Reflecting on All That Jazz Finale

This message comes from NPR sponsor, Carvana. Carvana makes car buying easy. one hundred percent online, prices down to the penny, delivered to your door. Why make car buying hard when it could be easy? Visit cararvana. com today. Terms may apply Bullseye with Jesse Thorne is a production of maximumfund dot org and is distributed by NPR It's Bullsseye I'm Jesse Fornen. My first guest this week, Ben Verin He is a performer, and by that I mean an actor, a singer, a dancer, a classic triple threreat. He has been performing since he was six as a kid in Brooklyn in front of a congregation at his Pentecostal church By the time he turned twenty, he was acting on Broadway First in hair. A few years later, Jesus Christ superstar, his part as Judas Isscariat earned him a Tony nomination. A year later, he won a Tony for his role in Pippin.ourne myst anotic journey through our antigotic We got magic to do. justust for you, We got re place play. We get parts the football, parts the warm. Kings and thingsings take by storm and we go along our way And as brilliant a singer and dancer and stage actor Ben Vereen was He aspired to even more than that. He wanted to make a name for himself worldwide. TV and movies were calling In nineteen seventy seven, Ferene got a part in one of the biggest TV productions of all time Rots He played the enslaved person Chicken George. earned him an Emmy nomination And nearly fifty years later, Berene finds himself playing Sort of the same character, at least according to Verne He plays Isham Worthy, an enslaved person and conductor of the underground railroad living in the Atebellum South The TV show is called The Grey House It's a series that's out now on Prime videoide. I'm so thrilled to get to talk with Ben Varen, a genuine legend. Let's get right into it. Ben Fen and welcome to Bulls Eye. I am really happy to have you on the show I'm happy to be here Thank you. Thank you very much Ben is it different to prepare for playing a character who lived or fictionally lived one hundred and sixty, whatever years ago Yes it is. For me it is I can't s of all actors because I'm not them But I am myself And for me, I've got to somehow Cn next The ancestors if I may and Ill ask their permission to delve inside that spirit of that person that I'm going to interpret their lives. And in doing so, it gives me an opportunity to open part of me And my experienceces now and then Because you know, life is a continuum And although it seems like that was happening then, but behaviors are happening now And how I deal with them is how I deal with today, but how they dealt with them was how they dealt with them at that particular time. So I have to find a place of acceptance and allow myself to sink into that behavior And sometimes it gets a little rough It gets it over rub. although that the the writers have written Wonderful dialogue But it's the moments that are ot spoken That's some the depth of the individual that you're trying to portray gets to come through What do you do to ask permission have my own ritual. U I get quiet ort I' get in stillness. A friend of mine said, onnce you read the manual, Throw it away and trust your instincts So I read the manual Go within And I breatzhe prray that I give honor. to that particular character that I'm bringing forth at that particular moment And when they do, you better pray to the Lord for mercy on your soul for what will be done to you. M Je Why don't you move up north and take Tadport with you? Oh. Well, you come with us? I got the Van Lueser set up our underground railroad here. I'm the conductor. and I'm gonna finish what I started Is it harder to make that jump when the character that you're playing on screen is an enslaved person No, no. Time is a continuum And although consciously the human, I'm thinking about the fact of the fear factor, that's where I got to get away from and allow and trust the inward journey. is got to tell the story We need to hear these stories. When you're playing a character and I've played a few who have been enslaved And the mentality of that period of time where they were they didn't know about voting. they weren allowed to vote. They were allowed to read. They were not allowed we were not So they had to find a way to survive in that cultural understanding If I could just get through today, I'll be allright No, So playing a person then and playing a person now I have a different culture around me now Th then I had a culture. of the characters play he wasn't allowed to go to the court in McDonald's would you wanted to, but I would say You know You know what I'm saying? Yeah. How does it feel different to P play un enslaved man as a person in your late seventies than it did fifty years ago when you performed in roots Well, It's a continuation of the same story isn' it We're telling a story of a people who overcame the impossible and are overcoming the impossible It's not over. So don' let us that', you know just because we're here. No, it's not over. Not even black people. And one thing I like about this story. It's about community. It's about black and white people coming together. to set a people free saying this is wrong. roots It was about our own self determination to be free Although my character went to England and saw a new world and came back to tell that story of learned in England to his familyam desire for freedom to express ourselves That's something we can outlet be taken away, and we will not then be taken away. Nally us all people Does it feel different for you as a man in his late seventies rather than as a thirty or so year old? when you were in roots Is your relationship with that time and history different? I mean, I'm sure it does in the sense that they hurt. knees and elbows are a little creaky, but like yeah, they hurt now You know, in those days I could just spring across the floor and So these days I'm sitting back watching So yes There's a certain wisdom that comes with you the character Chicken George, I didn't have a chance to Well, that was my choice to show that po but this gave me the opportunity to continue Jeorge the story from another perspective T Isham who was educated, who was determined to help his other African brothers and sisters be free So much still to get into with the one and only Ben Vereen back after the break S Sllsye from Maximunot org and NPR This message comes from Whole Foods Market. The ultimate cookout starts with the ultimate ingredients. At Whole Foods Market, no antibiotics ever burgers and kebabs are prepped and ready to throw on the grill. Fire up a juicy riy creamy potato salad and savory flatbreads from the prerepared foods department, and round it all out with three hundred sixty five brand condiments, chips, and dips at everyday low prices Whole Foods Market, Make your summer sizzle. This message comes from NPR sponsor, Carvana. Carvana makes car buying easy. one hundred percent online, prices down to the penny, delivered to your door. Why make car buying hard when it could be easy? Visit cararvana. com today. Terms may apply This message comes from Capital One with the venture X card, earn Unlimited double miles, a three hundred dollars annual Capital onene travel credit and access to airport lounges. Capital one. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. Details at capital onene d. com This message comes from Mstacard. Everyone prefers things a certain way, like groceries. If you want groceries just how you like them, you gotta try Instacart They have a new preference picker that lets you pick how ripe or unripe you want your bananas. Shoppers can see your preferences up front, helping guide their choices. Because when it comes to groceries, the details matter. Instag card, G groceries just how you like NPR's tiny desk can't come to you. I mean it's a desk, but the tiny desk contest tour can. New York City join NPR's tiny Desk contest winner, Cure for Paranoia at Warsaw this july ninth. It's all the NPR Tiny Desk energy minus the office furniture Get your tickets now at tinydesktour. org Welcome back to Bullseye. I'm Jesse Thorne. I'm talking with Ben Vreen. He's a legend of the Broadway stage, the big screen, and the small screen He earned a Tony Award for his role in Pippin in nineteen seventy two. You can catch him now on The Greyhouse, a Civil War era period drama He stars alongside Mary Louise Parker and Keith David, among others Let's get back into our conversation You grew up in Brooklyn, New York Y Yes. What's the first time you remember performing for other people I'm from the church I'm from the Apostle church I was taught at the age of six or seven Get up my godmother, Mary Eddie And Reverend E E Edie Ey to stand out and express yourself from the inside out Stand upp, remember the first song I sang was Yes, Jesus lo me loves me I was about seventy years old But also, you know, I lived across the street from three guys who used to be in Vaudeville. and tip tap and toe I used to see them doing their things all the time. so I would had a vision of it But being able to standing on my own I really got a chance to perform. I told people the first time I got paid was the women's auxiliary fashion show at Ebenesa Baptist Church. I made five dollars I was professional. to sing Yeah, sing and dance How old are you Well I came home and said, Mom, I'm a professional I need an agent The guys who lived across the street tippped tap and toe. wereere they working when you were a kid I mean in business Well I did not see them on stage. I wish I had But they would do things like them Pay jazz and his shine shoes. And they were I didn't know, they were Vaudeville and they would shhine your shoe and pop the rags in rhythm They they step back and do a little dance. they come back and shine your shoes. Oh, it's beautiful Let's kid just press our nose up against the glass watching them. O Sddayly all the deacons would line up Because we had a blue law in New York in those days. No liquor was allowed to be sold. And on Sunday morning you see lying around the call all the deacons online they get their shoes signed and goes tip tap and toe, get a little dixie cups, a little liquor. before they went to church They were hot The reason I ask is that you know, Brooklyn is a half hour subway trip from Broadway. But It is also an entirely different world So yes it is What I wonder is When did you have the idea of show business as a career rather than you know, singing in church. I'm still looking for a career in show business N never did I never laid in my bed at night looking up the stars, saying, you know, one day I'm be at a Broadway stage I'm going be working with people like Bob Fossy and Cat Callaay You know, Ella Fitz Gerald. I'm going I'm going to be No My family were workers My mother a maid my father worked at the Jippli Paint factory as a worker We never sat around a table to talk politics or talk show business Dad was an adamate TV watcher. He'd watched TV is always was this church We never sat and had conversations about show business. It wasn't until actuallyually my u principal in junior high school saw me do some things at a talent show and suggested I go to the highigh School for performing Arts. And even there, I had never seen I heard talk of a Broadway show, but I never saw a Broadway show. I wasn't interested. I was interested in church. I was singing in the church had a group called The Sensational Twilights of Brooklyn Reverend Banks Ronald Banks' family. And we go around and we sing in churches So when Fforming arts happened to me. It was a pretty different culture The arts Do you remember your audition for PA, the High School of Performing Arts Oh, yes, I do. Yes, I do. I wore a pair of bermuda shorts, a t shirt, and foather a skinny brim hat and a pair of US Kid sneakers and a dance The Killer Joe by Quincy Jones And sit in front of me with some people I did never see in my life All these white people are funont of me And I'm dancing, I'm carrying on. and kind you know, I've finished my dance, I'm sitting on the side This woman comes over, her name is Dr. Rachel Yokam She asked me, how did I do I a height There's years later, I found out who those people were That's Martha Graham George Balanine Jeran Robins You know a few unknowns. Those are the ones who who are there to audit me for my audition years later, of course, I found out who they were and I was quite Hond to have had the opportunity to dance for them But it was an hurt, it was wow It was amazing. Where did you get the moves that you did? Did you choreograph it yourself? Yes, I did Yes, I did choreographed by Killer Joord by myself. in my living room on Hercuba Street Dad dad dad Yeah Yeah, I was my own choreograher, my own band and everything Did you love modern ds Yes I want to be a modern dancer That was my dream. Th then I met Bob Fosser Change that all around Was part of it your body Well, I never thought I had a dancer's body It wasn'tntil I met a guy named Tony Katanzaro, who was later in life. He was the principal dancer and the leader of the ballet of the modn Miami ballet company Tony Katin Zarrow would sit with me after school. and he would work with me Beause I never felt I had a dancer's body. Everyone else had a dancer's body And he said, No, you can do this. What do you mean by that specifically you the you know, the tuck under butt and theh, you know, the long arms and a head up and that whole structure the dancer has especially the ballet dancer. And the modern dance is the relaxing of that, but yet still keeping that same posture And so he taught me to get into that and be comfortable W that and to breathe into it and allow it. to express itself through me How much singing were you doing in high school Not much Matter of fact, I played steel drums in high school Glenn Terman, I believe he did the show. So he was a classmate of mine We had a group called tutopian five P steel drums I didn't really sing in school I dance to play steal drums As Matter of fact, my first show, I didn't sing at all It wasn't until sweet charities when I sang on stage. I mean, it's funny because like It's a much more obvious like if you're a sixteen year old, It's a much more obvious path into show business to imagine yourself as a pop singer than it is to imagine yourself as a professional dancer. like one is all over every screen you look at and coming out of every speaker that you listen to And one is kind of mysterious. So I'm surprised with the gift you have as a singer that it wasn't like Oh, you know, I'm going to be Elvis Presley or littleittle Richard or Lou Rs or Whever you were listening to on the radio. Sam Cook, sure. Tice Sam Sam Cook. That was not my vision. Understand. once again, my family didn't sit around and talk about. show business and and all the stars the show We never sat around that. You know, wed sit around tal about the food we had on the table and how to survive and things of that nature So we never had that conversation a broad way and what Broadway does I used to walk remember years in high school, I I heard about these things called Broadway showhs and I'd walk down the street and look at Marqueees I wonder what was going on inside that building? Why were all these kids so excited about Being in these houses up here My place is Brooklyn. You know I sing I sing in the church. And finally when Bob Fossy had me audition for sweet charity I sang on snage That was my first time singing on stage. I had never seen A Broadway show to Bob Fosty, invited me to see GQuin Burden in sweet charity I mean, I think that You're also talking about a time when you were a kid and a teenager Broadway may have been at its widest in its history. Oh yes, yes, it was It wasn't until people like Arthur Mitchell and, you know, and who broke the cuton line. Uh There was another young lady dan. She also broke the color line at Radio City. Yes, it was during that during that time There was a color line How did you get that audition for sweet charity? Do you remember I saw it in the backstage paper And I went to the audition and it was like the opening of all that jazz. every male danc in the world was on that stage I didn't have clothes and I just side to go the audition And that's why I met Bob Fosy The minute you walked in the joint. Let see you were a man of distinction, a real big banker. Good looking So refined. They wouldt like to know what's going on in my mind. So let me get right. What do you remember about it I'm from a bob I remember this guy coming down the middle of the aisle smoking a cigaret at a palace theater Boke a secret. I remember Bob demonstrating the combination that you wanted us to do and the ash is never falling as he did the combination in Mariu Smogan. And I'm thinking to myself, manan, this cat is cool And then he dec to flick the cigarette and the ases fell And he said, I can't do the combination. We couldn't remember the combination. We werere too busy watching the ashes. made it Were you used to the level of ferociousness that Bob Fossy was famous for bringing to his direction Oh, I didn't care about that. What I loved about it was He wanted perfection because he was trying to get the perfection in you He wanted to gets you to your best And that's why I loveved about I hear stories, have rumors about he was rough but. I said he was rough. He should be my mother That's rough , no. I enjoyed Bob. I miss him Had you ever danced the way that he choreographed No That style Pcision sharpness. flick of a finger, the pop of a head. No, mine was flowing and leaps and reaches and he just cut it all down It was quite wonderful Syle Where'd you have to learn? Syle Edone style How to breathe through movement. I had to trust it How to find the angles I know the angles are right. Yeah Did you notice that you were good at it People tell me I was I'm in it I'm not I'm looking like Bob would say wr that line and all that jazz When Bob said, look at boy Schider, Bob wrote it. He says, I look at a rose. And I said, how'd you do that Why can't I do that I'm too busy being it to see if I was good at it I don't know if that's wrong or right thatus I've lived my life Being it Thank you Of course. You also worked Right at the beginning of your career with Tom Horgan. Tom, Tom, Tom, Tom. Yes, yes, yes. Bob, just say to me, after you learned that work with Tom He said, how did he do it So why do he said, how does he do this He was so influential in our theater. We don't give Tom O' Hog enough praise. He broke the wall He freed us He gave us breath He allowed us to be ourselves He worked from the inside out. He is an amazing director. He would take me to cafes and group of us kids and he'd take a straw Not no straw. and put little holes in and they never floute He was an amazing creative genius of a man. What did you have to learn to be in hair and be good in hair To do, hey, I had to undo everything Id learned How to be free How to express myself in an open manner I gotiststand, it was the sixties We were running around tal about love, love, love It a h always send lovew within and let express itself through you That's a beautiful thing Is a beautiful thing of learning about meditation, learning all these things It was foreign to me I'm from the church. I'm from the holiness church. I'm gonna to hit down, smack around, call Jesus and fall on the floor and slabber and you Jesus, Jesus, Jus S no be quiet Try that I'm not saying the otherth' wrong It's all praising the same universal truth of who we are Breathe that in and express it What am Ive St s M B When you went in for that show, did you know what you were going in for No, No. a friend of my wife's the time before was my wife, Nancy Joni Koobvak is her name. She had been an agent. And we just got back from London. And Jodie looked at me, I was wearing my high top my boots, my riding boots and jeans and open jacket. and she said, you should be in hair I said, hereere, what's that not heard about hair when I was in London with Sarry. this actor had unfortunately, you know oded or burned up or something like that. that was on in the news. I'd heard about it And then not She says you should try out for it, You' be perfect for it Oh okay. So I went down to the Biltmore theater All these guys are there and girls and We started doing this audition, gave us, you know the assistant came up and gave us a bunch of moves and things of that nature. And I felt this presence over my shoulder. It was Tom who was watching me move through the crowds and through the movement Next you know we got a call I wass going to Los Angeles openp the Aquarius Theater Michael Butter was producing hair I'm sorry to ask a shallow question about a production that changed the course of theater history But I'll tell you, one time I was in a local television commercial in San Francisco. where I'm from And I went in and auditioned And they called me the next day. And they offered me the part. they told me to paid three hundred dollars, not bragging just the truth And I'm like, oh, great She goes, and they told you about the circumstances of the ad. And I'm like, what does that mean? She wass like, oh, well You'll be taking off your clothes. And I'm like, well I guess I already said yes. I don't know. I could really use three hundred dollars. So at what point in this process were they like, oh, and by the way You're going to be naked at one point. Here's the thing Tim Miragl' engines and Rado. They wrote some lyrics What a piece of work is, man The point was we were in Vietnam We just started civil rights movements. We had just seen my brothers and sisters hanging from the limbs of trees in the south We've seen brothers and sisters, you know All of us being shipped off the ships in Vietnam in a placeac we didn't even know about Killed. be manaimed For what reason And Hare was saying, Why? Do you want to destroy God's creation What Pace of work Is man, look at yourselves Look at your beauty in your nudity. before you decide to put on this fragment of a costume You are first inside of a human, beautifully made creation called the human body That's what hair was to me That's what the nudity scene was to me We're going to take a break when we come back, the conclusion of my interview with the iconic Ben Verin We'll talk more about his career And I will ask him how many scarves he owns and like a spoiler alert, but He has a lot of scarves It's Bullseye for maximumfund. org and NPR. This message comes from Whole Foods Market The ultimate cookout starts with the ultimate ingredients. At Whole Foods Market, no antibiotics ever burgers and kebabs are prepped and ready to throw on the grill. Fire up a juicy ribeye creamy potato salad and savory flatbreads from the prerepared foods department, and round it all out with three hundred and sixty five brand condiments, chips, and dips at everyday low prices Whole Foods Market, makeake your summer sizzle. NPR's newest podcast is where you can find NPR's biggest interviews I'm Stevevenskpe. The program is called Newsmakers. We talk with some of the most powerful and influential people of this moment Put real questions to them and push for real answers. Follow newsmakers on the NVR app or any podcast player or you can watch on NPR's YouTube channel Hi it's me, Peter Segel, host of Waitwit Don't tellell me. It's summer and if you want to turn your pool party into a nerd fest, check out our news quiz. We' got comedians, we got celebrities, we got games to help you laugh about the week's news. Yeah, that news. It'll be just like we're all hanging out at your backyard barbecue. Listen every week to Waitwit Don't tellell me O on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts Ready to go. knock knock. Who's there We got this with Mark and How ew this one. I can't put that out as an ad. We just did new episodes every week on maximumfund dot org or wherever you get your podcast. Now it's heane and rock. Han and rock Yeah How do you hue something in rock? With a chisel. There's only one hue in rock and it's Hueie Lewis And the news is, we got thoses of Market hows available every week on maximfund dot org commot I walked right into that C! It's Bllsy, I'm Jesse Thorne. I'm talking with Ben Verene. You can catch him on the new prime video drama, The Grey House I just watched all that jazz for the first time maybe six months ago or a year ago. I had never seen it before It is a substantially autobiographical film that Bob Fossy wrote and directed And yes You are in its anale And it is like Both all of your Charm and all of your gifts as a singer and dancer And It is like harrowing and scary as well. Or at least it was for me watching it Yeah Did he like call you and say, I want you to come do this Yes Yes, he did. What did he tell you about it? Another That's it. He said, I have this role I want you to do in my movie, I'm doing call all that jazz Autobiographical story He said, I want you to play this guy who was a TV host I don't want you to, u Fashion him after Sammy That's okay. Alli, so that's where we had the beads and, you know, the chains and the thing and And so I I read a Samuy on a plane and after Samy saw the movie said, if Bob wanted me whyn't just call me. I said, I don't know. And so I did the bit of the host, you know a TV host. to Las Vegas I was working at the MGM Grand and got another call from Bob He says, Ben, I'm stuck for a finale. He said I need you to come in for a week. I said Bob I'm working Teakas. he said just one week, just one week I says, okay. So I flew back to L to New York. And three weeks later we had the finale and I never forget preremier was at William Marsrars in their screening room and walk in and a bunch of his friends around Neil Simon and a bunch of writers and we werere sitting around a room watching this movie and Bob's right to right of me. And u The finale comes and and then you see him Die. He turned to me and he said, What do you think I said, Bob, B, I gott to go for a walk It' so strange A few yearses later, he was walking to rehearsal in Washington, the Kennedy Center, had a heart attack and died genius of a man Gius. and a good friend. If folks haven't seen the movie That finale is you singing a version of the Everly Brothers song byye by Love. That's called Bye by Life. Yes. And it is You know, it's like it's as in the film, as in the story of the film, it is show business cranked to a level of tightness and intensity where becomes sccary and upsetting and overwhelming How much of that, at least that was my experience as watching it? Yeah. you know, you're you're dancing around as, you know, the manifestation of show business and you're surrounded by dancers who are dressed as the human body. you know what I mean To what extent did you get that context when you were doing it. I mean, did he say, I need you to give me all of the intensity that you can muster. becauseause you're I mean, you're dancing like you're Sammy Davis Jr. You're sing like you're aousing He laid out the roadmap. And was my job to fulfill the task. And so he laid out laid it out for me and it was quite easy We just slip into that character singing that song bye by L and a finale of our lives. and seeing all of his life before him, Yeah think about this, s. When a person is dying And someone said that It's like you like flashb back on see everything in your life before you die That's what they say And that's what Bob was interpreting. To me. And the joy My character is a showopiz. performer was all the muster that he had brought to life He's saying byye bye to So For me, was was it was quite and honor to do this piece put hand ranking there and Kathy Dolby. Roy Scheider, it was wonderful. I thinkink he's gonna up, die A one, a two, three, four Sweet Cace. Hello emptiness. I feel like I could die. Bye bye my life goodbye. Bbye byy your life byye. Bye bye my life goodbye I mean, it's like a Vegas review, but it is also, I mean your your is in life. B my life isn't. I would imagine that yours is probably a little more like that than mine. Yeah. Well, you know, you gott to look it this way. We all have our different stages of life. Yours is a radio and this is what this is what you brilliantly do Mind the show business. I'm on the stage. That's what I do other person works in an office, that's what they do. That's their stage You know, but we all are in the same performance of life Pt pretty soon I say bye, bye life Bye bye, happiness. Hello, loneliness. I think I'm gonna die A and journey. It's a beautiful journey Let us enjoy it Let us find a way to bring peace and love to one another I guess I'm still a love child, aren't I Ben, we've covered a lot of really serious territory and you've got to go in a minute, but I have a stupid question for you. I've got to whereere to go. I've got whereere to go. What is it? What