The True Story of Reasons

Pushkin Earthen and Fire have a wonderful new documentary out now on HBO And just before premiered at Tribecca in New York, the three OGs of the group, vocalist Philip Bailey, singer percussionist Ralph Johnson, and bass player Verdian White stopped by a Broken Reord for a chat As a music podcaster, I always had that famous old saying swirling around my head that talking about music is like dancing about architecture. And none more so than during this particular conversation I mean, Earthw and Fire is a music that in all my experience of it, is just impossible to intellectualize It exists in us and likely in them too. on a spiritual level and therefore also on an emotional level. And I don't think any amount of talking about their music could make us understand any better where it comes from or why it impacts us the way it does What you can glean from talking about them though. is that they're beautiful people Warm, well adorned and committed And I'm sure that's a big part of what makes their records deeply impactful and enduring In our conversation, we talk about Maurice White, the founder, spiritual and musical leader of the group, who also is Verdine's brother listen to some of their music together, and Phillip speills on what the song reasons is actually all about This is Broken record Real musicians, Real Cversations This is an IiHart podcast Guaranteed human I just got back from an amazing family vacation in Northern California It was the perfect reset for our busy lives. Now if you're planning any upcoming trips, you could be listing your space on Airbnb. It's a smart, practical way to make use of your place while you're away and earn some extra cash at the same time And with the cohost network, you could hire a local cohost to handle everything like managing reservations, guest communication, and even styling your space Find a co host at airbnb. com slash host Festival season is here And Apple Cache is an easy and secure way to split the bill. Just send a request money right in your group chat in the messages app Once you're settled up You can spend the money you receive anywhere Apple Pay is accepted Open your wallet app and set up AppleCash today. AppleCash services are provided by Green. Bank, member FDIC Running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software One app for accounting, another for inventory, another for sales. And somehow none of them talk to each other That's where Odu comes in An all in one business management software that brings every part of your business together from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing all in one powerful platform. No messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs And best of all No spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system Try for free today at odu d. com slash heartradio. That's odoo d. com slash iheart radio Here's my interview with Philip Bailey, Ralph Johnson, and Virdian White of Earthen and Fire from Amazon Music Studio one hundred twenty six Man Earth wentt fire That's it, L and in living color. How are you? I'm amazing. I'm amazing. I got done watching your guys's documentary yesterday. Oh wow. I gotta flip through your book, Ralph. It was only sent to me yesterday, so I haven't gotten go through the full thing yet. I read your book a long time ago, so we're covered there U I'm steeped. I've been listening to music for a week. My spirit's high. Good deal. All right. My spirit' high. Very good. veryery good. How you guys feeling Feling good It fantastic. Enjoying this time you know, at home and then all the activities surrounding the documentary in the book and so there's lot going on right through here and we're trying to keep it moving. Yeah, it's amazing. Earth one Fire, it feels like you guys are ever present always, but it feels extra special right now with you guys, since the dock is coming out and I know it's premier in a couple of weeks. It does. I mean, and you know, like I've been saying to the guys You know, because' we're used to a lot of things a lot of stuff happening, but I said This is special Right. You know, you got to you got to slow down and Take a breath because this is special, you know, notot very many people get a chance to witness their body of work done in a documentary, you know Quest L You you know, he's you know he knocks it out the park. Yeah. You know, he's a music historian. Yeah. And so yeah,' we're just going to take a breath and really enjoy this. You guys have had a lot of big moments throughout your career, but at this point you can feel when it is u particular big moment still. Exactly. Right. sureure. I mean, we're here because of that, right? Right R You know, what are we talking about? You know Exactly, exxactly. Yeah. I' have you guys every week if you wantoc No Doc, you know, open door for y'all. You know, the amazing thing about Earthw and Fire is You guys are ever present. becausecause the music always so it wasn't even futuristic. It was just timimeless in the real sense of the word. likeike it could have existed in the sixteen hundreds or in three thousand thirty or now So it never's never felt like' always felt. and I know they've tried to label it at various times and I heard in the documentary prorogressive Soul or different things, but you guys have always just sounded like yourselves and you guys have always had this Uncanny ability, unlike anyone else blend a bunch of styles in a way that just feels coherent and just feels soulful and beautiful I just, I don't know how you guys did that. Like the documentary gave me a hint when it talked about Maurice journaling and his goals were to be and just a paraphrase His first goal was to be a band that can connect to everyone to twowo was to be big, threeree was to change the world And it was like That explains maybe why you guys sounded we sound, But but did that sound crazy to you when you heard it from Maurice back then? know Maurieays vision was to one, render a service to humanity. you know, so there was a a reason for doing the music that was bigger than Hself are ourselves And then, you know Next It was to bring it differentifferent genres of music together and make them commercial So You know, you're there's something in there for everyone. Yeah. you know, not on. one particular song but in the body of work. Yeah You know, so and then the other thing was to bring Broadway to the stage. Yeah, you know, to the concert stage you know, the other one was to elevate the consciousness of you know and Listeners. Yeah and to have a high degree of integrity as a musician because he was like He didn't want to further stereotype Great musicianship, but we're all strung out You know, ye, yeah So all those things were And I, you know, it was really, really inspired All those very clear distinctive directions. were something that he went about riding out and living out. You know, and we were young enough to buy into it And u And then we were fortunate enough to work with cast of so many talented people from the record company to the writers to the arangers rrangers to the musicians, the engineers. So it was it was a lot of things had to connect at the same time and they did. Yeah. And we were in the right place at the right time in front of the right people with the right music. You know, and and the thing about it is the three of us who are sitting here As Philip said, we were young enough to buy into it and to be part of it and to grow within it and be able to express ourselves as well. And Philip said something about and I think They talk about it in the documentaries. You didn't want to be strung out. so no drugs I mean Being healthy and no drugs was part of the It was more of a thing not to cut you off, but. it wasn't something that was like you know, everybody was squeaky clean or whatever But Maurice led by example. And we were young enough for him to be an example to us you know, And it was wor, you know, we werere looking at him and, you know You know, he didn't have to say do this or do that. It was like the proof was in the pudding you know, like his actions were speaking louder than Any words? Yeah You know, and so it's like, well, give me some of that vegetable soup. you know? you know? it's like, let me let me check that out, you know at Johnny Wisemiller on Hollywood Boulevard You know. And I had I was like, whoa, I felt a little lightheaded, you know? first protein first. You know, my first healthy shake. Right and stuff healthy food. But it paid off. It was wonderful. Yes. It was wonderful. Yeah. You know, could it could have been The opposite, you know, like, you know, follow me this way. it led to nothing, but it was Productive. Yeah, it was very positive indeed, you know. And we just kind of continued on along those lines. It made it easy to maybe to buy into to Maurice because he had had that success early with Chess being a drummer, right? which was no small thing. I'm sure you know Verdine having been there like just to He's your brother one day And the next day he's drumming on these hit records and He's making a name forself moving to L.A and starting to. Oh yeah, you know, I was in college. I had it all planned. I was going to be a doctor. I was going to do this. I was going to do that. Anden he called me one day after he had moved to California. afterfter leaving the Ramseay Lewis trio and he said, You want to come to California, man? And I sounded like a little girl I said, sure.. And I got the first thing smoking about a month later. I came out here in California was so different. It was so different. I had never seen so many people and I saw everybody, all the hippies and the music and sounds like boulevard. Oh yeah, all this stuff. And so it was a great learning experience as well, you know, And as I said before in some of our other interviews The three of us became adults together. We grew up together. Yeah What year did you come to LA Vird again june sixth, nineteen seventy, nineteen seventy. And what did it look like? Do you comeing from Chicago? did it What did LA look like Totally different Everybody was friendly Everybody was saying, hello, becausecause you know we come out of Chicago, Everybody you know, you know, holding their chest, you know, nobody they didn't open up to you. But California was like It was just a totally different thing, you know I'd wave to everybody, Hi, how are you? How are you doing? Hey, how are you? Be they were waving right back. you know what I mean? And so it was it was it was a different consciousness. was It was a great feeling. and also I was around an adult Maurice who led me to the right way, particularly in California Be I had never been anyhere. I had never been on a plane, I never left home. I never did anything. And when you got here, you were already and you joined the band, were they already with Warner reccords Yeah that band did with Warner Warner Brothers right? Yeah. Yeah. So you cant you come out. Youven've been anywhere. you come to California and you're playing base for a band that signed a major label. You're playing with your brother. I mean, it had to be Um dream come true. We did the true records on Warner Brothers, ye. and I didn't even look at it. I was so young. I didn't even look at it as a major label. I just look at, we're going to make a record, you know? And and then you know, we just kept doing it and you know, of course that evolved. And and out here in California, you know, that's why I met Philip Yeah, and Ralph. You guys want to talk about how you guys joined the band? I was playing at a club down on Crinta Boulevard. The building still there was called Mavericks Flat. I was playing at a club and oh, you know you know famous It was famousous spot. And I was playing there and Dean and Maurice came into town. They saw me playing with this group called the Masters Children The next thing I knew the guitar player at that time with the group H name was Michael Bal, called me up and asked me if I wanted to audition. I said, yeah, sure So I did the audition and after the audition dine called Marice and Marie said, Well, what do you think? And Birerdin said, Yeahah, he's the cat and We just kind of went off from there Keep going. Did you know Maurice was a drummer? when you try to see Maurice play. Okay. withith Ramseay Lewis. You did. Yeah. liive. Not live. No, I saw it on TV. TV. But I mean but think about this though. A jazz drummer wakes up one day and says, Hm I'm gonna start a pop pop R and B thing. I don't know what it's going to be, but I'm starting it And this is what it is today. Yeah. Who does that? He was very specific about what he wanted to do You know, because and this was what was interesting on the documentary that when Bob Cavalo and several other people talk to Maurice about You know, it the vision that he had was going to be better realized by having some younger guys. Yeah. everybody being Verdine's age. Yeah, you know, then You know That's when they began to look around and they had met me in Denver Well you grew up, right? Yep. ye. And the first band Our bayet opened the show for them, their promotion show. and through, you know, Perry Jones who was a mentor of ours. But yeah, you know, we were able to me Maurice Maurice had on Bell Bottom pants and he smellt like coconut oil. I remember that so distinctly because I'm a, you know, a hicktown Denver boy and we don't know nothing about no No, you know, snet oils or you know like that. So it was like Ou. Well, I knew I I smelled coconuts. you know, But you must have had hippies out and Yeah, you right. O. Heck Yeah. That was Hippie nation. Were you into rock music at all? L. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, very very much so, you know being from Colorado, it was you know pl of music from indigenous music to, you know country to pop to rock to very little R and B music on the radio, We only had it from certain hours of the day. you know, And then later on it became twenty four hours on one of the stations But yeah, my education really in in, uh Cultural music grew being in the fire. Yeah. Yeah. Would you guys listen to music together and pick out what you liked about that It was like a college It was like being in a university because you had Mauricea's comrades, Don, Myerrick and Satterfield and And so they were they were older than us and had a lot more experience overall, musically So they wouldn you know, take us under their wing and mentor us, you know, in, you know into the music and, you know, so it was and we were always together So It was like being on a you know a traveling school Yeah. You just want to play two things, maybe just to illustrate the way the band evolved from those first couple of Warner records where you guys aren't involved yet and then kind of where the sound goes pretty quickly. This one really Get it. Let's sit back Do that? Yeah, remember that yeah. Can ride is on the wall. on sweet back sweet backack. This came out on after you guys left Warner, they put out a greatest hits album. Okay. Look like that. It's never been put out didn Okay But yeah, yeah, yeah.. and it's just more like early on you guys have more of almost just kind of you guys are more funk kind of in the in the It's less jazzy, you know? It's a little less jazzy. Right. Blues rooted. R. Music. Not that it givs away from the blues So this is great when you go from like this kind of a thing And sweet sweet back swack with Melvin Van Peles to s like this, which is just a One, two years later. I want wait for the vocal to come in real quick. A S It's like you can hear the old band and then you can hear How it filled out even more with you guys? W the genenesis is there. the genenesis there all the in the beginning, you know, Yeah, you know, had it was growing, but the genenesis of Earth when and fire was there. Yeah. But this right here is the nine. This is the group that would go on to conquer the world. Yeah. ye, you know. Yeah. Yeah, conceptually you can hear that Maur' had a vision for the music from the first Earth Wning fire because when you listen to Sherry Scott, you know, I think about loving you and all that kind of stuff, well, you know, I'm I'm the second generation. Yeah, you know, so like you listen ahead to the sky you know, you you can hear that it's not so out of the blue because it, you know It was there with those records that they were doing you know, but this is just a different you know It's like an extension. E extension. Right. Really almost feels like an It's like almost just like music It's like a chord, regular chord, and then you just add the ninth, eleventh, good analogy. Yeah. Who were the not? You said those were the you know, you want to say that Well, you had Maurice Dean Phil Yeah, Johnny No B both on guitar. Right, right? You had Larry on keyboards. Yeah. L had myself and Freddy and then Andrew. Yeah, the nine. Yeah. And then even beyond that, then someone like on that Jessica cleaves Jessic C cleleavves is on there too. But Jessica would leave and we would be left with the nine guys. Yeah. You know. So it's just unbelievable. How did you guys so just like you said This is a band Maurice is a drummer You're a drummer Virt drummer. Philips a drummer Verdine and Marice's brother, Fred is a drummer Yep. And Al McCay was a drummer. Right Mcay was a drummer. You're you're singer Maurice iss a singer. you're a singer Jessicus cleaves the singer It's like how did you guys balance the embarrassment and riches you guys had in the group How did you orchestrate? How did you know if someone came in the city with a song, how did you know who was going to do what? Well, it kind of evolved, you Maurie's being the spearhead S. He didn't always know exactly what he wanted, but he knew what he didn't want. You know. And so you know if There were ideas that that fit into you know, the consciousness of where he was going for the band, he would develop those ideas. Would you guys just try to if he knew what he didn't necessarily always know exactly what we wanted butew what we didn't want. W that mean that you guys would just try to contribute things The funny thing though, You could always tell when he didn't like something. someone He go. know, right? Yeah Yeah, pretty pretty nice little old piece you got there. You know, he would say very little about it or he would call or he would say pretty nice little L yeah, a little bit that's what that your heart. That's it's like it was like you know that, you know, that was a blush your heart. Al blush your heart.ot. not yet But if he if if if there was something that you know, that you that you brought that you know, cllick with him He would jump right he would jump right on it, you know, like my first collaboration was evil You know, and it was like it was surreal to me because I had this idea And I showed it to him. and then the next thing I knew He said, you know that, you know that little piece she was showing me Oh this is what I did with it. Like what? How did you bring evil toone? What did you? I had the the seat plot the evil thing and I had lyrics and I had a melody and stuff, but he flipped he flipped all that. he really heard, you know What I was trying to do You know, Yeah. And it it was inspiring to him enough to take the situation and ip. Wow. Here's a question. So at the time that you started writing with him Did you really, really understand the value of the writing and the publishing side of it? Oh heck no. Okay. Yeah. I ain't understand that til yesterday. Oh man. Oh wow. okay yeah. I'm still waiting. There may be some money out there Yeah exact. I'm still waiting for you to explain all that. Oh my God. Okay. Yes. But you were a co writer on that, right? You did get a credit on that. Yeah Yeahah, that's why I say that was my first Yeah You know, real co written Yeah venture. Yeah We'll be back with more from Earthlood and Fire after the break I just got back from an amazing family vacation in Northern California After years of trips to large cities, my wife and I took off north with the kids to Marin, just north of San Francisco where we spent all of our time in Redwood Forest hiking places like Bear Valley, D to Stinon Beach It was the perfect reset for our busy lives. Plus, the drive was long and car time with the kids always makes for magical moments Trips like that are truly unforgettable, and what makes it even better is booking your stays on Airbnb Now if you're planning any upcoming trips, you could be listing your space on Airbnb It's a smart, practical way to make use of your place while you're away and earn some extra cash at the same time. And with the cohost network, you could hire a local cohost to handle everything like creating your listing, managing reservations, guest communication, on site support, and even styling your space So while you're making your own memories, your home can be helping another family make theirs Find a co host at airbnb. com slash host. Running a small business takes everything you've got. But with chase for business, you're not alone They bring together local support and a broad range of resources to more than seven million customers. With a deep understanding of your day to day needs, they provide products and guidance built to help you thrive Right now earn five hundred dollars when you open a new Chase businessus complete checking account for new business checking customers with qualifying activities. Offer expires june eighteenth, twenty twenty six Chase Business Comte checking has the flexible tools you need to accept payments, make deposits, and manage your finances with confidence Learn more at chase d. com slash podcast Biz offffer Chase, make more of what's yours. Fees may apply to Chase businessus complete checking accounts. The hundred dollars offer is available for new business checking accounts with qualifying activities through june eighteenth, twenty twenty six Eigibility and qualification requirements must be met Additional restrictions may apply, please speak with the business banker for more information. JP Morgan Chase Bank andA Remember FDIC If your business runs on five different apps, twelve browser tabs, and one spreadsheet that everyone's afraid to touch It's probably time for Odu. Odo is an all in one business management software that connects every part of your business into one powerful, easy to use platform So instead of wasting time switching between disconnected systems, your entire business works together in real time Your team moves faster, your data stays accurate, and you can actually focus on growing your business Let one unified system run your entire business From the first opportunity to the final payment, everything works together in one place Whether you're a small business or managing a large operation Odoo gives you one flexible platform built to grow with you Try for free today at odoo. com slash iheart radio O dOo. com slash iheart radio And forir Ding, how did your you were such a unique base player I mean, you have the Lowan thing going. you kind of have that cool James Jamerson melodic harmonic complexity thing going like I mean, but you you're almost like the best of all. Like you have a little bit of everything of all those different styles in you. You know what I mean? Well, for me first of all, you know, I love the bass. you know I love the sound of it when I first saw the bass to me it spoke to me. You know, he said, I want to play this based came at me. Wow, you know, and it was upright base. Base is bigger than I was at the time, you know And and then I was able to like really coming out of Chicago, you know, you know, you you were talking earlier out of different genres of music, comoming out of Chicago, you know, R and B Jazz, pop You know, there was a lot of different genres for me to pull from. Yeah. So when I would hear something, I automatically heard the bass within it. And then when I came to California It really crystallized because we were able to I was able to really concentrate on On music. on the base and then later on putting the base where the where the bass fit. Yeah. you know, you know, because at first when I f started playing, cut the bass up, cut the base up. Well You to put the base within the track of what it sounds like. In other words, you don't want it just to stand out. Right. You wanted to stand out in a certain way, but you wanted to be part of the song. Yeah, you know, and thats that's what I learned when I came here. And you played earlier two songs. Yeah. But for me the first two Earth M and Fire records, I was sort of like winging it a little bit, you know, I winging it. but the record That crystallized for me was the Need of love album. Really? Yeahah, from me a tune. Energy I'm going to play That's really when it came together for me because The recreord is much looser You know, I was really hearing Growing into it, growing into it, whereereas I was just trying to hang on the first record. You know. I did a record. Oh, o, o whereas now I'm doing a record. So how do I implant myself within the record? Yeah. And the tune that did it for me was a tune called ennergy. Egy. was that I could feel it in my bone going R have to be alone Right, right, right. And then then it goes left He goes left into some moues. David stuff And I was right there with it too, man, you know, and that was those were those were things that couldn't be explained. Yeah. When you get to this section you got to do this here. It was like it just, you just knew you had to hear it It just it just switched. It just went. You know, because it started off as a drum solo with Maurice doing it. Yeah. Then got into the tune and all of a sudden it just turned and it just kept it kept it kept going. Yeah. But you know, it's, you know, that story' a testament to the fact that Vverdting was not only really, really gifted as a musician basis, but he was destined It was destiny You know, because when you tell when he tells that story and you think about, you know, the what most musicians know at a certain point in their careers and their recording careers. He was so young to it You know, Yeah. And and laying it down in a fashion in which he did was just very extraordordinary. And I think just to illustrate that too and what Maurice brought to a song and what you guys also collectively as a group brought to a song, I want to play a little bit of of the creative source version of You C't Hide love playload or your version. You can just hear the difference between how you guys get a hold of a song and, you know in creative source? No, he wasn't in it. Okay, It's cool. But it's not a classic until. Right, Right. snap got a h whileall ever Charles Stepney. Yeah in Re on to the Tes I think'm done for You b my love. It's like you can hear the song actually now Yeah. And there's still this crazy arrangement around it, but it doesn't distract from the song. That other version as we called it, it was a hiippper version. Yeah. It was hip. Whereas the other version of Canlve kind of remind me of a fifth dimension. It' very much a fifth dimension concept dimension concept, right Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's the way it. But it was interesting the C skip and Jerry and them were very they were working with, you know, the fifth dimensions, writing songs and stuff, working with friends of distinction and the Fs of distinction and all that kind of stuff. So you can kind of see where that where that was going, more vocal group. Yeah really. But That dog on Charles Stephney Yeah man was just, you know, if there wasn't a Charles Stephneany, there wouldn not be an eararth twenty fire. That's right because he was just he was that important to you know, what we were to become. Right So Maurice was the visionary But Charles get was able to. he was the consummate writer producers. musician a ranger that he was able to to really hear where Muray's thought he wanted to go and say, okay, this is the way you arrive at that destination. Yeah. This is the way you do it. And I can show you. For people who don't know do you guys want to say who Charles Stepneanyy. So I don't think it's a name everyone readily knows, you know, but ye and it's it's a shame because Charles Stepney was the co producer And I'll take the co off. You know, he was the producer with Maurice on Um The records Aranger and and the Aranger and, you know, and, you know, he he was able to guide me as a vocalist on how to sing reasons and how to record, how to think you know, and and when not to think, you know, but he was like a He was like a big brother and you know, a counselor. was was he was he could be everything, you know, to us at just the right time. He was like our Quincy Jones. Yeah. O George Martin that the Beatles had Yeah because we had these ideas, but he was able to walk us through it and as Phillip said how to get there. Yeah. But he did it in a way he would teach you, you know, like he would on basis, he said, okay, give me a double stop And I didn't know what double stop was. So so we said, OK, we're going to put it together. We're going to see G and a use. go down Then we would go down scale, go down. And he would teach you why you were doing it. He would. He would really teach you. and he would and it wouldn't always it wouldn't go above your head, you know, because, you know, these progressions and stuff We might have not been a lot of musicians might not have been as sophisticated as the ones that are playing in our band today Yeah. you know Yeah. But Charles was able to say, you know playay this triad and leave this out You know, you play this and leave this, you know, and and derive at at what he wanted to hear without overwhelming the musicians with the theory. that's and that's big part the arrangements are such a crucial part of you guys because just like in that song, it's like the arrangement is It' reallyally insane. It's really crazy. It's a wild arrangement, but doesn't obscure the song. It doesn't obscure what you guys are doing with the song. Exactly. It's very similar to Quincy or George Martin, you're right. Like the way it's Yk could really take musicians and teach them something different, but not take away from the song There was and album Charles Stephne' they his family put out an album of some of his stuff before and on it a couple of years ago They have the early demo of Vasts Way of the World on there Oh, play a little bit of that Is it like a salsa kind of thing? Whoa, reallyally? 'Cause I remember hearing that's the way the world, but it was a different groove Okay, so really it this is how we would hear stuff that Charles would bring because he would beep down in that basement basement, tickering and stuff and he would That's exact there we started on that mood synthesizer Barry took it and ran with me As cool as that is, I mean for to turn up For this to be the final result. Well, that's what the production is about. Yeah. I did it And then it was about it was about the fact that we had all the right people at the right time, right. You know, You know, if you take any of those ingredients out, it couldn't have been what it was. Almcay It's so much a part of greatness of what the earth when fire became because he was the guy who could take Whatever idea and make it funky. Yeah. You know, really really put a groove on it, you know. and u You know, and because Hayman and Verdine work so so closely together If you got Virdin and O going in this in a certain direction, you got half the band is Yeah half the work is done. You call him sweetf. And Sweetets would say it's right here. it's right here. Don't gohere. And he could hold that groove man for an hour and a half and it would just get better and better and better, better. I mean like like like a Philipet, you know Uak up b I mean, all those things that you can't Put on paper. Yeah. So you and him would really like that. Yeah. we had like a sixth sense where it was gonna go. Wow. And even if the notes are wrong, they sounded good after you played it with them That's amazing, Yeah man More from Earthwood and Fire after the break I just got back from an amazing family vacation in Northern California After years of trips to large cities, my wife and I took off north with the kids to Marin, just north of San Francisco where we spent all of our time in Redwood Forest hiking places like Bear Valley, down to Stinon Beach It was the perfect reset for our busy lives. Plus, the drive was long and car time with the kids always makes for magical moments Trips like that are truly unforgettable, and what makes it even better is booking your stays on Airbnb Now if you're planning any upcoming trips, you could be listing your space on Airbnb It's a smart practical way to make use of your place while you're away and earn some extra cash at the same time And with the cohost network, you could hire a local cohost to handle everything like creating your listing, managing reservations, guest communication, on site support, and even styling your space So while you're making your own memories, your home can be helping another family make theirs Find a co host at airbnb. com slash host Running a small business takes everything you've got, but with chase for business, you're not alone They bring together local support and a broad range of resources to more than seven million customers. With a deep understanding of your day to day needs, they provide products and guidance built to help you thrive Right now earn five hundred dollars when you open a new Chase business complete checking account for new business checking customers with qualifying activities. Offer expires june eighteenth, twenty twenty six Chase Business Complete C checking has the flexible tools you need to accept payments, make deposits, and manage your finances with confidence Learn more at chase. com slash podcast Biz offer Chase, make more of what's yours Fees may apply to Chase Business complete checking accounts. The hundred dollars offer is available for new business checking accounts with qualifying activities through june eighteenth, twenty twenty six Eligibility and qualification requirements must be met Additional restrictions may apply, please speak with the business banker for more information. JP Morgan Chase Bank. NA Remember FDIC It's Jacob Goldstein from Business History. In our new series, American Genius, we tell the stories of three great writers who changed the way business works in America Our first episode is about Benjamin Franklin Among many other things, was a best selling business writer takeake a listen He's writing this much later in his life. consonsciously creating this image of himself I do want to emphasize how unusual this model is at the time, this self made man myth because you don't want to be self made. It's low class to be self made. You know, this idea that we have today is the opposite, right? And it comes from Franklin. todayoday. there is the derisive term neepo baiting. Well, exactly right. And these days, if you are a billionaire, you had better have a Benjamin Franklin story about starting in a garage, coming up with the idea from nothing. And here is Benjamin Franklin inventing it right before our eyes been brought to you by Odu T listen to more of our American Gius series, listen to business history New episodes release every Wednesday on the IiHart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts I want to play, u a little bit of your point of like how Almc K could make anything funky. When you strip back And also this shhining star goes back to Colorado also because I didn't know until saw the dock that You guys are out recording at cararibou ranch in Colorado and Maris goes out for a walk and sees the stars and comes with that if for shinine star But for this opening groove, I mean, it's such a funky song, such a classic funk song. But when you listen to that opening Re reallyally just like a boogy woogie blues like a let go. that opening mag just He made it so funky and you right in there with the interplay with them Verdine. Yeah. it's just a blue It's really just like a blues. It's like a fast waller kind of like a riff or something. Also to Philip had said earlier, there were so many people that helped us. Another major component was George Massenberg In terms of that sound to get the sound out of those instruments. Yeah, you know, partic Black rope Sonically that when you heard it, you would say, Oh my God. George was a big, big part of that. It was inspiring. his what he would bring would inspire other stuff Really And he was an electrical engineer. He had a George, had a room at the complex in the back where he would just, if he wasn't in the studio working on music, he was back there tinkering. a solder and iron and a transistor here, a diode over here. You know, he was always back there. And he has an I mean, his name in engineering world is his name of engineergpeachable But he wasn't George Masenberg when you guys were starting M right Maurys hunted him down. He found he was I don't remember the exact story, but But when he when he heard about George U And I think he was living in the Washington, DC area Baltimore Baltimore W. And where actually, you know sought him out you know, and, uh brought him into the fold. I always wanted to ask you guys about we talked about Charles Stephney and the influence he had. but you know, he died too soon, too young. And you in the middle of making spirit. We working on spirit. Sirit of man. As a matter of fact, we're about to cut the track spirit I was on the drums and Maurice got the phone call. They've Steep had just passed And we just went on and cut that track. but that's right after we got the news. I remember that clearly. Wow. Clearly in the man that had to be heavy. Well Yeah, it was very it was very White heav Earth shattering. Yeah. I mean, you know. But you know, the thing that amazes me is like the next record you guys do after Spirit all in all, he wasn't there to help guide you guys And it is just one of the all time in my mind Like it's hard to pick a favorite Earthwinning fire album. But all in all the fact that you guys It's not just you guys saying your kind of mentor or maybe Maurice's mentor is not there. And you guys go in and cut You know, I mean, All in all starts off a serpenting fire, goes into fantasy Jupiter loves holiday Bejo I'll write a song for you, which is like a great feature for you, Philip and Magic mind running Brazil doing Wne shorters Pontte Aia. you just put an insane album So you guys didn't miss a beat really, you know Musically Yeah, well, I'm sure you missed him obviously, but musically you guys were just You know you can't take anything away from from Marsa's genius U And you know, when we talk about step, it doesn't take anything away from Maurice. It just gives Charles what he deserves.. You know, It was very important that we do that because he meant that much to us. Yeah. Do you remember the idea of having to make a record without him being around? Yeah. We were fortunate, like I said, not to be redundant. We're fortunate enough that if you worked with us, it was you were accomplished in your craft. Yeah Reese didn't pick people to work with that were, you know, not excellent in what they in what they did. So all of the major people we knew and, you know He would go after whatever He was hearing in his head, he would go after the right ingredients Yeah to add in there. Do you guys have a favorite Earthw and Fire album They're all your kid They're all your kids, man, you know, you're th think I will say this. if you asked us maybe ten, twenty years ago, we could give you like one. Yeah. But now the time has passed, there's just so many of them and you love them all for different reasons of what they brought. Yeah. I was heartbroken that faces was did not do any, you know what the otherr it because really ton of great material in there. There's a lot of great material on that on that record. I think some of the greatest works that we did collectively, some of it is on faces. That's a really good record. It really is sail away Yeah Yeah, one of my favorites off of there I always wonder if I had to do if this was one of the first records where in a while where it wasn't cover wasn't like psychedelic. It wasn't like the cover was it was just faces. was really simple and really it was beautiful in this way, but it was really simple. And you guys had these really almost like funkedelic. you guys had really signature album covers for such a stretch, you know In faces there was a young man Oh Boombox. That was Chakak Kan's brother. Really? Yeah Yeah, you know, u random shots of people, and it was faces. Yeahah, ye How much were you guys like connected to the other artists around like Shaka or even like you know you guys do like a way and shorter song. He's around with Herbie. Quincy's making stuff. Like are you guys? We were managed by the same management group as Weather Report. And so we did several stintents where we we'd gig together with That was fantastic just to hear, you know, Joeavvenue and Wayne and them, you know, like play before us It was like it was crazy. We played some colleges and stuff together. Wow. you know, But you know, interestingly enough We were kind of in a bubble Right. I didn't really to really branch out and know people til we got in we broke up, you know, for those of you years and eight Yeah. Because we were just we were always working, always planning to work. Yeah On tour. O tour. and you gota have to understand that we went from mama's house to Earth went and fire. That's right That's right. Yeah, you guys got plugged right out of home, right? And coming from my house I met a new brother And another brother, Ralph. So it's like it was just like an extension. So we didn't know anybody but us. Yeah. It's amazing. I was reading through your book a bit last night and reading a little bit about that period where you guys you know, went separate ways as a group for a while.ight. And in it, you really talk about wrestling with, is this a break? Is this the rest of my life? A am I doing music? That kind of break the way it was done would cause you to think that. Yeah. Yeah. you know. Yeah. becausecause it was just like a meeting and then, okay Run a break That's how quickly it happened. And that's the way it happened. you know So Yeahah, it cause you to you pause about your future. And you have success producing with Alma Kay, the ts Yeah. But then you also start doing construction and you're working at a stereo store Federated stereooss S say L Brea. When I was reading through that, what struck me was Now forty years later You guys are It's like you guys know it's like that window as as probably emotionally fraght as it was at the at that point was such a small window in the overall When you look at the overall picture, the overall picture of the group. was just a moment. You would never know that that moment happened and the fact that the three of you withithout Maurice. no, sadly without so many people that we've lost that you guys are able to continue to give the gift of Earth when and fire to the world forty years after You guys coming back together and around nineteen eighty six, nineteeny seven It's just It's mind boggling. Well, one of the things that the book talks about is resilience and able to bounce back. Yeah. You gott to be able to do. But but in those forty years and those little glitches You know it all wasn't roses you know, we were growing. were we were discovering ourselves. you know. And then as I mentioned, in the dooc, a lot of the bigger things that happened for us happen later. You know, Normally a lot of people would get acolades up at the top. We got a lot of ours on the back end, you know, as we call it the back nine, you know, and part of that had a lot to do with, I think, with the technology of sampling. of the artists coming along discovering us and stampling our music in their music. And so and the parents, you know, like your parents was telling you about us. and it started working