Legal Challenges and Future Outlook

Support for NPR and the following message come from FX's The Low Down. Starring Ethan Hawk, the series follows the hilarious exploits of Lee Rabin, a self proclaimed Tulsa truth storian on a mission to expose the city's hidden rudd , Emi eligible now streaming on Hulu . Bullseye with Jesse Thorne is a production of maximumfund. org and is distributed by NPR . It's Bullseye, I'm Jesse Forne. Knecap, my next guests are an Irish hip hop group. They're based out of Belfast, the city in Northern Ireland that in the late twentieth century bore the brunt of the violence and oppression during the troubles . The three members of Neecap are Mo Kara, Mogli Bop and DJ Provi . Mo and Mogley handle the mic Provi is, as you might have guessed, behind the decks, and he's also a hype man during their shows. Their beats are intense, heavy drums, fat synths, a little bit of prodigy, a little bit of the prodigy. Little bit of peaches, maybe? Take a listen to the single from their latest album Finian . This is Smugglers and scholars. And what about the rhymes? Also very intense. NeeCap's lyrics are direct and in your face, about as political as they come , and very rarely are they delivered in English . They're at the absolute forefront of a movement for Irish people to create and enjoy culture in the Irish language . They're also at the heart of it, three buddies , some of the funniest and most passionate people you will ever meet, I'm so excited to welcome them to bullseye. Here's another track from their latest record and raw List of savages and come a gabb and absorb good 'cause it's all grab only woman you cut into gambling kids line let's ride you said the list of savages and let's come and grab apes all good 'cause absorb grab only woman cutting to gam faire kids lineisha Rock and Breakdy has she walk here . I'm gonna miss the home that she created a class in the school dinner that she sold from the working class it was on a laugh 'cause a lot of Afghanistan BBCP ranks bloody Sunday class fuck as a price of feature per laps like a cars Nec, welcome to Bullseye. It's so nice to have the three of you on the show, and congratulations on your new record. Thanks very much. We're glad to be here. Thank you. Probably , you are wearing a bottle clava in the studio , r ouradio audience can't see it. How long is the longest that you've worn the balaclava in one stretch? Oh , it's probably last weekend I had a mad week BDS . BDS Listening to some Korean music give up . It's probably been a few hours and it's definitely two and a half hour s. Do you move towards performance fabrics over time? Like originally it's inch thick wool and then later on it's it's something wicking. Yeah, there should be a progression into that you know like find out what daff punk used to do with their helmets and get some kind of lining that's got a cool down system like a refrigeration system. But no, it's just the same old one that I had from the start. Still is warm, it's still is sweaty. You can imagine how it smells after a tour. I can only imagine . You guys are in an Irish language radio station in Belfast right now, right? Readyodiofalcheck . one hundred seven point one. That was the station that your management requested we set you up in or recommended we set you up in. What's your relationship to it? father, my dad, he would have been involved with the foundation of the radio station along with a lot of other people in the community . This started actually what year that Rodio Fox just started, but it started off I think it started a pirate radio station originally without a license . And allegedly, allegedly. This kind of Irish language community was growing , the radio was another extension of the of the community here. It was also we had a cultural center in the Cultano that was established and the school s were common. There's more people speak in Erish. So that was kind of the connection we had here and me and Makara actually had we had her on radio station in here our radio show, a radio show sign our own station and pirate pirate . But we had our own radio show here in Audio Falcia before pre kneecap and definitely contributed to our foundational kneecap. So that was a connection. My mother also work ed here and everybody, if you speak Erish, everybody has a program here in Radio Falcia, it's the Rollins . It was like a route half an hour at least once. Yeah. Provie had a video show here as well. Yeah, it was called in Rave Lodge, the Revolution. There was nothing really revolutionary about it, but sounded cool as a name . When you guys were kids did the like community around Irish speaking seem cool or seem corny and annoying because it was your parents and community centers ? I grew up speaking Irish. I'd say it was a bit I mean you don't want to stand out too much when you're twelve years old or thirteen years old. So you kind of there wasn't as many speakers I think as there is now I think back when I mean it didn't grow up that long ago but, affected the think I ther Aish language community has grown exponentially in the last ten years, twenty years. So I think that in the last twelve, you know, the thing about the Arish language like it wasn't it was still grown and it wasn't seen like in contemporary spaces, it wasn't seen in cinema or on the radio or in the BBC. So when you're a teenager and you're not seeing it in these places that you aspire to or look up to or not in mainstream media, you kind of feel like maybe this is a bit odd. Mbeay you know they don't they're not worthy the Irish language isn't worthy to be any spaces. But I think now we've seen like seeing our movie came out this cinema and before our movie there was an Culling Kun,e which actually I think they made it to the Oscars . And there's a lot more musicians like using the Irish language and it's seen a lot more. So I feel like if you're an Irish speaker or a young Irish speaker that you feel a lot more seen now and yes, it's a lot more. I think there is more attraction to it now for young people. Yeah, I think definitely growing up because it had such a punk ethos ethos to it, you know, that, you know, it was never funded by the state. It was all very, you know, grassroots and everybody, you know, we all realized well, not us, but you know the community that we're from realized that the state wasn't going to do anything for you of their own will . So people kind of just built things themselves, radio stations, houses, g eal tucks and to me it no matter how young I was I always thought that was pretty cool They're backstressed at over achievers st,op to the sofa dude, etching and nobody got my fever . My stepmother is of your parents' generation and grew up in West Belfast. And when she talks about speaking Irish, it's usually about getting shipped off in the summer to Dunny College . Going to Lake , I mean, obviously, I'm very American, but going to like Irish themed summer camp where she was conscripted into like speaking Irish and playing Benny Whistles . You know what I mean? That's why American terms here. Yeah, described Disneyland described on the muscles . Like I choose that language advisedly because on the one hand, like this was so central to her cultural identity. You know, that's the reason that they were doing it. And it was also exciting to her to go to one of the most beautiful places in the world and get to go anywhere because she had a lot of siblings and only one parent . But also there was an element, at least in her retelling of kind of eye roll of like, I get it, you know, we're all going to go play tin whistles and sing traditional songs and be forced to speak Irish, you know, to prove how Irish we are . You guys are from the generation after that, you're from her generation's kids . How is it different for people your age who grew up in a situation where they may have been speaking Irish in school in the north of Ireland ? For example , I think a big part of it was, you know, there was the Irish school that we went to, it's the biggest Irish school in the whole country. And there was more and more people kind of enrolling in the school every year . But for some reason it wasn't really developing socially as quickly as pupils were going through the school. So they realized there was a real lack of kind of, you know, the language wasn't being seen in any kind of mainstream scenarios or, you know, socially too often. So obviously they started a lot of youth clubs and kids had somewhere to go to use the language informally and it wasn't just in a classroom. So you had that, there was a big push on youth clubs and kind of socializing rather than the language just being, you know, constrained to a classroom and then also you have like as he said Kine Kun, you have like people like us and other kind of bands and stuff in Ireland that are using the language. So now people can kind of be like I relate to that band. They're using my native language, you know, and it's a lot more seen and a lot more visible now. So I think that's had a big effect on normalizing the stigma of speaking Irish because I think with any colonial language, there's this sort of colonial shame that is that is left with the language and culture because for eight hundred years , you're told that it's worthless. So I think now that's kind of changed and people are seeing, you know, the intrinsic value to having your own language and it being seen and you feel unrepresented. after Frankina, had taken to stop on us. So Ray Leg Mahila are watering their neighborhood . Darns and air than a game Kind of Dania Lower the Changing must split and wildlife and kind of infrastructure social dev iant Especially one of the cleanest afternoon here in the real cleaning yet paint What gave you the sort of temerity to think of yourselves as rappers? At one point in your life . I don't know what went it's a good place. It's a good place. I still I still don't feel it still feels weird saying the rapper. I think we're too Irish. I think the thing with pop is it's like it's so in its core. It's like it's very different to maybe Irish culture because you know, hip hop is very braggatoscious, you know, about being the best. We're in Ireland we're extremely self deprecating and shy nine times out of ten . But it does have quite a lot of similarities as I say with a storytelling and it's the very, you know, intrinsically anti authoritarian and stuff. So there is similarities but I don't know what cheek we thought to call ourselves rappers is ridiculous. So we love the I wouldn't try again. We love talking and we love town st ories and hip pop is the best genre. So we only find a genre that we can keep talking in town stories and that was Hip Pop. Hip Poppers . We're going to take a quick break when we return we will wrap up with the Irish Wrap group kneecap. Keep it locked. It's bullty from maximumfund. org and NPR This message comes from Progressive Insurance. 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Welcome back to Bullsy. I'm Jessie Fore. My guests are the Irish rap trio Neecap , Mokara, Mogley Bop , and DJ Provi . Their newest album Finian was just released last month. Like all of Necap's music, it is fun, fierce, and aggressively revolutionary . The gang joined me from Radio Falcia, the Irish language radio station in Belfast in the north of Ireland. Let's get back into our conversation. When you wrote your first versus like whatever alone in your bedroom or at lunch in school in a notebook, did you write in English or in Irish ? The first song was Irish. Yeah, well, I mean, I would have rolled we bit in primary school, but I forgot all about that. Do you have any remembered? I'm not prepared, I'm not prepared. I would have I forgot all about this until basically someone asked me when like on the interviews when did they start I and then I kind of rem embered obviously in primary school me and a few other lads would have been but obviously it wasn't too serious. It was ten years of age. But so when we when we decided to do Neecap, obviously, because we speak Irish together , all of our friends speak Irish and that's just how we socialize wasn.' It t like a big conscious decision to start doing it in the Irish language. It's just when we decided to do kneecap, it was just that was organically going to be in Irish because that's how we socialize. So yeah, we did. It was in the attic, stoned out and yeah, it was one of them ones that hadn't really been. There was a few people like Seamas Barra and stuff who were doing it in Irish, but I feel like yeah I think hip hop especially it's something in the Irish language it can be almost taken as partly, you know? So we were trying to do that fine line of making sure it was, you know , you know, kind of authentic to Belfast, but also not taking it too seriously because people can see right through that. Do you know what I mean? And it wasn't wasn't who we are. You got to take yourself serious but not too serious. It's a very fine name . How do you think the culture of Irish speaking was different in a like a pub in Belfast in the city than it was in a you know on a gray rocky crag overlooking the ocean in Dunningal . It was nearly non existent for a while, you know, like back in the day it was It wasn't that much spoken in urban settings. You know, it wasn't really spoken in the pubs around Belfast because that kind of that lineage that kind of generational break happened in people being able to learn it, you know, and so there was only certain places you could learn it. And people were going through the middle of the troubles at the time. And like when people are kind of hung up with trying to survival, they're just they're looking after kind of survival first. You know, in language and culture kind of takes a back seat unfortunately, but I think it was seen then as well as a method of resistance, you know, people being able to use the language kind of write, you know what? This is our culture and this is this is a way a nonviolent way that we can kind of reassert ourselves and reclaim who we are. So yeah, it's probably and a lot of those people went to that rocky place to learn the Irish. You know, the people used to go to the well and the well was Donnie Gall. It was Connamara, it was the Islands. And that's where people went and learned the language and brought it back and taught it to the people in the urban settings and in those publics. Now that's why you can walk around Belfast, you can walk around Derry, Dublin and hear people spe akr andish I a lot more than it would have been . As people from the generation that grew up in the aftermath of the peace agreement , what was your relationship to the troubles that had happened, you know , that were at their hottest in the years before you were born ? I mean, it was obviously there was no it's not like we grew up with the physical oppression of soldiers. Well, me maybe that's our lad beside me can remember them. But we like we didn't grow up with that. Obviously, what you did have was the kind of the kind of vacuum there of like, you know whatever the trauma that certain like family members or whatever went through that like, you know, if we were going into the city center or whatever, it was kind of like it was always like, you know, be careful or whatever. Even though it wasn't too bad, of course there was still some political and sectarian violence happening, but again, we missed most of that. There was obviously different issues. We grew up, obviously big suicide issues, mental health issues and stuff that naturally occur after , you know, post conflict , you know, so that was a different kind of war that was on for our generation Walk at a time when I'm walking around and the water gets an obsession of the horn never heard that said before. We hate to see a culturation shenov had mostly been lying in bed before Scholars and scholars can go for an American dollars did it before that again nobody don't need our help with a tournament. I loved watching your movie kneecap from a couple years ago . And which is a sort of like biopic in the way that it has a little bit of purple rain and a little bit of spice world. Like it's a little bit silly . Like everything happens, you know what I mean? Like everything is on screen all at once. It's such a great time . The director of the film was living in Belfast, but is English . What did you have to get to to trust an English guy to tell your story that is so much about Irishness? We're obviously very apprehensive whenever there's English people involved trying to try to try to profit off us. So we like to think that we have our guards up, but I think he just bought us a paint a painted ginisch that was we were ignored him. How we did ignore him for for a while because it was twenty nineteen when he emailed us first and we were only a band for two years. So we're very skeptical somebody who wants to make a movie. We hadn't even really got our first album out at that point . So it didn't really make sense. But yeah, he said he bought us a few lovesy pens of beamish stout. And they started writing on the script then and he was a man for it . I mean, I heard him talk about it. And he was just like, I randomly went to this thing at a bar down the street from my house and it was so great. I thought it should be a movie . So you actually went and got his Irish passport after that as well. Yeah, I worked actually it was to his advantage. He thought he was that he was English. For the first time ever I, it was to his own advantage because he was looking from the outside and he wasn't come with any predetermined ideas of what Irish language should be or Irish culture. So in that regard he listened to us and what we what way we wanted to express our own identity and our own language so that actually worked out very well . One of the big differences between this movie and like Purple Rain is that you guys are good at acting . No shade to print one of the greatest popular musicians of all time in that movie which rules , but he's not the strongest screen performer when he's not singing . And I wonder if you guys were scared to act on screen, even in playing yourself? There was the element there I think once I think there was that element there of the music like trajectory of where we were going musically was going well, you know, it wasn't like we were, you know, kind of on the way down that we needed to, you know, take this big risk to kind of so we were doing very well and this movie opportunity came along and it was a huge risk because if it was or if we couldn't act we'd be known for like it sustained forever as that band that made that movie at one time. So obviously there was that kind of there was that pressure there but I think like obviously you have to take risk not to interrupt but like it's a type of movie where most of those movies are bad. In general, I don't think I can't think of many good ones. It ruined the Beatles career . Yeah, I think the only saving grace for people's biopics is that they're normally dead and don't get to see how shock they are . Yeah, so it was it was a strange one but obviously we did. We had acting classes with Kirein Lagan sh,out out by Kirin Lagon. Kears absolute legend. So we went and we did that for a while and obviously that helped big time, you know . Were there moments in the film that you were scared you were going to not just like do a bad job representing the band because I'm sure by the time the movie was going on to film you felt pretty good about the script and stuff, but just worried that you would embarrass yourself as a doing something that is not the main thing you do. No, it was grand. It wasn't like I didn't there was a bit of pressure, I think at the start, but see once the first like the first scene was the one of us digging out the back. We filmed that in Dundock. That was the very first scene. What happened was like, you know, we were on the health the healthy buzz for around two months. We didn't have a drink. We were training most days, you know, trying to look healthy for the screen. And then the production company put us up in a big hotel the night before with a free bar and obviously so we did so well and then we just felt the last hurdle. We were so hung over on the first day of filming big puffy eyes that was that was our first mistake of filming and then but the thing was on that first scene as well I, think because, nobody had ever seen us act. You had the whole production team like costume. Absolutely everybody was there about seventy or eighty people watching our first scene to be like are we in for seven weeks of hell? Here is this going to be or is it going to be alright? So I think we luckily very hung over but won them over . Yeah, and very luckily for us as well. I don't want to give away any industry secrets, but it's not real. It's in the edits, you know, so like if we do something, we can do it again. It's not like real life. It's not like it's not like song again. You say song is stupid and it's recorded forever forever. Everybody one of the moments in the film that you guys made about your own lives that I enjoyed the most is at the top of the movie . There is a montage of you guys going to psychiatrists and getting prescriptions by describing intergenerational traumas . Our history. Our history has become our biology . It's like the trauma our ancestors suffered has inserted itself as inserted itself into post traumatic stress disorder, psychological reverberations reverberations, reverberations , any hDHD , O D the troubles , the troubles . I've got troubles I just pray that this medicine grants me some relief. Do you not think I'd be better off going straight in with the five hundred milligrams? It's great. It's a hoot . And there is like a certain currency to having a Trump card to play of intergenerational trauma, right? Like you can just be like, well, yeah, but intergenerational trauma, you can't say anything about that. I'm a victim. On the other hand, like intergenerational trauma is like a really real thing . I grew up in a house where my American father and my Irish stepmother bonded together by their post traumatic stress disorder, I think , you know ? You guys grew up in a city where the generations before you were bonded together by traumas that they experienced for decades . How did that touch your life besides a sort of besides, you know, helping color your ideological commitment to speaking Irish and being Irish I mean scene from that movie is obviously it's a it's us you know it's a lot of what we do is we have extreme versions or extreme scenarios that we play out in order you know to create dialogue for something . Like, I mean, we are one of the most prescribed areas in the United Kingdom, quote unquote. And that obviously comes from, you know, post conflict, you know, from the troubles and stuff. It's very easy for people to get prescription meds here and it is a massive issue here. It obviously has lashing a lot of mental health issues from people misusing them . So that's obviously why we put that in. And that is obviously a big part of what happens post conflict. You know, there's that vacuum there, as I said, that yes, there was no physical British soldiers on the streets growing up, but there was that different kind of silent killer there. Do you know what I mean? So that's something obviously we like to, you know, obviously we're maybe on paper not too serious as people, but I think through art and stuff it's important to kind of make do certain exaggerations. You see South Park and stuff do it all the time because it creates dialogue. Dialogue is important to tackle these issues and stuff. So that's obviously what we like to do. I think obviously when we're running around masks and stuff on our faces and stuff. So take a bit of a pinch of salt. But we think that it's important now that we friendly, you know , our generation is able to kind of because we weren't touched physically, you know, by the war . It means we can kind of step back and we can, you know, build bridges through humor and through dialogue and stuff that maybe the generation before us never necessarily had. We'll be back in just a second. It's bullseye from maximum fund. org and NPR . Support for NPR and the following message come from FX's love story, starring Sarah Pigeon and Paul Anthony Kelly in what Variety calls a stunning portrait of . L Thisove critically acclaim imed lited series explores the undeniable chemistry and whirlwind marriage of John F. Kennedy Jr. and Carolyn Bassett. Featuring an incredible cast, including Naomi Watts and Constant Zimmer, Love Story is Amy eligible in all categories. Stream it now on Hulu or via Disney plus for bundle subscribers. 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Do you remember the trend of everyone whacking themselves on the head with hammers and mallets when they wanted to lose weight? And LT John's lobberly songs. I'm here today with kicky dee Hello Kicky Dee Hello Elton . There's dozens of episodes to catch up on and brand new episodes going out right now. So if you want far, far, far too many podcasts, then look for soundteep on maximum fun . Boop boop . It's Bullseye, I'm Jesse Thorne. I'm talking with the Irish rap trio kneecap . How much pause did you have to make this record? I think it was seven weeks or so well together . Roughly around seven weeks. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't a short break. During that seven week we were in Stratham and London, Stratton . And we had the Court case of Macara during them seven weeks. And we also had a gig in Weemley Arena . So we had a pause and we had the unpause at the same time. Yeah, I think a lot of bands are kind of get the luxury of maybe you know having all the things wrote over time and then they go and they can spend two months in a nice studio and kind of like lock the doors, lower the blinds and go on and enjoyedselves our. You know what I mean? And have a kiik and get it all done. But like we were unfortunate like fortunately and unfortunately obviously dried the court and then also with a big shower in the Weimbley Arena, which obviously were two hindrances, but at the same time they were obviously big inspirations for certain songs. And then Dan Carrey, the producer, he went to the Wembley Arena show and he was in the middle of the crowd and he was able to listen to what are the sounds that are going to fill arenas on this album? You know, what's the kind of instruments or whatever it was? So these two things that were on paper a hindrance also added quite a bit to the process. He sampled the crowd. Yeah, and then outside the court case and stuff, obviously the crowd chanting free macara makes it onto Carnival and stuff. So it was yeah, it was a hindrance of course, but we didn't let it go completely to waste. Mocha , you stand before us in Westminster Magistrate's Court charged under the terrorism act of two thousand . How do you please? Yes, Yandak Watching while you're running running a surprise slander. Esporting a purchase name burger they can try slander on you of high standards. Name Michelle Kenbera Nux ious summer shall I be on trial and trumpet price and charges that started in coop, shall I? Fellow free fallacy fellow Subla Hallajin this stuff is about to tell you if we guys and these others just nasty sentences of good guys the pucky responders Makara, what was the court case that you were facing for folks who don't know? Yeah, again it's all out there, so I think I'm not going to talk about too much of it, but obviously it was terrorism related charges . But I'm not going to go into the ins and outs of it because my lawyer hasn't had a good night's sleep at say in about a year and a half and the case was thrown out and the case was thrown out and exactly and it's all there. We've learned statements and stuff about it if you if you need any quotes, I'm sure you can grab there or we can point you in the direction or something maybe . It was the sort of case that's hard to imagine from the United States where the right to free speech is in the Constitution but I think that one of the things that it showed me that this was a case even under UK law, I think was a little ridiculous , and as you said, was eventually thrown out , but there is an extraordinary burden to being the target of the power of the state . Even if the courts are going to protect you, like even if you win in the end. Yeah, it was it was a bit ridiculous. Like, as we said, it was a carnival of distraction to what's actually going on. They spent, I believe, over a million pounds. It's all taxpayers' money. I don't think they ever thought that they were going to win it. We knew that there was no chance of them winning. It was such a trumped up charge, such a ridiculous , you know , like you know, that's more controversial what a band does on stage, taken out of context by the way, to what you know,, prime ministers or, you know, the Israeli lobby do day to day, you know, so it was it was a bit it was a bit it was a witch hunt, obviously. They used us as an example. I don't think it was even personal. I think it was just right time, right place for them to kind of use us as an example for any kind of artist or actor or whoever it was who was potentially on the fence about speaking up about Palestine would obviously see this and what they threw at this and you know, we'll kind of be like maybe for my own well being, I'll leave this off and that was intentional. You know, it was all by design why they did that. But again, I'm very grateful for everybody that was involved and that came out to , you know, I'd say the courts and stuff and all the support we got online and also obviously that the team of lawyers we had were just incredible. So it was amazing everyone, you know, that helped obviously and we're glad it's over, but we didn't we didn't see any other result, you know . There must be so much joy in making anti colonial music and getting to travel the world and connect with people who are so different from you , but share this kind of need to express anti colonialism and feel free of the burden of colonialism . Yeah, I mean we got to go to meet loads of people all around the world and we're with Miss Canina, supporters in Australia who's Tasmania Tasmania from Aboriginal Australia. That's I think with the movie and the music and the movie, especially we thought the story of Neecap was a story of Belfast or a story of the Irish language. We didn't think anybody outside of Belfast or Ardinth would have like resonated with them or would have heard about the movie. But we soon realized as I was mentioned earlier, the story of colonization is an international story and that's something that connects us with people and something that we hope to develop in and build a connection and solidarity of people around the world . Do you think that you'll be in kneecap for the rest of your lives? What did I do in a past life to deserve this? Neat cubs like the hotel California. So they tender. It's a lobster pot, that's good. You can check out anything you want, but you can never leave.