Memories of Little Richard and Record Plant

Pushkin Robert Marglev is one of the most quietly consequential figures in modern music A sonic architect who helped build some of the most innovative and enduring sounds of the last half century Together with his partner, Malcolm Cecil, Robert created Tonto, the world's largest analog synthesizer. and use it to co produce a string of era defining Stevie Wonder classics, including Music of My Mind, Tal in Book, Innervisions, and fulfilling this's first finale He went on to work with Jeff Beck, Osley Brothers in a scrappy art punk band from Akron, Ohio, called Divo helping shape their early sound into something that felt like it arrived from another dimension entirely You might remember Robert from his broken record in inter review a few years back Now he's releasing an audio book called Shaping Sound Stevie Wonder Divo, The Syth Revolution and My Life Behind the Music It's a memoir about creativity, collaboration, and artistic courage told by someone who was in the room On today's episode I sit with Margolev and Mark Mothersba front manan of Divo, composer, visual artist, and one of the most original creative minds of his generation They recall working together to make Divot's freedom of choice in the glory days of recording at the reccord plant in Los Angeles in the eighties You can use the code sounds twenty five at pushing. Fm slash sh and sounds to save twenty five percent on audi This is Broken Record. Real Musicians Real Conversations This is an IiHart podcast Guaranteed human When you own your own business, you own every decision Now own the card that rewards you for it Chase Sapphire Reserve for Business is a pay and full car that elevates your travel experience and offers premium benefits that will take your business to the next level Sapphire Reserve for Bus offers eight X points on all purchases through chase traravel, three X points on social media, and search engine advertising, airport lounge access, and more Chase Sapphire Rerve for businessus. It's the card that gives you back all you put in Learn more at chase d. com forward slash reserve businessus Chase for business Make more of what's yours accccounts subject to credit approval, restrictions and limitations apply Cards are issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank N a Remember FDIC My kid's favorite place in the entire world to visit is New York City. so much so that they're begging me to come on my work trip, I'm taking there in the next few weeks. And this time they want to go to Central Park because we missed it last time. If you're planning any upcoming trips, instead of letting your home sit empty while you're gone, you could be listing your space on Airbnb, giving travelers, like me, a place to land while they visit somewhere new It's a smart, practical way to make use of your place while you're away and earn some extra cash at the same time. And now with the cohost network, you could hire a local co host to handle everything like managing reservations, guest communication, and even styling your space. Find a cohost at airbnb dot com slash host The future won't wait And neither should you. That's why American Public University offers master's programs designed for momentum affordable High quality and flexible So you keep moving forward career relevant programs in business, healthcare, education, IT, and more You can gain skills, you can use right away and the confidence ower your next move American Public University made for what's next Learn more at apu. a usS . edu Here's my conversation with Robert Margolev and Mark Moth'ersba We were one step ahead of the digital sampling where you could like do something like that and then have it on a key and play it later. Right. So that came a few years later. So you guys actually had to crack a Yeah, we had to crack the whip. Yeah. We had to take turns whipping each other. It was awful. You know, the things that really are worthwhile stick out and when you think about freedom of choice in general, that record really has lasted This is Mark's stududio. We're in Mark Mothersbach stududio. And you guys obviously have a history, which we're here to talk about. We have a very long history. But I didn't know you had a history with this Oh yeah. Mark works out it. Although I've never actually recorded in this building except with Tonto. Tonto used to live exactly where Mark is sitting right now. The instrument was here for about two or three years We didn't get a lot done We came and fiddled around with it more than actually Got serious with it here But I was off on other adventures at that time and I don't know, Malcolm, I never really sort of u put our minds to it as much as we should have and could have. It was a remarkable opportunity that I think I sort of think we missed out on that We could have done more here. than we did But I was off making records. Yeah, we were off doing things. Yeah. I was I had found out about film and TV scoring and cameame my love so I was deep in that. But it was but Tanto brought a really great energy because also at that time I had building was fairly new. So like a lot of stuff like these racks of tapes weren't in this room back then. so Tana was kind of had the whole room all to itself and Uh it was It was pretty amazing because A lot of people came over and saw Tano and they were just like over just to even see it. It was such an amazing piece of art. and And u It had great energy. It was kind of like You know, Bob, that was probably Bob when his mind was working the fact I don't know if that's true or not, but you were definitely busy in that time period to have created that that instrument. I think it wass around Stevie time too, so Our work together, we really well, we did we did it a freedom of choice before that time. Way before that. Before before the synthesis before. Yeah, before yeah Tanto was here, yeah Boy, that was something else I love making that record. Oh yeah, I have a lot of really good memories about it Yeah, that's probably In a lot of ways it's probably the best Divo record and definitely Sonically, it was Divo learned a lot from you, you know, we when we started off, we just had like a little Tac four track and And I was like recording, okay, I'll put all the drums on one track bass on one, guitar on one, thenen I got to mix it all down and then add a vocal and a solo and that would like limit aesthetically what you could do. back in those days. so So we were used to that world and then I mean, there's there's a lot of good things. We worked with Brian, Ino and Bowie on our first one, but Ino was new to producing and He in retrospect said, Yeahah, you know, there I wish I would have known more about how to produce a band you know, when he worked with us. and then u The next one was Ken Scott and he kind of took our songs apart in a way, in an unfortunate way because because they were written to be played live. We wrote them while we were playing. in clubs and then He had us all play one at a time to a click and not id't destroy the record. Yeah, which is interesting because I mean, he got his start. with like those early Beatles records, right? And Yeah so you would you would think his hisis inclination would be to do something live, you know in the studio. Yeah, you know, maybe he regretted it afterwards. I don't know We never talked again after that. but You know, it was like Bob came along and he brought so much to what we were doing and he had the right kind of we had the right kind of chemistry. Bob was a producer who had been you know, not only very successful, but he was always an artist and always you know, a technician and um, He was the kind of guy that it was like magical to work with in a way because He had a great person, you know he could work with people. He was empathetic in a way that was really helpful for us because we were like paranoid and negative come off you'd come off with two albums that really should have been a lot better. and artistically Yeah And you knew it And I knew it. My secret was to let you be yourselves and to put you in a place and looking back, I'm doing some research on perceptive listening now And I found out that by Fing what I was doing naturally not only with Mark, but with Stevie and most of my artists was to bring them into the control room. And the control room is like a musical instrument that you inhabit And by bringing them into the control room We didn't have to deal with headphones with the exception of Alan Myers, the drummer he had enough leakage out around his headphones so that he could hear his drums in space as well as what was going on in his head The entire band was in the control room and By listening without headphones, they weren't isolated headadphones tend to isolate people one from the other and separate you from the reality. When we brought band into when Howard Siegel and I brought the band into the control room and ditched the headphones It's one of the main reasons that they were really able to play together I'd say that's true. yeah And I know from spepeaking to you on the show previously You were thinking of freedom of freedom of choice as Divo's fununk album. Well, that was our concept when we went into it. I mean, you know, you have to understand, we were pretty far out there if you look at the way we dressed and the way the kind of songs we were writing and we were a conceptual band, you know, we were about ideas first and you know, we weren't writing like about sex and drugs and rock and roll so much, you know, it wasn't we didn't have any lyrics that where I'm snorting whiskey and drinking cocaine. think I'm going to go insane And, you know, it's like I'm We were kind of tie all that I don't know. it just Bob sunk up with that really well. But we were yeah, we were thinking, how can we make our stuff sound more funky We were you know, like looking around at who did what and where things came from. And when we found out about Bob and saw well, he'd worked with Stevie, which was like couldn't be any better than that. but he was also this genius who created this instrument that One of a kind and and, um had an imprint on pop music at the time, you know, it influenced people even more than it then it actually got to be on the records. It's everybody knew about it and everybody and you saw the picture of it, it was like an an incredible piece of sculpture and You know, we sought him out and he was interested lucky for us. The dichotomy of that, even still in hindsight all these years later still fascinating to me that you have A machine, as seemingly at least to me experimental as Tonto and Avant Garde as Tonsso and an artist as Um as Stevie, you know, or as, you know, coming from Motown, which is very slicked and polish. I mean I love all the Motown stuff, but there's definitely for many years, there was a singular Motown sound. You know, Barry Gordy did refer to it as a factory, you know, And so formula. It was formulaic but not in a very cool way, But then for Stevie to come out of that and then to get paired with the sort of avant guard machine that you created, you and Malcolm Ceselil is It's fascinating. still You know, I never I never thought it would end We really in in its own space, that's for sure. in working with Mark, I really did pay attention to the R and B bottom end. which is I paid strict attention to that that recording that we did freedom of choice us to pay strict attention to the bottom end of the record. Being able to work in the control room, inside and inhabit the musical instrument itself, because a lot of the sounds we made weren't sounds until they fell out of the loudspeaker one way or another the control room itself we were inhabiting a musical instrument And I viewed it like that But the other thing that was really important to me where I've really had My success in music was because of the political overtones Diva was writing about was something that I really got I mean, I was ahead of the curve nineteen fifty eight U, you know, I remember Bed Gvers. I remember Martin Luther King, I remember John Lewis. I remember the Norman Pettis Fridge I remember little black girls being escorted to school by white marshals with guns So when I came out of high school, I was already The school I went to was really sort of based around the awareness of civil rights So the things that really attracted me in music were things that had something to do with civil rights and with the product with the sociological effects of civilization on itself, how it A lot of ways our civilization is eating itself. We're consuming our own our own rubbish in some way right now But u What attracted me to Divo also was the content of the lyrics It had like Stevie, we were doing things like living for the city and He's Mr. Nodo, which is about Richard Nixon, for example Mark and Jerry were writing music about the human condition and the prediction of the future. and right now here we are and twenty twenty six And what we were singing about the boys were doing in the studio nineteen eighty three or four, whatever it was They nailed it right on the right on the head of the thing. I mean there was it was predictive and we see it today. that the predictions, the Devodian predictions are coming true. It's like Dil was How do we how do we stop it? How do we Change the world again Can we change it through music? I wonder. I know. You know what When I was twenty, nineteen seventy I remember thinking, oh, I wish I was born in the nineteen twenties, you know, I wish I could have been in Europe during. incredible period of art where they were Bahas and surrealism and Dadaism and futurism and all those art movements were happening. I said, I wish I would have been around for that. I missed out on that. But that was a really dark period. That was between World War I and World War two and fascism was on the rise. And I feel like when Divo started in the seventies M. It was kind of like It' come back again And it created things like punk and New wave and electronica music and a lot of things It inspired artists just like fascism inspired artists in the twenties thirties. I think what happened in the seventies was because Jerry and I were at a school where We were protesting the war in Vietnam and they just said, okay, just And they shot like thirty some kids and killed four of them. and they did that at other places around the country and it shut everybody down It's like after that music turned into like this like corporate white rock where it was like, it was basically, I'm white I'm a misogynist I'm proud of it. I'm a conspicuous consumer You know, And it was that was like the politics of music. that or it was disco, which was like had beautiful sounds But like the lyrics were all stupid. And Jerry used to go, o, it's like a woman with no brain is how we felt about Disco. Be becausecause it didn't have a political message to it. It was like everything was During the period that Punk and Newway was starting, it was like that. I don't know, I'm an old guy now, so so like I've been around you didn't noticed that. Yeah. So it's been So it's like, well, then keep your prescription, whatever you're wearing just. You know, I feel like it's on another It's like I used to just We used to just talk about de evolution and things going down. but the reality is is I think The evolution and evolution both exist and they're in constant crisis with each other. conflict and I think this time period is going to going going to create young artists that are going to take take things from what's going on right now in the world They're going to be inspired by that and they're going to take the new technology, you know, it's like everybody's, Oh, AI, AI's evil, but it's also like technology was back in the seventies. it was like You could use it for good or bad. And I think what's going to happen is I think teechnology and what's happening now in the world is going to inspire young artists to do artwork that you and I are going to go. Dang, why didn't I think of that? That's amazing. We're gonna hear stuff from kids. I think it now is like a really amazing time to be a young artist. Yeah. I think, you know, just talking quickly about AI You know, the WGA, for example, the writer skills had God forbid you should have any AI in your dialogue in your script, your writing, your manuscript. And there's a tremendous amount of fear of people sticking their heads in the sand and trying to deny its existence We have to really understand that AI is here. It's not going away. And if we're going to use it creatively, that's a good thing But we have to learn how to use it to understand it You know, a lot of stuff what I'm hearing now musically is like AI slop is what I call it. even if it's not created by e, it's indiscernible. It's mindless. But yeah, but there are people who are using it creatively in a ways that I it would not have even dawned on me And u, I celebrate that. I think that that's a good thing I think we got to take our head out of the sand understand that it's here I mean, AI does good things in medicine. AI does good things in research It helps me write, what I'm doing research, that I need to know something? I have a I have my co pilot there. Itiv gives me information, educates me But I u think we're also, you know, the problem with AI and music is you know, somebody who wrote one song a month, maybe or one song every six weeks sweated over the lyrics and really, you know, did something that was heartfelt and poetic That' the same guy sitting in his kitchen table with the laptop with the headphones on and writing five hundred songs in a month. And then putting them up online and then, you know, polluting the atmosphere with what I call AI slop You know, and there's tons of it. How do you sort the good the wheat from the chaff after all of that The other problem is that it totally lacks rebotto and feel. I mean, when you think about it, if you think about a great conductor coming out on the stage and a guy comes out dressed like a penguin with a stick and starts waving it around and suddenly an entire orchestra is performing as one instrument. He's deciding where the music speeds up, where the music slows down, which is called Rbato or where it gets louder and where it gets softer. And you begin to realize that that whole orchestra is focused on the end of that stick that he's waving around and that his whole Eotion is being transmitted to the orchestra and they're playing with tremendous empathy And that's what we connect with whether it's that or it's Taylor Swift in front of a huge audience or a Divo in front of two thousand or five thousand people. It's that exchange, it's that vibe that we need to have that is the current of sound that we inhabit I think that that really what going circling way back, but I think that in a way was what really made that record successful was the eff fact that it was played as one instrument It was five people playing together as one instrument, everyveryone playing their place on the keyboard, so to speak. You know, Bob, And I totally agree with you, especially about the orchestra because I score movies and I score a lot of animation and animation, no matter how great it looks It's like if they show a picture of a field, There's millions of things happening out in that field, like little insects you can't see, but you and the wind blowing and leaves growing. If I just write it, you know, when I write the music and it's just on my sense and using my libraries of like orchestral sounds and it's a real orchestra going if you hear the same chord over and over again Everybody, even people that aren't, you know, very sophisticated musically, they all can say, oh, yeah, that's That's electronics. That's not That's not real people whereas When people come into a room like whether I'm at you know, Abbey Road or if I'm in in Sony Studios or Fox or wherever people that are coming off the streets and If it was raining outside, they're taking off raincoats and setting them beside them and they're setting down their newspapers and their bags. and, um, play And it's like, you never know exactly what it's going to sound like because They've all got blood going through their veins, they're breathing They're either blowing up or down or they're blowing at different rates and things. So it's never the exact same. and it's different and it makes the animation look so much better. Now to me, that's why I don't worry about AI because I remember when technology invented electronic drums and synth sounds and we loved all that stuff There were people that were going to the mall and they would buy a portable home organ and they'd hit button and they' go boom d boom d boom and they'd go, Oh look, and then they'd hit a basassline and' go, boom And then they'd play something over top of it and they'd go, look at this. I just made up a song, you know, And then theyd go, let's make another one up tomorrow, you know. So I feel like you and I already went through that And we saw that and we were taking that that same equipment and we were looking for artistic ways to use it. I wonder what pop music is going to sound like in twenty years I mean, we're as far away from Glenn Miller and Benny Goodman as you can get Okay, somehow music has evolved over the fifty or sixty, seventy years. since Glud Miller or You know, Tommy Dorsey. or Big Crosby. I think even, you know, you think, you know Go back it's like Louis Armstrong's Fives and seven Yeah. You know, think about what just happened at Coach the last wee and it. Yeah. The the interesting thing that happened though, It's the microphone changed everything. Yeah When Bing Crosby could walk out on the stage at radio City Music hall with a twenty five piece dance band orchestra with the big horn section and everything else. And they would record it and Bing could get to the bike like this and he would sing Baba voo, Buba voo Like that. And suddenly that was as loud as the entire orchestra. becausecause we rearranged the reality, right? You didn't have to re you've been rearranging that reality ever since. You know Uh, But that one microphone, that's why the girls were all like going crazy for being because Suddenly Bing was sitting right next to you And you could hear his breath and his teeth and his All of that stuff. You could suddenly it was like emotional connection. And that whole orchestra blowing their brains out in the background was B was louder than they were Yeah And suddenly we discovered the ability to rearrange reality with a microphone and recording. And what we were doing in the studio by the time we got to Divo was we were rearranging reality and making sounds that never even ever existed in the real world at all And to get M to get Mark on the microphone this close, you know, whip it good to make that as loud as the whole orchestra, the whole band That was us rearranging reality Divo has a very you guys have a Divo has a very unique philosophy in terms of your' your view of the human condition and the way you guys presented things and Robert, I think you also have a I'm curious, would you guys consider yourselves Technologists. or humanists or a blend of both because in one way, you guys are you both took advantage of technology in very unique ways and in very forward thinking ways. But in other ways, I think of both of you also as being deeply concerned about the human condition and experiment. I think it's about two things It's about humanity and empathy It's about the ability to connect your feelings with something poetic that means something to people around you that you can change. the course of their lives by virtue of your message. And I think that is about empathy And it's about the human condition And I think that's what poetry and art is about really and taking advantage of technology in pursuit of that is Yeah Well, technology to us is a musical instrument It's no different than any other musical instrument in a lot of ways The thing that's different is when Mark plays keyboards or synthesizer or keyboards of any kind it massages the medium He uses his fingers like this and the fingers, you have to have a certain amount of physical dexterity to connect your mind to your extremities Now we're getting to a place where we don't need to have physical connection I mean, if you think of Elon and Norlink, for example, Suddenly people are playing video games and will start expressing themselves purely by thinking. What's that good? And I think that we're beginning to see that starting to happen in a lot of ways It is it good is it bad? I don't know what it is, but it's it's there. We cannot deny the existence of the reality of where civilization is going. All we can do is hope to do the best we can in terms of being a human being Having empathy and joy. and trying to reach people and touch them in some kind of a tender. more than just intellectual way, but some kind of humane H. embrace. Yeah, I agree with you on that. You know, it's like, I think the real message Divo more than just things were going down, which it was, you know, now I feel like it's part of a yin yang of of reality I feel it was more like humans We're the one species out of touch with nature And what I think iss really important is AI, whatever you know, medium you use to make your music if it's just, you know, like likeike, um One rubber band that you're strumming whate or anything in between I think It's about people need to learn how to U mutate and not just get stagnated and just get rozen Like, so many people are frozen by the thought of AI and like social media now Uh, it's like What's left and what's right are like extreme They don't even really represent most of the people that lean either direction. They're like the extremists and they're just shouting at each other And the rest of us are all kind of in the middle and We're all craving common sense. There's no common sense at the extremes That's the problem we have politically as well. Yeah. so So I just feel like that's part of what you know, this this turnover when it when and you know, that uh, artists are going to be addressing that issue feel they'll help lead the way. I think, you know like as it's happened in the past, art has has informed people where where politics and you know, other mediums, you know kind of ready for Maybe it's been a long time. It's been thousandousands years, but maybe men could just and over to the side a little bit and U I'm waiting for women to kind of take over the planet. I'm looking for a feminist planet that would you know We need some peace in quiet and a hug And we need U part of humanity that's connected to nature and can reconnect because I mean the whole idea of like, Well We'll just use up everything on this planet and then we move to Mars. I'm like, well, you better love your your cell phone because If you if you haven't looked at pictures of Mars, it's very boring there and and there's Not a good reason to want to go there. You're going to be in a giant parking lot We need humans to connect more with with the natural world. The real issue for music now It's how to get heard distribution. It's not so much the creation as it is getting that message out. These guys have been don it for fifty years They've got they got the formula. People know who who Divo is Just like Stevie too. everyveryone knows who Stevie is. But Stevie, you go out on the road and he will play virtually songs that are fifty years old that were his original material He'll play he can play a whole lbum's worth of material. the boy Squ out and play his stuff off of freedom of choice Those are the old songs. Where are the new songs Where are we going to hear those? How are we going to change the culture? Again? How do we get heard I mean, you go to a record company now and lift guys says, eh Well, this is okay, but how many clicks do you have? You know, It's not about the music anymore. It's about trying to get heurt and to do something that's meaningful to touch people. emotionally and physically We'll be right back after this break Being a small business owner isn't just a career, it's a calling Chase for Business knows how much heart and effort go into building something of your own That's why they make your business growth their priority The team at Chase takes the time to understand your mission, where you are now and where you want to go Their broad range of solutions is designed with you in mind, so you can bring your ideas to life. From banking to payment acceptance to credit cards, you can conveniently manage all your business finances all in one place with their digital tools Looking for tips and advice, their online resources are always available to give you the solutions you need to help your business thrive See how your business can get stronger and go farther with Chase for businessus Learn more at chase d. com slash business Chase for businessusiness, M more of what's yours. The Chase mobile app is available for select mobile devices, message and data rates may apply JP Morgan Chase Bank NA member FDIC Copyright twenty twenty six, JP Morgan Chase and Company My kids favorite place in the entire world to be is New York City. They want to go any chance they get, even if it means just accompanying me on a two night business trip. And this time they want to go to Central Park because we missed it last time. And they can't wait to have the bagels. They're like real New Yorkers. They love the bagels, they love the pizza, it's crazy Now if you're planning any upcoming trips, do you ever think about how your home will just be sitting empty while you're gone Why not consider listing your space on Airbnb You could be giving travelers like me a place to land while they visit somewhere new and earn some extra cash at the same time And with your co' network, you don't even need to stress the little details while you're enjoying your own trip You can hire a local co host to handle everything like creating your listing, managing reservations, guest communication, on site support and even styling your space. So while you're making your own memories, your home can be helping another family make theirs. Find a co host at airbnb. com The future won't wait. and neither should you. That's why American Public University offers master's programs designed for momentum Affordable highigh quality and flexible Moving forward With career relevant programs in business, healthcare, education, IT and more You can gain skills You can use right away and the confidence power your next move American Public University made for what's next. Learn more at apu. aPUS . edu I do wonder not I mean, I don't want to get too hemmed up by a conversation about technology and AI and things like this, but to your earlier point about being a a little optimistic about AI I think we're I get pessimistic about it is around Pcific point you're making is that sometimes it feels like Whereas before Back to your Bing Crosby example, the invention of certain kinds of microphones allowed crooning to become a style of music and become a phenomenon amongst know and popular music. All these years later, I almost wonder if we've gotten to the point where the taail now wags the dog where music is in service of technology more often than teechnology is in service of music. I think that technology is our musical instruments. I think technology drives the art I've said it a thousand times. if I said it once our technology really does drive how we create and what we create and the space that we live in I mean, we're here in Mark's stududio. which is a glorious space. You guys got to go see it upstairs. But it's a marvel of modern technology. I think there's certain things that have come down the pike in some ways that have been destructive I think that we moved into dance music, for example and gotck locked into the sequencer And suddenly everything that had backbeat and feel She got transmitted to the kick drum in the downbeat versus the backbeat And I think that that really sort of changed music a lot And and I think not for the better because it's turned a lot of dance music. Instead of dance music, it's become militant four on the floor kind of militancy And uh I find that, you know, people want to dance to marching music I think that it really makes a real record happened like for example, we're in the studio When we were working together There was a the band had a marvelous drummer. H name was Alan Myers And I'll never forget him. We used to call Mr. TikTok, That guy could really You know, settle a groove But when he's but when the band was going from a verse to a chorus or to a transition to another section He knew when to hold it back. He knew when to speed it up that there was a degree of motion in his playing And what separates him from the machine is that motion 's just to You first saw Divo. Before that even their first album came out, right I saw them at the Starwood I was up in the balcony with all the executives from the record companies. you could tell they were executives from record companies because they were all wearing these leather jackets, you know the thing and they were all hunkering around Thank. This one's good. This band's good. This band isn't, you know, let's go have some m doeuvres in a little And I you know And we'd go in the back room at the Starwood and they'd honk around and I was working as the chief engineer of the record plant at the time consulting chief engineer. it was more or less a Sonic Nature D I was taking when bands, big bands came. into the record plan. I kind of hold their hand and help them gets situated and so forth. So It was an interesting thing, but I also had access to the studio If I wanted to do demos or do something recording, I could always get the free time So I was up there in the storewood always scouting around to see What was going on And that was the first time I saw you guys. and I knew then that I liked it. and one thing led to another and they arrived in the parking lot and I'll tell you something took the studio by storm. they would normally these people are non plused by anything. These guys came in the parking lot with pososes up their nose and the helmet on and coveralls and boots and stuff And the people wouldn't completely lost their minds, right? I said, I love this This is for me. We were in the middle of a day of filming with Neil Young for hisie movie Human Highway. and so we had our costume. just Rather than take everything apart and clean our faces off, we just came over and did it and then went back and we were on the set again. Yeah. But they they turned the studio. We took about a tour. everybody saw it and everybody lost their minds It was fucking crazy But you know something That's what endured me to these guys. Here we are, Mark and I have been friends now for what fifty years? Something like that, yeah. Yeah. Maybe more, I' Yeah. It's been a long and wonderful journey, you know, it's u We've both made our way in different ways and We've had the good fortune of having a great friendship. I'm just glad we're still here I hope I live another twenty years. I'm eighty five now, but If I can You going to go on what I'm ninety five. I would wonder where the m where our music is. is it can it still be eight bars of this and eight bars of that Three and a half minutes of noise making with words over the top. Or we going to go somewhere better, bigger different Yeah. That's what I really hope to see. Mark is still cutting the front edge of it. He's still gnawing away at it. I admire that in you. I really do. You're a brave soul, I must say. I guess who sought out who bothered? Did Divo look for We were looking for Marglo For somebody like a Margloff and then we found Marglo, he became the guy that we wanted to meet. and You're talking about business manager. didid we have the same business manager? Yeah, we had the same That's a midle even. And so he made the connection for us Were you? I was just spobbing around. Bobbing around being bob. beinging bobb, yah. How aware of like a any of those early records that he did or the records before he worked with you guys wereere you I mean of the Stevie Records or or the Heisley Brothers records, We even Lothr in the hand people, L whereere any those records in your orbit? Sure, That's all the stuff that made us want to find him because we'd see his name on all these records that were things that that we related to. And so that's what made us look for him and try to figure out, how do we talk to this guy? Would he even be Interested in working with somebody like? We weren't sure what he would be like or You know, neeither was I. Yeah. so we met him and then we were like, oh, this is perfect. This is going to be after we'd had kind of a couple swing and misses where where we left feeling like I wish we could I wish we could do that again. This is the album that We never felt like that about Freedom of Choice was the first album that we wrote after we had moved to California and um Yeah, it was interesting. We were in this little room on I think Seward. Where is SIR? It's on Seward Yeah Yeah right around the corner for Motown Yeah, mayaybe the aura was flicking off into maybehears studio. Motowns LA offices were directly across the street on the corner Yeah, writing that album was interesting because we did it in a room about the size of this. that was a storefront that they had covered up the window and attached to that was a big room that was a grocery store had been a grocery store and was later going to become Amoeba Records and, um Then I don't know what it is now because I think Ameibba moved out We remember What's their name? Pink Floyd. were they had the big room and they were rehearsing for a tour and they had three semi trucks And they wanted to go down to two semi trucks. And so they were throwing stuff away like old anvil cases and and lights and stuff. They set a Ondioline on top of the trash heap And I was just, you know, watching them because, you know, they didn't know who we were. they they were big and we were just like nobody. And When they put it on the trash sheap, I said, Hey, what are you guys gonna to do with that? And they said said, you want it? I go, Yeahah. And so I got this incredible We ended up using it on something. I can't remember which song, but we put it on something. Do you know what it ended up on Do you know which song recall obviously don't remember. I probably remember tonight. We you know, we ended up meeting after, I think we'd already finished writing this stuff or we were pretty far through by the time I went to a couple of rehearsals, made some suggestions, but seeing them in the studio in the rehearsal space gave me a lot of ideas and I knew when I saw them that They were the ideal candidates to bring into the control room. And because the record plant had big quad monitors, you have to understand This was a time when studios were Moving toward quadraphonic And that meant speakers in the back They had come up with a system called SansuiQS was supposed to be able to put quad Quadrphonic music, quadphonphonia, I think somebody wouldn't artist it quQuadrphinia, the Quia.Qu. And they were supposed to be able to put quad sound and vinyl That was a miserable failure But a lot of people tried to do it and Of course, the record plant was very keen. being that there were not only a fantasy, a psychedelic fantasy of Gary Kelgrs, but the technology level at that studio was pretty amazing They built some quad rooms. So when we came on board with Steve We had these quad spaces and When I started working with the boys, for example I was monitoring in quad in the control room. We could never get it into vinyl the right way. and basically failed peopleople didn't want to buy a separate amplifier for the back speakers and There are a lot of questions about it. and if you had a wife, you could get the subwoofer out of the fireplace and we're out from under the piano And it became, you know, if you were wealthy, you could have quad quads sound in your home theater But it never really took off. But where it really took off And where we really used it was monitoring in the control room. where I could monitor in quQad and really self realize We didn't need to use earphones becausecause we could be live We could get all the cross talk, the right stuff coming out of the right speaker going into your left ear and vice versa. And that was really what changed. Divo's voice. I was able and they were able to really hear what What's going on. The important thing about Divo and recording in the studio is to keep it simple. knock off the overdoving everywhere you can. stop orchestrating it Stop making it a Robert Margoleft record, Make it a Divo record The things sometimes the producers best thing is to stay behind the fucking curtain. You know, I don't want the record to sound like, Ohh, that's a Robert Margaleff record. I wanted it to be a Divo record. I want it to be a Stevie Wonder record. I think you succeeded in that in all almost all respects because yes. everything sounds very. You know, looking back on it, I realized how much how we listen is how it affects the recordings. Yeah And that's what separates the men from the boys in terms of making great recordings. in my opinion, especially pop records, but sooner or later you're going to get away from those eight bars of this and eight bars of that I want to see where you go with your film writing That's the interesting stuff. Well, maybe I should play you some things. I I'm all yours all the time for you, my friend. Okay I would love to go back in the studio and really create something crazy with you and Jerry. That would be great fun Would Divo ever make another record or is that U I'm trying to encourage it And I'm using different lures to get us there. So we'll see what happens. Youll never know. Hope you succeed. hope you succeed. You know, just when we worked with him, it was a time before automation. I still love analog synths and all that. We'd get our settings and we'd record them You know, like on Thursday night and then Friday morning, we'd come in and listen to it.'d go Yeah, what have I wish we would have done this a little different, you know, on the sound of the bass and stuff. and that's Bob solved that problem by teaching us how to send like a synth into three different outputs, for instance or like put an amp up in one room that's clean, an amp up that's distorted in another room and, um, then a board sound and then you could the next day you could change things just a little bit. and, uh That was one of the things that frustrated us with recording was up until then. so he was He taught us like really important things back then. So you would make a distorted speaker clean speaker and then have a One chanel to go right into the board. You have more of a dry sound. and then be able to play with the Lenox after because analog since You know, they didn't sound exactly the same fromom day to day, you plug them in again and they're warming up and you're playing it and it sounds different than when it gets fully warmed up. And there wasn't There just wasn't automation back then. Yeah Yeah, we had what we called what I called Armstrong automation which is like doing it by hand.. So that's But there's something to be said for that. and I miss that. that now, you know, we have digitalist and that I mean, when we were mixing, for example And we were at six o'clock in the morning and we still weren't where we wanted to be We put a big piece of tapeross masking tape across the console Don't touch that knob Yeah, it's more than me Jobs wororth Right It said We had to come back and We thought we walked out of the room and I was headed out to Malibu and flying along the freeway at six in the morning. Boy That was fucking terrific. It sounded wonderful. Nothing was touching. Wed come back in the room And we put it up and I'd expect to be, wow. And I said to myself, Dang, that sounds like shit you know Yeah, okay You know, so and then we'd be juggling it around for another six hours. Yeah know So before there was then he and Jerry himib and Jerry would go out in the in the parking lot and argue with each other This side and the other thing I said, Oh man, what did I do this time You know It was it was in circus, man. But you but you taught us a way to to bypass that with theult multi channel recording, you know, it was only five of us and you had twenty four tracks on a on a inch tpe. I had a wonderful time making that record. I really loved it. Were you aware of the kind of I guess, I mean I don't know how Truly precarious it was, but it seemed like you guys were kind of in trouble a bit with the label because of what they felt were perceived lack of sales in the first two. You know, I think David Bowie kind of pushed Warner Brothers into signing us in the first place because He wanted to he wanted to then sign us to Beauy Bothers, which was his production company and we didn't do that because it was like a bad it was a terrible deal. His lawyer was giving us it was like, we were going to give away like fifty percent of everything that we'd ever done to this and I was like, well, no, that's not going to work. But he kind of got them to sign us and then you know, the first couple albums came out and Although we'd been on Saturday night live It was only college stations that were playing our music in the US. In Europe, it was different. We had like Before we even had our first album out, we had off of our demos, we had four different songs. go into the top ten three of them number one in different countries in Europe, but that meant nothing in the US because US was the BMeth giant monster for record sales and you know, Europe was just tiny compared to that. So they they didn't They were just hoping that something would happen with the the records and it took the third album for for something to get on on the radio in the US. Did you feel that the pressure or did you not Like, did you care? D you not care that pressure was coming from the label to Yes and no. I had to try to not care about it because for me, I was just thinking, you know what? living such an amazing life right now that I get to write music and put it on a record and go out and play places. I just felt blast that I was in the position I was in Yeah I know with Stevie, there were a lot of interesting interactions with with the label with Motown that you had stepping into this situation. Well, he was feeding Motown, you know, because everybody if he had a hit song, that made a difference, you know, for everybody that worked at the record company. Divo was just so far down the chain that, you know, we were Nobody cared about us, but did I don't know, you guys cut a mighty bow wave And look how, look how this stuff their stuff has lasted and how you're still here and still on stage. I think that's absolutely remarkable. And I really support you for that. I think that you are really a social mover And you've brought a lot to music and to people and I All I want to do is see it continue to happen. thanks And I absolutely loved writing a book. It was strange Shaping sounds I really was shaping sounds. I just felt that I was doing something that was important I have to I really have to say it's important And what I'm really enjoying now is giving it away and actually The stories maybe change people's thinking about the creative act. I'm writing about perception and hearing right now. I'm gonna write a book about it And It's amazing what goes in those little holes on the sides of our head and what's really going in going in there and how it affects O brains, we've had music since the cave times I would I just I'm just eager to see where it's going to go next. And I know that I'm sort of one of those senior guys now I'm not twenty years old anymore, although I feel I am in my head until I get try to stand up, then I really realize I'm eighty five. and not teeen But I'm still a boy in my brain You know, so were you Yes There's a part of us that, um F So downownward spiral of the aging process the humiliation of getting older I still feel im mortal at your age, I'm sure. Sort of, sort of, not quite. I still think I'm twenty one and I wake up and I realize I'm Well, keep that thought in your head. Well, you know, but then I get my old daught, I'm like my daughters are closer to twenty one than I little We're kind of grouousing a little bit about AI here, but at the same time, we're hoping it makes us twenty one again, aren't we? Absolutely. I'm ready for that I'd tryed it out again. Mark is doing something really interesting right now. It defies explanation But the last time I in this room they were fog horns, air horns, compressors All kinds of things making pneumatic music with bellows, electric bellows like from a player piano that would power up all that stuff And he was making music with instruments that were T tootally foreign to what you would consider a musical instrument. It was a whole new acoustical kind of living creature. I really had wanted to go out there to see him do it, but He's going to some really exciting and different places now because he has the liberty to do it And I think that that is a gift that he's earned to be able to do that kind of stuff and I addmire it. I really do I want to play in that sandbox want to bring my bucket and shovel my bib overalls and get down on do some stuff. Well, careful what you say because I'm ready boy I like this stuff. Yeah After this last break we' be back with Ma from Robert and Mark Being a small business owner isn't just a career, it's a calling Chase for Business knows how much heart and effort go into building something of your own That's why they make your business growth their priority The team at Chase takes the time to understand your mission, where you are now and where you want to go Their broad range of solutions is designed with you in mind, so you can bring your ideas to light From banking to payment acceptance, to credit cards, you can conveniently manage all your business finances all in one place with their digital tools Looking for tips and advice, their online resources are always available to give you the solutions you need to help your business thrive See how your business can get stronger and go farther with Chase for businessusiness Learn more at chase d. com slash business Chase for business, make more of what's yours The Chase mobile app is available for select mobile devices, message and data rates may apply JP Morgan Chase Bank, N A member FDIC Copyright twenty twenty six, JP Morgan Chase and C comppany My kids favorite place in the entire world to visit is New York City So much so that they're begging me to come on my work trip. I'm taking there in the next few weeks. And this time they want to go to Central Park because we missed it last time. If you're planning any upcoming trips, instead of letting your home sit empty while you're gone, you could be listing your space on Airbnb, giving travelers, like me, a place to land while they visit somewhere new It's a smart, practical way to make use of your place while you're away and earn some extra cash at the same time And now with a cohost network, you could hire a local cohost to handle everything like managing reservations, guest communication, and even styling your space. Find a cohost at airbnb dot com slash host The future won't wait. and neither should you. That's why American Public University offers masters programs designed for momentum affordable High quality and flexible. Moving forward. career relevant programs in business, healthcare, education, IT, and more You can gain skills, you can use right away and the confidence power your next move American Public University madeade for what's next Learn more at au. aPUS . edu I'm thinking about The work you guys did, the fact that you guys did whip it You know that you were able to create a signature song for The band You know, I mean, I don I'm sure you guys think it was going to be like the hit it was when you created it, right? I don't know what we thought it was when we created it. It was kind of like the lyrics were kind of directed towards Jimmy Carter, but they were also kind of in a Thomas Pinchin style. I don't know if you've ever read Gravity's Rinbow but there's You have this really complicated story going on. and then all of a sudden somebody will look out a window and they know They'll watch some little kids playing on the street and they're just singing a nursery song that goes on. for a couple pages in Gravity's Rinbow. Then it goes back into this really intense story. and we kind of liked that. I think that's what we were thinking about at the time was something like that. and we didn't really We didn't really think it would be hit song. We thought Matter of fact Warner Brothers thought Girl You Want was going to be the song that would get on the radio. and they put that out first and then it was S somebody that programed discos in Florida. b whip it and thought, o, that would sound good on a dance floor And they started iting it and everybody picked it up and then It happened not away way. It had the energy Yeah, it had the right energy. But for me, when we first came out here, before we came out to California, and we were first just pure artists creating ideas and music I was imagining something because I was so into the twenties nineteen twenties, nineteen thirties in Europe, we were thinking, o, we're going to have like a cabaret or we're going to have a club that we play at and it'll be theatrical and it'll be, you know this extreme music three penny opera Yeah, and it was yeah, and we thought of it what we were doing as much more extreme. But then when we started playing places And we used to sound a lot more like Captain Beefhart meets an Italian sci fi movie. And in Ohio, at that time period in the early seventies People were just like they were coming out of factories and they wanted to go to a bar, have a drink and listen to the music that they heard on the radio live. And they didn't want to hear new music and they didn't want to hear political music and they didn't want to hear weirdo music where things like Joc O Homo or or Mongoloid, they didn't want to hear that stuff. And so We were thinking, well What are we going to do? And we thought subversion was the way to get in. And we thought, yeah, we have to do it like Madison Avenue does it where they They trick people into eating things and buying cars that are terrible and wearing clothes that look stupid and then people feeling proud of it. We thought, well, we'll use their techniques, but we'll just have a better product that we're selling And so we were looking for what would be our song that would lure people in and whip it It was exactly that because people would buy the album and then they'd hear the song, freedom of choice is what you've got. Freedom thrumb choice is what you want and then they go What does that mean? You know, And so it was It was the song that people to listen to us that otherwise would have just gone no. I imagine though, having a hit like that must have been a exciting for not only because it seems almost impossible to get something ahead of that magnitude, but it also seems like it could be a bit a little stifling Well, you know, what happens then is then When you do your next album, a record company that had totally just We're just waiting for you to use up your Your five album deal and get lost. All of a sudden they were like sticking their heads in the door going, Hey, how's it going Yeah, whatever you do. The leather jackets as I call them. Yeah, they go, just make sure you do another whip it and we'd be like, okay, well we don't even know how we did that one. so don't You know, it was just kind of it was just kind of accidental anyhow Yeah, that was an interesting record. I remember reccording the whip crack in the hall, Howard Siegel God blesson. she's gone now, but We were working together. It was my engineering partner and he'd be running up and down the hall at the record plant. We had this big long hallway between the studios and the canteen and stuff So we had microphones down at the end of the hall And I think you and Jerry were cracking the whip. I said, let me try it and I cracked it and cracked myself in the fase And I sort of gave up but You know, we weren't making there was no such thing as sampling or crack this whip or let's do whip crack from this library or that like. We had to do everything ourselves. And then we had to fly everything in because there's no stores, there's no digital, anything. Right, R. So I remember us flying all those whip cracks in and then overdubbing stuff on top of it and It was like a crazy bunch of alchemists. Yeah. We were completely nuts. We were one step ahead of the digital sampling where you could like do something like that and then have it on a key and play it later. Right. So that came a few years later. you guys actually had to crack a Yeah, we had a cracked a whip. Yeah. We had a real whip But we had to take turns whipping each other. It was awful You know, it's like ye chasing each other around in the parking lot with the bull whip. Yeah You know, the things that really are worthwhile stick stick out And when you think about freedom of choice in general That record really has lasted. We're in an interesting time, Bob. It's like,, you know, it's like kids now.