Tensions and Leaving Death Row

Pushkin One of the most important artists of my life is Tupac Shakor One of the earliest memories I have, in fact, of watching music on TV is seeing Tupx recor on SNL and then Biggie, not that much later But since Tupac died in Las Vegas, there's been all kinds of conspiracies surrounding his life and death and his legacy has been picked over in ways that feel kind of demeaning to his music and to who he was as a person So I've always avoided any interviews that have anything to do with TPC. That is, of course until Mo Prim Shakor, Tupac's half brother, put out his new book. this stug's life Mo Preenham himself is a rapper, filmmaker and record producer, living at the intersection of revolutionary politics and hip hop He's also one of the only surviving members of Tupac's group oututlaw Mortals and the only surviving member of Tupac's other group, Doug Life He was raised along with Tupac in the tradition of Black liberation activism and shaped by the Streets of Queens and also the stages of the world, not just with his brother, but with his own groups, and also believe it or not, with Oakland's own Tony Tony Tony M Prem is one of the only people we can go to get the truth about P And for the first time, Mo Prem is telling his story It's the first ever insider account of the Jakor family book about Brotherhood, survival, movement building f course the making of Tupox legend. This is Broken Record. Real Musicians Real Conversations This is an iHart podcast Guaranteed human Small businesses are the pulse of every community. They bring people together, create opportunities, and drive growth Chase for Business helps business owners like you with personalized guidance and convenient digital tools all in one place With that guidance and your determination, you can take your business farther and help build a brighter future for your community Learn more at chase d. com slash business. Chase for businessus. Make more of what's yours. The Chase mobile app is available for select mobile devices. Message and data rates may apply JP Morgan Chase Bank and a member FDIC Copyright twenty twenty six, JP Morgan Chase and Company My kid's favorite place in the entire world to visit is New York City. so much so that they're begging me to come on my work trip I'm taking there in the next few weeks. And this time they want to go to Central Park because we missed it last time. If you're planning any upcoming trips, instead of letting your home sit empty while you're gone, you could be listing your space on Airbnb, giving travelers, like me, a place to land while they visit somewhere new It's a smart, practical way to make use of your place while you're away and earn some extra cash at the same time And now with the cohost network, you could hire a local co host to handle everything like managing reservations, guest communication, and even styling your space. Find a cohost at airbnb dot com slash host The future won't wait. And neither should you. That's why American Public University offers master's programs designed for momentum Affordable High quality and flexible So you keep moving forward With career relevant programs in business, healthcare, education, IT, and more You can gain skills You can use right away and the confidence power your next move American Public University madeade for what's next. Learn more at apu. a U EDU. Here's my interview with MopPrem Shakor Uh There's so much to say. So we gott to come over for dinner. We man please please, man. more than happy if you guys are ever in Long Beach, man. are you in E come through. We right up here. We're in Hollywood Hills H happy to come through any timee, man.. I have a lot of love, a lot of love for Pock, you know, have a lot of love for your family. Appreciate you. A lot of love for the Panther struggle the struggle for Black liiberation. Absolutely.. And so just the fact that You know, these are all the things that you come from. I mean, it's just going through your book. I mean, I guess we could start at the end here. Please buy book y'all. By this book. No, I mean, it's so it's really well written. It's beautifully written And we've see a lot of histories. But just the closing graph, and when you think about this, when you say Holding graft Dug in piece Tupamaro Shakor, a Fainish Sakor, Matulu Sakor Joseph, Uncle Joey Harding Kulani Suni Ali Yaki Kadafi Quincy Jones, Lisa leftftout Lopez, Clarence Henry you know, shock G, big psych stretch D. Evans, Nate Dg, John Singleton G Money Young noble Layla, I'm not even naming everyone Johnny Cocher I mean Terono with J jag of Pat. I mean There's so many. Lives that Both you and your brother Yeah touched by and and and u It's just incredible, man. It's just incredible. Yeah, it's been a ride. you know, You know, the younger part of our lives we're busy trying to live it And a Now in my latter years you know thinking about the impact and, you know, we weren't perfect, but we made an impact Yeah. You know, we I feel like we impacted our communities positively So u being that we've lost so many familyam and crew. you know, So I'm one of the few that could tell a story that've been around the longest How long had you been wanting to tell this story? I mean, it did it take you get into a certain point where you felt you could reflect and then and then get it down? or did you I started When I was locked up I was locked up, doing something silly, I'm sitting there thinking about myself. And u think it about my life and I'm like, okay, this would be a productive thing to do get started on because I I knew it was going to be necessary then. And over the years Do a little bit, keepeep going do a little bit Then we got to the point where I needed help And then M Talia. You know, Yeah. once, you know, once we got together on an An our agent, shout out to John It was it was an experience. It was a lot of work. It was more work than I thought. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, thank God, you have a great wife Nalia. because it seems like she really helps you keep she really seems to know your history, man of care and deep deeply care and knows it. You knowes she's high educated. She's Ford feellllow Uh, you know what I'm saying N YU masters all that. I ain't got all that. I got a I got a street PhD, You know what I'm saying? U all the academic work is is To her credit, that's amazing. And you know, she has a degree in Africana studies and Latin history and studies, you know, which was necessary in my story because a lot of my family was connected to these um Innational issues, you know, We were pan Africans Pan Africanism My father helped fight in revolutions in Africa you know, so those necessary. At what point in your life did it hit you? like what being The son ofou like that you were the son of Matou Lu Sakor and what that? the heaviness of that what that entailed When I was When I was like fourteen And I saw The article in the New York Times. U This is a terrorist Hm tell the story in the book about come in the top of the stairs one night because you heard your dad arguing with someone and He see a bag of rifles and you think Yeah. Yeah. and I I hadn't seen them kind of rifles before. I was a shorty. I was like seven seeven eight And uh, I was like, yo I one of them it was me. got a bunch ofem in there. I one of them to me, you know? I was so, you know, but I knew related to something intense and serious because he was Aguing with my brother's mother, Moto at the time. I just never seen it M sixteen before You know, I've been down south shooting Remington rifles and and Dy Daisy BB guns, but I hadn't seen that before. But it didn't register. Yeah, you know, it didn't register. Yeah But you see that N York Times article and all of a sudden You're putting the pieces together at that point. Th then I see with T loou Chakor Mastermind of I was like, who, whoa. So I was like, oh boy goingoing down. I mean, was the overwhelming sense at that point when you read that like fear Fear for your family, fear for Anxiety Anxiety I'm like, what did that mean? Where, you know, u Where whereere are these rifles going to be shot at You know Didn't know. Yeah. didnidn't know. Then I'm with my mother and I see The FBI wanted post in the post office. you know, you see that in movies, but that really happened to me. I was like Um, you know, FBI timimmost wanted I got sad because I didn't know I know that meant trouble simply I know it me trouble and I didn't know when I would see him again. Yeah So that that bothered me. But, you know, people offtten confuse My father and The Fanies political assignments, Fany was in the Black Panthers, a Harlem chapter of the Black Panthers. My father, Matula Chicall, was not a Black Panther He was in the Black Liberation Army. And part of the conventional government of the Republic of New Africa Yeah But they supported each other. You know, all these groups supported each other. The weather underground, all these different groups, anti war anntti poverty. These people were starting to work together. Even Malcolm and Martin was starting to Right. You know, right. Right beforefore he was murdered. There were a lot of radical groups, not just the Black Panthers at that time. R. working to Th civil society, right Iish US government. The Irish IRA folks I mean, you know They were connected with the struggles of the world. Yeah and that that I respect Yeah, because we ain't the only ones going through something that u We need allies to fight these battles And if you, you know, in the You know, there's power in numbers Work together That makes sense to me. Yeah A lot of people think that probably your childhood and Pox's childhood was was just getting indoctrinated by theory, like all day every day What was I imagine reality is a little different. I imagine there was a balance. There was a I'm sure there was Um you know, moments where it wasn't just being taught about the struggles around the global struggle and the Back struggle and how the Back struggle relates to whatever Like, so what was the balance at home? How much was it being taught you know, those global conflicts and then also how much people would just normal family life. Well, when I live with a fy Mulu, they were It seemed they were trying to open us up to the world as opposed to The sick America, you know different cultures. I mean, because we practice Kanza. When I'm with them, we practice Kanza, but Don't get it twisted. I love me some Christmas. Okay. Yeah. you know, and there was room there was room for both. It was room for both. It was room andmm I'm glad I got both of those experiences. because it makes you, you know Smarter. Yeah, I feel. Yeah, gives you a comple it gives you a more complete picture of the world Im And how was it perceived in the rest of the neighborhood? Be I'm sure also, you know, your entire neighborhood wasn't full of revolutionaries. So were people the neighborood kind of looking like,, your parents are a lot heavy or was it like I grew up in Southide Jamaica Queens So, you know, Queens is is, uh, Queens New York, New Jersey, there's a lot of, um, you know There's a lot of those movements the F Centers, the Mors and, you know, a lot of island people up that way. They kind of understood, but in my neighborhood it was stuged out. So when I came around my little koofi and my Dashiki, you know what I mean?? I looked a little different, but I felt good. My little African medallion, you know Oh. My father wore a lot of African jewelry with shells and beads and differenterent color stones and leather and different, you know what I mean? Yeah. That could be cool too 'cause Matoua was the coolest. Yeah. Yeah, he was the coolest Yeah you put in the book that even before I mean, like long before he was ever when he was just Gerl was his N. Jare. Yeah. Jaree. excuse me He was always the coolest you said. He could always get away with the most and dress the fest and evenven that but in his own way dude and his, uh and they, um And one of the FBI files I think it's on his wed post it says U know the frequent fine dining establishments You know what I mean? he had a particular type of styile. He liked food He, you know, um He was a people person. Yeah. people And he loved kids. Yeah. He loved kids and he was a people person And that's what you know, Republic of New Afa Republic of New Africa was doing. they were setting up camps training O youth like this. Bite folks were training their youth Yeah That's where the rifles were going I know you and Pot shared a bunk bed. So I imagine like well, I have two little kids at home and Sometimes I roll up, I kind of go down the hallw. I hear I john at night when they're supposed to be asleep and stuff What were the things you in park just connected over as kids. What was What were what was your guys's relationship? Well at that time, he was real little so He wanted a, you know, he was looking at me. He wanted to be like me, likeike, you know And I had the advantage of being with my mother and Queens and having Christmas So but when I would come back to Matulu and the Fanies, I' have new stuff, different stuff that he would like And you know, he's soaking up the game. I had some pumas. he wanted some pumas You know Pum was was the shit and you know, I had tryry to guide them in the right direction We we love food and we always fought together at our cousins up in Bronx. Got a the Lessenes shout out to the Lasenes up in the Bronx, Lee Land projects My father would drop us off up there because there was a bunch of boy cousins, you know, that the boys go play with the boys and um There was always in something. My cousin Kenny, my cousin Billy, yo, they wild, but they're very lovable Very lovable And they' be always into some shit and you know, the cousins fight with the cousins Yeah So it was a bonding, it created a bonding thing Oh and we love karate Karate Bruce Lee was the man at the time. So everybody was Bruce Lee black, white, yellow. We were all Bruce Lee. We all had our gis, karate slippers. So That's the time you were on was Bruce Lee Oh yeah, yeah, that's why I end up breaking my arm. We Mitulu too because Mitulu was a brown belt and karate Yeah, and you guys were in karate, right You guys were follow the arts. Yeah teach guys slap path the karate school. Yeah. And we learned a little bit, you know, we'd be standing there in our horse stand And since they come kick us trip us on our butt F V And Park did not like that very much, but, you know, that was the That's how I was Was he always u like a like a, I don't know how tosful but like a hot headad. Was he always didid it always have a temper in that way? He did have a temper and he had a big mouth He'll tell you yourself he had a big mouth And um you would have to be smarted in his mouth I mean, that's how I see it. you know, you have to be able to control your your old emotions and temper and try to Connect with him because he's very passionate is very genuine And It was sort of reactive But you know, it was coming straight from his heart. How would that come up with you guys between you two as kids when you're younger? Fighting Not only did we fight with our cousins, we karate fight Played karate fight All that, you know, that was a real thing And, you know, I was bigger than him. Sometimes I hit him too hard And he get pissed off. He get pissed off, Bw up all the big eyebrows. and you know when he when he was mad, and you know, it was like, d d you know. And he was two, three years old. so he wasn't really used to having a brother yet And, you know, but we got We got we got we got tight. It was a real big brother littleittle brother dynamic then. Yeah And then withulu would walk us to school, hand in hand, you know felt like leaving to bevers some shit, but walking down the streets of Harlem. me on one side park on the otheral Welc can us to go And you mentioned the sayines, like Park for a long time or grew up thinking that Billy was his father, right No, you're talking about Billy Garland. I'm telling Billy Garland, excuse me Um Gloria Cox, A Glo. That's a Fany sister. Okay And she she got ten kids.' a bunch We got a bunch of cousins. Yeah. Cin's family is wild. The family tree is wild. Yeah, yeah. So you know, we were all in New York You know, we were all in New York While we were growing up, you know, Doing a school thing parents We' doing anything. you know? And until eighty one uil Nyak down Do want you want to lay out that story I mean for people who don't know just kind of how like the importance of Niac and all of this and your father's story. Okay and Nayat, New York Um There was appropriation progress a shopping center in Niak, New York Um and in which a security guard and police officer were killed And at that point A lot of the comrades went on the run Most of them got caught too stayed on the run He was on the run for like five years. Um He was accused of being part of that. He was charged, he did his time for that, as well as the liberation of Assada Shakor He was captured to get her out of Prison. Correct,. And which she stayed free until her last days. And u Matulu ended up serving thirty seven, close to thirty eight years You know, he paid for it. You know, he's a true political prisoner. which this country doesn't say that we have, but his his His motives were clearly political. in nature Yeah, you know Yeah Did your dad and Assada, did they ever get a Was there ever a way for them to back channel and over the course of time and it was just too dangerous. I think he was getting some messages from someone. I just don't know who. You know, but they weren't frequent. It was just on a check in type thing Even though she wasn't captured, she was free in Cuba and she would make her own moves and you know but they stayed They you know, they did as much as they could. It was that's why I keep talking about the level of commitment. those days the times were little times are different, but the social impact they were having was was way more intense You know, the anti war folks were blowing up buildings in the US U there was appropriations, there was jail breaks Because, you know, things are unfair, pressure bus pipes. Yeah. pressure bus pipes and, um Kind of like, know, the politics of the Republic of New Africa, Okay, you don't like us. You don't like us, you don't like us. Okay, okay Well, we can solve this peacefully by you people giving us These particular states to be run by us people since you don't like us. Yeah. Can't let you we you just supposed to let you just kill us all up and you know, abuse us So we're going to have these states And we're going to build our own nation Be we have not as well, we have not been paid corporations right, which, you know It's conveniently forgotten over How many is So that that that That's kind of day of thinking And if you don't give it to us We would have to make other arrangements. Yeah. Yeah. We have to figure out how to get that to ourselves.. Yeah, we got just going accept no. Okay. You know, they just weren't accepting no. and accept the conditions of our Exactly exxactly. The difference to me is You know, late. sixties, early the mid seventies, there were a lot of, there was assassinations. Yeah. you know and the US They were assassinations for Malcolm Martin, Meger Kennedy and Plus Fred Hampton, we can go on. Yeah Yeah Bobby Huttting. Yes, correct. The level of commitment was way more serious. Yeah. When you were young at any point did you think That was going to be your life. you take up that mantle and be a revolutionary as well and in the same way that your father was. Yeah, because we looked up to our uncles. Yeah. Baba Bala. Iother said cool Gerono, we looked up to them A lot of bad things started happening to them other uncles that were either Where's Uncle Solsa? Oh, he you know, he's locked up now and you know Once they go to jail you know, that broke the a lot of connections. Yeah. Jail or murdered. Jail all murdered, jail all murdered systematically because of Cointelpro And you even believe Perhaps that Cohen Tell Pro is operating on some level mayaybe under another name, someome version of Cohell Pro in the background of Park's career Crect under a different name. Yeah U different name, same tactics. Yeah Why? Because they worked They work'ed You know, the significant thing I think about our story is that we were like The last major significant story of the Panthers the era. The at us The liberation of Assada T know after that period. you know That liberation movement was was died. Yeah orr as just was fractured to the point of just not being as powerful or potent as it as it was Yeah But whileild to think then that you joined the military? Wh do think you know why you joined the military and that they didn't know who you were that they let you Exactly And, um You know, after my father got captured I was definitely going to talk to him about it. He knows like I knew growing up, he would always call me, this is my little soldier. This is my little soldier. My little soldier. That's all as a shorty. Yeah. you know, it's my little soldier. And so when he went down Dam I really don't know how to be a soldier yet Yeah. So I went to learn how to be a soldier. No politics attached. invaluable education In the military man I learned how to shoot I know about explosives. I know some shit. Yeah. Excuse me my French. When I went to visit him for the first time I told him he was like, Yeahah, that's good, that's good. You know, you gonna learn some things And then he told me about u Unc Geranimo was in the arrmy You know, his lot of the brothers was in the military. I didn't know Geronomo Pratt was in the was in the military because Now the Black Liberation Army was the on wing of the Black Panthers. So they supported the Panthers, you know, armed. Yeah, you know. and other groups becausecause the times were changing. you know, they had to they were adjusting their tactics to match what was going on. Yeah You know They would have loved to been peaceful But if is if they make it Untenable What you supposed to do? Just lay down and just die? Noah man. That's why they call it the struggle. It's a struggle We' back with more from Mream. After the break Being a small business owner isn't just a career, it's a calling Chase for Business knows how much heart and effort go into building something of your own That's why they make your business growth their priority. The team at Chase takes the time to understand your mission, where you are now and where you want to go Their broad range of solutions is designed with you in mind, so you can bring your ideas to life From banking to payment acceptance, to credit cards, you can conveniently manage all your business finances all in one place with their digital tools Looking for tips and advice, their online resources are always available to give you the solutions you need to help your business thrive See how your business can get stronger and go farther with Chase for businessusiness Learn more at chase d. com slash business Chase for business, make more of what's yours The Chase mobile app is available for select mobile devices, message and data rates may apply JP Morgan Chase Bank, N a member FDIC Copyright twenty twenty six, JP Morgan Chase and Company. My kids favorite place in the entire world to be is New York City. They want to go any chance they get, even if it means just accompanying me on a two night business trip. And this time they want to go to Central Park because we missed it last time. and they can't wait to have the bagels. They're like real New Yorkers. They love the bagels, they love the pizza, it's crazy Now if you're planning any upcoming trips, do you ever think about how your home will just be sitting empty while you're gone Why not consider listing your space on Airbnb You could be giving travelers like me a place to land while they visit somewhere new and earn some extra cash at the same time And with your co' network, you don't even need to stress the little details while you're enjoying your own trip You can hire a local co host to handle everything like creating your listing, managing reservations, guest communication, on site support even styling your space So while you're making your own memories, your home can be helping another family make theirs. Find a cohost at airbnb. com The future won't wait. And neither should you. That's why American Public University offers master's programs designed for momentum Affordable High quality and flexible So you keep moving forward W career relevant programs in business, healthcare, education, IT and more, you can gain skills You can use right away and the confidence Tower your next move American Public University madeade for what's next. Learn more at apu. aus . edu One of the other wild things about about your story And I always forget is you you and Park, you know, obviously It's a blended family. so you guys end up apart for a while, but just somehow Through fate, you guys wind up Bay Area at the same time. You know, he's younger, so he's around seventeen to eighteen, but you havenving just gotten out of the military find your way to the bay into to Oakland. Poxamerin Mhm and all of a sudden you' are able to reunite Emt It's even wilder than that because Mitulu was captured. in L.A. extr extradited back to New York sentenced and then sent back to LA Right. California. So we were all on the West cooast. Yeah And we were all on the West cooast. And like I said, there was a bit of relief There he was captured because there was talk of him not going Alive was he wasn't going to let them take them alive. Yeah. And so we were concerned that he would be killed And, um But when he was captured Everybody could breathe a little bit He's alive. Yeah. you know, we could the families could reconnect Yeah becausecause, you know, Co and Tel Pro, they were all on top of everybody trying to find a Sada one, then trying to find him two. And then when he's captured, they still trying to find a Sada Yeah. You know what I'm saying? So Yeah, it was gully. But you and Park really able to reunite because you're in the Bay arerea And and your sister set and Park set moved there because of Geradomo's family. Right. Geradomo's family was still there Andromos was in prison at that time already. but his wife and kids or his woman and his kids. So and then that's who Pot goes to live with That's where they started. Yeah where they started and then and then a fany moved out Um, you and then they got their their their own spot in Bay, but they didn't have much. They were broke. Yeah. you know And then we were blessed enough to make it in the game Well, I know you were kind of shocked by L the way that they were living at that time when you reconnected, that just it was it wasn't quite as It was a little less than you'd imagined or hoped or I'd imagineed right for your family. Yeah, you know, when you little You don't You don't always recognize poverty as much But I was older, so I knew where poverty really was at this point and, you know, what was going on and Yeah, it's not hard to maintain a nine to five when you got the fed on you all up in your business trying to Bring you down You know, and all your support system of people that would support you. They on them too. Yeah that's why You know, I felt I needed to write this story my story You know, I don't have the only story, but I feel like my story is quite significant because of You know, my relations my relationships. Yeah For history's sake For history's sake, for their history' sake, their history should be remembered. should be studied should be appreciated And um There's that history And then is Music history. Yeah You know I was first to to you know, on a hit on a hit record and family I mean, my grandmother used to make gospel records. Yeah't. It won't feels good. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, you got you you have eight bars on. Tony Tony Tony's feels good If it. phenomenal. Classic, Classic to this day. Hu know, God is good. huge. And then pop came out. But hold up, how did you get How did it happen that you wound up? You're in the military, you moved to Oakland. How did you wind up on Tonyy on Tony Tony Tony record? Beause I from Southide, Jamaica, Queens, New York and I from the meecca of hip hop and I grew up with hip hop We all my Anpire grew up grew up with it Yeah. all around us, especially he was in Harlem We were both up in the Bronx together and I was in Queens You know, run DMC But, you know, L L enough Rock him You know, that that that's my era right there, you know highly influenced me. So when I got out the arrmy got out with a little put myself in the studio through that process Bother name Kenya Baker his brother is in Tony Tony Tony But he was producing some a demo for me And they came and heard my demo and then asked me, did I want to be on the song R fields asked me, you know, ask every they ask me if Did I want to be on a song? I like Yeah Then I heard it, I was like, o Oh, this may be the magic. that that that those drums are infect infectious on that song Oh that's u I want to hull up I want to play I want to play second like that. I want tona play little verse eight bars on that. Oh All right, hold up. Yeah, man, you know, go and play classics. You wanna move the table back so you can dance? Let's do it Yeah, that that was a blessing Because that record when we connected The record was recorded But it wasn't out yet. So I got to You know tell give them the good news and everybody was happy for me, you know, Is that for real? Be everybody knew Tony Tony Tony. Tony Tony Tony had already had Little Walter, Hey Little Walt. I don't know if remember that first album? Yeah ye. And that was a hit. and then yeah, man. God,' good. It was a charm time in our lives It' sound great. Yeah Songs were like four minutes, four five minutes back then so'm near the end, but yeah, it was a big deal. Oh I was gonna come in, hold up B B, bo Mercedes, Mo, quQuite a nice fellow. M three te hit around r my capeello. They had the wow and I had the rhyme. So then I hit it that one more time. It worked out and then they worked it in. Tony Tony Tony has done it You know, the classics baric. can you reach me? Oh man. Ridiculous. And I love it because it's a feel good song. The name of it is feels good and it's a feel good song and it doesn't have no No a whole bunch of luggage attached. Yeah. Yeah. you know. I mean, I didn't I wasn't properly compensated but it is a U Blessing all the same. Yeah. Yeah. This's blessing all the same. Yeah. You know, I still love him dudes man. Rest of piece, Duwayne Wiggins. Yeah who passed away like last year ago or something. Yeah Yeah But Rahael shout out to Rapfael. I think he was just nominated for Oscar for Sinners. The Sinners. Yeah. Yeah, man. so we have some talent some talent? M. But you hold on the funny part about that and I didn't know this is When they ask you to do it, they're like, yeah, we' kind of Whynce you write something, we'll see what it turns out to. peopleople were also talking to MC Hammer see if they'll do something. Yeah. So were you were kind of like Colation prize. Not a consolation prize, but it was kind of like, listen. So I was like, man, I wonder I was like, this must have been a smart move ' at the end you go, Tony Tony, Tony has done it again. I'm like, okay, you must have name checked that I wasking ahead. Let's like, you're pick me because I'm' I'm gonna to shout y'all out on it, you know what I'm going to put your name. Yeah, yeah. I wrote dude making a commercials off of my tagline. Tony Tony, Tony has done it again. I like, yo But, um, Yeah, man. they were going to have MC Hammer do it for real, but H MC Hammer was hot at the time. He was quite pricey. So it was more economical. Yeah Fuck with this little New York dude. see what he got, you know? The dude was in the town at that time, you know what I mean? Yeah. And I didn't know nobody, you know, but I knew music. I knew I could do this Yeah. you know what I mean? I just needed a shot. Yeah I mean, that's even before digital underground pos and, you know So you have the first hit Yes. I am part of the story. first I am part of the story. And then when was inspired. Now That was my first record first in the family, but Pock had already been on hispollo stage I had already did raising and raiseing up son. R A Apollo Ace thirteen, right So we were honing our entertainment shops You know, and then when P got to Baltimore, they did he went to schoolchool of Ats Yeah And so he was ready. He was ready. Shock was keen enough to to recognize that G shock P Sa G He was a trained musician. He went to school in Tampa, music school. Yeah. So he got it pck out. we all tryry to be serious artists, you know? Yeah. And and and doing it in the bay Shout out to the Bay Area was a blessing because it was so creative groups, music, Musicians everywhere You know, legendary managers, legendary artists, legendary, you know what I mean U T short was out there. Richie Rich A young E forty forty water You know I'm saying. And it was just good, good energy, good a lot of creative juices flowing Did you when you reconnect to a park Was he did you could you sense that he was coming into his own that he was Yes So Aark New what was going on mean that that the logical organic thing was us to Do some music together. Yeah. We back together and do some, you know, And um, we sat down We sat down to write a song. I still remember naming the song. It was called Rolling Out of Foresight County Forside County, there was a Kan rally That year in Fstide County we seeen it on news Cadillacs beances Fas on them fuck them. C I curs I' aint Yeah. know what I'm sorry. Yeah. And so we sat down and started writing, started writing, trying to work out motherers like shit And no no Next thing I know. All right, let's go. What you got All like you finish already? Y Bob was a beast, his pen was wicked He was he was an excellent writer And because he would write poetry too I didn't write poetry. I just wrote rhyme songs. He would write poetry. And I was like, whooa, what? that's what I knew Oh he's really kids really got it. And then Shot gave him a shot The rest is history And then you're with them For most of the ride, man. like you guys are, I mean, you really saw the evolution of his his career I helped him get there And I mean because I was at the beginning he was I inspired him, you know, no exaggeration, but when he learned his big brother going to be on a record with Tony Tony Tony, that meant something. Yeah That meant something to a eighteen year old living in the bay. Yeah You know, yeah And then you're both at summer jam at the same time. You with Tony, Tony, Tony was shocked with with digital under theground with shocking then Money B. Yeah, ye. because It was it eighty eight, eighty nine eighty nine, ninety, ninety one, three, four years. we were at the summer jam every year. Somebody was out with a record meant they would be on the summer jam. either shock Tonies or, you know, always some of our people. Yeah, you know, rich, you know, there's always a reason for us to be there. So Tylia helped me work out my memory because I was remembering Uh One summer Jam was really the other summer Jam. It was just like kind of a blur, but it was such it was just yeah it's like yeah Tasle dream Well it's crazy too that like Pot gets the juice roll before it's really hard. I mean, even Having I lived it just to look back on it and knowing it and knowing all the stuff as well as I know it, but just it is hard to process that he got the juice roll before he even had the record deal. outside of digital underground, You know what I mean? hisis own solo record deal Um, yeah, because into digital Digitals h Do what you like Humpty dan. Yeah, huge. That's when Park got with digital so. becausecause they were so hot that they had a lot going on And you want to put that Dan Ackroy movie and actually know that I think about notothing but trouble. Nothing but trouble. Nothing but trouble. Yeah. Pockets little little quick cameo in that. Yeah But when Re came up for Juice Shock wanted Money B to do it first And then Mun was like, no ack need to do this, you know, it was more of a pck type role. and they' like, yeah, you Pion Giracis because they knew he was also trained. Yeah and as opposed to him guys from Balimore Eirine Both schools, right? Well, yeah. ye. Yeah. H first rap group was up in Marin. U Ray L, DJ did, strictly dope alwaysways shadow strictly dope Pox first Rack group And um, He blew away to audition He blew away the audition from what I heard and then the rest was history. Wow. And then we had to say like, oh shit, this sig is a movie star We ain't got no ickggad deal. And so he Dougan trying to get that done. Yeah. You know, it was a lot of work, you know, but it was trying to get all the money. What was it like with Interscope that it did it Over the course of things like how how Did you ever were ever around like Jimmy or I was around Ty Wy more than Jimmy, o I would have to deliver the music to any scope Pacabam' stududio, you like run this to the label, you know? And Play this in this for time. playlay this, you know, I have to play selects time looking for the singles and things like that. you know, had a lot of jobs, man. Yeah Yeah. had a lot of jobs, but we made it. we made it, you know, hook of crook. You know, and Park had a lot of energy and he needed someone who could keep up Yeah. and that he trusted. and He knew I was already and it B me having feels good It gave me I was comfortable. I was cool with that. I was cool with that. I want my brother to be hit now. Yeah, you know, and that just kept going. Yeah. he kept ha you run didn and stop. Yeah we had a good five, six year run. Yeah. Even when it sted even when he's gone it still keep, you know, It just don't stopop greatest all times. Yeah when it's rap shit for show. You know what the greatest thing about his story is in your story and all that is just when you reading through the book So much of the narrative about any rapper now. is about It's about money You know And when you're reading this your book and you really thinkin about Pox's leegacy and and you just kind of relive in it. it's like You probably never got the money you should have gotten Regardless, it's an inspiring story, man. L his life, you guys lived an inspired life around the arts, around uplifting uplifting People of all cultures really through your example, right? It's just like It's a success story that doesn't center around money. And that's fascinating to me because that's all we talk about now when we talk about kind of what set said it set Park apart was that he He wrote he often wrote about social issues Yeah. more than other artists. He wrote about social issues and he was passionate, genuine and intense.. So those songs about those social issues resesonated. Yeah. Brent hass got a baby Um, keep your head up You know, these You know, those songs got through. So u Be they were coming from a real place, a genuine place. You know, we come from community family of community organizers. Yeah, you know Um, he healers, um, you know, my my father was also an acupuncture doctor. You know, he did all that shit before thirty five, you know But I think that's what makes Px's music more than any other rapper's music like just perenally relevant as long as he made those records They're never out of style Pock is relevant right now. Right now got money for war but can't feed the poor. I see that everywhere in. And unfortunately it's still relevant. Yeah But u yeah, man We will That's part of that being aware of the world around us You know, it' you know, it's a big world out there and We ain't tellingone's going through it. 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He was a he was just a he was he was pretending. okay. He was a. I was like see, I mean, every year is a new story about why Pac was the way Pac was and this this is really who he was. You know what Pac was How was leegend Legend moves he made, the impact he had, the love he got, passion he displayed He's one of a kind. you know, he's one of a kind and um, St still resonates. Pox was the black James Dean. Yeah. You know,' he's the Bob Marley. he's that guy. Pox was that guy You know, I do I don't know how else to explain it, but his his, um, Prism Yeah, Chrisma. Yeah Miss that dude miss that dude, but he did it his way. He did it his way. Do you feel like Intercope knew what they had with him? Not until they got a hit record I mean, they knew he was a movie star right. So he was worth investing in And it might have paid off and it did. Right It did. But he's a movie star and he was plugged with one of the hottest groups in the game Digital R. So there was a lot of Fder for success. Yeah. You know And, um We were hungry prior to Us coming up, Park was poor, you know, we they were broke, you know Yeah. Park even tried dabbling in dope You know, selling drugs, but all the drug dealals like, man, you don't need to be doing this. This is not for you. Yeah Yeah. you know, And only only dudes who got love for you would, you know, say that pull you out and put you in a different direction Shout out to man manan, Mike Cooley you know Fers from Richmond. They helped get him in the studio in the early days. Yeah. you know And then when he got with Shock, Shock would assign different producers to work with Park Big Ded impossible who did changes. Shout out the Big D reci piece to Big D, Johnny Chop Master Jay. you know They did a lot of the early demos And then Park had a lot of friends. Yeah. So he would ended up working with everybody. We would end up kicking it with everybody. He was that dude. Everybody wanted him at their party. Everybody wanted him on their song. Yeah. So we you know, and I just try to support him. We just try to support him. let's get it. you know, you know, I was in the military as you know and they got a saying We all brothers in a fox hole. All brothers in a fox hole, no matter who what color you are with gender you are, we in that fox hole together, we down for the struggle together. We riding together. R. You know what I mean? And that's that's what it was The digital family You know? We got Pck. You know what I mean? We got them There's an incredible story about you guys Coming back to the Bay arerea and going to a fair in Marin, the county fair in Marin. Can you tell that story? Yeah, P had u was really been He was blowing up. his success. Yeah, had already done Juice, I think he had apocalypse now out has, you know, success with that. So he was doing good and He wanted to get back to his community whereere he came from over there in Marin and we went back for the fair and these dudes started fight And u, You know, we came with our cousins, the Laines Outlaw Edi when he was younger, you know, they were all young. And some other kids from the neighborhood in Richmond went to the fair. We had no ill or malintent. Dudes just walked out to about What you say that about Marine saidity bow Not just. hit him in the face and it was on And then we knew we were outdumbered and tried to get up out of there. and u We got a b of there, thank God, but a child was killed you know, they were shooting We was you know, it was going down. They were shooting and um It's unfortunate. The aftermath of that, like what do what are you guys even about it, what's the vibe after that? It was You know, the worst day of our lives, you know None of us won Anything like that to happen. Yeah But we realized out here in this this this world in this game this much tension these things could happen and we didn't have a No security really. It was just us. Yeah You know, Pac was just starting now we we couldn't actually afford it. Yeah. you know, and he really needed extra and, you know, that's kind of G gotott to look at the label and all that as far as that goes, but he was a movie star. as well as a successful rapper nou.. So his popularity was high And all we had was us, you know what I mean And we was out there with our cousins with our kids in u Castro had a cast on his leg at the time to his h, you know, when I'm long cast? Yeah And so, you know, dudzes are shooting at us we trying to run and It was just bad. It was a bad day topops seam even gun inv b me, you got you got a gun Pice you head by a cop Yeah, S I put the Yeah, Sall I put a pistol to my head? And the crowd was attacking us. And u Um pocket in front, we were trying to wait for everybody to get in the truck. so get out of there and We were waiting At the same time, the sheriff had a pistle to my head Croud It still coming They throw rocks, theyr they're mad, they're angry And know what I mean? And you know, because they think Park dis Marin they busted out the window, started busting all the windows, but then they started pulling on the doors Soarted pulling on the doors, it was going yank think it was Ey on I said. It was about to yank them out and it was gonna be get even worse So Eade it I hated. There was a lot going on. so I think the sheriff got distracted Popped it in reverse. It was I got us about it there. Yeah. I got us about it. Also as the older brother, I felt responsible for taking care of everybody to a certain degree. And you really did play that older brother role. I mean, it I mean, it I didn't really know that story that things got I mean, I know things got kind of weird at death row Then you got pushed out Seems that way I mean, you know, we will time. Now that's used later five years later, but at that time Uh we were rep in we have been reping thug life. which are It had its own power Death thow had its own power. I thought when we combine forces, you know, we all be allies righting together or, you know, but there was a lot of gang shit going on, you know? That throws LA. a lot of gang shit going on. you know, gang practices and how they get down you know, wasn't necessarily how we got down and, uh, You know? Shig didn't like me Who knew? I never had nothing against the brother. Yeah. So a lot of pressure started coming down on me in different ways So I decided to rac reallyly bow out My brother's grown now. He went from a Young man to a man He was growing, he became from a young man to a man. now he's a grown man And um, He's making his own decisions And, you know, we're big on freedom, let him have his freedom. You know, I I try as much as possible to influence him and All the positive ways. You know what I mean? And, uh, he took he he He learned a lot of lessons. He soaked up a lot of game, but he was still him. He was not not going to be him. Yeah. Aout that time though, he opens up an office out of your ass apartment his anance aart, your ans And so you would go through by there and Fanny would be there and just different family. It It was more of a family thing. But not so much Fanny, but Yas meanine. Well she'd at least be at his apartment and you go to his apartment sometimes. So you were around the family Whether Yeah. Yeah. I would go to the house. Yeah. once I stepped away Yeah I'll go to the to his house. He would be at the u he was in Calabases. I was like, you know I still loved him. He knew I still loved him. I was mad at him Um, You know The whole death thro shit I felt like he could have made that go a different way. You know, but I realized he was under pressure himself. Yeah So I didn't want to make it no hard of him. Yeah And and was that the consensus with the with the rest of the family too? It it sort of like, hey, this isn't, this isn't uh Well, everybody wasn'trivy to the same information and experiences you know Yeah. I was a frontline soldier so I was around but the good and bad in you know, in all the ways. And I guess my presence wasn't desire are required anymore I okay. You know because we had a positive Um At first, we had a positive outlook with Death Row because Park was always wanted to support black business. And Park had done good business with Sug in the past on the above the Rim movie. R soundtrack Yeah. Paid him stupid for it. So they had a good relationship. It's not, you know, Chig is who he is. Yeah. But they had a good relationship was, you know, they was trying to get def was trying to get park in the u Keep your head up days. Yeah. And he asked again, he had asked me what I thought. I'm like, yo Why you want to be on somebody else's ship? We' there the captain here right now, you the captain of your own shit, right? You should do this You know, until he couldn't do it no more and he needed some helpope and that's what thateded. A Park passed. What was it was And I know after Park Past Sg kind of went through his own He had his own thing going on. You know, he had a bunch of legal issues right after that happened. Was there communication between the family and Shug in the way you might imagine or people might have imagined there being? I mean, You know, my sister asked him directly And he said he didn't have nothing to do with what happened to Pop. And and Believe it or not, I believe it because My brother gave him power His relationship with my brother with my brother gave him power Yeah. So I don't see why he would Destroy a power source That's why investigation is going on. Were gonna see whoever the fuck it was, pard my French. But yeah, that's about as much as it went though, because he was dealing with his own shit as well. D the family have a bad feeling towards Sug at that point? or was it ike I guess I'm trying to understand like What I mean, we were all C conffused Dath thrat was a top dog and they was strong And they had a big security company securing them and they had gangbangers on the label and, you know, they they should have been Safe Yeah Um You know Things started happening to where You know, these these random things would happen these random fights would happen where which Cuse and be attacked You know, but you know, I feel it it was orchestrated I feel it was orchestrated I may be wrong, but we don't see. Yeah. You you feel confident we'll get some answers We going get more than we got now H Were going get more than we got now. Yeah. You know, but what pisses me off is that You know, shit is blatant. writing but yeah, I ye, you gave me the gun. I Okay Okay Okay, all y' tough guys. okay We go see You, I mean, I'm it's really, you know Um, I mean, does hold some responsibility for the the way he went about it You know, he went' wrong. It was just it was just a Pfect It was a perfect stone. Yeah. It was a perfect stone U the stuff that was going on on the east cooast were biggie and puffy. Shug had his own issues with dude Um, it was just, you know, you know uh, enemy are my enemy is my friend, you know what I mean? that that's kind of what was happening. And it was The storm was so perfect it was hard to not to for it not to take off like that. Yeah. Yeah Fog of warar situation in hindsight it might be clear what, you know, but Right. And a lot of the guys that were like hw was like stretch and You know, like you kn you knew those Guys Yeah, I knew Biggie, I knew Stretch. G back now to the quad shooting. you knew like you knew like so when Pach was adamant That those guys were involved, Haian Jack Stretch Pf Like, were you kind of like taken aback by that? Sen as you knew those people? Yes Yes I just didn't know Um To what degree the relationships had deteriorated? Yeah Because as of that day Pac was cool with all him. Yeah. Pac was cool until that day was cool with all lim M ' thinking about possibly signing. Sing, these are the things that people don't know Park was thinking about possibly exciting big to U the gutter, peopleeople forget that Park had a label deal He was finally in a position where he could sign artists. He was putting us out first thug like volum one is on out the gutter, right? Correct. Correct So he was in a position and We did songs together Pcket song pocket the outlaws this song were big and, you know, it was a real relationship there. You even said Runnning was supposed to be R for more ponies That comes out of the thug life concept Yeah. I mean, yeah, it was all about dog life at that time. Um, that's one of the projects that PC worked on the longest was the Thug lifeife project twoo and a half years we worked on that. straight out of actually while we were still working on strictly for my Niggas, kind of that's when it Dougl U materials started being created It' hell's an hell of a ride, man ' been the hell of a ride But yeah So, you know, things turn from sugar to shit is usually a reason And with our success, with the music success and Park was having, Film success, that movie star shit just kept getting bigger. Yeah, you know comes a lot of jealousy and envy And that's another thing you got to deal with that' hard to explain. Yeah. You know U Why you got beef with that nigg? I don't know why I got bef with that niga. He just don't like me. You know what I mean? S tell And then that turns into something. You know? So you were seeing that around, like people, people around being Yeah, and Pock was, you know, he was unapologetic He said, Yeah, then I'm the best. I'm the best and y'all should support me because I'm a ride for y'all. I'm a ride for the people. And he's like, y'all should know me by now. Yeah. Y'all should know me by now. I'm a ride for the people. Yeah And That resonated. People felt that. Yeah And it's amazing to how you guys stay in touch with Matulu the whole way the whole time. I mean, is it one of the funniest Sos I' to end on a lighter note, man. One of the funniest Aecdotes in the book It's when it comes from your dad when when You unack on the phone with Matulu. and you're telling them. about how Park's kind of hanging out with Mad Yeah That's like now my ps has his reputations with his ladies of of all types. So, you know, he, you know, he was trying to drop the game on us, you know, you know, because he he still want to be considered a player Now look here. Now look here, y'all, don't pack. Don't have sex with her. Six of m. Six of mind get into a mine. f I wish you' coming from it. M Pak was like, Yo, we start a bustz out lelev it. I' like, dude, I I'ulu. Okay. All right, sure. sure thing Simly thingsings are mind. Yeah, ye. It's like too late. Yeah man Yeah, Cn, it's Madonna. He, there might actually in hindsight been some g in that though. This might have been some game in that though in hindsight. Yeah, ye. ye. Yeah, but it was too late. too l. It was actually too late. Sex with mine first. Yeah. And I mean, We talked all the time because