Producing Herb Alpert and Future Projects

This message comes from IXL. IXL is designed to help students strengthen core skills and build confidence before the new school year begins. The adaptive platform provides personalized learning for pre K through twelfth grade and is used in ninety six of the top one hundred school districts in the United States. One hour of tutoring can cost more than an entire month of IXL Receive an exclusive twenty percent discount on an XL membership at xL d. com slash npR Bullseye with Jesse Thorne is a production of maximumfund. org and is distributed by NPR. It's Bllsseye. I'm Jessse Fore Before we get into my interview with Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis, I wanna start things off with a song. Cheewy if you would anta That's called Dream Street by Janet Jackson, a single from her nineteen eighty four album of the same name. A nice eighties dancy, new wavy song. But if you aren't familiar with it Look, I understand. Janet Jackson is a wholly unique artist and Dreamstreet doesn't really sound like a Janet Jackson song, you know? ust Sounds like a song Compare that though to her next single What have you done for me lately? Or the one after that. Nasty. Those are Janet Jackson' songs, right Both of those are from control nineteen eighty six Control was a departure for Janet. She stopped working with her father, and she brought on two guys from Minneapolis as producers and songwriters, Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis. And control was a hit A huge hit. five times pllatinum Album of the Year nomination at the Grammyys That record not only launched Janet's career, but also the careers of Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis. They're my guests They brought a fierce precise energy to that album that prodroucers aspire to to this day in their four decades of working together The two of them have written and produced over forty top ten hits. They've worked with Prince, Babyface, Usher, Mariah I mean, The New York Times put out a big article celebrating the thirty greatest living American songwriters the other day Look, I don't need to tell you whether Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis made it When I talked with them in twenty twenty one, they had just released Jam and Lewis volume one Believe it or not, it was Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis' debut album. It features vocals from a bunch of their collaborators, Babyface, Mary Jay Oblige, Boys to Men, and of course Alli Jammie Jamm Terry Lewis, welcome to Bs. I'm happy to be you on the show. Nice to be here. Absolutely happy to be here The process of recording this album, I imagine it this way over the course of your forty ish year partnership. you are trying to record an album the entire time, and every time you cut something for the album, somebody grabs it for their record like you're constantly trying to fill a bucket with a hole in the bottom of it. And only forty years in, do you actually accumulate enough songs that you get to make a record of them? Is that about right Yeah, I haven't heard the bucket analogy, but that's a good one. You know, we always were very sensitive towards the artists and what the artists wanted to have. And so when we would do songs and we would say, hey, this is for something for our album And then they'd keep the songs for themselves. We couldn't be that mad about it because it gave us a very nice writing and production career, you know, is which is perfectly fine. But yeah, that was a thing. We finally got selfish a few years back and decided to just keep the songs for ourselves point But you know it's been a great journey and a lot of great relationships over the years that, you know, if we would have done the record twenty years ago, thirty years ago, we wouldn't have had these relationships. So It all happens how it's supposed to happen, I guess What led you to get selfish I think a few things, age, number one. We turned sixty And Terry said, you know, when you turn sixty You can get selfish because you've basically been doing everything for everybody else, whether it's, you know your kids or whoever. And now it's time to do something for yourself There was actually a Japanese proverb or saying, I think it's called Konriki or something like that and please forgive me if I'm saying it wrong, but the idea of it is that you've been through all the different calendars of your life, you know, the pig and the whatever the animals are and all of the seasons and all of the suns and the fire and the water and all those different things. I'm not articulating it well, but that's kind of the idea. And when you turn sixty, you've been through each one of the calendars. So therefore you are reborn again So it feels like we're reborn again and for this phase of our career, I guess you could say We're being selfish and just doing exactly what we want to do, which is make music with people we want to make it with, doing the songs we want to do And then we just hope everybody just agrees with What we're you know, and, um, So that's kind of the concept of the album and really, I guess this portion of our journey of our career You guys are Obviously, legendary producers legendary for facilitating artists You know what I mean? That's a big part of a producer's job. Obviously, you guys also are, you know, you're writing songs, you're Coming up with sounds, those are important parts of what made you great producers and make you great producers. you know, your number one job is facilitating Were you able in making your own record to get to a point where you thought, well Mariah Cary is coming in here. or Usher is coming in here or, you know, all these folks that you've worked with for decades And they are going to be a vessel for us rather than the other way around in a simplistic way, I think just embracing artist ideas is kind of what we've always been able to do And even within this particular record, That was kind of a theme of our concept too Like, you have to meet people where they are. and All the artists always come in with a concept of what they want to say or where they want to be And, um, We kind of move it maybe a u inches left or right, but usually we try to stay right in the pocket of where they're headed where they want to be or where they see themselves. So You know, in that, you just want to get the best performance possible and then write a great song to go along with it I think the one difference And what Terry says is absolutely right as far as kind of the context of things Thene thing that's different about it to me is that there was no kind of record company agenda, not that in any way, am I trying to say record companies interfere, but I always come up with the word record company interference for some reason, those words all go together And but there was nobody saying Well, we have to shoot for this demographic or this analytic, or this whatever. There was none of those kinds of decisions being made in the process And we always felt like our studio is the safe space for artists to just do what they do So there was no expectation of we need to get on this radio station or we need to get on this streaming service or we need to that was not ever part of the conversations in making this record The record was always Let's do the best version of you we can possibly do. And even when the artists themselves maybe couldn't see what that best version of themselves were, we could Terry always says we're no Stradamas for everybody else. You know, we can we can look at somebody and go, this is the record you should be doing right now. Here's the record we'd like to hear you do right now And then we go make that record. So it was interesting like when the artists heard their songs, like Babyface is a great example of an artist where You know, obviously, he's as accomplished as an artist could possibly get as a songwriter as a producer where he first of all said, you guys produce it We'll write it together, but you guys produce it And when you heard the finished product He just said, manan, that sounds really good. And we said, banks. and he said No, that sounds really good. Like he was surprised about it and we were like Of course, it sounds good. it's babyface. You're babyfaceed, L, don't you remember who you are But I think for a lot of fans You forget that moment when you fell in love with those artists in the first place. So we wanted this album to bring that to the fans to go, oh man, this reminds me when I fell in love with Babyface upon hearing the song But what we also realized we were giving the artists a chance to fall back in love with themselves again, to hear themselves without having to do All the meticulous work that goes into the production side of it And but also once again, without the record company pressure of Well, this is, you know, your album or your next follow up single or your next without that pressure, just a safe space of being in the studio and just creating songs, if that makes sense. That's to me what we were able to bring And I think all the artists appreciated that Let's take that Baby Face song as an example because I really like the baby Face song from the record.' own He talking like he's a gy. he could b have any girl he won't He don't know about Babyface has a, you know thirty plus year history as a producer, as a songwriter and as an artist. So when you're sitting down to write a song with him, And you're going produce it for him Like What are you thinking of? Like what you are you trying to figure out in your head what makes babyface babyface or are you trying to figure out in your head What can Babyface do for us? Well, I'll give you my personal assessment of it And that was, well, we got to get this one right It's because we're fans of Baby Face as, you know, as an artist And as a producer And man, you don't want to mess up this thing at all. So You know, we always do our study in homework to try to figure out what we need to do with the particular artists that we're working with. But Babyface, for me was one of those ones that, oh, we have to get this one right I like the idea thatre you're tossing off the usher and Mariah tracks You're like, Oh yeah sure. O of course we can do that in our sleep, but we gott to get babyfish, right No, no, no, but it's just' more of a critical thing. like Once again, in production, we listen for mistakes and to have another producer, which all of the people that you mentioned whether it be Usher or Tony They all have ears as producers for themselves For some reason, Babyface was just one of those ones that I just felt like, o I gott toa get this one right because this is baby face He's and I just wanted to make sure that we got all the particulars in order so that he wouldn't hear and say, Hey, could you guys maybe change this, that or the other thing Have either of you sung on a record I used to call Terry Mrter Background Terry used to do the backgrounds on all our records, all the early days records back when you go back to like the Alexandro O'Neil records or human by the humuman League. All those smooth harmonies in the back. That's all Terry Lewis th. used to call him Mr. Background. so Terry's definitely sung on records and you know, we've sung a little bit, you know, we can do holler vocals like we call like, Hey, we can do that kind of stuff. Wellam. but Aam you s You saying u Cole L with Janet on What have you done for me lately, man Yeah, well coal lead lead is very Yeah. Yeah, that that's very generous Terry. I say the low part yeah, if you listen, there is an octave underneath that used to be a time when you yeah, I'm just kind of gruffoing down there. I'm definitely not turned up in the mix though, which is purposeful D It's re But no, I mean, yes, we can hold a note, I guess you could say, but you know, to use your bucket analogy, there's a hole in our bag. So we're holding a note, but it ain't, you know, it it's not doing the best it can. It's slipping away quickly. Yeah We' got grease on our fingers By the way, the good news about that though, I will say is that when we do demos for the artists It's great I remember we did a Gladys Nnight song and Anne Nesby did the from Sounds of Blackness did the demo of it And Gladys Knight said Ohoh Anne sounds really good. She should just keep that song for herself I my Well, Gladys Night is saying that then We need to just do the vocals oursel because when we did the vocals, everybody laughs when we do the vocals, right? But then they know they can go in and kill it. that they're going to make it sound really great. That's I guess the blessing is that we're not that great a singers, but we do know what we'd like for the singer to sing and how they should sing it. So it's a good balance. The two of you met as teenagers. Do you know Do you remember who spotted who? I spotted Terry It was a summer program at the University of Minnesota called upward bound. And the cool thing about the program was you basically stayed in dorms just like it was college But we were only junior high school students at the time And I remember as we were checking into the dorms, I walked by one of the dorm rooms and the door was open and sitting on the bed in the dorm was Terry Lewis playing a red black and green bass And he was playing cool in the gang bass parts on it. And I remember looking at him, I don't even know whether I said anything to him, but I just looked at him and I said, Okaykay, whoever this brother is, I got to get to know him. It was like love at first sight for me Cemery. And I think He saw me playing in in the lunchroom, they were storing a bunch of pianos because it was during the summer. so they were The school wasn't really in, The college part wasn't in. so they had moved a bunch of pianos into some lunchrooms. just to storm them. and I found my way to the piano so I would go down there and play And Terry would always say allegedly that I was swimming the girls or something when I was playing. but That was kind of how he saw me for the first time. So I think that we both had a mutual admiration society from first meeting, I guess I would say. And he was definitely swor in to girls Did the two of you have similar music tastes when you met Our musical taste word. Yeah, we were all over the place that way becausecause we grew up in Minneapolis and we probably did have some overlapping taste, but Minneapolis was a place that you very rarely would hear R and B music on the radio. You know, I was more of a funk R and B person But I also, you know, love some soft rock, you know, some James gang and some different things like that And so when I met Jam, Jam was turned me ono the new Chicago album and I was like Whoa, Chicago All right, Well, do you know about New birth Earth went in fire So I just started turning him on to more the R and B type music You know, and, uh, We just kind of started to blend things that way We've got even more with Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis. Stay with us Bullseye from maximum fund. org and NPR. This message comes from Progressive inssurance. You're listening to this podcast, so you've got a curious mind. Did you know that drivers who switch and save with prorogressive save over nine hundred dollars on average? 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Plus, you're the Kings of Boo Absolutely, we are. I appreciate seeing those coming in. Now, do you know what your perks are for being the member of the month I do I get to talk to you whichich is kind of the big thing, off course the the best. The parking space. Yep. And I think there's twenty five dollars in the Max fund shop. And you also get bumper sticker. Oh that's right. Yeah, so is there anything else you'd like to add? talalking to other people out there that are maybe considering joining Maximum F? Knowing that you're supporting something that you like that brings value and happiness to a ton of people That's a good feeling. You're fighting the good fight Support the shows you love, including this one. Check the show notes for a link or go to maximumfund. org slash join. Welcome back to Bulllls Eye I'm Jessseie Forn. If you are just joining, my guests are Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis There's songwriting and production duo who have helped create some of the biggest R and B hits of all time. They've worked with artists like Janet Jackson, Prince, Mary Tay Oblige, Usher I could spend the rest of this show listing names or we could listen to the rest of the interviews. So let's do the latter Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis. The other day on Bullseye, we had Wendny and Lisa on and You know, both of their dads were very serious professional musicians in in the wrecking crew and Both their moms were musicians as well, although mostly amateur ones And there was a part in the conversation where Wendy said that when she was in middle school or something She was listening to a lot of deep funk and I'm like What you're telling me you were like fourteen, fifteen years old, were you were hanging out listening to Mandrel or whatever And she goes, Ohh yeah, I'd loveved mandrel I was like, All right. Yep. Great taste. Dense wall But it's funny because, you know, she's in LA and she's like sneaking out to clubs and her Dad's a musician who playing Fank Sinatra Reords or whatever. And you guys are in Minneapolis where it's hard work just to listen to R and B Yeah, it was definitely hard work. And you know, I had the same kind of upbringing though my dad played still plays. as a musician to this day So I grew up with a bunch of instruments around my house. There was always keyboards around the house. There was always a drum set around the house. Actually, I got my first drum set, I think when I was maybe five years old And, you know, so I grew up really with instruments and stuff around the house But I think part of the thing that makes Terry where we really bonded over music was, you know, like Terry said, he introduced me to New birth and toower of powerower and eararth Wind and fire and those kinds of records. I introduced him to Chicago, but growing up I was into, you know, seals and crofts in America bread and anything that was harmony in major seven chords was my favorite stuff but we found a nice place where it blended. It took a while for us to figure out what the combination should be. for that because Terry would you know write something really funky and then I'd put a pretty melody over the top and he'd go no, or I'd write something really pretty melody and then he'd put a funky bottom on it and I'd go no. And we finally figured it out. probablyrob just Be goodood to me was probably with SOS band It' probably the first time that we kind of figured it out, you know, the funky bottom and pretty top as I guess some people call it. So that's kind of ended up being our combination, but it was because of differences of the kind of music that we listened to and appreciated But the thing was we appreciated it all music, so the chance to kind of blend those types of influences together was always cool. And growing up in Minneapolis, you had a chance to do that because you were getting East Coast reccords, West Coast reccords, you in Chicago Records, Memphis reccords, Nashrie Reords, Detroit records were all finding their way to Minneapolis. So it was a great kind of gumbo if you will, of a lot of different things. And obviously Prince personified that better than anybody, you know, kind of the blending of all types of music because he was as in as much into, you know, you think Jimy Hendris and Slly a Family Stone, but also You know, Lindsey Buckingham and Carlos Santana and All of those types of influences. So it was a great way to grow up Let's listen to Just Be Good to Me by the SOS band. This is from nineteen eighty three. One of the first things that the two of you guys worked on. outside of your own stuff and the time and so forth And yeah, your first your first big hit as producers That baseline is heavy though It' keyb to tell you. I got to tell you so so real quick story. The night we got fired from the time or as Terry likes to say, freed from the time. We were at suunset sound. We hadd gone for a recording session for the time And Prince was there along with Morris and Jesse And we walked into the room and Prince said, I heard you guys were working on other songs with the SOS band and I told you not to do that. so you're fired So when we said that, I just got up and said, okay, cool And so Terry Terry stayed in there and tried to reason with him a little bit U and eventually Terry came up So we kind of looked at each other and we said, well, what do you want to do And we said, well, let's go over to the other studio that we had already booked and let's go mix this SOS band record So we walked into the studio which was called Larby Sound. and the engineer was a guy named Steve Hodge. and we knew Steve Hodge's name from looking at the liner notes of all the Solar records productions from back in the day, Whispers Salamar Lakeside We knew that Steve Hodge was the engineer that mixed all those records. so we said, let's go get him to mix Just be good to me And so we walked into the studio. We had never met him. we'd only talked to him on the phone. And we walked in And he said, Hey, nice to meet you guys. We say nice to meet you, Steve. he says What's wrong with you guys? And we said, No, we just got fired from the time. And He said, you didn'? And he said, Yeahah And he said, Well said, I don't think you guys have anything to worry about Bea this song here This is a smash And we said, really? And he said, Yeahah. And he pressed play And when that song came on with his mix on it, with the bass like you're saying again and that thing exploded in, we were like, oh my go you know, so That experience of hearing that song every time I hear that song, it's so much more than just hearing a song It really was like the birth You know, it was the baby getting slapped on the butt in our first cry. That's what that song is to me when I hear that bass come in at the beginning. It was just just like I mean, that's the song that set us on our way I feel like the story that I have always heard about you guys getting fired from the time is is that the reason you got fired was because you were working on another record got stuck somewhere And missed a gig Did prints tell you not to work on other stuff He absolutely told us not to work on other stuff We actually were working on a record with a climax Uh, was one of the early records that we, um got the opportunity to produce And, um, We wouldn't played it for him and He went through a series of u tantrums, I guess. and finally told us, you know, hey, this song could be a hit and, you know But I don't want you guys doing records outside of the group. but He would never give us the opportunity to produce a record for the group And all we wanted to do was be better at what we love to do, which was create music And um So he told us not to do it And we said, Okay And then we went outside and said, M Let's go back and do some more. So it was it was u You know, very simple to us, It's like we weren't hurting anyone. It's like, why should we stop doing what we love to do? If we if we can't get the opportunity here We have to do it somewhere. And for someone to ask us to not do it wasn't didn't seem correct to us. So We just went on and we producing. We producce some things and wrote some things for Gladys Kight and finally got the opportunity to produce the SOS band through Clarence Avon And so That just became a great opportunity that we couldn't pass up And in the interim, we missed a flight and missed a gig and That history is what it is. but It was in no way to do anything to mess up the time thing. We always were committed to that We had to do what we 're meant to do to make music I mean, one of the weird things about the time as band is you have this act that is just top to bottom brilliant people who know what they're doing, you know what I mean? Like Rock solid, great band soup to nuts You have a great front man in Morris Day You're making great records And you know, you're sort of this is a band put together by Prince, one of the great music geniuses of the twentieth century. And so you have this kind of you have this kind of u Tension between Um basically like, hey, we're all great. Like we can tell that we are good And also like we can all tell Prince is a genius, I'm sure. at least that you know, that was how Wendy and Lisa described it to me they' like yeah, Prince was a genius. We could all tell But like Prince is like Hey, here's a record. I made it Morris can sing the vocals And you have to figure out what to do in that situation. It's such a weird place to be in Yeah, it's definitely a weird place to be in But I will say one thing, just just a nuance was that we were already together as a band and had been for quite a while. and were're already known as basically the best band in Minneapolis So when Morris came and joined us and said basically, I want you guys to be my band. Prince is going to get us a record deal At one point in time we had heard, Ras Morris had said that Prince didn't really want us for the band he wanted to give some other people for the band and Morris was the one that was insistent that no, flight time is the band. I'm keeping flight time. You know, Jimmy and Terry. and Monty and Jelly Bean and Jesse and the guys like these are the guys. Th these are this is the band So U obviously the record deal He did not put us together. It wasn't that type of thing. It was it was and he definitely did the records, no doubt about it But we were already together as a band and we were already tight and we already had The idea really was to always be better than the record. And that was the thing that Prince always said, Even when we would rehearse, you know, he'd always tell us It's got to be better than the record. It's got to be better than the record. So we always took that as gospel And so when our six hour a day rehearsals We were always trying to improve upon what was already there. And in the interim, of course, we were learning more about arranging and more about production and more about songwriting and those types of things. So we were all getting better at our craft You know, and he felt like he created Frankenstein because when we would get in concert and stuff you know, we'd be out there trying to kill him. L we'd be out there trying to, you know, we're going to kick his butt. And we did, you know, and and one of the funny things I remember too was when we were like in a small town, like when we were in like, I don't know, North Carolina or South Carolina and the headlines in the paper would come out and it would always be Yeah, Prince was really good, but oh my God the time That would always be kind of the headline And I remember specifically never being able to play in LA or New York with prints because those papers had too much You know, the whole country read the LA. Times and the New York Times So both of those places, we'd be in the towns but we couldn't play It would just be Prince in Vanity Six, but without the time playing And it was the weird that was talk about some weird stuff. That was weird You know, we could play Nassau Colosseum or we could play Long Beach arena, but we couldn't play The two kind of mecas at the time, the form in L.A and and Madison Square Guard in New York. We never played those Th those gigs. No So that was that was really interesting to us. But we took it seriously and it really was about bringing it to life, you know Prince created it, but we were the ones that really brought it to life. and that we took that responsibility reallyally seriously. I mean, in a funny way that prepares you for the decades of extraordinary success you had thereafter, right? where a huge part of your're Cer, your job is to take something that exists, whether it's an artist and their gifts or in some cases, an artist in their gifts and a song somebody wrote, although most of your hits you wrote. and find a way to make it into something special in the same way that, you know, in the time, your job was to start with this thing that somebody with a huge amount of talent gave you and find a way to make it into something more, make it better on stage than it was on the record Yeah, it was definitely good training and we always say we had the seasoning, you know, when you think about you know, live performing and learning about an audience, how to hold an audience, how to please an audience You know, once again, that's something we had done. that was in our DNA from the time Terry and I met We actually for a a lot of our early years, we were in separate bands. So we were in battle of the bands against each other, you know And so It was always about upping your level and getting better at what it was you did, like improving yourself. And it wasn't that we were trying to beat the other bands so much, it was just that we were trying to improve ourselves And that was the thing I always admired about Terry I remember one of the gigs we did You know, Terry's band was a little bit shorthanded, you know, he had some injuries or however you want to call it. And we went out and we they were wounded. Yes, they were wounded. And we went out and we went out and letached them, you know, But the very next gig, we did a big outdoor gig and you know, Terry came back and they had added a horn section and added all these pieces. And they killed us. But I remember looking at Terry not with anger, but with admiration. Damn Terry is killing it. And it's like we gott to get together. Like if we if we joined together then then we're really going to have something. So we always felt that way We felt that way about the members of the time. That's one of the reasons too that we never put another band together was because we felt we had already been in the best band we could ever be with. Like there's no No reason to ever even try to do another band So once we were not in the time anymore other than getting back together with the time and doing a couple of records and a couple of dates here and there We never really wanted to be in another band You know, we al already been in the best band we could possibly be in with the best best brothers we could ever have Do the two of you know when You were playing in rival bands and then when you were in the time together that The two of you were just going to be bound at the hip forever. Was there a point when you figured that out I don't think there was well Nothing specific, I think But we even in rival bands I used to go enlist Jimmy to play on my sessions when we took flight time in the studio I would always get him to come and play keyboards on whatever we were trying to produce And so we always work together Yeah And I I love that. I love that Yeah, it was never any animosity and rivalry that way is just that when you get on the stage that's well Somebody's got to go down. This is right. This is just the way that is, but As musicians know was total respect and You know, I never knew that we were going to get together and be partners And that all happened kind of just as a result of things happening in a negative way with the time sometimes And, you know, at a point You know, we had an argument, they called a big meeting And well, we had a disagreement. We won't even call it an argument where we weren't being handled like we thought we should be And so in the meeting Prince ask us, you know What are we going to do? I said, Well, I'm going to do what I got to do, Prince he said. Is that a threat? I said, No, that's a promise And so We went outside that room at that particular day and And I said, I'm going to LA. at the end of the tour. Who's coming? And Jam said, I'll come. And everybody else said They were going to go home and buy VCR And that's why we are partners to this day. U, because we we we chose to be together and together and You know, take whatever would come You know, we ate of a piece of chicken and a strawberry soda. and a biscuit for months on end with no money together And we braved a whole lot of circumstances. Do the two of you do different things? on records is one of you the guy that programs the drums or plays the drums or You know, Terry, are you always the one picking up the bass guitar No, man with Jimmy Jam on the keys, man. That's just like having an extra base player So a lot of times I don't play bass at all because my style is very You know My style And well very distinct Yes Yes, stink. And sometometimes we don't want it to stink on the record So so Jam plays a lot of keyboard bass a lot of times orr we had bigig Jim Wright Wh's a writer and a producer along with us and he played on a whole lot of records too. So when you had two gyms around, I didn't really need to play that much. so But I do write most of the lyrics not all And you know, I do produce a lot of the vocals. Jam does a lot of the drum programming are most of the drump programming now And pretty much all the keyboards. He at one time, he made me play And always thought that was really senseless for me to try to play keyboards with these two guys around that were so good and proficient at it. So I would struggle up on some stuff and you know, I did some some good work sometimes Making keyboard parts, what These guys are just pro so I always know my place. Sit back down and get my place easy I think that's part of the key too, by the way is that we always say we have no slack, meaning we pick up each other's slack And so there can be times where, you know, maybe I'll work on a song for a little bit. I can't really figure anything out and I just will throw it on a hard drive or something And then you know, years later, Terry'll find it, and all of a sudden it'll be like this song and he'll play it and I'll go, wait, where'd you find that? He says, Oh, it was on your hard drive. I'm like, oh my God, I couldn't imagine it was going to sound like that. So we do a lot of that type of thing. But the thing I always say about Terry would make him such a great lyricist is what it takes me paragraph to say he can say in a sentence. I think his efficiency in writing is amazing. We were doing one of the songs I always give it as an example. It's what we're doing living in a world they didn't make with Janet. or what turned out to be that. And we had seen the school shooting that had happened. and we wanted to write a song about it And Terry wasn't there. He had gone over. we were putting together a new studio in Minneapolis at that time. So You know, we're having a conversation with Janet about it And then Terry walks in with wallpaper samples in one hand and and carpet samples in the other hand. and he goes, Oh, which one of these do you like for the studio And we said Terry, Terry no Here's what we need We got this song And you know, these kids got shot and it's the adults fault And you know, it's not these kids fault. And blah, blah, blah, and we go through this long explanation and Terry just looks at us and says liivving in a world they didn't make So And we said, yeah, yeah. And he said, okay. And he puts the samples down. He goes in fifteen minutes later, he hands us the lyrics to the song. And then he goes, Okay, which wallpaper sample do you like? I mean, it was like the ultimate multitasking. But that's the gift that Terry has. It's like whatever you say to him, he can decipher it. and make it into a beautiful lyric. And even the way he goes about writing because he never wants to just write There's a million different ways to say I love you And Terry will figure out a unique way of saying it where you go, o, I haven't heard it like that before and There's something so magic about that. I'm glad and I get to sit every day and watch that happen as he creates that. I absolutely love that At the beginning of your careers as producers in the early to mid eighties Were you programming all your drums Yeah. I started off as a drummer. I think I mentioned earlier I don't know wh thather I did, but I had a drum set when I was like five years old. So drums was always my first love And when the drum machines happened, the Lyindrum DMX, the eight hundred eight I love programming the beats of doing that Um later on, when it went to the the SP twelve hundred it went to the u The NPC I was good on those, not quite as good as I was on the original you know lyin drums and stuff. So we had a couple of other guys. We had a guy named Alex Richberg who was a great drum programmer who actually showed me finally how to work the NPC in the right way But yeah, I love programming drums. I still do, I still do. But I think we're really good at knowing what we can do well and what we can't do well And I think that's always been a key to our success sort of is that we know what we do really well and then we'll try to do that to the to the utmost, but We also are the ultimate collaborators. So we'll bring in somebody that we'll hear and go, ooh, This is really good the way you program this other the way you played this or whatever and bring them in and let them do their. their thing. So the collaboration is is always the funnest part to me I mean, you guys are famous for using that eight away. you know, probably the most legendary drum machine of all time And you've used it in different ways over a time period where you know, started when the eight hundred eight was cutting edge technology And got to the point today where it is You know, it's a classic sound. likeike it's like I was trying to think of what's a more iconic musical instrument in American popular music. It's like, I guess maybe a stratocaster But like it's a pretty short list, you know what I mean? Like in terms of a particular sound Well What's interesting because the eight hundred eight is for most people, it is a sound And it is literally the sound that you would recognize is the sound of the low bass, of the sign bass There was always part of that And you know, we used to turn that up. I remember on tell me if you still care by the SOS band That was one of the first places that we turned up the decay on the kick drum to give it that boom that you he here on all the records And now of course, people started tuning that. So now it became literally the base on the records is just a tuned eight hundred eight. But it was funny because I remember a long time ago, I think we were probably working on Mariah's record back in the day. and I remember that one of the guys I dont remember the words beats by the pound or One of the other guys had they were looking for eight hundred eight sound. They were at our studio in Minneapolis and they said, hey, you guys have anything with a eight hundred eight sound on it And I said, Yeahah, and I gave them the eight hundred eight drum machine. And they said, what is this? And I said, It's the eight hundred eight drum machine. They said, Oh my God. And they I remember they got on their phones and started calling all their friends and going, man, they got an actual eight hundred eight, man. No, not the sound, the actual machine, man, they got the real machine. And it was so funny. I never thought of it like that, but that's what people think of when they think of eight hundred eight, they think of a sound They don't think of the actual machine, but we still have our original machine that did all the records from back in the day And we love it because whenever we need, there's funny, I played something for Germaine Dupriree the other day and he said Man is that a real eight hundred eight? And I said, yeah And he said I gott to get a R realo eight hundred eight. it was so funny But yeah, it's it's definitely like you said, Stratocaster, yeah. But I think as far as Certainly for drums that eight hundred eight is the one. and literally it's in every record that you hear nowadays So we're glad we still have our original one. We had Egyptian lover on the show one time. and I think he has a borderline romantic relationship with his eight hundred eight Like he's got like a stash Yes. yeah Yeah. No, it's a great drum machine. It was really funny too. even when you mentioned a little earlier when we were working on the Mariah record We knew the things that Mariah liked. When we first met Mariah for the very first time, she literally sang half our songbook back to us. She was like a true fan, you know how you meet people and they go, Ohh yeah, I'm a fan of your work and you go, well, what do you like? And They'll go. I like all your stuff. No she specifically was like, didn't mean to turn you on Just be good to me. tellell me if you still care. like she named off songs you know, and It was really funny when we worked even on this new record with her We made sure that the eight hundred eight sound was in there, the claps and the drums were the eight away drums And the synthesizer little lines where the where the OB eight and the baseline was the OB eight. Like we made sure to give her those ingredients that she liked. So it was like You know, taking a bite of a of a new meal in a restaurant, but it reminded you of the way mom used to cook it. you know, That's what we wanted to do with her song and really with all the songs on the album is give you that feel, you know So yeah, that we still to this day You know, we love using those sounds. They're so relevant and they're so beautiful And they're timeless. They're timeless sound We'll finish things up with Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis in just a minute After the break, we will dive deep into the Janet Jackson single, Love Will Never. and their jaw dropping, synthesizer work It's Bullseye from maximum fund. org and NPR This message comes from Wise, the smart way to manage your money around the world. With Wise, you can send, spend and receive money in over forty currencies at the mid market rate. Learn more at wise. com Ts and ses apppplies. This message comes from NPR sponsor Carvana. Carvana believes selling your car should be easy. Get a real offer down to the penny picked up from your driveway. You may keep waiting for a catch, there isn't one. Sell today at cararvana d. comot pickup fees may apply This message comes from Kachava. It can be tough to stick to your wellness routine, especially when you're on the go. Kachava's new travel packs make it easier. Just one packet provides nutrition ready for wherever life takes you with protein, fiber, grains, probiotics, electrolytes, and more. Take your daily ritual with you. Go to kachava dot com d And use code in PR. New customers get fifteen percent off their first order. That's kachaVa. com code in PR Hi everybody, it's Ellen Weatherford and Christian Weatherford People say not to judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree But we can judge a snake by its ability to fly or a spider by its ability to dive or a dung beetle by its ability to navigate with the starlight of the Milky Way Galaxy On just the Zoo of U us, we rate our favorite animals out of ten in the categories of physical effectiveness, behavioral ingenuity, and of course aesthetics Guest experts like biologists, ecologists, musicians, comedians and more join us to share their unique insights into the animal kingdom Listen with the whole family on maximumfund. org or wherever you get your podcasts Welome back Bulls eye. I'm Jesse Thor My guests are Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis. They are songwriters and producers who have worked on over forty top ten hits with some of the biggest names in R and B, including Janet Jackson's Control and Rhythm Nation. When I talked with Jimmy and Terry in twenty twenty one, they had just released their first album as a duo Jamon Lewis, volume one Banger after banger. Let's get back into our conversation I have a friend who is King nerd. of The Minneapolis sound, just one of the greatest nerds of every tributary of that river, not least of which is your work And he heard I was doing this interview and he sent me a stem that I wanted to play. So okay This is from and it could just because I just loved hearing it. So first I want to play a little bit of a hit that you guys made with Janet Jackson Love would never do without you So like when I hear that record, I hear a of a lot of the kind of signatures of the especially kind of upbeat records that you may with Janet Jackson, right? Janet has this beautiful this beautiful light voice that always feels like it's flying no matter what she's singing And you're backing that up with those, you know, with those hard drums. You know, boom bop, you know But he sent me the SEem that he sent me and he like he sent me a time code. He wanted me to hear this particular was uh was the synth. U just halfway through the record. So I just wanted to play a little bit of that So I gotta take us out of that or elsell I'll just listen to it all day long Yeah, that was my, um That was my attempt to slide the family stone R but played on a played on an played on an Oi eight. That's that's an Oi eight organ A five is the setting on the OB eight on the original settings. That's what that is. I know exactly the sound. That's funky. What's wild to me about that is that that is like a complimentary piece in this song, right? Like as I describeed, like as a casual listener to that hit record I'm here in Janet and I'm here in that drum track, you know And I'm hearing choruses of vocals, you know, you got the kind of big call and responsse type deal going on. You know, there's a lot of things going on that's on And That part is so distinctive and so funky And it's just in there, you know what I mean? Like it's just a piece of the puzzle And it's Yeah. You know, that's the seasoning when I we do talk all the time about the seasoning and stuff. it's like when you cook in the kitchen, right? You know, when you taste the food, You just taste it and it either tastes good or it doesn't taste good But if you're an actual chef when you taste the food, You're not only tasting that it tastes good overall, but you're also deciphering all of the seasonings that are in there So that organ part is one of those things that you don't necessarily hear it but you feel it. Like if you take it out It doesn't feel the same. like a certain spice, if you take it out, it doesn't taste the same. And it's not even that you're tasting the spice but you can taste when it's not there. I love music nerds because I'm a music nerd myself And I love when there's things in there that only music nerds would ever hear or appreciate. They are. because I just think it's important. And I think to a casual listener, Like I say, they don't know that it's there they know the way that it makes them feel when they hear it you know, so That's cool. That's awesome. I haven't heard that part broken out like that before either. So that's very cool I'm glad somebody I don't know. Stole it for one of your hard drives or something Yeah, probably so there's a lot of there's a lot of stuff floating around out there. A lot of it we do have, but u But I don't you know, but other people's appreciation of it is different than ours you know, um When you're actually doing it It's a different thing. I mean, to keep the cooking analogy, it's like if you're the chef and you actually make the meal You might enjoy it, you know, but you're not going to have that feeling that somebody who wasn't in the kitchen doing it. you know, because when we produce, we always say we're listening for mistakes, right? And I'm sure a chef is kind of doing the same thing. He's trying to make sure not too much pepper, not too much salt. the right temperature serve it the right way. all those types of things. So Part of the satisfaction is You know, the satisfaction of getting it done But you'll never have that experience of hearing it, you know, for the first time And going back and hearing something like that, that I don't even remember doing it, but I know what I was thinking when I was doing it was I want to hear That's one of those parts that I would hear in the record, even if nobody else did because I always loved that style of playing. And like I say, that for me, that was always slly. I't like the way he played organ. those kinds of inversions and that kind of funk. then not doing it on necessarily an organ, but doing it on an OBA, which is my favorite synthesizer from back in the day. So It's really cool to hear to hear that. it's so cool So I understand the feeling of haaving been so deep in something that it's hard to see the forest for the trees when you try and stand back from it. But you guys are also forty years deep now. in your music careers And I wonder if you're ever if you've ever had the experience of like being at the grocery store And One of your records comes on And you're like Oh yeah Yeah, that is good all the time all the time. I went through a period. it was really interesting too because during COVID the early stages of it That was probably the one place that I did actually go to was the grocery store because, you know, my wife would want to cook or you know, something. and that would be the one place I'd venture out to it would always be early in the morning. I you know, because I could get the they would open up early for seniors, which I loved. So, you know, you could go in early and get your shopping done without, you know, a ton of people around. But yeah, I' always hear something that we did and I still get that same impression when I, you know, I look around And I can't say anything because who cares, right? But I kind of look around and I see other people grooven to it or than in It feels great. Terry and I were just in New York a few days ago. And we walked into a little store just kind of randomly to grab some juice and some stuff. And I can't even remember what song played, Terry. One of our songs played An addudition Oh right, isn it is a look Yeah. . It's the first time I've been in the store in a long time with Terry, and we are able to actually look at each other and acknowledge that, oh yeah, that's ours. That's cool.. So we definitely do feel that way at the grocery store. I hear our stuff all the time. And I love it. I mean, it feels great, feels great Gys, I've taken a lot of your time, but there is one thing that I feel obliged to ask about, which is How did you come to produce a hit record in the mid to late nineteen eighties for hererb Albert Well, her Bbert was really interesting because and the name I'll attach to that story att the very beginning is John McLane John McCain was the person responsible for us working with Janet because he was the ANR person at AnM records in One day gave us a list of names and said, whoo do you want to work with on the roster And we looked at the list of names and we stopped on Janet and we said, we want to do Janet. And so that's how that happened Um But after we had kind of a nice little run of success, I think we had run we had done humuman league it happened after that, after control And we had a nice we've been working pretty much straight from eighty three up through eighty six, eighty seven, just with no brakes whatsoever And I remember Clarence Avon. the Black Goddfather. He said to us You guys need to take a break And we said, what do you mean? And he said, you got to take a break. He said, I don't want you guys to go to the studio And this is before the days of laptops and stuff. so it wasn't like you could do, if you didn't go to the studio, you couldn't get anything done So when he said, you can't go to the studio, we were like Okay. He says you guys got to take two weeks off. said, okay, cool. So I remember the first week was horrendous because Terry would call every day. Now this is before cell phones too, right? So Terry would call on this phone in my house every day and our conversations would be the same How you doing man? Good, man? How you doing? goodood man? What' you up to today Oh, nothing, man just you know, hanging out. man, what are you doing? Oh, man, just hanging out. I mean like literally that would be our Discussion, okay, man, okay, cool And after the first week of that that was kind of, that was tough, right Go into this into the second week We started having a little bit better You know, it was cool. It was like, how you doing, man? Oh good man. Just relaxing, man. Yeahah, it feels good to relax, man. Yeah, you know, cool, cool cool I remember toward the end of the second week We called Clarence and we said Hey, Clarence, can we take another week off? And he said Yeah, absolutely. takeake another week off. because we realized, I think at that point that The world wasn't going to fall apart without us doing something or working on something So that was kind of the setup for it When we finally did go back to work or we were like, okay, now what are we going to do next McCain said Are you guys, when are you guys getting back to work? And we said we're going to get back to work next week. He said, so He said, what about if you guys do a record with herer Alper? And we said, well, what are you thinking? By the way, this is once again, Janet and human league, so he's two for two right now So we said, John, what are you thinking? He said Herb would be great because It would be great to give him a hit record But also there's no pressure because You know, nobody's expecting anything from her. It's not like you're going in with a bunch of expectations. And so He said that'd be a great way to get back into doing your work And we thought, oh yeah, you're right. So yeah And also in our minds, we thought it was also a nice way to say thank you for What he had done for Janet? What he had done for the control album And and also a challenge to try to give him a hit record and we were able to do All of those things and Herb was There is the nicest Dude, I mean, He is so he's so amazing. and that's the reason that even later on besides working on his album And of course, later on doing rhythm Nation and then actually bringing our label perspective records to ANM. and doing sounds of blackness there. It was because of herb, because it wasn't about the business of it, it was about the humanity It was about someone that understood music and the importance of it And I remember when we Sorry to jump around, but I remember when we delivered optimistic to him, he called us And we said He said, hey, he said optimistic. and we said, yeah, man Hey, we were most at it on O the radio man, WBLS has play played us like seventy times and whatever. and he said, I didn't call to hear that ball. He said, I called to just tell you how proud I am that you brought this record to us and that we're associated with this piece of work and We werere like, Oh, Cool, you know and think about it like, we're thinking about it like because everybody was telling us,h, man, youre putting a gospel record out, that's never going to work. That's never going to work And so we figure Herb's calling us to tell us, you know, well, what are you guys doing? you know And he was calling to just talk about his appreciation of it And so The fact that giving him, you know, a couple of big hit records And even as we literally as we speak, we're sitting with the number one song on R andB radio this week with a song called Damage by the artist her. whichich basically is an interpolation of M in Love in the Rain, her aboutper You got it in in a question essing some more than emotionally invested. I'm showing you all my imperfection.