Future Goals and Personal Vision

Welcome to our final installment of the From Soil to serervice series This time, we meet with Herman Madrigal, our head of retail and a longtim leader within Cat and Cloud. He is one of the people most responsible for what hospitality actually looks and feels and tastes like in our four cafes We get into his interesting career journey led to his current position plus what it really takes to build a team that cares about the details why systems are what set people free. Lots to learn for all those interested in cafe leadership Lastly, if you've been following along all the way, we just wanted to take a minute and say thanks. Thanks for listening and learning from our team. We Really appreciate you So please reach out with any questions, comments or musings Our contact info is in the show notes. All right, let's get into it Every's learning you guys, when you're open. Everyday's learning. Hey guys. Welcome, though, huh? Should we just bring the heat to the table? I'm ready. It I'm feeling spicy, so this one's gonna be ridiculous. Okay, that's great. well, welcome to the Cat and Club podcast. My name's Jared. overver there is Chris Baka. We are sitting with . Get close, G get closeer you need youor. Bord do I make out with the microphone? Make up. Wait really? Yeah look like goh. Who was here before Oh we sort of sanitizeed them every time. Oh I farted on it last episode.rling and give you milk. Yeah. Beuse you're ailtch right. Yeah I did Vlt m. Everything is beautiful even by my a aromas We're continuing with the soil to service Protocol here and we have our next iteration with Cen. sits at the head of retail and has been here for approximately eightight and a half years. It's been about eight a half years. It'll be nine later. Yeah, will It'll always be nine later than eight dude later. E at least at least six is the joke though. Yeah at least five for at least five years.ast At least five years. Give or take. That's me with long arcs of time. Anything after a week, I'm just it's all it's just goes all into the same. was invested in me. was About a week ago, it was two years ago.ome people do they say they like, Yeahah, the other day and I'm like, oh, that must have been soon and they're like talking about months ago monthso. Yeah I'm like, what the that other day that ye Yeah. I don't know why I'm just like, yeah, it was not that long ago. Like the other other other other other of other dayays. Yeah going a lot of other days ye It was the other day. It's not today which is a very open ended book. So anyway, welcome, Herman Herman one of the OGs These things make me incredibly nervous and I don't know why. beinging an OG or being on the podcast. N the ladatter. Yeah the podcast. the world is listening and they're obviously caring a lot about this Why don't you for the sake of making this easy. talkal about yourself nonstop for the whole time. and we'll just sit here. We'll just be here. Thatf. That's perfect. You can just a doog. Yeah. Yeah. I might draw some picture It's just Jared's probably gonna comes a song forty five to an hour. You can' make ey contact Yeah. I don't know.. Then you can sit you up in a group I'll put on a song. So okay, dude, you've been here though, you came. You've been on the podcast before, but I still think it's worth revisiting You joined the team when we only had two cafes. We had Abbott Square, we had Portola. cororrect Amundo? Right. It was just like I think it was a month or two after you opened ab. like just got going. Yeah You at the time, from what I remember were also, if not had just left either Verizon or a cellphone company and you were hot fire into becoming a yoga certified teacher. Right. I was back. I was unemployed, I think for like S months. justust becausecause I didn't want to work. Yeah yeah. Well, I had done a bunch of other things and I had saved up a bunch of money because I wanted to go to o, I went to UCSE And And I was like, Oh, I'll be unemployed for six months. It'll be it'll be fun. And I was really bored after after the third like Th third or fourth month, I started realizing I was like, I need to do something. I'm gonna Yeah crazy I heard your story because you were some sort of championship salesman. Yeah, I was For were you selling phones or plans or what? All of it? All of it. talk to me, you left with all of it. So You're one of those people that if you read, You're easy to relate to when I talk to you, you know, but when when I read your stat sheet, you make no sense because you you got this Championship cell phone, sales plan sales guy Also super into yoga, like kind of teaching. alsoso went to the Cabrio culinary program loves to cook food. like what's like How the hell do you make the transition from Any one of those things to ending up at Cat and Cloud He It was crazy because I was Yeah, that's that's nuts U I thought this was gonna to be a chill part time job for me Totally little chill ass job. It turns out that it's really freaking cool to work here and I fell in love with it. It was just gonna be a part time gig while I was in college 'cause I was like, sure, I'll learn about coffee and you guys got me I remember walking in the third time I walked in I think it was Tanner He knew my beverage and my name. and he said Bye Herman, have fun at yoga, ennjoy your flat white. And I turned around. I looked at him and I was like, So What kind of wizard are Tannard is and was like extremely good at hospitality. Oh yeah. He was definitely a huge inspiration for me. and O day I was working here and I was kind of thinking about I was getting ready to graduate and I was going to go do kind of what Charles did where I was going go look at stock portfolios and that's what I was studying really hard to do and work in finance and I was looking at Tanner I was like, dang. I could have Tanner's job I could do that And And I remember telling Tanner, I was like, Tanner, I want your job. I don't know what you're going to do, but I want your job I like I'm coming for you guys. Yeah, that's literally it. He's like, all right, what am I to do? I'm like, you'll figure out. It'sation. Not my problem, bro. I've always been Tantan Lego man on the interternet. So I fell in love. It it was super great. L I think I've always really loved working with people. I always really loved helping them discover new things or or just just really have long conversations with them about anything and This was and if you know me, this is why this is what ties all the things together Anything that I get into, I get way the fuck too into it. Like just nerdy about it. If I'm into it, ye, I'm already reading about this, that, that, this going down the rabbit hole and You guys did that for me here and I've been here eight and a half years and it's been a hell of a ride. What was was there a point at which you realized, o, okay, this is no longer a temporary stop on the train or I'm in it a little deeper, you know, was it like a year in, two years in. you're like, oh shit, I'm still here. What's happening? I can't remember what the stretch was, but I remember specifically thinking about it when I was working at AppTOS. We had just opened AppTOS. I decided I was going to come work as a barista full time And and like I remember I couldn't go to opening dayay because I was graduating and my mom wanted me to walk.. And I was like, fuck, I don't want to walk. but she really wanted me to walk. So I I didn' go to opening dayay. Yeah. and it was like within a couple months of working at A Tos where I was like, oh I want Tanner's job. that's what I want to do. I want to do this and help other people fall in love with hospitality, the coffee, the genuine connection that we create here. and that's I was like, that was a switch for me. I was like This is what I love to do. This is what I'm going do. I remember time where we ended up coming to you eventually and like suggesting that you step into leadership. But prior to that, what led us to do that was We would have these kind of sit downs with the leadership group and talk through things And then we would be paying attention to who engaged and responded and how And you were one of the people who had either good questions for clarity or things to say that were supportive of the culture that we're bringing, you know awareness and education to the team at large. because I think there was probably like fifteen or so of us sitting in in that room at NaptOS, we'd meet remember that. And we would have those meetings and we'd kind of dive into stuff for an hour or two and have conversations. And I remember that was a point where you and a few other indivuals who stepped into leadership in some regard, like we're really starting to engage. And I remember that And I don't know if that was before or after you attended like a nerdy I was like, let's get into espresso dynamics in dialing in single origin coffees in the lab over here in our other Rastterry too. And those were two points whereere I was like this guy's really interested and engaged And I thought about that in the context of life though I was like, I feel like he's somebody who wants to like learn about and get really good at whatever he's doing. And to understand it though, there's a difference between like being good for the sense of skills set and then understanding for the sense of making other people better and connecting. And that was the other That was like the X factor to me that I was like, oh, this could be. Really, really powerful. It's interesting to know that you are always like, I want notot always, but Herman's job or not Terman's job Tanner's job. And to see that kind of be behind this engagement, it just feels very authentic when I hear that part of it. Yeah. Those times were really fun though. I remember those two Yeah. I just I just like The happiest times you'll see me is I'll be wearing an apron and making someone's day behind the counter. And those are the favorite like I don't get to do that as often anymore. Right. But when I do, I'm like smiling from ear to ear because it it's so fun and getting to show other people how simple it could be to make someone's day with coffee or with food or with any little like gesture that just makes them feel seen in the slightest way That's what I really love to do. That's the fun part. Right What was it like to transition out of doing that every day and into a bigger leadership role? Be you've had several Progressions. phases, yeah, prorogressions of leadership. Uh I sucked at it at first. I remember there was one iteration where we we kind of co it was right out of COVID And I was working with Levi, shout out to Levi. A And we were working trying to normalize the stores after this huge crazy thing that happened. and There was just so much to do and it was more than being able to just connect with people every single day. There was a systematic way of like learning and creating systems that I just didn't understand at the time at all at all and It was really hard and it was difficult. And then I remember we swapped away to a different model where Jared stepped back in And then I got to run Swift Street, which was one of the Best gifts ever And we created a breakfast burrito and I drove that team for a while and then eventually prettyretty good at that And then I was like, okay I'm I'm ready to revisit. and it was kind of a frustrating time in my life where I was like Okay, I'm good at this TL thing, but I need more Ne need more I need to learn how I need to level up and figure out. and there was decisions that I knew needed to be like happen, but couldn't find the traction to make them happen and then you two were like super busy because it was still like not that long after COVID. Yeah, we were recovering hard trying to make sure how we were going make it still They were Yeah. It was rough. and it was tipping point where Jared and I had this like really long, hard conversation and And then I was like, all right I'm ready You did well in that conversation I that was awesome. But I mean, obviously, we were like it was pretty raw and real and we we got into it and But I mean I want to know what it was about. U J just alignment in like where we were going and what we were doing and what our tensions were and how because of how everything was. and obviously, I didn't understand as much as I do today and I still don't like I respect you both a lot But u I It was just I wasn't seeing a lot of forward traction that we were getting and I just didn't realize how many Hogs were stuck and trying you all were trying to figure out how to make it happen. And it was a bigger perspective shift where it's like Jared was like I get you, I know we need to go there, but this is stuck, this is stuck at this is stuck and this is what we need to do now And it gave me some broader perspective and like deeper respect for more like for all three of you all And I was like, okay, I can keep going with these guys. But was I was literally really frustrated. Yeah. Yeah I remember we were stuck We were And we were stuck. and it was frustrating. I mean, we weren't even stuck. We were kind of going backwards for a little bit because of what was going on during that whole era. Yeah. I mean, we made do, you know, ultimately went forward, but Yeah, it was very it was very rough. But then Since then, There was that whole transition where I think I stepped into ahead of retail and I forgget how we shuffled the rest of the team. I can't remember who went where and why and belieelve I was gone. Yeah. long gone. or I think he was working as a barista and now It was I had fresh perspective and I started to like changeed I like I couldn't do the work directly and it was really hard for me. And I remember having a long conversation with my shout out to my father in law. mister John We were having a conversation and I was telling him, I was like, I literally feel like I go to work and I do nothing. And he's like, you're not going to work and doing nothing Yeah. It's like now your job is to think about the problems and solve them with systems And it was like maybe like a couple months into my like role. And then it really shifted my brain into like, how do I create systems such that it allows people to do what I love to do? without actually wearing the apron myself. Yeah. And that is hard. That's the brain out. I mean, that's a big part of leadership And and then development in general. Yeah, for sure, for sure. A hard one. Yeah, I remember I remember that conversation. It was being it was being able to help paint the picture of the behind the scenes for you and then tryry to alleviate your tensions while speaking to how like it felt to have those tensions like alive, right? And just being like, look like here's here's paint that picture, but also paint like how important and impactful you are and can be if we can kind of get those intentions to like settle like to you get the simmering in the pot down instead of it being boiling? Let's bring it down to a simmer a little bit And what can we do to help paint a picture so you can see that and see that you don't need to boil. But I totally understand why you would be because I I get it. likeike it's so When you the farther up you get, the more you see what is whereere the different bottlenecks are and then how It seems so simple to fix them in some regards. You're like, well just do this. and then in order to just do whatever this is, you have to like There's like ten other things that are walking in the way. and so it's been The thing about you that I really enjoy though is you are able to see the big picture and how it connects to the intro level team member. And I think that's a really powerful thing and why it made a lot of sense to put you not only in leadership, but then to continue to evolve you into the headad of retail because you can You have people need to be able to paint a picture that's clear and relatable to many different kinds of people in your business in order for them to even believe in your mission and values at all. You know, like you need people to do that that are not just the owners. They expect the owners to do it.. That's all already expected. And if the owners don't do it and it's expected, that's a problem. But if the owners are the only ones doing it It's also a huge problem. so The huge part of creating compelling experiences is by pairing excellent coffee with excellent culture, training, service, and systems. And that's what we help people do in our wholesale partner program So we work with everyone from single location independent shops to large scale business dining operations and The one thing all our partners have in common is that the experience they create for their guests is paramount We work with people to bring joy to other people and use coffee as their conduit to do that From in person training to access to recipes, service, barflow, and techniques that make creating high quality beverages as simple as possible, we love to share what makes our retail stores sing so that you can have that same level of impact with your guests If you want to se serve CatCloud, there's a link in the description to our wholesale form or you can go to catincloud dot com slash wholesale I wanted a transition. It's like you got that, you got that gif. you start looking at systems and then part of the concept around this whole soil service situation is it's like the coffee comes, it goes through this process and then not only coffee but food and the whole the whole deal. It's like Now now you're kind of charged with taking this thing that we No is the catalyst for everything that we do There's hospitality, there's Now there's coffee and food that kind of are the reason that people come in and drink and be merry here. right? like What did it feel like and look like for you to be like, okay? team You know, we'd like them to be at X level Here's where we're at now. What do we do? What's it look like to do some of the training and the education? Even if What we're going to both collectively say is like we want to go a lot further than we are right now and we have all these things on the table. That's that's one of the I'd say you're yourour blessings and your curses to see all the opportunity. But like what does it look like for you to walk and to teach the team and to train yourself, people from the beginning to being a barista Uh, there's I feel like you said it a lot really well in the beginning where you were talking about like how It's not just about systems, but it's about system Systematizing sounds like such a boring word, but it's like just creating guardrails or support rails that allow you to do what we do best. to inspire connection by creating memorable experiences. And every time you say it and you like systematically say it, it can feel a little bit corny, but the more you champion the values and the mission, every detail you train better your team becomes because They see you speaking it even though sometimes saying it verbatim feels or looks or sounds corny. It's like if you say it with truth and reality and you truly believe, That's That's how they start to really like get reignited and they're like when you ask them to Do something as small as turning the seam of the cup towards yourself and facing the latte to the edge of the counter towards the guest. and why that makes such an impnce? inccredible impact. It's really easy when you systematize a language of like, look, We're looking to make someone's day. We're looking to make them feel taken care of, hospitality.. We're looking to take ownership that this is our responsibility And if we suck at it one day, guess what are like we're always going to try to do better and actively pursue it better. So throughrough that process of systematizing the language or the system or the training SOP always point back to what we're trying to do on a daily basis in like a bigger horizon level goal is what you're like talking about. That's That's what the process looks like. and it sucks because It sucks to do sometimes when people are like, why does every detail have to point towards the mission We were like, because then otherwise, why the hell do we do it Yeah right. Totally. Right. How that's so different versions same question. like what's an example of how you convey that? because the seam of the cup, like right The seam of the cup thing or the placement of the spoon on the saucer and the handle of the for here cup like offset from that. those Without any meaning behind them, those just seem like tedious details. So it's like, who fucking cares? L like my gosh. like does it really matter if the cup is like ninety degrees this way or ninety degrees that way. So it what is Do you ever run into that Or how are you blasting all through that? R For reals. Yeah. All the time One of my favorite stories that I like to tell in training a lot, especially Barissa training is People always say like, why do we get good at La Tera other than it looks pertly. I'm like, because it makes the product you likeike served So incredible to like Take. Aw in that it changes people's day literally and sometimes they'll come in just to treat themselves like drinking a beautiful latte is like treating yourself like beautifully. And if you take that much care into it and I'll talk I always train my I train new baristas with a story about my aunt It has a really hard job And she frequents the Apos cafe and Whenever she has a really, really hard day I always tell like, she comes in here and she comes in and she comes and she always tells me She sends me pictures of everyone's latte art. And of course in my head, I'm like doesn't look good, but to her, it's like the most beautiful thing ever And it takes her from having a really shitty day because she has to deal with a lot of things at work to having the most incredible day all because when she goes up to the counter, she goes, canan I get a heart on my latte? It would really make my day. And the more genuine and true and real you are to my aunt or to any guest Wh actually thinks thats My aunt's just not shy and she'll tell you, but A lot of guests think that and so they come in. Those are the those are like the reasons why we get good at Latte art or Those are the reasons why we put the seam towards us. Those are the reasons why we take the extra second to see if someone needs a napkin. those details amount to those bigger moments Unfortunately, you'll never see You know they're out there because you see us on a Saturday It's slammed Yeah because we care Absolutely Yeah, it's funny because Even just the visual aesthetic Well, like everything you do is sending a signal about who you are and what you believe. Right. A good example is, oh let's say you went to some super fancy restaurant and got a salad for That salad has a bunch of ingredients in it and they're arranged in a particular way so that when you get the plate, you're like, wow, this is really beautiful. I can't wait to eat that. You could take the same stuff Throw it in a bowl, shake it all up and it's the same But it's not at all. So some of it's just sending the signal. like we care deeply about what we do. We take the time to go the extra mile to make you feel this kind of way about feeling You want people to feel good about the money they're spending and experience they're having, you know I don't Sure, we all go to a place to spend money. but I don't like I want the money to be like not the thought. It's like I want to go there because I want this thing and sure I have to exchange this money and like it's perfect But theoney secondary to thing yeah secondary to thing. Yeah, the money's secondary to the thing, but like ultimately I think about it a lot because there's two things that are like time is one, time is the biggest one, and money is the other thing that you're like exchanging on a day to day basis, and you have a choice on how you spend those things and The more I don't know, the further I go in life, the more I'm like the more compelling the thing has to be for me to want to part with either of those things to do it. Yeah. You know, Eespecially when you've had a taste of something awesome. It's like, dude, I am so bummed when I spend seven dollars and get a mediocre cappuccino. I am bummed. Yeah. It's a bummer.. I'm just like so Well It it's hard to watch, but I mean, it happens a like I'm just very frank. It happens a lot at Kat and Cloud. And I think what I think it happens everywhere. I think the difference is Also in retail is not just empowering your team to care about the details, like your team members. to care about the details and the way that they can change Someone's day but also empowering your team leaders or your shift leaders to radically care and radically give feedback in a way where team members are actually excited to change. And that I feel like is the next like peeling of the layer that I I don't feel like I'm the best at yet, but I'm working my butt off trying to really be really good at it. but Peeling the layer back and giving someone the empowerment, someomeone like Assa. Eli and Serena and Jorge, they all have different skills, but really teaching them to be so radical about what we care about and inspiring the team to just do the details and tie it to the mission, that's the next level. And that totally agree. working I mean, that's that I think is honestly the hardest work. and it's true it should be probably our biggest work in terms of especially coffee anyway. It's that The global majority, especially coffee, Or let's say let's say coffee. Coffee, even people who are like, let's go enjoy especially coffee initially care about all the things that we care about. I wish they did, but in order for that to ever happen, so many things need to happen first. We're talking cogs being stuck In order for people to care about that, they have to have an emotional connection to it in some regard. In order to have an emotional connection to it, they need to have an emotional connection to the people who serve it to them first to even begin that trust and they need to get something that makes them have a moment So if that moment is latte art. or flavor or both or that you guys are all really amazing and make them feel away and the coffee is even mediocre You're going in a direction that supports spepecially coffee as a whole. All of those things in some regard leadead us there starts to trust, but then you do need other like it can't just be an evangelist of three. or five to change the especially coffee world. You need to keep these people engaged and show them that their work matters and that they are personally growing, but they're also impacting and affecting And that is that's the goal of the leader. You have to find an individual connection, but you also have to find the teaching moment and You know, I had I'd had a moment that didn't get to be a full teaching moment today where somebody tried to serve me an incomplete package for espresso. And then I'm like, could I please get it with the full serving, the spoon and everything, please? And The follow up to that will be like, Hey, do you know why? It's like You're actually showing the guest that you're not as interested in this product and this experience as I think you are And you might think that I don't care or whatever the case may be, but at the end of the day, whatever you put out just then was not the full package and it's It's saying something. whatever you don't say, you also are actually saying. And so there's so many places to remind people In your own words, I had a coaching conversation as well today where I was like Do you realize that everything you're speaking to is actually speaking to one of our values? And your job is to Remind people that that's a value that lives and breathes here and it means something. It's not specifically always, even though we should saying, like, we inspire connection by creating memorals experiences. Here's why and we actuallyive pursue better and you did a pretty great job eloquently explaining that. The other side of that is to recognize and say, hey, Did you hear everything that I said and how it lines up? Yes. Okaykay. Did you hear through the lines that I don't have to say specifically that we're actively pursuing better, We're taking ownership throw we're going into hospitality artistry and our craft and we're really diving into those things in a way that matters. And do you see the end connected place for not only yourself and your personal development, but the guests walking through the door and how it's all coming together And guess what else Every time you do that, we get to sell a little more coffee and guess what that means. There's people in Honduras in Costa Rica and these places that Therefore their coffee is going into somebody's mouth and they're purchasing it. And guess what? If we can buy more of that, do you realize that you made an effective change in a third world country for somebody that works ten times harder than we ever will just for like an eighth of the amount you'll make today pretty much. This is important and it matters You're getting personal development, you're helping a company, you're helping a community, you're helping a holistic global community all by deciding that you care about this process. It's like Pretty special You don't get to do that at the movie theater. That's not true though. No, it's like, I think that's the I think that's the fallacy about like The um like how different industries work because I think every every No matter where you're at at every level, you have the opportunity to impact a certain amount of people's lives. So sure like at a movie you have no impact on like a coffee farmer Yeah, but you're impacting a different ecosystem. And I think that's like that's to me is the important thing to keep in mind. right There aren't good jobs, bad jobs, high quality jobs, low quality jobs. There's just jobs and like how you approach that job going to impact have way more impact on what the actual job is. So yeah, pending your leadership's good I mean, I mean, no organization. No like like both f like both f. It's just like everybody leadership is important D or sure Yeah But also everybody has a personal choice to make And like you can choose to show up and be Really incredible employee to the best of your ability. Obviously if you have someone showing you like a way that you couldn't find on your own, like you have an like that's an advantage and a bonusus for everybody But I like people have the opportunity to do amazing things. Yeah, you know, And like. I There's some part of me that almost rejects the like, oh, you're helping the farmer in origin because the reality in most situations are it's like someone's buying that coffee. probably someone's buying that coffee And like by disconnecting it from yourself, this is just a different point of view. I'm more like, who am I becoming when I go to work and come home every day? Like what are the opportunities for me to impact the people that I see but also in like improve myself as a professional. and I don't need to know that I'm like impacting a farmer's life to do that. It's like a life to show up for the people right in front of me. Yeah and like make them smile. But who's teaching you that I don't know the leaders Maybe. Yeah to be the leader. No, I think that's I think I think leaders have a great opportunity to like open people's eyes to those things for sure. But I he does. It's either a mentor or a leader prior, right? Unless you just came into the world like one of those people, which is possible for sure. I mean, I think people like Yeah, I mean, there's a million ways to learn. Yeah The point I'm more trying to make is like we don't have to like I think your example is powerful. I don't think we need to extrapolate like ten degrees down the line to make people feel like they're having impact That's fair. You know what I mean? Yeahike that's how I see it. Yeah Yeah, I I like I like where both of you are coming, but I'm like, I really like the perspective because this is how I am and I relate a lot to you when you're saying that is There is some level of me who will always be me because I'm a huge nerd and you'll teach me something and I'll ask you all the questions. They're like, Heang, this guy really like is thinking about it. T there is those type of people in the world and Sure we can inspire other people to really look at all those details, but some of it is who they are But then the other half, I think where Jared's getting at is like someomeone, whether they were a good or bad mentor inspired you. And I think it supports your ideology too. It's like The people like I could have a bad mentor and I'll still be equally as nerdy at something. I'll just that mentor and be like, dude, you don't know shit. Yeah, you don't know shit. I need to go somewhere else. I do not accept yo. It I'll be equally as nerdtyy. Yeah. And whereas like Jared's point is like if you couple someone like myself who's genuinely inspired do something specifically and they have a mentor who's equally as inspiring, That's where you get the fucking like multiplier effect where it's like Boom, boom, oh this place is awesome. And I think that's Part of what we captured here. We try to find people who are really, really inspired about coffee and the hospitality cououpled with leaders who are equally as inspired with hospitalic coffee so much though that when we make mistakes or like we're trying to figure things out, we're genuinely trying to get after it together even if we're like Messing some stuff up. Yeah. That checks out. Yeah. Yeah. ye. But I do agree I do agree with you, like, dude, you got to find the there are people who I love everyone who has come through the doors, but there are people who I've trained and mentored here at Cat and Cloud. I was like, oh, dude this job It's probably going to be a short stint for you you really don't love thisight. And that's where it's like Bak' right. It happens all the time. If you don't love the work that you're doing, you're not going to have a good time regardless of how awesome a place is. Like we've had that before. People come in and they're like, freicaking love it here I want to stay here and I'm like, you I can literally see you being drained every single day doing this work. You like you consistently like find your way. and then we get to these places we all hang out and you're like, yeah, I love it here and it's like back to the drain. Yeah I love it here, back to the drain. And it's like if that's the case It doesn't make sense. That's totally cool. L That's That's something you have to recognize, like what we do is pretty straightforward with a lot of details. but ultimately we utilize coffee for a catalyst for hospitality and experience And we use food as well in some of our locations in That's Oly simplified, but also true. And if you're not trying to make that stuff really good, you're not going to love doing the work, right? And I think most things are like that, right? Simple but not easy. Yeah, you know, the range of coffee shops or the range of restaurants or the range of anything. a range of people coming to do the roof on your house, The range of people coming to paint the walls in your store to retouch it. The fucking guy who washes our windows the best dude. What is that best his attitude is incredible. He's smiling. He makes you feel good. Every time I talk to them, I'm like I feel like This dude just like put me in an awesome state for the day. He's a fucking window washer dude Like I love it when I see him every time and he's in his zone and he works with himself. He doesn't have a big company. He's just doing it. I'm like, this is incredible, dude. Right. Yeah, it's like it's not about the industry or it's not about doing something overly complicated. It's about how you're making people feel how you approach your work. I just love it. so cool So When it comes to the challenge that we face indefinitely, which is trying to find a way to connect people to Especially coffee on some sort of level beyond just like the buy sell, right? We want to try to bring them in a little closer. and bring the team in closer all the time. Like what are some of the challenges and what's it look like when you and the team are working towards You know, that inspiration, that connection. What are some of the things we've done as well Right. I think one of the coolest things that we've done Can I I still don't think we make a big enough deal about this, but every time that I got to do it and I still get to do it every once in a while is Ccierge choice. Concierge choice is one of the most incredible things because you literally get to pick what goes on the menu And I don't think I think Sometimes Cciergeges and bristes don't realize the weight of that And how exciting it could be that you're choosing a coffee to share with every guest who comes in today if they so choose. And I think it's an incredible gift. But on the other end is There's this There's this missing link, which I think Jared tries to get at where The job of the leader is to show the concierge who doesn't know about coffee. Wh this coffee is so exciting. Because if I remember my day my first day, We did a cupping All of them tasted like black coffee to me because I was like, I had no idea Because they were. here Yeah. here this is all black coffee. Yeah ye yeah And I was like, great. Th n of words don'tt And I remember for like a year or two, my teLs tried to teach me about coffee and that looking back, love I love them all. They taught me a lot of different things, but They themselves did not have the intense like detail of why I should care about this coffee And one of the things that I'm like working with the TLs now is We have a lot of coffee launches and this last one was seven cooffees big, which I told'll say was Huge I was like This is going to be a lot of work And we're going to do our best to highlight them all, but going to be tough When I was cupping with my team tried to get them to see a different side of like, sure, this is the process, this is the taste, this is the expression. this is who it's for. It is like Why does it matter like why is this coffee important to your team to learn. What makes it special? What makes it different from that one? Why should they serve this one if they want to have this type of experience And we walked through every single one of those coffees and I could tell it really landed because three weeks later, I asked The team I was like, whyy is this coffee on the menu? And they rattled off the information that I all them. w to three weeks ago and I'm like The job of the leader is to Hlight the product in such a way where their team gets curious and excited to learn something for themselves, like you're saying, right? L what am I doing by learning this product and learning that All coffees from this area when they're wet hold have the specific tastes to it Why is that too much for me? Oh, cool because I get to taste it And now when I have another coffee from that region, I'm like, oh, there's that wet holeing. And it makes you a super cool barista who can identify process even just from smell or taste. But then the next level is, cool, you learned that for yourself Guess who else wants to learn? Yeah The people who walk into the door And now you get to go up to that wall of bags that's nothing but colors and words and you get to tell stories and paint pictures and let people taste them if you have them en concierge choice And you' like You know what I'm not going to talk to you about it. Let's go tast it right now Right And that is a gift. From every like tier. Yeah, the biggest the coolest thing with that, I think, is that it gives the opportunity for the person behind the counter to be an expert. Yeah. And not everybody has, you know, a huge chunk of their day where they get to feel like they're in control or they know everything, but when you do get into it like that and then someone comes to, it's like being the expert bartender or the expert chef You have this knowledge and that knowledge gives you status and it feels good to talk about things that you know about deeply because you're like, I'm I'm helping someone out But I'm kind of in charge here. It feels good for me to be in charge and kind of like I'm running the game right now. like I like that a lot and that's h' it's huge for people. likeike that's a real I don't know, it's a useful experience in so many ways We offer a coffee subscription and there's a couple different paths you can walk down make cappuccinos on and your linea meaker at home You can get the answer, onene of our flagship blends on repeat and have an espresso that's so easy to dial in It should be illegal. It's incredible with milk. It's like you're chewing on a nouga that somebody accidentally sprinkled berries on top of. This is what we use for all our milk based beverages in the cafe and we have it on drip every day. Or maybe you like to mix it up. Maybe you spent five racks on your Weber Worshops EG one. I get it fire up a Raster's choice subscription and you can taste the rainbow. We've got different regions, different processing methods, different varieties. These are the coopees that we love that rotate so you never get bored and always have something fresh in the hopper We envision a world in which businesses put culture first and this is the world that you're helping support by choosing Kat and Cloud for your subscription. There's a link in the episode description or you can just go to catincloud dot com slash subscription. We appreciate you Well it's a multi layered tool as well. because I think the thing that I would love about Eespecially coffee our mission, what we're trying to get out of is we're trying to develop people regardless. So I think what it can do is it can hit on multiple levels. It hits on the level of the person who is only altrist focused who's like, I just want to support and help somebody. I know now the information so I can be confident in that. It's exactly what you're saying, which is like, Yo, I'm a pro and I'm ready to perform and step up and like be in a bit of a spotlight, but it also break people out of their shellves, which is something that You know, ultimately, we're trying to find people who want to come out of their shells in retail anyway and are interested in hospitality and being overly introverted might be a challenge for you in our zones were so busy. att the same time, sometimes it' just confidence related and people want that And so to your point, you're like educating them and you're helping them to see like, Exactly what you're saying, Like I'm a pro. I can do this. and that's the beginning of holistic growth that I think is a big part of the passion for me in this company is you And we've talked about this also from the beginning, right? Chris is like, you want to we want to develop people in such a way where they come out of this place better, right than we found them. That's part of what we've written since the beginning. and That can go into so many facets of something that seemingly is as simple as how do you learn about coffee? you know How do you become a good barista? These are like skill sets that translate because you're learning to be organiz There's things that you don't evencon and of sudden you, I'm different in my life outside of work because of this stuff I learned at work. And that stuff is like That's, I think, why I like to try to connect it to all these big places because you get to see Hopefully over time that it's true, which is It is unequivocally, in my opinion whether it's the most important thing to you, that's up to you, but you do walk away from this place with the ability to communicate with individuals better, hopefully a better relationship with yourself, new skill sets, new confidence, obviously, a lot more knowledge And what we're doing translates into every industry regardless of what you want to do with the rest of your life. And you become this she in, in my opinion of like people connected to people in like these soft skills that are actually the most important skills, to be calm soft skills because I don't know why we actually call them soft skills if I' hest withither like the most important thing, but You leave with these skills that allow you to connect with people anywhere And that is like I think it's something that's really freaking insane that can happen And that's, I think through the charge of the leaders to' point people to that. likeike this is happening for you regard If you are willing to be a part of this and to get better This is happening for you and it will be a big deal in the long haul Hi, Casey. What up. Casey has a question Yeah, I feel like there's a lot of layers that we were talking about there earlier. You know, no, no, it's a great question, but it's recentering It goes back to, well, okay, firstly I' just like to acknowledge I just really liked the way you said it L The job will be as cool and as interesting and as professional as you make it. So just shout out to you, Chris Baca because it's just true You got to show up and care. at what you do. and I think part of it, I do want to put on the team member is like if you don't care about the job that you're doing right now, go find a different gig. because obviously this, it's never going to it's just not going to get great for you Ultimately, I also want to acknowledge that there's a facet to it where it's As a leader, you have to take ownership over the fact that you're creating an experience for a team member to learn something And that is your job. So I look at our team members as my guests and our guests And I think part of that is what kind of experience am I creating for a concierge to learn about coffee such that they feel like the expert and they feel empowered to make recommendations and feel cool, but also to keep them in line to what we need to do as a business or as a service model, right It's finding systems that allow for autonomy in a really cool way. and that's really hard to do Insanely hard. That's the magic. If ye, that is the hard, right? They have to be They can't be rigid, but they have to be clear. Right. And that is It's where we kind of look at concepts like we make people feel taken care of and it's like That's a window. That's a window. There's a system behind some of this, which is seven steps of service or two step rule or power to please. like those are systematic things you're able to do while trying to make someone feel taken care of, right? And then there's all those details. Remember to face the cup. Remember to work on lotsier. Those are coaching though, right? You can't expect somebody to be perfect out the gate. That's development stuff and why it matters. in my that's how how I look at it And there's probably other ways to look at it as well. but That's how And there' and there's more, right? We have more systems than just What I mentioned in those three kind of simple ideas. Yeah. but there's more and then There's a lot of gray And that gray still needs to be like we make people feel taken care of as well as like the four other specific kind of approaches via our values that we put into retail. Frameworks. The gray is the fun part. like making the gray fun part is is the part where you You can't Can't like control the connection, the connection just happens organically But the framework is what allows it. And a lot of times, I think When you look at places, you're like Well, there's too many rules here. I'm like, well, if there is a lot of rules and they're inhibiting connection, then there is too many rules. But if there's the right amount of rules where Like I think you said it best is like the seven steps of service I do seven things every single time I help a guest at Cat and Cloud. But none of those things Tell me how I get to interact Sometimes I'm really sarcastic with guests. Sometimes I'm very kind of over the top Like you're like, who this guy. Other times I'm soft and quiet And there is no script. It's literally, I do seven things for you. And if I stay in that system, I get to play with everything else and reminding people that It team members that between those seven things, you get to have as much fun as you want or as little as you want. Ands that's a choice you get to make as a team member And if you're not making it fun, then it's like you're not gonna to have fun, the guest is not going to have fun That like that's a whole different thing That's on you, bro. Yeah ye. I did want to say that, but it was like I don't think I need to you. knnock the mic off right now. This is so yep Enjoyment is key too. Yeah There's there's just the systems really allow for your team to have on. And that's where I think why I started this conversation with systems. because your systems allow your team to enjoy what's going on. One of the biggest things we did My teLs are learning to Hm not be as present at every site And it's a skill they're starting to develop And one of the things that they realize is that, oh, I can't do it all And'm like, no, you can't anymore. it's just Pro probably couldn't it before. Yeah, you probably couldn't before. and This weekend we spent I mean, this last week, we spent a huge amount of time prepping for this really large weekend. I asked them questions, I'm like, how are you going to account for this? How are you going to countount for that? How are you going gonna count for this? How are you going to count for that? How are youre gonna to countount for this? And we just went down a huge laundry list and I was like, look We're doing all these things So when we go to the weekend Guess what our team, all they have to do. is they get to show up, they get to wear an apron, they get to talk to a guest, they get to make them coffee and have fun while doing it and meeting a bunch of new people. And that's our job. like That's our conviction of why we have to go through these huge lists or these huge reports. where we were doing some crazy math if US in our Sweet Street kitchen We had to order We had to order. Five thousand eggs We had to order half a ton of potatoes. And half a ton. And we had to figure out how to order it in the appropriate amount so we can fit it in the kitchen such that we don't create problems for our team members. 'cause if our team members have to deal with those problems, guess what they're not gonna want to do. Totally stress 's They're not going to want to go to the guest. So we have to do the job of creating system structures so they get to do the part or get inspired to do the fun part, the fun part is engaging with. Well, maybe you think the fun part is ordering five thousand eggs That was't the part for me. And I think that's job that I for somebody For for somebody, but that's not the job that I like to do exactly thousand. I like to sell the five thousand eggs and make you five make you two thousand burritos. Herman is not in the procurement business. That was real life math in case you wantan to do it. Yeah quQite literally, the numbers were pretty close to that more or less More or less byy a thousand. Yeah It's a lot of burritos. Do that that feels Dad on ya I'd say you answer the question well, my friend. Its more an articulate gentleman than you are. Yeah. I think one of the reasons people don't have autonomy at work is because of a lack of higher level mission and vision Like it's It's a system, right? The system's set up guardrails They'll tell you what to do. But if you don't know why you're doing it, then you don't know how to maneuver through things that live outside the systems. So powerful, most powerful human motivation. It's like fear Being scared will drive a lot of behavior. Owners are scared because they don't want to lose money. They want to control as much as possible. They took a huge risk by going out on a limb to open this thing and they want to keep that tight clamp everything down and then without the without having that openness and bigger picture You know movement that you're contributing to. You're just like a robot, right? You just turn into a robot and then You come into work, you're unempowered It's just it's like a bad downward spiral. And I think those things are important together because know, E everybody wants some level of autonomy too, but you can't have autonomy in a vacuum You know, you can't just run around do whatever you want. like it needs to be guided. So I'm allergic to buzzwords, so and people are like, I need more autonomy at work. I'm like, u You either have some really big goals in vision or you're just a lazy sck of shit. I can't figure out which one yet. We're gonna see what's going on. T be determined I think one of the things that's making me think of is like I keep saying systems. what I really should say is systems, if we're trying to think about workplace culture, I think a really important word in culture is tradition or like rules. And if you think about any great cultures or systems or beauty that happens in cultures or societies They're all based on systems or guidelines that are built. It's weird to say that your business is a culture, but your business is a culture. And and the systems are the culture. They are the guidelines of how to exist inside this society. and As a business owner, sometimes or as like a manager or as a leader, or even as a team member, you have to realize like all these rules are here for a reason. What's that reason And that's how Host how you tie yourself back to it like Chris Bach Eactly. What's your ultimate goal Th do glorious things secondcond jot. That was Thanks team U I think about that thing a lot where you like year that like grips like it causes you to kind of clamp down I think that's like sort of I would think about that and I mean, that's sort of a Like it's all about control, right? And the comfort of that control If you feel like you don't have control, you're squeezing much harder. And that's when you lose a lot of things, whether that's in you lose control when you squeeze that hard Think about it in sports Tennis Uh golf playing with drums, if you squeeze the thing too hard, you don't there's like that sweet spot of like controling your wrist. If you're trying to ride the skateboard, if you're tense, you're tight, you're not flowing, you're going to probably make a mistake This would happen in the classroom. if you're like, I can't I must wield The power. I must hold ont too it kids will rebel. they won't there won't be flow. So I think there's that kind of like that sort of a energy that can kind of come from leadership U you know, people feel like they have some space to hit that that comfort zone, that sw spot to work, but, you know, they also know that they're contained their work they know what sort of boundaries to work in I think that's where they can you know can thrive. So it's interesting to try and create those structures to allow for that. Anyway, a thought Yeah Hell yeah. there. no the podcast is ripped. We we've gone into it with our friend Herman What do you what do you foresee is some awesome opportunity that We've kind of talked about a lot, but let's say either for Us moving forward or in general, that is great opportunity that anybody can grab onto that you've learned over these last eight and a half years when it comes to education direction that maybe we haven't talked about. If we have, it's going to be like totally I can't think of anything else but what are some of those opportunities that you see in the future for anybody that they might be able to grab that you're learning that maybe we're integrating or that you're just thinking about as Herman. Head of retail Eight and a half years Champion salesperson. Yogi. No Culinary master T Tomatillo. Tomatillo entter. No, no, Burrito inventor, Nicole actually made the tomatillo salsta. I've been lying to people for's a. Yeah, yeah, yeah That's all right Sorry Nicole. Yeah, we would love you Nicole A I'm not exactly certain. I understand the exact question I'm sorry. Sokay. there Is there anything that is there anything that you look to in terms of hunger on the horizon that you're working that you're either working towards integrating that takes us to the next level that might be Helful for others to hear as well. You know, what are things maybe that are on your mind for development when it comes to education, progression, any of the above And if you've already thought you' talking about it, great. like I think we covered it, man. What's next for Herman I just I think one of the cool things that I Learning to really help my team understand is It feels really corny, but Whenever you're faced with something that seems impossible It's why it's possible It's like literally one more thing on your to do list. that you have to figure out how to cleverly integrate. And that's something that I I don't know how to teach people because it takes a certain amount of tenacity and grit to really look at and I think Part of it is I'm teaching them I've been working with the TOs a lot because they're starting to have more free time to think about these higher level ideas Yeah other team leaders by the way. is they get time to think And I'm like, that time is actually really important. And protecting that time is super important because it actually allows you to problem solve. and trying to help them understand that they can't fill their two do lists to the brim and expect to be successful because you have to program an hour or two of thinking time a day, whether that be You know, one of my biggest times that I recently been enjoying a lot is like back to work. and I I love my wife But she came with me the other day while I was biking to work and we biike next to each other. And I was like, o wow, I'm really annoyed that you're talking to me right now I know this is my thinking time. Yeah, this is my thinking time and it it's the times where I come up with some of the craziest ideas when faced with adversity. Yeah is you go into these Zones of all right, how is this not adversity? How is this part of the process? And how do we make it really, really fun and cool? Creating that intentional time for yourself as a leader is really hard to do because You're so used to dooo dooo dooo dooo dooo dooo, but there's like a thinking and processing period that every leader needs to do in order to make something really, really cool. You like need to make the thing Walk away from it even for a day and come back to it and be like, all right, is it perfect or is it good O is it shit Right? Like where are we at with it And that's something that I'm learning to teach my leaders You've seen so many different you know, seasons of Cat and Cloud and gone through so many different things here yourself. If you're setting goals for you, if you're looking, you know just a year into the future How would you know if you had a good year or not? What are some markers of success for you? Professionally, personally. Whatever you want to share, either one One of my favorite ideas for myself is I think we do an inc incredible job here at Caton Cloud and Like praising you, Chris. and and carry it in Charles for what you've done But one of the things that I think would make me the proudest of myself over the next year or two is taking this culture that we've created here and doing it in such a way elsewhere that It's just as palpable whether you're too your point goingoing to see a movie going to personally M scout somewhere going to Doct's office creating an experience where the cat and Cloud culture doesn't live in a vacuum at Cat and Cloud. but it lives as a system or a way of doing business that extrapolates beyond just selling coffee to someone. And I think one of the things that would make me proud is creating a different experience that proves that what we do here can be done elsewhere. Yeah mhm What is it though? because that's a big picture idea What is it? What are you going to do? You got a year. What are you going to do? Okay, are you it it is it like theoretical or like I just trying to get. here's here's what we're going to do. Okay Really Let's we. We're going to create a I was just I shared this place that I saw in San Francisco recently that kind is getting at it I want to sell Mexican street food. If you all know what a garnacha is, look it up. If you don't know what a garnacha is, look it up. must have. It is Mexico street food in such a way that it makes you feel like when you walk up, if you ever been to Mexico City like there's Street food everywhere And when you walk up, someone's warm to you, nice to you, and it feels like they're like they're hosting you in this like tiny little little space, but you're literally Cars are zooming by. peopleeople are honking, it's loud, it's crazy feels homey and I really want to recreate that experience. inside a space that makes it feel like someone is getting like this really intimate like Mexican home cooked meal ot and curated with like maybe coffee, but like refreshments and just really like sitting down at a table almost like at a counter side. And it's really fun and It it's just beautiful. Where do you want to do it I I wish I would say like I really want to do it in Santa Cruz, but I'm looking at the the freaking prices here. If we could like if we could find a great deal here, I would do it here. I really do love Santa Cruz, but It's looking like we got to be a big city. It's got to be a big city Uh It's got to be in a neighborhood is like area where there's like a little bit of hustling and bustling down their way, but like it could be a little bit of escape around the corner.. I don't want it to be big. I want my lines to be long, which is opposite of what we do here. C gllad we try to get through that line. fine ye. But when you get into the space It's it's what you want it to be. It's like, this was worth my hour wait. Yeah Totally man. canan't wait to go' not justess Roll that R buddy or get out of here, h right Well That's been Herman Head of retail Cotter Nache,. Jord in there and future dreamer I appreciate your time and all of everything else that I already know that you know that I love about you Oh you. Thanks for giftinging the time, dude. Have a glorious one out there, everybody. Here f Well that'. All right everyone, that's the podcast for this week If you've got something culture, coffee or business related that's tickling your brain and you want us to shine a light on it, you can send us an email to podcast at catandcloud. comot There's also a podcast page on our website. If you scroll to the bottom of that page, you can record a voice message for us with your questions or comments. But be warned We will play your beautiful voice on our podcast unless you tell us not to. Our website is also a hub for all things Cat and Cloud, including coffee. If you're looking For somewhere to start, you don't know where that is. The answer, our flagship blend is a great go to coffee. We use it for all of our milk based espresso beverages in the cafes, and we always have it on as a brewed coffee option. It's super easy to pull for all you home espresso wizards. 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