. I mean, I think Obviously, you know, you reflecting back on it were interventions that You know, should and should be Meade But yeah again being streamed live. that also of cuute arguments People were watching that. I mean, it wasn't all broadcast because it happened in the daytime, but people were aware that that had happened because it was on streaming. And also you have to be fair to Silpa You know, you have to give the context of that argument and you know, the sort of levels of anger that were being displayed you know, force her to respond and react, you had to sort make sure that Everyone was aware of what had led to that Yeah, I mean, you could argue that. I think You're always making decisions Based on a duty of care to the housemates and also following the broadcasting code where you where you come Obviously it easy in hindsight to say Ohh this should have happened, but what could have been done differently the time. to either protect Shil or indeed, you know, protect Jade We certainly could have challenged them a little bit more in hindsight, very easy to say this. They could have been challenged more on what might have been termed at the time as casual racism but is now, I think, widely regarded as simply racism So they could have been challenged, I think, on that And mean we did challenge them on quite a few things Not one hundred percent effective time I don't think it's too strong to say that many people Jade, you know, there was there was real vitriol in the press and in the public, but A lot of people also felt really sorry for her I'm wondering what your reaction was when you heard that Jade was going on bigig boss in India hosted by Chil Pachetti U I thought That's exactly the right thing to do. well done Okay, go on. The one thing that Jade I think that people forget about the whole furor around it was that Jade she held herself accountable in a way that was quite Um intntelligent And oughtful her interview afterwards, she really held herself accountable to the comments that she had made. I think she recognized part of her character that she didn't like But she knew it was her And she knew it was her behavior and I think when she decided to do Boss That was a chance for her to in the environment that she was very used to being in a chance for her to show the other side of her and to sure accountability for. Eesssentially Did you ever imagine that Big Brother would be the mega hit that it was No, I don't think anyone knew. I mean, I think there was definitely a buzz around it hence the newspapers in the plane And it wasn't big in the first instance as well. I can't remember it was getting like two million viewers, maybe, which I think was quite big for Channel for at the time. But it's steadily built and steadily built as people sort of became familiar. with the forma And then I think Obviously Nasty Nicknick Bateitmananss Rule was was what blew it up. I remember at that time as well, even that first series was streaming on the internet That was relatively new as well. to a certain extent. people didn't, you know wasn you didn't have smartphones in your hand I got a lot of texts from people during the builduild up with Nick that sort of indicated that people were Ver, very interested in what was happening and couldn't wait until the show You live by the soordi, you die by the sldls, live by the sword, you die by the swords. As you say, serious strength of feeling. you know, what do you think it's said about? society at the time that people were so consumed by I mean to it. Pe couldn't not watch the stream. I think that it's interesting when you think about the reason that then became such a kind of like villain figure because he was cheating and he wasn't playing fair and he wasn't being himself He was lying So you know, the British cense of fairplay is like how Dare How dare someone play a game in a game And I think that kind of like that became a kind of an aspect of Oh pular positive characteristic would be if you were going into Big Brother is that you are yourself and you don't play games and you don't cheat Jade really believed in that. She really believed that Be yourself, whatce and all, every facet of your personality, just be honest, never be fake. It was always a big thing she always talked about You would set of that Row with Shilper, thatort of fiickery aspect of it, the gamepling and they're not showing who you really are. I think she saw Big Brother as a real leveler You know, she was of working class Underededucated had a really tough life but she could be sharing a house with someone that had she put it silver spoons and you know, servants and all that sort of stuff. So U I think that aspect of it really sort of permeates through those early series and other reality TV, I think, that authenticity, honesty thing becomes a very important characteristic of being on a reality show. which is kind of ironic because a lot of the reality shows that came later were constructed reality But I feel like that was a hallmark of successful people on reality TV that people felt like they were being themselves. Being themselves, absolutely authentic. Yes, absolutely. you know, to a positive a negative reaction, depending on who that self was.. You know that you're going in to be judged to be you know, liked or disliked and that the public participate in your suuccess or failure Based on that, that's social media Lkes, dislikes, canceled for this, cancel for that diing rooms where you Donors. talking to people at home directly. in the same way that you do now with a phone in front of your face if you're an infuencer. And it was very human. offtten that was Almost your only opportunity in Big Bother to speak Really, I feel like people had those conversations feeling like it was more off the record than any of the other conversations in the house Well, it was like it was a very kind of intimate relationship between Big Brother and the housemates. likeike you know that you' as an opportunity to talk in a kind of therapeutic sense about how things, you know, how things are unfolding in the house your general kind of experience with certain people Most housmates really felt When they came to the diary room, it was like an offloading of things that they wouldn't say in front of other people feelings they didn't want to hurt or conflict they didn't want to be power of. there was an element of therapy about it I think. Was there any part of you or the team that felt like they could have used that diary room time with Jade or with the other women. to together against Shilper to sort of redirect or kind of give them some tools to to see the error of their ways We would always give them tools like that. wasr day d, it was always Have you spoken to your hostmates about this and Is there anyone in the house that you could speak to that you could confide in? So those would have been ongoing, but that house was so divided And it was divided in a way that you hadard of Almost boundarialist teiting and gossiping and name calling On one side and the other side that wor'd didn't want to engage with that and make it a thing And I think that's you know, potentially what didn't I didn't allow the house to come together and explore how harmony could be restored. I just continued alonger divided line, which was unusual. As you say, people go in knowing full well, they're going to be judged, they may be popular, they may be unpopular. But when you've got contestants that are then vilified and having to be evicted in an empty looks like a car park, but you know, that big brother lot where theres even the crowds aren't allowed in What sort of support do they get from productions in reality Teley? Beuse I used to watch Jeremy Kyle and Big Bother and stuff and Jeremy Kyle was how Gram in the Aftercare team. And I used to think They're not getting much support after this. You know, it feels like they're going to be left to their own devices. I don't know how much Big brother would have given someone that j. Fully supported, fully supported. Celebrity is a little bit different because they have agents and managers. so becomes a discussion. In the early stages of Big Brother, they had We had a sort of interim agency that would help the Housemates navigate the journey from Housemate to ex housemate and You know, they would field offers from newspapers and from other agencies that wanted to represent them. So it was a kind of interim agency So from an agency and a PR and a marketing perspective, thats in place And then the Psychologists that had been instrumental in their assessments prior to going into the high where That was the first person they met when they came out of the house and then that after cure continued thout. afterfter that And I think it's got even more and more robust as the years have gone on How do you think that Big Brother has changed the culture on the whole We're in a kind of a post bigig Bother world to a certain extent Whether you're an influencer now or a commentator or Journalists, you know, you utilize social media to put their viewpoint out there and in response, get either Judged positively or negatively Nowadays people often thrive when they're neegativity That becomes there MO is to store things up because it gets them more followers and it gets them more traction So I think it is, yeah, it's like I said post Big Brother worldorld What's the right conclusion to draw about the effect of Big Brother on Jay Goody's life? Is it that it transformed her and gave her everything she'd ever dreamed of? or is it that effffectively it destroyed her I think unfortunately, you can' can't get a proper answer to that Qion because you would need to ask Jade. I think what definitely happened is She went through several redemption arcs before her untimely death But she sort of started off as the girl that everyone laughed at and mocked and ended up as the girl that everyone Most people Ggrieved And I think, you know, that trajectory is pretty powerful. I guess it's a bit of both, isn't it? You know, it gave her everything and that in a way then is the strength and the weakness, isn't it? It completely exposes you for all your strengths and weaknesses. It gave financial security for her children that she would never have been able to give them otherwise, give her the fame she craved and the love that she craved, but also sort of put our flawors out there for the world to see Yes and But then she also, you know, she exploited that for her own Aain Like you said, you know, that was her obviously her main objective in those sort of last months was to make sure that her kids were well set up But you know, she launched a business, she launched her perfume, she wrote biographies and And she had her show on liing and she made the most of are opportunities Right up until the very end, I think Is she the savviest Big Brother contestant of all time? Possibly. possibly I think she just understood what our life would have been like without it And so she Grabbed everything when it came her way putting going back in. Finally, Paul Would you go on reality television I would go on reality TV only if it wasn't televised. I think you fundamentally misunderstood I used to think that that's something that I would have applied for if I hadn't been B brother specific and I've worked a lot of shows since I think if there was one show which I've also worked on, I would love to experperience survivor I think it's u it really is Another great leveler There's no public vote in that. It's all internal Um you know, it's internal decisions as to who goes and who stays Meanwhile, you're also surviving on a remote island I'd probably want to do that Would you make good telly I don't know, I don't know. I' probably not a big standout character really Gota be more controversial Pul g. That was so brilliant. Thank you so much for shedding light on a story that we've 've been fascinated by for the last few weeks, it's been incredible. thank you. No worries. It was brilliant Thank you so much to Paul Osborne. Okay, Matt, what do you have for me next time? Alice, we are taking a trip to Wales in the mid seventies Oh know, what happened to the sheep? Oh my god I genuinely thought better of you, but not quite Although fararm was involved, Psychedelic Oh, you'll feel right at home without artfilm It has occasionally been said, but no, another clue ' hippies who thought they could change the world. This isn't about an oat cake empire, is it Alice, you're so innocent. No, this is about LSD I see so this is about Yes, I'm talking about one of the world's biggest bust, millions of pounds of LSD, but at the heart of it are a group of people who thought they were saving the world through chemistry Acid King is up next. From Audible Originals and Samazdat audio, this is the fourth and final episode in our series Jade Goody. British Scandal is hosted by me, Alice Levine. And me, Matt Ford. For Samerstat, the producer was Louise Mason. Our series producer was Chk Crez. Our senior producers were Joe Sykes and Dasha Liset Cina