Working with Nicholas Cage and Hugh Jackman

This message comes from NPR sponsor Carvana. Carvana believes selling your car should be easy. Get a real offer down to the penny, picked up from your driveway. You may keep waiting for a catch, there isn't one. Sell today at cararvana d. comot pickup fees may apply Bullseye with Jesse Thorne is a production of maximumfund. org and is distributed by NPR. It's Bllsseye I'm Jse F. There's a new movie coming out called The Death of Robinhood. And you don't have to read much into the title to know what it's about Robin Hood is played by Hugh Aackman brilliantly. And the legendary folk hero Kind of getting up there in age. He's tired. His beard is long and gray He looks almost like God in a far side comic The decades of running, fighting, being beaten and slashed have taken their tolls Robin Badly hurt ends up in a priorory. A small community run by a nun And there He confronts his legacy He thinks about the lives he's taken The lives he's ruined the wake of violence and blood feuds that trails behind him And he reaches a pretty reasonable conclusion Robin Hood, Robin of Nottingham. was not a good guy So here in the Priory Staring death in the face How does he reckon with that The death of Robin Hood is not about prancing and shooting arrows alternates between brutal violence and meditative, almost serene thoughtfulness It's written and directed by my guest, Michael Sarnosski Sarnosky is also responsible for the movies's pig A quiet place day one So glad to talk to Sarnoosky about the movie. Let's get into it. Michael, welcome to Volseye. I am so happy to have you on the show. Thank you so much. I'm honored to be here. Did you get the idea for this film because you were just hanging out reading the lyrics of fifteenth century songs or whatever? Yeah, it's just what I do to unwind kind of. So ye, that's pretty much now mostly it came from L. O, an SR and F, I don't know U No, it was just from watching the animated Disney Romin. That was where that love started But the poems helped too. How did you discover the breadth of the story of Robin H Yeah, I think it was sort of one of those. It was at a perfect time in my life where I loved the Disney animated Robinood movie as a kid. Like I would watch it with my dad. and the full story is that when my dad passed away our neighbor who kind of became this like mentor or father figure to me, gave me a copy of his childhood school book, Robin book. And it had all the old stories in it, like the finale of it being the Death of Robinhood story And I think there was something about Being a child, losing a parent having seen the sort of childish version of Robinhood and then being exposed to the sort of more mature version of not just the mature version, but like The idea that this folk hero could die, that that was like part of his story. When you think of him as this just kind of immortal Dancing Fox. And then I think having to like grapple with that as a kid at a really formative moment kind of stuck with me. and then I was just like always fascinated by that Death of Robinhood story And this was just kind of the result of thirty years of thinking about that What is the story as it exists in folklore and on paper? Yeah, the classic story is Robin goes to this priory because he's sick or injured and he asks the priorress to take care of him to Blood let him, that was like a medical technique back then Turns out she's an evil press who's up to no good. blood lets him to death. And then the part of the story that everyone kind of knows is, I mean, not everyone, but some people know is littleittle John comes to see Robin as he's on his deathbed and Robin says, give me my bow and he shoots his arrow out the window and he says wherever it lands, that's where you're going to bury me. So there's a lot of lore around that. People say his you know, his grave is over there by Kirkless Priory and all that. But yeah, that's that's the very basic idea of it. And then this story kind of takes its own spin on it mostly based on the idea that What if the Priorress wasn't this evil lady and what if Robin wasn't the good guy? and what if their relationship was a little more complicated and had more history and nuance to it? Bea I always thought it was a little simplistic like, you know, she's the bad evil nun and he's the goodly Robin And like I feel like the times back then were a little more complicated than that I've been playing a video game Ghost of Yot. I'm currently I'm on the final mission of it right now. Okay, well, no spoilers please. Yes. Well maybe two thirds through, not to brag. It's so beautiful. It's very beautiful and it's very hard to block But I'm in playing this game ghost of Yote ve been thinking about how in so many Violence oriented stories which I often enjoy There is this. Payil of death that follows the protagonist wouldn' possibly be worth it. Yeah. Like there's no world. I just think like I'm supposed to be avenging the death of my parents in this video game or my character, my guy as my lady and I just killed een guys just who are standing on the side of the road I mean, that's where a lot of the Robin stuff came from was that sort of cycle of violence and like the endless string of blood deaths that come from that of You know, the movie kind of Early on, you meet it's like, you know, everyone Robin meets is like, you killed my grandfather twenty years ago and I've been hunting you my entire life. And like now I found like it's just this kind of non stop blood debt thing, which is why at the beginning of the movie, Robin's kind of like moved out to the mountains in sort of the Celtic fringe and he's just like, I got to get away from this world and just You know, if someone wants to find me and kill me, good for them, but like I just can't deal with this anymore. It's just endless violence. So yeah, that is the feeling of like Robin was not necessarily a good guy Part of it's also just that he was a medieval bandit. like he He was up to some stuff and killed a lot of people and every single one of them now has some generational blood dead against him that they're trying to trying to take revenge for and he's just kind of over it. And then at the same time, he kind of is like ready to die? like he's outlived his time.'s, you know, the stories are being told about him and he's waiting for that right death to find him Did you not want to have Prancing. And F I mean, I love the prancing and fun. but it didn't quite fit this version of the character. think I think this idea of like what, you know, the sort of intensity and bleakness of the world that he's in didn't seem like it was appropriate there. I think also We wanted as you go to the priory like a third of the way through the movie, we end up at this priory and meet Jodody Comer's Priress. and we wanted that to feel the light airy soulful part of the movie where're suddenly like we're seeing a warmth in a side of this world that we hadn't seen before And I think to set that up, we needed to really drive home the violence and bleakness of the early part of the film and really believe in Oh man, like this is not a world for the faint of heart, so that when we get to this community, it's like, wow, there's a community where people take care of each other and take care of lepers and orphans and care for each other and show the importance of connection and care. And so like for that to sort of sell we needed to really hit how upsetting the violence was early on. It's even in how we shot the action. It's like it's not meant to be Fun choreographed action. It's messy climbing around in the mud, like you watch it and it feels kind of unpleasant and it should How do you decide how unpleasant it can be first you just see how unpleasant you can make it and then see if you're going too far. And we never really felt like we were going too far. It was usually like we want to believe that these are just some old men trying so hard to kill each other There was I was listening to a series of lectures on medieval English history. And there was a great quote from the professor saying People think of medieval battles as knights in shining armor riding around on horses when Most of the time it was peasants beating each other to death with shovels in the mud. And I was like, that's the version of this world that I want to capture So we really Figuring out how to like convey that, it's trickier than it seems because you know, these scenes still have to be choreographed. You have to figure out every single punch and every single move and how you're going to pull it off with practical effects. And if you need VFX to help with anything, like a knife blade. and so you have to design these things, but to keep the sense of sloppiness and roughness and you know, these aren't likeike ninjas jumping around doing crazy tricks. These are just people, like trying every little tool they have at their disposal to kill someone Peeling that away and figuring out how to get down to the basics was a huge part of the prep process. You shot the film primarily in Ireland, including Northern Ireland, right? Yes Had you been there before first time I went was This would be like two Septers ago now for the Sout. and that was the first time I went out there. we went out for three days and we're just like, this is the perfect place to shoot this movie. And then I just moved out there and lived there for a year, almost, a little over eleven months because we prepped it there, shot it for thirty days. And then I lived out there for like another six months editing at this post facility called the Yellow Moon, which is just east of Belfast in this charming little town. Weirdly called Hollywood When you were spending time in Ireland, what were you looking at? I mean all sorts of things. like the scouts, so the film scene in Ireland, a lot of it was built around Game of Thrones. So like they have tons of epic locations. I mean, they shot Kight of the Seven Kingdoms just recently out there. So step one was doing a ton of location scouting. And the great thing about Belfast is that Within an hour north or south, you can be in like the bleak morns and these like barren mountains or you can go up to the North coast and see these gorgeous coastal environments. and because a lot of our movie kind of takes place on this coastal island We needed a lot of that There's gorgeous forests, there's amazing like old castles and churches. So a lot of it was just driving around a ton and like finding these places that we could sort of connect into this one world that felt organic and real Um, and that was that was like most of the battle was just being like, oh, I I believe in this place and like I could see this world coming together We have so much more to get into. stay with us It's Bullllseye from maximum fund. org and NPR This message comes from Kachava. It can be tough to stick to your wellness routine, especially when you're on the go. Koachava's new travel packs make it easier. Just one packet provides nutrition ready for wherever life takes you with protein, fiber, grains, probiotics, electrolytes, and more. Take your daily ritual with you. Go to kachava dot com d and use code in PR New customers get fifteen percent off their first order. That's kachaVa. com code in PR This message comes from Wealthfront It's time your hard earned money works harder for you. With Wealthfront's cash account, you earn a competitive APY on your cash from program banks higher than the average savings rate with free instant withdrawals to eligible accounts. Go to wealthfront dot comot cash account offered by Wealthfront Brokerage LC, member FinRA SIPC not a bank Funds are swept to programed banks where they earn the variable annual percentage yield NPR's tiny desk can't come to you. I mean, it's a desk, but the tiny desk contest tour can. New York City join NPR's Tiny Desk contest winner, Cure for Paranoia at Warsaw this july ninth. It's all the NPR Tiny Desk energy minus the office furniture Get your tickets now at tinydesktour. org elcome back to Bllse eye I'm Jse Thorne I'm talking with Michael Sarnoossky. Sarnovky is a writer and director. His debut feature was pig. It starred Nicholas Cage as a truffle hunter and earned a best screenplay honor at the Independent Spirit Awards in twenty twenty one. His newest movie is called The Death of Robinhood It stars Hugh Jackman and Jodody Comer You can catch it in theaters now. Let's get back into my conversation with Michael Sarnossky You shot the film on film on thirty five Millimeter. Yeah, this was my first time shooting on film Pat Skoloa with the cinematographer he shot. big and quiet place so all my movies I've done with him. And we've always wanted to shoot on film. I think our shooting style lndens to film really well, but this was the first time we made it happen and I don't know if I'll ever be able to go back. It was amazing like capturing these, especially Be in these real locations with these natural environments, capturing that on film and really feeling like you're there and you're capturing that light was amazing I loved it. And it also just Pat and I have a certain way of shooting likeike we shotlist a ton And then on the day, we usually shoot single camera We don't do a lot of takes. We're very particular about our setup. So we already kind of shoot as if we were shooting on film But it just kind of felt like the whole crew was like on the same page with us. Like when that film starts going, everyone's just kind of like hushed and I don't know, like creates this kind of sacred moment that I just loved. When you say that you're mostly shooting single shot, you're making careful shot lists What you mean, correct me if I'm wrong for people who aren't film people is that you are because of the limitations and expensive films You are required to prioritize every moment that you put into the camera Yeah, I mean, that's the reason for it with film. We had always done that with digital just usually it was a time thing. It was that we want to know exactly what we're getting. We're not going to do what you would call coverage, which is, you know, we're going to do a medium a close up, get all the angles that we could possibly need and then figure it out in the edit. L that's not really how we have ever approached things. Like we're like, okay, we know we're going to be using this shop for this We don't need to get a close up on this. We don't like we're very just Here's how we're going to construct the scene, H's what we're going to come in on. Here's what we're going to leave on. You know, when you get into thatit, you make discoveries and change things, but like, We don't just like kind of hose down coverage for the sake of it. And that just came from, you know, pig we shot in twenty days Quiet place was forty days, then this was thirty days. we're kind of used to working on pretty those are pretty tight schedules for for movies of that size So so yeah, it was really a time issue then it just extends into the kind of cost issue of like, you don't want to just be burning film for the sake of it. When you shoot in a digital camera in twenty twenty six, The camera is pulling in so much information Yeah that you get an image that can be changed really in really dramatic ways once it's inside the camera, like after it's inside the camera When you shoot on film you know, you can put it into a computer or put it through effects afterwards, but like, In general, you're getting that information that's on the film. Yeah. you know, in some ways, it's a little more limited. I mean, for a while film had more dynamic range. now digitals, it's, you know, it's crazy what it can get. didn't scare us because Pat is really precise about how he lightes. L he's not someone who is like, okay, we'll figure this out in color and like we'll figure out how we're going to balance all this. He lights in a very painterly specific way. So he very much is like, we want the sensor to be picking up what I want it to look like So already we were kind of ahead on that and, you know he wants to like capture this. He doesn't want to capture and then have to work it and all that. So that was exciting to us. was like, no, what you see is what you get. And of course you still go through and tweak colors and like, you know make things pop in certain ways But like that wasn't scary to us, the kind of being a little more locked into that. And also that's part of the fun is like there's certain imperfections or certain You know, you have to you have to know that like you're you're kind of taking some risks and you're going to make some decisions that are going to get baked in But that's kind of fun You're a guy who's still in his thirties. Yeah Why do you think you've made films that are so much about Grt And Yeah, death on it. Yeah I mean, I think a lot of reasons, I think And this is something I'm sort of coming to. this wasn't like an intention, but I think a lot of my movies are about people that feel stuck. They feel like their opportunity for change has been used up. like they are clusive, they' sort of like, okay, I had my chance at life, I did my thing Now The regret comes from like, you know, something happened. All my growing is done for And then they sort of have an unlikely journe that they go on that's usually involving connecting to other people and growing with a deeper understanding of themselves and the people around them you know, I think in a general sense, you could like find that in all of those movies So I think the regret kind of like comes from that starting place of feeling like, okay, I'm I don't have a chance at improving my lot in life And you know, we all feel that in like tiny little ways of just day to day things or really big deep emotional things. So I think that's where that comes from is just I like to examine people in their sort of darkest places where they feel like there's no hope and do justice to that. like really don't shy away from that darkness. like with Robin We show the horrible violence of his life then show that there is some way through that. It might be complicated. It might not be exactly what you think it'll be there's some way through that I mean, I think also when you're a creative person of any kind Also a not creative person process of becoming an adult and growing older is a process of acceptance of possibility floating away. you know, it might be being replaced by accomplishment even or skill growth or nurturing other lives through parenthood, you know, there's all these other things, right? But As the sands of time drift through your fingers, you're also losing the possibilities of the future Yeah. I mean, I also just think about death a lot too. like that I gave the optimistic answer, but yeah, I mean, we're all constantly aware of sort of the trade offffs we make as we get older and as it feels like everything's falling apart a little bit and it doesn't help. and like yeah, just I'm definitely feeling that in My knees will tell you that I'm feeling that Ancient man in my late thirties old were you when your father died? I was nine nine. He died in a car accident when I was nine on the way back from a camping trip. He was a very outdoorsy. guy, which I think also had to do with our love of Robinhood a little bit How Did you see the rest of your family processing that That was a big inspiration for Pig actually was I think you sort of understand that at different phases of your life. Like, you know, the initial thing is there's all these Figure out what life means and how you're going to deal with being You know, from my mom's perspective, a single parent and all of that, there's so many things to go through. I think for me, the biggest thing at that age was It felt like life was a little bit of a dream. It put me in a little bit of like a third person perspective on my own life for like a long time And I don't think that ever like one hundred percent wore off. I think I just sort of integrated that into how I interacted with the world which was, you know, already as sort of like an anxious inward kind of kid I think that definitely kind of built my mindset for better or worse. I think the for better side was I think it helped me with my storytelling, it helped me like, tryry and sort of understand the rules of a world that felt very strange to me to me when I'm crafting worlds like that and crafting the rules of my narrative worlds But I think I saw my mom and my sister, I have one sister. I think I saw them all deal with it in different ways, especially in the long erm And that's what piggy came about. was about these three guys that are each dealing with a loss and of sort of like how they built their worldviews around that in the long run. And that came from me being in my late twenties And sort of seeing, oh, twenty years later This is what this did to us and how we interact with people and like, you know some of us have closed ourselves off. some of us have, you know take an agency like too much. So I mean, all the characters kind of take things I saw in my family push them to the max. so one character is kind of bit of a sadist where it's like, okay, I need to control the world around me and have power so that things can't hurt me again. Another character is kind of like, okay, I need to like give my power to society and to the people around me so that without having that I can kind of be taken care of in some way and I won't lose anything if I'm sort of deferential to the world around me. and then Rob's character is kind of this soleopsistic nihilist who's like, why I just won't connect to anything and then I won't be hurt again. So I think I saw all of like that intensive versions within my family, but I saw all of those sorts of reactions in the long run because I think that's You know, there's grieving and then there's how you compensate for that and how you rebuild your worldview around that grief. And that's what Pig was kind of about for me. I mean, I struggle to imagine the meaning making that a nine year old can do about learn losing a parent. Yeah. and that's why, you know, it wasn't until my late twenties where I could sort of step back and be like, oh, this is what this did to me in like a larger sense and how it's affected my belief in myself, my ability to connect to other people, my ability to sort of imagine the worlds of other people in my own world. and how I relate to those things Yeah, I think as a nine year old, I think You know, I wasn't intellectualizing that at all. I was just like, this feels weird. I don't get what's going on And then you kind of figure it out later on whether that screwed you up or helped you or opened up your mind or closed you off in other ways And I think it did all of those things I mean, a couple of the ways of being in the world that you described from the characters from PIG are very directoryory impulses Yeah. Like I don't know how well the nihilism feeds into being a director, but certainly to some extent, being a director is a combination of like giving your power to other people and also hoarding your power Yeah, that's definitely a part of it. It's a part of it that I think was part of why I didn't think I could be a director for a long time. Like I didn't do film school. I kind of I don't want to say like I stumbled into directing, but I loved writing, I loved editing And like I think on some level, I knew that I wanted to be a director. I wanted to create these worlds and shepherd them all the way through the process. but I'm a pretty like passassive quiet person most of the time, and I don't think I had the I imagine, you know, a director comes out with a megaphone and yells at people and says, you're all a bunch of idiots like what are you doing? I'm making a masterpiece So I had that distorted sort of idea of what being a director had to be like. And that's been one of the best discoveries of my career was like, oh no, you can be like kind of quiet and thoughtful and like calm and generally nice. And like I'm not perfect, but like, you know, you don't have to be some super alpha yelly person to be a director But that took me like a while to kind of believe that like could lead a set and that I could have that, you know I don't want to sound like overly self effacing, but also like, you know, I just I'm a kind of beta type dude who just sort of like, I'm just going be quiet in the corner and just like, whatever. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but I just didn't think was what a director needed to be, but you can sort of be anything you want. We'll finish up with Michael Sarnoski after a quick break. He's the director of the Death of Robinhood. Stay with us. It's Bullseye from maximumfund. org and NPR This message comes from Kachava. It can be tough to stick to your wellness routine, especially when you're on the go. Koachava's new travel packs make it easier. Just one packet provides nutrition ready for wherever life takes you with protein, fiber, grains, probiotics, electrolytes, and more. Take your daily ritual with you. G to kachava dot com d and use code in PR New customers get fifteen percent off their first order. That's kachaVa. com code inPR It's Bll'seye I'm Jesse Thorne. My guest is writer and director Michael Sarnoski When you're looking down the barrel of a camera at Nicholas Cage, what do you learn about moovie stars. I mean, everyone is different. I think with Nick, what I learned was one just what a professional he is. like he came so prepared We rarely did more than two takes. like he knew exactly what he wanted to do with that character. He understood it so deeply and just like watching a pro work. I remember one of the coolest things I would watch him do was when we were blocking the scene He would step into a space And I'd never seen an actor who was like so familiar with the filmmaking process that they would walk in, see where all the lights were, like feel the light on his face and he would sort of be like, oh yeah, this is how I'm going to turn my head to like perfectly capture that. And then for this moment, like you would see him kind of like quietly like dance through the scene and just like taking into account where the camera' going be, where the lights are going to be. And you knew that it just like was all sort of second nature to him. You could see that process happen I was so lucky to get to see that so early on because That's something that only comes after, you know, a career of It's almost fifty years now that he's been making movies. L that was incredible to see As a guy who was making a movie that required great economy and professionalism and care going in just to get it over the hump on budget. What surprised you about watching him work and change the way that you thought about the movie? I think the One of the kindest things that I saw from him was that he took me very seriously. likeike I think it helped that I was the writer and director. and so He liked the script and it spoke to him and so that came for me in some way and like that created this kind of connection and respect, but like treated me as a first time director with a ton of respect and professionalism. like someone would ask him to turn his head for whatever just so they could see something better. And he would always be like, well, what is that what the director wants? And uh and that sort of you know, I think that comes from just being on so many sets where there is this sort of for a reason, there's like a hierarchical system. like it's A lot of it's sort of very militant in some way. likeike you just there are so many people that need to be organized that there is this kind of you need to have this hierarchy to keep things running remotely smoothly. But like he treated me with such respect and seriousness and that really led down to everyone else on set where easily they could have been like, who's this kid making his first movie? Like what the what the heck is this? But they saw how Nick treated me you know, mirrored that behavior in a beautiful way, having people around you that create just a positive experience is so meaningful. And yeah, I first saw that with Nick. Let's talk about Hugh Jackman for a minute I saw Hugh Jackman Broadway and the music man. Yeah And I wasn't thinking This is the kind of guy I would like to see shoot an arrow through the eye of a child. Yeah Do you see and think that about That's great That's a great I'd hate to say. What if they came on this show? No. But It was an ingratiating It was a performance of charm And it was very vividly A guy food takes a note to remember everyone's name and passes out U scratch your tickets to everyone Yeah once a week on set He's obviously been You know, he was Wolverine and Logan as well, which is a pretty brutal movie with a lot of, in this case, superclaws being driven through people's eyeballs But what led you to think that This was the guy who you would want to watch for two hours wrestle with his legacy of death Yeah, there were a few things. One I just always been a fan and like he has an incredible range. Yeahah, from everything from Wolverine to You know, the greatest showman but also like I knew he could do the aggressive broken angry side of this character. likeike he that like, you know, we I knew he could handle that grittiness. And then it was really in sitting down with him and seeing how tentive and sharp and kind he is I think it's the fact that he's a very kind person, but he uses his ability to focus on people and understand people to help bolster that kindness and figure out what he needs to do to like bring something positive out in the people in front of him. and like I remember sitting down with him at this pub in New York when we met for the first time and just feeling like such a sharp focus from him and such a warmth that I was like, I know on some level Robin is going to need that. like you'll need to feel that on some basic level, in these moments of warmth when he does sort of open up to people, that there is like a real true kind human buried somewhere deep down even through all the layers of violence And also I knew that Robin needed to feel keen and very sharp, Like he's an observer of people. He's a reader of lies because he's a teller of lies. and that's where his relationship with Jodie's character, the Priorus kind of comes from is that there' these two people that They're storytellers and they' they sort of are liars and they're both kind of hiding certain things. they're very sharp at like seeing that in other people. And so they kind of like identify each other in some way early on Um So yeah, I think it was like knowing he could do the aggressive side. and you know, handle the action and all that stuff. and he's incredible with that. but knowing that also there would be this this sharpness and this warmth that could always be kind of lingering under the surface. And that was something. I remember seeing that at that pub and being like, okay one hundred percent, like this totally makes sense to me One of the first most intimate scenes in the movie is one where Robin and Little John are on this really brutal mission and they stop And there's just a five, ten, fifteen second scene of them in the woods naked rubbing dirt into themselves There's obviously lake story reasons to have a scene of the guys who are about to go on a killing spree preparing. But Why did you choose to have such an odd intimate way of them doing that. That's a great question. Let me try and dig back into when I was writing that scene because it could have been them sharpening their knives. You know what I mean, rather than rubbing dirt into their underarm. I mean, I think one reason I chose that was, you know, the idea is that they' they're about to attack a place that has guard dogs And so they're covering their scent and kind of, you know, sort of putting putting on their their their battle makeup for a for Rred thing. Yeah. And I think one thing I liked about it was evenven though they haven't seen each other for fifteen years This is something they've done many times before. and there's this sort of like weird aggressive intimacy to their relationship where like on some level Robin did raised littleittle John and he raised him almost as like a child soldier. And so like The fact that this is just after fifteen years something that they feel comfortable doing in front of each other just shows how that history between them must have been that like, oh, yeah, of course, we're going to do our naked like dirt scrubbing thing that we do before we murder people. So I think I think there's something about that about that weird like intimacy that they have through their violent life that evenven though like Robin has conflicting feelings about littleittle John there's a terrifying closeness between the two of them and like what they're capable of doing together Do you think that the fact that There is so much thematics about intimacy in your films. reflects the challenges of trusting intntimacy When you lost a parent as a young person Probably. I mean, I definitely I mean, that's sort of what I was getting into with. I always felt a little bit on the outside and Yeah, it is sort of a constant thing in my life is figuring out how to to other people and U and you know, like I think I'm a pretty good friend and pretty good fiance, but like I definitely have these moments where I'm like, oh, I'm not things the normal way. Like I don't feel like I know how to like behave. Like I don't want to go full on the spectrum with it, but like I definitely like struggle sometimes with How to interact with people and like what's expected of me And I find the things other people do kind of mystifying at times. but I also like I think as I've gotten older I find a lot of joy in that too. L it's like I think as a kid, you're like I don't feel like I fit in and I don't feel like I know how to behave around people and like there's there's some disconnect I still feel that way a little bit O you get better at it, two It's kind of fun to like see how you don't behave the same as others and how Other people don't behave the way you would expect them to behave. And like, yes, that can cause