The Execution and Final Legacy

Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of British Scandal ad free right now. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app I'm Matt Ford, and I'm Alice Levine, and this is British Scandal and Audible Originals We have had some incredible royal scandals in recent years Do you think that this scandal could be the worst in British history Well, it was definitely a very dramatic royal scandal. I don't know if it was the worst, but it was definitely the most tragic a cousin killing another cousin Yeah, it's up there, but whose side were you on? Are you team Mary Or are you team Liz? It's sort of funny to be taking Instagram feud sides this many years later. It's hard to support the one that signs the death warrant, but she was in a tricky sitch to just completely trivialise the whole situation. Yeah, I mean she wasn't exactly keen to kill off her cousin, but you know, she's a queen likeike a quQeen. Queen's daughter, Qeen Yeah, I think it's fair to say it's complicated. So to get a real understanding of what the situation was like in Tudor Britain and what these rival queens were faced with We're speaking to a real pro She's the author of the book, Rrival Queens, The betrayal of Mary Queen of Scot. Her latest book, Regina is about a history of women and power. and let's face it, you've almost definitely seen her on TV Professor Kate Williams in the studio after this Alis and Matt here from British Scandal. Matts some news for you. British Scandal is going to Broadway. What? Sorry, not literally, I just mean we're taking it to the stage. Is this your festival crossed wires? We're all the UK's biggest podcasts do live shows across iconic venues in Sheffield the second and fifth of July. That was a beautiful read. Matt and I cordially invite you to our British sccandal live show on Sunday july the fifth. And if we're doing the story I think we are, it is potentially one of the most ridiculous scandals we've ever told. 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Prize awarded if a corner kick goal is scored. for entry details and official rules, visit onverycorner d. com Welcome to British Sandle. Thank you. It's a pleas to have you here. Dellighted to be here We're thinking about Mary Queen of Scots today. Do you think you'd have got on with her? Well, I would not have been in Mary Queen of Scott' circle. Let's put it that. I'm not Scottish, I'm Welsh, but I would not have been in the court circle. I'd have been one of the peasants. But had I suddenly been catapulted into the aristocracy, I think I would have got on with Mary Queen of Scots. She was intelligent, I think she was dynamic, I think she was a kind person And the fact was that she was this generous, interesting, funny, witty woman who everyone liked the problem was that because for so many people, she symbolized power She wasn't a person to them It's sort of impossible to talk about Mary without talking about Elizabeth. How much did they have in common Two queens, one island, and they're both cousins. But I think the big thing that they have in common is that both of them Men are trying to take their power. A woman on the throne is for the men around them, an invitation. They are both a woman in a man's worlds and in Elizabeths case they exclude her from meetings and then they keep trying to press her to Marary. Sovent said I'm not going to call Parliament. this is what you keep saying If I'm not going to call you anymore. But in Mary, the men that try and take her power in a much more violent way. They try and seize her, they try and take her, they sexually assault her. And the fact is that when Mary is sexually assaulted, when she's raped that what happens is all the men, the aristocrats of Scotland, have made an agreement with her assaultter that Mary Queen of Scots will be sexually assaulted, forced into marriage, and then they'll all have power over her. So yes They are two women in a man's world, but Elizabeth is not physically threatened in the way that Mary Queen of Scots is. For Mary Queen of Scots, she's pretty much never safe. If someone had tried to kidnap Elizabeth, it would be You know, a national absolute shock. It would be disgraceful. The man would be immediately executed. There's just no way it's going to happen in the same way So Elizabeth and Mary have a lot in common above all their cousins, above all next in line to Elizabeth's throne is Mary because Mary's grandmother was HenryI's older sister. Now, Henry VI's willill has tried to exclude the Scottish line. It basically was written to keep the Scottish line away from the English throne. but everyone knows that when it comes to blood 've got Henry VI's line, Elizabeth is the last of that. and then the next people that she go to, of course, is the elder sister's line, not the younger sister's line. So Mary Queen of Scots is next in line to Elizabeth's throne, and that's what makes her incredibly powerful, but also to Elizabeth's advisors. That's what makes her so terrifying because if Elizabeth dies without that child Mary is coming to the throne and some of the advisers have been pretty mean to Mary. So you might think, she might say Yeah, about those manners? Maybe I'll have them back. What we think of them being cousins Are we talking proper, proper cousins? Would they have had a familial relationship before all this? I think we call them second cousins, but we would imagine that a cousin is brother and sister child. So Mary Queen of Scotts's parents are not Henry VIII or Katherine Aragon or Anne Bolen's siblings. it's the grandparents who are siblings. So it's not in that strict way, but no They never knew each other. they never met each other, they never had that kind of relationship, but they knew of each other. So there is the age gap of ten years or so. Also there's the fact that Elizabeth Mary Queen of Scotts had a totally different adolesccent. So M ueen of Scotts is queen at just six days old Instead of staying in Scotland as you would, expect of a queen She is actually sent off used as a princess in the marriage market, off she goes to the French royal family to be married to the future king of France. And you know everyone in the entirety of Mary Queen of Scots' story is called Mary or James. So Mary Queen of Scots goes off to France with her four ladies in waiting who are all called James. They are all called James Eetta. They're all called Mary. and she goes to the half brother who's called James. So everyone's called Mary and James. So Mary is brought up in the French court. Now it's a game of Thrones brutal place, but it's a brutal place behind polite smiles. For Elizabeth, her adolescence is totally different She's quite cherished and adored by Henry VIII, but then as soon as Anne Bolen is executed, she falls from favour and she's quite excluded from court. She comes back into favour because her stepmothers like Jane Seymour are kind to her. But basically you have a bit of a brutal upbringing with your Elizabeth. Her mother gets executed. Then Jane Seymour, her stepmother dies in childbirth. Then another stepmother is executed. that's Catherine Howard. thenen Anne of Cleavves, you know, she's the ultimate survivor, but she's pushed out of court for a while. Then Catherine Parr dies in childbirth. So and Katherine Parr's husband, Thomas Seymour, sexually harasses Elizabeth and tries to force her into marriage. So they've got all of that putting you off marriage, then when her brother comes to the throne, she's suspected of being caught up in a conspiracy and nearly executed. then when her sister comes to the throne, she's suspected of being caught up in a conspiracy and nearly executed. so you've had Various mother families AK. You know, exactly. It's the worst family drama. Stepmoth's dying, your mother being executed, your sister and brother trying to chop your heads off. I mean, it's getting pretty extreme. Elizabeth's childhood, however Brutal as it is, she's always been in England. So she's associated with England and when her sister, Mary Tudor is growing iller and iller, Elizabeth really has a sort of shadow cabinet around her. So she's ready to step into place. Whereas Mary is in France, she's isolated, she's associated with France, but she doesn't have that same circle of loyal men who G to the death ball her So it is your sense that Elizabeth saw Mary as a threat or was she not really ering into her daily thinking. Everyone is fearful for Elizabeth's safety apart from Elizabeth. She is totally convinced and she's right that the people won't kill her. Elizabeth says, Oh, everyone loves me. I'm just so popular and she is. I'm adored You don't need to worry and her advisors say, no no, you're going to die. They're trying to kill you. Everyone's trying to kill you. And they're all panicking about her safety. They're those super over cautious bodyguards. and so Mary Queen of Scots is seen as an absolutely public enemy number one by Elizabeth's advisors. That's partly because they fear that Mary's going to try and bring the country back to Catholicism if she comes to the throne. she's not, she hasn' tried to do that in Scotland. Why should she try do that in England? Elizabeth has much more sypathy for Mary Queen of Scots. She's got a lot of sympathy for her. Elizabeth knows that if she punishes Mary Queen of Scots or execut her Everyone's going to blame her. No one's going to blame the advisers. They're all going to say Elizabeth, you bad person. And the fact is that you can cut off the heads of as many men as you want and that's fine. Cut them off. If they come into your bedroom, cut them off for anything. But you cannot cut off the head of a woman without people condemning you a woman, a cousin, a queen. and above all Elizabeth is very clever. She's very bright. She knows that they've both been insulted by sort of sexist anti queen people. So she knows that if people undermine Mary Queen of Scots, if people say she's a bad queen, if people say she's useless on the throne, those ideas will be bound on her. So Elizabeth sees it as To her benefit that Mary Queen of Scots is in a strong position and she's constantly trying to help Mary Queen of Scots and her advisor Oh no, don't. just let the Protestant men take charge instead. So there is this fight between advisors in Elizabeth and I think in the end Elizabeth' advisors, they can go with one woman on the throne, but two it's not going to That's not be ridicul. I know exactly. It's Claudi and test strictly all over again, to be honest with you. Those advisors always get a bad rat, don't? We always imagine them to be deeply machiavellian out for themselves. and obviously it's used the analogy of a shadow cabinet But I guess it's a court because in the shadow cabinet, people have their own mandates and someone in the shadow cabinet could replace the leader, but none of these advisors could become queen or king So what are their agendas? Obviously, we imagine people like Thomas Cromwell and some of the famous ones from the past, but are they all like that? Or would some of them actually have been really good political advisors who genuinely wanted to serve the monarch I think they are really good political advisers. I think they are the brightest and best men of the day. I think they are incredibly intelligent. and I think we see the greatest expansion of the state under Elizabeth I. And you know they're incredible civil servants. and in the end You can be the cleverest, you can be the most intelligent, you can be the most dynamic person But in the sixteenth century, the only way to get on is by serving the crown. You can't go and set up your own startup or business or you know the only way explore your talents and to get to the top of society if you're not royal is to serve the royals. So that's what the greatest men have to do. And William Cecil, Elizabeth's right hand man is a brilliant man but they are also too concerned, too threatened, too fearful of Mary Queen of Scots, who was in the end, no threat to them And also, is it hard to give advice if you feelar you're going get your head chopped off Elizabeth I is much less of a head chopper off than Henry VII. So Henry VII, how many people did he chop heads off? It's hard to know, but I think a conservative estimate is twenty thousand. I've seen estimates in some bloody know it's a lot, isn't it? It's I mean, obviously including a couple of wives, various best friends, his groom of the stool, their job is to go to the loo with you and's sort after job to go to the Lou with the king because you get that intimate one one to one time and you know imagine that Henry VII might have been on the Lou for one. That's where Privyounc comes from. Yes, that's the Privy council comes from. Even he chops off his best friend Henry Norris, who he's been his Lou friend. So that's no guardian. So Henry VI, you know, I've seen between twenty and seventy two thousand. So I mean huge amounts of people O Tfford It's an arena tour. stium isn' it? I mean, if there's such a thing as the afterlife, HenryI has a reckon. There's a lot of people waiting to see him. So Elizabeth does execute, she does execute It is much harder to be executed under Elizabeth. She's much more likely to be a rebellion for someone who is obviously going against the religion of the country. She's less likely to execute her advisers. You' really, really got to get on the wrong side of her. You can't just make a few mistakes like Thomas Cromwell and marry Henry VIII off to the wrong person, but the risk is that you could lose everything. The risk is that the monarch who is all powerful throw you out of favor, you could lose all your power, lose all your glory, and lose a lot of the estates and money that you have. So of course they build up their own levels of wealth. Ething that you have is at the monarch's favor. So you do everything to both make yourself indispensable to the monarch and also stay in power. So I think a lot of Queen of Scot's terrible O only we can protect you is trying to make themselves indispensable to Elizabeth. about working for Putin Well yes. Like Wher for Putin. Yes. You're sort of like a council advisors. You're there totally at his patronage. There's a certain amount of large S that goes with it. you get a gas company or whatever. But if he decides it's over, you're out. And this is how exactly it worked. And we see this under Henry VII, But Elizabeth, you do see a difference. You see there's the beginning of what we would see as a professional civil service. People are much less likely to be in and out on the whims of a monarch. and you certainly see the advancing, I think a monarchy that is less despotic and more of a monarchy that is advisers, listening to the Privy Council. and Elizabeth is increasingly excluded from the key decisions, most chiefly that one of executing M Queen of Scots Obviously Mary is a royal, so by no one's estiminations is a sort of woman of the people, but You've mentioned her treatment as somebody controlled by men, as somebody abused by men How representative is that of a woman's experience Did't two to times. Well Mary's life as a woman in T the Times is very much how life was. I mean You have a situation in sixteenth century England where everything when you get married, everything you own is your husbands, absolutely everything, right down to your shoes and your combs. He has total rights over your person. And if a woman kills her husband, the punishment is much, much more severe than it is for a man who kills his wife. So men and women are treated very differently. And this is what fascinates me about Mary Queen of Scots and the sexual assault and rape of Mary Queen of Scots, is that It happened, but history since then has Sered to say, Oh, are you sure? Well it didn't happen because she was a queen. And the fact is people say, well how could Mary have been assaulted? Because she then marries Bothwell. And why would she do that if he assaulted her? And no one really asked this question in the sixteenth century and I'm not saying sixteenth century had any sophisticated understanding of me too or anything whatsoever, but they did understand the power dynamic and they understood that if a woman is kidnapped by a man And taken to his castle, the reason is he's going to force her into marriage and you have no choice. You have to marry him. Mary thought she was pregnant. Bothwell probably raped Mary, but she married him anyway. But she had no choice. She had no choice. She thought she was pregnant. She knew that all the lords had assented to this and this sort of you can go and rape Mary. We'll all agree to it as long as you share power with us. They'd all agreed to it. So how could she fight back But above all, you know, that's what happens to women. Elizabeth is anomaly in the fact that she's not forced into marriage. and You know, with Elizabeth And Mary, we see the ultimate problem of a queen. In the sixteenth century, they agree Well, okay, we've got to have a woman on the throne. Let's just deal with it because blood is blood. But what do you do about the queen's husband? The quQueen's husband will try and seize power. The quQueen's husband will want to be a king And even if you have a husband who doesn't try and seize power want to be a king, which is what Mary Queen of Scots has, who she surprisingly calls James, when you have that son, he's got no teeth. he can't sit up. It doesn't matter. He's superior to you. It's the beginning of the end of things for her. They are trying to push off the throne because someone can be regent for the son. So Elizabeth knows that if she marries, I mean she has twenty six marriage proposals, at least or every man across Europe wants to marry Elizabeth. She's number one on the marriage market, but she knows that if she marries, she'll be seen as subservient to him And even if she negotiates the power in the relationship of the marriage, which I think she could Still, the minute she has that boy, She could be deposed and that's her fear. So, you know the queen's husband is the biggest question of this period. I found that parallel with the modern conversation about male abusers and women staying close to them I can't believe that we're still having that conversation. Oh, it couldn't have been rape because she spoke to him afterwards. Right. She texted him afterwards. Exactly. She met up with him afterwards. Yes. that totally is it, that rape is only rape when it's a stranger and they hit you over the head and you fight back physically. and this o Mary Queen of Scots set it up. She wanted to marry him and set it up for herself all these misogynist mental gymnastics to try and explain it. It's women's fault. Whatever happens, it's women's fault. And the fact that still it was ninety two or ' ninety one that rape in marriage was made illegal, that it was still legal in the lifetimes of all of us. And that was something you could not prosecute your husband And that idea that a woman is a man's possession and totally subject to male power. But when it comes to rape, if she doesn't fight back If she you know tries to find ways of ameliorating it, it's her fault.mer Queen of Scots, she's the quueen. She's the most powerful woman in the country. She's wealthy. She's got this royal blood, which for many is seen as magical, untouchable. and still She's not just by Bothwell and seized, but also all the other men, her friends and advisors have made this deal with Bothwell that if you rape her and marry her and force her into marriage and share power with us, that's great. That's state sanctioned It's state sanctioned. It is state sanctioned and the only reason why they rise up against Bothwell and Mary is not because she marries him, not because hes sexually assaulted her, but also because he won't share power Both one is one case. Dudley is another There's quite weird sexual politics between Elizabeth and Mary with that monage of tooire. Oh Ddly, yes. Is that unique for the time? Why is she saying to Mary, Marry my ex? Why not? Now, she's a kook. Isn't it some kind of weird sexualistort of set up that Elizabeth can never marry him, so she wants Mary to do so You know what I think? I think it's that Elizabeth Even though she has this circle of men around her, this council, these advisors She knows she can't trust them And she can really, really trust Dudley. They are best friends, they know everything about each other. So she knows that if he marries Mary Queen of Scots, despite Mary Queen of Scottss being so beautiful and charming, that he'll always be on her side. So she puts him in Mary's orbit. And Elizabeth's idea is that they'll all live at court together. So they'll all live in the English court together Robert Mammy. So it was a ridiculous idea. but To me Dudley was Mary's best bet. I mean so much better than Dary who tried to seize power, Dudley wouldn't have tried to be king of Scotland. He just wanted to be Elizabeth's mast of the horse. And I think ifmer Queen of Scots had stayed in Scotland and married Dudley. There were two things she would have got. Number one was the Lords who are so aggressive towards Mary, they would have known that Dudley is there. And Dudley's not just a powerful man, he's also got Elizabeth's seal of approval. so they would have had that Bodyguard. And also Dudley would never be there Dudley would always be in London. With Elizabeth, going riding. So Mary doesn't need a husband. She really needs a sperm donor, so Dudley could have come up. Got her pregnant, gone back And she's got the air. she's got the air that she needs. And I think also would have been intimidated. Eactly, exactly. pop in, pop out. So know Mary would never have agreed to marry him, but I think when you look at the disastrous other husbands that she had, I mean, they're totally terrible Dudley always hanging around with Elizabeth and really showing to the lords around Mary that England's watching you. wouldould have been a good option, but he didn't really want to marry her either. He just wanted to be Yeah. Elizabet taking her writing There are people you're told to trust laawyers, teachers, especially doctors. But what happens when you put your life in someone's hands and they betray you? The hit podcast Doctor Death is back. And this season is unlike any other. Dor. 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So your daily life is one of court ceremony, it's one of court meetings, it's one of meeting with your privy council. It's one of discussing various political and foreign policy issues. And you also have know a huge amount of ceremonies. So you have court occasions, have quits dances, these banquets and dances are not just fun and games, there are ways in which the court shows its hierarchy But the court is a very male world. So we have about roughly a thousand two thousand people in Elizabeth's court. There are a lot of people. Amerary Queen of Scotts's court is smaller, probably more like four or five hundred, but it's still significant The only real women at court are the ladies in Waiting So we might wonder when we look at Henry VI, why does he keep dumping his wives for ladies in Waiting, but the lady in Waitings they're the only women in court. So it is really not dissimilar to the role of a mononarch now, except then you make all the decisions. And did people genuinely believe that women were capable of governing Was it just tolerated because of the bloodline? Absolutely not. People were just desperate by the time they got to Mary and Elizabeth. So you see Henry VII turning the world upside down in the hope of having a male heir. And isn't it the ultimate irony that the best queen is his daughter, Elizabeth I? So he could have just left it at that. still absolutely do not believe that a woman can't come to the throne. but there is no choice because Blood supersedes anything else. So the whole point of monarchy is that blood comes first. And even though Henry VII has illegitimate male children, they cannot supersede the female legitimate line. Now he thinks putting those male children into power, but it's not going to be well received. It has to be the bloodline. So in the end, it has got to be Henry's daughter, Mary, and it's got to be Elizabeth. and we often forget for Elizabeth Her life is made easier, I would argue, because Mary, her sister paves the way. When Mary comes to the throne, there's an act concerning the Queen's majesty that says, Everyone, the quQeen has got majesty in the same way Amanda does, just to say, it's the same. E's Really, how fascinating. So Mary's only on the throne for five years, but really the idea of a quQeen pregnant has been really set up by Mary I. We' have to remember that the law was only changed in twenty thirteen to put birth order in front of pumogenitature. So up until twenty thirteen, you could have a girl and then you could have five more girls But then if you had a boy, he would take the throne, not the girl. So of course We have the situation now that instead of the succession being Charles, Anne Andrew, it is Charles, then Andrew, then Edward. The idea, I think, that Anne was pushed out of the scession by Andrew just underlines what a disastrous idea it was. So no, no one wants a woman on the throne, but they have to have a woman on the throne because there simply is no choice. And Mary the first I'men Elizabet prove above all that a woman can do it. They are popular, they are loved. I mean, Elizabeth creates this incredible iconography of Glorianna with the portraits and the poems and the speeches. I mean, she's almost magical andet Still for so many. It's undeniable that had she married and had she had a son, called him Henry, immediately people would have started to say, H Maybe it's time for you to step back maybe actually Henry should be the king So do you think Elizabeth's success as a queen was policy or was it also about charisma? Did she just sort of charm people as well I think Elizabeth's success was due to absolutely policy. I think Above all, she wanted stability. So we see with her religious settlement She pretty much says, lookook guys, if you just keep up appearances, if you just look like you're going to church, you can do what you want. I'm not seeing into men's hearts. justust don't go against me and I'll let you off. Soon't ask, don't tell. Yeah. Exactly. Don't ask, don't tell. And you know crucifixes are allowed. She has Catholic books herself. withith her sister and her brother, she's seen really the powils of extremism, religious extremisms middle ground and frankly so do the rest of the country. They just want to get on with their lives and they just want to carry on opening shops and pubs, which is what people in the sixteenth century want to do. They want to go shopping and they want to go to the pub. That's what makes Elizabeth. very popular that she says, lookook, just we're just going to settle. We're just going to all sit quietly and we're just going to have stability. So Elizabeth Aims above all for stability. Apparently, Madonna's genius at constantly reinventing herself meant that she kept firing her stylists. She never kept the same onees. She always moved between them. And that's I think what Elizabeth did. She always fired her stylists. She had different portraits, different portraitures and created this brilliant image of Gloriana, the rainbow portrait, these pearls, the Armada portrait. are incredible, I mean, Elizabeth's incredible skill as a woman in a man's world is procrastination You know, every time I go on the internet, there's a big sign. I think it must be my algorithm saying how not to procrastinate. But Elizabeth was the ultimate procrastinator, the ultimate prevaricator. asked to make a decision. Shed prevaricate. She said, I'm not sure. I've got to think about it. Gordon Brown Interesting comparison. I hadn't thought of like Gordon Brown. I mean, certainly Elizabeth was tight on the purse strings and paay the the sailors of the Armada, that wasn't very popular. But yes, Pudent. Prudent. Elizabeth was the brilliant prevaricator and that brought her time in a world of men and when it came to Mary Queen of Scots That was what she expects to do. She was forced to sign the death warrant, She didn't really have any choice, but she really expected to leave Mary on death we said, the men around her since they got their hands on that document, they enacted it without her knowing. So Elizabeth's skill is, I think emmphasis on stability, is emphasis on just letting people live is the brilliance she has at imagery but also being so great at procrastinating. How does Mary compare to Elizabeth then in terms of her relative popularity and the different approaches sheetu What history often likes to do is to say that there are two queens in this island And Elizabeth was a success and Mary was a failure And this totally obviates the fact that they are living in unimaginably different worlds. No one's going to try and sexually seize Elizabeth. I mean, this will be Anathema. This is Henry VII's daughter So Mary's living in a much more violent world and Mary's living in a world in which the men, the aristocrats while she's been in France got used to doing whatever they like and got used to seizing power and they are going to do that. On top of this Elizabeths world doesn't pay much attention to the illegitimate children. The illegitimate of children of Henry VII, not really a threat to her In Mary's world, it's a different perception of the illegitimate children of the king. So her half brother her brother by her father and a mistress, James Stewart, he is a huge threat to her and leads a lot of the plotting against her. and really When Mary comes back from France to take up her throne officially at eighteen Her half brother is behind her and what he wants is her to be a puppet and her to be a puppet and let him govern through her And she's Sing Elizabeth. She doesn't want to be a puppet. She wants to reign for herself and had she been a puppet She would have survived, but she wants to reign for herself and that's brave and that's courageous, but that's why she dies and that's why she is lost and executed. So Mary's life is totally different, but she does a lot of the things which Elizabeth does Mary has Protestants and Catholics on her council. She listens to her ministers, all the things that Elizabeth is congratulated for doing, Mary does too The main difference between Elizabeth and Mary is that Mary knows that she has to get married and Elizabeth doesn't marry. And if Mary hadn't married, She would have been on the throne for a much longer time And so why did Elizabeth and Mary never meet A meeting was Mary's greatest desire. When she comes back from France aged eighteen, that's what she wants above all, to meet Elizabeth. There's talk made of meeting at York But it all crumbles because the advisers think it's going to be too much Catholicism. Mary's going to cause problems. Elizabeths adisors are so heavily Protestant, they're very fearful of Mary. So it doesn't happen. And Mary keeps hoping for it over and over. And even when she's imprisoned, she hopes to meet Elizabeth. really she believes in this so much, it's almost tragic. When she's told she's going to be executed. moment is really when she stops trying to appeal or write to Elizabeth. So she doesn't write to Elizabeth Her letter is to the King of France and she says, I am going to be executed at eight in the morning like a criminal. She doesn't write to Elizabeth anymore, and they didn't meet because Elizabeth advisors didn't want them to meet. That would be a disastrous festival of female power. but also They are fearful that if Mary meets Elizabeth, Elizabeth will be too amenable to her, too nice to Scotland, too nice to Catholic Scotland. I mean, it's not Catholic. Mary has not restored Catholicism, but this is image that she's public enemy number one. And over and over again they say to Elizabeth Mary's trying to kill you, Mary's trying to depose you, and Elizabeth doesn't believe it Mary and Elizabeth do finally meet and they finally meet in death They finally meet in in Westminster Abbey. they are close They are been meeting in death in a way they never met in life because When Mary's son James comes to the throne after Elizabeth dies in sixteen oh three, He disents his mother from where she's been buried in Peterburgh Cathedral, near where she was executed, keeping Catherine of Arogant company. He disents her puts her in Westminster Abbey and he puts her in the biggest lingiest tomb you can imagine and this gigantic tomb that she gets in Westminster Abbey and he writes this incredible script on the tomb. which says she's the daughter, the bride, the mother of kings. He said that she had courageously and vigorously, but vainly fought against the oblliquies of her foes and the crafty devices of her mortal enemies. She was at last struck down by the axe, a president outrageous to royalty. So you know, he's actually saying here her enemies, her crafty foes, not just in Scotland, but also in England, these men that had advised her, and he says, Mistress of Scotland by law of France by marriage, and of England by expectation, blessed by a threefold rite. So James actually gives Mary this gigantic tomb and he writes this huge Instagram post on it saying It's an incredible CV. Yeah, exactly saying. I mean, look at, you know she has got every bit of royal blood you can imagine. Sorry, Elizabeth, but you know, you were rendered illegitimate because you know, your mother hates to mention that say sorry. the elephant in the room one wass talking about. But you'regit know and she's courageously and vigorously fought back against her phes puts this on her tomb And yet that's why she dies because What makes her so powerful is that she's terms next in line to Elizabeth's throne. also is what makes her so dangerous. And the problem is that Elizabeth is seen by much of Catholic Europe illegitimate because the marriage to Ane Boyn was illegitimate and Henry also annulled that marriage just before he executed. I mean, you know, so many people would say onlyn legitimate descendant who' still alive is Mary Queen of Scot How hard do you think it was for Elizabeth to sign Mary's death warrant. It was impossible for Elizabeth to sign Mary's death warrant. She really, really didn't want to do it. She kept saying, William someone like Push it down and says. What if she should have fell over. I mean People have pushed down stairs, haven't they? We've seen But Dudley's wife fell down the stairs, stairs are clearly treacherous places in sixteenth century England. So she keeps saying someomeone just Could you just fall over? A dignified death? Yeah And all the keepers say, Oh no No, no, no, we must keep her safe. Absolutely not. No, no, no. You must sign the warrant, madam. She doesn't want to, for various reasons. She knows. that she'll be blamed for this. She's executed any amount of men absolutely. But executing a woman Executing a queen executing her cousin is going to look bad and she fears particularly that Philip of Spain is this great powerful monarch in Europe. He was married to Elizabeth's half sister Mary. He's tried to marry Elizabeth. She said no, but he's really been kept on side. He's quite friendly with Elizabeth She fears that if she executes Mary Queen of Scots He will take revenge and he will invade. Elizabeth is a very intelligent woman. She knows that theseese men around her are always trying to undermine her and what they are pushing her towards is a figurehead monarchy. Now, of course, constitutional monarchy is what we all want, but it's interesting progresses in the reign of queens and she knows she's being pushed to this and she knows that if you execute a queen then you are undermining the whole principle of Monarchy, the idea that the quQeen is only answable to God, but she's forced into it, they lie to her, they press her into it, They say she has to do it And Elizabeth only signs the death warrant because she believes I am the Qeen. I will have control of when Mary dies, so I'll sign it. But it won't be enacted. Then we have to have more meetings to discuss whether it will be enacted, but instead The minute Elizabeth has signed the death warrant, her advisors seize it. and they enact it as fast as they can before Elizabeth can find out. And that's also the reason why Mary's execution So unndignified, so cruel, so barbaric that we have a situation where The executioner is actually going to undress them on the block and one of the watching men says, that can't happen. It's disgraceful. so her ladies do it. And you know she's executed as she puts it like a criminal in a public execution, and that's because Elizabeth has no clue what's going on. And when Elizabeth hears the news, she's incandescent and she has to beg Forgiveness of Mary's son James V of Scotland. when Victoria, it's clear that she's going to come to the throne There's some talk of changing her name to Elizabeth, but really Elizabeth isn't seen as a good model for Victoria. not just because she hasn't got married and has children, and that's what all women should do But also because she'd executed her cousin, a woman, a queen. And that is seen by the Victorians and indeed by the eighteenth century by the romantics before as really Elizabeth's most terrible act. As Americans, we're constantly grappling with a fundamental question, Do we settle for the world as it is? Or do we strive to create the world as it should be Our answers tend to ebb and flow through the decades. but once Just after a war that nearly tore us apart We came as close as we've come to answering it And it's a story worth a closer look I'm Michelle Obama, and I'm proud to announce Higher Ground's new podcast, Reconstruction the unfinished promise Guided by bestselling author, Malcolm Gladwell and featuring my husband, Barack Obama, this limited series uncovers the untold stories of recconstruction what they mean for us today and how our past can shape the future we choose to build Reconstruction, the Unfinished prromise, is available now on audible or wherever you get your podcast. 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Be fascinated, be fascinating What changed for female leaders after the battle between the two queens that we've covered this series? Well, you might say that nothing had changed for female leaders. We had a brif flowering of female monarchy and then we go back to business as usual. We've got James VI of Scotland coming to be James the F of England and he's got a male heir and on and on it goes Actually, there's something that people often forget is that so not long after James comes to the throne we have the gunpowder plot And the actual aim of the gunpowder plotters was to get rid of James, of course, but it was to put on the throne his daughter, Elizabeth And that is quite fascinating that they wanted another queen on the throne so soon after Elizabeth died. So you do have this movement towards supporting female vle The greatreat leegacy of Elizabeth Mary, Queen of Scots is not just a female w. It's also for the idea that you can execute because On the marvevelous, fabulous bling tomb that James puts up for his mother, M Queen of Scots in Westminster Abbey, he says, May all who are descended from her be blessed by eternal life That's not what happens. So her son comes to the throne. James is so obsessed by Divine right of kings, I think partly because his mother's been executed. He's totally obsessed by Only God can tell me what to do And then who gets executed? his son So Mary Queen of Scot's grandson, Charles I, gets executed for essentially doing your job as king properly. And I think it's very clear that Mary Queen of Scott's execution and trial enables the possibility that then Charles can also be put on trial and executed. So that is one great legacy that we see execution Firing's like the apprentice you can be your fiire as a monarch. But in terms of female rule Elizabeth A Mary I F, after M Mary Queen of Scots. I cannot say that women cannot reign In this story you've described such steeliness and courage and ambition from these women. I wonder if you think of it as a tragedy, not just for Mary but for Elizabeth as well It's totally a tragedy. Mary Queen of Scots is the ultimate tragedy and I think we see everything in terms of women's powerlessness and women's situation in society writ large from sexual assault to seizing her person to the lack of respect to constantly being undermined and betrayed. But we also see that with Elizabeth in a different way, this betrayal, the fact that she was constantly being pushed by her closest friends and advisors. Why aren't you marrying? You have to marry power was taken from her by her closest friends and advisers. So we have these two trag One is a tragedy, It's like ahakespearean play played out in great form. and the other one that's really done in boardrooms and via tudor emails, but still an undermining all the same. And that the fact was there were these two queens. They had more in common than anyone else around them. They both grown up in a very friendless way, they'd had a life of great isolation and suffering and had to survivive by their wits in various courts, they understood each other and their situations more than anyone else And the only way that Elizabeth could survive as Qeen in the end was by being forced into executing her cousin. Are there any parallels between the experience that Elizabeth and Mary had pressures on women in power today. I think there are many, many parallels. These women in power show us above all that we don't want A woman in power? I mean, when are we ever going to elect a woman as president of the United States. even now when we have a situation in which women's equality is enshrined in law, certainly in the UK, most of Europe, we still have a situation by which we don't want women in power. And there's a real fear of women in power is largely that they will give ordinary women Too much And that is, I think, the ultimate fear that a woman in power will, by example or by actual change in the laws will upset the apple cart and mean that women get more freedom And certainly a lot of the women in who have succeeded just be in power cannot do that. They haven't been able to say, o yes, let's loosen divorce law, let's increase equality, let's increase workplace equality. That's a really interesting point. because The three fale prime Ministers we've had have all been right wing The fact that our three prime mininisters have been right winged, do you think that's because effectively either the body politic or by extension, the populace can only tolerate a female leader if they think actually they're a woman, but they're not a feminist That's certainly what history shows to us is that If you want to be elected as a woman, your best chance is being right wing. You are not going to be elected if you're left wing and. And that's well I mean, I think it's very difficult across the world. And I think you also very clearly have to say, I want nothing to do with feminism. You have to say that whatever you believe and you can't surround yourselves with women. Victoria said she was totally against