Touring and Future Outlook

Pushkin Jo Jackson isn an Amob. He showed up in seventy eight seventy nine on the UK's newew Wave scene, All Nervous Energy and Bing Wit It's like iss really going out with him, putting him in the same conversation as Elvis Costello and Squeeze But where a lot of his peers stayed in that lane, Jackson kept moving. into the jump blue swing of jump and Dive into the sophisticated Latin tinged jazz sounds on night and Day into classical composition into a musical concept album under an alter ego named Max Champion and so much more He's rarely made the same record twice, and that restlessness has probably cost him the kind of mainstream consistency that turns an artist into a household name can't help but love the boldness of his approach evenven if it's made him over the course of his career a little unknowable to fans I was hoping by the end of a conversation, he might be a little more knowable And I don't know if that really happened, but I do think I have a bit of a better sense as to why he's maintained a sense of mystery throughout his career And really, I think it's because he just doesn't take himself all that seriously O today's episode, I speak with Joe Jackson about his new studio album, Hope and Fury and dig in some of the songwriting on it and some of his older albums Plus, we discuss Joe's collaboration with his longime criminally underrated base player, Gram Mabbe and get into what makes comedy an important part of Joe's artistic sensibility This is Broken Record. Real Musicians Real Conversations This is an iHart podcast Guaranteed human Embrace the haze with hazy little thing from Sierra Nevada. If you saw the headliner when they played at the bar, or stop your friends mid festival to look at the stars, if you're up for whatever the night brings that embrace the haze with hazy little things Hazy, citrusy smooth Brewed with the purest ingredients for finest quality There's a reason it's America's best selling hazy IPA Embrace the haze, the Sierra Nevada hazy littleittle thing enjoy responsibility My kid's favorite place in the entire world to visit is New York City. so much so that they're begging me to come on my work trip I'm taking there in the next few weeks. And this time they want to go to Central Park because we missed it last time. If you're planning any upcoming trips, instead of letting your home sit empty while you're gone, you could be listing your space on Airbnb, giving travelers, like me, a place to land while they visit somewhere new It's a smart, practical way to make use of your place while you're away and earn some extra cash at the same time And now with the cohost network, you could hire a local co host to handle everything like managing reservations, guest communication, and even styling your space. Find a cohost at airbnb dot com slash host. When you own your own business, you own every decision Now own the card that rewards you for it Chase Sapphire Reserve for Business is a pay and full car that elevates your travel experience and offers premium benefits that will take your business to the next level Sapphire Reserve for Business offers eight X points on all purchases through chase travel, three X points on social media and search engine advertising, airport lounge access, and more Chase Sapphire Reserve for Bus. It's the card that gives you back all you put in. Learn more at chase d. com forward slash reseserve businessus chase for business, make more of what's yours A accounts subject to credit approval, restrictions and limitations apply Cards are issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank N a Remember FDIC Here's my interview with Joe Jackson from Amazon Music Studio one hundred twenty six Rowack I forgot we did this firstion. This is pretty cool. It's amazing we might think I human. You want me too Wow, I've had this for a while Hh, It's such a gray rit. I don't wantan to turn it off. D line up What you doing? I' be business S to a guy My name is been by N York G We want to think about you Yeahwer that you want me to I'll let break it out You gotta do them It's to, yeah ye Damn It' weird it It's kind of strange that you picked that one that you did that. I always thought it could have been written about me. because I can't sing, I ain't pretty and my legs are thin So you know That fits Yeah, I'd completely forgotten we did the version of that actually. It But it sort of has this Afro Cuban vibe going through it. So I mean, if I ever do a cover version of something, it's because I can see a way to do it that's different to the original version. I don't know there' any point in that So you see, you definitely sense a way to do it different. but there's also probably something about it. You sense that must feel familiar in some way or feel like it fits also. Yeah, I suppose so. year. It's more about, you know, Can I see a different way to do it that's interesting? And can I sing it? A I actually capable of singing it? I mean, that wasn't hard to sing Yeah. Did you know that song from one of the first way back Yeah, but I mean, it wasn't something that I mean I don't know. it just I guess maybe I heard it on radio somewhere or something and thought,, I could see a way to do that. Yeah. I don't remember now. It's kind of like a lost Fleetwood Mac classic, you know? Yeah, I mean, it's not what you think of when you think of Fleetwood Mac is it? No. notot for a long time. It hasn't. But Peter Greene who wrote that who was the you know, leading the band at the time did a I mean I don't know, maybe I'm basing this based on Santanna taking u or doing, u Oh Back Magic woman. Oh, right. Yeah, I was gonna say o, come on byub, doing Black Magic Woman, which she wrote, but I always feel like he had a bit of a Latin flare. Yeah. I don't know. the right S. No. T't know. No, okay You certainly do it. Yeah, well, yeah, I'm a Latin music nut.. When did that start? I'll tell you exactly because I was in London in nineteen seventy eight, something like that. It was around the time that I recorded my first album And I went into a second handand record shop I saw this speat up LP It's called Sala Live by the Fanier All Stars And I was intrigued by it Because the cover art was a of painting of Latin musicians standing on the platform in the New York subway. And this was in the seventies and all the trains are covered in graffiti and stuff. And they looked like gangsters, you know with their instrument cases and like big broad brimmed hats and stuff. And I thought, this looks really cool. And I took it home and listened to it, and I couldn't make sense of it. I couldn't understand the rhythms. They were alien to me I was so fascinated by it. I started reaching out to everyone I knew in London, all the musicians I knew London. Does anyone know any Latin percussionists, any Latin musicians who can kind of teach me about this music and managed to find a couple of people and That's where it started. And then when I got to New York, one of the things that I was most interested in was the Latin music scene so You know, the first tours that I ever did in the US, we would always be sort of based in New York And we would have days off you know, like the early eighties and I would be going to Latin gigs. U Most of my band and crew they wanted to go to the CBGBs, you know? whichich is great too, right And they didn't get it at all I thought it was crazy, but it was an amazing time for Latin music in New York. It was such a vibrant scene. I just loved it. Where would you go at that time for Latin music if you? There was I mean, I would go to places like the Corsso Latin Ballrooom on one hundred twentyi fifth street wow and then they there was a thing called Salsa meets Jazz Monday nights at the Village Gate Greenwich Village, which was amazing They would have a couple of the top Latin bands in the city and then they would have guess jazz soloist playing with them. People like Stany Turrentine and Nat Adely and you know, like really great players. That was incredible. I went every week. That's why. I loved. never heard those guys do anything Latin. I don't, you know, Yeah I can recall Stly turnurned to you know. He wass pretty Yeahah yeah. Th think of him as being pretty smooth in terms of pretty aoulful player. Yeahful player. Yeah, you know, Yeah. But there would also be people like Pacquito de Rivera, who's both Latin and a great jazz player, you know But I saw so many great artists there. I mean, everyone who was Ray Boretto was my favorite. I saw so many gigs of Rayoretto. always had the greatest bands. It was so exciting. Yeah. I couldn't understand why my peers were not into this music Yeah, was any wasas there ever I'm trying to, I mean, I guess it didn't really come around in popular music until like Miami sound machine or something, you know? Oh right, yeah. P probablyb a bit of it with Santana, I guess But whose brother actually not to think about. Yeahah, his brother was in a band that I think was signed of Fanya. U his brother was I think in that group Malo or something Moo And I think I think they were signing to find you, but they were like a more they were kind of like Santana but even more Like kind of more down the Latin rock niche than even Santana was, you know. But nothing from but fine didn't seem to really get too much trraction in mainstream music, you know? But I mean, yeah, if you see mainstream as being Anglo American pop rock, which most people did, but sadly it is But I don't know it is. But I mean, you know, when I first started living in New York in the eighties, I was going to Latin gigs and jazz gigs all the time And that to me was the sound of New York. You know, to me it was it was a Latin and jazz town rather than a Rck town. Yeah. So that was very much what fed into my album night and day which I thought no one was gonna to like air what was a huge departure from the first Th hour Yeah. That's one of the reasons I thought no one would like it And in hindsight, it was a quick you made that detour I mean, it's the fourth album, but it's only like three years later in nineteen eighty one, I guess that album. Yeah, but years were years back then. So tell me about that? Well they lasted a lot longer than they do now You know I mean this is between your third first and third and fourth albums. Yeah, looking back it was just a few years, but at the time it didn't seem like, o, it's you know, we made an album last week. Let's make another one this week. It didn't feel like that at the time. Yeah. And yet, that's what you were doing. I mean the first two albums Well came out in the same year. yeah. reccorded months ofing months Well one we recorded in the summer of ' seventy eight and it came out in January seventy nine. Yeah on the second one, I can't remember when we recorded. I think it came out in seeptember ' seventy nine. Okay. But yeah, I mean, who puts that two albums a year? The Beatles and the Beatles did, yeah, you know? Well, back there people did, yeah Yeah Was there a reason you did? Like was there No, it was just like really thinking about that much I just had enough songs for another album and everyone seemed to want to do it. so ye What was What was your relationship with A andM like at that time? It was pretty good, I think. Yeah.. And they were a pretty good, pretty good label at the time. Incredible label. Yeah, I mean, they had to A lot of great people and No, it was a really different era when the record company made a difference. Yeah. But it's also like you would A andM was, you know, it's like Kurp Albert and Jerry Moss. That's the the founders is the A and M in it. and then, you know And' it's a substantial label, you know, And And ye, it was an independent. And yet it wasn't independent.. Butt but because those guys were such record, you know, record industry guys. but they were also musicians. but they were also musicians Originally. Did you meet them ever? Oh, yeah, both of them yeah. What were they like? Jerry Musk seemed like a pretty cool guy. I mean, I met him a few times. H I only met once once or twice, I think, and he just seemed like incredibly laid back. Yeah. I don't know how much they had to do with my career to be honest. I don't think they were the people most involved. It's interesting that also you recorded The first album. before the police' first I mean, the police were label maates. Yes. And their first album came out after it did recorded your first album. It came out before I thought it was the way around I don't remember. Well it came out before yours came out, but you recorded yours before it came out. which is interesting just because it feels like they were sort of the you know more about this than me?ve I'll just shut up and tell it like it is I No.' about your career. Yeah. I did not know that. But yeah, we were contemporaries and squeee as well as the other band that were We' like But like I said, time was took was so much bigger than, you know, the fact that someone's first album came out six months before or after mine might have seemed quite significant at the time. Yeah. It certainly doesn't now. Yeah. I guess where I was going with the police comment was in kind of I think most people's popular imaginations like it felt like They were the police were sort of the lead off to I'm sure it was happening already. You know, there was madness and all those other groups that were sort of ska tinged at the time. Yeah, The first of came out the same year as mine. I think Madness and the specials, I think the special the same year. Yeah. yeah, yeah, yeah But in terms of in terms of u I guess going back to popular music, I felt like the police were sort of like the ones that sort of I broke it that out of being local to whatever was happening in the UK and made it feel worldwide, made it feel global, at least transcontinental But it must have been like, you know, obviously, if you recorded your first album before that came out, that was a thing that was Bwing, right? That sort of sky new wave Yeah, man. I mean, I think like anyone else I was influenced by what was going on around me. and I was in a certain place at a certain time. and I was know twenty three years old Even though I wanted to think that I was just being original and I wasn't part of a movement or any of that sort of stuff, you know, I think yeah, I was very influenced by everything that was going on around me. If I listen to my first album now, not that I do, to be honest, but it just really sounds like London in nineteen seventy eight. You know, it's very much of its time and place. Wow. And I think you can't avoid that. But that wasn't the intention. You did want to be No I mean apart from a Yeah, I felt like this is my thing and I don't want to be compared to anyone else and You know, and I would do interviews in Spain or somewhere and they'd say, so are you part of the new wave? I'd say, what are you talking about? I don't even know what you're talking about. You know. That term was particularly triggering for a lot of artists, I think,. I mean it's just you know, you don't wantan to feel like you're just part of a cults, know ideology or something You know, we all want to feel like we're brilliant originals. What was playing live like at that time? wasas who would you have been playing with at that time pre getting ins sign, pre your album. Were you playing out playaying live and working out those songs or Well, yeah, only a couple of pub gigs didn't have a regular band until I got the record deal because I couldn't afford to pay them, you know Yeah So this was basically the band that I made my demos with, you know I called them up and said, Hey, do you want to quit whatever your job is and go on the road and we can just about afford to pay you a living wage? So before that I was just doing any kind of gig I could get And not with your not with the band not withbe doing all kinds of stuff, you know, like I played in a playboy club And I played for a cabaret duo called Coffee and Cream were I really cheesy, I did that for six months to save up money, you know, that's how I saved up money to make the demos became my first album. Wait, were you in coffee and cream? I was the piano player Don't shoot me, I'm only a piano player. Yeah. wasn't my choice. N b I would do anything. you know, Before that I was in top forty cover bands and playing weddings and playing in restaurants and playing jazz gigs, just I mean, it's really weird to think back to when I made my first album, I was only twenty three and I felt like a veteran that point.. I mean, I did my first paying gig when I was sixteen, you know, so I was doing all kinds of gigs And it felt like sort of culmination of this long Journey. making an albo. I was twenty three. sixteen to twenty threees it's substantial. Well again, when you're the age, it really is substantial. Yeah. super substantial. What was your like what was your so if you werere playing popular Music at the time what was your repertoire pre? Yeah, Well, you know, whatever was in the charts and just depending what kind of band it was. Do you remember certain songs that you loathe to Have this over Yeah I wasn't crazy about the Neil Diamond Medley we did with coffee and cream But you know, I don't think it's a bad thing to use the skills. you have to make money No And also it's all experience whatever you do. And I think it's a good groundwork. I think people don't have it so much anymore, but you know when you've gone on stage and had glasses thrown at you by an audience of skinheads and things like that, you know it does kind of toughen you up a bit, prepare you for the long haul And Yeah. Thomas said to me, it sounds like they' scene in the Blues Brothers where they have to have chickenwire in front of the bed. and they said, We long for Chickenwire. If only, there would have been an improvement. Yeah What records were we listening to then, forative yearss, that sixteen to to twenty three making the first album What were you ingesting Okay, let me think David Bowie Stevie Wonder Joni Mitchell, Steey Dan Wow. Little feet And I mean for a while, when I was like sixteen, seventeen, I was into Progue rock and I liked Soft machine was a favorite band. And anythingything kind of jazzy I liked as well. King Crimson and people like that, a lot of that stuff I don't really like now to be honest And reggae music, Bob Marley, you know in the late seventies that became that was huge in England at the time. all that music. so I got really into that. Was it like Clapton doing it that got it huge out there or was it legitimate before was it all re? It was huge Yeah B Marley really broke broke through and There was that Bob Marley live album, which is a great live album. I think, that was a big hit. Suddenly it was all over the radio and it was just huge. And then everyone was you know, every record company was signing regai artists all of a sudden. Yeah. And did you notice other people Were you aware of of the other like the madness and all those other sky bands that were sort of Yeah, Propping up around. Yeah, yeah Yeah, I remember going to see one of the specialist's first gigs in a pub in London was fantastic. It was packed. rememember saying to my friend who wasese guys are going to be huge, Ed D know which they were, you know. But madness of the band that have really had longevity. and I think they're underrated actually. I mean, they're very, very popular in England, especially I think you know, theres there's a real depth of songwriting and musicianship there se in some of their latest stuff. Yeah. ye. I'm a fan. There isn't your first few records too, and I feel like you maybe I think I read that on your first few records you sort of embarrassed to the songs to a certain degree of what now now Is that Yeah. I mean some of those songs are pretty silly and pretty immature, I think, but that's you know, of course that's what you get when you're twenty three. it's Some of the songs I still like can still play kind of cliche sort of Right just I mean, I became over the years as a writer, much more particular about what I put out and Much more critical of myself. It used to be like, I've got an idea, sort of knock it into some sort of shape, record it, and that was it. You know didnn't really think about it much. there's a good side to that as well. But if you're going to keep going for decades, which I somehow managed to do, that sort wasn't good enough for me in a way. I mean nowadays, I'm my own worst critic If I start working on something that starts to remind me of something I've heard before You know, whether it's someone else's or mine, then it's like no scrap it start again or twist it in some way. I read somewhere that when Bruce Springsteeen released a born in the USA album that he had sixty songs and it was a really difficult job to narrow it down to whatever it is ten or whatever, twelve on the album.. I thought my God, I can imagine being in that situation, having that many songs and finding it that hard to I mean, my latest album has the nine songs. That's it. But it sounds like there could have been many but there was a lot of other like, you know going down streets that turned out to be cul deacs, you know, along the way. Yeah. So a half wreckage of half finished songs by the roadside along the way. Do you ever revive a bad idea in the end? Do you ever feel like you okay, maybe I've thrown that way too soon coming back to it and it ends up actually working out. Yeah. Yeah and the opposite. you know, something I'm really excited about. o, this is a great song and you know, I sort of live with it for a while and I think now. And I might actually, I mean, I've done things like scrap the whole lyric of a song. and just put it aside and then get an idea and start again with a different lyric. And finally it's a song. I mean, there's no real sort of pattern to any of it, actually. How hard is that? Becauseuse I mean you even if it's a bad lyric, you must at some point on some level Muscle memory even just the muscle memory level get set on the lyric, even if it's bad, you know? Yeah But there'll be something about it that, you know, over time, I figure out what it is that's bothering me. And why it's not good enough. You know, it's very hard to explain because it's not scientific,'s not you know it's not an exact science. it's very much I mean, I've been asked do you write from the head or from the heart and it's neither. It's something else and it's something like intuition. Yeah It's intuitive. So it's like a question of taste as well You know, so you can only rely on your own taste and your own intuition because you're the artist. That's what you're supposed to do. Yeah Yeah. And you feel like you must feel then like your taste has evolved quite a bit from Yeah, I mean, it does get harder to to be as prolific as I was, for instance, back in the eighties where I seem to be constantly recording new albums and touring. And from my point of view now, the quality of it is uneven. You know, I've made at least three albums too many, I think. Which ones would not make the cut if you are now deciding You know why I don't want to say because Sometimes someone will say to me, Oh, this album of yours is my bl. It's my favorite album. I love it. What am I going say you? No, you're wrong? You know, If someone likes it, then great But just for me because I'm entitled to an opinion about it too. Yeah, right? And some of the alms are better than others. just for my own taste. but I don't want to spoil anyone else's enjoyment of any of it. What about u Musically, like stepping out once you once you get to there, you really you're really stretching out musically. Yeah that album, in general, ye. Yeah. Yeah, it was just sort of it was really kind of starting a new chapter where I feel like I was being more myself and not so much influenced by what was going on around me at the time. and u And like I said, it was bringing in a lot of those influences, which I thought were more New York inflences of jazz and Latin music rather than rock and roll. And and even leaving out the guitars. I still meet people who say there were no guitars on night and day, really. And I say, well, did you hear any? that no one seem to notice, which is funny. This idea of it's just it's all keyboards and percussion. And like I said, I didn't think anyone was going to like it. I thought it would be a really hard sell And I was gonna do it anyway. We definitely stretching out musically because I was capable of that, you know, I mean on the first couple of albums it was a case of deliberately simplifying it, which a lot of people were doing at the time. You know, it felt like the thing to do at the time. Even if you were you could be a very good musician, but you'd play really simple deliberately, you know, I mean, my band was a pretty damn good band, you know but it was just keep it really, really simple And I just stopped even thinking about that so That was that likely a reaction to the Prague Ra that was popular and all that sort of being tired of it, people being sort of probably tired of the fps of the world Oh yeah, going back Yeah to the beginnings of punk and all that. Yeah, it was ye. And at the time I thought it was all great fun. I didn't take it seriously at all. It just punk bands just made me laugh So I thought it was great. Really. I once had a beer with Joe Strummer from the Cash, who was a great guy. and we talked about how critics especially lacking they lack the humor of Jene you know, he was saying how that when they were writing songs for the cllashim and Mc Jones, they would be cracking each other up because they were, as we say in England, taking the piss, you know, mocking and making fun of And then the reviews would come out excorgating social political anger and protest and all this. and they'd be laughing even more. I was like, yes, exactly. I felt exactly the same way. It was amazing how seriously it was all taken Yeah, and people critics thought you were taking yourself seriously a lot often, right? Likeight,. Well, they have no sense of humor. It's been my observation over the years. Yeah It's the one thing that they miss consistently, is you know, they take everything at face value and take it very seriously It's funny. Would you read reviews then or no? Back then I would yeah, nowadays I don't I avoid them. Yeah, ye ye. because that can just drive me crazy. Yeah. if you pay too much attention to any of that stuff, you'd end up not being able to create anything. Yeah We'll be back with more from Joe Jackson Embrace the haaze with hazy Little thing from Sierra, Nevada If you saw the headliner when they played at the bar or stopped your friends mid festival to look at the stars, if you're up for whatever the night brings, then embrace the haze with hazy little things Hazy, citrusy, smooth Juicy but not sweet, Hoppy, but not bitter. Bursting with fruit flavor in a rome There's a reason it's America's best selling hazy IPA Sere in Nevada Brews Hze a little thing with the purest ingredients for finest quality in ever since Vvelvety smooth and handcrafted with Citra and Mosaic hops Because when you're living in the moments that matter, it matters which beer Ebrace the haaze with haazy Little thing by Sierra Nevada enjoy responsible. I just got back from an amazing family vacation in Northern California It was the perfect reset for our busy lives Now if you're planning any upcoming trips, you could be listing your space on Airbnb It's a smart practical way to make use of your place while you're away and earn some extra cash at the same time. And with the cohost network, you could hire a local cohost to handle everything like managing reservations, guest communication, and even styling your space. Find a co host at airbnb. com slash host Possibility means you have a chance. Passion opens the door to all possibilities. When I feel like anything's possible, I feel kind of giddy. I want to be an astronaut, artish an actress to visit another country. All I need is a backpack and a pair of shoes and I'll find a way. I'm able to do anything I set my mind to I've never felt like more things are possible than right now In the right shoes, anything' possible. DSW, countless shoes at bragworthy prices. Imagine the possibility. I always found it funny like, you know, critics, just the, um as if New wave wasn't enough a term. like then critics moved on to some point you know, like sophhistop pop. you know, Okay Sohistop pop like Sritty Pully and you Okay and who else would fit in I think they threw in, um Who' the band that made thateve Steve McQueen was the Prefab spprout P prefab S sprout Yeah. Yeah, and they were great. I mean, prefab S sprout That great. That alm was amazing. But then you know, they's called it Sophhistop P, Soophistop Park say how terrible. you know Its like it. It's a terrible name. Yeah, of course it is I guess I should bring up at this point that Sony Rollins just died. Yes.as he ninety six I something? It was ninety five, ninety six. Yeah. Yeah.'t played for quite a qu a while Yeah. He was still playing at AC still touring. Yeah. I saw him Again, going back to the days when I was first living in New York in the eighties I saw Sony Ryllins perform a couple of times And I was absolutely blown away He had to be insane back then or you know, I mean, one of the shows that I saw he did was one of the most powerful performances I've ever seen, you know by But a jazz musician, certainly My hair was standing on an end you He was really special. Wow What would do you know where was it? Do you remember?? Yeah, it was the bottom line, which is was a great venue was long gone, unfortunately. Yeah. Is that was that because I know you also You inspired for body and soul by his volume. Yeah, that wasn't. It was just you know, we're trying to think of a cover concepts and we thought we'd try something with that classic blue note look as sort of a homage to that, which other people have done since then. Maybe they had done before then, but if so I wasn't aware of it. But it was more' just a look of it, you know it wasn't just the fact that I was a fan of Sunny Rise Yeah. It's still an amazing album cover Yeah, I like it. A few years later, Rolling Stone published a little thing with they put the Sonny Rollins album in mine side by side They busted me You know, apparently I ripped it off and now now revealing to the world this terrible rip off that I did. Me play something from the new album. Any particular song you like off them Do you have a favorite? No. I would never, even if I did, I wouldn't tell you But now I'm always reluctant to pick favorites. I feel like that's not my job, you know, but if I didn't really like every track, I wouldn't put it out. That's the way I feel about it. Yeah Yeah playay this I made God laugh is a Everything is still the same Smans you never know what's coming next. The stroke of luck, the stroke of ten, the fickle flash of fame. So now down't, but that's not good. So listen to what the wise man said This if you see where you could be wrong You make up the whenorial advance Come on, you know it's true. Did you make God not when you made your demands? Mll fool you I love it's a great song and you sound great on it. It's also a great performance by your bass player by Gramy. yeah, well, he's always great. Grammy. I mean like sounds amazing on it I want to ask you about him, but yeah, when did what was the genesis of that song It was a quote that I read somewhere and I can't remember who it was, but they said, if you want to make the gods laugh, tell them your plans And I thought that was really interesting the more I thought about it I or I thought it was a happy thought. Because you we all need to figure out that we can't control everything. and the sooner you realize that, the better because it makes life less stressful and generally nicer if you can do that. It's funny because ye there's been a couple of people interpret it as a sad song and I don't think it is at all But that was the origin of it. Actually after I hadd written the song And by the way, no song is all about the lyrics. It's just that that's what we all end up talking about, you know. But Having written a song, I decided to try and find out where I'd heard this quote. and T turnurns out Woody Allen said something very similar, but that he got it from an old Yiddish proverb. which I'm not going to try to say in Yiddish, but it goes, manan plans and God laughs, you know, so it's been around for a while, this idea Are you always aware of the sort of the meta text of a set of lyrics that you write O Meta text? H. Do I meta text I'm not sure. U There's always layers to it I find it very difficult to I mean, I don't write I don't want to write songs that are didactic telling you what to think. this is that what it is. And And like I said, songs are seventy percent music anyway. Yeah, I think, you know, for me anyway. I mean, I think there's a tradition of songwriting that's different that it's more about storytelling, it's more about lyrics. It's more of a folk tradition. That's not really what I do. And I think for the most part it's the music that really moves people and the words kind of tag along afterwards and sometimes they're you know, worth thinking about, I mean, I certainly try to write the best lyrics I can. But it's I'm really primarily a music guy Yeah. I think people listen for different things. Some people are lyric people. someome people are. I tend not to be I don't either. I kind of take in the whole thing you know Yeah And if the lyrics are particularly interesting, they'll draw me in Yeah at some point. And bad lyrics can probably ruin out an otherwise good song. don't? No, undercry This is one of the reasons I think music is more important than lyrics because there's a lot of songs that I really like that if I really think about the lyrics, they're pretty stupid. and they don't make sense or anything. Not to mention the fact that there's a lot of music I really love where the words are in a language that I have no idea about. Well, That's often why I like music another way. sometimes a good It removes any sort of critical. Yeah, I mean your lyrics might be terrible. I might be listening to some music from Serbia, you know, it was the worst lyrics ever. I would never know. I'm just enjoying it. Yeah. And sometimes like, you know, the cla like j like Joe and then would sing in, you know, like such an accented in such aic. Sometimes hard for make out every other word That's the thing I could never understand about Shane McGowan because he wrote great lyrics And when he's sayang, he couldn't understand a word. Yeah It amazing I know. I know. I didn't know he was even revered as a songwiter until he passed away and then all of a sudden it became was a really talented songwriter. It was like revered like you know. But it was I mean, I envied him in a way because I saw the Pog's live once and I think he sang on about three songs And he would say Thank you very much. And everyveryone would cheers like, ye, good old drunk shambolic shame not making any sense. We love it, you know I thought, Oh, that's a good gig Did you ever, Did you ever get to know him or no? No Did didid you ever get to know many peers or like as in terms of beyond, you know, you mentioned having a peer. I've met quite a few people Andy Partridge is a a bit of a friend of XTC, someone that I think have a lot in common with. Yeah. someomeone no one ever compares me to. Musically very different. No, I think we have a lot in common. Really? Yeah. Okay yeah And yeah, Joge Trumer was a great guy. was really sad when he died. I can't believe he's Act not with us still. Yeah But I can't say, you know, it I don't hang out with a whole bunch of my peers. I'm not friends of these people I mean, I don't mean that in a dismissive way, it's just not the way it's turned out. What do you find yourself listening to primarily these days? All kinds of stuff I really all over the map. A lot of jazz, a lot of Latin music still, listening to a lot of music from Colombia, which' some really interesting music coming out of Colombia I got into early jazz recent years, so listening to people like Earl Heines, Sydney Beeschet, Jay Rollmorton, late twenties, early thirties jazz I really love. and late fifties, early sixties jazz are the two eras that I really love. I mean, I don't hear a lot of interesting stuff in the pop rock, the Anglo American pop rock world. Yeah. I don't think it's that great. I mean, there's some things r outside of the Anglo American sphere, you know Yeah. some interesting music from I mean like Stromai from Belgium, I think it was really cool. Wow. Yeah. you know There's a band from Berlin called Zeed, I really like. You know, Rosalia from Spain is really interesting. So there's some you know original things break through here and there I don't know was the band the band was Z. Is that? Sorry. What was the band from Berlin? you said? Zeid. Okay, I don't know Zed. but the other two Stromine and Rose Lee, I mean, they're really I don't want to say avant Garde, but they do things outside of what right their contemporaries necessarily are interested in. The sort of vocabulary, as musicians seems extra, you know, extraordinary, perhaps. That must would driage you to that, right? Yeah imagine. Yeah It feels very different. Right. It's not just something that you can easily put a label on you know, file it on it's it's this and it's for these people and I that's the more interesting area, but it's like harder to pin it down. Yeah In just a minute, we'll be back with more from Joe Jackson Embrace the haaze with hazy littleittle thing from Sierra Nevada If you saw the headliner when they played at the bar or stopped your friends mid festival to look at the stars, if you're up for whatever the night brings, then embrace the haze with hazy little things Hazy, citrusy, smooth Juicy but not sweet, Hopy but not bitter Bursting with fruit flavor in aome There's a reason it's America's best selling hazy IPA Sere in Nevada Brews haze a little thing with the purest ingredients for finest quality in ever since Vvelvety smooth and handcrafted with Citra and Mosaic hops Be when you're living in the moments that matter, it matters which beer. Ebrace the Haze with Hazey Little Thing by Sierra Nevada enjoy responsibly. 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Fastest according to UClA Speed test based on SpeedTests intelligence data secondcond half twenty twenty five All rights reserved It's funny that early on There was a sort of keep it simple philosophy. Yeah. You eventually ditch it and then it really is like so it feels like, you know, in a weird way P that's probably what you heard in Prag rock when you were young that you enjoyed, even though you don't like it now, the presentation of it maybe, but ye, well, this goes back to when I was fifteen or something like this because I had a classical training. know So I learned to read music when I was eleven and it's no big deal, you know So I think that I kind of Maybe there was a couple of years ago where I turned my nose up at pop music, but then I started to get interested again. and the things that interested me were the things that I thought were musically more sophisticated. But then after a while, there were things like people like David Bowie, you know that would have brought me back more towards pop music Because it blended a bit of the sophistication of Yeah, and I also started to think, well, you know, I don't want to be stuck up about anything. I mean, all kinds of music can have something good about them. So I think that's been my attitude ever since. Yeah. Do you keep up with your sort of classical training? Is that Is a muscle that you've continued to I think it's just kind of part of the arsenal of something just in there So you practice a lotder. I play quite a lot, so I guess it's all practising in a way. Yeahah Yeah. I mean, I don't practice scales and stuff like that for hours like I did when I was a teenager. Yeah And what will you pick up like a piece you haven't played and just try to get through it occasionally, yeah. When's the last time you did that. So that's kind of cool. Well not recently to be honest. I mean, technically I was pretty much better at eighteen than I am now. Yeah. Um In terms of being able to improvise and be creative at the keyboard, I was not very good then. I think I'm still getting better at that. So you were early on, you weren't good at improvising I I mean, I tried, you know, but I think I've gotten better I think I'm still learning. I think my playing's still getting better. Yeah it must have been great then being around guys like Her Balft and Jerry Moss. and I guess uincy Jones would have been at AM at that time Or at least I mean, I wasn't hanging out with these people, but I mean, I was aware that I was with a fairly cool record label, you know, and other acts that I liked. I li Squeeze quite a lot And some of the things that were really interesting, I picked up on A andM like they had yellow Magic Orchestra from Japan.. I remember picking up a couple of their records from the A andM offices and really enjoyed them. I don't know they're on AM,'s an insane bit. Yeah How did you find you guys How did you find your band Well, they were local guys. The bass pare and the drummer, Graham Mabbe and Dave Hton were local guys that I mean, Graham I met when I was eighteen or something. So we were playing in different kinds of bands together. and Dave Hon was playing with, you know, other people I knew and so we all grew up in the same area around Portsmouth and the south coast of England But by the time I made my first album, I was living in London, and Gary, the guitarist was a London who was someone that I met then So yeah, it was just a kind of pretty organic kind of thing. It's pretty wild that those guys were just around and not I mean, because they're Re great players. Yeah. didid they have am didid they have their own things going on What were their What were they at when you kind of f? wereere they were they what were their ambitition? Just I don't know actuallyually you'd have to ask them, I suppose just doing gigs, whatever gigs they could get and doing part time jobs and scraping by And how do you typically work with them? mean D Dave come Dave's still around often, right? Not always, but I mean well he hasn't wanted to tour for quite a long time. Yeah, he's kind of was I mean, the reason I broke up my first band was because he didn't want a tour anymore. Isas that what happen? Yeah. And rather than just replace him and carry on, I thought, well, maybe it's time for a break. Yeah, take some time off and rethink. But he came back on board later and we did a couple more albums and tours together and then he kind of dropped out again.' sort of procession of drummers, some great ones actually So Doug Yole, who I'm working with now have been working together for about ten years. How does it work when you bring something to your band? How do you work with them? How do you work withll make a demo of some sort and say listen to this and kind of get familiar with it, leararn the chord changes, learn the parts In some cases, there'll be things that that really suit them and sound great. but other times it doesn't really work and we have to negotiate. So it's kind of like, well, that doesn't seem to work for you. What can you do that's along the same lines? And so it becomes collaborative to a certain extent. But I have the final say because someone has to And should be the guy whose nameam's on the record. Yeah. So people would asked me is you' band of democracy and it's not as a dictatorship actually. but it's what they call a benign dictatorship where the dictator's not a bad guy. It's a benign dictator. Sir, can we please change this Can I change this part? it's not suiting I mean, so you you have the demo. It's pretty fleshed out. Yeah and they mostly learn it you presented it. But there's always some things that change along the way. And I quite enjoy that process because I do want people to feel like they're involved in it and they're not just, you know, like session guys or something. Yeah. ye yeah yeah. I'm very particular about picking the people who I like their personality both as people and as players. Yeah you know, and trying to find ways to especially in live situation. I was trying to find ways to make everyone in the band shine. you know, give give each player share of the spotlight. Yeah. That's one of the really fun things about playing live, I think. Yeah. The base parts, those they're not that flhed out, are they or are they just flhed out? Some of them here. Some of them are. Yeah. Wow. Some of them are there' yeah, there's this basasseline' part of the song as I conceived it, you know, so So I, you know, some of the bas lines are what I've written S some of them are Graham doing something along the lines that I ask him to do because I know him well enough that he's generally going to come up with something I like. Yeah. if I don't like it, I'll tell him that that's my prerogative. Yes, it's hard to explain because the question comes up quite a lot. know, how much say do the musicians have in the creation of their own parts? and it's not like black and white. It's kind of somewhere in the middle. Yeah How much does the song come to you when fully formed? How much do you kind of hear the full thing? A lot of the time, Yeah Yeah, I don't know why, but I don't think in terms of Well I have this few chords and what do I do now? know I tend to sort of hear whole whole kind of sound world in my head, if you like How hard to describe without sounding a bit kind of pretentious? Let's play maybe I'm not sorry. You should It agreeable whatever you like. Okay So I might as well have I say for every damn whale that I failed to save Every little flat I didn't chase. everyvery little fool just didn't like my face Sorry. I'm not sorry at all sorry, I'm not sorry at all supp law that I broke, saying what I thought Yeah a dud who had the nerve to observe an atam attitude. I feel see f and choose to fly on the crocodilees I refuse to cry. So on the. No, it's funny because I haven't actually listened to that for a while and And because we've been we're what is it? twwelve shows into our tour now and we're playing this song live and it sounds different How's it changed? Well, things just sound different, you know. Yeahes, it's funny Yeah, I'mar it now and I think, well, the bass sounds different, the drum sounds different. The balance between the guitar and the keyboard sounds different. in a way that's as. we're not we're not really changed the song, you know, but Yeah, it's funny That's hard to explain. It just takes on a different life in life, I think. Does it feel good to hear it the original way? Yeah, I think that's pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. But I think we're doing some little different things to it now. Yeah Yeah, interestnteresting. Is that kind of is that worth investigating for you ever that why the way a song changes live? U I don't know, it just sort of evolves. I mean one thing I do find is that veryery often thingsings get better as the tour goes on and you think, o, I wish we could recall the album now. And I actually did that once on an arm called Fool for a few years ago. That's what we actually did. fininally, we did a one month tour where we played all the new songs And then the idea was wherever we finished up, assuming it was somewhere where there was a studio You know, the day after the last show, we would go in the studio and reccall the alm it turned out to be Boise, Idaho. whichich I loveved because everyone was saying, what the hell are you doing recording it out in there? It's actually not a bad place U we did the arm in a week. Wow You know I did some of the vocals later in New York and mixed in New York, but But that was great, but it's so logistically so hard to do that. So this alum was quite different because we actually I did some demos for it that turned out really well and we ended up using a lot of the demo tracks on it, including some of the lead vocals, which I didn't expect. You know I thought I was going to have to do them all over again. but I was listening to them thinking, wait a minute I don't know how I'd do this any better, so we might as well keep it. so it saves some time. I don't like to spend a lot of time in the studio anyway. Always or just because generally No I don't. So some of the lead vocals on there are from Yeah, the demo vocals. That's amazing. I mean, but you know, I couldn't figure out way you do them any better That's great though. sometim a lot of times I hear, you know, people down the line put out a demo of a song. and You here and' be like, wow, the dev is actually better than the, you know, but I think it's maybe hard to believe that for some Yeah That's right, you know But it's very interesting of what happens sometimes if you If you don't have much time, And you've got to just get it done ye and not be too fussy. and you're telling yourself, well it's only a demo anyway. And I guess that in that process you kindind of relaxed in a way, but A the same time, you're not you're not wasting any time. so you kind of Whether you realize it or not, you're actually zeroing in on what's important. Yeah, whichich you can lose sight of if you've beennd too long in the studio, which a lot of people do. U So I think it's quite an interesting lesson in there somewhere. Yeah That song I'm not sorry. It's musically pretty cool. Yeah Did it. It's cool because's because there's an aggressiveness to it, but then there's, you know, the sort of like Latin harmonic thing going on. and usually those two things aren't Yeah are't melded together. Well that's even in your music, those things because there's songs that are yours that feel acerbic and have like a more of that kind of aggressive feel. and then there's songs that of course have had latin grooves. But it feels rare that those two things kind of converge. Okay, you know. that's an interesting angle Um I think maybe because it's actually quite humorous. You know, I mean, it strikes some people as being angry, but it's really more more humorous There's a bit of a kind of you know defiant attitude in it. I mean it's very defiant attude. And it's a bit of a kind of anti cancel culture sort of idea. Yeah you know and I quite like the idea of just saying, you know what, I'm not sorry. whatever it is, if you've had some problem with me, I'm not sorry. Yeah. And there's a line in the song that goes don't apologize to someone who just wants to make you their bitch. You know it's like the last thing you should do is apologize. So that that's that's the message, but it's I think done in a rather humorous way rather than an angry way. There's one song on the album I'm I'm not going to say it's my favorite, but I'm particularly proud of in certain ways. It's called E of the Pier And the idea that I had for the song I got to a point where I thought it's over ambitious. I don't think I could pull this off. And I more or less , I might be exaggerating a bit, but like shut myself in a room for a week and you know with a rhyming dictionary and a thesaurus and just worked on it and reworked it and reworked it until I thought, wait a minute, yeah, it works. I did pull it off. Wow So You know, if you want to know if you haven't asked but if you want to know who my favorite lyricists are, there' people like Igreswin Um Johnny Mercer, Lawurece Hart, Cole Porter you know, all those guys just just the The the brilliance of the word play. and I just love that, you know and the wit I love. So I like the idea of being a craftsman when it comes to, you know, crafting the words of the song, even though I'm saying they're not as important as the music. Ultimately, I don't think they are. It's the music that still is what moves you, I think. Well, it's interesting though but those guys, like Johnny Mercer and they are, you know, there's a lot of clever wordplay but they're fairly earnest songwriters, you know Yeah, but they also can be very witty and ye You know, very funny, which I think is really lacking in a a lot of songwriting. Yeah. Could we talk about the Duke Ellington album that you did? Yeah. ye. What made you what brou That was about it was twenty twelve, I think. Yes, I think it was. You did a Duke album. Yeah. And it's pretty cool. Yeah, I'm really proud of it. and it' actually is a Joe Jackson album You know I mean, I I did the arrangements, I was the producer. I did the keyboard playing and programming. I did some of the vocals The only thing I didn't do was write the original source material. Yeah, you know Yeah. So was do I had for a long time because I'm a huge fan of Ellington. and he one of the reasons he's inspiring to me is because of the way that he constantly reworked his own material, did different versions of his own songs, which I've always done. It's one of the things that keeps things interesting you know, touring after so many years. Even classic to take the A train. it's like there's Yeah there's many versions Yeah many versions of everything. Yeah. For a long time, I'd had ideas about what you could do this Ellington tumor this kind of forisment whatever and I can't remember at what point I said, you know, I want to try and do a whole project of this And Then I started to make some rules for myself because one of the things you have to do to create anything is to set limits You can't be limitless, it doesn't work So what are my rules with no horns? because I mean, I want to pay tribute to Ellington not compete with accent, right? So there's no horns. And none of the songs have a traditional swing rhythm. know so they're all different grooves and different kinds of sounds. was that a struggle to explain into the rhythm session that you're gonna play some new tunes? No not singing? No. Which is crazy to say, Yeah yeah ye But But that was the whole idea. and sometimes if you give yourself the guidelines that's actually inspiring. It's not limiting. know it opens up possibilities and it know seems contradictory, but it doesn't close down possibilities. Yeah. And so I found myself thinking, well what other directions could we take this I mean, Karavan, for instance, is sung by Susan Diahim, who's a singer from Iran. And She did the translation of the lyrics into Farsi So you know, I thought that was such a cool idea. I mean, no one had done that, but it seems to me in a way an obvious thing to do. And again, Perdido had this idea of it having a kind of Brazilian groove. and there was a band from Holland who I really liked called Zuo one hundred three with a Brazilian singer, Lillam Vera who also did the translation into Portuguese of the lyrics, you know so I was like, let's just try just doing all kinds of different things with Ellington that hadn't been done before. And different kinds of grooves using electric guitar and electric violin and just getting away from the horns and I think it turned out great. and I'm very, very proud of the album actually. Yeah. I'm sure a lot of people didn't quite know what to make of it, but there you go. I think that's fine.. It kind of reminded. there was like Mingus at some point put out an album where he he did like a lot of his sort of more well known tunes, but there was like, you know, with a band that was o, not really fit, not not fit, but not you would think, you know was like There was like a I think it was in the mid seventies and there was like a bit of a shredder of a guitar player doing like pork you know pork pat and things and it's like kind of don know that. Yeah, it was kind of kind of like defamed the songs, but in I'm sure you know, critically the fame to the songs, but it's kind of interesting, you know, and it lets you hear jazz in this kind of interesting modern context. And putting Caravan back in L into like a Middle Eastern sort of context is instinct too because that's obviously the inspiration for the melody and things hasas it driven you crazy that I mean, I feel like for a lot of years, a lot of decades. You've been ducking into jazz. Yeah. and making like really great records based around jaz tunes or jazz arrangements. and it doesn't stick in the sense of when people think Joe Jackson, they don't necessily think jazz. they think No, we'm not a Jazbes issue I'm a jazz fan and I can fake it a bit. I can play decent jazz piano, but I'm not going to you know go up against the people who devote their whole lives to playing jazz piano, you know what I mean? B So yeah, I'm a jazz fan and I like bringing in different influences and seeing what you can fit with what other you know, which pieces of the jigsaw you can fit to which other pieces. Yeah. I mean, I think that's kind of what I do, you know. I don't I can't really stayed in a very specific genre And it's not a decision, you know, it's just the way it comes out. So the way it comes out comes from who you are and You know, so I'm just someone who's had very, very broad musical experience and interest and So what interests me is finding ways to put these different things together in a way that works That's yeah, I mean, that probably sums it up as good as anything. It feels like feels like a good summation of most of your work, you know. Yeah, I mean,s it's kind of like being a collagist rather than a portrait painter or a landscape p painter or something like that maybe. Yeah. So your twelve dates and do eighty tour roughly twve days and eighty date tour? I think if yeah, if you put the North American tour and European tour together it's about eighty shows. Yeah, I think we're about twelve shows in.. Do that feel daunting? If I thought about it, it probably would. I'll try not to think about it. I mean, it sounds cheesy, but on the road it's just you have to just concentrate on today But just think about today. I don't think about the gigs we already did or what we're doing tomorrow just really concentrate on today and it's going great and it's we're at the That kind of magic point of the tour, where we got over some of the initial nerves and glitches and so on and we're really enjoying it. it's just getting better. That's amazing.. What makes a good show for you? do you feel like is it how do you what makes a good show for you versus a bad show? Well, I think it goes without saying It would be a show where I feel like I performed well and the band performed well and we didn't screw everything up. But beyond that, it's just something you can't define. It's magic. It really is magic. It's something that happens between between the band and the audience and everyone. And some nights it's just It's magic. I can't explain it any better than that and that's why it's great, you know. Do do you have to think about the audience in terms of setlist? or you do? Oh yeah yeah I try to be as objective as I possibly can. how will this come across you know to someone sitting in you know the twentieth row, whatever. Yeah I'm always thinking like that. That's amazing. I'm excited to come out tomorrow, tomorrow, I believe right? Yeah. tomorrow. This see you guys. Great Yeah, it should be good. It's a good venue. I've played a couple of times before. so yeah it should be good. I'm excited, man. Quite a different attitude on I'm not sorry than on Battleground Oh, o God. yeah. Well that's one of those songs I'd rather forget yeah. Was it Ernest at the time? or was it was Enest at the time? I Yeah I guess it was, but was that was well you dragged it out of me now That's one of the albums that I don't think is one of my best was Beat Crazy because the first two albums are basically the same album, you know, really Yeah. The Beat Crazy was kind of like' trying to mix it up and do something a bit different, but without really quite knowing where it was going. so it's a bit of a confused album, I think. It's got some interesting ideas on it, some good bits, but I don't think it worked very well. I think that was probably another reason why when Dave, the drummer wanted to leave, that I decided to kind of just break out the band and rethink rather than just kind of carry on. You realized it wasn't gonna that was broken, it wasn't gonna get better in that form. Yeah, at least at that point. I mean, we got back together again twenty years later or whatever it was to do the album, which was actually the best album we made as a band, I think