Applying Flow State to Daily Life

Hi there everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Cloud Based Mayhem. And a very different, very cool show for you today that I think all of you will get a lot from and help your performance in the sky and on the ground . Many thanks to Kevin Booker who put this guest in front of me, uh reached out a few months ago, longtime listener, and sailplane pilot who we've had on the show, but Kevin said, hey, you gotta get Brett Birchard on on the show. And I thought, I don't know who that is. And he told me about his recently published book called Catching Confetti, Developing the Mindset of a Champion. And I got the book and read it and was really impressed and kind of blown away. And Brett is a former NBA coach and worked for the Suns and has been involved in basketball his entire life. He grew up in a basketball family. His his father is a very famous coach and player. And he noticed when he was when he got into the coaching rank, especially at the really high levels in the NBA, that there was something different between the really top tier guys, you know, Steph Curry and Kobe Bryant and uh and others and the the gu ys that were just below them, you know, so they were the guys that were playing four to six minutes a game. They weren't the starters, but they had all the talent, they had all the drive, uh they'd been playing their whole lives, they had uh the work ethic and the desire , but for some reason they were not complet ely able to crack the code. And you know, at that level in the MBA, you've got nutritionists and psychologists, you've got everything, but uh and certainly the coaching and the time and the talent and the size, but there was something that just held this other group back and it was the mental side. It was the mindset. You know, Steph Curry could just make absurd shots over and over and over again because of the confidence, because of flow state, uh, because of the lack of fear and he really dived into why why did these other guys not have it and could they learn it and of course he discovered they could and so he developed a whole training regimen and a mental training regimen to help these athlete athletes out. And turns out this there's a lot of connections with you'd be surprised with flying and the NBA because what we do is mostly mental of course and and there's a lot of threads here and to just general life and just being a better human, better husband, better wife, better uh father. So uh I found this just a really fun talk to learn about mind set and the difference between mindset and mindfulness how you can fly find flow and prepare to get into flow it's not something you achieve it's just something you relax into. So we've talked a lot about flow on the show, but Brett is a real expert in getting there and what happens when you get out of it, how to get back into it, how to utilize it, not in just extreme situations or high-level sports, but just in life. We talk about the kind of transcendence of flow in this one. We talk about accidents and recovery. You know, can it can you come in it too fast? Uh what does it look like? How to do it? You know, it's of course in the MBA. If you have a an accident, the the people sitting right next to you on the bench are gonna take your spot. So there's a lot of stress there and there's often a desire to come back uh too fast and to skip a lot of the lessons that are involved in that and that there was really a lot of that that struck a chord with me because of course in our sport the risks are very different than in the NBA. Obviously injury is a big one in the NBA but you're not often gonna die because of a mistake . So uh anyway, we really rift on that and it was a lot of fun to to explore the various aspects of of recovery and coming back. We talk a lot about fear, how important it is, but also trying to understand the difference between irrational fear and wisdom. And we talk about ego and the place of ego and how the ego can both be supportive and destructive in terms of performance and many other things. Just had a blast with this, really appreciated the the the chance to talk with someone who was is not a pilot but obviously someone who is uh explored and div ed into and is coaching and teaching things that are so relevant to what we do in the sky both as pilots and as people . Enjoy. This is a lot of fun. Enjoy this chat with Brett Berthard, the author of Catching Confetti Brett, thanks for coming on the show. I've just finished up your book, Catching Confetti , and I'm really psyched that Kevin Booker, a mutual friend of ours, connected us. You know, he's a sailplane pilot, he's been on the sho w. I don't have many non pilots on the show. You know, your your journey has been in coaching and in the NBA and writing great books about flow and mindset, so we're gonna get into all that. But uh welcome to the show. I really appreciate your time. I enjoyed having a conversation with you last week. We were kind of getting ready for all of this, but I think this is gonna be a lot of fun. Yeah, cool. Thanks for having me. Jumping into uncharted waters here a little bit, but I'm excited to learn from you and and have a interesting conversation on mindset and flow states and elite performance and and how all those things come together and draw out the best of us. So thanks for having me on. Yeah, I'm really excited for it. Let's let's spend just a few minutes here on how the world got us together. What what is your what has been your journey? You've spent I think most of your career in the MBA in coaching and then you know bring us to how you ended up writing this book with your co-author. It wasn't just you, but take us through that journey a little bit. Yeah, so my background is is primarily in basketball. I'm a son of a coach who had a very successful career, Hall of Fames, championships, name on the floor, all that stuff. And so I was born into the profession, raised in the gym, been around basketball my whole life, and I was really started on that journey early, early on, got into the coaching profession, following dad's footsteps a little bit and found my way into the NBA. So I've coached for professionally for over 16 years, NBA, you know, minor leagues, college , so various levels. And it was really during my time in the NBA that I started getting interested in the mental side of the game. And watching these guys, you know, just being around elite performers, like best in the world at what they were doing, and seeing like, all right, these guys are different, different than me, different than other people I've been around before. And and so I started learning from them and just seeing what what made them tick and and what they were working on and focusing in. And then at the time I was in the NBA, there was really a gap in in the mental side of the game as far as development goes. It's getting more commonplace now. But at the time, I mean, our our staffs, they had course skills coaches and strategy coaches and had athletic trainers and strength coaches working on their bodies, working on their skills, working on the strategy. But there was really nobody giving them focus on the mental side of the game. And I started thinking this is a real opportunity here because I was noticing it as a separator. You know, the guys I was working with weren't necessarily the starters or the stars of the team. I was working with some of the role players, the rookies, the sophomores, the guys trying to break into the league, the guys that are trying to stick, you know, the guys that might only get four to six minutes a game and they had to make that moment count. Um it's just like, okay, how can I help these guys, aside from making them better shooters or improving their ball handling, how can I help these guys take the next jump in their career? Cause the reality in in the in a place like the NBA, you know there's so many talented players like there they choose what 12 15 all-stars a year 20 all-stars a year but there's probably a couple hundred all-star talented level players in the NBA, but there's a difference in mind set. And that was separating like the really great ones from the guys who were hanging on. So you're saying the technique and the ability and athleticism and and all the things that you think about in an athletic sport like the NBA, they're they're they're more or less equals. It's this little thing it's this mental part that was the separator ? For sure. Here's a guy on our team that's like the best shooter in the gym on any given day. But when the lights come on and you're in the moment and you've got one shot to decide your fate. Do you make it or miss it? And could he perform in that moment? Like here's a guy that could jump out of the gym. He was more athletic than anybody in the league, but he couldn't apply that to what was going on in the game. Here's a guy who was great until failure hit. And he couldn't recover under failure. And it would knock him off balance. He was too easily knocked off bal ance. He couldn't recover quickly. And so that hurt his hurt his ceiling and his potential. And so in my role, I was a development coach and I I just naturally like my own mindset is like okay I can teach how can I teach this how can I help people learn this I wasn't gonna settle for oh one guy's got it and the other guy doesn't it's just your DNA you know so I started digging in how can I help these guys improve the mindset? Even if they can't get to the elite level, can they get to their best level? And so I started studying it, got deep into flow states, mindset, and then and then got connected with a guy in Ohio who's now a business partner of mine and and we wrote the book together where we started really deciphering, okay, what's what's the operating system happening beneath the surface, like our subconscious mind , that's really driving us under pressure and under stress. And so we started diving deep into that, applying it to athletes and high performance. And that's what produced the book, Catch and Conf etti, where we're just trying to offer a template and a guide for how to how to develop your own mindset to the to the best it can be. You know, help me convince my listeners, because they're they're probably going, okay, how does the MBA connect to flying? And you just said something, you know, flow state is something that's a really common theme on the show, so I think they're getting it, but you know, in in an MBA player's it in the in a game or something, you miss a shot, uh, that could you could you could blow the game. But you're not gonna but the the the risk is different. It's a massive amount of risk, especially for these guys that you're saying that are they've got this four to six minutes to to make something, to make the team, to stay on, to make a mark, you know, not just be a fleeting glimpse through their career at the you know that that it's not ending it's just starting but help me connect the dots you know i i know you're not a pilot but i i'm i'm seeing i'm seeing a lot of synergy between you know tak,ing that shot under enormous pressure and stepping off stepping off a mountain into enormously strong conditions, for example. I mean, it just a lack of focus for a brief second can be literally fat al.. Yeah That's the separator, right? And in your world, it's it's physical fatal fatal. Like it's life or death. Literally, there's a physical danger to it. In in in a basketball world, not as much a physical danger as much as you know, an insecurity or an emotional risk. You know, these guys I was working with in the NBA are putting themselves out there on display , vulnerable, exposed, fac ing the most intense competition under the most scrutiny that they're ever going to experience. So every time they put themselves out, like every time they show up to a game and step on the court, there's this like vulnerability that they're exposing themselves to to be judged by others, to be criticized. You know, we have a saying in in basketball, like the competition always tells you the truth. Like when you step out on the court, you're gonna learn real quick. Are you good enough? Are you bad enough? Where's your weakness? Where's your strengths? Like and at the NBA level, it's ruthless, it's relent less. You know, if you have a weakness, they're gonna expose you yeah to the whole world. And then it's gonna be on Twitter afterwards and it's gonna be on Sports Center and ESB like so there's this an emotional risk that that plays into it. But so so not the not the physical risk, but you're still like in these moments of pressure, whether it's a physical pressure, you know, physical danger, or there's an emotional risk, you're looking at how can I be at my best when the moment matters the most ? And and both of those things can distract you, can take you out of the moment, um, can can cause you to be less than your less than your best, whether it's a physical fear or it's you know it's a intangible emotional fear. And so these guys you know whether you're flying whether you're playing basketball if you're if you're trying to get to the best of your abilities whether you're just trying to be a good husband or good a father, like you're trying to to get the best of your abilities. It's like how do I quiet my mind and and and tone down the that subconscious mind that's that may be distracting me from my best self so I can be at my best in the in the most important moments . And is this your your template you talk about, you talk about the seven mindsets in your book? How how do you start? You so you you've got this guy first day you insanely talented you can tell he's just he's just a he's just smidging away from being a Kobe Bryant or something but he needs that where do you start him on that template? Where do you start? How do you how do you help him focus or unfocus from what he needs to be doing? Yeah. The the the place we start is is kind of a diagnostic. You can be self-diagnostic. We have a measurement tool we use, but it's it's it's trying to figure out like what is the real fear underneath. Like we can say, oh, I've lost my confidence, or you know, I just I don't have confidence, I lose folks, whatever. There's there's an underlying fear or insecurity that drives our actions, our reactions, our decis ions under stress and under pressure. And so we try to really quickly drill down to what is that underlying insecurity or fear that is that is kind of ruminating beneath the surface . And this happening at a subconscious level. So we have to really peel back some layers to to get down to the, you know, to the core of that. Um but but that's what we're looking for. Yeah. Is the opposite of that confidence? I mean is that is that the Steve Curries and the Kobe, do they do they not have that fear or how would you compare? Yeah, so they those guys have learned how to you know I wouldn't say they don't have that fear, they they do have the fear. They've learned how to reframe every moment to quiet that insecurity that may be there. Okay. You know, Steph Curry was like the the poster child for me when I first got into this because you know he was at the peak of his career at the time and just doing things that are like unheard of. Like how is he making that shot? How is he pulling this off? And looking so like relaxed and poised and you know, and it just he he embodied that flow state mindset. And so he was the poster child for me is like how do I get other people to to um to adopt that like to figure out how to develop that mindset and here's the here's the thing about these these guys the guys who perform well under pressure, it's not they don't have a special DNA, you know, they got it, you don't. The guys who can perform well under pressure don't feel the press ure . Really? Which is a wild thing to think, right? And and this can be a learned state, but I'll I'll tell you a quick story. So LeBron James was had joined the Miami Heat. You know, this is when they joined the big three, him, Dwayne Wade, Chris Bosch. And you may remember like the opening press conference, he was like, you know, this big promise, like, not one, not two, not three, we're gonna win four, five, six championships. Like these big, it was this big thing, right? And then it didn't start well, you know, that dynasty, so to speak. They actually like went to the finals and they lost. And then the next year they're back in the Eastern Conference Finals, so the semifinals of the of the playoffs, and they're playing against Boston Celtics at home, and they lose , and now they got to go to Boston on the road for an elimination game. If they lose in Boston they're eliminated from the playoffs. Two years in a row they haven't won a championship. It'll likely destroy the dynasty, probably kill LeBron's legacy. Like there's a lot riding on this thing. And he's going into Boston, which Boston is a basketball town. The Celtics are like have so much history. They love 'em. So they are ruthless. They are ruthless. LeBron would say any time I got to Boston, like as soon as I landed, I could just feel it in my bones. Well, he said this particular time when he landed in Boston, he said I felt not hing . I felt nothing. He went on to have like one of the greatest playoff performances of his life. They won that game. They end up winning the series. They go on to win the championship that year. The rest is history. But these guys who can perform well under pressure, they just they don't feel the pressure. They're so in the moment. That subconscious mind is quieted down. That insecurity is not driving them in the moment. They're just they're fully present, fully engaged. And would you say that LeBron when he landed he was already in a flow state? Was what you you you said something that I uh that I hadn't heard before. Maybe this was in Rise of Superman, but you can't achieve flow state, you relax into it. Yeah, a hundred percent. You you know, and this is the mistake I think a lot of guys, a lot of high performers and athletes make is they're trying to obtain it. I gotta get it. They're striving to it. They're they're struggling to get there. And it's not that's not how flow works. Like you receive it. And so the work we do with athletes is not about hacking into flow as much as it's positioning yourself to receive it. And part of that is quieting the mind. Part of that is your your processes and your routines leading up to it. And so it's it's it's a receive state. It's a relaxed state. You're not going to you for basketball players, you know, I have a lot of them come up to me like, I have lost my confidence. And they're trying so hard to get their confidence back. And they're putting so much pressure on every shot. And every shot becomes an indictment on do am I confident now or am I not? Like they've put all of their identity, all of their belief on the result . And that's giving them feedback on am I allowed to be confident today or not? And uh um it's it's this striv ing that keeps them stuck. And so what we really try to do is help them relax their mind, relax into a state, position your state, position yourself to to receive that And is it how do you teach a lack of striving in people with egos the size of the moon, I would imagine, right? I mean they're they're I I I'm just picturing myself in the body of somebody who is just how how do you not go but what if I miss? What if I don't make that I mean that's hard. That's some serious mental training. A lot of mental training. Because it is our natural state, especially with high achievers, where you think if I work hard enough I'll get there. And that's the that's the mindset that I've been that's been like drilled into our psyche from a young age. Sure, work hard. Just work harder. Just work harder. Just strive more. Just give more effort. Um so it's very counterintuitive. And it's hard to break that break that default mindset. But once they figure it out, it's it's it's a game changer for sure. Tell me about I mean I I think it might be too much to go through all seven mindsets, but what there must be three or four that are these are the ones these are or is it is it pretty equal? I mean do you give twenty percent to each one? I mean when you're when you're when you're taking this fictional player that we're talking about that that you're you're he's in the B squad, you need to get him as a starter, and he's got all the tools. It's just here, it's just up in his head. What what are the three that you find in your co-author found that, okay, these are the ones Yeah. Really the foundational concept is this is is a focus on where are you placing your identity ? And that's the the core of a lot of our work. And so what we find in in in most of the people we work with that are struggling in those moments, it's they have placed their full identity on the outcome and the results. Either it's the results become an indictment on who I am. Either I'm a failure in my mission or I don't belong in the community anymore. And so our brains are just are like biologically evolved to we're constantly obsessed around two questions. Am I doing a good job and do they like me? And everything we're experiencing, we're filtering it through this lens. Am I doing a good job? Do they like me? Do they approve of me? Was I good enough? Did I meet the scorecard? And that's driving this this insecurity . So like we don't know this is happening. It's happening in little tiny ways, it's happening in big ways, but we're constantly like posturing and and positioning ourselves to prove that we're doing a good job and we belong in the community. Or we're we're hiding, we're withdrawing, so we can't be invalidated. No one can say that I wasn't good enough, no one can say that I didn't belong. I worked with a with a first round draft pick, rookie, he's projected to be a great player. He really struggled with shooting. And that was the piece that I was supposed to help him with. We came into the gym early before anybody else got there, and we were doing elementary drills, like just rewiring and reformatting his form . And it's it's a little bit humiliating. It's a little embarrassing. Like here's a professional athlete, first round draft pick, supposed to be a star. And he's doing he's doing foundational stuff. And so Gavin was crazy. Every time we would be in the gym by ourselves working on this, as soon as someone else walked in the gym, I'm sorry, I gotta go to the bathroom. Oh man, I'm like, I'm not really like my arm's a little sorted. I'm not really feeling it. He'd shut it down. Wow. Huh. Because the insecurity that's driving his mindset right now is if I'm seen doing these elementary drills, that means I don't belong. Wow. That means I'm not good enough. I'm not validated for my draft stat us or the potential that people have have placed on me. And so he'd hide. He'd withdraw. Wow. He'd he'd bail from the situation . And he never got good enough at shooting to stay in the league. No way. But he had it. You know, going overseas and he had it. He had the chance. He had the talent. He didn't have the mindset to be able to address the skills that he needed to because he was so worried about protecting his identity, protecting this false narrative or this false perception about who he was. Rather than having the humility to say, Who cares? I need to work on this skill. Yeah. Yeah. I need to work on this skill. It's not an indictment on who I am. It's just about me improving my skills. And so, you know, the the false mindset there that's that shows up all the time that's like that leads to this insecurity is the results of my performance, my belonging in the community are an indictment on who we are. And so the mindset we have to reframe is you're not defined by what you do, you're not defined by what who you're in relationship with. If you can find a secure identity, now we've developed the resilience to learn from failure, from mistakes, process through what's happening in mission. Now we have the resilience to uh process through relationships that may be struggling or we need to have harder conversations, you know , relationships that may be changing or broken. But with that secure identity, uh we have the resilience to to withstand all of that. Is there a mindset in your list of sevens, is there one that's dangerous to have too much of? Is is there is there an is there an over is there an over achieving achievement in mindset ? Yeah, that's a great question. I wouldn't say I wouldn't say that. I think it's it's all based on on you know that start. Do you have a secure identity? I have nothing to prove, I have nothing to hide, I know who I am, and from there we can we can build the the structure or the rest of the mindsets around that. So yeah, it it starts it all starts with that foundation. And I think what happens is if you're trying to build the other mindsets around um around an insecure identity without that foundation , I would answer your question is yes, you could you could go astray. But if you're built on that foundation, now we're just layering in processes and systems to help you sustain that. um and and and grow your resilience, grow your ability to relax under those pressure moments. The psychology this really lands with me and then in that you know this uh having this your identity attached to what you're doing rather than who you are. I mean I I think in paragliding we've all seen you know some very elite pilots kind of have meltdowns if uh this race I told you about I've actually got the hat on right here that that I've competed in four times uh one of our best in the sport in this in the last edition there was a really quite quite a nasty day where, you know, the y everybody flew but it was really dicey and and he just pulled out of the race, decided it was it was too much 'cause he had had a pretty scary incident in the race before and he really didn't need he he he's an incredibly fit guy. He could have just walked that day and still been in the race. But he was just mentally, it was too much. And I haven't interviewed him about this, but I'm imagining one of the mental things that was too much was not just the risk side, but this is who I am. This is how the community defines me as an elite Red Bull X Alps athlete. And I imagine you know the demons he was struggling with when he pulled out of the race was along those lines was not just hey this isn't worth risking my life, which is everybody totally understands, but but this is who I am. And how's my community gonna see me now ? Yeah. And if I can't live up to the standard that that they perceive me at, how does that define me? You know? That's uh the the physical risk, physical danger is is real and legitimate in your world and it has to be taken into account. Um you know the other side of that is like , you know, what we what we do with athletes is is it's called a scenario switching exercise. It's like, okay, if you can walk up to the to the precipice to the starting gate to wherever it is and and imagine how this race goes this is so so counterintuitive to to typical mindset training because most people tell you to like imagine the perfect race, right? Everything going smoothly, like the perfect outcomes. And we actually do an exercise where we're in a match it going poorly . What is the worst possible outcome here? What could happen? Aside from death. Okay, let's take that one off the table. But let's say you don't perform your best. Let's say you crash and survive, but you don't finish well . Now look in the mirror, who are you? Who are you? What's your identity? What does this moment say about you? And then we'll do what we call it scenario switching. Do the opposite. Okay, go into the race and see it go perfectly. Now stand in front of the mirror, and who are you ? And if those two scenarios are like drastically different, how you see yourself, that's a clue that okay, our identity is misplaced here. We are putting our identity on the results and and that's where starting place for us to work on. Um we we had a player if I told you his name, you'd you'd know it but, he came through Phoenix on a pre-draft workout. And there had been stories written about him, just profile pieces, that he was like really big into meditation and and mindfulness and all this. We came into our workout and he was billed as a great shooter and he missed every shot in the workout. Like you started feeling bad for him. You're like, I know you can make shots. You I know you're a better shooter than this. And he missed every single one. And this is like a tryout, you know, are we gonna draft this kid or not? And so you started feeling bad for him. And and the coach stopped him and he's like, he's like, you've imagined this workout before, haven't you? He's like, Yeah. Done a lot of mental work on it. He said, You didn't imagine it going like this, did you? He said, No . He couldn't recover. He had only seen it going perfect. He only seen it going well. And now it wasn't going like he imagined it and there was no there's no way for him to recover. He had put his identity on his performance in this workout and and now it didn't go like he thoug ht. And now it becomes an indictment on who he is. He can't get out of the rut. You know, old samurai warriors, you know, they go into battle, and the first there what they're doing before they enter battle is imagining their death. Imagining as bad as it can. If I can be at peace with this going poorly, then I can fight with no fe ar. I'll be okay. Um , and so yeah, that's what they would do before before battle. Let me imagine my death. I I come at peace with that, and then and then I can fight with no fear . I I one more story to illustrate it. Um you know the the Bulls Chicago Bulls dynasty in the nineties with Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen , they were going for the three-peat three championships in a row and they were actually down they were I think they lost maybe going into game seven against the Indiana Pacers to make it to the finals. So again Dynasty's on the line. Phil Jackson, he's like the Zen master of basketball coaches. He was super into mindfulness meditation, all that kind of practice on the basketball side. And he goes into the team and he said this : You have to be okay with losing this game . It's like, why would you on earth would you tell someone that? It's like you have to be okay. Like he what he's saying is you have to go into this being okay with the outcome, however comes , so that you can be fully present, fully engaged, you can fight with no fear. You can fight with no fear. A caveat, I would never tell a golfer that's standing over the putt, you know, on the eighteenth green of the masters to imagine this lipping out. Like I you know, you want to see success, you want to s you want to imagine the grid swing but as a preparation to position ourselves to receive flow in those biggest moments we have to make sure our identity is not on the line we're jumping ahead and I want to come back to fear, but I wanted that that you you just brought up something. Is there a pre event meditation mindfulness? Is there something we can be doing to help us relax into flow beforehand, like LeBron when he's on the airplane. This this is something that pil ots struggle with. You can you're often just in flow, whoa, I'm there. And that but then something can happen, whether it's nasty weather or suddenly gusty wind or you find yourself in the lee where you're bonked out of it. Sometimes it just intensifies the flow and it's great. But other times it's not like like you said, it's you can often be unrelaxed out of it. But you know, a stressor will kick you out of it. But I'm wondering if there's something pilots can do on launch or the drive up the hill or the hike up to launch where they can prepare to try to ent er in into flow before the flight, before they're actually just sudden suddenly the subconscious takes over 100%. And this is part of the skill work we do with our training, but our meditation practice we call it identity space and it' its's creating this space where you can go to feel that secure identity. And so the scenario switching exercise is is a great preparation practice. I do it all the time. I do it before a podcast with you. Okay. Imagine this going terrible. How would it be? Imagine this going great. How'd it be? So I can show up nothing to prove, nothing to hide. My identity's not on the line here. I'm showing up to serve. Um but But so that's a great great practice. Our identity space meditation is about creating a space where you can go to to feel the security of your identity, to know I have everything I need. I don't need anything from this performance. So now I can show up and engage with however the circumstances show up. Whatever variables happen, I'm ready to react to, to, to respond to , and engage. Nothing here is going to be an indictment on who I am. And then we build triggers on top of that. And so how can you access that space, you know, on a moment's notice. Um and so we so we activate all the senses around that so we can build build in triggers. But the key here the the key here and this is where I differ a little bit from the typical you know mental skills training is there's there's such an emphasis on mindfulness, right? Let's just breathe and calm and let emotions pass over you and and all this right and and that's good. It's a starting place. But you know , I don't know if any monks have become like world-class pilots. I just don't know if that's happened. You may know of some, but if you're really trying to like achieve, like make something happen, accomplish amazing things, lead somewhere, change something. You know, it's not just a mindfulness, a detachment from reality. It's how can I get to a secure identity so I can engage with reality from my best self. And so it's a mindfulness to start, okay, let's become aware of the sensations that are happening, the emotions that are happening, the fears , whatever might be there. And now it's can we flip that into a mindset upgrade? Okay, how can I come out of this meditation, this mindfulness, and now engage with the moment that's in front of me. Um that's how you're gonna make the most gains and most change. Yeah. You do a really good job of this in the book and you just explained it pretty well there, but just give us a quick difference between mindfulness and mindset , because it's important . Yeah. It's it's the buzzword. It's the big thing, right? And and again, it's a it's a starting place . Okay. I'm not against mindfulness. Yes, be aware. Pay attention to the sensations. We want to detach from maybe the feelings or emotions that could drive us unconsciously. Okay. Okay. Put a little separation between feeling and action. So we're not responding impulsively. Um but it's not just a removal from the world. It's not an escape from the world. Like the leaders I work with, like the ones who have done the most yoga retreats and mindfulness sessions, tend to be the most like insecure and stressed out in the biggest moment Interesting. I've worked with a I worked with a coach that came into the practice one day. We've had a we were in a tough stretch and like he came in so angry and so mad and he said it. He's this so is funny. He goes, I did yoga three times yesterday on our off day and I'm still pissed off . It's like yeah, because mindfulness isn't the end point, right? Okay, let's pay attention to that. And now let's rewire. Let's flip it okay let's let's re-engage can we re-engage with a secure mind a secure identity gives you somewhere to go with and if you're not if you're not activating that part then you know hey that's fine you can go you know sit on the couch and be enlightened in peace you know with your life but I usually work with like super ambitious high achievers who are trying to trying to do big things and push the envelope and so there has to be that mindset upgrade so you can re-engage. Let's dive into fear. I I think you'd be a perfect person to talk about and explain to my audience kind of the psychological architecture of fear. You've mentioned it a bunch of times. Every pilot, no matter w what they're trying to achieve, if they're a weekend warrior or they're a World Cup pilot and world class, has an intimate not even i they're intimately aware of fear. And we always talk about it as that fear is good. It keeps you alive. You don't want no fear. If you have no fear, it's really, really, really sketchy. It's the difference. What can be very hard to under stand consciously is is this a rational or an irrational fear? You know, is this just the barking between the ears that you should just ignore or is this wisdom? You know, is this because we all the the we talk about the little guy on your shoulder, you know, that you know, wait a minute, this might not be the day. Okay, is that just noise or is this maybe not the day? You know, it it's it's s can be very hard to decipher i is is this irrational or irrational on this day at this time? Are these conditions that I've I've got the skills for this . Talk about that. I mean fear is different, but I I imagine there's a ton of fear with your athletes and who you've coached. And again, it's just on that. It's just what if I miss? What what if I 'm Yeah, this is such a this is such an important topic. And and especially in your world where that discernment is is so much more important because of the physical danger that's that's present . And so you categorized it perfectly, I think, you know, rational fear versus irrational fear. Like like there is a rational fear. There's a real danger, you know, that exists. Like especially in your world hey I could get hurt I could die like this is a real thing and and what you said is right on like that's that's good it drives your focus and this is where I I admire your world so much and and I I wish had the courage to to get into it more because um because that fear is driving focus like it it brings so much of your attention to the present, to the here and now. Um and and that's a good thing, right? That's that's drawing out the best of you. And and I think that's we we jammed on this a little bit the other day, but like my first introduction to to flow states and all this was the the book the rise of super man and and they did a lot of study on mi high chicks and me high and all that but but their studies were around these action adventure athletes is like how are they breaking records and and advancing the sports and stuff so much faster than everyone else? And part of that was because of the fear component. Like it it required you to be so focused, so present, that amazing things were possible . On the flip side of that, there is an irrational fear there where this it's it's the insecurity, it's my identity is on the line, not just my life, but my ident ities on the line. And how this goes is gonna be indictment on who I am. And so it it is parsing out the difference between rational fear versus versus irrational fear. And I think you know, the rational fear, the risk, the dangers that are present, it's so valuable because it's going to force you to do your preparation , to, to improve your skills, to to not cut corners, right? To be diligent in your work. All that is super important and valuable. And so so that's driving your focus. Now what could take you out of the moment is that irrational fear. I have to prove something with my performance. I have to pro ve something through this race, uh, through this flight, or I'm gonna hide from being invalidated and I'm not gonna take that like jump in. Like I know I'm such an amateur, I feel I feel ashamed even sharing my action adventure stories with you. But like, you know, in my experience downhill skiing, like you have to have a little bit of speed to to make it work. And if you're if you're so cautious and and hiding and I'm afraid and and and I'm hesitant. You're gonna be even worse, right? And so like if if I'm if I'm showing up to protect myself, I'm not gonna be fully engaged, fully present. Like I'm not gonna give everything I have to it. Um and so yeah, in your world especially that that deciphering in my world it's it's more of the emotional fears, you know, not the physical danger, but the emotional and most of those ir irrational fears that are taking them out of the present moment. Neurologically what what what's happening there? And what what do you what do you tell your athletes when they're experiencing irrational emotional fear? I think I think I think it's the same, even though there is a real physical component of risk to flying, it's still emotional. Most of and most of it a lot of it is really irrational. You're thousands of feet off the ground. If something happens right now, you got plenty of time to deal with it. What what's what's what what do you when when someone's just bitten by too much fear that they got the you know, you you talked about putting a masters on the eighteenth green. Holy cow, after four days I mean I just my dad my dad was a golfer. I grew up golfing him so did my sister and I just he talked about it being the hardest sport in the world 'cause it's so much time. It's just five hours for four days. You gotta hold your shit together. And if you get the yips one time, you're done. You know how do you how do you control that neurologically on the 18th green at the masters it's like it's like golfers and tennis players are like just incredible like the physical toll that the games require , the the skill diversity that's required in both like the amount of shots you have to hit, just all the different skills you gotta have, you know, and then maybe the worst, like the hardest part of it is like you're out there by yourself. You know, golfers have caddies and a great caddy can help. Tennis is now allowing coaching a little bit, but for the most part, you're like you have no teammates to protect you or cover up for you like it's you on the course exposed to everybody and it's such wow physically mentally emotionally taxing both of those um both of those moments. And so you are looking for ways to to res et. And it's the mindfulness piece, knowing all right, I'm off center here. I've gotten knocked off balance. How do I recover? How do I recenter? And so a lot of the prep work we do is helping people understand quickly what is the most likely cause that got me knocked off balance so I can recover quickly under pressure. Um and then it's it's practicing the identity space, building the triggers on top of that so that we can reaccess those flow moments or position ourselves at least for those flow moments as quickly as we can. It's it's a lot of your preparation and and processes that that go into place. I mean I when I do workshops with basketball teams , you know, the first thing I ask them is like, How many of you are gonna hit at know you're gonna hit adversity during this season? Every hand goes up. How many of you know that overcoming adversity is gonna make you stronger. Every hand goes up. What are you doing to prepare to overcome the adversity ? Silence. It's like you're preparing your game plan, you're practicing your shooting, you're practicing you're rehearsing your plays. Why have you not rehearsed or preparing uh um preparing for when this thing goes bad, how to overcome adversity. And and that needs to be and this is where I I differ from a lot of, you know, mental skills training is that you know, we're not just going to imagine the perfect Olympic gold medal routine. Like we gotta prepare for what happens when this thing doesn't go like I expect it to. And am I secure enough in who I am that I can adapt and and engage with it? Um and then do I have the skills to be able to adjust on the fly and and re-engage. So a lot that's that's gotta be part of your preparation as much as the skills and strategy piece. We've been talking about there's there's a lot of science now behind visualization and I would imagine that's a huge thing for NBA players is just imagining just seeing over and over and over again that jump shot going in, going in, going in, going in. Just the technique and the coming off the end of your tips of your hands and the all that goes the all that foundational stuff that goes in. I'm imagine that's a big part of training. I mean it's something like you can get ninety percent done of the actual of actually doing it, just if you do it in your mind. But it sounds like you're talking about and and feel free to come in if that's not the case, but the it uh it also sounds like you're talking about it's just as important to visualize it not going well. Is it visualization or that's where the you're yeah for sure. And and what you're talking about is true. I think there's more and more studies coming out now of how like you know, injured ath letes can do visual la visualization techniques, that kind of stuff quicker. Right. Yeah, yeah, catch right back up. When I was with the when I was coaching with the in the NBA, you know the the virtual reality was just starting to like seep into to professional sports and we were using that to like how can we train athletes that aren't injured or that are injured and can't be on the court? Um you've probably experienced that in in simulators and and things like that where you can practice and and and get those reps. But yeah, there's also the other side of the visualization from an identity perspective. How can I untangle my identity, my self-perception, who I am , from the actual results and and and uh the outcomes of of my performance. And so that's a lot of the work I'm doing with again. I wouldn't go to a basketball player and say, hey, fourth quarter, you got two free throws. Every time you walk up to the line, just make sure, you know, do one rep of it missing and one rep of it making like no in that moment. Like I wanna see that thing go through. I wanna track it and yeah, you know, but in a preparation for that moment, I want to , you know, we have to you're not gonna be able to drop into the flow state if your identity is all on the line for this moment. I have to make this shot, all right? Or else I'll tell you a great story. This is a great illustration. I saw it real time. I was with watching my buddy, my buddy's 10-year-old son, youth basketball game, Saturday morning. Went to the game, sat with his family. We were all sitting underneath one of the baskets in the bleachers. So it was his dad, his mom, grandmother, grandfather, and two sisters. We're all sitting under the basket. The kid gets fouled. He's going to the free throw line. He's standing at the free throw line, waiting for it all to get set up and organized before the ref passes in the ball. You see him like shuffling his feet back and forth, like there's a little anxious energy in it . And I'm looking at his eyes. He looks up at the rim and then he looks down at us. He looks at the rim, looks down at us, shuffling back and forth. His eyes are going back and forth, between the rim and between us. Say, what do you think's happening in his brain right now? He doesn't understand this. But here's what he's saying. He looks at the rim. If I miss this shot , he looks at us. Will they still love me? Wow. If I miss this shot, will they still approve of me? Wow. If I miss this shot. Well they that's his identity is on the line in this moment, right? This was this was shown up in a 10-year-old kid, okay? But this is happening to us every day , all the time . Do they like me? Am I doing a good job? Right. He ends he gets the ball, he ends up missing the free throw. He crashes in there to get the rebound and put it back up. Everyone goes crazy . But like what is wired in his brain right now? Like, I have to work harder to win their approval. Wow. I have to perform better so they'll love me. And that's that's the when you talk about what's the irrational fear driving us in these moments , that's it. That's the core of it right there. What do you think about athletes who claim and I've got a few examples of this. I don't know Alex Honnold really well, but I don't know if you saw Free Solo. It's the scariest movie you've ever seen if you haven't seen it. The only thing that saves you is you know that they live and it's it's insane, right? I mean just free soloing L Cap . But they talk about it in that movie that he's got a different they studied his brain and he's got a different amygdala than the rest of us have. So he's he's got a different relationship with fear than most people have. I have a buddy that I used to I used to do a lot of hair boating, a lot of whitewater, really seriously dangerous whitewater kayaking. And one of the guys I did it with was a a Red Bull athlete or became a Red Bull athlete after he and I paddled together for years and he he claimed didn't experience fear. So for him it was all moves. Everything was just moves. It was just a series of making moves. And I saw him huck off stuff down in Mexico that there's no way you couldn't be scared to death. But he claimed he just didn't his heart rate wouldn't go up. It would just stay down at kind of 70, 80, almost resting heart rate. And I have a pilot friend who said he had to learn how to assess risk with paragliding because he didn't have fear and he knew that that was dangerous. Logically that he knew I I sh because I don't have fear I have to approach this differently than someone would would would with fear because that's guiding their decisions. What do you think about that? Is that is that is that possible or it is that something we should want to achieve? Is it is it even achievable and is it good ? Yeah. I would say yeah, I've watched the the documentary and read the stu studies about him and um his relationship to fear and I think that's a hundred percent true. And look, there are guys like I'm not saying that I can develop myself to become Steph Curry. Like he has a genetic makeup that I will never have and helps him access a place that I'll never be able to get to. Um I can develop myself further to get to the best that I could get to. And my relationship to fear has a lot to do with that, rational fear and irrational fear. And so for sure, there's like there's there's DNA constraints there there's genetic genetic you know factors at play and and each of us has our own unique wiring and all that um but um it's it's about how can we access our our best self. So can I improve my relationship to fear? What does that look like? I need to be more cognizant of the actual fear that's at place, or I need to be more okay with the risks that are happening so I can can I calm that fear. But we know either direction, like when fear is is is gripping us, rational fear or irrational fear, we're not gonna perform at our best. So we have to find ways to to relax in those moments. Back to flow state, yeah, there everybody who's listening, it we've all experienced it and you said it's you can come you can do it playing music, you can do it with your kid at the soccer field, you know, it's it it it comes sometimes in odd odd places and it's it it it's it's almost transcendent. I mean it it is the the feeling of it, you know, in Rise of Superman he describes it very well as as you do in your book. Yeah, I was just thinking about the last dance, you know, with with Michael Jordan and Pippen and the you know the the three peat, you know, the runs that some of these guys would go on and Jordan would just take over. And I mean the the the mindset that would be the the euphoria that he must have been in during those times. But what about when you lose it? You you talked about you can do these things in preparation to get into it before the game or you know the the the the whistle blows and you're and you're in it. What if you fall out of it? How what do you train them then ? Yeah, this is uh this is a an important thing because I I do believe this like maturity is not that you never get knocked off balance, but it's how quickly can you re-center after you've got knocked off balance. And so, you know, these guys who have these incredible runs over long periods of time, it may look on the outside like man, they were in flow for like six straight years. How is that possible? It's like what's more likely is they were able to re-center and reposition themselves , you know, on the fly in the moments. And a lot of times uh you you mentioned this earlier where like a change in circumstances will jolt your attention back in the present. Like maybe you start wandering. Maybe your mind goes on autopilot a little bit and and you you come back . Uh the I the one of the cool stories with with Steph Curry , it was like his breakout game in the NBA, and he dropped like 55 points in Madison Square Garden or something. It was a national televised game. Like it was the moment where he like landed on the scene and and came into public consciousness of of how great he was. I had a friend who was on the coaching staff for the Warriors. He told me that Steph actually missed the bus to the game that night. Whoa. It's like, oh, so you mean the perfect routine, the perfect process, all that ? Didn't line up and he had the best game of his career to that point. Like it's not how not that you never get knocked off balance that I did my routine perfectly all the time. It's how quickly can we recenter. How quickly can we get back to to the present to now and and refocus and um and so what you're calling out is is exactly right and and there are there are routines triggers we can build in place that um that can help us get back in the moment. You know, you you you mentioned this and I think this is a great easy practical way for people to start building kind of routines and triggers is take an activity that you just enjoy for the sake of the activity . Nothing to prove, nothing to hide, your identity's not on the line. Like you just love it. It could be like swimming in the pool. It's playing in the backyard with your kids. You know, it's grilling out on a Saturday , like what is that activity ? And then start building triggers around that activity . Triggers should activate all the senses. Play a song on repeat before, during, or after that activity . Have the same drink during the attach a smell or a scent to that activity. It takes some time, you know, 25, 30 times, do this over and over and over. But what you're doing is you're attached an extra sense to that physical activity your brain is making connection between between the two um quick story of application um um i live in phoenix, Arizona. It's warm and sunny all the time. We can be out by the pool all year. So I had an afternoon routine where I would sit by the pool, I would drink a smoothie in the sun . It was like the perfect relaxation moment for me. Nothing to prove, nothing to hide, no ambition, nothing on the line. I did that every day for like a month. Well, now when we were in Milwaukee , second night of a back-to-back, things weren't going like I wanted them to. I was starting to get frustrated. I was knocked off balance . Well, I can't go sit by the pool in Milwaukee in January. How do I rec enter? Well, I just get a smoothie, have my smoothie on the way to the game, my brain felt like I was sitting by the pool aga in. It helped me relax. I attached a trigger to that moment. And so a practice we do is helping people develop these triggers. So now in the moment, hey, I'm in the cockpit and I gotta access maybe there's a token in my pocket that makes me feel like or reminds me of throwing the ball in the backyard with my son. And that's a moment I feel really relaxed . And so we're trying to attach attach the senses to and build triggers around these moments that that put our mindset in the best possible state. I like that. That sounds a lot like EMDR. Not as much. Tell me. Well, it's it and I I I can never say it right. Uh A E M ment I mental it's basically retri uh the trigger thing is exactly the same. Mind is the pond right down the street here where I I got involved with this after a a a death of a really good friend of mine in an avalanche, a back my kind of main backcountry partner. And it's retraining your brain, especially it's it's especially useful with PTSD or any kind of trauma where you're trying to get your brain to map to something good and and working through something bad, but b often our brains just go to the horrible and and it's it's so it's it's kind of mapping to the sitting by the pool having a having a smoothie. And you're just you're just visualizing it and and then adding the trauma and visual go add you know but you're at the pond and it surrounded by flowers and the ducks. Mine's the pond down the street where there's you know, there's ducks and it's beautiful and all these kids play and the dogs run in the water and it's just it's the most peaceful place to be in the world and and nothing can hurt me there and nothing can be bad. And so and then and eventu ally that the death or whatever the trauma is, whatever the PTSD that your experiences is, is light. Still there. It's never gonna go away, but it's your your brain is remapped to trigger it as life . Yeah. Yeah, that's great. You're trying to you're trying to rewrite that narrative that your brain is circling around. The D is desenses it desens itation. I can never say that word. Desensitation. Yeah, yeah. I'm tracking with you. I'm tracking with you. And and a similar practice we do, like and and we do it through the identity fears, you know, through those insecurities is like trying to track where were that where was that introduced. You know, I mentioned that moment with my friend's son, you know, in his in his youth basketball game. It's like most of these these identity fears or insecurities that we we live with, some of them are wired into us genetically. A lot of it comes from just experiences we've had in our life, whether it was one big powerful moment that like introduced this fear to us or you know, death by a thousand paper cuts, you know, we're just we keep getting nagged by it. Um but trying to go back and relive relive those moments. Um, a lot of them happened in childhood. Like children are are great recorders, terrible interpreters. So, what happens in in childhood? We just ride it on our heart, w itr onite our mind, and we keep it forever. And we don't we need to go back and reprocess and be like, hey, what was actually happening in that moment? You know, my dad's insecurity caused him to react to me in this way, which introduced a insecurity in my own or a lie in my own mindset. I need to go back and rewire that from 10-year-old me. Remap it. Forgiving my dad for you know what he said or how he responded or how he acted um and and rewriting the narrative in my own mind that that's not true. That's a lie about who I am. What's the truth about about my identity and who I am? What role what role does ego play in in working with the these athletes in the NBA? I mean I I think again to the last dance , you know, just the brilliance of Phil Jackson dealing with these guys that are making they're ballers, right? And they're making so much money and they can have anything. And I mean Rodman, how do you deal with a guy like that? I mean it I I'm just wondering how I'm coming back to this word wisdom for some reason right now, you know, how do you how do you push past that and and and get to the real wisdom with these guys where you're you're I maybe you're trying to peel back that onion, that hard shell that they've had to develop to perform and be in the you know in the big leagues. And this could be any sport, this could be any elite thing, but how w where does that play? Where does ego play into mindset and you know, kind of mental stewardship ? Yeah, this is such an important topic because I think you know, ego is it gets misconstrued or misinterpreted or misunderstood. Um so I I'll address this from two two angles, one from like a coach's angle, 'cause I work with a lot of coaches too and and in the NBA like you are, you're working with a lot of big personalities and and like we've said, you know, they've got a lot on the line. You know, they're making a lot of money. They think very highly of themselves. And so you're trying to manage your way through this. And what I try to encourage coaches a lot is like, you know, these guys are insecure . You know, you think they're lazy, self ish a-holes, but really they're human beings with insecurities and fears that are trying to protect themselves. You know, some of the best coaches I've been around, one of the things they do great is they um protect the athletes from themselves those attacks on their insecurity. Yeah, yeah. They're giving them a shield where where they don't feel threatened at the core, you know, which is it's it's a pro move. The master move is now help them transform those insecurities so they're not blindly driven by them, which is the work I do. Um but but when a coach can see that and is like, okay, these guys aren't actively resisting me because they hate me, you know, when when a coach's identity is not on the line, he can see them for who they are and speak to the insecurities that might be under the surface. Um But but from an athlete standpoint, like this term ego, it got it got misinterpreted a little bit, you know. I don't want to throw complete shade on it, but like, you know, ego is the enemy became like the big thing. Like we gotta fight against the ego. And you know, we got you got your your mindset is made up of, you know, good wolf, bad wolf, like you gotta starve the bad wolf. And like you know it to me I look at the opposite approach like ego's not the enemy like ego is just information it's clues it's signals it's telling me what to pay attention to like I have desires, I have ambitions , um, there's things I want to happen, there's things I want to be true, and it's paying attention to that ego, like let that ego rage,. Like let's draw that out. And then get under the surface is like, why do I want this? Why do I want this so bad? Like, I have this desire to be to be first, to, to win the championship, to have a perfect score, to you know whatever it is that's that's you're needing like we we do an exercise in our programming it's like let those desires rage like don't don't stuff them down don,'t suppress 'em. Because all that's just information. It's clues, it's signals, it's it's stuff to pay attention to. What's going on in in me that I need to to pay attention to and work through. Um and so so it's fine, like let that out, let that you know, pursue your desires, pursue that. And now we pay attention to why do I want that? What's under the surface there? Is there is there an insecurity that I'm h oping that winning the championship, running the perfect race will quiet that insecurity in me . Or no, I just I want to see the best of myself. I want to get to the to the bleeding edge and and see how good i can possibly become um and so i don't like to you know ego is like i don't have an ego or often cast guy's too egotistical like yeah, let's let's bring it out. Tell me. Like, leave nothing on the table. I do this with with the teams I work with. Like, no hidden agendas here. Tell me, what do you want out of this season? You know, be honest about it. And they're gonna come up and say, I want to be MVP of the team or I want to be MVP of the league this year. Awesome. Thank you. Like, let's be honest about our desires and and what we want. And then we can get under there and underneath it and figure out the motive behind those desires. But uh ego ego's not something to to resist or punish or you know, try to suppress. I I think it's gotten a bad connotation in that pr in that sense. Interesting. Talk about f failure and and in a sense in in in our world in the flying world accidents are a big deal. You know there's but there's two there main ones. There's there's physical, you know, back breaking, leg breaking. There's you know there's there's bad physical injury, or not so bad, you know, bad rolled angle ankle or something, you know, some common sprained ankle like in the MBA. Um, but there's also we talk about fear injuries, so getting really freaked out and miraculously pulling it off. You know, for for some pilots, that could just be having a really bad collapse and not knowing what to do with it and then it comes out, you know uh just the wing does it's what it's supposed to do and you're not really in control and that can but that can be really scary and fear injuries can set you back i in this sport is as badly or worse than a than an actual physical accident. And often they're combined. You can often have a physical accident that you recover from and you're dying to get back into flying, and you get back in the air, and you realize you're completely freaked out. You're just really, really scared. The irrational fear is overwhelming. We've we've talked a lot over the years in the show about getting over this. I'd like to just g hear your perspective because I imagine there's a ton of pressure on the folks you work with. When they're hurt, the world's passing you by. You know, there's the guy next to you on the the uh on the seat is is more than happy to take your place. Um especially MBA I mean or sorry the NFL. I mean those guys are always getting hurt. Talk about that. Where where where's the role in all of this with recovery, both physical and mental? Yeah. That's that's a great question and great application. When you first got going, I started thinking of Simone Biles from the Olympics. Um exactly perfect example got the yips in the middle of the Olympics and like and pulled out and is like and what a what a hard place to be because something that nobody can really understand unless you've been there, right? Like what do you got the yips? Like yeah come on this is for you you the the narratives were so brutal right it's like this is for your country that everyone's counting on you. Like for the team. Get out there and do it. Brutal. Oh, it was just brutal. Like brutal attacks, right? And then and then seeing her work through that and then like so she she''ss g gottaotta deal with A , I can't perform like I used to, like I've gotten knocked off balance . B I'm getting attacked just and now if if my identity 's in this person a or you know my my status as an Olympian and team USA and gold medalist and all this, like, and now I'm getting attacked on that too like what a just the the confluence of of of all that come together just brutal thing to work through and then see her work her way back into performing again and and process through that. But but absolutely like you know, both sides of the trauma there. Okay, how do I heal from injury? Um you hear about NBA players all the time, torn Achilles, torn ACL, whatever, long injuries come back and like, I have to learn to trust it again. Yeah. It's like that process of just trusting your body again, trusting your process, trusting your skills again, is is a long road to recover y. And then the identity part of that is like, you know, the these guys who who who are out for long periods of time, you just the loneliness they feel, especially in a team setting, where they're not on the court anymore, they're not in practice anymore. Maybe they're flying and and going on road trips with the team, but they're not really like engaged in the fight. And so how do they really feel a part of all that? And and that's you know, that's that's the identity work we talked about all the time. You know, if you place your identity around anything that can be gained or lost, you're setting yourself up for crisis. So if you've placed your identity on um your belonging on the team or in the community , in the flying community, whatever, if you place your identity on that, what happens when it gets taken away? Who are you? If you place your identity on the results, what happens when you can't perform like you used to or up to the standards that you want. What happens when that gets to what happens when you fail? Like all right, Simone Biles, if you've placed your identity in being team USA gold medalist Olympian , and now I can't perform like I once could . Now who am I? What I see is in in Simone from Outside Observer is okay here's someone with a a secure identity because she could process through that live with the mis understanding the misjudgment the disappointment that other people felt, but persist through that. Have the resilience to keep going, to get back on the beam, to get back on the floor and and and get herself back into into competition. But that's that's the core work, right? That's the that's the identity work. Without the secure identity, you're not going to be able to have the resilience you need to get through those mom ents. God, you know, I'm thinking about the poster child for your work. Did you watch the much of the winter Olympics this year? Yeah. How about Alyssa Lou, the ice skater? I don't know much about figure sk ating. I used to know Nancy Kerrigan back in the day and I was actually standing feet from Nancy Kerrigan when she got hit, you know, the whole thing I've coming off the ice and with Tanya Harding's boyfriend all that all that craziness but but so my but my daughter got really into watching ice skating this winter and Alyssa that's her name right do I have that right Alyssa Lou she she got the gold but she that was such a cool story and it's exactly what you're talking about. I mean, she quit the sport whatever it was eighteen months ago or two years ago when she was sixteen 'cause the pressure and everybody just constantly telling her what to do and when to train and when to come and the whole thing and her whole identity is completely wrapped up in figure skating and she just said, I'm out. I'm done. I'm gonna go hang out with my friends. I'm gonna party. I'm gonna have a nice time. I need something else in my life. And and then came back and crushed it and you know and the other two skaters, the other girl and the and the I I wish I would have written this down, the you know, the the the gurus uh the the the guy skater the who was supposed to win everything and the and the pressure just crushed him and and he had yeah the clay the quad god exactly yeah and and uh Lyssa but just her her final skate you could just tell you can see authenticity and you can feel authenticity and just you know watching it on NBC you're going this girl's just loving this she's having so much fun and because she she kept saying I don't care about the results, I don't I don't care where I place, I'm just here to have fun. And yeah, a lot of people say that, but but how many how often do you see people live it? And you could tell she would just and you could tell she wasn't gonna make a mistake because she was just having one. She's having so much fun and and smiling and even you could tell that she had lived losing. She had lived the experience of not doing well and she'd visualized it and she'd done all the work like you're talking about and doesn't matter. I I'm not scared of that. That doesn't define me. I don't care if I win or lose. And then of course she's gonna win. It was so awesome. I just was she's the living example of what you're trying to teach, right? Am I right? Is that I got chill I got chills you just reliving that because I I had the same experience watching her and like and this is the beauty of of flow state right and and being able to compete from this from this mindset like it did come across with so much joy like like figure skating is just a beautiful sport in itself but the way she did it like had so much personality and like you said authenticity and it just it looked different it felt different than everybody else there and it's it she did and I think what I think her you know, the other part of that was like when they announced the the results at the end, like she was just as excited for the girl who got second, I think it was her first medal of the Olympics or something. Like, she was so thrilled for her. Like, that's someone who's not up there driven by ego. Like, she has nothing to prove, nothing to hide. I'm not here for my own validation. I'm here to just express the best of who I am. I'm just here. I'm in the Olympics. I've already won. I'm just here. I'm doing it. This is it is incredible. You could just feel that though. It wasn't it wasn't this verbal, you know, people always say that there there's always going to be the cliches, but she was living it and everybody knew it. Oh, so cool. Living it. Living it. It's it to me, to me, this is like the perfect encapsulation of like what is flow state. And this is kind of like the the climax or the the conclusion we come to in the book. I'll give it away here. But it's it's the perfect the perfect description for me is relaxed intensity. And and this this brings together everything we've just talked about, but like it's an intensity of focus, right? It's not a furrowed eyebrow, stressed out state, like I, you know, I I I'm grasping at focus, but it's something that drives your attention to the moment, to the present. In your world, the the natural fear does that. Like it brings you fully present into the moment . But then there's a relaxed presence. I have nothing to prove, I have nothing to hide. My identity is not on the line. I can just show up and be. And now I can cooperate with what unfolds in front of me. Like the the race or the flight doesn't go like I expected , but I have nothing to prove, nothing to hide. It's okay. I can cooperate. I can adjust. I can adapt. And because my intent, my focus is all here, like , you know, whatever conditions happen that that knock me off course, my brain doesn't go, oh no, they're gonna think I'm so bad. Oh no, oh man, they're gonna think I'm I don't belong here anymore. Oh my, performance isn't. No, my brain doesn't do that. Because I have nothing to prove, nothing to hide. My identity is not on the line. I just re-engage. Oh, new variable, new circumstance. How can I adapt?? Right And I just go, I just go all that. And that's I think that's what Alyssa did. Like, she, I've got nothing to prove, nothing to hide. I'm not here for validation. I'm just gonna express the best of what I got. Um, that's what LeBron James did when he showed up in Boston. He said, I have nothing to prove, nothing to hide. Just be fully present, fully engaged. I'm gonna go for it. Another another great Olympic story. Sean White , might have been 2018, if I got the right year . But heading into the winter Olympics and the the poster child for team USA for the winter Olympics, right? Everything's about Sean White. All the ads, all the marketing for the Olympics, NBC, come watch us, you're gonna see Sean White make history. He hadn't even made the Olympic team yet. He's still going through the trials. And he's at the he's got like three races in or three runs in the finals of the trials and first one he drops into the half pipe and he said he said I was so amped up my legs just gave out and he fell . So he takes the lift back up to the top. And second one he drops in and everything's going perfect. Great run, great run. The last one, for whatever reason, he changed the technique or something and he'll falling. So now he's on his third and final one. He's still gotta qualify. Like and everyone's expecting him to be the Olympics and he hasn't qualified yet. So he's he's at the top and he's discussing with his coach. He's like, what's the plan? What do we do? How do we get there? How do we get there? And then he hears the the race announcement like Sean White, go, go, go, go. And he's like, I don't have a plan. I don't know. And the coach is like , just go for it . And he dropped in, kind of like Steph Curry, like I missed the bus. Like, I have no time to really like overthink this. I just dropped in and do it. Just do it with a perfect score. It was only like the second perfect score they'd ever handed out. But he said he's like there's this amazing amazing things happen when it's like, you know, you won it, but you gotta have this little like I don't care what happens. Ye ah. Like LeBron James, you gotta have a little bit of this. I feel nothing . Like Alyssa Lou, you gotta have a little bit of this . I'm not here to win gold. I'm just here to escape my best. Like, there's this little like, I don't I don't care about the results, and then great results end up happening because you can get into that that state. I've got nothing to prove, I've got nothing to hide. Be fully present, fully engaged . That's to me flow state. Relaxed intensity . place to end, but I I gotta ask you one more thing because you you do this in the book and you do it very eloquently. You've worked with all these athletes, you know, you've done all this mind set training and mindfulness training and mental training and getting over these hurdles and operating under pressure. What has it taught you about real life? You know, you mentioned you can use flow state to be a better dad, better husb and. Uh -huh. What what has it taught you about just the day-to-day and and operating? What does it taught you about being a better human? Hmm . Thank you for asking it . Cause to me this is this is like why it all is so powerful. It's like what we can learn in these peak experiences standing on the mountaintop , standing at the starting line , you know standing in the center court in the big arena . We can have these peak experiences every day in the smallest moments . Um I think I think we can get into trap where um and a lot of professional athletes get this. When you when you've had these like adrenaline highs, these these really massive moments , it can be easy to get addicted to that and like keep chasing that and pursuing that. And the real the real life-changing moment is when you can have that same exper ience on a date with your wife. You know, at home with your kids . Watch I was just at the park the other night, like watching these kids play, you know, little league baseball . And like can I still have that same joy, that same appreciation to be fully present, to be fully engaged. I have nothing to prove, I have nothing to eye. My identity is not wrapped up in my son's you know batting average like in in t ball like like but I can just be there and and and enjoy like can that be a peak experience in life just like whatever you experience on race day um and and that is the work we we find it um we we do the work in those big mountain top experiences , but once you learn you know what it's like there, then peeling back the layer and seeing that in the smallest moments, and and it translates both ways . You start seeing it in the small moments, the little moments were oh man. My reaction there to my wife was a little bit out of I was trying to prove my worth. I felt an attack on my identity. Like I start noticing it in the very, very small, minute, silly details of life. It starts translating to even those bigger mom ents. Um but it is to me like this pursuit of flow state this pursuit of positioning ourselves for flow state like that is life's experience. Like that is life's like ultimate goal. How can I position myself every day so today can be a peak experience? I'm not, I have nothing to prove, I have nothing to hide. I'm not distracted or or discouraged by the past. I'm not insecurely fantasizing about the future. I'm future focused. I'm present engaged . I'm not separating myself from life's challenges. I'm not removing myself from the real work that needs to be done , not just being mindful, but I'm getting that mindset upgrade. I'm re-engaging with life. I'm re-engaging with the present circumstances so I can make an impact. I can make an impact on my family, I can make an impact on my community, I can make the world around me a little bit better. Um, but I can only do that if I'm showing up from my best self, not distracted by fears, you're rational, irrational, um , not not driven by insecurities , but show up from a secure identity and and make a make a real impact on the world around me . Brett, great. Awesome stuff. The book Catching Confetti is fantastic. All you listening, make sure you grab it. It's a it's an it's a hell of a read. It's a lot of fun. And very different from a lot of I mean I guess you would classify it as a self help book. I don't know that it maybe has a negative connotation, but it you know, it gives you it it's a template, like you said, it gives you it gives you something to work on. And I was it was fantastic to connect on this and I think my audience is really gonna jive with a lot of the things you're you're talking about. It's cool to see all the all the fibers come together. But Brett, appreciate you man. Thanks a lot. Thanks for the book and thanks for your contribu tions and and thanks for coming on the show. I appreciate you . Yeah, thanks for having me. It's really awesome conversation. Thanks for inviting an outsider into your to your world and conversation love the work you're doing admire the risks you all take every day and and how it's changing you and impacting you so I have a lot to learn myself but inspired by what you're doing. So thanks for letting me be a part of it. Thank you. Appreciate it. See you out there someday. If you find the cloud-based mayhem valuable, you can support it in a lot of different ways. All of them incredibly important to keep this show going. You can give us a rating on whatever platform you listen to. You can blog about it on your website or share it on social media. You can talk about it on the wave to launch with your friends. I know a lot of good conversations have happened that way, and of course you can support the show financially. 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