Reflecting on Coffee as a Career

Franz, we're going to start with a super easy question. Okay your full name and what do you do ? So I'm France Simonz and then I am a coffee at Lost Origin. I'm the one of the founders of Lost Origin Coffee Lab . I do pretty much a little bit of everything for Lost Origin basically. Love it. I don't have a like proper title or something to be CEO, but it's only six people. So it's Hey man, CEO sounds cool. Yeah, put it in on your LinkedIn profile. But I don't have one Tell me a little bit what is lost origin . So Lost Origin, the way I try to explain to people, it's a coffee processing facility . We basically grab the know how from our background in beer brewing and then apply it to coffee. We basically built a lab in which we could control as many variables as possible in order to understand the impact that microbes had on the final cup of coffee . Like five years ago while I was working for the brewery, I just got into coffee, started brewing coffee at home so that coffee tasted different same as a beer you, have laggers, you have IPAs , you have a full spectrum of flavors . And then I found that the coffee fermentation was a thing . So I just started reading as much as I could a co littleffee ferment ation . And then five years ago coffee fermentation was basically grabbing cherries, putting them in plastic tanks and then seeing what would happen . And for me or for us coming from a background in brewering and beer , you know how important temperature control or inoculation or times or pH or bricks are for the fermentation. Like if you do X, Y and C, it really impacts what you're drinking . So we with that idea in mind, we basically built what the origin is today. Sweet , okay. Tell me a little bit about the brewery side and then we'll come back come back to Lost Origin. Let's do some context on your history as a beer beer brewer . So the brewery started in twenty thirteen. It was I believe it was the second crap brewery here in Panama. Okay . When it started, I was eighteen years old , so I basically had just graduated from high school. I reached out to Jonathan, who's the owner. He's a cousin of mine. And told me like, Hey, I want to job for the summer . So I just started working here . It was basically only me and him. So right out of the get go, I was doing things that I shouldn't be doing. I was brewing beer, I was cleaning tanks, I was bottling beer, I was delivering beer, going to bars, going to restaurants. So it was like a crash course into the industry and into processing, following recipes, following procedures . And then I went to college, came back and just continued working for the brewery . And then twenty nineteen is when I said I basically found coffee But I believe that world of following recipes, following central brain procedures, understanding the importance of keeping everything clean, organized following procedures and then also the you need to get this from point A to point B . How do we make that happen in terms of equipment, what to buy , where to look for suppliers . All that stuff really helped when it was time to build loss origin . Okay . Between brewing beer and brewing coffee . a fermenting coffee processing coffee, pardon me . Which world would you say is more easy regimented, structured and recipe , you know, follows the course as you control it. Definitely beer. Like beer people have been doing for thousands of years . Everything has been documented, pretty much everything has been discovered . If you have a question beer, something breaks, you'll just go into Google, redit, ask a question, and you'll have hundreds of people replying in a couple of minutes . In coffee , like the proper research, at least from the microbial fermentation side started, I believe, in like twenty fifteen, twenty fourteen in Brazil in Colombia . So it's not like you have a little handbook that tells you how to process coffee, how to ferment it , especially when we're talking about the type I don't know if it's the type of coffee but, here in Panama, we're not looking for volume and efficiency necessarily. We're looking for the best quality possible. We're looking at small quantities but really good tastes . So from that standpoint, it's really hard to find information . There's obviously other people doing things that are similar to what we're doing , but it's not like you have someone that you look up to and like or like this is how he's doing it so I should be buying the same or doing the same . We are basically with that initial know how or background, we're looking at other industries and then seeing which ideas we can grab from this industry or the other and then put it together for coffee and then just try out, see if it works. And if it doesn't work, you'll go on to the next one. So definitely with coffee it's a lot harder . With beer, you're also you're processing and then you're drinking directly what you what you fermented what you process. So it's really easy to understand the impact that different processes have. In coffee, it's an agricultural product so you have all the barrels in the farm . And then post process , you have roasting, you have grinding, you have brewing , you have hundreds of barrels that make it really , really hard to understand exactly what you did . So yeah, coffee it's a lot harder . Coffee's hard . Coffee's hard. And so lost Origin is based in Panama City and you took it upon yourself to create a logistics network moving coffee from Chita Kei in the west of Panama six, seven hundred kilometers away from the city . No . Run me run me through the mindset of why build here not, in the zone where all the coffee is grown and talk to me a little bit about the purpose of being here in the city. So when I was twenty nineteen got into coffee, started brewing coffee at home, started understanding a little bit more, started getting into it . Then I took the partners of the brewery two origin, two farms, they saw what was going on . For them, it was obvious what I was trying to say when they saw it in person . As soon as we got back, we did a business plan in like two weeks and then we applied here in Panama, you have like like it's a science and technology institute which you apply for grants and then they'll evaluate it and then they will decide if they give you the funding or not. Okay. We applied. It was supposed to be in Bokede. We were awarded the funds . And when they told us, yes, I was like , I don't know if I want to move to Bokede During that time , I was also after work , I was processing cherries that people would send over in coolers . So I had a couple of people that would basically grab cherries, put them in coolers, send them to the city , and I built a makeshift l ab where my office is today and I would process coffee after work . So I would spend my night there just fermenting coffee , deep opening coffee trying to understand how it works , just getting a feel for it . And then those coffees tasted really good. Like we were drying indoors with air conditioning with dehumidifiers , transporting them to the city in a very rudimentary way and processing in a rudimentary way. Coffee still tasted like coffee. So we were like hm m maybe that's something that we can do in the city . And then here we already had infrastructure. We already had employees . We already had there was a lot of synergy between the brewery , the other company that we have next door So it was like let's start in the city. It's going to be a lesser risk. We don't have to go to Boca Dea and build a whole operation from the ground up . So we just started small here in Panama City , saw that it worked . The logistics in the beginning were tricky. I was flying to Wokada every week to basically gather the cherries, send them on a truck, and then I would hop onto a plane and then catch them in the city . But by like the eighth time that we did it, we had a proper team in Boca Dea. They were taking care of it and today it's just It could be sometimes it's a pain , but I don't see the benefits from being here in the city. I also feel it's very unique. Like someone comes to Pama City, they'll have a l ayover of six hours and they can see how to process coffee and then they can cut ten, twenty different farms . So it's I would love to have a place in Chitagi, but right now like being here it's been really good . Tell me one of the challenges initially of your logistics network . Do you have a story that stands out of the early days, you know, jumping on planes and catching catching cherry, loading it on vans ? I think it was just that being having to like I would fly to I would fly Ochirigi in the morning flight, then I would go to five different farms, gather the cherries, send them to the logistical place that we have. I would load up the truck , I would like physically do all of that and then I would basically just run to catch the plane so that I could be here when the cherries arrived so it was more just a hassle of going back and forth. It's I don't know how many times we've done it, but over fifty and there's never been like real trouble. Like sometimes the truck has been delayed, but I've never had a mishap which is like for me I don't know how we haven't done something wrong . It's good planning, man. It's good management. But well, yeah , so Jonathan used to work for the United Nations in logistics he's really good at that. He from the beginning we set up the crates that we use . So it's basically creates then, we'll do a t ag . So I think also that experience of Jonathan from logistics really helped . So yeah, it's not as bad as you would think. And then we'll pick up cherries at PM at farms , send them to the logistical center, empty them into the plastic crates , and then put them inside the refrigerator truck at sixty thir seven , the truck will deboke or arrive here in Panama City at three or four AM and then we'll process everything in about ten, twelve hours . But when you think about it, it's not it's not that big of a hassle . Today, it's not that big of a hassle because you've got it streamlined. Yeah. Run me through what is an average week look like before you hear it at Lost Origin? It depends on the season. So November will start getting ready for processing and then we'll process from December to late March, April . In February, March, you'll start receiving clients and then March you'll start shipping so you have like different waves . You put on different hats in each wave , but normally Mondays so Wednesday you're receiving cherries, you're processing all that and then basically Thursday , Friday , Monday, Tuesday , you're managing drying so you're emptying fermenters, putting them into the drying rooms . So at least production wise, it's a pretty stable cycle and then it just depends on the waves. Some days you're processing but then you go cupping, you go off the ship . So it's production wise . We think we have a pretty much nailed. It's just a continuous cycle . It just depends on the moment to see what's going on with clients, basically. So I think February, March is going to be the hardest time . Because clients are here at the same time that coffee is in full action. You're processing, you're cupping for quality control variables cupping for clients and then you're milling and doing sorting for shipments, handling logistics , all that stuff. So that's the trickiest time. If you could choose . W youould split those calendars and have a dedicated time that clients came and you know more separated from the processing from the season? Definitely the thing is that obviously the harvest season is the most stressful time with cashflow . So if that wasn't an issue, of course it'd be easier to just process everything, have everything ready and then have everyone cup because that way you can process everything , analyze everything and then be able sort everything really good. And then you'll be able to say like, okay, this coffee is for this price category. This is good for BOPs, this is good for competitions, this is good for brewers, for barisa . That would be ideal . Just if you had more time to physically go your whole menu actually do a full QC report and breakdown. Yeah, yeah. And that way you can just focus on processing. That's four months out of the year and then you can do cuppings, shipping and all that stuff later . I like that idea. Let's petition for that idea . Tell me about you're in a unique position. You are buying cherry . You don't have your own farm that you're you're receiving your own harvest from . Tell me what that's like. What are the farms like what's examples of some pharms you work with? What's the experience of doing business in that sort of style? So the first year was really tricky because we're not from Ch itigi. We're from the city . We had never worked with coffee before. We had no idea what we were doing. I think being from the brewery was a good entry into farms. I would just tell them like, Hey, we're the same guys from Casaluja, the beer that you drink and most likely that would recognize the brand . But the first year was tricky finding farms that would be willing to sell cherry . We were super luck y that people like Stefan from Nubanji and started working with us in the beginning . Andreina from Catalada , Andre a from Haramio. So there were a couple farms that just they trusted us and we started processing coffees were tasting good or these people deemed coffees were tasting good . And then since the first year, like those coffee were bought by big roaster brands , most of these farms that we were working with at the time were not necessarily selling coffee gutter linearing or like to big roasters . So it's pretty cool to be like I'm buying your cherry and processing it and then I'm exporting it into like the right places and it's still going to have your name. Like it will say lost origin, but it's lost origin Dumbi . Right. And then that gives the farm like credibility so it was cool to see these farms that we were working with. They started raising their level I can only buy I only buy your harvest from one day of the week . So I can only buy so much , but you have a bunch of extra coffee that you need to move. So hopefully we're giving them that exposure and they're able to move those coffee . Nowadays, this is our fourth harvest. It's easier to find farms because people would say like there's these guys from the city. They pay really good prices for cherry . They're doing great stuff with coffee. They might not understand what we're doing, but they're seeing that we're processing that coffee and then you'll have small farmers like Dignan is, you'll be in Japan and then her coffee is being offered one of the best roast foods in the world . And it's still her name. Like it's sauce origin, but her name . So now we have more options to choose from . And hopefully we can continue finding these small farms that have incredible quality coffee. They just don't necessarily have the money or the cash flow, the equipment or the access to the international market . Was that when you when you started lost origin? Was that part of the business plan was to sort of elevate the platform for smaller holder producers ? Or is that that something's happened as a byproduct of the way the business has sort of unfolded? Honestly, I can't remember if that's something that we that we were aiming for. I know when I when I got into coffee, so before getting into coffee specifically, I was interested in agriculture . Agriculture without having land is pretty tough . But then I coffee. But the main reason I wanted to get into agriculture was because I felt I could do something for my country, like play a part in something that's a more direct impact here in Panama. Beer it's obviously nice. It was pretty cool , but it's harder to have a brother impact in Panama and then in the world , Casaro has one of the best brews in Latin America, but then having you already have Germany , Belgium, all of this, right? So I did have that in the back of my head. Like I want to I feel like in coffee I can make a big impact in my country . Do something that's, I think coffee is like a hundred percent panamanian. It's something we that we should be super proud of . and it was just like a small niche that I could I felt I could have a big impact in . So I don't want to say that we were like trying to do that on purpose. It just it happened and nowadays it is something that I'm trying to do on purpose . It's going to Walkan, going to Goku, trying to find small producers talking with them who basically buy cherry blind the first time and then evaluate and based on company will continue buying, hopefully continue to increase the prices and then you have people like Margot and Mario from Vincamaya . That was like the coolest thing that could have happened. Martin using their coffee for rolls, like Martin's the nicest guy ever than Mario de Mario are like the cutest people . They have all the best intentions . The farm was just like a burden for them and seeing how they've grown throughout the years marching in twenty twenty four, last year Basel Palama. Like now the farm is not something in which they're losing money. I'm sure they're not making that much money, but at least they can be more excited about the farm and then keep it for the next generations . Hopefully the impact that we had on lemon we can have many other farms. Tell me a little bit more about Fincamiah, about Martin for people who wouldn't know those names. Give me a bit more of a deep dive on that storyline . So Fincamaya is just a farm that we started buying from . I was given their contact. We received their cherries. At the time it wasn't something so meaningful. I just received the cherries, processed them . And then I cuped them and I was like, What's this? And I found out that it was in Kamaya . At the same time, Martin from Ostra , he was looking for a coffee for competition in B rewer's Cup . And he reached out through Sam from Mona Normally those requests I would ignore. I just I texted it in bag because it was from Sam and he told me like I'm looking for coffee for worlds. I told him I don't know, I have like two kilos of this coffee that's really good. I can just send it over to you and sent over those two kilos . He used them in Chicago for a World Brewer's Cup and he got first place . When that happened, Finkamaya didn't even have an Instagram . And then all of a sudden everyone was trying to get bad coffee . And what was that? What was the emotion for you to see , you know, you go all the way to the finish line in the World Brewers Cup, one of the most prestigious competitions in coffee sports, if you will , what did what that did feel like for you? That's your second year of production, third year of production? It would have been your second year. Second year . In the beginning, I didn't think much of it. Like we were I knew it was happening and then I obviously saw Martin's routine on YouTube I never I had never met Martin. I didn't know his background so I just for me it wasn't like I didn't feel that there was a possibility of him moving into semi finals or finals . And then I guess when he went into the finals it was like, oh wow, this is getting real and then all the part ners got together and we were watching it in this room and they were announcing the people and all of a sudden he won and it was we just couldn't believe what had happened. I told the farm and they didn't understand what was going on . They had no idea what was happening. And then Pocho, Gallero, who was in Chicago called the farm and told them like, this just happened. They did a better job of explaining and they were super excited . Like two weeks later, Martin came to Panama and we went together to visit Mario and Amarigo . And basically the whole vibe was like everyone wanted to cry. It was such a special, beautiful moment . Yeah , no . I got some tinglies. No, yeah, that's cool man. That's super cool. How , you know, that 's a huge , huge tipping point type of type of moment for a business, right? You're you're in your second year of production, your coffee just got used down one of the highest platforms and succeeded . How did that change your business , change your trajectory, change lost origin? So in the beginning at first, it was incredible. You went through all that rush and feelings and emotions, all that stuff , but then I don't want to say it in a negative way, but all of a sudden you had so much attention . You were getting emails, WhatsApps , personal Instagram, Los Ordinal Instagram , and it was really hard to handle for a really small company. I guess we weren't prepared for it at the moment. But if I look at it back , it's incredible because now you can go you can go somewhere and you just say like oh yeah Los Sword Finkamaya, Martin used it for Worlds. He got first place and people at least have an idea. It's like a badge that you're legit in some way. Right. So it's giving us so many opportunities . When we're traveling to Expose, we'll have boosts together so it's given Bostorgan credibility in the industry . And then for Inkamaya we've been able to do so many more things for them because of that because it's a coffee that everyone wants . So it's been it's been a great experience. And then again , like Martin is the greatest guy ever. So it's it's really cool to be able to to get to know him like now we're friends. It's not like he's just a client . So it's cool to be able to travel with him, learn from him , see how they're they're growing their pres ence, how they're doing different projects and how we can continue to grow together . It's been pretty cool. Sweet man. That's nice. And then you go on to do some best of Panama . You said some big accolades in the best of Panama last year. Yeah. So that's one of the things that we were doing with Inkamaya , we would process coffee for them and then basically give it back to them so that they could submit it to the BOP They submitted a natural lot and last year got fifth place in B OP, which was just incredible for them. Being able to get that money, what they can do for the farm, getting that recognition . I feel like it's the same like it gives you a badge, that your coffee is legit, it's good. It's something that for buyers knowing that, okay, this is BOP quality coffee, I can maybe buy directly from you . So it was incredible seeing them at the ceremony, being able for them to pick up the price . That was an incredible feeling. And how does that work? You work with so many different farms. You have twenty different farms, give or take, like, twenty eight? twenty eight . Okay . How does that work on the perspective of the best of Panama? You can like how do you choose who you're going to work with for for submitting lots? Do you have a strategy to your selections for best of Panama? For me personally, it's very like we've had people say like I'm going to give you cherries and you're gonna do a best of a lot for me . For me that doesn't work because we don't do magic we're still trying to understand the process and what we do . With a farm like Finkamaya, it's something that we have a special relationship with. So it's something that I'm going to try and do for them. So in that case, it's basically they'll send me over the cherries, I'll do the processing. Hopefully it's good. If we think it's good, we'll give it back to them and then they can submit it to me OP . Us as lost origin, we cannot submit directly to BOP . So it's something that we'll just do for one or two farms that's like a special relationship that we have with something someone we really want to help out . It's a way so you either have together recognition , you have competition so burst our birds or BOP . So it's a way for us to like demonstrate what this farm is capable of ? Are either of those platforms Barista brewers or Best of Panama? Are either of those platforms guiding light s in your business at all, or are they secondary thoughts ? I think when we started, that was at least competition, we knew like we have to be there so that people recognize us . And then what we thought would happen in five years, four years happened the second year . Definitely a competition, definitely barista. Like it's something that you can work towards, try to have a couple people. The more people that you have, the bigger the chances are that you will win. Even winning nationals or being in the finals and in worlds like give you a lot of recognition it's something I'll use like this coffee this guy use for competition so it should be really good coffee and then with BOP, I feel it's the same. It's just in competition, you're trying to create unique profiles that would catch someone's attention . You have ten minutes to do a presentation. You want to grab the judges' attention. So it's going to be coffee that have a little bit more process . In BOP, what we're trying to do is preserving the inherent qualities of that farm and then creating just the most beautiful cup that you can . Instead of adding layers on top of it, you basically want to have it as clear as possible . It would be like in beer, you have a lagger It's super clean fermentation . If you have an off flavor, you'll catch it right away . You need to be a lot more careful . On the other side you have like an IPA which you can hide flavors off flavors basically like hops or other aromatic compounds . So for BOP it 's just trying to present the most beautiful expression of that farm. With competition you're pushing the expression of that farm to see where it can go . Then sometimes you'll too far and sometimes you'll be too low. And so it's just two different things . But that's cool. I like the perspective. I like the breakdown between the two . And if I understand correctly through your business model , the logger approach the super clean is not necessarily what you're going for with the scientific approach utilizing microbes and bacteria and yeasts and inoculations and you're trying to create more expression, right? You're trying to create more complexity , push the cap as far as you can in a way . So when we started the project , don't want to say we were when we started the project we, were coming from that crab beer background . Krab beer, it's curious people that are trying to create noble tea flavors for people to experience . You're playing around with different ingredients to create this unique beverage for people to experience. So when we started the project, that was definitely our mindset. That's how we would approach coffee fermentation . We would use beer yeasts, we would try to push the fermentation because it was fun to be able to do a coffee with a lagger yeast fermented at eight degrees Celsius for ten days and then drying it at twenty degrees Celsius. I'm pretty sure no one had done that at the time. So it was pretty much just trying to play with fermentation to see what would happen to the coffee as we matured as a company or company and person , I feel right now we're trying to focus basically on standardizing the process, like the mechanical process, how coffee gets from point A to point B With that microbial perspective , so right now it's more focusing on how to standardize the process . Most of the copies are just a result of that trying to let's standardize this process, let's try to actually understand if we do x, y and z, we get x results . So I would say that's the main focus now for for seventy percent to eighty percent of our harvest of our production. And then the other twenty percent is still in a way us having fun exploring where cropping can go , doing different things but yeah, I think it's I don't want to say it's a misconception but most people will come here for like looking for like crazy funky coffees and then they'll cut the t able and that's not necessarily what we offer . We feel like also here in Panaga, the reason why I'm able to do what I do today is because a group of people twenty five, thirty years ago got together , they created this Panama Geisha brand. They put it out there in the world , and I'm just writing the wave that they created. So for me, like from it's something that I have in the back of my head . Like I need to keep pushing for a certain profile or like this is where Panamag a is. I always want to explore because I want to see what the limits are , but I also have that in mind. Like I want to keep Panama Geisha you don't need like if you're doing Kapoi or like commercial volume, you do need to add things so that the coffee tastes like something with the coffee that we're working with , it's already the best coffee in the world. So for us, the mindset is let's try to preserve that. Again, in fermentation, let's try to keep everything clean , let's understand the microbes that are playing an impact in that coffee so we don't have any off flavors and let's keep the temperatures low in drying . Let's keep it indoors. There's no rain, there's no wind, there's no animals , it's hard to keep it clean and then just let's just preserve the flavors from the farm. Do you have a word or a few words that you use to describe approach to coffee . I don't think we don't have like a I don't have like a bus word well I do have the marketing term is from farm to lab but in my head for me, we're looking at coffee from a microbial perspective . Coffee for the last hundred years has been looked at from a mechanical perspective. You want it to get volume as fast and efficiently as possible . And then for me, I'm just looking at it from a micro oil perspective . So I want to understand the microbes that are playing a role in fermentation and then how to control that population so that we have a positive outcome. So all of our processes are going to be designed with that in mind . So it's basically looking at coffee processing from a microbial perspective ? I like that. Okay , talk to me about how you build your catalog. You work with twenty eight different farms . You primarily sell geisha. How do you interact with these twenty eight farms? How do you choose types of coffee you're going to receive on your day that you get your cherry . How do you look to build the catalog to share with your clients? So in the beginning, it was harder finding farms as I said . Nowadays, it's just trying to talk to people and then you'll find one farmer, let's say, you'll start talking to him. Like, do you have any neighbors that might have coffee . You'll look at different regions or altitudes or like microclimates that you would want to have . And then just try and talk to people. You'll get a vibe from them. Like it's still it's still like a handshake business . It's not like you're signing a contract that you want to sell cherries. So the vibe with the farmer it plays a big part you have that and then it's also like just exploring , going through the farms , trying to find new farms in different locations , higher altitudes, something that's unique, someone that has a good story to tell as I said, like most of the times the first time you're buying blind , you'll cup and then evaluate what you do next , but it's also just the vibe that you get from a person like, is this someone that I could have a long term partnership with? Is this is a one time thing the first two years we were only having coffee from Bokede so from one region of Palama . Last harvest we started moving into Bolkango B,olkhang, Pasuancho , Santa Clava . And then this year we branched out even further in the Bulkang region and yeah, basically try to ideally it's a place that you come to and you can get a little taste of Panama in just one place and you will have farms. We have some really well known farms that have proven quality , but then we also have new and interesting farms that are roasted and highlight at their place . And you're willing to receive any variety of coffee, should they should they have the pick ready that day and cherry looks good and quantities or amounts that you can work ? Honestly, for us , when we do heritals, it's mostly because I want to have a bigger catalog. I know Nolan from Prademary, he really likes his pacamara Maraji as well to do a couple someone else they like , so I'll try to have at least one or two lots for them . But the setup that we have today, the logistics, the setup being in the city, the type of processing that we do . It's not necessarily built for varietals cost of production and all that stuff are really high with geisha. It's something that you can you have the margins for it, but with varietals here not really really making that much money. So definitely we're focusing on Geisha and I think that's one of the other things that makes the project unique . In Panama, it makes sense to do this because of the prices that you sell coffee at . If we were doing this in Colombia or in Brazil , it'd be really hard to have a business that is actually making money from selling green coffee . The way that I look at it now is basically we're paying for the research and development that we're doing . We're able to invest in equipment that doesn't make sense for a farmer. Like most of the things that we bought are things that for our farm, it'd be ridiculously expensive , but then we've been able to buy that equipment and some of it has worked , some of it hasn't hasn't really worked . But Geisha has given us the ability to do that in the way that we're doing it. Panama Geisha, man. Panama Geisha forever Okay, you're three years in. What does the next five years look like? You've won a world coffee championship, you've placed top five in a best of Panama . What does what does the future look like for Lost Origin? I think the easiest answer there is Barista, having someone in Berista, something that we've never had . And then And honestly, I don't it's hard because all the things that we thought would happen in three, four or five years already happen pretty quick . And then we have so many opportunities but it's hard to you have so many opportunities but other than it's you have you still have to deal with your daily stuff . Ideally I would love to have our feet in Chidigi , have a small operation in Chidigi . And then hopefully what we do here is something that we can scale as a product like as having a processing facility in other places . I think that 's what we look to do in the future . Right now it's basically trying to understand , first understand the process, then try to standardize it, then get enough data to understand what's actually going on. And then once you've understood that be able to basically export that knowledge . I think that's the vision we have right now. Interesting. Almost like a franchise model not franchise necessarily, but you duplicate lost origin where you've built here and you try that in Colombia or in Peru or Ecuador or in another or general to get it. Definitely here in Panama first. Okay . Also like when I went to what's the name When I went to Latera for them like being big , like how big they are, they can make a big imp . And then for me, it's like here, we've impacted the lives of a couple producers, but there's only so much I can do. But if I can replicate this in other places in Panama, I can have a bigger impact on many other producers. There's hundreds or thousands of small producers out there that hopefully we could make a bigger impact. And then if it works in Panama , of course let's try to do it somewhere else right . Because you have so farms experts at farming . I couldn't have a farm and then you can't ask a farmer build what we built here money wise and then that's just not their expertise So I would see it as I'll just give you an all in one solution to your to your processing. I like it. I think it makes it makes sense. It's a problem many people face, right? They can grow beautiful cherry, but if you can't finish the product or you can't achieve the next steps and get it to export quality, export grade, it's hard to run a business. We see it with so many farms that they have incredible quality cherry, but then they'll pick it and then that day it's raining or it rains for a couple couple days or it's not sunny and then you can't try the coffee What do you do? So at least having those outlets because the other outlet right now is basically selling it to a commercial mill in which you're not getting paid enough to make a living from coffee. You're just getting paid enough to give the pickers their weekly money and then just survive . So I wish I could be buying more cherry bread . From your perspective in the learning that you've had in the years that you've done this now . Which part of your of your approach has the biggest impact on cup quality? Is it more on the processing side? Is it more on the drying side , is it more just inherent to the cherry you're receiving itself ? Or is there one sort of standout element has the biggest impact for you? I couldn't so definitely cherry is probably the most important thing . You need good quality cherry in to have good quality cherry out. You can't do magic. The only thing that you could do is like over process that coffee and then hide any defects and find somebody that's willing to buy that coffee. Okay . Yeah , but then I think it's just a combination of the things that we do. All the small details that for us it's for us there we're just used to that like keeping the coffee at lower temperatures , like not letting the coffee be out in the sun , drying at low temperatures . Once the coffee is already green, let's have it vacuum sealed, let's have it in a room that's cold . So I think it's just a little bit of everything . Definitely I don't want to say we understand fermentation, but by now we have a better understanding of what's going on. I feel like the most critical thing would be drying or at least the most the thing that we understand the least and we believe it makes a big impact because fermentation is going to be twenty four or forty eight, seventy two hours but then drying for us at least it's going to be fifteen or thirty days . So there's definitely happening there. In the first couple of days you will definitely have microbial activity and then it's just understanding how the water going in, going out impacts how you roast the coffee and then how you in turn how you experience that coffee in the final cup. Drying is something that we need to learn more about and then based in terms of creates the inherent qualities that our coffees have , I think it's just it's a combination of every small detail that we do . And we just do it because we believe it makes sense . And by now we've sort of proven that it makes us not in a scientific way, but we've been selling coffee had good results and yeah, it's not necessarily something that I would tell farms like you need to do X, Y and Z ha, but that's just it's been working out for us. What is the best experience you've ever had out in the world drinking your own coffee it's well the best experience I've had because of coffee now there's a couple but like the most magical was with Pinkamaya, like just going , going back to the farm, meeting Martin, going to the farm with him, sitting down . I had to leave a couple times because I wanted to cry and like it was such a magical experience. The farm is beautiful. They're beautiful people . Just the vibe there was incredible. It's a moment that I'm sure you will remember for a long time . And then coffee in general, like last year I went to nine or ten countries just for coffee, which is crazy. It's crazy. You can go anywhere in the world the world and you can just enter a coffee shop grocery and they'll you'll know someone that knows them and you'll connect with them. I'll be in I was in Kyoto I, went to a small shop in the middle. It's like it was hidden from the street and the guy was like, Oh yeah, that's Georgian. How ? And I thought that's incredible with coffee. That's such a world wide business . Traveling the experiences that you have with people, I think it's as I said with farms like it's a handshake business. It's It's very personal . You get to meet a lot of people. There's obviously a lot of drama that comes with that which is in beer it used to be nicer. Everyone's friends in coffee there 's a lot of drama and competition in farming and everything sure . But yeah, I still can't complain . It's giving me things that I never thought I would . It's an amazing vehicle that I also never expected would take me around the world, but coffee's coffee's cool, man. It's unexpected. That's what it's capable of. Speaking of traveling, there's a big show coming coming this year to Panama. We've we've got the world of coffee happening in October. How do you and your team you,'re here in Panama City. How do you prepare for that? What are you hoping to see from the show? Tell me a little bit about your perspective on that. For us, it's really cool. It's going to be an opportunity for our team and for our partners to experience what a world of coffee is. Like most of the times I'm traveling alone so they'll all be able to play a part in the event. We'll be able to h ost people in our home or place. Like we'll definitely have a big party here at the brewery . We'll be able to show everyone the processing facility like having family there most of the times they don't understand what you're doing so it's like it's a direct connection to see what you're doing and also having the worst accompetition here in Panama will have a bunch of big players in the industry here. I think it's a great opportunity for farms to showcase what they do . Sometimes it's I feel like people have a disconnection with what happens in producing countries . So for them to all them to be traveling to Panama, experimenting with farming like how much work goes into cherry to final cup for like the bulk of the industry to experience that And yeah, we'll have our own stand. It's the first time that we'll have our own proper stand so it's also exciting. And yeah, just in general, we're really excited about it. We're a coffee pana. Gotta be there. No, gotta be there. Okay, last question. Philosophical one . I know you're a big philosophical guy. Yeah, take a big swig of that. You're gonna need it. What does coffee mean to you today So for me, coffee has basically become my life. When I when I was in brewing, it wasn't something that I would necessarily see the rest of my life being there with coffee . I feel like it's such a young industry that I can dedicate the rest of my life to coffee and I still won't answer everything that I need to answ er so I do see myself in the long run with coffee . Right now it's processing. I'm sure that will lead to the next thing and then the next thing and then the next thing but I think it's a beautiful industry. It's a worldwide industry . It's something that you do with your hands, something that you can connect with someone by drinking something that you made . And then there's so much to be discovered . Basically coffee has become my life. Beautiful, man . Franz, thanks, dude. No. That was killer. I know you don't like being on camera. I know you don't like doing these. That was rock solid. That was awesome. We'll see the result . I know, I think the result, we just saw the result, dude, we don't need to wait for it in the drawing room. We just saw it. No,